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D&D Feel
blergnur
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 10 Arc User
I have read a few times in a few of these threads people saying that the game doesn't "feel" like D&D.
I have had the exact opposite reaction over the Beta weekend so I figured I would ask and hope this doesn't cause a flame out or anything.
This is by far the most D&D feeling game that I have played online. Other than playing an actual sit down game of paper and pencil D&D this is the best D&D fix I've found. DDO didn't do it for me and I couldn't stand to play it for mostly mechanics and graphics reasons.
So I'm curious, those that say it doesn't feel like D&D can you... nicely... expand on that a bit?
I have had the exact opposite reaction over the Beta weekend so I figured I would ask and hope this doesn't cause a flame out or anything.
This is by far the most D&D feeling game that I have played online. Other than playing an actual sit down game of paper and pencil D&D this is the best D&D fix I've found. DDO didn't do it for me and I couldn't stand to play it for mostly mechanics and graphics reasons.
So I'm curious, those that say it doesn't feel like D&D can you... nicely... expand on that a bit?
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Statistic choices mean far less than gear choices. This happens in any game... at end game. Example: If I have a 18 CON fighter, and a 20 CON fighter, that makes the difference of about 40 HP. At level 10, I find a pair of boots with 230 HP bonus. That's equivalent to +11 CON. Now, with this, I don't care about the numbers. What I care about is that you making your character more strong, wise, charismatic, etc. has zero effect upon the game. We might as well start off with all "10's". This means no individuality with our choice.
Second, zero choice of powers at level-up, no choice of gear, everything is on rails. Part of the best fun of DnD was making a character that was odd, had an ability that few took, just to use it in ways that other people didn't think of. I jsut don't like being limited like that when in DnD, there are options, and devout cleric A at fifth level and devout cleric B at fifth level may play very differently depending upon power selection.
Third, every class can do what any other class can do skill wise. Pop a pill, detect traps. Sniff some dust, open religious items. Why even have skills in the game at all? Everyone is exactly the same, sans the trinity. And even then, most of those roles are hybridized to some degree.
As far as environment, general play, the sounds, the monsters you fight, all of that is DnD. So quite a bit of it is there already. Just seems to have fallen short on the character customization options (which, oddly enough, Cryptic usually does really well with).
Im just saying ANYONE can find someone about anything.. to me it is a DnD / Neverwinter feel.. by being an MMO player I understand the reasoning for the path things go. if this was a co op game yes it would be closer to the real DnD but into an MMO things need to be modified.
as well Its BASED off of DnD and Neverwinter no one ever claimed it would be a true 100% conversion.
I will only agree if the Characte customization and the silly rerool thing
You'll find many of the dissenters who actually try the game may eventually stop judging it for what it is not and instead judge it fairly for what it is.
Some are bitter because they wanted NWN3. Some are bitter because they don't understand or like 4e. And a whole bunch of people just have impossible expectations, as they are unaware of the variables involved in balancing an MMO for high end PvE content and PvP. (How could a classic DnD rogue possibly work in PvP?).
Art design is a hot topic. I used to hate any cartoon flavour, now I kind of appreciate it because it means the game takes longer to become dated graphically in the way it feels (consider WoW. Attempted realism ages faster as graphics technology advances).
Though I don't want to be read as though I am dismissing all grievances as belonging to the above categories. I'm preparing myself for disappointment, if I don't see more flexibility to classes introduced, with respect to 4e, even though I dislike it..
Just remember, that sadly the D&D community has a history of INCESSANT whining. Just read the old usenet newsgroups to see what I mean. I can also tell you back in the days of BBS, D&D fans just loved to HAMSTER and whine.
The worst is when a new edition or major rule book is released.
I am not sure why this is, it seems some D&D fans really consider themselves more "expert" than others, or worse, actually feel they can design better games than the professionals.
Of course, some constructive criticism is useful, but sadly it often goes way beyond that.
You see similar chronic dissatisfaction here.
While I have no doubt this game will have flaws and will require some corrections as time goes by (as all MMOs do), there's no doubt in my mind they've captured the essence of D&D very nicely.
Indeed, with the Foundry, a key ingredient of D&D, (being able to tell a story, to craft plots, NPCs and gather friends to experience them with their characters) is now available. It's been available before in other flavors of Neverwinter, but I think this version is the most accessible.
So while I can't answer for those who claim this just isn't D&D, I'll tell you, that this kind of mewling, has been a significant part of D&D culture, since the days people griped about the Bard when the first edition AD&D player's handbook was released. I can remember, to this day, fat guys, chewing cheeseburgers at the gaming table, lecturing me about psionics and it was clear to him, that segment of the AD&D books was a clear path, D&D was doomed and that "Chivalry and Sorcery" would be the new standard within a year.
I don't separate myself from the culture either. I have deeply opinionated as well. I much prefer Pathfinder's system to what 4th Edition is. I am even more skeptical of "D&D Next" (or whatever Wizards is branding it), that will release next year. From what I understand it's a sort of "paint by numbers" rule system where you pick and choose rule constructs for your gaming table. Yuck.
But so what?
Show me 100 D&D fans and I'll show you 100 different opinions on whether the Tiefling should have been chosen over the Gnome, or how multi-classing should be be handled.
My point is, what "feels like D&D" is subjective and those who are adamant that this "isn't D&D" are talking out of the wrong HAMSTER, again (as I am prone to do myself).
The bottom line is, this game is clearly branded as D&D, fully endorsed by the stewards of D&D and plays and functions much like you'd expect a D&D MMO to look and function. I can quibble about this or that in the game as well, but this is D&D, more than that, in many ways this is the future of D&D.
Personally, I can't wait to get started.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Well stated.
I'm a massive fan of NWN. I played it for years, and enjoyed the sequel and all its expansions. I'm far more comfortable with 3e rules, or 3.5 such as in DDO. But even I have had to admit, 4e is far better suited to an MMO and I'm thoroughly impressed with the design choices for NW. Even in those areas that have disappointed me, I'm willing to compromise because I understand the reasons for it, or I'm hopeful of changes later in development. There is so much potential in this game. I'm confident that it will be realised, and that most dissenters will be won over when they eventually forgive NWO for not being NWN3... lol
/agreed.
Ryger5's wins the thread.
I read almost all the posts in the topics dedicated to "this doesn't feel like D&D" and "the class system should be changed" and almost no one had any reasonable arguments why it doesn't feel like D&D or why the class system should be changed. The most common argument is "because I cannot customize my character in any way shape or form that I could possibly desire" which is a pretty weak one. I noticed that several guys even said that they cannot do a build with the current system that I already did in-game...
People should understand that tabletop RPGs and computer MMORPGs have in common as much as chess and fencing - as chess and fencing both represent the art of battle but do it in a very different way, tabletop games and MMORPGs represent roleplaying in really different ways and one could never be a viable substitute for the other for many different reasons.
It is funny, isn't it? Maybe it is because the ones who claim it is not like D&D cannot really come up with decent arguments about their claims.
This. I have been waiting on a thread listing reasons that don't boil down to basically "Because its not what I thought it would be or because its not what I want". I have yet to see it. Ryger5 definitely put it better than I ever could have.
totally laughed out loud...
Ha, so did I! Such an evocative image, and really something I could totally relate to. What D&D player hasn't been there?
Are you kidding? Ryger5's just won the internet.
Haha and he won it by doing exactly what he accuses others of doing, how ironic!
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
1. Rolling for hit points when you level up + con bonus (not 4e....but was fun)
2. Assigning points to professions at each level ie. dungeoneering ( no not dungeon earring auto correct)....ESP my favourite 'use magical device' (let my rogue pick up that wand of fireballs and blow this party to hell)
3. Feat assignment
I'm sure there are tons more that would enhance the D&D feel / customisation
By looking at videos, and reading through reports, Neverwinter Online seems to feel just like D&D4 and it could even be more exciting and playable than the actual pen and paper D&D4.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
I would argue that the three that you listed would add to customization, but the fact they are not there don't really take away from the "Feel" of it being D&D. The "Feel" of D&D comes from the lore and the fantasy which is very much present in the game.
The customizations are great on a paper and pencil game, however this is an MMO, it would be near impossible to create a balanced MMO that allows for that level of customization, and have it still be fun for the masses. The only reason it works in paper and pencil D&D is due to the fact that a DM is watching everything you do, and allowing or disallowing certain actions or events from happening, that level of monitoring is not practical with an MMO so they have to take certain steps to ensure the game is going to be enjoyable to the majority of players.
My initial thoughts on your three points:
1. Rolling for hit points would rapidly lead to a game where if you wanted to compete/keep-up with your friends/guildies/whoever you would need to reroll a character if you were unlucky on your rolls to many times. You would become a liability in a party and not be able to overcome this with roleplaying.
2. This is one of the things that makes paper and pencil D&D fun/annoying. Fun for the rogue that just did it, annoying to the wizard that didn't get the item and then was just blown up by a rogue in his party. Again it is something that a good DM can stay on top of in a group game but can become crazy to try and balance and would lead to a bunch of unhappy players getting magic nuked by rogues. This very thing actually happened to me in a paper and pencil game where a certain rogue liked to just keep all of the items they could get their hands on and learned how to use scrolls. This lead to some very unfriendly game play and was not a lot of fun.
3. I like this one, and I think it is something they could put in over time. Just because the choice of feats isn't there now doesn't mean it never will be. As I said in my original post I am in favor of a bit more of this kind of customization, but not at the expense of getting the game out on time. I would rather see some bugs polished up rather than more feats added, for now.
tldr: I see your arguments as more why this doesn't feel like a paper and pencil game, rather than it not feeling like D&D.
My character is silent and on rails. That's not really DnD, to have your mode of expression taken away from you. Cryptic is the DM however and if the DM says you cannot interact, then you cannot. I saw a few options around Diplomacy and Intimidate but they were grayed out. Had to try to talk to the Lord himself and a few other random NPCs to see those options.
That's about it though. If I wanted to tell my story, that's what the Foundry is for.
As for other choices (mainly character development I take it) the little I have seen so far is enough for me. The more static classes makes it easier to balance and avoids the HAMSTER that freeform characters are in CO.
Who's to say that you will never be able to do so, since it seems that there is a basic framework for already? This is beta, there will be pieces missing. Heck, there will most likely be pieces "missing" at launch, and no I'm not talking more classes or races here.
Whole heartidly agree. The only way a DnD game could translate is if it was a pure sandbox with a DM affecting the gameplay live as things are happening. This game is definitely of the DnD license with a fun translation of skills with the potential to be a ton more.
Cryptic has worked there butts off on CO. If it had the combat style of NeverWinter, I'd be playing it a lot more. But its a halfway action game that still resembles the tab-target paradigm. Move it to full on action like this one and I'd be in love.
This is the game I've been wanting from Cryptic for a while and I'm glad it has a DnD license representing it.
Is this really a thing?! I admit, I've basically been a fanboy up to this point, but the idea of just anybody being able to do something that, to my very limited knowledge (I don't know that much about D&D rule, let alone 4e, please correct me if I'm wrong), is a class specific skill is horrifying. Part of the fun of playing rogues, imo, is being able to provide the whole detect and disarm traps/pick locks service to the group.
I think cryptic did an amazing work with the combat, shift powers, dodges, combat advantge, flanking, weakness, etc, etc....
The dungeons and quests rly have the old D&D feeeling, i havent play it yet but according to all the videos i saw its rly great
But now the down side...
I think cryptic forgot about the most important part of D&D which is making unique characters, i honestly think was a rly bad dicission to obligate people to follow a specific class build, guardian figther, control wizard, etc....
Also i hate to see how skills were implemented, it fells to me that they add skills to the game just to say it have skills, because for me it doesnt make any sense for a figther to disable a trap or a cleric to make a decent arcane check, sry but thats not D&D.
Dont get me wrong, till now i love the game but this game is just another MMO with D&D IP... damn, even DDO was smart enough to make a decent translation of pno rules to an MMO so dont say to me its not doable to pass D&D to an MMO. The only thing about DDO i didnt like much was the boring combat and the never ending repetitive content but they did a hell of a job to translate the rules from pnp to an MMO.
Oh course, I suppose that would take a while to do.
Oh well. I won't let this ruin the game for me(I'll be playing in a group most of the time anyways). It'll still be fun!