Riddle me this: at what point do you declare a constantly evolving product like an MMO to be "done" and "ready for sale"?
The magical question to which the answer isn't when "they start taking money."
Minecraft cost money to "test" basically from the alpha stages. The difference is the price went up the further it went into development. As far as I can tell there was no rhyme or reason to their choice of date to say it's alive other than to just finally say it is.
You can argue semantics all you want...
But when it comes down to it this is pretty standard in many aspecs of the world.
One thing you have to understand is that Super Mario is no more comparable to Neverwinter than my shoe is comparable to my car. As video games become more and more complex the issues within them have become harder and harder to maintain. We have actually reached the point where consoles basically require internet access because games are consistently released with glitches in them.
That's not because developers are becoming lazy or aren't testing their content...
It's because glitches and the complexity of the game are intertwined.
A single high school programmer can create a glitch free super mario using java within a month or so because while high tech in that time period the controls were rudimentary at best. MMO's require hundreds of staff members to create this quality content and the amount of issues which this level of complexity creates can't be fathomed by anybody who has never tried to program software.
With complexity comes bugs. Plain and simple. And we have reached the precipice where content has become so complex it is a virtual impossibility to avoid releasing with bugs. The line has to get drawn at some point and thus soft launches have become standard practice.
"Buy at your own risk" may not be what you like...
But it's not something consumer rights will step in on unless companies start truly scamming players rather than letting players decide whether they wish to pay for incomplete products.
Riddle me this: at what point do you declare a constantly evolving product like an MMO to be "done" and "ready for sale"?
When cash begins changing hands between users and company.
When they fail at this and succumb to taking money before hand, they tie their hands on available options when it comes to fixing situations that arise due to the product being unfinished. Decisions also get made based on how much money is coming in as well. No mass bans or wipes due to large exploits? Why? Because that money aint gonna make itself. Escorting paying users out the door isnt going to solve the bottom line issue.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited June 2013
The thing that bugs me about these "soft launch" arguments is that the devs opened the game up to everyone for free... with the option of paying money for stuff now. At no point, however, were players forced to dish out real money.
Yes, it is not the ideal way to go about developing a game, especially where major issue can, (and have), appeared, but it is far from being a scam or unethical.
As far as I'm concerned, it's no different than if a movie studio offered a free screening of an unfinished movie - you could get in for free, but they still charged you for popcorn and soda...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Sooner or later consumer protection is gonna wade in. Too much cash moving.
no they wont....there are still Gold by the foot places.....QVC on TV, Used Car sales men......Rent to own.....this is just another shady business practice same as those, and it will be profitable for along time to come because there is a suck born every minute.
Best I can recommend and to not support any games like that at all.
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shalicefoxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I hope this doesn't come off as mean or me sounding like a jerk, but I will never understand why when someone plays and ends up, for whatever reason, not liking a MMO or some other type of game they have to come to the forums of said game like they are on a mission to warn the masses, who are under attack by the evil corporation and their evil plans?
Why can't people just simple go, "tried it, didn't like it, for all you staying, best of luck to ya!"
Terrible article. Seems like any Tom <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and Harry can write a blog nowadays.
There is no scam about a soft launch, or live beta (as in NW) as long as it's announced clearly. Spending money is purely optional, fully under the understanding that the game is still in a beta (incomplete) phase. As long as the buyers get to keep all of their goodies (if they werent already used) in beta, than legally and ethically I see no problem with it at ALL. Furthermore they are footing the bill to allow others to play the game at no charge. This large pool of players grants them data a smaller pool can not, and allots them time to get the kinks (bugs/exploits/server issues) worked out to a level that's satisfactory to them. This makes for a better game experience than would have been possible in a much shorter period of time.
Playing and paying for a game is the players choice.
"Buy at your own risk" may not be what you like...
But it's not something consumer rights will step in on unless companies start truly scamming players rather than letting players decide whether they wish to pay for incomplete products.
In American law you might be correct, but in many European countries this is flat out wrong. Their consumer protection will step in on behalf of the user and allow them to get their money back simply due to the user declaring the product not fit for use. I noticed the available options for buying stuff round these parts go through PayPal, even though the user doesnt need an account - and why would that be - because PayPal makes it harder to do a chargeback then say a credit card / debit card issuer in a European country would - so Im pretty sure people at PW/Cryptic understand this.
There is no definitive line that counts as "truly scamming users" - its a huge gray area, where the consumer has one expectation and the result does not match that expectation - and all they have to do legally is show that their expectation was reasonably derived from ads either outside, or inside, the game itself.
Terrible article. Seems like any Tom <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and Harry can write a blog nowadays.
There is no scam about a soft launch, or live beta (as in NW) as long as it's announced clearly. Spending money is purely optional, fully under the understanding that the game is still in a beta phase. As long as the buyers get to keep all of their goodies (if they werent already used) in beta, than legally and ethically I see no problem with it all ALL.
Playing and paying for a game is the players choice.
Any business that sells anything on the planet could use that excuse if it were viable legally, which it is not. You chose to pay for those Firestone tires, too bad they blew out on you....
You will find that consumer protection law is far less rigid than simple justification through proclaiming "it was their choice to pay"
As far as a softlaunch is concerned, the sad fact is that companies will continue to do it as long as there are people willing to pay for unfinished products.
The producers (not the devs) know that people will pay to play the game when it isn't quite polished.
Why shouldn't they go with it if the market will bear it? No one forces people to spend money on the games.
This, exactly. I honestly have no problem with this trend at all, as long as it's clear up front you ARE in a "Beta" or "soft launch" situation. I like being able to "test drive" a new game (or any game) for free. I've been burned recently on a couple games which didn't have any kind of official Beta and yet were OBVIOUSLY unfinished when released (which may be what the author of the fine article is referring to), but I've made the decision to no longer pay for games that I cannot try for free first, even if I have to wait until a "free weekend" months later to do so.
The only thing I can recommend is companies have to staff enough CS for their clients. Now thats tough with f2p because many are true f2p people who say where are the bows vs someone who purchased something that doesn't function. Some people who have actually paid something expect to get a higher level of service. Thats why I like a subscription option as it can be part of the package. Like I said I'm having fun.:cool:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
Any business that sells anything on the planet could use that excuse if it were viable legally, which it is not. You chose to pay for those Firestone tires, too bad they blew out on you....
You will find that consumer protection law is far less rigid than simple justification through proclaiming "it was their choice to pay"
As far as a softlaunch is concerned, the sad fact is that companies will continue to do it as long as there are people willing to pay for unfinished products.
That's different - a blown out tire could cost the user additional money or even cause injury. There is no such risk to a player of NW, and you're not required to pay anything up front.
I suppose a better analogy would be if someone was offering free used tires, but made you sign a waver stating that their condition is unknown and that they are not liable if they blew out on you.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
There is no definitive line that counts as "truly scamming users" - its a huge gray area, where the consumer has one expectation and the result does not match that expectation - and all they have to do legally is show that their expectation was reasonably derived from ads either outside, or inside, the game itself.
Close, but not really.
Expectation is just this, expectation. Customer can say he was expecting space ships and company didn't delivered.
Its all about advertising, description of the product and what we've got. You know, there is a reason why all the people who issued chargebacks had to lie, the product was delivered as advertised, its THEM expecting god knows what and being butthurt their dreams didn't come true. I have seen that scenario waaaaay to many times over the past years and the only games that were promising golden mountains and didn't delivered were ABP, Warhammer:AoR(was fun anyway thou), recent Colonial Marine and sad excuse of sandbox MMO called Darkfall. In all other cases it was uninformed, self deluded customers who never once read product description before happily throwing money at companies.
Any business that sells anything on the planet could use that excuse if it were viable legally, which it is not. You chose to pay for those Firestone tires, too bad they blew out on you....
You will find that consumer protection law is far less rigid than simple justification through proclaiming "it was their choice to pay"
As far as a softlaunch is concerned, the sad fact is that companies will continue to do it as long as there are people willing to pay for unfinished products.
People are willing to buy an unfinished product because theywant to for various reasons. To support the staff developing the game is a big one. No staff equals no game. You are only entitled to what you are purchasing at the time of purchase... whatever is in the contract.
Close, but not really.
Expectation is just this, expectation. Customer can say he was expecting space ships and company didn't delivered.
Its all about advertising, description of the product and what we've got. You know, there is a reason why all the people who issued chargebacks had to lie, the product was delivered as advertised, its THEM expecting god knows what and being butthurt their dreams didn't come true. I have seen that scenario waaaaay to many times over the past years and the only games that were promising golden mountains and didn't delivered were ABP, Warhammer:AoR(was fun anyway thou), recent Colonial Marine and sad excuse of sandbox MMO called Darkfall. In all other cases it was uninformed, self deluded customers who never once read product description before happily throwing money at companies.
Try right on the nail. Expectation is what many countries are basing their consumer protection laws on. While those laws do not declare selling unfinished products illegal, they do liberally allow for users to get their money back when what they reasonably expected was not delivered, and reasonable expectation is not hard to prove.
And yes, there is always a subset of players who will happily throw money at companies who launch unfinished products, which is why I stated the sad fact is as long as those players exist, companies will continue to soft launch. Consumer protection laws are just allowing those users to take that money back when what they were promised and what they got dont add up.
People are willing to buy an unfinished product because theywant to for various reasons. To support the staff developing the game is a big one. No staff equals no game.
You are only entitled to what you are purchasing at the time of purchase... whatever is in the contract.
Incorrect/Incomplete, as you are only highlighting the part that supports your stance. Consumers in many markets have the ability to get their money back within 30 days - due to the way the consumer protection laws work in their country. I see this in motion on a daily basis.
This is why many consumers will fork over money for head start packs to play a game - knowing full well they can charge that back when and if they find multiple things that were advertised that are not adding up to what was delivered.
Paying being optional is irrelevant as even after they call this launch a launch it will still be optional.
It's no excuse.
Actually in this case is. Being free to play you don't pay for the game, you pay for particular service or item from item shop. That pretty much means you don't have much right to complain on the state of the product "the game" because its not what you pay for. You pay for mount, bag, lottery ticket(box key), but you don't pay for the game. And since cash shop delivers instantly whatever you have chosen you can't complain about that as well. As I've said, in F2P game case you either have to lie to your CC/paypal or whatever you used to to get money back.
That's different - a blown out tire could cost the user additional money or even cause injury. There is no such risk to a player of NW, and you're not required to pay anything up front.
The laws do not distinguish between situations, only that what was promised and what was delivered need to add up.
I suppose a better analogy would be if someone was offering free used tires, but made you sign a waver stating that their condition is unknown and that they are not liable if they blew out on you.
Not accurate at all, because when people BUY things (not when playing the free game) they must be delivered what was reasonably expected.
Actually in this case is. Being free to play you don't pay for the game, you pay for particular service or item from item shop. That pretty much means you don't have much right to complain on the state of the product "the game" because its not what you pay for. You pay for mount, bag, lottery ticket(box key), but you don't pay for the game. And since cash shop delivers instantly whatever you have chosen you can't complain about that as well. As I've said, in F2P game case you either have to lie to your CC/paypal or whatever you used to to get money back.
Prob should read up on European consumer protection law.
If what you were saying is true, that flimsy excuse could be used for ANYTHING, as no one is REQUIRED to pay for anything at all really.
You are right that you do not pay for the game, you pay for cash shop items, and when what was delivered is not what was promised on that front, consumer protection in many countries allows for the user to instantly be made whole on the issue.
Actually in this case is. Being free to play you don't pay for the game, you pay for particular service or item from item shop. That pretty much means you don't have much right to complain on the state of the product "the game" because its not what you pay for. You pay for mount, bag, lottery ticket(box key), but you don't pay for the game. And since cash shop delivers instantly whatever you have chosen you can't complain about that as well. As I've said, in F2P game case you either have to lie to your CC/paypal or whatever you used to to get money back.
I suppose I should have clarified.
The cash shop being optional is not an excuse to term this a beta or a "soft launch" as again, when they decide to call this what it is (a launched game) it will still be optional.
Prob should read up on European consumer protection law.
If what you were saying is true, that flimsy excuse could be used for ANYTHING, as no one is REQUIRED to pay for anything at all really.
You are right that you do not pay for the game, you pay for cash shop items, and when what was delivered is not what was promised on that front, consumer protection in many countries allows for the user to instantly be made whole on the issue.
Thats exactly what I'm talking about. Don't forget the part where cash shop instantly delivers whatever you wanted, exactly as described in the shop. Just go browse this forum, you'll find numerous threads made by people who've made chargebacks and had to lie in the reasons to get chargeback issued because technically they were delivered exactly what they wanted and what they would expect to get.
Thats exactly what I'm talking about. Don't forget the part where cash shop instantly delivers whatever you wanted, exactly as described in the shop. Just go browse this forum, you'll find numerous threads made by people who've made chargebacks and had to lie in the reasons to get chargeback issued because technically they were delivered exactly what they wanted and what they would expect to get.
Citations needed. Had to lie? You do realize investigations occur when that request is made right? How did those people get their chargebacks then?
Yet people keep falling for these "scams". Sadly yes the whole mmo gaming industry is evolving into a money grab scheme. The thing is it's not 100% the developer's fault, the cost of operating an MMO is now 30 fold compared to say Everquest in 1996. Everquest the first truly massive 3D mmo costing only a "mere" 3 million dollar to develop, even with a mere 500K user it was considered a massive success and proves that subscription based games can work. Nowadays to develop an AAA quality game cost at least 50 to 100 million dollars. The stakes are high, failure pretty much leads to bankruptcy. The investors wants their investment returns fast. Beta used to be added to a game that is truly still in development and beta testers are truly people who is committed to giving feed back to the game and helping make it better. Nowadays everyone slaps beta into their products months or even years after they begin to accept payments. So I don't subscribe to the beta label non-sense, once you start charging money then the game is NOT in beta but is released as a product.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited June 2013
I don't think I grasp this "reasonable expectation" clause for these consumer protection laws. For instance, if a lockbox key simply *allows* you to open a lockbox, but it in and of itself provides no other function, then as long as you can open a lockbox using said key, is that "reasonable"? Going further, if the lockbox states that it provides one of items A, B, C, and D, where A is most desirable and D is least, if the player opens the box and receives an item they didn't *expect* to get, (namely the most desirable item), is it their right to demand a refund?
I understand the intent of these laws, but just as a company can word things to act in their favor, so can players...
Now, if you paid for 10 keys but only received 8, or if the keys were advertised as opening lockboxes, but didn't, then I can understand wanting a refund...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
The article is spot on, I'm waiting for well formed arguments. But I fear it's just going to be more NW fanboys with their blinders on
I'll respond here with the "Almost" exact words I responded there.
MMO's are a complicated beasts and quite literally every single MMO launch releases with crippling issues. Whether it be bugs, exploits, server stability or balance issues. Almost everyone one and that is because try as you might, the beta test and testers do a horrible part and there isn't enough of them.
Now take Neverwinter...when the game launches in a few weeks just imagine how awesome the game became and how much more stable it is....ALL THANKS to people paying to play.
In conclusion that article is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and reeks of elitism but then again what do you expect from the status quo. I'd love to see more games take the PWI approach and charge for beta...imagine how awesome games like Elder Scrolls Online or Everquest Next would be if you could pay real money to play. But then again F2P titples have been pushing the developmental innovation engine for years now with their business models that to this day still catch a lot of flak from "insiders".
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
I think the PWE games are great I love to see the ups ad downs of the development.
DRAMA is fun!
I do not regret a single penny ive spent on it. because I know it will probably be here for a long time cause pwe has a rep for keeping games around even if they aren't the big game. unlike some game companies in COX I had 9000 paragon points when they declared they were closing it. So glitchy or not NWO is here playable has good rp and its probably not closing down for no reason. Heck im also really hoping they add some of the cool stuff they put in NWO and STO into CO.
The only downside I see with pwe games is they seem to have the largest number of people on the games that...seem..to HATE the games...as if some one had them strapped to chairs and was forcing them to play.... I figure people just like to whine a lot if people really disliked these games and really thought there was better games elseware you would think that is where they would be.
I figure when the next big free to play game comes out they will move to that one..and leave us with the standarf when are <enter weak class here) getting love .... and nerf <enter OP class here> trolls who basically love the game and just want it better.
One month, they suddenly started hosting a lot of discount sales. Like a LOT of really good and profitable discount sales. After about 2 months of this, they suddenly announced that Metal Asault wasn't profitable enough for them(even with their pathetically low amount of staff to pay) and canceled the game.
About one year of uptime to build up userbase and money. A lot of them were people who stuck through the insane economy fluctuations caused by swarms of hackers. They only refunded money spent on the game from 2 months before the game closed, so anything bought before then was just gone. Even if you got a refund, it was for Aeria Points. They still made all that money.
The idea of a random prize box comes from Asia where there's an inherent lack of or weak consumer protection laws and anti-gambling laws. In fact the Japanese government has recently outlawed these so called "mystery" bag because they are considered gambling. Now all these companies are moving to the western market.
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2013
like any product people can choose to do it or not. I bought the packs cause I want to support the game. I bought some lifetime on other game cause I want to support it. I didn't buy some games because I don't support it. We have to vote with our wallet. People are willing to pay (companies learn that early with early beta access key going on eBay for other games)
now console game are doing it. They have their DLC done at launch AND put on the disk and charge you to unlock what you already have on the disc.
Comments
The magical question to which the answer isn't when "they start taking money."
Minecraft cost money to "test" basically from the alpha stages. The difference is the price went up the further it went into development. As far as I can tell there was no rhyme or reason to their choice of date to say it's alive other than to just finally say it is.
You can argue semantics all you want...
But when it comes down to it this is pretty standard in many aspecs of the world.
One thing you have to understand is that Super Mario is no more comparable to Neverwinter than my shoe is comparable to my car. As video games become more and more complex the issues within them have become harder and harder to maintain. We have actually reached the point where consoles basically require internet access because games are consistently released with glitches in them.
That's not because developers are becoming lazy or aren't testing their content...
It's because glitches and the complexity of the game are intertwined.
A single high school programmer can create a glitch free super mario using java within a month or so because while high tech in that time period the controls were rudimentary at best. MMO's require hundreds of staff members to create this quality content and the amount of issues which this level of complexity creates can't be fathomed by anybody who has never tried to program software.
With complexity comes bugs. Plain and simple. And we have reached the precipice where content has become so complex it is a virtual impossibility to avoid releasing with bugs. The line has to get drawn at some point and thus soft launches have become standard practice.
"Buy at your own risk" may not be what you like...
But it's not something consumer rights will step in on unless companies start truly scamming players rather than letting players decide whether they wish to pay for incomplete products.
When cash begins changing hands between users and company.
When they fail at this and succumb to taking money before hand, they tie their hands on available options when it comes to fixing situations that arise due to the product being unfinished. Decisions also get made based on how much money is coming in as well. No mass bans or wipes due to large exploits? Why? Because that money aint gonna make itself. Escorting paying users out the door isnt going to solve the bottom line issue.
Yes, it is not the ideal way to go about developing a game, especially where major issue can, (and have), appeared, but it is far from being a scam or unethical.
As far as I'm concerned, it's no different than if a movie studio offered a free screening of an unfinished movie - you could get in for free, but they still charged you for popcorn and soda...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
no they wont....there are still Gold by the foot places.....QVC on TV, Used Car sales men......Rent to own.....this is just another shady business practice same as those, and it will be profitable for along time to come because there is a suck born every minute.
Best I can recommend and to not support any games like that at all.
Why can't people just simple go, "tried it, didn't like it, for all you staying, best of luck to ya!"
There is no scam about a soft launch, or live beta (as in NW) as long as it's announced clearly. Spending money is purely optional, fully under the understanding that the game is still in a beta (incomplete) phase. As long as the buyers get to keep all of their goodies (if they werent already used) in beta, than legally and ethically I see no problem with it at ALL. Furthermore they are footing the bill to allow others to play the game at no charge. This large pool of players grants them data a smaller pool can not, and allots them time to get the kinks (bugs/exploits/server issues) worked out to a level that's satisfactory to them. This makes for a better game experience than would have been possible in a much shorter period of time.
Playing and paying for a game is the players choice.
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In American law you might be correct, but in many European countries this is flat out wrong. Their consumer protection will step in on behalf of the user and allow them to get their money back simply due to the user declaring the product not fit for use. I noticed the available options for buying stuff round these parts go through PayPal, even though the user doesnt need an account - and why would that be - because PayPal makes it harder to do a chargeback then say a credit card / debit card issuer in a European country would - so Im pretty sure people at PW/Cryptic understand this.
There is no definitive line that counts as "truly scamming users" - its a huge gray area, where the consumer has one expectation and the result does not match that expectation - and all they have to do legally is show that their expectation was reasonably derived from ads either outside, or inside, the game itself.
Any business that sells anything on the planet could use that excuse if it were viable legally, which it is not. You chose to pay for those Firestone tires, too bad they blew out on you....
You will find that consumer protection law is far less rigid than simple justification through proclaiming "it was their choice to pay"
As far as a softlaunch is concerned, the sad fact is that companies will continue to do it as long as there are people willing to pay for unfinished products.
This, exactly. I honestly have no problem with this trend at all, as long as it's clear up front you ARE in a "Beta" or "soft launch" situation. I like being able to "test drive" a new game (or any game) for free. I've been burned recently on a couple games which didn't have any kind of official Beta and yet were OBVIOUSLY unfinished when released (which may be what the author of the fine article is referring to), but I've made the decision to no longer pay for games that I cannot try for free first, even if I have to wait until a "free weekend" months later to do so.
That's different - a blown out tire could cost the user additional money or even cause injury. There is no such risk to a player of NW, and you're not required to pay anything up front.
I suppose a better analogy would be if someone was offering free used tires, but made you sign a waver stating that their condition is unknown and that they are not liable if they blew out on you.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Close, but not really.
Expectation is just this, expectation. Customer can say he was expecting space ships and company didn't delivered.
Its all about advertising, description of the product and what we've got. You know, there is a reason why all the people who issued chargebacks had to lie, the product was delivered as advertised, its THEM expecting god knows what and being butthurt their dreams didn't come true. I have seen that scenario waaaaay to many times over the past years and the only games that were promising golden mountains and didn't delivered were ABP, Warhammer:AoR(was fun anyway thou), recent Colonial Marine and sad excuse of sandbox MMO called Darkfall. In all other cases it was uninformed, self deluded customers who never once read product description before happily throwing money at companies.
People are willing to buy an unfinished product because they want to for various reasons. To support the staff developing the game is a big one. No staff equals no game. You are only entitled to what you are purchasing at the time of purchase... whatever is in the contract.
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Try right on the nail. Expectation is what many countries are basing their consumer protection laws on. While those laws do not declare selling unfinished products illegal, they do liberally allow for users to get their money back when what they reasonably expected was not delivered, and reasonable expectation is not hard to prove.
And yes, there is always a subset of players who will happily throw money at companies who launch unfinished products, which is why I stated the sad fact is as long as those players exist, companies will continue to soft launch. Consumer protection laws are just allowing those users to take that money back when what they were promised and what they got dont add up.
It's no excuse.
I agree here and am not arguing this.
Incorrect/Incomplete, as you are only highlighting the part that supports your stance. Consumers in many markets have the ability to get their money back within 30 days - due to the way the consumer protection laws work in their country. I see this in motion on a daily basis.
This is why many consumers will fork over money for head start packs to play a game - knowing full well they can charge that back when and if they find multiple things that were advertised that are not adding up to what was delivered.
Actually in this case is. Being free to play you don't pay for the game, you pay for particular service or item from item shop. That pretty much means you don't have much right to complain on the state of the product "the game" because its not what you pay for. You pay for mount, bag, lottery ticket(box key), but you don't pay for the game. And since cash shop delivers instantly whatever you have chosen you can't complain about that as well. As I've said, in F2P game case you either have to lie to your CC/paypal or whatever you used to to get money back.
The laws do not distinguish between situations, only that what was promised and what was delivered need to add up.
Not accurate at all, because when people BUY things (not when playing the free game) they must be delivered what was reasonably expected.
Prob should read up on European consumer protection law.
If what you were saying is true, that flimsy excuse could be used for ANYTHING, as no one is REQUIRED to pay for anything at all really.
You are right that you do not pay for the game, you pay for cash shop items, and when what was delivered is not what was promised on that front, consumer protection in many countries allows for the user to instantly be made whole on the issue.
I suppose I should have clarified.
The cash shop being optional is not an excuse to term this a beta or a "soft launch" as again, when they decide to call this what it is (a launched game) it will still be optional.
Thats exactly what I'm talking about. Don't forget the part where cash shop instantly delivers whatever you wanted, exactly as described in the shop. Just go browse this forum, you'll find numerous threads made by people who've made chargebacks and had to lie in the reasons to get chargeback issued because technically they were delivered exactly what they wanted and what they would expect to get.
Citations needed. Had to lie? You do realize investigations occur when that request is made right? How did those people get their chargebacks then?
Heres a perfect example of how good consumer protection laws are in some of the places I meantioned: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/guarantees/index_en.htm
I understand the intent of these laws, but just as a company can word things to act in their favor, so can players...
Now, if you paid for 10 keys but only received 8, or if the keys were advertised as opening lockboxes, but didn't, then I can understand wanting a refund...
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I'll respond here with the "Almost" exact words I responded there.
MMO's are a complicated beasts and quite literally every single MMO launch releases with crippling issues. Whether it be bugs, exploits, server stability or balance issues. Almost everyone one and that is because try as you might, the beta test and testers do a horrible part and there isn't enough of them.
Now take Neverwinter...when the game launches in a few weeks just imagine how awesome the game became and how much more stable it is....ALL THANKS to people paying to play.
In conclusion that article is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and reeks of elitism but then again what do you expect from the status quo. I'd love to see more games take the PWI approach and charge for beta...imagine how awesome games like Elder Scrolls Online or Everquest Next would be if you could pay real money to play. But then again F2P titples have been pushing the developmental innovation engine for years now with their business models that to this day still catch a lot of flak from "insiders".
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I do not regret a single penny ive spent on it. because I know it will probably be here for a long time cause pwe has a rep for keeping games around even if they aren't the big game. unlike some game companies in COX I had 9000 paragon points when they declared they were closing it. So glitchy or not NWO is here playable has good rp and its probably not closing down for no reason. Heck im also really hoping they add some of the cool stuff they put in NWO and STO into CO.
The only downside I see with pwe games is they seem to have the largest number of people on the games that...seem..to HATE the games...as if some one had them strapped to chairs and was forcing them to play.... I figure people just like to whine a lot if people really disliked these games and really thought there was better games elseware you would think that is where they would be.
I figure when the next big free to play game comes out they will move to that one..and leave us with the standarf when are <enter weak class here) getting love .... and nerf <enter OP class here> trolls who basically love the game and just want it better.
One month, they suddenly started hosting a lot of discount sales. Like a LOT of really good and profitable discount sales. After about 2 months of this, they suddenly announced that Metal Asault wasn't profitable enough for them(even with their pathetically low amount of staff to pay) and canceled the game.
About one year of uptime to build up userbase and money. A lot of them were people who stuck through the insane economy fluctuations caused by swarms of hackers. They only refunded money spent on the game from 2 months before the game closed, so anything bought before then was just gone. Even if you got a refund, it was for Aeria Points. They still made all that money.
now console game are doing it. They have their DLC done at launch AND put on the disk and charge you to unlock what you already have on the disc.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.