Perfectly ok for an action MMO, you might say... true... but not for one that uses even the most basic D&D mechanics, I say.
No one argues that mechanics are the same as in D&D. We argue that they do not have to be for this to feel like a D&D game. D&D is not just a system. There are D&D fans that have never played pnp D&D - there are games, novels, TV series, comics that are D&D without ever having D&D mechanics.
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warbaby3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
No question, but the majority of the people you attract with a D&D label will be D&D players... and those have expectations... all I'm saying.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
edited March 2013
Not really. Everybody has heard of D&D and everybody knows what it is about but relatively few people know the rules by heart and have played extensively. I think most of the players will be happy to have a good system that works and would not care that it does not follow D&D ruleset as D&D nowadays is much more than a ruleset(and tbh the later editions of the ruleset have somewhat fallen out of grace even for the D&D fans).
As I said before - it is not D&D because it literally is not D&D but everything else feels pretty much D&Dish.
So..... let me get this clear. After reading this thread, I came to the following conclusions. People are saying the game doesn't feel like D&D because the -beta testing- lacks customization options and fewer classes, or because they feel that the ability scores don't matter as much as items? Lack of choices?
Doesn't anyone else feel that's strange? This is a beta test, after all. You want fewer variables to butt heads against when having massive testing, no? Thus, the whole "start off with four traditional classes" thing - front line fighter, acrobatic thief, ranged-control wizard, healy cleric?
Isn't all that kind of the point? See what mechanics work, what needs tweaking? The four iconic D&D classes tend to cover the most ground, in terms of basic mechanics. AoEs, agile nova classes, healing, tanking? Once you get the basics out of the way, then you add all the other things. I fully imagine we'll have a wide variety of actual classes and customization at official launch. As for the ability score thing? Well, shouldn't we mention that as something to fix before the release? And the lack of choices? Umm... don't you want fewer choices so they can test the game out and see if it works before adding all that in?
The only complaint I've seen that doesn't seem to revolve around the game still being in testing is the one that basically says "Wait, this isn't D&D because it doesn't use 3.X edition rules!" There are some people out there that simply cannot see something as D&D without the Vancian spellcasting system, or the alignment system. To which I say, fair enough - my preference for the warlock and bardic music in 3.x should tell you my thoughts on spellcasters loud and clear.
No one argues that mechanics are the same as in D&D. We argue that they do not have to be for this to feel like a D&D game. D&D is not just a system. There are D&D fans that have never played pnp D&D - there are games, novels, TV series, comics that are D&D without ever having D&D mechanics.
I personally think that in a distance future the personalization of own charachter could be possible due to better services, servers, computers, workers behind the dialogue and so on BUT i fear that by that time computer RPGs could have been gone and tastes in people changed. Transporting an RPGs under the aspects of action games is possible, just not yet. Right now the scheme is: smash, grind and level up, STOP. In the future you could texting by voice while you play, have a real response from an A.I. refered to the quests and lore; better computer that can run a real movement of a character ( not just flashing and stuff); a better personalization of spells; a own design of rooms and so on and so on.
I know the limits of today but i'm directed towards games with this kind of improvement and don't stay fossilized on games that don't evolve right in their mechanic for too much long without evolving .... that's why I abandoned WoW.
Before comparing an RPG to an MMO keep this in mind: AN ADVENTURE HAS AN END. when you gain enough power in your story probably is the time to stop that campaign and having fun starting a new campaign with new characters and new adventure from zero to hero. In MMOs there is no end and continues adding power over power making statistics and spells and realism of the game itself RIDICULOUS resulting a moth stronger than a demon and a mage tougher than a tiger. They will never stop if the market keeps going good and new content will come out, even if this means destroying the sense of all the game. Theese are the problem with MMOs.
My personal suggestion? Have fun right now smashing some skulls and looting powerful items ( if that is what entertains you)
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Some people have made exellent points in pointing out that mechanics in D&D have changed so much over the decades to a point were its getting pointless to try and make out what is D&D. Think D&D is an IP in total decline that can only survive in spirit by online means. Look at how they are trying to change editions every few years because thats the only way they can survive. Maybe some younger players dont agree but i can say that i'm really too old to spend countless hours over a single encounter, manage to get every one in the gang playing on sundays. Not to mention that almost everyone i know that plays has moved to other remote places.
That said i cant say i like how they have implemented this game the same way i didnt like the D&D console games that came out in the last decade. If anything these games have hindered the IP more then anything. This is still a D&D game as much as i am unhappy with it.
oh and Mephi9017: This was not a beta test, it was a marketing move gone sour. They never actually expected us to test, they expected us to talk about it.
We are playing a watered down version for beta testing. Makes sense to limit some of the variables and head straight for bug reports.
Historically, a game is never completely judged until it's first expansion, let alone the CB.
I don't think anything branded as D&D needs any hype, its a brand that many have loved for decades.... which is a dual edged blade. Expectations are very high from the old school pnp folk
Of course you will never get that pnp feel in an MMO, so I am looking forward to a very immersive world for my 'action combat' game.
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vix6uMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
"We are playing a watered down version for beta testing."
WHY do people always assume this?? You are playing what they consider finished enough for you to play, EVERY Beta I've been in fan-bois spout this nonsence, then the game goes live and looky-there its the same. They will be adding some polish yes, and maybe soon some new sub-classes, but they wont be changing the core mechanics. Stop deluding yourself into thinking the game will magically change in the next 2-3 weeks before Open Beta (Release). The best we can hope for is some buffs / tweaks / additional abilities.
This game is not the high expectation for a D&D player; It's more the expectation of a ps2-action-rpg player ( Demon Stone and co. )
but is exactly more likable for the D&D flavour
I was a bit disappointed as well when I realized what they took out of DnD (4e) to design this game. While, i'm accepting for what it is, I would hope there is still time for development.
First off, i just want to say that arguments against changing anything based on "this is 4e...sorry you don't like 4e" is fallicious. It lacks a lot of things you can do in 4e--including customization. I have a wizard at level 1. I intrinsically have proficiency in quarterstaff, dagger, etc. The game is definitely "on rails" and 4e allows for customization (spell choices, weapons choices, feat choices). Along with damage types, different saving throws etc.
The next argument "well, this is an MMO," doesn't wash either. To say adding 4e character customization would not translate well to an MMO hasn't been shown. Why? It worked fine in DDO. It worked fine in every other action, real-time D&D video game. So why not this one?
I disagree with a previous post that D&D is mainly about lore and story-telling. That's one dimension of D&D gaming. I play d&d games because I like experimenting. I love making a new character. I love trying out new feats. I have yet to play any d&d game where I made the same exact type of character. For me, and a lot of others, it about the world, and how your character grows and interacts with it. And that has been accomplished in other d&d PC games and an MMO.
So, my vote is for adding more elements of d&d mechanics, including character customization and the guy who was talking about stats not making a difference---very good, thoughtful post. the classes are a bit too homogenized.
Just remember, that sadly the D&D community has a history of INCESSANT whining. Just read the old usenet newsgroups to see what I mean. I can also tell you back in the days of BBS, D&D fans just loved to ***** and whine.
The worst is when a new edition or major rule book is released.
I am not sure why this is, it seems some D&D fans really consider themselves more "expert" than others, or worse, actually feel they can design better games than the professionals.
Of course, some constructive criticism is useful, but sadly it often goes way beyond that.
You see similar chronic dissatisfaction here.
While I have no doubt this game will have flaws and will require some corrections as time goes by (as all MMOs do), there's no doubt in my mind they've captured the essence of D&D very nicely.
Indeed, with the Foundry, a key ingredient of D&D, (being able to tell a story, to craft plots, NPCs and gather friends to experience them with their characters) is now available. It's been available before in other flavors of Neverwinter, but I think this version is the most accessible.
So while I can't answer for those who claim this just isn't D&D, I'll tell you, that this kind of mewling, has been a significant part of D&D culture, since the days people griped about the Bard when the first edition AD&D player's handbook was released. I can remember, to this day, fat guys, chewing cheeseburgers at the gaming table, lecturing me about psionics and it was clear to him, that segment of the AD&D books was a clear path, D&D was doomed and that "Chivalry and Sorcery" would be the new standard within a year.
I don't separate myself from the culture either. I have deeply opinionated as well. I much prefer Pathfinder's system to what 4th Edition is. I am even more skeptical of "D&D Next" (or whatever Wizards is branding it), that will release next year. From what I understand it's a sort of "paint by numbers" rule system where you pick and choose rule constructs for your gaming table. Yuck.
But so what?
Show me 100 D&D fans and I'll show you 100 different opinions on whether the Tiefling should have been chosen over the Gnome, or how multi-classing should be be handled.
My point is, what "feels like D&D" is subjective and those who are adamant that this "isn't D&D" are talking out of the wrong <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, again (as I am prone to do myself).
The bottom line is, this game is clearly branded as D&D, fully endorsed by the stewards of D&D and plays and functions much like you'd expect a D&D MMO to look and function. I can quibble about this or that in the game as well, but this is D&D, more than that, in many ways this is the future of D&D.
Personally, I can't wait to get started.
I say you are building a straw-man argument. Every game has whiners. And just because someone whines doesn't mean their opinion isn't valid. The boards will definitely influence the devs. And I'm against stifling people who disagree with some design decision.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited March 2013
I'm more of an old school D&D player, and admit to only having read stuff pertaining to 4e. One thing that I miss while playing the Beta is the ability to pick and choose things like weapons that i want to use. I was hoping to be able to make a mace & shield, heavy armor wearing Cleric, and what I get is a weird ranged DPS-ing cleric. That just doesn't sit right with me. The slow run speed and annoyingly long recharge on the dashing also annoys me.
I was hoping to find a fast action-packed game where maneuvering and position mid-battle meant more. What I'm finding is that all the rooting abilities means that I'm gonna get smacked a lot because I initiated a spell a split-second before the monster did.
The environments look great, but the character models feel a bit too squat. I was also hoping to find something akin to a tailor who would allow me to dye/color my gear.
I will say this, though - the game has a lot of polish, and I like little things like the ability to bring up a trail to follow to your next objective. I wish the game didn't have "mouse look always on" though. There's something more strategic feeling in being able to select your enemy then stay locked on to them, even if you move around.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
First off, i just want to say that arguments against changing anything based on "this is 4e...sorry you don't like 4e" is fallicious. It lacks a lot of things you can do in 4e--including customization. I have a wizard at level 1. I intrinsically have proficiency in quarterstaff, dagger, etc. The game is definitely "on rails" and 4e allows for customization (spell choices, weapons choices, feat choices). Along with damage types, different saving throws etc.
No, you don't have more customization in 4e - yes, you choose a weapon but all the weapons work the same way and in some cases it doesn't even matter what weapon you choose because your powers do not use it. Case and point - the wizard. He can have dagger, quarterstaff, orb, etc. in his hands but the damage is based on a roll + intelligence modifier - the weapon that he wears does not matter at all.
The power selection is also deceptively wide you choose a power and then five levels later you replace it with another power that does the same thing better. In NWO the powers work well from the moment you acquire them until the end and they do not need to be replaced with a better version of themselves because they upgrade. Also most of the powers in 4e differ by what you roll - intelligence, strength, dexterity against will, reflex, fortitude - but that does not work in action MMO where you should hit if you aim properly. The player skill and the time it requires to use a skill replace the artificial physical properties you cannot get in a turn-based environment. So the power options are kinda limited as well.
NWO allows for customization - visual as well as gameplay-wise. You have feats, you have power selection and you have gear choices. They just work differently that they work in PnP D&D.
The next argument "well, this is an MMO," doesn't wash either. To say adding 4e character customization would not translate well to an MMO hasn't been shown. Why? It worked fine in DDO. It worked fine in every other action, real-time D&D video game. So why not this one?
DDO is one of the worst MMOs out there - it is slow, it is unbalanced as hell and it has the worst type of lack of customization ever - most of the builds you can make simply don't work. Also most of the action games based on D&D don't follow the system all that close either. Some have nothing to do with it. Also NWN, IWD, PS:T and BG are not real-time, they have turn-based combat.
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tykytysMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
See now, I find DDO to be one of the best MMOs for actual grouping, adventuring, experiencing a self-contained storyline in each dungeon. It's really far from perfect, of course. It doesn't work well at all as a solo game (even with NPC "hirelings") and the mechanics (as you note) are wonky at best. Still, there's something to be said for loading up the game, grouping up with either strangers or a static bunch of folks, and running through a module that has puzzles to solve and skill checks to pass. So, no, I can't agree with you that DDO is one of the worst MMOs out there.
See now, I find DDO to be one of the best MMOs for actual grouping, adventuring, experiencing a self-contained storyline in each dungeon. It's really far from perfect, of course. It doesn't work well at all as a solo game (even with NPC "hirelings") and the mechanics (as you note) are wonky at best. Still, there's something to be said for loading up the game, grouping up with either strangers or a static bunch of folks, and running through a module that has puzzles to solve and skill checks to pass. So, no, I can't agree with you that DDO is one of the worst MMOs out there.
Agreed!
DDO has one of the better customization and ability to make viable builds, especially with the epic levels they have now. NWO just does not feel as DnD as DDO does to me or have anywhere near the same customization options.
See now, I find DDO to be one of the best MMOs for actual grouping, adventuring, experiencing a self-contained storyline in each dungeon. It's really far from perfect, of course. It doesn't work well at all as a solo game (even with NPC "hirelings") and the mechanics (as you note) are wonky at best. Still, there's something to be said for loading up the game, grouping up with either strangers or a static bunch of folks, and running through a module that has puzzles to solve and skill checks to pass. So, no, I can't agree with you that DDO is one of the worst MMOs out there.
Without question DDO wins in the character customization and party grouping functionality. DDO is getting worse however... after every update (more bugs, and walking further away from the 3.5e core mechanics), and I believe the new UI/enhancements will take DDO so far away from 3.5 edition that the link will be practically impossible to make without bursting out in uncontrollable laughter. After seven long years, I can see Turbine is finally getting desperate - and I believe 2013 will be a bad year for DDO from a subscriber standpoint.
That being said... NWO needs to take a page out of DDO's book when it comes to functional party grouping features, and I don't mean only forming a group. NWO suffers from its Cooperative MMO coding framework (It was a completed coop mmo in 10/11). Today, it often feels like a solo game thats been busted open with a sledgehammer to play like a group game.
.... NWO needs to take a page out of DDO's book when it comes to functional party grouping features, ...
Agreed. Back in the day when I told anyone that I did Epic this and this with 6 rogue or 6 cleric party; they used to take screwdrivers just to open their jaws loose. Sometimes they used to be more tough than a solo mage doing it.
Recently I told same old dialog to someone to show them content can be as made challenging as you want it to - and the person was like, no bigge - anyone can do it. Something died inside of me.
Turbine is making a big mistake with DDO. The easier it gets... the less and less people feel the need to group (pug life is dead, waits for over an hour for majority of pug quests, as the wait increases but the need for a full group decreases). The more they dummy it down for "access reasons", the closer to NWO it becomes. That's bad bad news for a 7 yo mmo, even one as good as DDO.
In a mostly simplistic summary, the way I see it... DDO is all character customization with great combat but nothing to do (running the same quests hundreds of times), and NWO will have no character customization with ok combat (great combat if you remove rooting and add to-hit penalty and mob opportunity attacks) and an unlimited number of things to do!
It's Cryptic's game to win at this point. But they need to face facts that certain things need to change. Change #1 must be to make our characters feel like OUR CHARACTERS.
Turbine is making a big mistake with DDO. The easier it gets... the less and less people feel the need to group (pug life is dead, waits for over an hour for majority of pug quests, as the wait increases but the need for a full group decreases). The more they dummy it down for "access reasons", the closer to NWO it becomes. That's bad bad news for a 7 yo mmo, even one as good as DDO.
In a mostly simplistic summary, the way I see it... DDO is all character customization with great combat but nothing to do (running the same quests hundreds of times), and NWO will have no character customization with ok combat (great combat if you remove rooting and add to-hit penalty and mob opportunity attacks) and an unlimited number of things to do!
It's Cryptic's game to win at this point. But they need to face facts that certain things need to change. Change #1 must be to make our characters feel like OUR CHARACTERS.
I know your guild isn't based on Khyber so YMMV compared to mine but it's not usually that difficult to get a pug group going. Sure they have made it easier to solo things and the pug scene does reflect that somewhat but I have noticed if you do bother to put a lfm up you do get bites and it is not that long.
I certainly have not waited for an hour in any pugs, I will say I do not pug as much either though but that is more because I have my core of guildies I run with.
Seriously NWO biggest weapon is the foundry and that is DDO's greatest weakness but I must disagree that "It's Cryptic's game to win at this point" lots of content won't do jack if peeps don't like how the game plays or feels and I feel this way because I don't believe Cryptic is willing to make such drastic changes at this point.
I'll say some of the recent addition from u17 patch1 in DDO have me going meh though, namely the ASAH.
.... lots of content won't do jack if peeps don't like how the game plays or feels and I feel this way because I don't believe Cryptic is willing to make such drastic changes at this point.
We feel 100% the same on this one, even if the reasons we reached the same conclusion might be a tad different.
I think what aandre was trying to say is that DDO has kind of stangized and its effort is to retain the player base rather than to get more players. It is an old game which has already reached its peak in players and if it can retain it longer, it will get considerable profits.
NW on other hand has a lot of future and possibilities. Provided devs play it right, it can grow a lot. If they botch it up, they botch it up. Thus it is "It's Cryptic's game to win at this point" hence the success of cryptic depends on itself and it will probably not compete with DDO (though comparisons will be drawn). That is how I understood his post.
Well for the most part, Gill understood it right. DDO's ability to attract new blood has stagnated. The effort is not as much on retaining the player base as it should be though. The effort appears to be geared towards squeezing whatever it can (money) out of the remaining player base. And without a program designed to attract new blood as well though, its a very big gamble. With more bugs than its ever had, and frayed wits of ViPs, many of us in DDO are cringing at the thought of what exactly the playerbase count will look like after its next paid expansion. (Those that happen to be in a good guild however like pilf3r and I am, are not nearly as concerned.)
But still, DDO is nowhere near dead. Its old, but its character creation/development is far more advanced and varied than it is in Neverwinter. Its the character feel, and the combat that's created so many loyal followers of DDO. But it is looking like an old game though, even with the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> turned all the way up. For these reasons and others (boredom because of lack of new content, anger with changing game mechanics or ez buttons, etc), DDO is finally vulnerable. I just don't think Neverwinter is ready to compete just yet, sorry to say.
Where Cryptic fails, is thinking people will care enough about these cookie cutter builds. Only the mmo community will, en masse. But hardcore D&D folk know full well the character creation "options" are slim pickens/dismal here. But I know how close Cryptic is.
Do character creation/leveling right (this means add a LOT more variety to build options, skills, feats), find a better solution to "balanced combat" than rooting/additional delays (kiting and pvp are the reasons given for why they added rooting), clean up the Foundry and add an in-depth tutorial, and NWO can compete with DDO and any other game it wants to.
NWO shares the best IP in the history of gaming. Its time for them to realize that they are developing a D&D game which so happens to be an mmo, and not a cooperative mmo game which happens to reflect an mmo and D&D. In other words, NWO is in serious need of an identity, in my opinion.
So yes, in my mind, it's Cryptic's game to win (or lose) at this point. Technology and brilliant art design talent is certainly on their side. Is it the right engine to pull off a believable D&D program though? That's the real question. I'm still upbeat for both games, I just want the 2 best games possible
wifeaggr0Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 16Arc User
edited March 2013
I dont believe the (cookie cutter build) predetermined build will make the game fail, say looking down the track, after what 8 years (ddo has been up?), you take that into account and look at the builds available at that time, could be over 50+ classes to choose from, over DDO's what 15? its sort of how 4thE rolls, yeah the wizard might not have all the spells from 4thEd handbook to choose from, so what! they have assigned them to the specific class accordingly, they might not be the right ones for the class at this point but thats what beta is for yeah, for us to voice that.
DDO is cult status/cult following, dedicated fans keeping the game alive thats all, its dead to every other joe and the only other way to make it salvageble might be if the game got a graphical over-hall, much like wow did, if you could call it that, but how long would that last.
Neverwinter wants to be different, not a clone with better graphics, its just gotta play right, but based on the rooting changes
there's issues all round, and no doubt based on there re-advertising of there class trailers from the original ones floated.
None of those dev made quests scale to party size? i see a few more issues than just builds at this point.
The main story of this game is going to drive you down the same path, doing it over and over i can see, UGC cant beat that, if i did every ugc job on that board and didn't touch the story quest, can i get out of protectors enclave and go to the tower district?, we are confined to areas based on unlocking by story mode yeah? there's no openedness if you can call it that, i cant just roll where i want to!
...The main story of this game is going to drive you down the same path, doing it over and over i can see, UGC cant beat that, if i did every ugc job on that board and didn't touch the story quest, can i get out of protectors enclave and go to the tower district?, we are confined to areas based on unlocking by story mode yeah? there's no openedness if you can call it that, i cant just roll where i want to!
You can. The lock is based on story and level. i.e. if you want to go to blacklake district, you may need to be lvl 10. But if you completed previous story, you can go there even if you are lvl 8.
Thus if you want, you can go to any area just by playing foundry.
I dont believe the (cookie cutter build) predetermined build will make the game fail.... , after what 8 years (ddo has been up?), you take that into account and look at the builds available at that time, could be over 50+ classes to choose from, over DDO's what 15?
No no no. You dont know a thing about DDO, nor do you understand the challenges Neverwinter faces.
Even if DDO started with one class (it started with more) in Feb 2006 (Headstart), that one class would of had more customization than all NWO builds (these aren't classes per say, they are specific, tightly shrink-wrapped builds) combined. Dude, its not close. I've had my hand in thousands of builds in DDO. Yes, thousands. I know.
DDO is not dead. Dont read my last post and think you understand how DDO works.
Lets keep things in perspective. DDO is not dying... its simply at a weakened point. But its retention rate is legendary. It pulls people back in and can do it for years to come because of the depth of its character creation and leveling (13 classes, 8 races and hundreds of thousands of possible combinations.) People CARE about their characters there. And how they play.
I can spend the next 3 months building bards... one a day, each one different. Same with fighter, barbarian, wizard, monk, artificer, druid, you name it. I can mix class, work skills. I can build it right, build it wrong, and everything in between. I can miss a trap, miss a swing, fail a save, fail my DC or succeed at them all. I can build for a new player that started today, or I can build for a vet. Believe it or not, it all makes a difference. None of this will happen in Neverwinter. In NWO, we play Cryptic's builds. All 4-5 of them.
Foundry missions alone wont keep people coming back here, it will be their connection with their characters, and how they play, which will matter most. You watch.
Agreed, NWO will never have the amount of builds that DDO has. Not even 10% .. but a lot of that has to do with 4e
I do wish they wouldn't have pigeon-holed templates vs classes, but I am pretty sure that is a residual effect from the co-op that the game was created to be.
We need to give them time to properly port this to an MMO before much criticism on varieties of builds. There is still 2-3 different cleric builds I can think of within the beta parameters. More will come.
Think of it as 4e with only the very first book published lol... or perhaps an 2012 version of Demon Stone ported to an MMO.
I have more faith in what is to come, partially due to the amount of stuff that can be found in the game files. The foundry is also amazing and with this community will be the strongest feature in any game on the market.
Done every flavor of D&D over 2 decades and this will be yet another.
Comments
As I said before - it is not D&D because it literally is not D&D but everything else feels pretty much D&Dish.
Doesn't anyone else feel that's strange? This is a beta test, after all. You want fewer variables to butt heads against when having massive testing, no? Thus, the whole "start off with four traditional classes" thing - front line fighter, acrobatic thief, ranged-control wizard, healy cleric?
Isn't all that kind of the point? See what mechanics work, what needs tweaking? The four iconic D&D classes tend to cover the most ground, in terms of basic mechanics. AoEs, agile nova classes, healing, tanking? Once you get the basics out of the way, then you add all the other things. I fully imagine we'll have a wide variety of actual classes and customization at official launch. As for the ability score thing? Well, shouldn't we mention that as something to fix before the release? And the lack of choices? Umm... don't you want fewer choices so they can test the game out and see if it works before adding all that in?
The only complaint I've seen that doesn't seem to revolve around the game still being in testing is the one that basically says "Wait, this isn't D&D because it doesn't use 3.X edition rules!" There are some people out there that simply cannot see something as D&D without the Vancian spellcasting system, or the alignment system. To which I say, fair enough - my preference for the warlock and bardic music in 3.x should tell you my thoughts on spellcasters loud and clear.
I agree with this whole heartily.
I know the limits of today but i'm directed towards games with this kind of improvement and don't stay fossilized on games that don't evolve right in their mechanic for too much long without evolving .... that's why I abandoned WoW.
Before comparing an RPG to an MMO keep this in mind: AN ADVENTURE HAS AN END. when you gain enough power in your story probably is the time to stop that campaign and having fun starting a new campaign with new characters and new adventure from zero to hero. In MMOs there is no end and continues adding power over power making statistics and spells and realism of the game itself RIDICULOUS resulting a moth stronger than a demon and a mage tougher than a tiger. They will never stop if the market keeps going good and new content will come out, even if this means destroying the sense of all the game. Theese are the problem with MMOs.
My personal suggestion? Have fun right now smashing some skulls and looting powerful items ( if that is what entertains you)
That said i cant say i like how they have implemented this game the same way i didnt like the D&D console games that came out in the last decade. If anything these games have hindered the IP more then anything. This is still a D&D game as much as i am unhappy with it.
oh and Mephi9017: This was not a beta test, it was a marketing move gone sour. They never actually expected us to test, they expected us to talk about it.
Historically, a game is never completely judged until it's first expansion, let alone the CB.
I don't think anything branded as D&D needs any hype, its a brand that many have loved for decades.... which is a dual edged blade. Expectations are very high from the old school pnp folk
Of course you will never get that pnp feel in an MMO, so I am looking forward to a very immersive world for my 'action combat' game.
WHY do people always assume this?? You are playing what they consider finished enough for you to play, EVERY Beta I've been in fan-bois spout this nonsence, then the game goes live and looky-there its the same. They will be adding some polish yes, and maybe soon some new sub-classes, but they wont be changing the core mechanics. Stop deluding yourself into thinking the game will magically change in the next 2-3 weeks before Open Beta (Release). The best we can hope for is some buffs / tweaks / additional abilities.
but is exactly more likable for the D&D flavour
First off, i just want to say that arguments against changing anything based on "this is 4e...sorry you don't like 4e" is fallicious. It lacks a lot of things you can do in 4e--including customization. I have a wizard at level 1. I intrinsically have proficiency in quarterstaff, dagger, etc. The game is definitely "on rails" and 4e allows for customization (spell choices, weapons choices, feat choices). Along with damage types, different saving throws etc.
The next argument "well, this is an MMO," doesn't wash either. To say adding 4e character customization would not translate well to an MMO hasn't been shown. Why? It worked fine in DDO. It worked fine in every other action, real-time D&D video game. So why not this one?
I disagree with a previous post that D&D is mainly about lore and story-telling. That's one dimension of D&D gaming. I play d&d games because I like experimenting. I love making a new character. I love trying out new feats. I have yet to play any d&d game where I made the same exact type of character. For me, and a lot of others, it about the world, and how your character grows and interacts with it. And that has been accomplished in other d&d PC games and an MMO.
So, my vote is for adding more elements of d&d mechanics, including character customization
I say you are building a straw-man argument. Every game has whiners. And just because someone whines doesn't mean their opinion isn't valid. The boards will definitely influence the devs. And I'm against stifling people who disagree with some design decision.
I was hoping to find a fast action-packed game where maneuvering and position mid-battle meant more. What I'm finding is that all the rooting abilities means that I'm gonna get smacked a lot because I initiated a spell a split-second before the monster did.
The environments look great, but the character models feel a bit too squat. I was also hoping to find something akin to a tailor who would allow me to dye/color my gear.
I will say this, though - the game has a lot of polish, and I like little things like the ability to bring up a trail to follow to your next objective. I wish the game didn't have "mouse look always on" though. There's something more strategic feeling in being able to select your enemy then stay locked on to them, even if you move around.
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No, you don't have more customization in 4e - yes, you choose a weapon but all the weapons work the same way and in some cases it doesn't even matter what weapon you choose because your powers do not use it. Case and point - the wizard. He can have dagger, quarterstaff, orb, etc. in his hands but the damage is based on a roll + intelligence modifier - the weapon that he wears does not matter at all.
The power selection is also deceptively wide you choose a power and then five levels later you replace it with another power that does the same thing better. In NWO the powers work well from the moment you acquire them until the end and they do not need to be replaced with a better version of themselves because they upgrade. Also most of the powers in 4e differ by what you roll - intelligence, strength, dexterity against will, reflex, fortitude - but that does not work in action MMO where you should hit if you aim properly. The player skill and the time it requires to use a skill replace the artificial physical properties you cannot get in a turn-based environment. So the power options are kinda limited as well.
NWO allows for customization - visual as well as gameplay-wise. You have feats, you have power selection and you have gear choices. They just work differently that they work in PnP D&D.
DDO is one of the worst MMOs out there - it is slow, it is unbalanced as hell and it has the worst type of lack of customization ever - most of the builds you can make simply don't work. Also most of the action games based on D&D don't follow the system all that close either. Some have nothing to do with it. Also NWN, IWD, PS:T and BG are not real-time, they have turn-based combat.
Agreed!
DDO has one of the better customization and ability to make viable builds, especially with the epic levels they have now. NWO just does not feel as DnD as DDO does to me or have anywhere near the same customization options.
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Without question DDO wins in the character customization and party grouping functionality. DDO is getting worse however... after every update (more bugs, and walking further away from the 3.5e core mechanics), and I believe the new UI/enhancements will take DDO so far away from 3.5 edition that the link will be practically impossible to make without bursting out in uncontrollable laughter. After seven long years, I can see Turbine is finally getting desperate - and I believe 2013 will be a bad year for DDO from a subscriber standpoint.
That being said... NWO needs to take a page out of DDO's book when it comes to functional party grouping features, and I don't mean only forming a group. NWO suffers from its Cooperative MMO coding framework (It was a completed coop mmo in 10/11). Today, it often feels like a solo game thats been busted open with a sledgehammer to play like a group game.
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Recently I told same old dialog to someone to show them content can be as made challenging as you want it to - and the person was like, no bigge - anyone can do it. Something died inside of me.
In a mostly simplistic summary, the way I see it... DDO is all character customization with great combat but nothing to do (running the same quests hundreds of times), and NWO will have no character customization with ok combat (great combat if you remove rooting and add to-hit penalty and mob opportunity attacks) and an unlimited number of things to do!
It's Cryptic's game to win at this point. But they need to face facts that certain things need to change. Change #1 must be to make our characters feel like OUR CHARACTERS.
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I know your guild isn't based on Khyber so YMMV compared to mine but it's not usually that difficult to get a pug group going. Sure they have made it easier to solo things and the pug scene does reflect that somewhat but I have noticed if you do bother to put a lfm up you do get bites and it is not that long.
I certainly have not waited for an hour in any pugs, I will say I do not pug as much either though but that is more because I have my core of guildies I run with.
Seriously NWO biggest weapon is the foundry and that is DDO's greatest weakness but I must disagree that "It's Cryptic's game to win at this point" lots of content won't do jack if peeps don't like how the game plays or feels and I feel this way because I don't believe Cryptic is willing to make such drastic changes at this point.
I'll say some of the recent addition from u17 patch1 in DDO have me going meh though, namely the ASAH.
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We feel 100% the same on this one, even if the reasons we reached the same conclusion might be a tad different.
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NW on other hand has a lot of future and possibilities. Provided devs play it right, it can grow a lot. If they botch it up, they botch it up. Thus it is "It's Cryptic's game to win at this point" hence the success of cryptic depends on itself and it will probably not compete with DDO (though comparisons will be drawn). That is how I understood his post.
EDIT: (stress on think shows I am speculating)
But still, DDO is nowhere near dead. Its old, but its character creation/development is far more advanced and varied than it is in Neverwinter. Its the character feel, and the combat that's created so many loyal followers of DDO. But it is looking like an old game though, even with the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> turned all the way up. For these reasons and others (boredom because of lack of new content, anger with changing game mechanics or ez buttons, etc), DDO is finally vulnerable. I just don't think Neverwinter is ready to compete just yet, sorry to say.
Where Cryptic fails, is thinking people will care enough about these cookie cutter builds. Only the mmo community will, en masse. But hardcore D&D folk know full well the character creation "options" are slim pickens/dismal here. But I know how close Cryptic is.
Do character creation/leveling right (this means add a LOT more variety to build options, skills, feats), find a better solution to "balanced combat" than rooting/additional delays (kiting and pvp are the reasons given for why they added rooting), clean up the Foundry and add an in-depth tutorial, and NWO can compete with DDO and any other game it wants to.
NWO shares the best IP in the history of gaming. Its time for them to realize that they are developing a D&D game which so happens to be an mmo, and not a cooperative mmo game which happens to reflect an mmo and D&D. In other words, NWO is in serious need of an identity, in my opinion.
So yes, in my mind, it's Cryptic's game to win (or lose) at this point. Technology and brilliant art design talent is certainly on their side. Is it the right engine to pull off a believable D&D program though? That's the real question. I'm still upbeat for both games, I just want the 2 best games possible
Just some fleeting thoughts before going to bed!
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DDO is cult status/cult following, dedicated fans keeping the game alive thats all, its dead to every other joe and the only other way to make it salvageble might be if the game got a graphical over-hall, much like wow did, if you could call it that, but how long would that last.
Neverwinter wants to be different, not a clone with better graphics, its just gotta play right, but based on the rooting changes
there's issues all round, and no doubt based on there re-advertising of there class trailers from the original ones floated.
None of those dev made quests scale to party size? i see a few more issues than just builds at this point.
The main story of this game is going to drive you down the same path, doing it over and over i can see, UGC cant beat that, if i did every ugc job on that board and didn't touch the story quest, can i get out of protectors enclave and go to the tower district?, we are confined to areas based on unlocking by story mode yeah? there's no openedness if you can call it that, i cant just roll where i want to!
You can. The lock is based on story and level. i.e. if you want to go to blacklake district, you may need to be lvl 10. But if you completed previous story, you can go there even if you are lvl 8.
Thus if you want, you can go to any area just by playing foundry.
No no no. You dont know a thing about DDO, nor do you understand the challenges Neverwinter faces.
Even if DDO started with one class (it started with more) in Feb 2006 (Headstart), that one class would of had more customization than all NWO builds (these aren't classes per say, they are specific, tightly shrink-wrapped builds) combined. Dude, its not close. I've had my hand in thousands of builds in DDO. Yes, thousands. I know.
DDO is not dead. Dont read my last post and think you understand how DDO works.
Lets keep things in perspective. DDO is not dying... its simply at a weakened point. But its retention rate is legendary. It pulls people back in and can do it for years to come because of the depth of its character creation and leveling (13 classes, 8 races and hundreds of thousands of possible combinations.) People CARE about their characters there. And how they play.
I can spend the next 3 months building bards... one a day, each one different. Same with fighter, barbarian, wizard, monk, artificer, druid, you name it. I can mix class, work skills. I can build it right, build it wrong, and everything in between. I can miss a trap, miss a swing, fail a save, fail my DC or succeed at them all. I can build for a new player that started today, or I can build for a vet. Believe it or not, it all makes a difference. None of this will happen in Neverwinter. In NWO, we play Cryptic's builds. All 4-5 of them.
Foundry missions alone wont keep people coming back here, it will be their connection with their characters, and how they play, which will matter most. You watch.
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I do wish they wouldn't have pigeon-holed templates vs classes, but I am pretty sure that is a residual effect from the co-op that the game was created to be.
We need to give them time to properly port this to an MMO before much criticism on varieties of builds. There is still 2-3 different cleric builds I can think of within the beta parameters. More will come.
Think of it as 4e with only the very first book published lol... or perhaps an 2012 version of Demon Stone ported to an MMO.
I have more faith in what is to come, partially due to the amount of stuff that can be found in the game files. The foundry is also amazing and with this community will be the strongest feature in any game on the market.
Done every flavor of D&D over 2 decades and this will be yet another.