lethizorMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
There are many of us, and I'm sure it's not a tiny population, that want to know what is factually, mathematically better. Instead of doing things in a way thats personally easiest/best for current status of situations/play/group through intuition, we want to fit our playstyle, approach, and situation to what is optimally 'best' for throughput, or even for survivability (tank cleric?), or even other goals, because it's ultimately more fun for us that way.
I was going to write this whole post about the differences between players and how we shouldn't make assumptions that what is right for us is right for everyone, but I can't be bothered. Did a few drafts and I just managed to sum it up anyways.
I was going to write this whole post about the differences between players and how we shouldn't make assumptions that what is right for us is right for everyone, but I can't be bothered. Did a few drafts and I just managed to sum it up anyways.
If I could just expand on this, it also depends on what abilities people use, not everybody is always going to use the same exact abilities and what benefits those abilities is going to be different. That is aside from the fact some people prefer consistency where others prefer bursts and so stats vary between those playstyles too.
Just to given an example of where CHA is good would be hallowed ground, it's not affected by crits and it's not affected by power and so the only way to make it better is to be able to use it more often but this is unlike say forgemaster's flame which certain does crit and afaik gets bigger badder bonuses from crit than it does power tho but all stats naturally benefit it in one way or another.
@redeclipze
I dunno if those 5% more regeneration really do save you all too often... the difference is barely noticable, also since the stamina bar does not feature a number at all and therefore you don't see as soon as you are able to use the dodge right away and more or less have to guess when it is "ready".
Not really. The stamina bar is bent into a chevron. If you have more than the Peak value (ie. you see anything on the right-hand side) then you can dodge.
5% regen is pretty vital in my build. I regret not having taken those feats and will be heading to get them as soon as I can afford a feat-respect. more constant casting of powers = more divinity and action pts. I've finally gotten my divinity regen to the point that I can "waste" divinity on the channeled damage without impacting my ability to keep my encounters powerd up. While the channeled damage isn't hugely better, it's somewhat better than BotS. Mostly at this point the additional regen is for action pts and cooldowns (which allow me to get in extra castings faster = more damage and healing.)
what OP lacks is detailed info on ASTRAL SHIELD. I mean it is the most useful overpowered must have spell... how much it heals?, is it why wisdom should be maxed and so on
There are many of us, and I'm sure it's not a tiny population, that want to know what is factually, mathematically better. Instead of doing things in a way thats personally easiest/best for current status of situations/play/group through intuition, we want to fit our playstyle, approach, and situation to what is optimally 'best' for throughput, or even for survivability (tank cleric?), or even other goals, because it's ultimately more fun for us that way.
I was going to write this whole post about the differences between players and how we shouldn't make assumptions that what is right for us is right for everyone, but I can't be bothered. Did a few drafts and I just managed to sum it up anyways.
This I understand completely. But you can't do math in a vacuum and expect to get applicable results unless you actually consider the variables contained within the situation(s) you are trying to apply the math to.
I could sit here and say Sacred Flame is cast 3 times per 2 seconds. With 33% crit rate it will crit an average of once per 3 cast combo. That means I proc Repurpose Soul once every 2 seconds. With my gear/stats it hits an average of around 850 damage so that means I'm AoE healing 120 health every 2 seconds.
Sounds good on paper, except the times you can actually stand still long enough to cast a full Sacred Flame chain are few and far between. You usually have to be moving for one reason or another or you need to cast something else.
Or how about the last fight of Frozen Heart where you kite in circles and get picked at by archers? Some might argue that bigger Healing Words would help you survive the archers better. I say no, you want +regen because stopping to cast Healing Word can get you hit by the mob train. You also benefit more from +move speed on that fight because you can keep ahead of the mob train easier and actually get time to cast.
The fact is to be a good cleric in this game you have 3 primary considerations and EVERYTHING should be based on these three things:
1) Don't die. I mean YOU don't die. You will get mass hate from enemies and you have to be able to handle it.
2) Astral Shield up-time. You want it up 100% of the time and blue regardless of what the heals tick for. The heals is a bonus, the damage reduction is what you want.
3) Hallowed Ground up-time (with moontouched). As close to 100% up-time as possible is best.
The fact is Wisdom and power don't help with any of things at all.
I could give you the math on how Foresight + HG + AS function with the 47.1% to 51% damage reduction (depends how the game does the math) they give combined and how that far superior that is to any amount of +1% healing here or +1% healing there but I honestly don't have time to run through all the variables and explain it.
I've also already explained several posts back how wisdom/power doesn't help accomplish these goals or even effect Hallowed Ground in the slightest. I could also talk about Invigorated Healing, again, and how that is a bigger +healing bump than wisdom could ever be and how it's not affected by wisdom/power either.
I'm not a very "mathy" person on forums because I just don't find pure math in abstract of real situations is good for anything. I'm quite capable of doing math but the kind of math I do would take up pages of forum posts. I would take examples using X number of enemies each hitting for X amount of damage with Y number of hits being avoided. With P, Q, and R abilities being used on CD and hitting T number of enemies/allies on average, etc....
I've done that on forums in the past, it's met by 3 responses:
1) WTF did I just read?
or
2) TL;DR
or
3) Nuh uh!
So I just post videos now when I settle on what works, in the game, not on paper.
There are many of us, and I'm sure it's not a tiny population, that want to know what is factually, mathematically better
Maths doesn't concern itself with "better", and many people make A LOT of mistakes relying on maths where their own comprehension is limited and so the only way to figure things out in the end is to have debates like these where people bring things to the table but you'll rarely get a full consensus from it I am afraid.
For example even expert mathematicians were thrown off by the following scenario/question.
You are on a quiz show and you get through to the final round where you are presented with three doors, two doors have goats behind them which would mean you lose but the third door has a car and if you select that door you win the car. You select a door and the host, Monty opens one of the alternative doors which has a goat behind it. There are two doors left and monty offers you the chance to swap. Should you swap or should you stay?
Most people assume the answer is that it doesn't matter, it's a 50:50 chance either way? Wrong, it's actually a 33:66 chance for stay:switch and this is called the monty hall problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_hall_problem
If expert mathematics can get thrown off by that what chance do you think that gamers in a forum are going to have to get ideal builds for game characters here?
like i said i am too impatient to discuss this topic a lot anymore, yet i couldn't resist peeking in here again.
Thus i will continue to answer on striking posts from time to time but i won't go into detail or reply to every single thing anymore...
For now i just wanna reply to unspecifiederror:
In fact none of those was aimed primarily at you since i didn't even have a look at your guide before; now that i know you did the same mistakes though i will certainly aim exactly those statements at you as well.
So what if 33% is 1/3 of all spells? Awesome mathematics there! ./irony off
Does that make it any better than 30% or 35%? You could just as well name those other 2 numbers in your statement without changing anything it contains! That's what i call a randomnumber, it's not a softcap or anything and for example does not make sense for anyone that didn't invest heavily into strength cause you will loose A LOT of efficiency by mindlessly stacking a single hard-DRed stat.
Also does your inability to use Prophecy of Doom correctly make it a bad choice for anyone to spec? It's AP gain is HUGE, the damage it would do is completely irrelevant because if it does do damage you use it wrong in the first place.
So you used xx million AD to test stuff... mind me telling you what you did achieve by that? You found the spec you personally like because you can play it the best.
That however does not apply to all people reading a guide. A guide has to be objective and display REAL benefits from doing stuff the way it explains to, not some pseudo-benefits that only exist because you don't manage to do it another way.
Like i already stated my guide expects the player using it to be able to use all spells well-timed and also to know how to act in specific situations based on own logic and experience. Still there always is something you have to base a guide on - and the usual approach to do theorycrafting and finally write guides is to require theoretically perfect play.
Why? If anyone reading this does not understand the sense in this, you wasted your time clicking on this thread anyways.
Thank you for taking the time to generate the numbers on the DR of different stats! Also for putting together the exact numbers on Divinity/AP gain and the buffs on HG and others.
You say you did theorycraft? So how did you do that if you found all the numbers you need to theorycraft in my guide??
<which was released quite a while later>
I could go on "flaming" you further but in fact i think that's enough.
Do you know why guys like you make me angry? It's because you keep telling people wrong stuff for no reason and make them perform badly since you don't even care to reflect on yourself and realise you might not be the correct person to tell others how to act in this game.
Writing a guide means most people reading it will trust you! So you really have to take responsibility, live up to those expectations and provide correct information!
If you're going to hate me now for telling the truth - so be it... Yet i won't apologize to you for being agressive as long as you don't apologize to all those people you did mislead.
It's funny how you say people like me make you mad because I'm spreading "false information."
Armchair theory crafters that never actually go out in the game and TEST THEIR THEORIES in the actual game make me mad.
As far as I can gather from everything you've said you sat down with some paper and a pencil did some math and said "Yup, this is best!" Yet you haven't actually ever TRIED the alternatives.
I'm only going to respond to the Prophecy of Doom issue in depth because the rest is pointless Ad Hominem garbage that shows your ignorance, especially in the fact you haven't ever even LOOKED at my builds yet claim they're bad. For the record I didn't NEED your numbers, I just ppreciated them because it simplified things a bit. I did have to ignore 2 fields in your table though because your "% per 1 rating" and "Rating for 1%" are useless numbers arrived at through ignorance of the fact that all stats follow a linear progression to a point and then suffer for an exponential increase in diminishing returns. Your fields completely fails to reflect the fact that 2500 recovery is 20% recharge rate increase and the next 2,100 on gives a 6% increase.
As for PoD:
We have 3 encounter slots available.
1) Astral Shield.
2) Sun Burst.
3) Varies.
Number 3 is the only variable encounter slot we have, and I'm not even going to explain why because a super theory-crafter should know the answer.
Let's examine the situations you encounter in T2s and what is the optimal choice (I define optimal as getting the job done as fast as possible with the least resistance).
Trash (this includes the first and second bosses in almost all T2s: Forgemaster's if you need healing. Daunting Light or Searing Light if you don't. Searing Light is better in large groups, try casting it in divine mode after a wizard uses singularity and you'll see why. Things SHOULD be dying so fast PoD is pointless and you MIGHT get 2-3 casts out of it but daily powers are superfluous anyway.
Karrundax: Forgemaster's for extra boss DPS and AoE healing. You don't kill trash when the boss is up so PoD serves no purpose. Oh and 100% uptime on HG is easy to achieve with SB and FF.
Spiders: Forgemaster's for extra AoE healing. With FF and AS you can just stand and spam on the boss. All adds are thrown off the edge. You could use PoD but I achieve 100% up-time on HG without it so why bother?
Spellplague: Healer's Lore (swap in Divine Purpose as well). Healer's Lore serves as an excellent taunt to pull adds off the rogues as well as a divinity builder (with DP) so you can maintain an AS for the CW who is throwing everything off the edge. Your daily powers are of no significant value on this fight. HG is still nice but it's more important to keep the AS up and pull adds off the rogues. PoD is not the optimal choice here.
Frozen Heart: HL and DP because nothing but archers dies. You are running in a circle kiting and HL+DP lets you build divinity to keep the AS up. Nothing dies, PoD is useless.
Pirates: HL+DP. Same as Frozen Heart. Or if you choose to burn the adds while someone tanks the boss off to the side then FF is better because you can split heal. AS for the Add group and FF for the boss group. Again, PoD is NOT the optimal choice. You should also have HG 100% up without a problem if you aren't kiting. If you are kiting, nothing dies.
Prophecy of Doom is BAD. It has nothing to do with my ability to use it. It just is never the optimal choice for any T2, ever. Though I suppose if you waste your time stacking a bunch of wisdom and power so your recovery/recharge/AP gain is absolutely terrible maybe you need it to keep HG up 100% of the time. But that means you are using something sub-optimal to compensate for choosing something sub-optimal. Go You!
You don't get that min-maxing has nothing to do with only being able to beat content by using it (at least not in this game up to now - it's just too easy) and that it's completely irrational to argue something is situation-based if we are talking percentage healing increases anyway so it narrows down to you contradicting my usage of PoD.
My spreadsheet in fact is the way a spreadsheet is created in general; i also stated i would have liked to display the results in another way that is easier to understand, but that would need countless numbers of sample values that i didn't want to invest time in, since if people care to understand it this will do.
In terms of PoD it is nice how you exclude any playworthy instance (from a difficulty PoV) in your list. To play Dread Vaults legit AND to play Castle Never legit PoD is awesome.
If you manage to do it (since u did some videos on other stuff) how about recording a video killing these bosses with a 100% uptime on HG without PoD? You will very soon notice that it's impossible...
Why do you think i can claim your stuff is bad without looking through the whole thing? It is because you brought up at least 2 incorrect points - and that's already a bad overall thing in my opinion - nuff said.
Last but not least - your argument "armchair theory crafter" seems very strange - so it's only you that plays this game i suppose...
I'm building a spreadsheet calculator that attempts to obtain an identical character with the least amount of total "rating" points possible. That is, Wisdom can be replicated by using enough Power, and Strength can be replicated by using enough Crit rating, etc...
Quite simply the one that can be replicated with the least points should be the preferred approach. (I have a Wisdom based Cleric as well, but I am now leaning towards Str and will post my results when I get a couple more things done)
So I've read every page and really curious to verify your findings so I don't have to respec.
A couple things:
1) Do you have the formula for diminishing returns or are you just using the character sheet? I've been trying to back-build the formula with only limited success.
2) FYI, Your excel sheet % per 1 rating columns all seem shifted until line 26 (they all reference the line below). It's either wrong or just not intuitive the way you have it set up.
If you have the diminishing returns calc that would help a lot, if not I'll make do with using the character sheet for an approximation.
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lethizorMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
People keep saying things aren't tested, but then don't believe in math being applicable (many people have said this, unspecified keeps hitting on the point that Lanlin didn't test multiple specs) - a lot of people keep saying that sandbox math doesn't apply to the real game. It's a case of equal but opposite, if you can't see that... you guys are dismissing his mathematic legwork as invalid, and he is dismissing your intuitive character building as invalid. It will go on and on literally forever between the two schools of thought.
Repeatedly I see "But the math isn't super important, this is what you need to do, this is what worked for me", and you guys are just dismissing math... well those of us who embrace learning the formulas behind abilities and stats to a T and then building our playstyle around that are just as dismissive of the intuitive approach of "this works for us, and this didn't, thats why".
In short, the conflict is not going to be solved anytime soon.
Also, just to clarify, the few responses directed @ me about how this approach is 'wrong' aren't going to have an effect on my decisions any more then lanlin telling you guys that your numbers are arbitrary based soley on experience is going to have any effect on yours. I've always theorycrafted my classes in every game I've played, it's a valid approach, and is certainly not this 'crazy' method to approach character building like some make it out to be.
People keep saying things aren't tested, but then don't believe in math being applicable (many people have said this, unspecified keeps hitting on the point that Lanlin didn't test multiple specs) - a lot of people keep saying that sandbox math doesn't apply to the real game. It's a case of equal but opposite, if you can't see that... you guys are dismissing his mathematic legwork as invalid, and he is dismissing your intuitive character building as invalid. It will go on and on literally forever between the two schools of thought.
Repeatedly I see "But the math isn't super important, this is what you need to do, this is what worked for me", and you guys are just dismissing math... well those of us who embrace learning the formulas behind abilities and stats to a T and then building our playstyle around that are just as dismissive of the intuitive approach of "this works for us, and this didn't, thats why".
I never intended to be dismissive of the value of math. I use it a lot. I also never meant to imply theory crafting is bad, I do it a lot.
What I have a problem with is the underlying assumption of this theory crafting that bigger heals are the best thing and you should focus on them.
The way the game actually plays out is vastly different from other MMOs. When I played WoW, LOTRO, and Rift it was true that bigger heals was better than everything else. That rule just doesn't apply to this game.
When you run enough T2s with a GOOD CW and a good group in general you quickly realize that bigger heals just aren't what the group needs.
What your group needs from a cleric is:
1) A cleric who isn't dead. Bigger heals won't help here. Defensive stats like Defense, Deflect, and Regen do help, a LOT.
2) Astral Shield up and blue 100% of the time. This means Divinity gain and recharge speed (33% minimum for 15 second CD) are top priority.
3) Hallowed Ground up 100% of the time during most bosses. This means AP gain.
4) Enough Spare divinity to cast a second spell in divine mode 100% of the time (Forgemaster's for example)
The top 4 priorities you SHOULD have as a cleric in this game are not accomplished through Wisdom/Power stacking. The only priority that is even remotely helped by Wisdom/Power is the first one and that is better achieved through other means. Wisdom/Power aren't useless by any stretch but stacking them at the expense of Divinity Gain (crits), AP Gain (Recovery/Charisma), or Recharge Speed before 33% is a horrible, horrible idea.
Spare divinity is accomplished through crits and recharge speed (Righteous Rage of Tempus and Ethereal Boon). Each spell gives a set amount of divinity and the only way to get more per cast is crits.
Again, my problem isn't math or theory crafting, its math or theory crafting that ignores important variables and game mechanics.
1. The guide does not mention Cleanse.
2. The guide does not mention Holy Fervor.
3. Speccing for Combat Advantage in any way shape or form is ridiculous for a healer, since protection is from your spells not positioning. Even if there were not clearly superior alternatives like:
4. 33% crit chance is easy to get as a Cleric, even before T2 dungeons. Why on earth would you pass up 10% free Divinity from minor damage procs, i.e. just from being active?
5. No mention of Brand of the Sun as a powerful Divinity builder?
Quite simply the one that can be replicated with the least points should be the preferred approach. (I have a Wisdom based Cleric as well, but I am now leaning towards Str and will post my results when I get a couple more things done)
1) 20% crit
2) 33% Recharge
3) 1000 average healing (700 from weapon)
Using the least amount of rating from gear as possible.
Essentially the Wisdom build ends up ahead in pretty much every case without fail but by a pretty slim margin (500 rating or roughly the equivalent of half a piece of gear).
A couple things to note:
1) I did not have the diminishing returns formula I synthesized one that followed the results posted by lanlin earlier.
2) My synthesized formula does not work for extreme disparities between Desired and Base crit/recharge (more than 17% from rating) largely because I didn't have any data points to work with.
It is possible that because of #2 the strength build may push to the lead at extremely high crit rates.
power increases healing, but, its very minor. iirc, 25 points of power is 1 more point of healing, or, somewhere around there.
and to whoever asked about crit: DoT/HoTs (and spells) work differently in this game. if one part of your DoT/HoT or AoE crits, the ENTIRE thing crits. that means if the first tick of healing word, for example, crits, every single tick over the duration will crit, 100%; every enemy effected by flamestrike/daunting light will be crit, etc.
that makes crit very useful.
You mentioned AoE's here but I have Sun Burst have some hits Crit and some not Crit all the time. Is that an exception?
Add in 4) High Divinity gain and tell me crit doesn't pull ahead.
Unless you're thinking about something that I'm not Divinity gain is based on crit chance. If I have the same crit chance between the two builds (20%) then Divinity gain is also the same. Thus, Wisdom is still ahead.
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mewbreyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 517Bounty Hunter
edited May 2013
heya, not gonna argue for or against any one on the forums as I believe in respecting everyone options especially when people have clearly put in so much effort with their guides and work.
Just wanted to make a post to say thanks for some of the information and it gave me some ideas how to make my guide a little clearly and not confuse people as much by saying for example: to aim for a flat 33% critical, even though the net result still ends up with 33% critical because of how the set gear works in game!
So thanks for the well laid out information, have used a few of the numbers in my guide to help things be a little more clear.
Unless you're thinking about something that I'm not Divinity gain is based on crit chance. If I have the same crit chance between the two builds (20%) then Divinity gain is also the same. Thus, Wisdom is still ahead.
So, Divinity gain is based on crit chance... so that makes a higher crit build have more divinity gain. Your post said nothing about divinity gain on your character, so therefore I figured you didn't take it into account. You listed 3 factors, and I'm saying, if you include a 4th (divinity gain), stacking crit pulls ahead of stacking WIS. Especially if you slot Vorpal enchants.
So, Divinity gain is based on crit chance... so that makes a higher crit build have more divinity gain. Your post said nothing about divinity gain on your character, so therefore I figured you didn't take it into account. You listed 3 factors, and I'm saying, if you include a 4th (divinity gain), stacking crit pulls ahead of stacking WIS. Especially if you slot Vorpal enchants.
Not sure what you're missing (or I'm missing), but the short of it is: you can build an identical character for less overall rating points from gear by using a Wisdom build than using a Strength build.
By identical I mean, you have the same talents, same crit chance, same healing, same refresh, same divinity gain, same AP gain, etc.
Again, this held true for all modest amounts of crit, but wasn't able to test it higher.
Not sure what you're missing (or I'm missing), but the short of it is: you can build an identical character for less overall rating points from gear by using a Wisdom build than using a Strength build.
By identical I mean, you have the same talents, same crit chance, same healing, same refresh, same divinity gain, same AP gain, etc.
Again, this held true for all modest amounts of crit, but wasn't able to test it higher.
If you could show your test figures that would be good, most people now seem to be suggesting that recovery/crit have Diminishing Returns where power, strength, wisdom and charisma do not. Meaning you need exponentially more recovery or crit for each 1% more unlike power which is a more constant increase and so easier to replace wisdom with power than it is strength with crit or cha with recovery. I haven't done these tests myself tho.
1) 20% crit
2) 33% Recharge
3) 1000 average healing (700 from weapon)
Using the least amount of rating from gear as possible.
Essentially the Wisdom build ends up ahead in pretty much every case without fail but by a pretty slim margin (500 rating or roughly the equivalent of half a piece of gear).
Good to see this data. It's a compelling argument for an initial wisdom roll.
I'm curious if it holds up if you change the starting assumptions. If you're after a 33% crit rating, you're going to have to pay more rating points for that in the wisdom build than in the strength version because of how much harder you get hit by diminishing returns. I don't know that the 33% magic number is the right one, but it seems to be what unspecifiederror and deistik prefer.
It also seems like some folks don't think the heal numbers need to be that high. I think getting the strength build to the same level of healing as the wisdom build would have with 0 rating points in power would be around 300 points cheaper, which goes quite a ways to close that gap. This isn't practical of course, since gear is going to have power, but it would help to see if wisdom is always advantageous.
Finally, I'm not sure if you tried a 15/18/13 (str/wis/cha) build. This shares the dex dump with the wisdom build, and it would be interesting if it was the most rating point efficient variant.
Is it easy to make that spreadsheet available for the public to copy? I'd rather work with your starting point and formulas than try to recreate it.
Maths doesn't concern itself with "better", and many people make A LOT of mistakes relying on maths where their own comprehension is limited and so the only way to figure things out in the end is to have debates like these where people bring things to the table but you'll rarely get a full consensus from it I am afraid.
For example even expert mathematicians were thrown off by the following scenario/question.
You are on a quiz show and you get through to the final round where you are presented with three doors, two doors have goats behind them which would mean you lose but the third door has a car and if you select that door you win the car. You select a door and the host, Monty opens one of the alternative doors which has a goat behind it. There are two doors left and monty offers you the chance to swap. Should you swap or should you stay?
Most people assume the answer is that it doesn't matter, it's a 50:50 chance either way? Wrong, it's actually a 33:66 chance for stay:switch and this is called the monty hall problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_hall_problem
If expert mathematics can get thrown off by that what chance do you think that gamers in a forum are going to have to get ideal builds for game characters here?
Actually that wiki link says that the host knows what is behind each door, which is a fact you left out of your writeup and is actually the key fact to the puzzle. If the host knows what is behind each door and he obviously will not choose to open the door with the car behind it then the odds for switching after he exposes a goat are in favour.
I am not saying that I would have gotten it right but I may have if given the correct puzzle. A quote from that wiki link: "If Monty opens another door at random and only happens to reveal a goat, then it makes no difference".
I don't know that the 33% magic number is the right one, but it seems to be what unspecifiederror and deistik prefer.
It also seems like some folks don't think the heal numbers need to be that high. I think getting the strength build to the same level of healing as the wisdom build would have with 0 rating points in power would be around 300 points cheaper
You don't need huge healing numbers, the primary job is damage mitigation and mitigating damage in this game is a lot easier than healing which is why having 100% uptime on Astral Shield and having 100% uptime on Hallowed Ground is essentially irreplaceable since those abilities give good damage mitigation and both of them can heal (Astral Shield with Divinity and Hallowed Ground with Moontouched, moontouched isn't affected by power or crit at all).
Of course once you have 100% uptime... then you don't need recovery much more and thus those two are soft caps for recovery. As far as crit goes, the 33% mark would mean on average 1 in 3 attacks proc a crit which when you consider a certain feat that gives an AoE heal on all crits means a lot more AoE heals. Not sure if that's the reason for it but it's certainly a consideration.
Actually that wiki link says that the host knows what is behind each door, which is a fact you left out of your writeup and is actually the key fact to the puzzle. If the host knows what is behind each door and he obviously will not choose to open the door with the car behind it then the odds for switching after he exposes a goat are in favour.
I am not saying that I would have gotten it right but I may have if given the correct puzzle. A quote from that wiki link: "If Monty opens another door at random and only happens to reveal a goat, then it makes no difference".
I was summarizing, thus why I gave the link so that if anybody was interested they could read it in more detail. Naturally the show host knows what is behind which door as they knew how to reveal the goat, if they didn't then there would be a chance to reveal the car behind the first door chosen and what I said never said that was a possibility because it isn't in this scenario.
I think this deserves its own thread so I'll be posting it when the stupid probationary period drops off.
I took the analysis one step further to not just answer the question of which is a better approach (Strength or Wisdom as proposed by the two current builds) but rather to answer the question of what is the best approach to spending your stat points.
For the lazy: You can just put all your points into Wisdom & Charisma, the difference between the best and this approach is very slim.
Hope this simplifies the character creation page for everyone.
If expert mathematics can get thrown off by that what chance do you think that gamers in a forum are going to have to get ideal builds for game characters here?
That's an elementary probability tree question. Is it mind bending? A bit, but that's what's cool about mathematics the right answer is not always the most logical.
Note: I extended the formula in an attempt to account for even larger ratings values. I have no way to judge the actual results as I haven't seen anyone post any rating->actual crit chance results above 3800. I also changed the source of the data to Kripparrian rather than Lanlin, as the youtube video plainly shows the same excel file used by Lanlin.
What exactly is your 1,000 Healing and why do you want it?
I'm guessing you are taking weapon damage adding power +damage/healing and then adding a % from wisdom?
I'm just not sure why you want 1,000 healing bonus. After spell coefficients that does not translate to much of anything. For example 1,900 power gives 76 healing bonus but only raises each tick of AS by a very marginal amount. Mine ticks for around 350 with 3,100 power and 20 wisdom.
I understand your choice of 33% crit, that is an obvious soft-cap for clerics. I just don't understand your choice for stopping at 20% crit or wanting 1,000 healing bonus. Perhaps I'm missing the reason but I just don't see it.
Another question I have is, are you just ignoring defensive stats? Do you feel they are pointless and a waste of gear stats or are your planned values just not shown?
I, too, am confused about only 20% crit. I love spreadsheets, I just don't understand the logic behind that low of crit. Also, consider if you are slotting Vorpal enchant, crit becomes even more valuable.
Comments
I was going to write this whole post about the differences between players and how we shouldn't make assumptions that what is right for us is right for everyone, but I can't be bothered. Did a few drafts and I just managed to sum it up anyways.
If I could just expand on this, it also depends on what abilities people use, not everybody is always going to use the same exact abilities and what benefits those abilities is going to be different. That is aside from the fact some people prefer consistency where others prefer bursts and so stats vary between those playstyles too.
Just to given an example of where CHA is good would be hallowed ground, it's not affected by crits and it's not affected by power and so the only way to make it better is to be able to use it more often but this is unlike say forgemaster's flame which certain does crit and afaik gets bigger badder bonuses from crit than it does power tho but all stats naturally benefit it in one way or another.
Not really. The stamina bar is bent into a chevron. If you have more than the Peak value (ie. you see anything on the right-hand side) then you can dodge.
5% regen is pretty vital in my build. I regret not having taken those feats and will be heading to get them as soon as I can afford a feat-respect. more constant casting of powers = more divinity and action pts. I've finally gotten my divinity regen to the point that I can "waste" divinity on the channeled damage without impacting my ability to keep my encounters powerd up. While the channeled damage isn't hugely better, it's somewhat better than BotS. Mostly at this point the additional regen is for action pts and cooldowns (which allow me to get in extra castings faster = more damage and healing.)
This I understand completely. But you can't do math in a vacuum and expect to get applicable results unless you actually consider the variables contained within the situation(s) you are trying to apply the math to.
I could sit here and say Sacred Flame is cast 3 times per 2 seconds. With 33% crit rate it will crit an average of once per 3 cast combo. That means I proc Repurpose Soul once every 2 seconds. With my gear/stats it hits an average of around 850 damage so that means I'm AoE healing 120 health every 2 seconds.
Sounds good on paper, except the times you can actually stand still long enough to cast a full Sacred Flame chain are few and far between. You usually have to be moving for one reason or another or you need to cast something else.
Or how about the last fight of Frozen Heart where you kite in circles and get picked at by archers? Some might argue that bigger Healing Words would help you survive the archers better. I say no, you want +regen because stopping to cast Healing Word can get you hit by the mob train. You also benefit more from +move speed on that fight because you can keep ahead of the mob train easier and actually get time to cast.
The fact is to be a good cleric in this game you have 3 primary considerations and EVERYTHING should be based on these three things:
1) Don't die. I mean YOU don't die. You will get mass hate from enemies and you have to be able to handle it.
2) Astral Shield up-time. You want it up 100% of the time and blue regardless of what the heals tick for. The heals is a bonus, the damage reduction is what you want.
3) Hallowed Ground up-time (with moontouched). As close to 100% up-time as possible is best.
The fact is Wisdom and power don't help with any of things at all.
I could give you the math on how Foresight + HG + AS function with the 47.1% to 51% damage reduction (depends how the game does the math) they give combined and how that far superior that is to any amount of +1% healing here or +1% healing there but I honestly don't have time to run through all the variables and explain it.
I've also already explained several posts back how wisdom/power doesn't help accomplish these goals or even effect Hallowed Ground in the slightest. I could also talk about Invigorated Healing, again, and how that is a bigger +healing bump than wisdom could ever be and how it's not affected by wisdom/power either.
I'm not a very "mathy" person on forums because I just don't find pure math in abstract of real situations is good for anything. I'm quite capable of doing math but the kind of math I do would take up pages of forum posts. I would take examples using X number of enemies each hitting for X amount of damage with Y number of hits being avoided. With P, Q, and R abilities being used on CD and hitting T number of enemies/allies on average, etc....
I've done that on forums in the past, it's met by 3 responses:
1) WTF did I just read?
or
2) TL;DR
or
3) Nuh uh!
So I just post videos now when I settle on what works, in the game, not on paper.
Maths doesn't concern itself with "better", and many people make A LOT of mistakes relying on maths where their own comprehension is limited and so the only way to figure things out in the end is to have debates like these where people bring things to the table but you'll rarely get a full consensus from it I am afraid.
For example even expert mathematicians were thrown off by the following scenario/question.
You are on a quiz show and you get through to the final round where you are presented with three doors, two doors have goats behind them which would mean you lose but the third door has a car and if you select that door you win the car. You select a door and the host, Monty opens one of the alternative doors which has a goat behind it. There are two doors left and monty offers you the chance to swap. Should you swap or should you stay?
Most people assume the answer is that it doesn't matter, it's a 50:50 chance either way? Wrong, it's actually a 33:66 chance for stay:switch and this is called the monty hall problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_hall_problem
If expert mathematics can get thrown off by that what chance do you think that gamers in a forum are going to have to get ideal builds for game characters here?
like i said i am too impatient to discuss this topic a lot anymore, yet i couldn't resist peeking in here again.
Thus i will continue to answer on striking posts from time to time but i won't go into detail or reply to every single thing anymore...
For now i just wanna reply to unspecifiederror:
In fact none of those was aimed primarily at you since i didn't even have a look at your guide before; now that i know you did the same mistakes though i will certainly aim exactly those statements at you as well.
So what if 33% is 1/3 of all spells? Awesome mathematics there! ./irony off
Does that make it any better than 30% or 35%? You could just as well name those other 2 numbers in your statement without changing anything it contains! That's what i call a randomnumber, it's not a softcap or anything and for example does not make sense for anyone that didn't invest heavily into strength cause you will loose A LOT of efficiency by mindlessly stacking a single hard-DRed stat.
Also does your inability to use Prophecy of Doom correctly make it a bad choice for anyone to spec? It's AP gain is HUGE, the damage it would do is completely irrelevant because if it does do damage you use it wrong in the first place.
So you used xx million AD to test stuff... mind me telling you what you did achieve by that? You found the spec you personally like because you can play it the best.
That however does not apply to all people reading a guide. A guide has to be objective and display REAL benefits from doing stuff the way it explains to, not some pseudo-benefits that only exist because you don't manage to do it another way.
Like i already stated my guide expects the player using it to be able to use all spells well-timed and also to know how to act in specific situations based on own logic and experience. Still there always is something you have to base a guide on - and the usual approach to do theorycrafting and finally write guides is to require theoretically perfect play.
Why? If anyone reading this does not understand the sense in this, you wasted your time clicking on this thread anyways.
You say you did theorycraft? So how did you do that if you found all the numbers you need to theorycraft in my guide??
<which was released quite a while later>
I could go on "flaming" you further but in fact i think that's enough.
Do you know why guys like you make me angry? It's because you keep telling people wrong stuff for no reason and make them perform badly since you don't even care to reflect on yourself and realise you might not be the correct person to tell others how to act in this game.
Writing a guide means most people reading it will trust you! So you really have to take responsibility, live up to those expectations and provide correct information!
If you're going to hate me now for telling the truth - so be it... Yet i won't apologize to you for being agressive as long as you don't apologize to all those people you did mislead.
It's funny how you say people like me make you mad because I'm spreading "false information."
Armchair theory crafters that never actually go out in the game and TEST THEIR THEORIES in the actual game make me mad.
As far as I can gather from everything you've said you sat down with some paper and a pencil did some math and said "Yup, this is best!" Yet you haven't actually ever TRIED the alternatives.
I'm only going to respond to the Prophecy of Doom issue in depth because the rest is pointless Ad Hominem garbage that shows your ignorance, especially in the fact you haven't ever even LOOKED at my builds yet claim they're bad. For the record I didn't NEED your numbers, I just ppreciated them because it simplified things a bit. I did have to ignore 2 fields in your table though because your "% per 1 rating" and "Rating for 1%" are useless numbers arrived at through ignorance of the fact that all stats follow a linear progression to a point and then suffer for an exponential increase in diminishing returns. Your fields completely fails to reflect the fact that 2500 recovery is 20% recharge rate increase and the next 2,100 on gives a 6% increase.
As for PoD:
We have 3 encounter slots available.
1) Astral Shield.
2) Sun Burst.
3) Varies.
Number 3 is the only variable encounter slot we have, and I'm not even going to explain why because a super theory-crafter should know the answer.
Let's examine the situations you encounter in T2s and what is the optimal choice (I define optimal as getting the job done as fast as possible with the least resistance).
Trash (this includes the first and second bosses in almost all T2s: Forgemaster's if you need healing. Daunting Light or Searing Light if you don't. Searing Light is better in large groups, try casting it in divine mode after a wizard uses singularity and you'll see why. Things SHOULD be dying so fast PoD is pointless and you MIGHT get 2-3 casts out of it but daily powers are superfluous anyway.
Karrundax: Forgemaster's for extra boss DPS and AoE healing. You don't kill trash when the boss is up so PoD serves no purpose. Oh and 100% uptime on HG is easy to achieve with SB and FF.
Spiders: Forgemaster's for extra AoE healing. With FF and AS you can just stand and spam on the boss. All adds are thrown off the edge. You could use PoD but I achieve 100% up-time on HG without it so why bother?
Spellplague: Healer's Lore (swap in Divine Purpose as well). Healer's Lore serves as an excellent taunt to pull adds off the rogues as well as a divinity builder (with DP) so you can maintain an AS for the CW who is throwing everything off the edge. Your daily powers are of no significant value on this fight. HG is still nice but it's more important to keep the AS up and pull adds off the rogues. PoD is not the optimal choice here.
Frozen Heart: HL and DP because nothing but archers dies. You are running in a circle kiting and HL+DP lets you build divinity to keep the AS up. Nothing dies, PoD is useless.
Pirates: HL+DP. Same as Frozen Heart. Or if you choose to burn the adds while someone tanks the boss off to the side then FF is better because you can split heal. AS for the Add group and FF for the boss group. Again, PoD is NOT the optimal choice. You should also have HG 100% up without a problem if you aren't kiting. If you are kiting, nothing dies.
Prophecy of Doom is BAD. It has nothing to do with my ability to use it. It just is never the optimal choice for any T2, ever. Though I suppose if you waste your time stacking a bunch of wisdom and power so your recovery/recharge/AP gain is absolutely terrible maybe you need it to keep HG up 100% of the time. But that means you are using something sub-optimal to compensate for choosing something sub-optimal. Go You!
You don't get that min-maxing has nothing to do with only being able to beat content by using it (at least not in this game up to now - it's just too easy) and that it's completely irrational to argue something is situation-based if we are talking percentage healing increases anyway so it narrows down to you contradicting my usage of PoD.
My spreadsheet in fact is the way a spreadsheet is created in general; i also stated i would have liked to display the results in another way that is easier to understand, but that would need countless numbers of sample values that i didn't want to invest time in, since if people care to understand it this will do.
In terms of PoD it is nice how you exclude any playworthy instance (from a difficulty PoV) in your list. To play Dread Vaults legit AND to play Castle Never legit PoD is awesome.
If you manage to do it (since u did some videos on other stuff) how about recording a video killing these bosses with a 100% uptime on HG without PoD? You will very soon notice that it's impossible...
Why do you think i can claim your stuff is bad without looking through the whole thing? It is because you brought up at least 2 incorrect points - and that's already a bad overall thing in my opinion - nuff said.
Last but not least - your argument "armchair theory crafter" seems very strange - so it's only you that plays this game i suppose...
I'm building a spreadsheet calculator that attempts to obtain an identical character with the least amount of total "rating" points possible. That is, Wisdom can be replicated by using enough Power, and Strength can be replicated by using enough Crit rating, etc...
Quite simply the one that can be replicated with the least points should be the preferred approach. (I have a Wisdom based Cleric as well, but I am now leaning towards Str and will post my results when I get a couple more things done)
So I've read every page and really curious to verify your findings so I don't have to respec.
A couple things:
If you have the diminishing returns calc that would help a lot, if not I'll make do with using the character sheet for an approximation.
Repeatedly I see "But the math isn't super important, this is what you need to do, this is what worked for me", and you guys are just dismissing math... well those of us who embrace learning the formulas behind abilities and stats to a T and then building our playstyle around that are just as dismissive of the intuitive approach of "this works for us, and this didn't, thats why".
In short, the conflict is not going to be solved anytime soon.
Also, just to clarify, the few responses directed @ me about how this approach is 'wrong' aren't going to have an effect on my decisions any more then lanlin telling you guys that your numbers are arbitrary based soley on experience is going to have any effect on yours. I've always theorycrafted my classes in every game I've played, it's a valid approach, and is certainly not this 'crazy' method to approach character building like some make it out to be.
Meh.
I never intended to be dismissive of the value of math. I use it a lot. I also never meant to imply theory crafting is bad, I do it a lot.
What I have a problem with is the underlying assumption of this theory crafting that bigger heals are the best thing and you should focus on them.
The way the game actually plays out is vastly different from other MMOs. When I played WoW, LOTRO, and Rift it was true that bigger heals was better than everything else. That rule just doesn't apply to this game.
When you run enough T2s with a GOOD CW and a good group in general you quickly realize that bigger heals just aren't what the group needs.
What your group needs from a cleric is:
1) A cleric who isn't dead. Bigger heals won't help here. Defensive stats like Defense, Deflect, and Regen do help, a LOT.
2) Astral Shield up and blue 100% of the time. This means Divinity gain and recharge speed (33% minimum for 15 second CD) are top priority.
3) Hallowed Ground up 100% of the time during most bosses. This means AP gain.
4) Enough Spare divinity to cast a second spell in divine mode 100% of the time (Forgemaster's for example)
The top 4 priorities you SHOULD have as a cleric in this game are not accomplished through Wisdom/Power stacking. The only priority that is even remotely helped by Wisdom/Power is the first one and that is better achieved through other means. Wisdom/Power aren't useless by any stretch but stacking them at the expense of Divinity Gain (crits), AP Gain (Recovery/Charisma), or Recharge Speed before 33% is a horrible, horrible idea.
Spare divinity is accomplished through crits and recharge speed (Righteous Rage of Tempus and Ethereal Boon). Each spell gives a set amount of divinity and the only way to get more per cast is crits.
Again, my problem isn't math or theory crafting, its math or theory crafting that ignores important variables and game mechanics.
Quoted for truth.
2. The guide does not mention Holy Fervor.
3. Speccing for Combat Advantage in any way shape or form is ridiculous for a healer, since protection is from your spells not positioning. Even if there were not clearly superior alternatives like:
4. 33% crit chance is easy to get as a Cleric, even before T2 dungeons. Why on earth would you pass up 10% free Divinity from minor damage procs, i.e. just from being active?
5. No mention of Brand of the Sun as a powerful Divinity builder?
So I finished the Excel File:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AsrKUoPM_yPjdFdpZHk0UG9Xa19fSnpWeE1UQU5jdVE&gid=0
The goal was to create a cleric with:
2) 33% Recharge
3) 1000 average healing (700 from weapon)
Using the least amount of rating from gear as possible.
Essentially the Wisdom build ends up ahead in pretty much every case without fail but by a pretty slim margin (500 rating or roughly the equivalent of half a piece of gear).
A couple things to note:
1) I did not have the diminishing returns formula I synthesized one that followed the results posted by lanlin earlier.
2) My synthesized formula does not work for extreme disparities between Desired and Base crit/recharge (more than 17% from rating) largely because I didn't have any data points to work with.
It is possible that because of #2 the strength build may push to the lead at extremely high crit rates.
Add in 4) High Divinity gain and tell me crit doesn't pull ahead.
You mentioned AoE's here but I have Sun Burst have some hits Crit and some not Crit all the time. Is that an exception?
Unless you're thinking about something that I'm not Divinity gain is based on crit chance. If I have the same crit chance between the two builds (20%) then Divinity gain is also the same. Thus, Wisdom is still ahead.
Just wanted to make a post to say thanks for some of the information and it gave me some ideas how to make my guide a little clearly and not confuse people as much by saying for example: to aim for a flat 33% critical, even though the net result still ends up with 33% critical because of how the set gear works in game!
So thanks for the well laid out information, have used a few of the numbers in my guide to help things be a little more clear.
So, Divinity gain is based on crit chance... so that makes a higher crit build have more divinity gain. Your post said nothing about divinity gain on your character, so therefore I figured you didn't take it into account. You listed 3 factors, and I'm saying, if you include a 4th (divinity gain), stacking crit pulls ahead of stacking WIS. Especially if you slot Vorpal enchants.
By identical I mean, you have the same talents, same crit chance, same healing, same refresh, same divinity gain, same AP gain, etc.
Again, this held true for all modest amounts of crit, but wasn't able to test it higher.
If you could show your test figures that would be good, most people now seem to be suggesting that recovery/crit have Diminishing Returns where power, strength, wisdom and charisma do not. Meaning you need exponentially more recovery or crit for each 1% more unlike power which is a more constant increase and so easier to replace wisdom with power than it is strength with crit or cha with recovery. I haven't done these tests myself tho.
Good to see this data. It's a compelling argument for an initial wisdom roll.
I'm curious if it holds up if you change the starting assumptions. If you're after a 33% crit rating, you're going to have to pay more rating points for that in the wisdom build than in the strength version because of how much harder you get hit by diminishing returns. I don't know that the 33% magic number is the right one, but it seems to be what unspecifiederror and deistik prefer.
It also seems like some folks don't think the heal numbers need to be that high. I think getting the strength build to the same level of healing as the wisdom build would have with 0 rating points in power would be around 300 points cheaper, which goes quite a ways to close that gap. This isn't practical of course, since gear is going to have power, but it would help to see if wisdom is always advantageous.
Finally, I'm not sure if you tried a 15/18/13 (str/wis/cha) build. This shares the dex dump with the wisdom build, and it would be interesting if it was the most rating point efficient variant.
Is it easy to make that spreadsheet available for the public to copy? I'd rather work with your starting point and formulas than try to recreate it.
Actually that wiki link says that the host knows what is behind each door, which is a fact you left out of your writeup and is actually the key fact to the puzzle. If the host knows what is behind each door and he obviously will not choose to open the door with the car behind it then the odds for switching after he exposes a goat are in favour.
I am not saying that I would have gotten it right but I may have if given the correct puzzle. A quote from that wiki link: "If Monty opens another door at random and only happens to reveal a goat, then it makes no difference".
You don't need huge healing numbers, the primary job is damage mitigation and mitigating damage in this game is a lot easier than healing which is why having 100% uptime on Astral Shield and having 100% uptime on Hallowed Ground is essentially irreplaceable since those abilities give good damage mitigation and both of them can heal (Astral Shield with Divinity and Hallowed Ground with Moontouched, moontouched isn't affected by power or crit at all).
Of course once you have 100% uptime... then you don't need recovery much more and thus those two are soft caps for recovery. As far as crit goes, the 33% mark would mean on average 1 in 3 attacks proc a crit which when you consider a certain feat that gives an AoE heal on all crits means a lot more AoE heals. Not sure if that's the reason for it but it's certainly a consideration.
I was summarizing, thus why I gave the link so that if anybody was interested they could read it in more detail. Naturally the show host knows what is behind which door as they knew how to reveal the goat, if they didn't then there would be a chance to reveal the car behind the first door chosen and what I said never said that was a possibility because it isn't in this scenario.
Here you go, just wanted to finish the analysis before making it public:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsrKUoPM_yPjdFdpZHk0UG9Xa19fSnpWeE1UQU5jdVE#gid=0
I think this deserves its own thread so I'll be posting it when the stupid probationary period drops off.
I took the analysis one step further to not just answer the question of which is a better approach (Strength or Wisdom as proposed by the two current builds) but rather to answer the question of what is the best approach to spending your stat points.
The answer is as follows:
Best Base roll
Strength: 13
Charisma: 13
Intel: 10
Const: 10
Dex: 8
Best Ending Stat Allocation:
Strength: 16 (+3)
Charisma: 19 (+6)
Intel: 12 (+2)
Const: 12 (+2)
Dex: 10 (+2)
For the lazy: You can just put all your points into Wisdom & Charisma, the difference between the best and this approach is very slim.
Hope this simplifies the character creation page for everyone.
That's an elementary probability tree question. Is it mind bending? A bit, but that's what's cool about mathematics the right answer is not always the most logical.
Note: I extended the formula in an attempt to account for even larger ratings values. I have no way to judge the actual results as I haven't seen anyone post any rating->actual crit chance results above 3800. I also changed the source of the data to Kripparrian rather than Lanlin, as the youtube video plainly shows the same excel file used by Lanlin.
What exactly is your 1,000 Healing and why do you want it?
I'm guessing you are taking weapon damage adding power +damage/healing and then adding a % from wisdom?
I'm just not sure why you want 1,000 healing bonus. After spell coefficients that does not translate to much of anything. For example 1,900 power gives 76 healing bonus but only raises each tick of AS by a very marginal amount. Mine ticks for around 350 with 3,100 power and 20 wisdom.
I understand your choice of 33% crit, that is an obvious soft-cap for clerics. I just don't understand your choice for stopping at 20% crit or wanting 1,000 healing bonus. Perhaps I'm missing the reason but I just don't see it.
Another question I have is, are you just ignoring defensive stats? Do you feel they are pointless and a waste of gear stats or are your planned values just not shown?