I'm certainly not a "4e build expert" by any means, but I am highly knowledgeable at building 3.5 and earlier characters. I can see me having fun with this game... but its a shame so much great work has been put into the user generated content, but the character creation & building process is more reminiscent of LEGO then any edition of D&D.
this is true it needs more of feel of u made the char and its personal to you than it has right now.
we dont pick stats or really have much input in em..
changing the chars looks only makes small changes
no real input in skills or feats
no control over items u start out with feels like u playing same as every one and with out real input into the char its hard to get hooked to your char and get feeling of making some thing that you have made..
also do not like how items work if i wana be cleric tthats dwarf with big axe i can not be all are the same they need to impove on this
it helps to think of it less as a dnd mmo and more of an action mmo set in the dnd universe . we all have our wish lists for a dnd mmo but lets enjoy the game for what it is . instead of focusing on what its not
I see the problem with this. I build to a concept. Any class, race and background story. Having the option for background at the beginning of the game is something I loved. But not being able to adjust the character to the storyline is a terrible idea.
D&D 4th is designed to cater to the mmo crowd. A couple of abilities that you can use all the time, your at/wills, a few that can only be used one a fight, your encounter abilities, and your daily powers, things that would screw up your pnp game all kinds of ways if it was allowed many times.
Now PW takes that and cuts everything away but one thread of abilities. Saying that this is a x fighter type. Why?? Just program the abilities and let people decide what they want to play, more effective if you ask me. The fighter that can use a shield and sword is my favored class, when playing fighters, but I also prefer to use a ******* sword on the chance I cannot do enough damage on my attack while wielding my shield. My rogue builds always use a bow, why go toe to toe when your fighting if the attacker has to come to you. Thrown daggers, in D&D, are not an option, expense and replacements are a pain.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Thrown daggers, in D&D, are not an option, expense and replacements are a pain.
Enchanted weapons always return to the thrower in 4E. As long as you have enough "ammunition" for an attack, you don't need to replace magical throw implements.
Right first off - people DnD feel needs to be defined. For some its about gaming with friends - the adventures in the dungeons; having to think your way out of situations you've created. *some very stupidly and some not*
For others - its character customization; the freedom to do what you want with your character; if you want an axe wielding dwarf cleric you could. I'm not saying the adventure, dungeon crawling, gaming with friends, etc come second. That sometimes is how it comes across.
Now we having both sides trying to argue their case; problem is; both definitions are correct to a point as they are personal definitions.; but DnD feel - should lean towards the first definition as that is the spirit of DnD. *IMHO*
That still isn't to say the other side does not have a point. What I'm getting at is; lets listen and not just try to thump our personal views on what the game should or shouldn't be. Right now I have no opinion on the game as I've not gotten a chance to play; I've only seen the videos; only talk to people that have played. Everything I've seen and heard leans towards the first one.
The game play is a blast; gives you that DnD feeling of grouping and going through an adventure; but a lot of also said they do wish there was more customization.
Since this closed beta; we don't know what Cryptic has cooking in their labs - more customization is coming we know this. Will it be as free as PnP? Sadly no; because the simple fact it would a balancing and logicistal nightmare trying to do this. Will we get all the classes? I believe so; just not right away.
If you have played and you're not liking it; that's cool, then this isn't the game for you. If you haven't played and still saying this isn't DnD; you might want to wait until you've played......
Thank you! When someone asks if this "feels" like a DnD they are asking a philosophical question that can not be answered except by the individual. May I also point out that whoever designed or wrote or whatever the case is of the original DnD may have a different view than the modern difference that is the general view. As a philosophical argument unless you were in their head when they dreamed up DnD(and what if they were an anti-social person who didn't care about group play?) what it "feels" like to you may not actually be what it was meant. It is the individuals interpretation of it that matters and it really matters to them they may share parts of a view or opinion but it is NEVER exactly the same as the next persons.
...and that's not an opinion, that's a fact...[/QUOTE]
How many times did you verify your fact? According to scientists facts are hypothesis that have been verified through experiments several times. Did you research this "fact" or is it your opinion, cause I would classify that as an opinion but then I am very opinionated and have no problems saying that something is my opinion...lol. I was once told that I could never be on a debate team cause I would HAMSTER everybody off by arguing both sides, they also said that I would make a good lawyer for the same reason(um yuck!) and my problem with a lot of the posts here is it's all opinions with almost no research except for personal experience. No one can do anything but speculate as to why this is the decision of cryptic and how or why YOU wouldn't have made the same one, which since you don't know their reasons you can't actually say that. Unless you are the person in that situation at that moment with the same choices you can't say "well I would have done it differently" and another point you AREN'T them you may have because you are YOU!
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
it helps to think of it less as a dnd mmo and more of an action mmo set in the dnd universe . we all have our wish lists for a dnd mmo but lets enjoy the game for what it is . instead of focusing on what its not
Exactly.
I can't really play my preferred class, I'm limited in choice of feats and skills are practically non-existent.
In PnP D&D, I rely heavily on Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate. Even in NWN, I use those skills as much as possible.
Neverwinter doesn't feel like D&D, but it does feel like playing a great action RPG set in a great D&D city.
An "abundance of customization" doesn't cripple anything, it just makes you use your brain a little more.
Actually that's not true, if you have too many choices it can make it harder to make one. My problem has always been choices. I love them but can't stick to them very well because I like to try something different. I have played WoW since vanilla and yet I have had over 30 toons none of which I have ever gotten to 70, I think my highest was 68 or something. I love making new characters and trying something different each time whether in looks, weapons, class builds or whatever. My problem is the more choices I have the more characters I create, which isn't a bad thing...for the people who benefit from the money I usually need to spend to do so lol. I also like different game styles for different moods, when I need to relax or "vege" as I call it I play Wizard 101 or something that doesn't take much thought when I want a challenge I play a variety of different games. My point is choices are great but too many can be detrimental to gameplay.
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
It means different things to just about every D&D players. I am not one that believes that a table top game can be exactly translated with D20s in a MMO format but i also believe and understand that the mechanics are numeric values and that if you are willing to make the effort, some of the D&D mechanics can be translated by assigning different numeric values or ideas.
Think its well known by now that one of the goal of cryptic is to make MMOs as quick as possible with a tight budget by using material from their previous titles, they say so themsleves. If you look at how they go about making games, they usually go for popular IPs like Star Trek, D&D and they wanted to use the Marvel IP which is not surprising, but for budget reasons (probably) they use the same mechanics in all of their games. People should understand that NW is a D&D textured action game mostly which still qualifies it to be a D&D game because of lore and environemental textures.
Another important factor is that Wizards of the coast says that it is a D&D game and like most people who do, or feel like they own something they could say "what we say goes" and rightly so since many believe that "what we say goes" is a very good argument and legitimate answer to other peoples concern.
Does it feel like Im playing the P&P D&D, no. Does it feel like a D&D influenced video game , yes.
Strangely I do feel like playing PnP D&D in the foundry ... our group kind of plays it that way. Mechanics and combat is secondary. Talking, making choices and solving puzzles is major portion of our play.
And my foundry quests reflect that where you have to find the quest to do and solve the puzzles.
Strangely I do feel like playing PnP D&D in the foundry ... our group kind of plays it that way. Mechanics and combat is secondary. Talking, making choices and solving puzzles is major portion of our play.
And my foundry quests reflect that where you have to find the quest to do and solve the puzzles.
does the P&P and the PnP suppost to mean PvP? as in player vs player?
Depends on your interpretation of PvP. In table top you can pretty much do anything you want, which includes having to deal with friendly fire. I could argue that at its core D&D is very much PvP since there is no distinction between a friendly or hostile, you need to be carefull about what you do and who it might affect. Some NWN persistant worlds did have PvP and friendly fire.
I was kind of excited, but then I watched a bunch of youtubes. This is just horrible. Really? "control wizard" is all I get? There are a gazillion things I would want to do as a wizard, and none of them would have anything to do with "control". And no, not all of it would be dd.
What about a bard? Cmon, no bards? How can you beat the most multi-functional class in the entire game (2.5-3.5 talking here) for cool factor? Control wizard? Really? And I can't even do the cool 3.0+ flavor of things, like carrying a sword and wearing chain or something, and yet still fling spells as a pure wizard (thanks to feats!)?
There really are three reasons I feel it falls short of DnD. And they all have to do with character individuality.
Statistic choices mean far less than gear choices. This happens in any game... at end game. Example: If I have a 18 CON fighter, and a 20 CON fighter, that makes the difference of about 40 HP. At level 10, I find a pair of boots with 230 HP bonus. That's equivalent to +11 CON. Now, with this, I don't care about the numbers. What I care about is that you making your character more strong, wise, charismatic, etc. has zero effect upon the game. We might as well start off with all "10's". This means no individuality with our choice.
Second, zero choice of powers at level-up, no choice of gear, everything is on rails. Part of the best fun of DnD was making a character that was odd, had an ability that few took, just to use it in ways that other people didn't think of. I jsut don't like being limited like that when in DnD, there are options, and devout cleric A at fifth level and devout cleric B at fifth level may play very differently depending upon power selection.
Third, every class can do what any other class can do skill wise. Pop a pill, detect traps. Sniff some dust, open religious items. Why even have skills in the game at all? Everyone is exactly the same, sans the trinity. And even then, most of those roles are hybridized to some degree.
As far as environment, general play, the sounds, the monsters you fight, all of that is DnD. So quite a bit of it is there already. Just seems to have fallen short on the character customization options (which, oddly enough, Cryptic usually does really well with).
AGREED!!! Also why does the cleric recieve a negative to healing him ownself? Not Righteous...
songreaver007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 12Arc User
edited May 2013
I don't think the game feels like Dungeons and Dragons at all.. It has a Dungeons and Dragons Skin and lore but that is about it.. For the most part it feels like Dragon Age online more than it does Dungeons and Dragons. The game is still fun just not D&D
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songreaver007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 12Arc User
To me at least, this isn't D&D at all. There is no bonus for what stats you take, there's little to no class customization and all the weapons are restricted. One of the things I loved about D&D was I could use any weapon I wanted as long as I had the proper proficiency, but in this its all the same. TR uses dual daggers, DC uses holy symbols, GWF uses the great sword and CW uses orbs. You cant ever use a different weapon! It just really gets me out of the D&D feel...
I think one of the problems is a lot of people haven't played 4th ed. Most of the complaints I've heard have made me go "But that's how 4th ed is, and that's what this game is based on."
I have read a few times in a few of these threads people saying that the game doesn't "feel" like D&D.
I have had the exact opposite reaction over the Beta weekend so I figured I would ask and hope this doesn't cause a flame out or anything.
This is by far the most D&D feeling game that I have played online. Other than playing an actual sit down game of paper and pencil D&D this is the best D&D fix I've found. DDO didn't do it for me and I couldn't stand to play it for mostly mechanics and graphics reasons.
So I'm curious, those that say it doesn't feel like D&D can you... nicely... expand on that a bit?
This is NOT D&D rules in combat, Armor class does nothing for mitigation, there are no bonuses for stats (str, dex, etc) I do not even think they have a lot to do with encounters, I think gear has 100% to do with everything and you know why? Because the powers that be thought that needing a gear score to get into dungeons would be the thing to do, it is not and it is definitely not D&D. They are simply trying to pull in loudmouthed elitist children that think gear scores are where its at. Making dungeon dependent on gear scores and not the D&D rules is a huge mistake. Hoping that will change.
There is no worse feeling in the world than the moment during an argument you realize you are wrong.
Comments
this is true it needs more of feel of u made the char and its personal to you than it has right now.
we dont pick stats or really have much input in em..
changing the chars looks only makes small changes
no real input in skills or feats
no control over items u start out with feels like u playing same as every one and with out real input into the char its hard to get hooked to your char and get feeling of making some thing that you have made..
also do not like how items work if i wana be cleric tthats dwarf with big axe i can not be all are the same they need to impove on this
D&D 4th is designed to cater to the mmo crowd. A couple of abilities that you can use all the time, your at/wills, a few that can only be used one a fight, your encounter abilities, and your daily powers, things that would screw up your pnp game all kinds of ways if it was allowed many times.
Now PW takes that and cuts everything away but one thread of abilities. Saying that this is a x fighter type. Why?? Just program the abilities and let people decide what they want to play, more effective if you ask me. The fighter that can use a shield and sword is my favored class, when playing fighters, but I also prefer to use a ******* sword on the chance I cannot do enough damage on my attack while wielding my shield. My rogue builds always use a bow, why go toe to toe when your fighting if the attacker has to come to you. Thrown daggers, in D&D, are not an option, expense and replacements are a pain.
Enchanted weapons always return to the thrower in 4E. As long as you have enough "ammunition" for an attack, you don't need to replace magical throw implements.
/rules lawyer
Thank you! When someone asks if this "feels" like a DnD they are asking a philosophical question that can not be answered except by the individual. May I also point out that whoever designed or wrote or whatever the case is of the original DnD may have a different view than the modern difference that is the general view. As a philosophical argument unless you were in their head when they dreamed up DnD(and what if they were an anti-social person who didn't care about group play?) what it "feels" like to you may not actually be what it was meant. It is the individuals interpretation of it that matters and it really matters to them they may share parts of a view or opinion but it is NEVER exactly the same as the next persons.
How many times did you verify your fact? According to scientists facts are hypothesis that have been verified through experiments several times. Did you research this "fact" or is it your opinion, cause I would classify that as an opinion but then I am very opinionated and have no problems saying that something is my opinion...lol. I was once told that I could never be on a debate team cause I would HAMSTER everybody off by arguing both sides, they also said that I would make a good lawyer for the same reason(um yuck!) and my problem with a lot of the posts here is it's all opinions with almost no research except for personal experience. No one can do anything but speculate as to why this is the decision of cryptic and how or why YOU wouldn't have made the same one, which since you don't know their reasons you can't actually say that. Unless you are the person in that situation at that moment with the same choices you can't say "well I would have done it differently" and another point you AREN'T them you may have because you are YOU!
Off topic and as an aside, I have much more respect for lawyers than judges. Humans are fit to defend each other, but not to judge each other.
I can't really play my preferred class, I'm limited in choice of feats and skills are practically non-existent.
In PnP D&D, I rely heavily on Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate. Even in NWN, I use those skills as much as possible.
Neverwinter doesn't feel like D&D, but it does feel like playing a great action RPG set in a great D&D city.
Actually that's not true, if you have too many choices it can make it harder to make one. My problem has always been choices. I love them but can't stick to them very well because I like to try something different. I have played WoW since vanilla and yet I have had over 30 toons none of which I have ever gotten to 70, I think my highest was 68 or something. I love making new characters and trying something different each time whether in looks, weapons, class builds or whatever. My problem is the more choices I have the more characters I create, which isn't a bad thing...for the people who benefit from the money I usually need to spend to do so lol. I also like different game styles for different moods, when I need to relax or "vege" as I call it I play Wizard 101 or something that doesn't take much thought when I want a challenge I play a variety of different games. My point is choices are great but too many can be detrimental to gameplay.
Think its well known by now that one of the goal of cryptic is to make MMOs as quick as possible with a tight budget by using material from their previous titles, they say so themsleves. If you look at how they go about making games, they usually go for popular IPs like Star Trek, D&D and they wanted to use the Marvel IP which is not surprising, but for budget reasons (probably) they use the same mechanics in all of their games. People should understand that NW is a D&D textured action game mostly which still qualifies it to be a D&D game because of lore and environemental textures.
Another important factor is that Wizards of the coast says that it is a D&D game and like most people who do, or feel like they own something they could say "what we say goes" and rightly so since many believe that "what we say goes" is a very good argument and legitimate answer to other peoples concern.
Strangely I do feel like playing PnP D&D in the foundry ... our group kind of plays it that way. Mechanics and combat is secondary. Talking, making choices and solving puzzles is major portion of our play.
And my foundry quests reflect that where you have to find the quest to do and solve the puzzles.
Spoken like a true ROLEPLAYER, I like it.
http://www.menzoberranzan2.net/info/
Depends on your interpretation of PvP. In table top you can pretty much do anything you want, which includes having to deal with friendly fire. I could argue that at its core D&D is very much PvP since there is no distinction between a friendly or hostile, you need to be carefull about what you do and who it might affect. Some NWN persistant worlds did have PvP and friendly fire.
Stands for Pen and Paper!!
http://www.menzoberranzan2.net/info/
What about a bard? Cmon, no bards? How can you beat the most multi-functional class in the entire game (2.5-3.5 talking here) for cool factor? Control wizard? Really? And I can't even do the cool 3.0+ flavor of things, like carrying a sword and wearing chain or something, and yet still fling spells as a pure wizard (thanks to feats!)?
This game has me seriously bummed.
AGREED!!! Also why does the cleric recieve a negative to healing him ownself? Not Righteous...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
http://www.etsy.com/shop/Toadems
PNP means Pen and Paper
This is NOT D&D rules in combat, Armor class does nothing for mitigation, there are no bonuses for stats (str, dex, etc) I do not even think they have a lot to do with encounters, I think gear has 100% to do with everything and you know why? Because the powers that be thought that needing a gear score to get into dungeons would be the thing to do, it is not and it is definitely not D&D. They are simply trying to pull in loudmouthed elitist children that think gear scores are where its at. Making dungeon dependent on gear scores and not the D&D rules is a huge mistake. Hoping that will change.