I was going to say stuff, but then Ryger5 said it all on Page One.
So, I'll just say this: No online game will ever be the equivalent of traditional PNP D&D. NONE. Why? Because the human element is almost completely removed. There's no randomness to your choices, no consequences of your choices. From a programmer's standpoint, it would be impossible to try and provide for all the choices a person could conceivably make.
The only thing a game can ever do is try to make it more interactive, more "roleplay'ish" -- like I think it was Asheron's Call or was it Everquest where you actually had to type certain phrases back to NPC's to get them to give you quests. It wasn't always obvious what you had to say either. XD
You run across the problem that's adherent to most MMORPGs. People ignore the RPG part and just play the MMO "donkey-chase-the-carrot" part. How many RP servers on how many different games have complained about trolls rolling up on them and junking up their roleplay? Some people just don't want a roleplay experience, they just wanna "play the game".
The problem with most gaming companies is that the "play the game" folks are more prevalent than the "roleplaying" folks -- so that's the denominator they cater to. Until roleplayers really start getting vocal -- like REALLY vocal like the "play the game" whiners -- game companies aren't really going to listen.
(Unless you're Turbine, of course. They pay attention to their RP communities... 0_o)
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drizzitdude5Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited March 2013
Considering an action and physics based title set in a world usually covered by dice rolls I am glad it doesn't feel like the source material in this way. When it comes to the world though I have found it to be pretty nice from the gameplay I have been keeping up with and in a few hours I'll be able to test it out myself.
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lordsilverionMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 24Arc User
edited March 2013
Ok i looked at some videos on youtube waiting for today beta and i got asap feeling that it is not real D&D. Dont get me wrong it is BUTIFUL game and i think i will like it a lot but there is no spirit of D&D ,,,
a.) There is no freedom of choices that make you like real D&D you can make absurd characters that are fun to play becouse they play different way then everyone expect.
b.) World is nice curate but it is not LIVE, mobs still stay on its places without real reason and agenda ... that is what i expect from a real D&D
c.) I remember days of wait to make first lv in D&D .. now fey encounters not even first boss HARBRINGER and guy playing was already lv 4 !! that was my biggest NO NO this cannot be ..
Great game, fun, dinamic and i will play it but it is wrong to say it is D&D spirit of it was something else and still we will have to wait to see somone able to do it
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pyliathebreezeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 6Arc User
So what would we like to see? Off the top of my head.......in no particular order
1. Rolling for hit points when you level up + con bonus (not 4e....but was fun)
2. Assigning points to professions at each level ie. dungeoneering ( no not dungeon earring auto correct)....ESP my favourite 'use magical device' (let my rogue pick up that wand of fireballs and blow this party to hell)
3. Feat assignment
I'm sure there are tons more that would enhance the D&D feel / customisation
1. You're aware all this is done automatically when you play an MMO right? The computer generates two numbers, one is a range based on your character's stats, the other is a random number, when that random number falls into your range, you hit the target.
2. This has been nothing short of annoying in any game I've ever played, why would it be in an ACTION ROLEPLAYING GAME INTERPRETATION OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. It has no baring on the meat of the game style chosen, THE COMBAT IS THE MEAT OF AN ACTION RPG. I apologize for my use of capital letters, but sometimes incessant whiners can't get the point unless you scream it to them.
3. See above, and get happy with the feat system we have in game, as its fairly closer to Fourth Edition than they certainly intended.
4. Wizards of the Coast, the publishers and stewards of the franchise(s) after the death of Gygax, Ed Greenwood, the creator of the Forgotten Realms Mythos, AND R.A. Salvatore, its most notable author and who's books the game is set AFTER have all approved of the game, what else does anyone need? I can point at D&D Daggerdale for a worse use of the licence, and DDO for being the Hardcore Loner version of Pen and Paper.
5. The fun in the pen in paper game is that you play it with your friends, NOT ALONE. Why would I want to play with dice, paper, and figurines by myself? And why would I want to play it in a video game? My friends aren't here, this isn't enjoyable anymore.
There, several reasons for you to buck up, because this fish is not a squirrel.
Dungeon Earring? Isn't that who recorded "Raider Love"?
. The fun in the pen in paper game is that you play it with your friends, NOT ALONE. Why would I want to play with dice, paper, and figurines by myself? And why would I want to play it in a video game? My friends aren't here, this isn't enjoyable anymore.
You obviously never played Dungeon Quest (which is fantastic played solo with dice, paper, figurines, card and cardboard). Of course you're likely to die on any given turn from an unlucky draw but what are you to do?
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
So I'm curious, those that say it doesn't feel like D&D can you... nicely... expand on that a bit?
It's because NW doesn't feel like D&D 3 or 3.5. Instead Cryptic has done a fairly good job of making an MMO based on D&D 4.0. Using a real time combat engine in place of the games turn based combat. Despite that they have done a good job of capturing the mechanics and feel of D&D 4.0.
The problem for those who like 3.0 & 3.5 is that 4.0 is very structured and ridged. It basically was designed and written almost perfectly as a rules for a computer game/MMO. And part of the trade off to get that was the loss of flexibility you had in the previous versions of the game.
So when people complain it doesn't feel like D&D to them or it isn't flexible enough they are comparing NW to D&D 3.0 or D&D 3.5.
in some ways it feel dndish but not having a roleplay channel or any roleplay encouraging missions or anything just does not seem right to me i did like one of the quests you find a d20 i lol'ed when i saw that
I think that given my limited exposure to the beta this game feels more like the original DnD with the paperback thin books rather than any of the versions of ADnD that came out. And yeah I remember sitting around listening to the fat guys whining about how ADnD was going to screw everything up in 6 months.
So that may be part of the issue, folks expecting this to be like their favorite version of ADnD. Who knows? I just think it will do great.
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omniusmagnariMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
basically you have the people who want to actually be able to make their character their own by customizing it
(i dont my want my 10th lvl fighter be the same as everyone elses 10th lvl fighter
and then you have the others who say that everyone from the first group either needs to go back to wow (not liking this game = / = wow fanboy), doesnt understand 4e (wrong 4e isnt this restrictive), is just a whiner (wrong again those are valid criticisms), that having any choice whatsoever will mean pvp will be unbalanced (wrong again having choices doesnt mean pvp will go down the drain)
in 4e i could pick my class and then pick my powers...not pick a forced build and have it pick powers for me i could choose what types of gear i wanted to wear (with penalties for not being proficient if i wasnt proficient with the gear i picked)
Just to mirror what seems to be the overall sentiment in this thread: what bothers me is the lack of customization options, which is at the core of the D&D experience no matter what edition.
Being based on 4e, this game should make an effort to actually be like 4e and allow power/ability choices. Those decisions make your characters matter and personalize your play experience.
Of all the D&D video games I have played over the years, this one is by far the least like its namesake.
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zatherusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited March 2013
For the most part I like the feel of the game, the only problem I have seen is that the wizard is not a neverwinter D&D wizard. They dont play like wizards, there is no spell real spell list adaptivity that a true D&D wizard has. They simply have skills like any other fighter.
Some are bitter because they don't understand or like 4e.
That makes no sense. This game has almost nothing to do with 4e, or the any edition of D&D. I think the game is fun, I plan on playing it, I spent $60 on it, but I don’t think of it as a D&D game. I think of it as a MMO game based in the Neverwinter setting with totally different rules based only off of the D&D names.
4e is a set of rules. Any game in any setting based off of the OGL rules of 4e would be more D&D than this, since none of this games rules or mechanics are based off of D&D in any way but name.
This game plays very similar to GW2, but has a more traiditonal MMO approach to it, which I like. I give the advantage to GW2 in character building, but so far I have enjoyed this game more due to dungeons and foundry quests, and healing mechanics. Is it a 4e D&D game? No, not even a little. It is an MMO set in Neverwinter, which happens to be part of the FR campaign setting and owned by WotC, who publishes content for it under the D&D umbrella. WotC own D&D and happen to be on the 4th edition rules. This game is based as much on 4e as the Dragonlance or any D&D setting books are based off of whatever edition of rules are out when a book for the setting is written.
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tykytysMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I think that's a good way to think of it, Unclejoey. It's a fun action game with some MMO elements. A few of these elements also happen to appear in D&D 4e, but the game is no way a D&D MMO.
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galidatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited March 2013
Because if it did not say Neverwinter and old fans of the franchise know that name, there would not be anything to remind you of classic D&D, really. The classic races are pretty much diluted because used by practically every fantasy game. Class choices and features are also very different from old time D6D. Action style combat?
This does not make it a bad game. It just does not make it a D&D game for many fans of the previous titles.
Part of this is the 4th edition rules and another the very limited scope of character development the game offers. I made a devoted cleric and had to find out I'll be holding two symbol thingies and casting pretty much the same five spells for the rest of the game. Turning undead isn't even one of them and dang, it sure would be useful!
The last attempt at a D&D MMO, DDO, did get most D6Dish parts right. The dice, the Thac0, the spells and skills. It made different mistakes, such as the Eberon setting. The 3.5 rule set is also not for the faint of heart and grafics are pretty dated by now (Turbine never got the animations right). It still has a loyal following and Neverwinter first has to show how it does in the wild before counting the days of DDO.
Neverwinter may become a good and successful game on its own. The D&D part? Well, let's say I would not push that too much in marketing ...
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gorlotwoaxeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 25Arc User
Erm no. You'd have to change the class mechanics once. It'd be a big change. But only once. There's 18 base classes in the PHB's. If you think of 3 builds for every class (which is common) you have 54 classes to code all with their own individual spells feats animations etc. And this would still not hit every type of character someone wanted to make. Therefore you're losing clients and by losing clients you're losing money.
Actually, there's 8 classes in the original PHB. If you meant all of them, you punctuated incorrectly. The game is going to launch with 4 classes (one having two paths) and add a 5th and 6th classes soon. The Warlord and the Paladin will be on the outside looking in, though hopefully a melee ranged healing class will be added soon (Inspiring Warlord?) and a second "tank class" (Avenging Paladin?).
But getting back to your point about game design, as someone who has done a little of it and understands some of the complexities... it's complex. You can't just open up all these skills to all the players. What happens is that you end up with everyone playing 3 classes. DDO does a great job of letting you build any class you want... And then you cannot get a group for the tough end-game content because you haven't followed certain cookie cutter builds. They opened things up, and gimped 98% of the class builds so that you can't use them. This is poor game design, and shouldn't be encouraged or repeated.
Disagree with that completely. DDO gives options which is a fundamental part of D&D. This game so far, not so much. If you have options, you have longevity of a game. I still play DDO and it is still fairly active. You can reroll a Wizard and that Wizard can be completely different from the Wizard before, and this is true of all the classes. Because you can choose from a goodly number of skills but those ARE choices, you have to give something up too, it makes you want to play the game over and over again. Try out your favorite character type but with different choices. Why can't the fighter use an axe? I saw none in game. Where were the bows? Its just silly. If you were in a party of adventurers and you looted a chest and there was a really nice morningstar and you had some crappy rusty old nicked and warped sword, you would be all over that morningstar. The lack of variety is very disappointing and dangerous for longevity. The gameplay was fun! The lack of choices, though, is a potential gamebreaker, IMHO. Fun gameplay is a must and definitely is exciting at the beginning, but by itself does not sustain. D&D is an RPG. RPG= Roleplaying Game. Roleplaying normally is considered to be creating a character and play acting that you are that character. Who would play act a Fighter who could only use a long sword and a shield? A wizard who only used ice spells? (well maybe someone would roleplay that, but a realm full of Ice Wizards is a bit strange). Oh and the whole realm has only one type of clothing per class? I played a Wizard up to 30 and every robe looked exactly the same (like some Circus ensemble) except for 1 named robe that I kept on long past its usefulness just because it was different (although it too looked ridiculous). If a game is going to be playable for years, it has to have a lot of things to maintain people's interests. Over a frantic beta weekend, of course it was fun and it was actually less buggy than many betas. But week after week, there have to be things that encourage you to keep rerolling characters as well as a fun endgame.
Actually, there's 8 classes in the original PHB. If you meant all of them, you punctuated incorrectly. The game is going to launch with 4 classes (one having two paths) and add a 5th and 6th classes soon. The Warlord and the Paladin will be on the outside looking in, though hopefully a melee ranged healing class will be added soon (Inspiring Warlord?) and a second "tank class" (Avenging Paladin?).
But getting back to your point about game design, as someone who has done a little of it and understands some of the complexities... it's complex. You can't just open up all these skills to all the players. What happens is that you end up with everyone playing 3 classes. DDO does a great job of letting you build any class you want... And then you cannot get a group for the tough end-game content because you haven't followed certain cookie cutter builds. They opened things up, and gimped 98% of the class builds so that you can't use them. This is poor game design, and shouldn't be encouraged or repeated.
Eh maybe you haven't played in awhile but the Epic Destinies pretty much assure any kind of build is viable end game even in EE.
The great thing about DDO is that you can build a character that caters to your playstyle or objective. Sure if you make a flavor build it may not be quite as effective as a min/max build but that doesn't mean you can't do EE, it just means it will be a little more challenging and isn't challenge something many peeps whine there isn't enough of ?
I only reached 16 with a character so at higher levels my views may change but for now.
I know there is most likely never going to be a game that can fully bring the the D&D feel across especially an mmo style game.
There are plenty of things which I would have done differently If I had been in their shoes but then again there will be hundreds or thousands of players who would have done it differently to the devs and me and each other.
D&D has always had the books the artwork the plans etc which leads us all in a certain direction when we are imagining our old DM's descriptions during a session.
Of a group of 6 players it would be a good bet in their minds eye they all have their own unique picture of the DM's description.
So I would say it has a D&D feel especially the environments and interiors in the city which I did like a lot.
But for me.
To much WOW/WARHAMMER influence in npc's and characters and big numbers flashing around.
To little choice in abilities/skills and customization which is core to D&D at least to my minds eye at least.
I hope the foundry can give me my interpretation of the D&D feel.
Even if the foundry doesn't I can live with how D&D Neverwinter is for a fair while.
Haven't played NWO yet, but from what i've heard most negative responses are indicative of stat control and how limited the effects have on character builds. All I can say is if NWO provides a game where equipment, alignment actions, basic buffs, sound and GFX are integrated more importantly, than it is a winner. I hated DDO for the stats and buffs mandatory vitality to success formulae....
From the videos I have seen it looks and plays better than ddo, so in that aspect I'm feel secure. Now I just have to get my foundry pack and I can enjoy and leave DDO behind.
Most of my D&D experience was 2nd and 3rd edition with lots of 3.5 played. Stopped playing for years and when 4th came out my initial response was "They made D&D feel like an MMO"
I agree completely with the above statement.........I was very fond of the 2nd Ed rules........IMHO everything after that was just "dumbing it down" for those that came after.
I agree completely with the above statement.........I was very fond of the 2nd Ed rules........IMHO everything after that was just "dumbing it down" for those that came after.
I really liked a lot of what 3e brought to the table. This was mainly the skills and classes themselves. That being said, I feel D&D started losing its way in 3e by bogging down combat too much and emphasising AoOs and arbitrary rules. Combat was far more enjoyable in 1st and 2nd edition as it was free flowing and less about exact positioning. Streamlining saving throws, ability checks, skill checks and attack bonus vs Armour class was more intuitive and resolved faster. The perfect ruleset for me would be a hybrid of 2e and the above mentioned 3e rules.
Note: I still consider Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil to be the only D&D computer game that truly did the rules justice. It's turn-based combat and rules implementation were miles ahead of NWN or Baldurs Gate.
I notice that those who have already bought heavily into NWO are almost overcompensating in their favor for this game. They are quick to randomize criticisms and warp them into pseudo-arguments. Like a lawyer, it's easy to twists an opponents words to your favour when you have a vested interest in winning the case.
Note: I would like to start my statement with the fact that I'm not a huge fan of 4E, but have been a long-standing player of both Pen & Paper and CRPG versions of D&D. From the early AD&D DragonLance PC games, to Forgotten Realms, to the Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale series, to NWN, to the current versions, I've not been more disappointed with gaming companies as the last 2 representations of the game.
Turbine started it. They broke following the game rule-set and started creating their own not-quite-d20-but-looks-like-d20 system. Level progression, skills, powers, spells, all started to wander away from the actual game mechanics. A true hard-won system that all D&D fans and fanatics enjoy. Making a game 'feel' like D&D isn't going to cut it for people looking for the real thing.
Now we see a second D&D labeled product, supported by WOC, that in no way actually addresses the game mechanics that form the make-up of D&D. I'm not only angry at Cryptic for seriously <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up something that could have been good, but seriously wonder what WOC was thinking when they decided to endorse a game that takes the game mechanics, and throws them out the window. Did they buy into this just for the 'artistic license' of D&D content? What fans want is take the basic aspects of their favorite game and play it in a graphical environment.
Yes, D&D fans are fond of 'whining' and every DM/GM has their own flavour or home-brew versions of the game rules. But one thing that you will find consistent with every D&D titled game, before DDO, is that they still used the base game mechanics. For what it's worth, NWO online is merely a re-imagination of D&D and should never wear the brand.
While the graphics are indeed lovely (though a little 'plastic' in appearance at times, but this is still beta), and the over all 'look' and 'feel' lends towards the promise of a good D&D game... The lack of the core rules is seriously a major drawback to my actually buying into the game. Coming from someone who has founding accounts in LotRO, STO & Secret World. There is so much content and material available into the D20 system that you don't need to reinvent classes. You don't need to create new items, or reinvent magical properties. The lack of specialization alone is the biggest issue. Why bother having a rogue when any class can dig up a Thievery Kit and ignore the fact they are missing a component in their party. Forcing actual class skills and customization encourages players to seek out others above 1st level so that they can get more out of the game. That is the whole purpose of an MMO, is it not? Cooperative and competitive play? If we are all canned into 4 classes that all have the same abilities, what's the point in having any customization at all. We might as well all play Diablo III and be done with it.
This game just feels like your average Asian Free-for-play-perks-for-pay knock-offs that have flooded the market in recent years.
If Perfect World and Cryptic want to win over D&D fans, and not just cater to kids with cash, they're going to have to go back and learn the D&D rule sets and actually apply the game mechanics to NWO, or you are seriously going to lose a large chunk of your fan-base.
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warbaby3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If Perfect World and Cryptic want to win over D&D fans, and not just cater to kids with cash, they're going to have to go back and learn the D&D rule sets and actually apply the game mechanics to NWO, or you are seriously going to lose a large chunk of your fan-base.
I notice that those who have already bought heavily into NWO are almost overcompensating in their favor for this game. They are quick to randomize criticisms and warp them into pseudo-arguments. Like a lawyer, it's easy to twists an opponents words to your favour when you have a vested interest in winning the case.
Note: I would like to start my statement with the fact that I'm not a huge fan of 4E, but have been a long-standing player of both Pen & Paper and CRPG versions of D&D. From the early AD&D DragonLance PC games, to Forgotten Realms, to the Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale series, to NWN, to the current versions, I've not been more disappointed with gaming companies as the last 2 representations of the game.
Turbine started it. They broke following the game rule-set and started creating their own not-quite-d20-but-looks-like-d20 system. Level progression, skills, powers, spells, all started to wander away from the actual game mechanics. A true hard-won system that all D&D fans and fanatics enjoy. Making a game 'feel' like D&D isn't going to cut it for people looking for the real thing.
Now we see a second D&D labeled product, supported by WOC, that in no way actually addresses the game mechanics that form the make-up of D&D. I'm not only angry at Cryptic for seriously <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up something that could have been good, but seriously wonder what WOC was thinking when they decided to endorse a game that takes the game mechanics, and throws them out the window. Did they buy into this just for the 'artistic license' of D&D content? What fans want is take the basic aspects of their favorite game and play it in a graphical environment.
Yes, D&D fans are fond of 'whining' and every DM/GM has their own flavour or home-brew versions of the game rules. But one thing that you will find consistent with every D&D titled game, before DDO, is that they still used the base game mechanics. For what it's worth, NWO online is merely a re-imagination of D&D and should never wear the brand.
While the graphics are indeed lovely (though a little 'plastic' in appearance at times, but this is still beta), and the over all 'look' and 'feel' lends towards the promise of a good D&D game... The lack of the core rules is seriously a major drawback to my actually buying into the game. Coming from someone who has founding accounts in LotRO, STO & Secret World. There is so much content and material available into the D20 system that you don't need to reinvent classes. You don't need to create new items, or reinvent magical properties. The lack of specialization alone is the biggest issue. Why bother having a rogue when any class can dig up a Thievery Kit and ignore the fact they are missing a component in their party. Forcing actual class skills and customization encourages players to seek out others above 1st level so that they can get more out of the game. That is the whole purpose of an MMO, is it not? Cooperative and competitive play? If we are all canned into 4 classes that all have the same abilities, what's the point in having any customization at all. We might as well all play Diablo III and be done with it.
This game just feels like your average Asian Free-for-play-perks-for-pay knock-offs that have flooded the market in recent years.
If Perfect World and Cryptic want to win over D&D fans, and not just cater to kids with cash, they're going to have to go back and learn the D&D rule sets and actually apply the game mechanics to NWO, or you are seriously going to lose a large chunk of your fan-base.
I think perhaps WoTc know that 4e is not the most popular rule-set, I also think they know Cryptic isn't the best reputed company. They are working on 5e, so why not win some new fans for DnD from the newer console generation.
I can't help but think they know the old DnD crowd won't be so much into this game but don't care as they are trying to win over some of the younger generation.
It's sucky but marketing generally targets the younger audience and will even modify things to sell to them as it has proven to be where there is the most money to make.
But one thing that you will find consistent with every D&D titled game, before DDO, is that they still used the base game mechanics.
Um... no, they didn't. The Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance series, Heroes of D&D, Forgotten Realms: Demon Stone and D&D: Dragonshard had almost nothing to do with the actual D&D mechanics. Also the game mechanics from one edition to the next always changed quite a bit leaving a lot of players angry at them.
Cryptic said that they are not using any edition of D&D as a basis for their game quite a while ago and they explained why - D&D editions are meant as a ruleset for turn-based games and are ill suited for action-combat gameplay. I can't agree more with that - D&D is a turn based system with lots of rolls to determine if you hit, miss or whatever because you have no player skill involved to show if you do. This is not the case here - it would be really bad if you dodge an attack on time but then it still hits you because the roll says it does or the other way around - you successfully land an attack before the enemy can dodge but you miss because the roll says so.
They said that they are using a system that is inspired by D&D but is well suited for the action MMO they are making. I think they did a great job with that as the system seems to work quite well and offers a lot of customization with great potential to expand on it. The system does not make rolls for obvious outcomes and player skill is involved in it quite a lot as you are required to actively aim, dodge and block the attacks. The variety of most of the skills in D&D comes from what you roll for - what stats are added to the roll and what you roll against, and as that is no longer required some serious changes had to be made in order to keep the system working and provide variety.
If you are disappointed in that the game does not follow the D&D rules then first - it is a computer game and not the first that does that and it works well, and second - they never hid the fact they are not using D&D rules in fact they announced it a long time ago.
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steppenkatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
There are some things you people must realise.
1- The D&D feel isn't about the rules having a Vancian spellcasting, GAC0 or any kind of system. It's about concept. What is D&D in the first place? A game where you play as a fantasy aventure while someone else narrates a story. It doesn't necesarily need to be a dirty dungeon, neither the foe needs to be a dragon. But the adventure should be epic, and the PCs the clear protagonists. It also favors pseudo-medieval concepts to form a particular flair: the rouge, the priest, the wizard and the fighter.
So ANY rule system that can be put all this to work while keeping a coherence between lore is a D&D game. Period. I don't care if I have to roll d20, d10 or percentage dice. Or even roll dice at all, for the sake of epic narration.
Maybe that's why I'm so open minded compared to many of my friends. As 4e came out I saw the new edition as an opportunity to play adventures with less "rule-pressure", compared to what 3.5 was. 4e is much more fluid and my players actually prefer this system after trying both.
2.- It's impossible to use vanilla D&D and make an MMO out of it. You'd need DMs 24/7 to make the world dinamic and responsive. And how can you make, let's say, ten thousand players to be PROTAGONISTS at the same time in a whole campaign?
"Yeah but that's obvious, Steepen. Duh." Well, then why are you complaining about standarization? And this brings up another issue. I've read lots of threads of the kind "OMG THE CW ISN'T OP THIS ISN'T D&D!" You mean the OP third edition wizard that shat on everyone else because of how unbalanced was arcane magic at high levels? (Which wasn't even meant for a PC to obtain anyways, just for antagonists) Another good thing about 4e is that it lowered the power levels of some clases while giving more to others, allowing to everyone to have their spotlight. You love to play a Fighter? Okay, then play one. You won't be only useful during the first four levels of the game, you'll actually do things after - the Wizard must rely on you from lvl 1 to 20.
3.- To be honest, the average MMO IS D&D. I mean, the whole concept of dungeon crawling with a healer, a tank, some DPSers and a controller is something that comes from D&D first edition. And let's not be hypocrites: besides a few exceptions, isn't every D&D group in a PnP campaign sharing roles? Doesn't someone pick the tank (fighter, paladin, barbarian, whatevs), the utility dpser (rouge), the controller (wizard) and the healer (cleric, druid...)? Let's not be cynical and badmouth things just because they're not the ones we're used to. It makes us sound like old veterans ("Back IN MY DAYS, youngster, dice weren't rolled in a PC!") and it only tries to excuse a petty feel of elitism and epeen throbbing.
The only difference between MMOs and PnP D&D is that the later allows PCs to be more a part of the story since it's MADE for them, they don't just participate in it like many other countless avatars just trying to survive the storyline. This is why I think WoW tired many people, specially after Burning Crusade. When I played the Lich King campaign, I felt like I was always a spectator of the glorious dickwaving between Arthas and Tyrion (I think he was called like that). My character was a scrub sent by either the Alliance or the Horde to serve as meatcannon in the front. And raids, oh well, we're just one of the hundreds of basic footmen units of WC3. There's no epicness involved. No inmersion.
However, Neverwinter has a different feeling. I felt part of the story since minute 1. The NPCs adress to ME, they talk to me and my advancement in the storyline gives me shiny titles and achievements I can notice. It has a rich lore and coherence. And lots and lots of dungeon crawling. My god, what's not D&D about it? It doesn't work by GAC0? I can't use Time Stop or Fireball? Yeah, what a bummer. So you're telling me that because I can't use an imaginary power A and instead I've got an imaginary power B, it can no longer be a fun imaginary story? Does that sound reasonable to you? Lol.
4.- The Foundry. You can be a DM. You can design whole campaigns. Sure, you can't customize 100% of things, but hey, when I do PnP games I work with a paper sheet and a pencil and my drawing skills suck. That doesn't prevent me from making fun stories and having my players enjoy them. It doesn't prevent me from enjoying RP.
Maybe I'm just an idealist and too positive, but I think that most rants are just vent-out frustration and the game doesn't deserve them.
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Maybe I'm just an idealist and too positive, but I think that most rants are just vent-out frustration and the game doesn't deserve them.
That's your opinion...
Given, there have been many games over the years that ran under the D&D label and not really used the actual rule set... BUT, all those games at least tried to adopt the rules in a meaningful way, when they did adopt them at all...
What ticks me of a little is this: Cryptic took a basic, run down the mill MMO system and disguised it as a D&D game. They took the classes, attributes, feats and some of the abilities/spells and plastered them onto a system solely to make it look like D&D. The classes resemble their counterparts in name only having been reduced to one dimensional knockoffs, the attributes and feats don't really do anything,... it all boils down to stacking a hand full of combat relevant stats (like power and crit) through a very limited item system that has nothing in common with the source material.
...and that's not an opinion, that's a fact...
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steppenkatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Given, there have been many games over the years that ran under the D&D label and not really used the actual rule set... BUT, all those games at least tried to adopt the rules in a meaningful way, when they did adopt them at all...
What ticks me of a little is this: Cryptic took a basic, run down the mill MMO system and disguised it as a D&D game. They took the classes, attributes, feats and some of the abilities/spells and plastered them onto a system solely to make it look like D&D. The classes resemble their counterparts in name only having been reduced to one dimensional knockoffs, the attributes and feats don't really do anything,... it all boils down to stacking a hand full of combat relevant stats (like power and crit) through a very limited item system that has nothing in common with the source material.
...and that's not an opinion, that's a fact...
Interesting. So my statements are opinions and yours, facts. In which basis? Sorry, I'm not trying to attack your opinions, but this is something that bugs me when people debate. Taking their considerations as dogmas doesn't really help to enforce one's point of view, neither to be objective when criticising something.
In my opinion (or facts, take it as you wish), this system simulates in some degree of similarity what 4th ed is. Many Encounter powers work as they do in PnP. We have similar mechanics: knockbacks, dazes, blast and bursts, AoEs... The action-point system really helps simulate the "resource-cost" that using a daily should enforce. And using potions makes up for the lack of healing surges, the main recovery mechanism used in 4th ed.
There are some things different for the sake of gameplay. Sure, you don't make attack roles, but that's because the combat system isn't turn-paced, right? You can actually DODGE things by using Teleport and stuff. If I ever had the option between using my own mechanical skill to dodge something or relying on a dice-roll to make my character do it, I think the choice is obvious: I'd prefer to do the effort myself, as it allows me to be more active in the fight. It helps a lot with inmersion. And I think it's more fun that rolling dice over and over? Is it a fact? I don't know, but in PnP some fights ended up being boring for me, compared to this game! I actually skipped the rolls for a few to make them faster.
Of course that this isn't PnP 4th ed by 100%, but I think that the devs never sold the game as being a literal translation of Core D&D Rulebooks to a game, but an adaptation of it using the Cryptic engine.
And about class customization, I agree that visually they should put more options. Mechanically... I hope that will be solved with upcoming releases, but do not confuse lack of variety with standard builds. There will ALWAYS be standard builds and they will ALWAYS be prevalent because it's easier to get started with those than to configure every single aspect of the character for the sake of being exclusive.
I've had this debate multiple times with friends and known people. And mostly we ended up agreeing that every single perk of your character doesn't need to manifestate in your dice rolls. What's the difference between two human Guardian Fighters with the same scores? One could be a 40 year old veteran with a scarred eye, cranky voice and well known for being able to slay a dragon on his youth. The other one could be a young knight seeking his first epic deed so he can gain reputation. Both use a longsword and a shield. Are they clones? Is concept variety denied because they're mechanically the same?
Actually, when many people complain about not being able to customize characters, I often end up noticing that they make the same type of avatars: usually Mary Sues with no flaws, being good at everything, the kind of cool guy that doesn't look at explosions and has a troubled past (amnesia, revenge, whatever). CN, of course, and probably an atheist (in a FR setting) as there's nothing more <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> than to swim against the current.
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
warbaby3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I wasn't trying to offend you or anything, but I indeed, have been stating simple facts:
Being the old, number-chrunching DM that I am, I took a good, long look at the systems at work behind the scenes of that game last weekend, and what I found was rather disheartening.
Attributes and feats only have a very slight impact on actual character performance... example:
A fighter with Constitution 20 has only marginally better HP then a one with, say CON 16... the differences are in the two digit area... not that great with three digit HP numbers. On the other hand, a fighter can very well find an item in the early stages of the game that'll boost his HP by 200+... that equals a CON attribute raise of 10+, something that is not even possible by D&D rules, let alone at early levels. Same goes for offensive attributes: Very little impact, since weapons overpower the small attribute bonuses in the first few character levels, leaving the power of a character governed by his gear.
Perfectly ok for an action MMO, you might say... true... but not for one that uses even the most basic D&D mechanics, I say.
Comments
So, I'll just say this: No online game will ever be the equivalent of traditional PNP D&D. NONE. Why? Because the human element is almost completely removed. There's no randomness to your choices, no consequences of your choices. From a programmer's standpoint, it would be impossible to try and provide for all the choices a person could conceivably make.
The only thing a game can ever do is try to make it more interactive, more "roleplay'ish" -- like I think it was Asheron's Call or was it Everquest where you actually had to type certain phrases back to NPC's to get them to give you quests. It wasn't always obvious what you had to say either. XD
You run across the problem that's adherent to most MMORPGs. People ignore the RPG part and just play the MMO "donkey-chase-the-carrot" part. How many RP servers on how many different games have complained about trolls rolling up on them and junking up their roleplay? Some people just don't want a roleplay experience, they just wanna "play the game".
The problem with most gaming companies is that the "play the game" folks are more prevalent than the "roleplaying" folks -- so that's the denominator they cater to. Until roleplayers really start getting vocal -- like REALLY vocal like the "play the game" whiners -- game companies aren't really going to listen.
(Unless you're Turbine, of course. They pay attention to their RP communities... 0_o)
a.) There is no freedom of choices that make you like real D&D you can make absurd characters that are fun to play becouse they play different way then everyone expect.
b.) World is nice curate but it is not LIVE, mobs still stay on its places without real reason and agenda ... that is what i expect from a real D&D
c.) I remember days of wait to make first lv in D&D .. now fey encounters not even first boss HARBRINGER and guy playing was already lv 4 !! that was my biggest NO NO this cannot be ..
Great game, fun, dinamic and i will play it but it is wrong to say it is D&D spirit of it was something else and still we will have to wait to see somone able to do it
2. This has been nothing short of annoying in any game I've ever played, why would it be in an ACTION ROLEPLAYING GAME INTERPRETATION OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. It has no baring on the meat of the game style chosen, THE COMBAT IS THE MEAT OF AN ACTION RPG. I apologize for my use of capital letters, but sometimes incessant whiners can't get the point unless you scream it to them.
3. See above, and get happy with the feat system we have in game, as its fairly closer to Fourth Edition than they certainly intended.
4. Wizards of the Coast, the publishers and stewards of the franchise(s) after the death of Gygax, Ed Greenwood, the creator of the Forgotten Realms Mythos, AND R.A. Salvatore, its most notable author and who's books the game is set AFTER have all approved of the game, what else does anyone need? I can point at D&D Daggerdale for a worse use of the licence, and DDO for being the Hardcore Loner version of Pen and Paper.
5. The fun in the pen in paper game is that you play it with your friends, NOT ALONE. Why would I want to play with dice, paper, and figurines by myself? And why would I want to play it in a video game? My friends aren't here, this isn't enjoyable anymore.
There, several reasons for you to buck up, because this fish is not a squirrel.
You obviously never played Dungeon Quest (which is fantastic played solo with dice, paper, figurines, card and cardboard). Of course you're likely to die on any given turn from an unlucky draw but what are you to do?
It's because NW doesn't feel like D&D 3 or 3.5. Instead Cryptic has done a fairly good job of making an MMO based on D&D 4.0. Using a real time combat engine in place of the games turn based combat. Despite that they have done a good job of capturing the mechanics and feel of D&D 4.0.
The problem for those who like 3.0 & 3.5 is that 4.0 is very structured and ridged. It basically was designed and written almost perfectly as a rules for a computer game/MMO. And part of the trade off to get that was the loss of flexibility you had in the previous versions of the game.
So when people complain it doesn't feel like D&D to them or it isn't flexible enough they are comparing NW to D&D 3.0 or D&D 3.5.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
So that may be part of the issue, folks expecting this to be like their favorite version of ADnD. Who knows? I just think it will do great.
(i dont my want my 10th lvl fighter be the same as everyone elses 10th lvl fighter
and then you have the others who say that everyone from the first group either needs to go back to wow (not liking this game = / = wow fanboy), doesnt understand 4e (wrong 4e isnt this restrictive), is just a whiner (wrong again those are valid criticisms), that having any choice whatsoever will mean pvp will be unbalanced (wrong again having choices doesnt mean pvp will go down the drain)
in 4e i could pick my class and then pick my powers...not pick a forced build and have it pick powers for me i could choose what types of gear i wanted to wear (with penalties for not being proficient if i wasnt proficient with the gear i picked)
Being based on 4e, this game should make an effort to actually be like 4e and allow power/ability choices. Those decisions make your characters matter and personalize your play experience.
Of all the D&D video games I have played over the years, this one is by far the least like its namesake.
That makes no sense. This game has almost nothing to do with 4e, or the any edition of D&D. I think the game is fun, I plan on playing it, I spent $60 on it, but I don’t think of it as a D&D game. I think of it as a MMO game based in the Neverwinter setting with totally different rules based only off of the D&D names.
4e is a set of rules. Any game in any setting based off of the OGL rules of 4e would be more D&D than this, since none of this games rules or mechanics are based off of D&D in any way but name.
This game plays very similar to GW2, but has a more traiditonal MMO approach to it, which I like. I give the advantage to GW2 in character building, but so far I have enjoyed this game more due to dungeons and foundry quests, and healing mechanics. Is it a 4e D&D game? No, not even a little. It is an MMO set in Neverwinter, which happens to be part of the FR campaign setting and owned by WotC, who publishes content for it under the D&D umbrella. WotC own D&D and happen to be on the 4th edition rules. This game is based as much on 4e as the Dragonlance or any D&D setting books are based off of whatever edition of rules are out when a book for the setting is written.
This does not make it a bad game. It just does not make it a D&D game for many fans of the previous titles.
Part of this is the 4th edition rules and another the very limited scope of character development the game offers. I made a devoted cleric and had to find out I'll be holding two symbol thingies and casting pretty much the same five spells for the rest of the game. Turning undead isn't even one of them and dang, it sure would be useful!
The last attempt at a D&D MMO, DDO, did get most D6Dish parts right. The dice, the Thac0, the spells and skills. It made different mistakes, such as the Eberon setting. The 3.5 rule set is also not for the faint of heart and grafics are pretty dated by now (Turbine never got the animations right). It still has a loyal following and Neverwinter first has to show how it does in the wild before counting the days of DDO.
Neverwinter may become a good and successful game on its own. The D&D part? Well, let's say I would not push that too much in marketing ...
Actually, there's 8 classes in the original PHB. If you meant all of them, you punctuated incorrectly. The game is going to launch with 4 classes (one having two paths) and add a 5th and 6th classes soon. The Warlord and the Paladin will be on the outside looking in, though hopefully a melee ranged healing class will be added soon (Inspiring Warlord?) and a second "tank class" (Avenging Paladin?).
But getting back to your point about game design, as someone who has done a little of it and understands some of the complexities... it's complex. You can't just open up all these skills to all the players. What happens is that you end up with everyone playing 3 classes. DDO does a great job of letting you build any class you want... And then you cannot get a group for the tough end-game content because you haven't followed certain cookie cutter builds. They opened things up, and gimped 98% of the class builds so that you can't use them. This is poor game design, and shouldn't be encouraged or repeated.
Eh maybe you haven't played in awhile but the Epic Destinies pretty much assure any kind of build is viable end game even in EE.
The great thing about DDO is that you can build a character that caters to your playstyle or objective. Sure if you make a flavor build it may not be quite as effective as a min/max build but that doesn't mean you can't do EE, it just means it will be a little more challenging and isn't challenge something many peeps whine there isn't enough of ?
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Bamda
I only reached 16 with a character so at higher levels my views may change but for now.
I know there is most likely never going to be a game that can fully bring the the D&D feel across especially an mmo style game.
There are plenty of things which I would have done differently If I had been in their shoes but then again there will be hundreds or thousands of players who would have done it differently to the devs and me and each other.
D&D has always had the books the artwork the plans etc which leads us all in a certain direction when we are imagining our old DM's descriptions during a session.
Of a group of 6 players it would be a good bet in their minds eye they all have their own unique picture of the DM's description.
So I would say it has a D&D feel especially the environments and interiors in the city which I did like a lot.
But for me.
To much WOW/WARHAMMER influence in npc's and characters and big numbers flashing around.
To little choice in abilities/skills and customization which is core to D&D at least to my minds eye at least.
I hope the foundry can give me my interpretation of the D&D feel.
Even if the foundry doesn't I can live with how D&D Neverwinter is for a fair while.
From the videos I have seen it looks and plays better than ddo, so in that aspect I'm feel secure. Now I just have to get my foundry pack and I can enjoy and leave DDO behind.
I agree completely with the above statement.........I was very fond of the 2nd Ed rules........IMHO everything after that was just "dumbing it down" for those that came after.
I really liked a lot of what 3e brought to the table. This was mainly the skills and classes themselves. That being said, I feel D&D started losing its way in 3e by bogging down combat too much and emphasising AoOs and arbitrary rules. Combat was far more enjoyable in 1st and 2nd edition as it was free flowing and less about exact positioning. Streamlining saving throws, ability checks, skill checks and attack bonus vs Armour class was more intuitive and resolved faster. The perfect ruleset for me would be a hybrid of 2e and the above mentioned 3e rules.
Note: I still consider Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil to be the only D&D computer game that truly did the rules justice. It's turn-based combat and rules implementation were miles ahead of NWN or Baldurs Gate.
Note: I would like to start my statement with the fact that I'm not a huge fan of 4E, but have been a long-standing player of both Pen & Paper and CRPG versions of D&D. From the early AD&D DragonLance PC games, to Forgotten Realms, to the Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale series, to NWN, to the current versions, I've not been more disappointed with gaming companies as the last 2 representations of the game.
Turbine started it. They broke following the game rule-set and started creating their own not-quite-d20-but-looks-like-d20 system. Level progression, skills, powers, spells, all started to wander away from the actual game mechanics. A true hard-won system that all D&D fans and fanatics enjoy. Making a game 'feel' like D&D isn't going to cut it for people looking for the real thing.
Now we see a second D&D labeled product, supported by WOC, that in no way actually addresses the game mechanics that form the make-up of D&D. I'm not only angry at Cryptic for seriously <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up something that could have been good, but seriously wonder what WOC was thinking when they decided to endorse a game that takes the game mechanics, and throws them out the window. Did they buy into this just for the 'artistic license' of D&D content? What fans want is take the basic aspects of their favorite game and play it in a graphical environment.
Yes, D&D fans are fond of 'whining' and every DM/GM has their own flavour or home-brew versions of the game rules. But one thing that you will find consistent with every D&D titled game, before DDO, is that they still used the base game mechanics. For what it's worth, NWO online is merely a re-imagination of D&D and should never wear the brand.
While the graphics are indeed lovely (though a little 'plastic' in appearance at times, but this is still beta), and the over all 'look' and 'feel' lends towards the promise of a good D&D game... The lack of the core rules is seriously a major drawback to my actually buying into the game. Coming from someone who has founding accounts in LotRO, STO & Secret World. There is so much content and material available into the D20 system that you don't need to reinvent classes. You don't need to create new items, or reinvent magical properties. The lack of specialization alone is the biggest issue. Why bother having a rogue when any class can dig up a Thievery Kit and ignore the fact they are missing a component in their party. Forcing actual class skills and customization encourages players to seek out others above 1st level so that they can get more out of the game. That is the whole purpose of an MMO, is it not? Cooperative and competitive play? If we are all canned into 4 classes that all have the same abilities, what's the point in having any customization at all. We might as well all play Diablo III and be done with it.
This game just feels like your average Asian Free-for-play-perks-for-pay knock-offs that have flooded the market in recent years.
If Perfect World and Cryptic want to win over D&D fans, and not just cater to kids with cash, they're going to have to go back and learn the D&D rule sets and actually apply the game mechanics to NWO, or you are seriously going to lose a large chunk of your fan-base.
Sad but true...
I think perhaps WoTc know that 4e is not the most popular rule-set, I also think they know Cryptic isn't the best reputed company. They are working on 5e, so why not win some new fans for DnD from the newer console generation.
I can't help but think they know the old DnD crowd won't be so much into this game but don't care as they are trying to win over some of the younger generation.
It's sucky but marketing generally targets the younger audience and will even modify things to sell to them as it has proven to be where there is the most money to make.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Cryptic said that they are not using any edition of D&D as a basis for their game quite a while ago and they explained why - D&D editions are meant as a ruleset for turn-based games and are ill suited for action-combat gameplay. I can't agree more with that - D&D is a turn based system with lots of rolls to determine if you hit, miss or whatever because you have no player skill involved to show if you do. This is not the case here - it would be really bad if you dodge an attack on time but then it still hits you because the roll says it does or the other way around - you successfully land an attack before the enemy can dodge but you miss because the roll says so.
They said that they are using a system that is inspired by D&D but is well suited for the action MMO they are making. I think they did a great job with that as the system seems to work quite well and offers a lot of customization with great potential to expand on it. The system does not make rolls for obvious outcomes and player skill is involved in it quite a lot as you are required to actively aim, dodge and block the attacks. The variety of most of the skills in D&D comes from what you roll for - what stats are added to the roll and what you roll against, and as that is no longer required some serious changes had to be made in order to keep the system working and provide variety.
If you are disappointed in that the game does not follow the D&D rules then first - it is a computer game and not the first that does that and it works well, and second - they never hid the fact they are not using D&D rules in fact they announced it a long time ago.
1- The D&D feel isn't about the rules having a Vancian spellcasting, GAC0 or any kind of system. It's about concept. What is D&D in the first place? A game where you play as a fantasy aventure while someone else narrates a story. It doesn't necesarily need to be a dirty dungeon, neither the foe needs to be a dragon. But the adventure should be epic, and the PCs the clear protagonists. It also favors pseudo-medieval concepts to form a particular flair: the rouge, the priest, the wizard and the fighter.
So ANY rule system that can be put all this to work while keeping a coherence between lore is a D&D game. Period. I don't care if I have to roll d20, d10 or percentage dice. Or even roll dice at all, for the sake of epic narration.
Maybe that's why I'm so open minded compared to many of my friends. As 4e came out I saw the new edition as an opportunity to play adventures with less "rule-pressure", compared to what 3.5 was. 4e is much more fluid and my players actually prefer this system after trying both.
2.- It's impossible to use vanilla D&D and make an MMO out of it. You'd need DMs 24/7 to make the world dinamic and responsive. And how can you make, let's say, ten thousand players to be PROTAGONISTS at the same time in a whole campaign?
"Yeah but that's obvious, Steepen. Duh." Well, then why are you complaining about standarization? And this brings up another issue. I've read lots of threads of the kind "OMG THE CW ISN'T OP THIS ISN'T D&D!" You mean the OP third edition wizard that shat on everyone else because of how unbalanced was arcane magic at high levels? (Which wasn't even meant for a PC to obtain anyways, just for antagonists) Another good thing about 4e is that it lowered the power levels of some clases while giving more to others, allowing to everyone to have their spotlight. You love to play a Fighter? Okay, then play one. You won't be only useful during the first four levels of the game, you'll actually do things after - the Wizard must rely on you from lvl 1 to 20.
3.- To be honest, the average MMO IS D&D. I mean, the whole concept of dungeon crawling with a healer, a tank, some DPSers and a controller is something that comes from D&D first edition. And let's not be hypocrites: besides a few exceptions, isn't every D&D group in a PnP campaign sharing roles? Doesn't someone pick the tank (fighter, paladin, barbarian, whatevs), the utility dpser (rouge), the controller (wizard) and the healer (cleric, druid...)? Let's not be cynical and badmouth things just because they're not the ones we're used to. It makes us sound like old veterans ("Back IN MY DAYS, youngster, dice weren't rolled in a PC!") and it only tries to excuse a petty feel of elitism and epeen throbbing.
The only difference between MMOs and PnP D&D is that the later allows PCs to be more a part of the story since it's MADE for them, they don't just participate in it like many other countless avatars just trying to survive the storyline. This is why I think WoW tired many people, specially after Burning Crusade. When I played the Lich King campaign, I felt like I was always a spectator of the glorious dickwaving between Arthas and Tyrion (I think he was called like that). My character was a scrub sent by either the Alliance or the Horde to serve as meatcannon in the front. And raids, oh well, we're just one of the hundreds of basic footmen units of WC3. There's no epicness involved. No inmersion.
However, Neverwinter has a different feeling. I felt part of the story since minute 1. The NPCs adress to ME, they talk to me and my advancement in the storyline gives me shiny titles and achievements I can notice. It has a rich lore and coherence. And lots and lots of dungeon crawling. My god, what's not D&D about it? It doesn't work by GAC0? I can't use Time Stop or Fireball? Yeah, what a bummer. So you're telling me that because I can't use an imaginary power A and instead I've got an imaginary power B, it can no longer be a fun imaginary story? Does that sound reasonable to you? Lol.
4.- The Foundry. You can be a DM. You can design whole campaigns. Sure, you can't customize 100% of things, but hey, when I do PnP games I work with a paper sheet and a pencil and my drawing skills suck. That doesn't prevent me from making fun stories and having my players enjoy them. It doesn't prevent me from enjoying RP.
Maybe I'm just an idealist and too positive, but I think that most rants are just vent-out frustration and the game doesn't deserve them.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
That's your opinion...
Given, there have been many games over the years that ran under the D&D label and not really used the actual rule set... BUT, all those games at least tried to adopt the rules in a meaningful way, when they did adopt them at all...
What ticks me of a little is this: Cryptic took a basic, run down the mill MMO system and disguised it as a D&D game. They took the classes, attributes, feats and some of the abilities/spells and plastered them onto a system solely to make it look like D&D. The classes resemble their counterparts in name only having been reduced to one dimensional knockoffs, the attributes and feats don't really do anything,... it all boils down to stacking a hand full of combat relevant stats (like power and crit) through a very limited item system that has nothing in common with the source material.
...and that's not an opinion, that's a fact...
Interesting. So my statements are opinions and yours, facts. In which basis? Sorry, I'm not trying to attack your opinions, but this is something that bugs me when people debate. Taking their considerations as dogmas doesn't really help to enforce one's point of view, neither to be objective when criticising something.
In my opinion (or facts, take it as you wish), this system simulates in some degree of similarity what 4th ed is. Many Encounter powers work as they do in PnP. We have similar mechanics: knockbacks, dazes, blast and bursts, AoEs... The action-point system really helps simulate the "resource-cost" that using a daily should enforce. And using potions makes up for the lack of healing surges, the main recovery mechanism used in 4th ed.
There are some things different for the sake of gameplay. Sure, you don't make attack roles, but that's because the combat system isn't turn-paced, right? You can actually DODGE things by using Teleport and stuff. If I ever had the option between using my own mechanical skill to dodge something or relying on a dice-roll to make my character do it, I think the choice is obvious: I'd prefer to do the effort myself, as it allows me to be more active in the fight. It helps a lot with inmersion. And I think it's more fun that rolling dice over and over? Is it a fact? I don't know, but in PnP some fights ended up being boring for me, compared to this game! I actually skipped the rolls for a few to make them faster.
Of course that this isn't PnP 4th ed by 100%, but I think that the devs never sold the game as being a literal translation of Core D&D Rulebooks to a game, but an adaptation of it using the Cryptic engine.
And about class customization, I agree that visually they should put more options. Mechanically... I hope that will be solved with upcoming releases, but do not confuse lack of variety with standard builds. There will ALWAYS be standard builds and they will ALWAYS be prevalent because it's easier to get started with those than to configure every single aspect of the character for the sake of being exclusive.
I've had this debate multiple times with friends and known people. And mostly we ended up agreeing that every single perk of your character doesn't need to manifestate in your dice rolls. What's the difference between two human Guardian Fighters with the same scores? One could be a 40 year old veteran with a scarred eye, cranky voice and well known for being able to slay a dragon on his youth. The other one could be a young knight seeking his first epic deed so he can gain reputation. Both use a longsword and a shield. Are they clones? Is concept variety denied because they're mechanically the same?
Actually, when many people complain about not being able to customize characters, I often end up noticing that they make the same type of avatars: usually Mary Sues with no flaws, being good at everything, the kind of cool guy that doesn't look at explosions and has a troubled past (amnesia, revenge, whatever). CN, of course, and probably an atheist (in a FR setting) as there's nothing more <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> than to swim against the current.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
Being the old, number-chrunching DM that I am, I took a good, long look at the systems at work behind the scenes of that game last weekend, and what I found was rather disheartening.
Attributes and feats only have a very slight impact on actual character performance... example:
A fighter with Constitution 20 has only marginally better HP then a one with, say CON 16... the differences are in the two digit area... not that great with three digit HP numbers. On the other hand, a fighter can very well find an item in the early stages of the game that'll boost his HP by 200+... that equals a CON attribute raise of 10+, something that is not even possible by D&D rules, let alone at early levels. Same goes for offensive attributes: Very little impact, since weapons overpower the small attribute bonuses in the first few character levels, leaving the power of a character governed by his gear.
Perfectly ok for an action MMO, you might say... true... but not for one that uses even the most basic D&D mechanics, I say.