Just remember, that sadly the D&D community has a history of INCESSANT whining. Just read the old usenet newsgroups to see what I mean. I can also tell you back in the days of BBS, D&D fans just loved to ***** and whine.
The worst is when a new edition or major rule book is released.
I am not sure why this is, it seems some D&D fans really consider themselves more "expert" than others, or worse, actually feel they can design better games than the professionals.
Of course, some constructive criticism is useful, but sadly it often goes way beyond that.
You see similar chronic dissatisfaction here.
While I have no doubt this game will have flaws and will require some corrections as time goes by (as all MMOs do), there's no doubt in my mind they've captured the essence of D&D very nicely.
Indeed, with the Foundry, a key ingredient of D&D, (being able to tell a story, to craft plots, NPCs and gather friends to experience them with their characters) is now available. It's been available before in other flavors of Neverwinter, but I think this version is the most accessible.
So while I can't answer for those who claim this just isn't D&D, I'll tell you, that this kind of mewling, has been a significant part of D&D culture, since the days people griped about the Bard when the first edition AD&D player's handbook was released. I can remember, to this day, fat guys, chewing cheeseburgers at the gaming table, lecturing me about psionics and it was clear to him, that segment of the AD&D books was a clear path, D&D was doomed and that "Chivalry and Sorcery" would be the new standard within a year.
I don't separate myself from the culture either. I have deeply opinionated as well. I much prefer Pathfinder's system to what 4th Edition is. I am even more skeptical of "D&D Next" (or whatever Wizards is branding it), that will release next year. From what I understand it's a sort of "paint by numbers" rule system where you pick and choose rule constructs for your gaming table. Yuck.
But so what?
Show me 100 D&D fans and I'll show you 100 different opinions on whether the Tiefling should have been chosen over the Gnome, or how multi-classing should be be handled.
My point is, what "feels like D&D" is subjective and those who are adamant that this "isn't D&D" are talking out of the wrong <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, again (as I am prone to do myself).
The bottom line is, this game is clearly branded as D&D, fully endorsed by the stewards of D&D and plays and functions much like you'd expect a D&D MMO to look and function. I can quibble about this or that in the game as well, but this is D&D, more than that, in many ways this is the future of D&D.
Personally, I can't wait to get started.
Excellent post and lucky for me it was on the first page of this wonderful topic.
The only thing I can add is this: This game's greatest strength will be through the community content.
Neverwinter feels like D&D... after all, it's full of people arguing about whether or not it's "real" D&D on the Internet. Isn't that the best sign of something being D&D?
Did you guys play mt quest? It may not be evry refined yet, but it clearly shows that almost all the elements of PnP campaign design can be used in foundry.
Though I will be taking this one down after beta and replacing it with something else.
0
cayddMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 9Arc User
There really are three reasons I feel it falls short of DnD. And they all have to do with character individuality.
Statistic choices mean far less than gear choices. This happens in any game... at end game. Example: If I have a 18 CON fighter, and a 20 CON fighter, that makes the difference of about 40 HP. At level 10, I find a pair of boots with 230 HP bonus. That's equivalent to +11 CON. Now, with this, I don't care about the numbers. What I care about is that you making your character more strong, wise, charismatic, etc. has zero effect upon the game. We might as well start off with all "10's". This means no individuality with our choice.
Second, zero choice of powers at level-up, no choice of gear, everything is on rails. Part of the best fun of DnD was making a character that was odd, had an ability that few took, just to use it in ways that other people didn't think of. I jsut don't like being limited like that when in DnD, there are options, and devout cleric A at fifth level and devout cleric B at fifth level may play very differently depending upon power selection.
Third, every class can do what any other class can do skill wise. Pop a pill, detect traps. Sniff some dust, open religious items. Why even have skills in the game at all? Everyone is exactly the same, sans the trinity. And even then, most of those roles are hybridized to some degree.
As far as environment, general play, the sounds, the monsters you fight, all of that is DnD. So quite a bit of it is there already. Just seems to have fallen short on the character customization options (which, oddly enough, Cryptic usually does really well with).
I 100% agree with this statement. Customization and differentiation is a big portion to the D&D aspect, and this game is lacking it.
0
dragon95337Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited March 2013
first of all i agree with both sides of this thread and even the third side as well
first of all the idea of the feel of D&D is personal and is steaped in the individuals lore of the game
whether that are a fan of GreyHawk, Forgotten Realms ETC.
then there is the idea of the feel for the game mechanics the richness of customization and building
extentions of oneself that you would like to see in the game
and lastly the third the game as it exists now and the middle road of steeping a world in deep Forgotten Realms storyline
but building the mechanics around a late80-90 MMO model thats going to be FTP but needs to bring in money to its developers
so as to be worth wild
i put this out there most of the arguments here are over not feeling like D&D are mostly over customization and game mechanics
because this game is not like the pen and paper mechanics we have grown up with are not present (such as saves,a real AC, feats, skills etc) as even though Cryptic managed to tie a few forth edition concepts into the game such as feats and stats that
go 3-20 but that is really where the D&D character machanic ended and the game became just another MMO
because at its roots D&D pen and paper is the system/machanics that the DMs wrapped a story around to give the game
its direction and history to immerce its players
and for some that is the crux of the problem they are having with this MMO
as for me this game cryptic has made every effort at immercing its players in a D&D MMO
but what is D&D and what will make them money in order to justify building it in the first place
money is the motive for this games creation of couse
neverwinter books and previous PC games have done
extremely well capturing the hearts and minds of its players creating a suitably large
fanbase for them.
so in my opinion as a Forgotten Realms MMO based on Neverwinter it dose have the feel of Neverwinter the environse of neverwinter
the wide assortments of monsters. They even have my old somping grounds from the Neverwinter expansions for the RPG PC game
in my opinion as a MMO based on the Forgotten Realms Neverwinter they are doing a excellent job and have made it very D&D like
and well worth playing for awhile at least
i'll just consider this a MMO with D&D stylings
but as far a keeping my intrest the missing game mechanics of DDO, LORTO, CO, Oblivion etc were you can create your own character
with skills, feats the ability to have my fighter, thief, mage or cleric weild a staff or wear robes if i so choose is what is going to loose
alot of hard core fans as i can always play wizardry , ragnorok or many of the other nestalga mmos to get a simular character creation
mechanic that they have here and still get that dungeon delve feeling and at least they give the option of a archer class
and have a store + scroll ability to identify found items that in game moneys can be used to pay for not real dollars
in the end this is more of a heroes of neverwinter game rather than neverwinter game if you were compairing this to anything
both have a D&D feel but neverwinther is the one that was more like the pen and pencil game
with all the options the other is more like a coin op game with pre generated templates to use
i would rather them put alittle more time into this and get it right than put out a bad peice of work
and from what it seems is the game could use some
hopefully this give some one something to think about
as well as clearifying some things
0
baconstewMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
The primary reason why we cannot have an unlimited (or a lot) of customization on spec is the fact that the Dev's would never be able to "Balance" them for PvP. Sad to say it but the downfall of game play of Neverwinter will come just to that.
PvP in MMO's is the biggest drawback to making the MMO truely great. If the Dev's would only focus on a pure PvE MMO, then - and only then will we see more customizations, etc.
Instead we all have to live in the world of (PvP determines how PvE will play) with MMO's.
I have read a few times in a few of these threads people saying that the game doesn't "feel" like D&D.
I have had the exact opposite reaction over the Beta weekend so I figured I would ask and hope this doesn't cause a flame out or anything.
This is by far the most D&D feeling game that I have played online. Other than playing an actual sit down game of paper and pencil D&D this is the best D&D fix I've found. DDO didn't do it for me and I couldn't stand to play it for mostly mechanics and graphics reasons.
So I'm curious, those that say it doesn't feel like D&D can you... nicely... expand on that a bit?
Neverwinter feels like D&D... after all, it's full of people arguing about whether or not it's "real" D&D on the Internet. Isn't that the best sign of something being D&D?
This guy knows his edition wars.
0
timoth214Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited March 2013
not a fan of every warrior lookin the same. should be a dwarf warrior with a axe if you want not just the same long sword everyone else in the game has. some better gear selection would be good. hopefully it will come on launch. the feel of dnd is in character creation and in a mmo you need to have items and gear sets that let you do that. ie the cleric in platemail and shield and mace. not some crazy big holy symbol and a thong
Neverwinter feels like D&D... after all, it's full of people arguing about whether or not it's "real" D&D on the Internet. Isn't that the best sign of something being D&D?
This is the best statement I've ever read!
0
jirodyneMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
It's a fantasy world, with elves, mages, warriors, knights, gods, cities, and kobolds. KOBOLDS. What other kinda game besides DnD had Kobolds running around being bards?!
anyways. What was I say? Oh yes!
Magic, Knights, Cities, Orcs, Kobolds, Undead, Gods, and other stuff. That instantly, to me, sounds like DnD. Mainly the Kobolds, Gods, undead, and Knights/Paladins.
However, does this game feel like a DnD game?
........
No, not really.
Whats the story so far from 1-25ish?
Well you crash. Then you fight your way to the city, then you... Just run errands. Over and over. Over and over. Then oh, a mage tries to become a god and cause the spellplague? Whatever it is. Then.... You run more errands.
DnD you're spose to be out adventuring! going places far and wide! with rich story, evil villains and epic funny party members!
Instead here you get quests... Boring, generic, forgettable quests with no kinda story or reasoning or motivation at all.
The grouping/partying system is added on as a side note for dungeons only, which i might add have no story either! All I got from the Cloak Tower was that Orcs, because at that level there was only orcs around, were in a tower of some kind and I was slaughtering them just for the hell of it. The grouping system was bad, implimented bad, had so many problems and broken that it felt like the game was punishing you for grouping more than having fun with friends.
In DnD, from lvl 1-8, you could have visited 7 different villages, gone through 4 caves, 2 castles, a spider nest, and slain an undead lich lord trying to bring back an army of undead farmers. Here, from lvl 1-10, you're fighting... Bandits... Bandits in one small part of town... That are just there cause every city needs a bad part of town for the poor. Then 10-16 you're fighting orcs... and orcs... and orcs... in another part of the SAME CITY..... Then we can leave the city finally for lvl 20-25! Thank god! Now we can adventure and explore and... Fight... Bandits/pirates again.... in the ruins next to the city.... That is not Dungeons and Dragons. That right there is not even worthy of being an adventure/action fantasy book. That is the knights of Neverwinter slacking off because they are idiots. Again. Enough of that tho, onward to the next point!
Villains! Surely there are epic, well known, most likely very evil villains!.....
......
.....
.....
......
.....
.......
I can't even remember a single boss, what their story was, why they were doing what they were doing, can't even remember why I was slaughtering them other than they were at the end of the quest and I had to kill them for a chest.
So, does this feel like Dungeons and Dragons? No. Not at all. Not even a little bit.
Instead here you get quests... Boring, generic, forgettable quests with no kinda story or reasoning or motivation at all.
Yep, totally D&D...we even have the guy at the table who completely ignores all the flavor text, background information and NPC dialog, then complains that the story sucks.
It's remarkable how well Cryptic has captured the true essence of the tabletop!
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
0
kotliMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 577
edited March 2013
Is it D&D well it feels like D&D to me, but then I am not using gameplay mechanics as the thing that defines D&D but the Lore. Most of the non D&D cword are using the PnP dice mechanics etc as the definition of D&D from what I read.
The only thing I agree with is that there needs to be more meaningful choices in game IE choices have more weight behind them, but they need to balanced though or you create problems.
That is Player A who takes feats X, Y and Z is overpowered versus the Player B who don't take these feats, this leads to Player A whining about how easy it is or Player B whining about how hard it is given that they both can play the same missions vs the same mobs. Then you get some people from group A or B quitting because its too easy/hard and most people will find player A build on the net and copy it.
In PnP with a DM the DM can pull out harder mobs vs Player A and weaker ones vs Player B so they both get challenged to a reasonable degree, I mean theres nothing stopping the DM throwing 2,000,000 dragons at the players if he wishes.
You cant create an MMO that models PnP as closely as some wish that will make a good game (the only way it will work is if the game has a DM per group who can create/change stuff on the fly, but there wont be enough people who want to play the DM).
0
samnich7Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited April 2013
^lol, what about admins? Or rewards to certain players that somehow qualify to be a DM (someone smarter can come up with a way to do THAT)?? Btw this message is not serious, although an interesting hypothetical conversation could arise.
0
libertine17Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited April 2013
While I enjoy playing NWO and D&D4, neither seems like D&D to me due to the game mechanics. I started in D&D back in the late '70s when the game was presented in three tan pamphlets and the only character classes were fighter, mage, and cleric. Even through the trainwreck of AD&D2E to the improvements of 3E and 3.5E you can see conceptual continuity but at 4E everything changes except the use of some terms.
I never played in Forgotten Realms in PnP games, my group featured home grown worlds exclusively (my only exposure to FR is through various computer games, and I really don't care for it compared to what I was used to in PnP), so the fact that NWO is set in FR is meaningless to me.
This game felt very D&D to me. What is a campaign but a bunch of errands? Where does adventure start? Something happens and you gotta fix it. Sounds D&D to me.
All of you fanboi's who dropped $199 make me lol. Of course you are going to be defensive when us 30 something D&D vets make critical comments on the game. I wouldn't want to spend that much on a game that turns out to be a disappointment *cough* SWTOR...anyway, enjoy your game. The biggest let down in this title is the lack of customization and choices in character development. It doesn't even matter that this is a D&D title and we should have more options...As an MMO there should be more options. Heck, GW2 has more control over character development. I don't think this game is close to ready for release. Add more classes or give the existing classes more freedom.
The game feels like D&D so far. They have done a great job with that. Honestly I would like 3.5 better but I have to admit that 4e makes a better MMO.
Still there were some things during the BW that I was missing:
- Weapons
My GF found one axe he could use from lvl 1-26. All quest rewards and other weapons were swords. No hammer, mace etc and only one axe. I don't want my dwarf to wield a sword. (but i suppose they will add more weapons skins)
- Item class restriction
I see why they did it. If you can roll for an unidentified item you need class restrictions, otherwise you have no idea if you should roll for that item. (although during the BW 95% chose need on items they could not use as well)
While I dont like the restrictions I can live with them, as long as it does not lead to characters only having 1 weapon type. Like 1 class only gets swords, 1 only hammers etc. I do want some choice.
- Companion customization
In STO I get the whole char creator for my bridge officers. I can use the uniforms I have unlocked and truly create the companions I want. Now maybe we get this in the future or I was just blind to find out how to do it but since they have something like that in STO why not in NWO?
- Story
We have no alignments, ok. The campaign seems to be mainly for a good character. I would love some more choices and different quests. So far I only got to lvl 26 so I can only speak for the beginning. But choices are a vital part for any RPG, I would love some.
- Character customization
Why are the available gods so limited? They state the choice has no game play impact, so why limit them? Why are there no evil gods? Even if the campaign is more for good characters there will be plenty of people who love to RP. If it is just a cosmetic choice let them pick what they want.
Also the game could use more skins for weapons and armor but since it is only a beta I understand why the skins are still limited.
First off, there will NEVER be a MMO that will feel completely like PnP D&D. If you come into one thinking it might you are setting yourself up for failure im afraid.
Secondly, as far as looking for a D&D feel, this is the closest Ive ever felt to that in an MMO. Honestly Im not a big fan of MMOs typically, but due to the fact that this one does sort of have that feel I will play this one. I honestly felt that Neverwinter has more of a D&D feel than DDO does lol.
I honestly felt that Neverwinter has more of a D&D feel than DDO does lol.
To each his own... DDO has far more control over creating and leveling characters, and at its worst (which I would say is right now) is far more in line with mechanics. DDO has its classes wide open, you can free form roll stats, mix classes, and choices made drastically affect the playability and outcome of the character. I can make over 100 of each class that play totally different from each other. I can fail to spot or find traps, I can fail to disable it. I can choose an alignment for a character or a weapon, I can put a shield on any character. My character enhancements and feats are OPTIONS TO USE, they are not ALL I HAVE TO USE.
Neither game is designed as an emulator or duplicate of any edition of PnP. It can't be. It simply can be based on an edition. Cryptic recently made the mistake of saying Neverwinter is NOT a 4e specific build. That is the worst thing to say. Be honest, say you are based on 4e. This is nowhere in the ballpark of 3.5 and earlier. Its 4e based.
Turbine sold their game as unique in that they were a game based around a predetermined set of rules. They took their bumps and bruises when it veered too far away from those rules. But at the end of the day, up until the dummying down of the game, they were close enough that most were satisfied.
Cryptic's Neverwinter has a long long looong way to go, before the characters FEEL like D&D characters to me. Right now, they feel like Superheroes with their legs cut off.
... of saying Neverwinter is NOT a 4e specific build. That is the worst thing to say. Be honest, say you are based on 4e. This is nowhere in the ballpark of 3.5 and earlier. Its 4e based...
That is the truth. 4e is not this bad at customization. It is not based on 4e mechanics at all but attempts to mask those mechanics.
I am sure that a few build experts like @denkasaeba can shed more light on it, but 4e is very customizable as much as 3.5e (though i limits insta-deaths and some unbalances). The builds can vary greatly and there are good, bad and worse builds in particular paragon path of particular class.
I can only hope for a good D&D game based on 4e mechanics one day, but this is not it.
I am sure that a few build experts like @denkasaeba can shed more light on it, but 4e is very customizable as much as 3.5e (though i limits insta-deaths and some unbalances).
I'm certainly not a "4e build expert" by any means, but I am highly knowledgeable at building 3.5 and earlier characters. I can see me having fun with this game... but its a shame so much great work has been put into the user generated content, but the character creation & building process is more reminiscent of LEGO then any edition of D&D.
True, but this is also just been the beta, things can change on the character creation front. I mean surely they will be adding new content for the PCs from time to time. Either way, I like both games. Maybe Im just biased towards Neverwinter due to my long love for the Neverwinter Nights franchise and their toolset lol.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited April 2013
Aandrethegiant, Cryptic has said 4E is the inspiration for the game, not a literal translation of the rules. And 4E is more than just character rules, there's an entire 4E campaign settings devoted to the Forgotten Realms and Neverwinter.
You need to broaden your definitions a little if you're going to make sense of Neverwinter. It was never intended to be a tabletop simulation of 4E. It's a D&D-themed action MMO that draws inspiration from the 4E material.
And let's get real. You CAN'T "make a 100 of each class that plays totally different from each other" in DDO. That's hyperbole of the worse magnitude. Sure, you can make variations in the build, but when you come down to the actual gameplay there's not a lot of variation there, especially if you're trying to build a character that's considered viable late in the game.
I'm certainly not a "4e build expert" by any means, but I am highly knowledgeable at building 3.5 and earlier characters. I can see me having fun with this game... but its a shame so much great work has been put into the user generated content, but the character creation & building process is more reminiscent of LEGO then any edition of D&D.
It think it was intentional decision. Instead of going with converting the PnP rules into workable format which may or may not work, they went with established mechanics of MMO which can always be easily tweaked.
They could have gone deeper into PnP based 4e rules, but then they could never have achieved balance or introduced PvP (unless they took a few years perfecting it).
Though many people tout 4e as 'balanced' and MMO based ruleset, that is not actually true and direct conversion of PnP will be even more unbalanced than 3.5e
Off-topic but interesting
There was a lot of discussion on why translation of 4e PnP rules will not be balanced video game once and the reason that is so is supposed to be something that brings balance in PnP. The fact that unlike 3,5e you can't have insta-deaths and maximised builds. Strangely, maximization brings balance to MMO!
...
And let's get real. You CAN'T "make a 100 of each class that plays totally different from each other" in DDO. That's hyperbole of the worse magnitude. Sure, you can make variations in the build, but when you come down to the actual gameplay there's not a lot of variation there, especially if you're trying to build a character that's considered viable late in the game.
I don't want to derail this thread, so you can just PM me a brief description of 10 Ranger builds that PLAY differently, at your leisure.
Sorry can't. Don't get me wrong. I think it is quite interesting and I would have actually done it, but right now I have too many projects in my hands...
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
And let's get real. You CAN'T "make a 100 of each class that plays totally different from each other" in DDO. That's hyperbole of the worse magnitude. Sure, you can make variations in the build, but when you come down to the actual gameplay there's not a lot of variation there, especially if you're trying to build a character that's considered viable late in the game.
Sure you can. Actual gameplay is up to the person, not specifically the build. The variations are a marriage of your gameplay and game mechanics. This is why to this day... seven years after the game was released, there's STILL people building different varieties of the available classes. And many of them play vastly different. There's literally tens of thousands of variations.
There is simply no comparison to DDO character creation/building at this point, I'm sorry Ironzerg. Hopefully by the same time next year, Cryptic can say they are close. But right now, its the character creation process which is this game's Achilles heel at this juncture for many of us.
I don't want to derail this thread, so you can just PM me a brief description of 10 Ranger builds that PLAY differently, at your leisure.
If you decide to play all those 100 builds the same (and I used 100 different ways to build a class an a simplification, it's far more than 100 ways) then you essentially have one character. Many in DDO see only one way to build a toon, their idea of efficient or ideal.
Have fun and search the DDO ranger class forum to answer your question... however by your definition, you wont be satisfied with the answer.
It think it was intentional decision. Instead of going with converting the PnP rules into workable format which may or may not work, they went with established mechanics of MMO which can always be easily tweaked.
Of course they did, and any old school D&D player should easily recognize that fact, whether they played PnP or just dabbled in the official D&D RPG computer software products.
As far as balance goes, D&D was based originally on imbalance. MMOs perpetually seek balance. This is a whole other animal! PvP balance is yet another animal!
Unfortunately PvP in this game will change this game for the worse because of the limitation of the single shard. It will peghole further the game in a never-ending search for a balance that will never be realized, all at the expense of the PvEer. This is why they should have stuck with making the best PvE mmo possible.
... realized, all at the expense of the PvEer. This is why they should have stuck with making the best PvE mmo possible.
The recent decision to tweak mage separately for PvE and PvP is a step in good direction. So I think the will and technology exists with them to change the PvP and PvE mechanics independently of each other. So I am not worried about that (though I am worried about other things).
Comments
Excellent post and lucky for me it was on the first page of this wonderful topic.
The only thing I can add is this: This game's greatest strength will be through the community content.
Though I will be taking this one down after beta and replacing it with something else.
I 100% agree with this statement. Customization and differentiation is a big portion to the D&D aspect, and this game is lacking it.
first of all the idea of the feel of D&D is personal and is steaped in the individuals lore of the game
whether that are a fan of GreyHawk, Forgotten Realms ETC.
then there is the idea of the feel for the game mechanics the richness of customization and building
extentions of oneself that you would like to see in the game
and lastly the third the game as it exists now and the middle road of steeping a world in deep Forgotten Realms storyline
but building the mechanics around a late80-90 MMO model thats going to be FTP but needs to bring in money to its developers
so as to be worth wild
i put this out there most of the arguments here are over not feeling like D&D are mostly over customization and game mechanics
because this game is not like the pen and paper mechanics we have grown up with are not present (such as saves,a real AC, feats, skills etc) as even though Cryptic managed to tie a few forth edition concepts into the game such as feats and stats that
go 3-20 but that is really where the D&D character machanic ended and the game became just another MMO
because at its roots D&D pen and paper is the system/machanics that the DMs wrapped a story around to give the game
its direction and history to immerce its players
and for some that is the crux of the problem they are having with this MMO
as for me this game cryptic has made every effort at immercing its players in a D&D MMO
but what is D&D and what will make them money in order to justify building it in the first place
money is the motive for this games creation of couse
neverwinter books and previous PC games have done
extremely well capturing the hearts and minds of its players creating a suitably large
fanbase for them.
so in my opinion as a Forgotten Realms MMO based on Neverwinter it dose have the feel of Neverwinter the environse of neverwinter
the wide assortments of monsters. They even have my old somping grounds from the Neverwinter expansions for the RPG PC game
in my opinion as a MMO based on the Forgotten Realms Neverwinter they are doing a excellent job and have made it very D&D like
and well worth playing for awhile at least
i'll just consider this a MMO with D&D stylings
but as far a keeping my intrest the missing game mechanics of DDO, LORTO, CO, Oblivion etc were you can create your own character
with skills, feats the ability to have my fighter, thief, mage or cleric weild a staff or wear robes if i so choose is what is going to loose
alot of hard core fans as i can always play wizardry , ragnorok or many of the other nestalga mmos to get a simular character creation
mechanic that they have here and still get that dungeon delve feeling and at least they give the option of a archer class
and have a store + scroll ability to identify found items that in game moneys can be used to pay for not real dollars
in the end this is more of a heroes of neverwinter game rather than neverwinter game if you were compairing this to anything
both have a D&D feel but neverwinther is the one that was more like the pen and pencil game
with all the options the other is more like a coin op game with pre generated templates to use
i would rather them put alittle more time into this and get it right than put out a bad peice of work
and from what it seems is the game could use some
hopefully this give some one something to think about
as well as clearifying some things
PvP in MMO's is the biggest drawback to making the MMO truely great. If the Dev's would only focus on a pure PvE MMO, then - and only then will we see more customizations, etc.
Instead we all have to live in the world of (PvP determines how PvE will play) with MMO's.
This guy knows his edition wars.
You mean MUDding? lol.
This is the best statement I've ever read!
anyways. What was I say? Oh yes!
Magic, Knights, Cities, Orcs, Kobolds, Undead, Gods, and other stuff. That instantly, to me, sounds like DnD. Mainly the Kobolds, Gods, undead, and Knights/Paladins.
However, does this game feel like a DnD game?
........
No, not really.
Whats the story so far from 1-25ish?
Well you crash. Then you fight your way to the city, then you... Just run errands. Over and over. Over and over. Then oh, a mage tries to become a god and cause the spellplague? Whatever it is. Then.... You run more errands.
DnD you're spose to be out adventuring! going places far and wide! with rich story, evil villains and epic funny party members!
Instead here you get quests... Boring, generic, forgettable quests with no kinda story or reasoning or motivation at all.
The grouping/partying system is added on as a side note for dungeons only, which i might add have no story either! All I got from the Cloak Tower was that Orcs, because at that level there was only orcs around, were in a tower of some kind and I was slaughtering them just for the hell of it. The grouping system was bad, implimented bad, had so many problems and broken that it felt like the game was punishing you for grouping more than having fun with friends.
In DnD, from lvl 1-8, you could have visited 7 different villages, gone through 4 caves, 2 castles, a spider nest, and slain an undead lich lord trying to bring back an army of undead farmers. Here, from lvl 1-10, you're fighting... Bandits... Bandits in one small part of town... That are just there cause every city needs a bad part of town for the poor. Then 10-16 you're fighting orcs... and orcs... and orcs... in another part of the SAME CITY..... Then we can leave the city finally for lvl 20-25! Thank god! Now we can adventure and explore and... Fight... Bandits/pirates again.... in the ruins next to the city.... That is not Dungeons and Dragons. That right there is not even worthy of being an adventure/action fantasy book. That is the knights of Neverwinter slacking off because they are idiots. Again. Enough of that tho, onward to the next point!
Villains! Surely there are epic, well known, most likely very evil villains!.....
......
.....
.....
......
.....
.......
I can't even remember a single boss, what their story was, why they were doing what they were doing, can't even remember why I was slaughtering them other than they were at the end of the quest and I had to kill them for a chest.
So, does this feel like Dungeons and Dragons? No. Not at all. Not even a little bit.
Ash nazg thrakatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
Yep, totally D&D...we even have the guy at the table who completely ignores all the flavor text, background information and NPC dialog, then complains that the story sucks.
It's remarkable how well Cryptic has captured the true essence of the tabletop!
The only thing I agree with is that there needs to be more meaningful choices in game IE choices have more weight behind them, but they need to balanced though or you create problems.
That is Player A who takes feats X, Y and Z is overpowered versus the Player B who don't take these feats, this leads to Player A whining about how easy it is or Player B whining about how hard it is given that they both can play the same missions vs the same mobs. Then you get some people from group A or B quitting because its too easy/hard and most people will find player A build on the net and copy it.
In PnP with a DM the DM can pull out harder mobs vs Player A and weaker ones vs Player B so they both get challenged to a reasonable degree, I mean theres nothing stopping the DM throwing 2,000,000 dragons at the players if he wishes.
You cant create an MMO that models PnP as closely as some wish that will make a good game (the only way it will work is if the game has a DM per group who can create/change stuff on the fly, but there wont be enough people who want to play the DM).
I never played in Forgotten Realms in PnP games, my group featured home grown worlds exclusively (my only exposure to FR is through various computer games, and I really don't care for it compared to what I was used to in PnP), so the fact that NWO is set in FR is meaningless to me.
Still there were some things during the BW that I was missing:
- Weapons
My GF found one axe he could use from lvl 1-26. All quest rewards and other weapons were swords. No hammer, mace etc and only one axe. I don't want my dwarf to wield a sword. (but i suppose they will add more weapons skins)
- Item class restriction
I see why they did it. If you can roll for an unidentified item you need class restrictions, otherwise you have no idea if you should roll for that item. (although during the BW 95% chose need on items they could not use as well)
While I dont like the restrictions I can live with them, as long as it does not lead to characters only having 1 weapon type. Like 1 class only gets swords, 1 only hammers etc. I do want some choice.
- Companion customization
In STO I get the whole char creator for my bridge officers. I can use the uniforms I have unlocked and truly create the companions I want. Now maybe we get this in the future or I was just blind to find out how to do it but since they have something like that in STO why not in NWO?
- Story
We have no alignments, ok. The campaign seems to be mainly for a good character. I would love some more choices and different quests. So far I only got to lvl 26 so I can only speak for the beginning. But choices are a vital part for any RPG, I would love some.
- Character customization
Why are the available gods so limited? They state the choice has no game play impact, so why limit them? Why are there no evil gods? Even if the campaign is more for good characters there will be plenty of people who love to RP. If it is just a cosmetic choice let them pick what they want.
Also the game could use more skins for weapons and armor but since it is only a beta I understand why the skins are still limited.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
Secondly, as far as looking for a D&D feel, this is the closest Ive ever felt to that in an MMO. Honestly Im not a big fan of MMOs typically, but due to the fact that this one does sort of have that feel I will play this one. I honestly felt that Neverwinter has more of a D&D feel than DDO does lol.
http://www.menzoberranzan2.net/info/
To each his own... DDO has far more control over creating and leveling characters, and at its worst (which I would say is right now) is far more in line with mechanics. DDO has its classes wide open, you can free form roll stats, mix classes, and choices made drastically affect the playability and outcome of the character. I can make over 100 of each class that play totally different from each other. I can fail to spot or find traps, I can fail to disable it. I can choose an alignment for a character or a weapon, I can put a shield on any character. My character enhancements and feats are OPTIONS TO USE, they are not ALL I HAVE TO USE.
Neither game is designed as an emulator or duplicate of any edition of PnP. It can't be. It simply can be based on an edition. Cryptic recently made the mistake of saying Neverwinter is NOT a 4e specific build. That is the worst thing to say. Be honest, say you are based on 4e. This is nowhere in the ballpark of 3.5 and earlier. Its 4e based.
Turbine sold their game as unique in that they were a game based around a predetermined set of rules. They took their bumps and bruises when it veered too far away from those rules. But at the end of the day, up until the dummying down of the game, they were close enough that most were satisfied.
Cryptic's Neverwinter has a long long looong way to go, before the characters FEEL like D&D characters to me. Right now, they feel like Superheroes with their legs cut off.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
That is the truth. 4e is not this bad at customization. It is not based on 4e mechanics at all but attempts to mask those mechanics.
I am sure that a few build experts like @denkasaeba can shed more light on it, but 4e is very customizable as much as 3.5e (though i limits insta-deaths and some unbalances). The builds can vary greatly and there are good, bad and worse builds in particular paragon path of particular class.
I can only hope for a good D&D game based on 4e mechanics one day, but this is not it.
I'm certainly not a "4e build expert" by any means, but I am highly knowledgeable at building 3.5 and earlier characters. I can see me having fun with this game... but its a shame so much great work has been put into the user generated content, but the character creation & building process is more reminiscent of LEGO then any edition of D&D.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
http://www.menzoberranzan2.net/info/
You need to broaden your definitions a little if you're going to make sense of Neverwinter. It was never intended to be a tabletop simulation of 4E. It's a D&D-themed action MMO that draws inspiration from the 4E material.
And let's get real. You CAN'T "make a 100 of each class that plays totally different from each other" in DDO. That's hyperbole of the worse magnitude. Sure, you can make variations in the build, but when you come down to the actual gameplay there's not a lot of variation there, especially if you're trying to build a character that's considered viable late in the game.
It think it was intentional decision. Instead of going with converting the PnP rules into workable format which may or may not work, they went with established mechanics of MMO which can always be easily tweaked.
They could have gone deeper into PnP based 4e rules, but then they could never have achieved balance or introduced PvP (unless they took a few years perfecting it).
Though many people tout 4e as 'balanced' and MMO based ruleset, that is not actually true and direct conversion of PnP will be even more unbalanced than 3.5e
Off-topic but interesting
There was a lot of discussion on why translation of 4e PnP rules will not be balanced video game once and the reason that is so is supposed to be something that brings balance in PnP. The fact that unlike 3,5e you can't have insta-deaths and maximised builds. Strangely, maximization brings balance to MMO!
That is not a hyperbola, actually you can.
Sorry can't. Don't get me wrong. I think it is quite interesting and I would have actually done it, but right now I have too many projects in my hands...
I don't want to derail this thread, so you can just PM me a brief description of 10 Ranger builds that PLAY differently, at your leisure.
Sure you can. Actual gameplay is up to the person, not specifically the build. The variations are a marriage of your gameplay and game mechanics. This is why to this day... seven years after the game was released, there's STILL people building different varieties of the available classes. And many of them play vastly different. There's literally tens of thousands of variations.
There is simply no comparison to DDO character creation/building at this point, I'm sorry Ironzerg. Hopefully by the same time next year, Cryptic can say they are close. But right now, its the character creation process which is this game's Achilles heel at this juncture for many of us.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
If you decide to play all those 100 builds the same (and I used 100 different ways to build a class an a simplification, it's far more than 100 ways) then you essentially have one character. Many in DDO see only one way to build a toon, their idea of efficient or ideal.
Have fun and search the DDO ranger class forum to answer your question... however by your definition, you wont be satisfied with the answer.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Of course they did, and any old school D&D player should easily recognize that fact, whether they played PnP or just dabbled in the official D&D RPG computer software products.
As far as balance goes, D&D was based originally on imbalance. MMOs perpetually seek balance. This is a whole other animal! PvP balance is yet another animal!
Unfortunately PvP in this game will change this game for the worse because of the limitation of the single shard. It will peghole further the game in a never-ending search for a balance that will never be realized, all at the expense of the PvEer. This is why they should have stuck with making the best PvE mmo possible.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
The recent decision to tweak mage separately for PvE and PvP is a step in good direction. So I think the will and technology exists with them to change the PvP and PvE mechanics independently of each other. So I am not worried about that (though I am worried about other things).