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  • rosh#3730 rosh Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    @noworries#8859

    The way I think it should be done is to change the way awareness softcap works

    so let me clarify what i mean by that defense is not problem the problem is that now we have combat advantage which is damage multiplier that players on live did not feel it because we are overpowered so mechanic on live does not take effect fast enough, beside bosses not having combat advantage


    So my idea is SoftCapping the Awareness as following

    DPS character won't cap 3 defensive stats without sacrificing dps, so his benefit is partial to it
    Tanks would benefit the most

    So my idea is take 10% of Defense Rating of 5% of CritAvoidance Rating and 5% of Deflect
    and let it contribute to awareness that way tanks have it easier to cap awareness and they can shuffle some of their stats into accuracy

    so assuming Tank has 90% Defense, 90% Defense , 90% Deflect chance

    So from 90 x 0.1= 9% from Defense
    90 x 0.05 = 4.5% from Deflect
    90 x 0.05 = 4.5% from Critical Avoidance

    So a Tank would have 18% added to Awareness assuming a tank can cap all 3 stats which is not possible so it could be the last stat is 40% so rather than 4.5% it would be 2% but I am here assuming somehow a tank manages to do the impossible


    now let us take on a dps who is well rounded he would cap 1 stats to 50 -55 and the other secondary at 40%
    and the other defensive stat would be at 30% - 35%
    55% Defense
    40% Deflect
    34% Critical Avoidance

    so from 55 x 0.1 = 6.5% from Defense
    from 40 x 0.05 = 2% from Deflect
    from 34 x 0.05 = 1.2% from Critical Avoidance



    So a DPS would have that way 9.7% added to their awareness for well rounded melee dps like barbarian blademaster , rogue since they are at more dangerous positions than casters it would benefit them and since rogues and barbarians have forte if they build their character right they can have 57% awareness


    they can get their awareness to 57% that put them so their new awareness would be 57+9.7=66.7%
    so the damage they would take after subtracting the 55% defense is 45% Damage and 33.3% from combat advantage

    that would make melee dps good

    now for casters their awareness is like to be at 34-40 % so assuming it is 40% +9.7% = 49.7% almost 50% awareness

    given they are ranged classess (Casters) they cannot be infront of the boss and standing like a barbarian and rogue would

    I believe my suggestion would help tank adjust some of their stats in accuracy to help with lowering their mitigated damage and help with generating more threat beside taunts to keep aggro and helps melee dps to survive harsh hitting mobs and bosses with combat advantage and gives a ranged dps (caster) a soft cap of having 50% damage from Combat advantage

    This is my prespective of it from a Barbarian Blademaster, sweet spot for melee dps is 67% Awareness and ranged dps is 50% Awareness


    Defense is static damage mitigation but awareness is not and it is conditional based on if mobs have combat advantage or not
    I think defense is doing good but the problem is in awareness to be specific since it is a new mechanic that players have to respect it to properly play the content

    Thank you
    Post edited by rosh#3730 on
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    - S u g g e s t i o n s -

    1) Change Warlord's Insignia bonus from 20% to 10%, and r15 Indomitable from 40% to 30%

    Base companion damage is almost spot on now at 5-7%. Only a few companions are over 10%.. they should be identified and slightly nerfed. When a player runs 6x Indomitables with 3 warlords insignia bonuses and a Liiras Bel, they are multiplying the base damage by 6.12, which brings that 5-7% up to as high as 50%. This is the problem, not the base. Reducing Indomitable and Warlords turns the 6.12x multiplier to 4.20x.


    2) Change Deflect Mitigation Formula to (100 / (100 + (DeflectSeverity% x 2))

    Deflection has a situation similar to defense. At 90% deflect and severity... a character mitigates 81% of all damage. Rogues gain a boost to crit severity and there are limited sources available to increase it. Right now, a Rogue could go tank by maximizing Deflection. In the additive formula above, I multiplied by 2 because it costs twice as many stat points to create fully effective deflection. The maximum deflection would by 100/280 --> 35% damage taken, 65% of damage deflected.


    3) Have Augments augment an Attribute by +1

    In classic D&D, many of the Ioun stones boost attributes. Players are concerned that Augments will lose favor or that everyone will run the exact same augment type. If every augment boosts a different stat by +1, it makes Augments more special and unique.


    4) Accuracy should have a companion that boosts it by 7.5%


    5) The Roles Bonuses should support Playstyle and Stat needs better:

    Tank
    +10% Health
    +10% Incoming Healing
    +10% Combat Advantage
    +10% Awareness

    Healer
    +10% Control
    +10% Control Resist
    +10% Power
    +10% Critical Chance

    DPS
    +20% damage versus targets not targeting them

    What this setup does is make the 20% DPS bonus dependent on an ally having aggro. This means DPS that runs ahead of the party will not receive this bonus. Many players are worried about tank being too weak and having its role eroded. The setup above helps them in large battles. It adds 10% incoming Healing bonus to tank and takes the 10% outgoing healing bonus away from Healers. Healers need help getting Power and Crit up.
    Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
  • noworries#8859 noworries Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 624 Cryptic Developer

    @noworries#8859 If you are worried about confusion on the percentage number. You can also change the formula from

    x ( 1 - (Defense%) )

    to

    / ( 1 + (Defense%) )

    That way Defense has the same efficiency as Power and the values can stay as they are.

    We can look into that. Deflect Severity already has the option to work that way, it currently isn't on preview so that it functions the same as defense.

    Defense will be harder as it goes into core code shared by our other games, but we can see if it is feasible to get an option for it to work that way for Neverwinter.

  • elderislt#1066 elderislt Member Posts: 137 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    i not use any bug wich i know in previe, just poor aspect of pack with hunters
    BABY ZARIEL.... 270k base HUNTER
  • malistaire#9098 malistaire Member Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    - S u g g e s t i o n s -

    1) Change Warlord's Insignia bonus from 20% to 10%

    Companion damage is almost spot on now. Indomitable Runestones at R15 are competitive with stat runes. Now is the time to correct one major imbalance whitch helped lead to the Xuna & Abyssal Chicken 'problem' on live. With 6x Indomitable runestones, a companion deals 340% damage. (40x6 +100). 5xWarlords insignia multiplies this amount by 200% to become 680%. If Warlords Insignia are dropped to 10% boosters each, the max total becomes 77% of that... 510% total boost. At 10%, a warlords insignia is totally competitive still. Please adjust these before we start tweaking companion damage to the new system.

    Just like all other insignia bonuses, Warlord's Inspiration doesn't stack 5x. It can stack a max of 3 times and each stack is half the effectiveness of the previous one. You get a maximum of 20% + 10% + 5% = 35% damage bonus from mount insignias.

    When calculating the total % damage, you can't factor the base damage into the additional % damage. It doesn't paint an accurate picture.

    Using Xuna as an example: She does 18k enc dps just by herself.


    Now look at the damage Xuna does with 6x Indomitable Runestones and 3x Warlord's Inspiration.


    Now lets look at the percent change in damage. We expect to see an increase of 240% from Indomitable Runestones x 35% from Warlords Inspiration = 324% total damage increase

    [(77,780.80 - 18,219.96) / 18,219.96 ] * 100 = 326.8%

    So with 6x Indomitable Runestones and 3x Warlords Inspiration we get a 326% damage boost to our companions.

    Compare the damage of Xuna to player damage:


    Once I min/max my build I expect I'll have 150k-180k encdps.

    So at base without anything boosting companion damage, Xuna does about 12% of my total damage. Fully buffed, Xuna does about 50% of my damage. Atm Xuna's base damage feels like it's in a good place. Fully buffed I think the damage may be a little bit much. I would suggest decreasing the bonus from Indomitable runestones to be 30% rather than 40%. This brings the total bonus for 6x Indomitable Runestones down to 180%. Multiply that with the 35% bonus from Warlord's Inspiration and we get a 243% damage bonus. This will result in a companion encdps of about 45k which is roughly 30% of an endgame dps's total damage.

    This way companion builds are viable for people who dont want to play as dps or can't play as dps (paladins), while still not overshadowing the damage a dps character can do.

  • tardbathtardbath Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    1 Make indomi to be 1 per usage like tenebrous!
    2 Remove the ability to stack multiple times insignia bonuses, it's a rly nice opportunity to get rid of this multi insignia bonus stacking with all these changes.

    * exchange those indomi runes like empowered
    ** keep the indomi as it is and make them %4-5 per r15 indomi

    Cheers
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,060 Arc User
    The question is: Do we want a 1 companion only meta?

    And the second question: If companions can go up to 50% of damage of a dps and developers said they want 7% of players damage, is not obviously broken?

    I want all or most companions to be viable, and not mandatory to have one if you want to dps. Also companions should be a little help for end gamers and a big help for new players
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
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  • achrousachrous Member Posts: 5 Arc User

    @noworries#8859 If you are worried about confusion on the percentage number. You can also change the formula from

    x ( 1 - (Defense%) )

    to

    / ( 1 + (Defense%) )

    That way Defense has the same efficiency as Power and the values can stay as they are.

    We can look into that. Deflect Severity already has the option to work that way, it currently isn't on preview so that it functions the same as defense.

    Defense will be harder as it goes into core code shared by our other games, but we can see if it is feasible to get an option for it to work that way for Neverwinter.

    Formula / ( 1 + (Defense%) ) worse than 45% (25%+20%) cap.

    Situation a) Formula / ( 1 + (Defense%) )
    The damage dealer can easy (relatively, see screenshot from elderislt#1066 ) gain 50% defense.
    He will take 66.6% of incoming damage.
    The tank will be able to gain 90% defense.
    He will take 52.6% of incoming damage.
    The difference between a damage dealer and a tank is only 14%.

    Situation b) Cap 45%
    The damage dealer can easy (relatively) gain 25% defense.
    He will take 75% of incoming damage.
    The tank will be able to gain 45% defense.
    He will take 55% of incoming damage.
    The difference between a damage dealer and a tank is 20%.

    Situation b) is better on all counts. The damage to the tank is higher, the damage to the damage dealer is significantly higher, the difference between them is higher.

    Just use your Situation b) and tune HP well (bonus for tanks, penalty for damage dealers), not forgetting the need for a healer in the group.
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User
    Survivability has always been something of a dilemma in this game. On the one hand, if you create a system where reasonable stat investments will make a dps player survivable, then there's always the possibility of someone going to extreme measures to attain extreme survivability (e.g. my ranger as I posted above). Now, you can install hard caps to prevent this, but then we're back to the situation where everyone is running around capped when it comes to something like defense. Because of this, I don't think a stat-only solution will both grant survivability and ensure separation between tanks and dps. I think there will have to be an element that is based on paragon path in one way or another.
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  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    rubytrue said:


    Lets be honest here, the problem isn't with the 90% defense/damage reduction (or how it scales);

    [...]

    If 45% is merely a softcap, then you still haven't solved the problem: I will use combat balance (now at 55%); use Angel of Protection (now at 60%); equip a Shadowclad for another 4-32% damage reduction (we'll go at the low end and now we are at 64% damage reduction); pop Iron Warrior for an additional 20% damage reduction (we're up to 84%) and couple that with Bladed Rampart and its 30% damage reduction, no combat advantage damage, and 260Mag damage to enemies--this puts me at 114% damage reduction.

    If they reduce the cap to 45%, they'll probably keep the current (live) behavior where different mitigation sources stack multiplicatively, and we would have
    0.55 * 0.9 * 0.95 * 0.68 * 0.8 * 0.7 = 0.179 => 82.1% total mitigation with all the things you mentioned.

    82.1% mitigation in a very specific scenario (max shadowclad stacks, full ap for daily, cooldown ready for Iron Warrior) versus 90% mitigation all the time. And there's more: 82.1% seems quite close to 90%, but it isn't. 90% mitigation results in an effective HP 79% higher than having "just" 82.1% mitigation.

    People frequently say how Power has "diminishing returns", in such a way that adding more power becomes less effective the more power you have. What people don't frequently talk about is: Defense, as currently implemented, has this too, but reversed. Adding more Defense will become more effective as your Defense goes up. And when we talk about really high values, we have this extreme degeneration where increasing Defense by just 7.9% , from 82.1 to 90%, will increase your effective HP by 79%.

    This is the problem with the way Defense currently scales on preview, and why it's probably a good idea to change it. Then again, having the cap lowered to 45% creates some problems like you and Rainer noted, so probably implementing the new formula Rainer suggested would be a better idea (as long as Tank bonus HP is increased).

    And here's the math about the effective HP:

    Effective HP = Total HP / (mitigation multiplier)
    Mitigation multiplier = 1 - mitigation

    For 82.1% mitigation, EffHp_A = HP/0.179
    For 90% mitigation, EffHp_B = HP/0.1

    EffHp_B/EffHp_A = (HP / 0.1) / (HP/0.179) = (HP/0.1) * (0.179/HP) = 0.179/0.1 = 1.79 => EffHp_B is 79% higher than EffHp_A => 90% mitigation increases your effective HP by 79%.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,060 Arc User


    DPS
    +20% damage versus targets not targeting them

    This concept is not the same as Combat Advantage?

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  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,060 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    I would like to talk more about the permanent CA from bosses. Or is it set in stone already?

    3 possible ideas come to mind:
    - Make bosses have CA when they are focusing the same person for X attacks. For example when they change from tank to dps (agro loss), the first attacks dont have CA, so the tank can have time to recover agro, but the tanks are still needed.

    - Make Some attacks (not all) have CA

    - Make only single target attacks (not area ones that affect everyone) have CA
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
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  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User


    DPS
    +20% damage versus targets not targeting them

    This concept is not the same as Combat Advantage?

    Not same. As long as you are attacking an enemy that is NOT attacking you, you gain +20% damage. In other words... if your on the top of their threat list, you don't get a bonus. Unlike CA, the DPS bonus would not require positioning.


  • rainer#8575 rainer Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    edited December 2020



    the question is: if the DPS can put 90% power for 90% more damage, why can't the tank's 90% defense give him 90% reduction?

    See this is where it goes wrong. Defense and power are not working the same like that, at least not now.
    Power 0% hit: 1000 dmg (out)
    Power 90% hit: 1900 dmg (out)

    Defense 0% hit: 1000 dmg (in)
    Defense 90% hit: 100 dmg (in)
    You can see that defense reduces dmg by a factor of 10! While power increases damage by a factor of 1.9. There's a big big big big difference. With the / ( 1 + defense% ) all of a sudden defense does have a factor of 1.9 just like power. Also it removes the risk that tanks somehow hit the 100% defense mark with certain skills/powers and take 0 damage which would be a factor infinite....



    By the way - my suggestion did include that tanks should have powers to go (far) beyond the 90% during combat to tank the big hits. That way tanks don't just stand around and soak damage, they actually have to time skills properly to take big hits (hits that still will one-shot a dps). Passive mitigation in my opinion is bland and lazy.

    I also added a buff to the tank HP% bonus to make the gap slightly bigger. I can see that the diminishing returns make the gap a bit too small.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 652 Arc User
    @rainer Personally, as long as the difference between defence and everything else is gone, it will be improvement.

    But don't say passive mitigation is bland and lazy, when passive increasing HP is mathematically literally the same - except an added burden onto the healers.
  • rainer#8575 rainer Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    @rainer Personally, as long as the difference between defence and everything else is gone, it will be improvement.

    But don't say passive mitigation is bland and lazy, when passive increasing HP is mathematically literally the same - except an added burden onto the healers.

    Ok maybe that was a bit over the top. What I meant to say is 'too high passive mitigation is bland and lazy'. At 90% mitigation there isn't much to heal for the healers... so why bring a healer in the first place?

    The HP part, you're right - but that was just a fix to increase the gap slightly.. A little extra HP comes nowhere near the current defense%. With the right powers you might even get away not increasing HP, because tanks get tanky by using skills.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,060 Arc User
    I also think that is better to give tanks cool powers and features to mitigate damage. Stats are available to everyone, and active mitigation is more fun, that stay like an iron golem watching how you are immortal.

    Tanks should have more easy to cap defensive stats, but stats should not be enough to protect from the most deadly hits, even if you face lots of ads and not bosses you should be at high risk.
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  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 194 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    I also think that is better to give tanks cool powers and features to mitigate damage. Stats are available to everyone, and active mitigation is more fun, that stay like an iron golem watching how you are immortal.

    Tanks should have more easy to cap defensive stats, but stats should not be enough to protect from the most deadly hits, even if you face lots of ads and not bosses you should be at high risk.

    Change absolution and iron warrior into HP buffs, we both have dailies that give us a boost to hp, same as barbs and that's how they've been playing this whole time. We still can use wyvern/griffon to lower enemies' damage, some dps like warlock's at wills and one encounter from rogues can lower boss' damage. It becomes a team effort for tanks to survive their hits, just like its a team effort for dps to survive AoEs. Saying that barbs using their daily and encounter for extra hp to survive was any different from fighter using damage reductions? or a pally from using a mix of between daily and encounter?

    rikitaki said:

    @rainer Personally, as long as the difference between defence and everything else is gone, it will be improvement.

    But don't say passive mitigation is bland and lazy, when passive increasing HP is mathematically literally the same - except an added burden onto the healers.

    Ok maybe that was a bit over the top. What I meant to say is 'too high passive mitigation is bland and lazy'. At 90% mitigation there isn't much to heal for the healers... so why bring a healer in the first place?

    The HP part, you're right - but that was just a fix to increase the gap slightly.. A little extra HP comes nowhere near the current defense%. With the right powers you might even get away not increasing HP, because tanks get tanky by using skills.
  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 59 Arc User

    I would like to talk more about the permanent CA from bosses. Or is it set in stone already?

    3 possible ideas come to mind:
    - Make bosses have CA when they are focusing the same person for X attacks. For example when they change from tank to dps (agro loss), the first attacks dont have CA, so the tank can have time to recover agro, but the tanks are still needed.

    - Make Some attacks (not all) have CA

    - Make only single target attacks (not area ones that affect everyone) have CA

    I made an elaborate suggestion about how the CA could be added to the Boss in order to be more relevant to the tank than to dps for example. but as i am not a good mathematician i think that my idea without an example of calculation can go unnoticed.

    @nitocris83 @noworries#8859

    Awareness and HP

    Hello, I'm doing it through google translator, so forgive me for any concordance errors.

    I would like to make a suggestion regarding awareness, instead of simply placing additional damage on the boss, why not add progressive damage to the current target of the boss, adding X of extra damage, every Y second in combat with a limit of up to Z times per. similar to the damage scheduling that the Halaster skill applies so that with slightly less damage added, think of it this way, if the tank is getting the Boss’s attention all the time, this makes the Boss focused on ending this aldo giving him the advantage of progressive combat. Hypothetical example: every 5 seconds in combat the target the boss is focused on takes 20% more damage and can stack up to 5 times. This effect is removed if the boss changes targets for more than 30 seconds. Understand that I'm not a mathematician, I'm just exemplifying how it can work in theory.

    This leaves the window for another relationship in the new system which is the high HP of DPS and Healer. 10x TIL in HP for DPS and Healer seems to me a very high value, I think it would be more consistent for these roles to have less base HP, maybe 5x TIL. this can have a direct impact on the awareness system that I suggested above. as it allows tanks to benefit better from their status and their base HP, since Dungoen’s mechanics will do more damage to it based on combat time, while DPS and Healer don’t need as much HP to survive the mechanics since they are not affected by the Boss's combat advantage, unless the tank loses aggro at some point. I think this makes the discrepancy between the tank's HP and DPS / Healer bigger so that the extra HP choices for these enchants and mounts roles are taken into account according to combat type.
  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 59 Arc User



    the question is: if the DPS can put 90% power for 90% more damage, why can't the tank's 90% defense give him 90% reduction?

    See this is where it goes wrong. Defense and power are not working the same like that, at least not now.
    Power 0% hit: 1000 dmg (out)
    Power 90% hit: 1900 dmg (out)

    Defense 0% hit: 1000 dmg (in)
    Defense 90% hit: 100 dmg (in)
    You can see that defense reduces dmg by a factor of 10! While power increases damage by a factor of 1.9. There's a big big big big difference. With the / ( 1 + defense% ) all of a sudden defense does have a factor of 1.9 just like power. Also it removes the risk that tanks somehow hit the 100% defense mark with certain skills/powers and take 0 damage which would be a factor infinite....



    By the way - my suggestion did include that tanks should have powers to go (far) beyond the 90% during combat to tank the big hits. That way tanks don't just stand around and soak damage, they actually have to time skills properly to take big hits (hits that still will one-shot a dps). Passive mitigation in my opinion is bland and lazy.

    I also added a buff to the tank HP% bonus to make the gap slightly bigger. I can see that the diminishing returns make the gap a bit too small.
    I understood better, thanks for the explanation, I think that if you put enemies with 90% power, and make the defense accountant things can improve (but leave the visual 90% defense), putting in the status description that power and defense are countersunk.
    when with HP I really care about the amount of HP that DPS is taking compared to the tank. I am a main healer but I would love to see tanks with a greater purpose of their role increasing their appreciation.

    @rainer#8575 As for Boss's CA, I am concerned about the way he is being taken, it seems to me only a second defense. Did you actually read my post on Awareness and HP? Could you tell me in a mathematical view if it could be functional and how would this calculation be? feel free to change anything you think is relevant, what matters in my view is the concept I suggested to the CA / Conception and if it can be functional.
  • darshu212darshu212 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    i dont think the defense is de the real problem, a tank should get more damage than a dps, not to be unkilleable, but to resist more, if not for defense, for mechanics.
    At least for me, the real problem is to be "just" a Wall, with no damage, and that's the way the game is going to finish with tanks at this rate, Ofc this game is a mmo and u have to play content with other people, but, for some solo content, a wall, with no damage, is just .... Boring.
    Not saying that tanks should have a damage equal to others, but enough to not make the playstile boring

    Also dps, should have enough def to not be 1 shooted, or the healer is just for tanks? whats the sense for a healer, if the dps dies in 1? just making the game more and more boring
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 900 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    With mod 16 changes it where introduced Opposing Rolls feature.

    Armour penetration counter defence,
    Accuracy counter deflect,
    Awareness counters Combat advantage.


    You flank enemies or player, gain CA and you are rewarded with increased dealt dmg.
    You make mistake and got surrouned or get in postion which lead enemies/ players gain CA against you. And for that you are punished by increased incoming dmg.


    The Combat advantage is very core of action combat gameplay. And awareness diminish such gameplay. More precise, there is no punishment if player position himself in bad situation. Gameplay become just stats/gear benchmark.
    Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
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  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,327 Arc User
    Also i have a question the heals really cap at 50% power or it is a bug ? Did i miss dev comment about this?>
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    End-game DPS will have about 600,000 Health and receive 33% of all incoming damage in the Rainer proposal.
    End-game Tanks will have about 1,000,000 Health and receive 10% of all incoming damage in the Rainer proposal.

    Tanks will be able to withstand 5.55 times as much damage as a DPS. If that's not tanky enough, i suggest giving tanks a 10% incoming healing bonus, and possibly, an inherent boost to awareness. If you look at the numbers... the worries that no one will need a tank are unfounded. Tanks will be essential in all dungeons. Their defense will not make them immortal and they will need to be healed in pressure. This is how it should be.
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