What exactly is your 1,000 Healing and why do you want it?
Whether it's meaningful or not, in order to create an identical character the Crit build has to invest in Power to equalize the bonus obtained from Wisdom. If you download the file you can set it to whatever number you want so long as it's at least 850 (or so, i.e., greater than 21.3% from the base weapon. Since this is linear it doesn't change the answer at all).
I understand your choice of 33% recovery that is an obvious soft-cap for clerics. I just don't understand your choice for stopping at 20% crit
I stopped at 20% crit because I don't have reliable information from crit rating to synthesize a formula for values much greater than that (your guys gear is considerably better than anything I have). The formula has been verified to work only up as high as 18% crit chance from rating. If you guys have the bonus available from ratings above 3500 I'll certainly incorporate them.
It's worth pointing out that (as I mentioned earlier) if you're getting to "extreme" levels of crit rating >3000 it becomes more and more valuable to invest in Str early.
Another question I have is, are you just ignoring defensive stats? Do you feel they are pointless and a waste of gear stats or are your planned values just not shown?
No, I don't think defensive stats are "worthless" but they don't really matter for the effectiveness of your Cleric (except perhaps stamina regen).
I, too, am confused about only 20% crit. I love spreadsheets, I just don't understand the logic behind that low of crit. Also, consider if you are slotting Vorpal enchant, crit becomes even more valuable.
Vorpal and the value of Crit doesn't matter so long as the two characters end up with the same amount of Crit Chance either through strength points or through crit rating.
Suppose I wanted:
33% crit
33% Recharge
1,000 Healing Power (using your choice just because)
Now if I have stats like I do:
13 int
20 Str
20 Cha
20 Wis
I can get my desired result with 9,552 gear stats.
2,500 Recovery = 20% recharge + 3% int + 10% cha = 33%
2,427 Crit = 15.3% crit +5% base + 10% str + 3% Weapon Mastery = 33.5%
4,625 Power = (150 +healing + 700 Weapon) * 13% Wis = 1,000 Healing
Now if I drop Crit to 20% like you want I get:
2,500 Recovery
200 Crit
4,625 Power
That's only 7,325. That seems to beat your best of 8,356.
Even if I pull out Weapon Mastery's 3% I still only need 7,925 gear stats.
Edit: You were failing to account for the 5% base crit and not counting Weapon Mastery, I see that now.
I don't include the Weapon Mastery (+3%) or the Base (+5%) crit chance in the "Desired" number as I didn't want it to be skewed by anything other than the initial stat selection. The Desired number is only from Str & Crit Rating, I probably should have clarified that.
That is, a "desired" of 20% typed in the spread sheet is equivalent to a 28% effective in game including both base & Weapon Mastery.
No, I don't think defensive stats are "worthless" but they don't really matter for the effectiveness of your Cleric (except perhaps stamina regen).
This is where we disagree I think.
In my experience defensive stats have a HUGE effect on your effectiveness as a cleric because Clerics are not pure healers. I can stand and face tank things and continue spamming spells because of my defensive stats. That's time not spent dodging/running/kiting. Not to mention, dead cleric doesn't heal.
I tend to operate as a healer and a tank in every T2 I run. Without defensive stats I can't tank and I might be able to heal if I'm not too busy running all over the place trying not to die and/or not dead.
Really it comes down to what you think makes an 'effective cleric' I suppose. My criteria is simply "I don't die and neither does anyone else." My experience has been the healer/tank hybrid accomplishes that best.
Without defensive stats I can't tank and I might be able to heal if I'm not too busy running all over the place trying not to die and/or not dead.
The only "meaningful" defensive differences are:
1) Dot Resistance is greater with the STR build
2) Stamina regeneration is higher with the STR build
3) AoE damage is 2% lower with the STR build
4) Deflection chance is 1% higher with the STR build.
I edited the excel sheet to explicitly explain that the "Desired" amount is from just STR & Crit rating.
@pugastrius Thanks for making that spreadsheet public.
I tried out the 33% critical variant (with desired healing of 1000 still), and a hybrid build (20/20/20/13 str/wis/cha/int) pulls ahead there. I actually used a 25% desired critical, since I expect 3% to come from the Weapon Mastery feat and 5% base.
Since the diminishing returns equation used stops working at high values, I just changed crit to 18.6% for 3616 and had every 400 rating beyond that provide 1% more crit. I'm sure this is not how it works, but it seemed like a decent estimate for this range.
The math provides a pretty good way of quantifying the numbers, but in the end, the wisdom builds are going to win out if you want bigger heals, and the strength builds are going to win out if you want more crits.
I don't really know the value of Repurpose Soul (heal on crit). Someone might have some healing logs that show this as a percentage of overall healing, but I don't expect it to make crit builds pull ahead of +heal builds.
The 5% difference between pugastrius's crit target and mine turns into ~.5% more divine power with Righteous Rage of Tempus (more divinity on crit), and it's hard to imagine that matters too much for divinity stability. Like the stamina regen bonus from strength, it may provide a little extra wiggle room that sometimes makes a difference (though I think the same argument could be applied to the control duration reduction from wisdom).
I don't spec into Restoration Mastery (5% defense boost on crit) and I don't think that's much of an argument for crit instead of +heal.
There's also the issue of damage output, which isn't our priority, but it is a nice side benefit. I'm pretty sure the +heal builds are going to do more damage.
@pugastrius Thanks for making that spreadsheet public.
I tried out the 33% critical variant (with desired healing of 1000 still), and the strength build (24/18/18 str/wis/cha) pulls ahead there. I actually used a 30% desired critical, since I expect 3% to come from the Weapon Mastery feat.
Since the diminishing returns equation used stops working at high values, I just changed crit to 18.6% for 3616 and had every 400 rating beyond that provide 1% more crit. I'm sure this is not how it works, but it seemed like a decent estimate for this range.
The math provides a pretty good way of quantifying the numbers, but in the end, the wisdom builds are going to win out if you want bigger heals, and the strength builds are going to win out if you want more crits. With my assumptions, if you are targeting 25% or less crit, you should use a wisdom build and for 26% or more, use a strength build.
I don't really know the value of Repurpose Soul (heal on crit). Someone might have some healing logs that show this as a percentage of overall healing, but I don't expect it to make crit builds pull ahead of +heal builds.
The 10% difference between pugastrius's crit target and mine turns into ~1% more divine power with Righteous Rage of Tempus (more divinity on crit), and it's hard to imagine that matters too much for divinity stability. Like the stamina regen bonus from strength, it may provide a little extra wiggle room that sometimes makes a difference (though I think the same argument could be applied to the control duration reduction from wisdom).
I don't spec into Restoration Mastery (5% defense boost on crit) and I don't think that's much of an argument for crit instead of +heal.
There's also the issue of damage output, which isn't our priority, but it is a nice side benefit. I'm pretty sure the +heal builds are going to do more damage.
As a heads up, the "Desired" crit is actually 25% for a 33% crit rate in game with 5% from base added to the 3% weapon mastery & 25% desired.
Vorpal and the value of Crit doesn't matter so long as the two characters end up with the same amount of Crit Chance either through strength points or through crit rating.
One character with a vorpal enchant, and one without, if both otherwise have the exact same stats... the one with vorpal is going to do more of everything. How can you say that 100% crit damage v. 75% crit damage doesn't matter? It's even more with a better enchant.
How can you say that 100% crit damage v. 75% crit damage doesn't matter?
@Deistik: It's a matter of "all else equal."
If two characters have the same crit chance/healing power/recovery then adding vorpal to both characters will benefit them both equally. That is, if you start with a balanced equation and add the same value to both sides, you end up with another balanced equation.
Clearly if you add Vorpal to only one side of the equation it creates an unbalanced result.
The point is, you either end up with more crit (STR) or more healing (WIS). Slotting a vorpal directly affects how much value STR has for you (IMO). There's no other enchant that can add that kind of advantage to a stat.
The point is, you either end up with more crit (STR) or more healing (WIS).
No, you don't. The Wisdom character simply has to invest in Crit rating to make up the difference in crit chance. Meanwhile, the Strength character would have to invest in Power to make up the difference in healing. Thus you can still end up in the same spot at the end by going either direction.
It's just a matter of how much crit rating/Power is neeedd (from gear) to make up that difference (from stat allocation). My spreadsheet was designed to find the stat allocation that minimizes the amount of rating needed.
Slotting a vorpal directly affects how much value STR has for you (IMO).
To be clear, it's not that vorpal directly affects how much value STR has for you, but rather the value of your crit chance. Crit chance can be made up by crit rating.
I hadn't tried unspecifiederror's stat allocation. I end up getting 33% crit, 33% recharge and 1000 healing power with 9284 rating points using the 20/23/17/13 str/wis/cha/int, build instead of 9541 rating points with 21/21/18/12.
The Critical Teamwork (+5% party crit) feat from a TR might also shift the crit targets a bit lower, but that's unreliable.
The only "meaningful" defensive differences are:
1) Dot Resistance is greater with the STR build
2) Stamina regeneration is higher with the STR build
3) AoE damage is 2% lower with the STR build
4) Deflection chance is 1% higher with the STR build.
You're right, sorry my mind and shifted to gear stats. You do need to give gear consideration since you have limited control over what stats and stat combinations you get. For example:
Full Miracle Healers (I don't care that the set bonus is semi broken, it's still the best option we've got):
1,047 Power
1,322 Crit
1,772 Recovery (450 2 piece bonus included)
1,010 Defense
Socketed shirt/pants
154 Power
154 Crit
184 Recovery
108 Defense
Ancient Royal Set:
2153 Power (+Icon, I think 165? 2 piece bonus included)
239 crit (+Icon, 135?)
297 Recovery (+Icon, 165?)
Total of just those:
3,354 Power (+Icon)
1,715 Crit (+Icon)
2,253 Recovery (+Icon)
1,018 Defense
You then have your neck, rings, belt, pet and ALL sockets to play with.
When considering gear you also have to ask yourself if you want offensive or defensive sockets on your rings (amulets and belts also have choices if you go non-purple), your choice affects the available stat combos.
As everyone probably knows I decided I wanted to stack Regeneration and +Health and that had a significant effect on my gear choices and what stats I could get.
I'm not sure how all this will play into what you are trying to accomplish but it is something you have to consider. When you choose to get +Crit from gear instead of Str you are giving up more than Wisdom. You may have to use gear with Crit on it instead of other options to compensate for that choice.
Crit rating suffers from DR and STR doesn't. Stack WIS and tell me you can get to 50% crit in a group, because I can
It's not a matter of simply investing in crit rating... a WIS stacked character would have to have something like 10000 crit rating to get to my crit.
As I mentioned before, I can't verify the crit chance results for differences of greater that 18% to be made up for by crit rating. Yes, my formula lets me go higher than that but my formula may not even close right at the top end.
. I end up getting 33% crit, 33% recharge and 1000 healing power with 9432 rating points using the 13 int, 20 str, 20 cha, 20 wis build instead of 9541 rating points with 12 int, 21 str, 19 cha, 21 wis.
Yeah, there is definitely a crossover point somewhere in the 29% (all in, 21% desired crit rate) range that starts to favor STR. But Again, I have no idea whether those (Crit rating-> Crit Chance) numbers are actually right.
I'm not sure how all this will play into what you are trying to accomplish but it is something you have to consider. When you choose to get +Crit from gear instead of Str you are giving up more than Wisdom
@ Unspecified I agree that there are definitely going to be limits to the total amount of crit that can be even achieved through gear (which is why I can't verify my formula for higher levels of crit rating).
Here are what seem to be the best stats for total target crit ratings (still using the 1000 desired healing).
Target crit rating (includes the 8% from feats and base), followed by wis/str/cha/int, followed by gear ratings required, followed by how you get that stat distribution.
For 38% and above, strength builds are best.
I had undervalued the point in int that you get for spreading your stats around more (which unspecifiederror uses).
0
rakeleerMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Mr. Praline, A Guardian Fighter, enters the Dungeon Queue
Mr. Praline: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint. (The DM does not respond.)
Mr. Praline: 'Ello, Miss?
DM: What do you mean "miss"?
Mr. Praline: (pause)I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
DM: We're closin' for lunch.
Mr. Praline: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this cleric what joined my group not half an hour ago from this very queue.
DM: Oh yes, the, uh, the Dark Elf...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?
Mr. Praline: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!
DM: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.
Mr. Praline: Look, matey, I know a dead cleric when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
DM: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable cleric, the Dark Elf, idn'it, ay? Beautiful skin!
Mr. Praline: The skin don't enter into it. It's stone dead.
DM: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!
Mr. Praline: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up! (shouting at the cage) 'Ello, Mister Drow cleric! I've got a lovely portable altar for you if you show... (DM hits the cleric)
DM: There, he moved!
Mr. Praline: No, he didn't, that was you hitting him!
DM: I never!!
Mr. Praline: Yes, you did!
DM: I never, never did anything...
Mr. Praline: (yelling and hitting the cleric repeatedly) 'ELLO CLERIC!!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call! (Picks up cleric and thumps its head on the counter. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)
Mr. Praline: Now that's what I call a dead cleric.
DM: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!
Mr. Praline: STUNNED?!?
DM: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin' up! Dark Elves stun easily, major.
Mr. Praline: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That cleric is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not 'alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged skirmish.
DM: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for the Underdark.
Mr. Praline: PININ' for the UNDERDARK?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his back the moment I got 'im home?
DM: The Dark Elf prefers keepin' on it's back! Remarkable cleric, id'nit, squire? Lovely skin!
Mr. Praline: Look, I took the liberty of examining that cleric when I got it into the dungeon, and I discovered the only reason that it had been standing up in the first place was that it had been NAILED to it’s cat companion. (pause)
DM: Well, o'course it was nailed there! If I hadn't nailed that cleric down, it would have nuzzled up to the boss, cast a spell, and VOOM! Feeweeweewee!
Mr. Praline: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this cleric wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! 'E's bleedin' demised!
DM: No no! 'E's pining!
Mr. Praline: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This cleric is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the cat 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-cleric!! (pause)
DM: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek behind the counter) Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the queue, and uh, we're right out of clerics.
Mr. Praline: I see. I see, I get the picture.
DM: (pause) I got a Great Weapon Fighter. (pause)
Mr. Praline: Pray, does it heal?
DM: Nnnnot really.
Mr. Praline: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?
DM: N-no, I guess not. (gets ashamed, looks at his feet)
Mr. Praline: Well. (pause)
DM: (quietly) D'you.... d'you want to come back to my place?
Mr. Praline: (looks around) Yeah, all right, sure.
Very cool Ubik, but I want to reiterate two things:
1) Really higher High crit rating -> Crit chance conversion values are only estimates and have not been verified in game.
2) In no way have I valued 1 Rating of Crit vs. 1 Power or anything of the like.
1) 20% crit
2) 33% Recharge
3) 1000 average healing (700 from weapon)
Using the least amount of rating from gear as possible.
Essentially the Wisdom build ends up ahead in pretty much every case without fail but by a pretty slim margin (500 rating or roughly the equivalent of half a piece of gear).
A couple things to note:
1) I did not have the diminishing returns formula I synthesized one that followed the results posted by lanlin earlier.
2) My synthesized formula does not work for extreme disparities between Desired and Base crit/recharge (more than 17% from rating) largely because I didn't have any data points to work with.
It is possible that because of #2 the strength build may push to the lead at extremely high crit rates.
haha woot this is how i built my cleric with those exact ending stats...and i did it based on following BOTH unspecifieds advice AND lanlins advice and basically making a hybrid of them both.....balance FTW
Edit: i misread the spreadsheet i actually have a slighlty different spec 16 Str 24 wis 20 cha 12 int....but still thats fine for me
Edit2:
@edwardloxar
To start things off you should get 2 of those 2piece sets.
So for example the cheapest way to do this is to wear the 2p PvP set including Helm and Boots as well as the 2p T1 set "Sacred Hand" including Gloves and Boots. As you progress in Gearlevel u should aim for a second T1 2p for example with the "Divine Emissary" set, or aim directly for a T2 2p set (while not losing the other T1 setbonus ofc).
With T2 go for "Miracle Healer" 2p preferrably right away and finally finish up the 4p on the "Miracle Healer" set, since that one is stronger than the stats in the end.
You should refrain from wearing anything but setitems in those slots in general, since the stats from that 2p/4p setbonus are just too strong to ignore.
i think you made a mistake here but you said wear the 2p pvp set helm and boots and the sacred hand gloves and boots?? which boots should you wear?
Here are what seem to be the best stats for total target crit ratings (still using the 1000 desired healing).
Target crit rating (includes the 8% from feats and base), followed by wis/str/cha/int, followed by gear ratings required, followed by how you get that stat distribution.
For 38% and above, strength builds are best.
I had undervalued the point in int that you get for spreading your stats around more (which unspecifiederror uses).
Ubik, just noticed that some of these are wrong.
The bonus scores don't always add up to the same thing:
There should be a total of: +2 (racial) +6 + 6 + 2 + 2 = 18
However, the 31% line is: +2 +3+5+4+2 = 16. You're missing two stat points here.
Shouldn't take too much to fix it. I didn't check them all, but that one looked out of place (it didn't follow the same pattern).
Astral Shield:
Currently an immensely overpowered spell, never to leave the Hotkeybar... It grants 24% damage reduction for every person within the circle as well as providing a healing effect that ticks once a second if it is used in Divinity Mode - which should be the case 100% of the casts on this, since the heal is very strong... Additionally each tick of the heal provides the Foresight passives Damage Resist Buff to everyone.
This spell grants 10% Action Points on every use in Divinity Mode.
Casttime: 1s.
Duration: 15s
Basecooldown: 22s.
<genuine>[/SIZE]
Just curious here, was that actually tested and confirmed, the 24% damage reduction on rank 3 astral shield, because that seems wrong to me.
I just did a simple test by letting a mob smack me a good 10 times without it up, and it averaged about 650 damage per hit, and with the shield up it was only averaging 380 or so. These are rough averages at best but none the less they definitely support the idea that the extra points actually add 10% damage reduction per point additively, not multiplicatively, IE it would end up 40% damage reduction, rather than 24% as you stated.
(If someone else already brought this up, just ignore me then I guess, but I didn't read every single page to check and the main post still says 24% at least.)
Looking at that, there is a balancing act somewhere in here and that Min/Maxing really won't get optimal results which is sort of expected given how people argue over how to stat cleric right now.
I'm guessing the optimal will probably end out with Wisdom being around 22~24, Charisma 20~22 and Strength 18~20 but I'm not going to spend the time figuring out exactly where they should be.
I'm thinking Teifling might be the black sheep race that secretly shines here due to getting both 2 CHA and 2 INT/CON, by going for 2 int you cut that charisma requirement in regards to recovery (but not AP gain). Right now I'm thinking Teifling might be a better choice than Human tho I'm not willing to say the same for Half-Elf since they can get +2WIS,+2CON,+1INT and the +1 Critical Severity which maybe better, it's a hard call right now.
Just to justify why I am saying Teifling is better than Human (which isn't an easy call even now I have called it):
As a Human you get
+2 on a single stat
let's assume WIS
+3 additional feat points
you get certain feats quicker but by the end these will be 3 of the least valued feats that you will get. On what I believe to be the best feats you'd end out with an extra +2% divinity bar recharge on encounter recharge,1 1% more critical or recovery and 3% more divine power generation. Not going into specifics right now on that one, may do later.
+3% defense
not actually that useful considering we get the bulk of our damage reduction from AC, Foresight and encounters...
As a Tiefling you get
+2 CHA and +2CON or +2INT (assume INT)
The additional +2% recovery is potentially beaten by the +3 feat points, it really depends on which feat points and if those feat points can also beat out the damage bonus Tiefling gets.
+5% damage on enemy below 50% HP
~+2.5% more damage, useful for forgemaster's flame who's healing I believe is based on damage. Overall more damage helps in Solo and PvP.
+10% chance on hit to lower an attacker's power by 5%
probably less useful than Human's +3% defense but not by much.
In the end, the difference is 4 Ability Score + ~2.5% Damage vs 2 Ability Score + 3 feat points. Given Maxing Wisdom may not be the most beneficial thing around. If Wisdom is more ideal to have around the 23~24 mark Tiefling can still get that ideal value and will have 2 Ability score to spare over humans. I don't think the +3 feat points makes up that gap but I could be wrong.
I'm building a spreadsheet calculator that attempts to obtain an identical character with the least amount of total "rating" points possible. That is, Wisdom can be replicated by using enough Power, and Strength can be replicated by using enough Crit rating, etc...
Quite simply the one that can be replicated with the least points should be the preferred approach. (I have a Wisdom based Cleric as well, but I am now leaning towards Str and will post my results when I get a couple more things done).
Hit the nail on the head.
Great guide, shame about all the tension, guess there's a PvP guide building arena, of which I shall take no sides.
The real problem with speccing out a Divine Cleric is I need more points. I want a "Three Powers" build, Power of the Sun, Power of Life and Power of Oppression.
Comments
I stopped at 20% crit because I don't have reliable information from crit rating to synthesize a formula for values much greater than that (your guys gear is considerably better than anything I have). The formula has been verified to work only up as high as 18% crit chance from rating. If you guys have the bonus available from ratings above 3500 I'll certainly incorporate them.
It's worth pointing out that (as I mentioned earlier) if you're getting to "extreme" levels of crit rating >3000 it becomes more and more valuable to invest in Str early.
No, I don't think defensive stats are "worthless" but they don't really matter for the effectiveness of your Cleric (except perhaps stamina regen).
Vorpal and the value of Crit doesn't matter so long as the two characters end up with the same amount of Crit Chance either through strength points or through crit rating.
Suppose I wanted:
33% crit
33% Recharge
1,000 Healing Power (using your choice just because)
Now if I have stats like I do:
13 int
20 Str
20 Cha
20 Wis
I can get my desired result with 9,552 gear stats.
2,500 Recovery = 20% recharge + 3% int + 10% cha = 33%
2,427 Crit = 15.3% crit +5% base + 10% str + 3% Weapon Mastery = 33.5%
4,625 Power = (150 +healing + 700 Weapon) * 13% Wis = 1,000 Healing
Now if I drop Crit to 20% like you want I get:
2,500 Recovery
200 Crit
4,625 Power
That's only 7,325. That seems to beat your best of 8,356.
Even if I pull out Weapon Mastery's 3% I still only need 7,925 gear stats.
Edit: You were failing to account for the 5% base crit and not counting Weapon Mastery, I see that now.
That is, a "desired" of 20% typed in the spread sheet is equivalent to a 28% effective in game including both base & Weapon Mastery.
This is where we disagree I think.
In my experience defensive stats have a HUGE effect on your effectiveness as a cleric because Clerics are not pure healers. I can stand and face tank things and continue spamming spells because of my defensive stats. That's time not spent dodging/running/kiting. Not to mention, dead cleric doesn't heal.
I tend to operate as a healer and a tank in every T2 I run. Without defensive stats I can't tank and I might be able to heal if I'm not too busy running all over the place trying not to die and/or not dead.
Really it comes down to what you think makes an 'effective cleric' I suppose. My criteria is simply "I don't die and neither does anyone else." My experience has been the healer/tank hybrid accomplishes that best.
1) Dot Resistance is greater with the STR build
2) Stamina regeneration is higher with the STR build
3) AoE damage is 2% lower with the STR build
4) Deflection chance is 1% higher with the STR build.
I edited the excel sheet to explicitly explain that the "Desired" amount is from just STR & Crit rating.
I tried out the 33% critical variant (with desired healing of 1000 still), and a hybrid build (20/20/20/13 str/wis/cha/int) pulls ahead there. I actually used a 25% desired critical, since I expect 3% to come from the Weapon Mastery feat and 5% base.
Since the diminishing returns equation used stops working at high values, I just changed crit to 18.6% for 3616 and had every 400 rating beyond that provide 1% more crit. I'm sure this is not how it works, but it seemed like a decent estimate for this range.
The math provides a pretty good way of quantifying the numbers, but in the end, the wisdom builds are going to win out if you want bigger heals, and the strength builds are going to win out if you want more crits.
I don't really know the value of Repurpose Soul (heal on crit). Someone might have some healing logs that show this as a percentage of overall healing, but I don't expect it to make crit builds pull ahead of +heal builds.
The 5% difference between pugastrius's crit target and mine turns into ~.5% more divine power with Righteous Rage of Tempus (more divinity on crit), and it's hard to imagine that matters too much for divinity stability. Like the stamina regen bonus from strength, it may provide a little extra wiggle room that sometimes makes a difference (though I think the same argument could be applied to the control duration reduction from wisdom).
I don't spec into Restoration Mastery (5% defense boost on crit) and I don't think that's much of an argument for crit instead of +heal.
There's also the issue of damage output, which isn't our priority, but it is a nice side benefit. I'm pretty sure the +heal builds are going to do more damage.
As a heads up, the "Desired" crit is actually 25% for a 33% crit rate in game with 5% from base added to the 3% weapon mastery & 25% desired.
One character with a vorpal enchant, and one without, if both otherwise have the exact same stats... the one with vorpal is going to do more of everything. How can you say that 100% crit damage v. 75% crit damage doesn't matter? It's even more with a better enchant.
If two characters have the same crit chance/healing power/recovery then adding vorpal to both characters will benefit them both equally. That is, if you start with a balanced equation and add the same value to both sides, you end up with another balanced equation.
Clearly if you add Vorpal to only one side of the equation it creates an unbalanced result.
It's just a matter of how much crit rating/Power is neeedd (from gear) to make up that difference (from stat allocation). My spreadsheet was designed to find the stat allocation that minimizes the amount of rating needed.
To be clear, it's not that vorpal directly affects how much value STR has for you, but rather the value of your crit chance. Crit chance can be made up by crit rating.
The Critical Teamwork (+5% party crit) feat from a TR might also shift the crit targets a bit lower, but that's unreliable.
It's not a matter of simply investing in crit rating... a WIS stacked character would have to have something like 10000 crit rating to get to my crit.
You're right, sorry my mind and shifted to gear stats. You do need to give gear consideration since you have limited control over what stats and stat combinations you get. For example:
Full Miracle Healers (I don't care that the set bonus is semi broken, it's still the best option we've got):
1,047 Power
1,322 Crit
1,772 Recovery (450 2 piece bonus included)
1,010 Defense
Socketed shirt/pants
154 Power
154 Crit
184 Recovery
108 Defense
Ancient Royal Set:
2153 Power (+Icon, I think 165? 2 piece bonus included)
239 crit (+Icon, 135?)
297 Recovery (+Icon, 165?)
Total of just those:
3,354 Power (+Icon)
1,715 Crit (+Icon)
2,253 Recovery (+Icon)
1,018 Defense
You then have your neck, rings, belt, pet and ALL sockets to play with.
When considering gear you also have to ask yourself if you want offensive or defensive sockets on your rings (amulets and belts also have choices if you go non-purple), your choice affects the available stat combos.
As everyone probably knows I decided I wanted to stack Regeneration and +Health and that had a significant effect on my gear choices and what stats I could get.
I'm not sure how all this will play into what you are trying to accomplish but it is something you have to consider. When you choose to get +Crit from gear instead of Str you are giving up more than Wisdom. You may have to use gear with Crit on it instead of other options to compensate for that choice.
As I mentioned before, I can't verify the crit chance results for differences of greater that 18% to be made up for by crit rating. Yes, my formula lets me go higher than that but my formula may not even close right at the top end.
Yeah, there is definitely a crossover point somewhere in the 29% (all in, 21% desired crit rate) range that starts to favor STR. But Again, I have no idea whether those (Crit rating-> Crit Chance) numbers are actually right.
@ Unspecified I agree that there are definitely going to be limits to the total amount of crit that can be even achieved through gear (which is why I can't verify my formula for higher levels of crit rating).
Target crit rating (includes the 8% from feats and base), followed by wis/str/cha/int, followed by gear ratings required, followed by how you get that stat distribution.
28% (24/17/19/13) 8177 16+2+6, 14+3, 14+5, 11+2
29% (23/18/19/13) 8416 16+2+5, 14+4, 14+5, 11+2
30% (23/18/19/13) 8629
31% (23/19/18/13) 8829 16+2+5, 14+5, 14+4, 11+2
32% (23/20/17/13) 9047 16+2+5, 14+6, 14+3, 11+2
33% (23/20/17/13) 9284
34% (22/21/17/13) 9528 16+6, 14+2+5, 14+3, 11+2
35% (22/22/16/13) 9772 16+6, 14+2+6, 14+2, 11+2
36% (22/22/16/13) 10044
37% (22/22/16/13) 10377
38% (19/24/17/12) 10812 16+3, 16+2+6, 12+5, 10+2
For 38% and above, strength builds are best.
I had undervalued the point in int that you get for spreading your stats around more (which unspecifiederror uses).
Mr. Praline, A Guardian Fighter, enters the Dungeon Queue
Mr. Praline: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.
(The DM does not respond.)
Mr. Praline: 'Ello, Miss?
DM: What do you mean "miss"?
Mr. Praline: (pause)I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
DM: We're closin' for lunch.
Mr. Praline: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this cleric what joined my group not half an hour ago from this very queue.
DM: Oh yes, the, uh, the Dark Elf...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?
Mr. Praline: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!
DM: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.
Mr. Praline: Look, matey, I know a dead cleric when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
DM: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable cleric, the Dark Elf, idn'it, ay? Beautiful skin!
Mr. Praline: The skin don't enter into it. It's stone dead.
DM: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!
Mr. Praline: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up! (shouting at the cage) 'Ello, Mister Drow cleric! I've got a lovely portable altar for you if you show...
(DM hits the cleric)
DM: There, he moved!
Mr. Praline: No, he didn't, that was you hitting him!
DM: I never!!
Mr. Praline: Yes, you did!
DM: I never, never did anything...
Mr. Praline: (yelling and hitting the cleric repeatedly) 'ELLO CLERIC!!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call!
(Picks up cleric and thumps its head on the counter. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)
Mr. Praline: Now that's what I call a dead cleric.
DM: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!
Mr. Praline: STUNNED?!?
DM: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin' up! Dark Elves stun easily, major.
Mr. Praline: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That cleric is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not 'alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged skirmish.
DM: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for the Underdark.
Mr. Praline: PININ' for the UNDERDARK?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his back the moment I got 'im home?
DM: The Dark Elf prefers keepin' on it's back! Remarkable cleric, id'nit, squire? Lovely skin!
Mr. Praline: Look, I took the liberty of examining that cleric when I got it into the dungeon, and I discovered the only reason that it had been standing up in the first place was that it had been NAILED to it’s cat companion.
(pause)
DM: Well, o'course it was nailed there! If I hadn't nailed that cleric down, it would have nuzzled up to the boss, cast a spell, and VOOM! Feeweeweewee!
Mr. Praline: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this cleric wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! 'E's bleedin' demised!
DM: No no! 'E's pining!
Mr. Praline: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This cleric is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the cat 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-cleric!!
(pause)
DM: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek behind the counter) Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the queue, and uh, we're right out of clerics.
Mr. Praline: I see. I see, I get the picture.
DM: (pause) I got a Great Weapon Fighter.
(pause)
Mr. Praline: Pray, does it heal?
DM: Nnnnot really.
Mr. Praline: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?
DM: N-no, I guess not. (gets ashamed, looks at his feet)
Mr. Praline: Well.
(pause)
DM: (quietly) D'you.... d'you want to come back to my place?
Mr. Praline: (looks around) Yeah, all right, sure.
1) Really higher High crit rating -> Crit chance conversion values are only estimates and have not been verified in game.
2) In no way have I valued 1 Rating of Crit vs. 1 Power or anything of the like.
haha woot this is how i built my cleric with those exact ending stats...and i did it based on following BOTH unspecifieds advice AND lanlins advice and basically making a hybrid of them both.....balance FTW
Edit: i misread the spreadsheet i actually have a slighlty different spec 16 Str 24 wis 20 cha 12 int....but still thats fine for me
Edit2:
i think you made a mistake here but you said wear the 2p pvp set helm and boots and the sacred hand gloves and boots?? which boots should you wear?
Ubik, just noticed that some of these are wrong.
The bonus scores don't always add up to the same thing:
There should be a total of: +2 (racial) +6 + 6 + 2 + 2 = 18
However, the 31% line is: +2 +3+5+4+2 = 16. You're missing two stat points here.
Shouldn't take too much to fix it. I didn't check them all, but that one looked out of place (it didn't follow the same pattern).
I updated the original. The 23s are 16+2+5 instead of 16+2+3.
Just curious here, was that actually tested and confirmed, the 24% damage reduction on rank 3 astral shield, because that seems wrong to me.
I just did a simple test by letting a mob smack me a good 10 times without it up, and it averaged about 650 damage per hit, and with the shield up it was only averaging 380 or so. These are rough averages at best but none the less they definitely support the idea that the extra points actually add 10% damage reduction per point additively, not multiplicatively, IE it would end up 40% damage reduction, rather than 24% as you stated.
(If someone else already brought this up, just ignore me then I guess, but I didn't read every single page to check and the main post still says 24% at least.)
Looking at that, there is a balancing act somewhere in here and that Min/Maxing really won't get optimal results which is sort of expected given how people argue over how to stat cleric right now.
I'm guessing the optimal will probably end out with Wisdom being around 22~24, Charisma 20~22 and Strength 18~20 but I'm not going to spend the time figuring out exactly where they should be.
I'm thinking Teifling might be the black sheep race that secretly shines here due to getting both 2 CHA and 2 INT/CON, by going for 2 int you cut that charisma requirement in regards to recovery (but not AP gain). Right now I'm thinking Teifling might be a better choice than Human tho I'm not willing to say the same for Half-Elf since they can get +2WIS,+2CON,+1INT and the +1 Critical Severity which maybe better, it's a hard call right now.
Just to justify why I am saying Teifling is better than Human (which isn't an easy call even now I have called it):
As a Human you get
+2 on a single stat
let's assume WIS
+3 additional feat points
you get certain feats quicker but by the end these will be 3 of the least valued feats that you will get. On what I believe to be the best feats you'd end out with an extra +2% divinity bar recharge on encounter recharge,1 1% more critical or recovery and 3% more divine power generation. Not going into specifics right now on that one, may do later.
+3% defense
not actually that useful considering we get the bulk of our damage reduction from AC, Foresight and encounters...
As a Tiefling you get
+2 CHA and +2CON or +2INT (assume INT)
The additional +2% recovery is potentially beaten by the +3 feat points, it really depends on which feat points and if those feat points can also beat out the damage bonus Tiefling gets.
+5% damage on enemy below 50% HP
~+2.5% more damage, useful for forgemaster's flame who's healing I believe is based on damage. Overall more damage helps in Solo and PvP.
+10% chance on hit to lower an attacker's power by 5%
probably less useful than Human's +3% defense but not by much.
In the end, the difference is 4 Ability Score + ~2.5% Damage vs 2 Ability Score + 3 feat points. Given Maxing Wisdom may not be the most beneficial thing around. If Wisdom is more ideal to have around the 23~24 mark Tiefling can still get that ideal value and will have 2 Ability score to spare over humans. I don't think the +3 feat points makes up that gap but I could be wrong.
Hit the nail on the head.
Great guide, shame about all the tension, guess there's a PvP guide building arena, of which I shall take no sides.
The real problem with speccing out a Divine Cleric is I need more points. I want a "Three Powers" build, Power of the Sun, Power of Life and Power of Oppression.