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  • hastati96hastati96 Member Posts: 466 Arc User

    End-game DPS will have about 600,000 Health and receive 33% of all incoming damage in the Rainer proposal.
    End-game Tanks will have about 1,000,000 Health and receive 10% of all incoming damage in the Rainer proposal.

    Tanks will be able to withstand 5.55 times as much damage as a DPS. If that's not tanky enough, i suggest giving tanks a 10% incoming healing bonus, and possibly, an inherent boost to awareness. If you look at the numbers... the worries that no one will need a tank are unfounded. Tanks will be essential in all dungeons. Their defense will not make them immortal and they will need to be healed in pressure. This is how it should be.

    I think most people forget that every tank has a shield for 40% of its HP, up to 75% so you should rather calculate with at least 1.4mio HP. I totally agree with what you have said. There is a huge gap between DPS and tanks. A tank won't be replaced by a DPS easily any time soon.
    Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 337 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    There have been two suggestions to hinder tanks to offset the 90% def that I really like, first being @alquimistgg#0914 's when it comes to progressive damage, the second being being @rubytrue 's debuffs, as it allows tanks to decide on different builds and allows things like iron warrior/bladed rampart to still have a use. In the first situation, we become very reliant on dps to do damage fast enough, while healers having to increasingly be more active with their heals. The second makes for tanks to have to pay close attention to their debuffs, as a non-threatening attack may quickly become lethal if you're not paying attention.
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 337 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    arazith07 said:

    @noworrries do the simple : reduce aoe unavoidable damage for dps to able to survive and dont touch the 90% defence cap.

    DPS if get aggro should die 1 hit no matter what.

    This doesn't solve the issue of defense being too powerful when compared to the other defensive stats.
    No, but Rubytrue's does. I'd rather they make changes that promote the roles and have unique mechanics added in, while fixing the flaws that are currently left in the game than simply changing how def acts. A boss that lowers a tank's def from 90% to 70%, who ignored crit avoid leaving it at 40% ends up severely punished. Changes to how AoE aggro is managed is a fix, tanks should be the one with aggro, so fix our AoE powers. Going with the quick fix does nothing to help tanks.


    Alquim's suggestion gives Healer's what they want, makes their healing useful while also not increasing tank's max hp.

    Make AoEs with the intended target in mind, if its a red zone that's meant to kill all, kill all who stand in it. If its meant to test the survivability of the dps, base it off their intended stats, or base it off the intended stats post buffs/dailies ect.

    Both gives agency to the players, rather than "Lets bum rush mobs and go. Ah tank loss aggro, he'll get it back in 5 seconds." Instead tanks have to do their job properly, just like if dps fail a dps check we all fail, just like if dps don't free people from imps in IC, someone dies. Just like healers fail chains, tank dies. Just like healer fails healing through heatwave, well, most die. There is punishment for lack of action. Sorry, but I don't want, after all these changes, 10s of million of ADs later, dozens of trade bars later, for their to be no change from live where dps run amuck in dungeons not caring about anything, while tank is completely useless.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 906 Arc User
    > @noworries#8859 said:
    > We have a build coming up where we have Defense and Deflect Severity swapped over to the same scale as other attributes so we will be testing that out, see how it is going and continue to make adjustments from there.
    >
    > This means that defense will still go up to 90%, but like 100% power would double damage, 100% Defense would halve damage.

    This is great news for the tanks!
    Did you do any adjustments to critter armor penetration or to tank paragons +% HP?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    rubytrue said:

    We have a build coming up where we have Defense and Deflect Severity swapped over to the same scale as other attributes so we will be testing that out, see how it is going and continue to make adjustments from there.

    This means that defense will still go up to 90%, but like 100% power would double damage, 100% Defense would halve damage.

    If you wind up going through with this on live eventually, remind me again why I should play a tank, please.....

    Mod 20: Curse of the Archlich's Wet Noodle.


    You'll still have more defensive stats than a DPS will. A DPS class will normally be around 40-50% defense, which would equate to taking 80-75% of the damage original damage compared to a tanks 45% @90%. This also makes it where a Tank doesn't have to stack defense before anything else, or least where people will consider it more.
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    rubytrue said:

    We have a build coming up where we have Defense and Deflect Severity swapped over to the same scale as other attributes so we will be testing that out, see how it is going and continue to make adjustments from there.

    This means that defense will still go up to 90%, but like 100% power would double damage, 100% Defense would halve damage.

    If you wind up going through with this on live eventually, remind me again why I should play a tank, please.....

    Mod 20: Curse of the Archlich's Wet Noodle.


    You'll still have more defensive stats than a DPS will. A DPS class will normally be around 40-50% defense, which would equate to taking 80-75% of the damage original damage compared to a tanks 45% @90%. This also makes it where a Tank doesn't have to stack defense before anything else, or least where people will consider it more.
    Because of the hard cap, we didn't *have* to stack defense before....now we have even less of a reason to do so. All this does is make us less damaging dps, and keeps the whiny pew pew boys at bay because now they don't have to make any choices that have any consequences to their gameplay.
  • rosh#3730 rosh Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    We have a build coming up where we have Defense and Deflect Severity swapped over to the same scale as other attributes so we will be testing that out, see how it is going and continue to make adjustments from there.

    This means that defense will still go up to 90%, but like 100% power would double damage, 100% Defense would halve damage.

    For Testing Purpose Sure no problem and making Tanks viable and have importance sure absolutely

    But when thinking about such thing for damage .. did you guys think about Melee DPS for real , you know we are also dps and exist so it is not just Ranged (Caster) DPS ?

    like why not say Defense % negates 2/3 of incoming Damage Rather than 1/2 .. what was the thought process behind that i am really interested to know how this was brainstormed in your scrum meeting
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 239 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    We have a build coming up where we have Defense and Deflect Severity swapped over to the same scale as other attributes so we will be testing that out, see how it is going and continue to make adjustments from there.

    This means that defense will still go up to 90%, but like 100% power would double damage, 100% Defense would halve damage.

    Two questions:

    1) Was boss damage (Halaster and Zariel) been adjusted to the new scale, or we can expect this to happen in a later patch?
    - EDIT: Answered in the patch notes thread. That was fast lol

    2) How extra mitigations will work with this new scale? As 90% defense will be less than 50% actual mitigation, it would be reasonable to have other mitigation powers and effects go over it. On live, extra mitigations goes over the 50% defense cap up to a 80% hard cap, but the hard cap is difficult to reach because they stack multiplicatively. It's quite a good system IMO. Can we expect something similar? The idea given earlier in this thread where extra mitigations are added in the divisor [ damage = base/( 1 + D + B ), where D is defense capped at 90% and B is the sum of other mitigations ] is also interesting.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    rubytrue said:

    arazith07 said:

    rubytrue said:

    We have a build coming up where we have Defense and Deflect Severity swapped over to the same scale as other attributes so we will be testing that out, see how it is going and continue to make adjustments from there.

    This means that defense will still go up to 90%, but like 100% power would double damage, 100% Defense would halve damage.

    If you wind up going through with this on live eventually, remind me again why I should play a tank, please.....

    Mod 20: Curse of the Archlich's Wet Noodle.


    You'll still have more defensive stats than a DPS will. A DPS class will normally be around 40-50% defense, which would equate to taking 80-75% of the damage original damage compared to a tanks 45% @90%. This also makes it where a Tank doesn't have to stack defense before anything else, or least where people will consider it more.
    Because of the hard cap, we didn't *have* to stack defense before....now we have even less of a reason to do so. All this does is make us less damaging dps, and keeps the whiny pew pew boys at bay because now they don't have to make any choices that have any consequences to their gameplay.
    When bosses have to take into account that 9/10ths of their damage in gone because of one stat, devs will increase the heck out of those attacks. Now if a tank who doesn't have 90% with the current system on preview were to face that attack, they won't have a means to survive unless they stack 90% defense. How is this a choice in your opinion?

    You have a 5 million damage tank buster hit from a boss (9mil after CA). Now you have a geared DPS with 50% on all defensive stats, That 5mil hit will become 3.5mil after Awareness and defense, will either crit for 4.9mil or not crit, and deflect severity is too low to make deflection any good. Either of these cases, the dps is dead, which is okay really because it's a tank buster and really isn't why they want to do this change.

    Now for a tank who doesn't invest in defense (as you say is possible) They can either go awareness, deflect/severity, or crit avoid. I think crit avoid we can ignore due to RNG and low enemy severity. So let's use awareness and deflect/sev. All defensive stats will be at least 45%, with 75% awareness, and 90% deflect/deflect severity. That same hit will be 3.3mil after awareness and defense, could crit for 4.8mil. Now we have a 90% chance to deflect it, which is pretty good, and that deflection can bring the crit down to 330k damage or 480k damage, yay the tank lives! But if we don't deflect it, either the crit or the non-crit will kill the tank. 10% chance of dying on a tank buster isn't a good build, especially when you rez, you lose 10% more defense.

    Now for the 90% defense tank, we'll move the deflect chance over from above. After awareness and defense, that hit will only do 600k, or crit for 930k. 45% chance to deflect it down to 93k crit or 60k hit.

    Now, for balance, that tank buster will likely have to be increased to balance in endgame content to actually bust a tank. So the non-defense tank will have an even worse time trying to survive. Defense as it stands on the preview server is too powerful to not stack it. It doesn't even come close to any other defensive stat.

    What the devs are proposing is to make defense more in line with what the other stats can do, and bring the damage totals down (though still being deadly for non tanks)
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,220 Arc User

    We have a build coming up where we have Defense and Deflect Severity swapped over to the same scale as other attributes so we will be testing that out, see how it is going and continue to make adjustments from there.

    This means that defense will still go up to 90%, but like 100% power would double damage, 100% Defense would halve damage.

    For Testing Purpose Sure no problem and making Tanks viable and have importance sure absolutely

    But when thinking about such thing for damage .. did you guys think about Melee DPS for real , you know we are also dps and exist so it is not just Ranged (Caster) DPS ?

    like why not say Defense % negates 2/3 of incoming Damage Rather than 1/2 .. what was the thought process behind that i am really interested to know how this was brainstormed in your scrum meeting
    Melee dps aren't taking the tank busters either. They normally have the same attacks to avoid as the ranged dps do. Being behind a boss is normally just as 'safe' as being at ranged.
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User
    rubytrue said:



    Right now, on preview, damage reduction feats, powers, items, and companions have to respect the 90% defense hard cap. One of the nice things about the new combat system is that I have a *choice* (apparently the whole reason for the change to the combat system in the first place) as to how I reach that cap as a tank. Any tank that was actually shooting for 90% defense was a fool in my opinion: Why would I want 90% defense if I reached that damage reduction hard cap by other means? It was far better for me to put points that would of gone into defense into balancing my crit avoid, awareness, and deflect granting me 10% damage reduction; I could get another 5% damage reduction from Angel of Protection; I was farming Undermountain again to try and get the Hell's Heel Clackers for its +3% damage reduction; the list can go on and on.

    Lets be honest here, the problem isn't with the 90% defense/damage reduction (or how it scales); the problem is that DPS don't want to make the choices necessary to ensure their survival at the expense of their epeen dps rankings. Getting 50% defense really isn't a problem for anyone; want more defense than that? Use a Holy Avenger weapon enchant instead of your bilethorn or vorpal (of course, Feytouched would functionally be equivalent to defense with the enemy damage reduction); maybe use a companion that grants you damage reduction like Angel of Protection rather than Xuna or an augment; try slotting a Green Slime (for +7.5% other defense) or a Cantankerous Mage (for +3.5% defense/accuracy) instead of Staldorf or Black Dragon Ioune Stone in your companion bonus slots; instead of using Barkshield, try using a Shadowclad or Negation enchant. Pop a R10 Potion of Defense+1 instead of the Potion of Potency. DPS, if they *choose* can get pretty close the the 90% defense cap. If the poo is still hitting the fan, maybe the tank can do their job and pop a phalanx or other group damage reduction daily.

    The fact of the matter is that DPS have a *lot* of options to increase their survivability. (DPS complain about the Power boons of not being any use, but have they taken a look at the utility in the healing potion boons and how that might add to their survivability?)

    Being able to *choose* whether or not you were a complete glass cannon or had some measure of survivability was a *feature* of the new combat system, not a flaw.

    If you cap defense at 45%; there is absolutely no incentive for me to invest *any* effort into boosting my defense when there are other--and now much better--forms of mitigation available. I'll be halfway there just from the base stats on my generic equipment.

    If 45% is merely a softcap, then you still haven't solved the problem: I will use combat balance (now at 55%); use Angel of Protection (now at 60%); equip a Shadowclad for another 4-32% damage reduction (we'll go at the low end and now we are at 64% damage reduction); pop Iron Warrior for an additional 20% damage reduction (we're up to 84%) and couple that with Bladed Rampart and its 30% damage reduction, no combat advantage damage, and 260Mag damage to enemies--this puts me at 114% damage reduction.

    So what are you going to do? Are you going to rework the defense cap and all of the tank paragons, or will you adhere to what you said from the beginning and let players make a *choice*; let them choose whether or not they want maximum possible damage or have some semblance of survivability?


    And it says tank 33k ilvl 600k HP, with xuna, 80k defense, 60k crit avoid, 57k deflect and 54k awerness ... great LOL.
    That's why I have to build defensive stats (by the way, I have better def stats on DPS than you on the tank) so that when i meet such a pseudo-tank, I can survive :) Well, forgive me, but thank you.


    I wonder in the context what I’m reading, how DPS has at all survive in endgame dungeons when combat advantage damage will be turn on for enemies. Especially that, judging by the reaction of the opinion, the interest in such builds among tanks, unfortunately, exists



    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 239 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Defense and Mitigation Powers are working in an inconsistent manner in the new patch.

    Tested on my GF fighter:

    - Iron Warrior doesn't add to defense at all, so I'm assuming it mitigates "after" defense, in another layer.
    - Bladed Rampart adds 30% to defense and it goes over the 90% max.
    - The Erratic Drift Globe set adds 5% do defense and it goes after the 90% max
    EDIT: this is correct, the description says it should add to defense
    - Phalanx doesn't add to defense at all, maybe same thing as Iron Warrior?

    Can we get some clarification on that? Can defense go over 90% by stats too or just powers?

    IMO:
    - Defense should consider only the Defense stat and be capped at 90%;
    - Additional mitigations should be their own thing instead of increasing defense, just like they do on Live. Even if the end result is the same as increasing Defense directly, it will be more consistent when compared to other things in game, like Power and +% damage are.

    Some different ways to make mitigations their own thing:
    1) damage = [base / (1 + Defense)] * product_of_all_mitigations
    This would be very similar to what we have on live

    2) damage = base / (1 + Defense + sum_of_all_mitigations)
    This would make extra mitigations have the same result as increasing defense, but they would go over the cap while the Defense stat doesn't.

    3) damage = base / [(1+Defense) * (1 + sum_of_mitigations)]
    I think this would make Defense and extra mitigations work in a very similar way to Power and +% Damage. Can someone better at math confirm that?

    EDIT: I see that the tooltips for Power and Defense doesn't list the total as capped anymore. Is the intention here to make all mitigations add to Defense and all +% Damage add to Power, and so the caps were removed? If it is, Iron Warror and Phalanx are bugged.
    Post edited by carloswartune#5709 on
  • rosh#3730 rosh Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    So saying melee and ranged caster won't be understood by some ok fair enough not to to pursue this further .. but I will say my prophecy of this change before this is even pushed to test server

    this literally is like the failure of when elemental evil came out at the beginning all over again and people getting one shotted by mobs while doing content

    Please for players in support of this even Realize and recalculate the fact we are talking about doing this when in test server you got your bolsters at 100% fully geared up with max rank enchants

    Your new players and players in process of getting to end game are screwed doing content with the proposed damage idea

    This is just ridiculous 110% total incoming damage with the armor penetration and from that calculate 0.85 incoming damage multiply that by combat advantage in my case 0.43 good luck ranged dps for real multiply to that if mob does critical Strike


    Literally too much incoming damage for non end gamers to get their daily ad for me personally the alliance I am in would be decimated with such change for real we dont have lots of endgamers but role players and casuals who do content for fun and not to be best of the best

    Today I was helping my alliance we did elol hc for 6 times with failure, can you imagine how they would fare with this change being pushed

    Realize you have 3 types of players there is role players who dont care about being the best and actually invest into cosmetics and casuals and endgamers and all 3 of them need to do content

    This system is for all of content not just your endgame content to get the new shiny items

    I rest my case
    Post edited by rosh#3730 on
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    mushellka said:




    And it says tank 33k ilvl 600k HP, with xuna, 80k defense, 60k crit avoid, 57k deflect and 54k awerness ... great LOL.
    That's why I have to build defensive stats (by the way, I have better def stats on DPS than you on the tank) so that when i meet such a pseudo-tank, I can survive :) Well, forgive me, but thank you.


    I wonder in the context what I’m reading, how DPS has at all survive in endgame dungeons when combat advantage damage will be turn on for enemies. Especially that, judging by the reaction of the opinion, the interest in such builds among tanks, unfortunately, exists



    I'm sure you missed the name of the loadout that says: "DPS Vanguard Xuna".

    Did you happen to inspect the loadout named "Tank Vanguard"? You know, the one with 945K HP, 97K defense, 90.6 Crit Avoid, 89.2 Deflect, and 90.7 Awareness? Those are base stats, no buffs, no pots.

    I'm at the stat caps (including awareness). If you want to call that a "pseudo-tank" and that your DPS has better defensive stats, knock yourself out.

    Edit: You might want to check out my post in this thread at 3:15 when I said:

    (I actually make great use of the in-game debuffs, not for me or my party, but for my companion, who, by its very nature can't cap their stats. Its also a lot of fun when players look at your build, tell you that you are gimped and then get clowned by the tank.)
    Post edited by rubytrue on
  • noworries#8859 noworries Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 640 Cryptic Developer



    Can we get some clarification on that? Can defense go over 90% by stats too or just powers?

    Nothing can go over the 90% value on any stat. Currently power and defense look like they can as they are going through a stat to make certain things work and that stat doesn't yet have the cap applied to it, but when they transfer into the actual power/defense they are capped at the 90%.

    There are other aspects of damage mitigation and damage increases that can stack on top of power and defense.
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 239 Arc User



    Can we get some clarification on that? Can defense go over 90% by stats too or just powers?

    Nothing can go over the 90% value on any stat. Currently power and defense look like they can as they are going through a stat to make certain things work and that stat doesn't yet have the cap applied to it, but when they transfer into the actual power/defense they are capped at the 90%.

    There are other aspects of damage mitigation and damage increases that can stack on top of power and defense.
    Thanks for the clarification! So the current behavior of Bladed Rampart (adding 30% do Defense) is a bug and we can expect it to be changed, right? Because the description says "decrease damage taken".

    I just read the description for Erratic set and it says it adds to defense, so ignore that part of my post.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,220 Arc User

    So saying melee and ranged caster won't be understood by some ok fair enough not to to pursue this further .. but I will say my prophecy of this change before this is even pushed to test server



    this literally is like the failure of when elemental evil came out at the beginning all over again and people getting one shotted by mobs while doing content



    Please for players in support of this even Realize and recalculate the fact we are talking about doing this when in test server you got your bolsters at 100% fully geared up with max rank enchants



    Your new players and players in process of getting to end game are screwed doing content with the proposed damage idea



    This is just ridiculous 110% total incoming damage with the armor penetration and from that calculate 0.85 incoming damage multiply that by combat advantage in my case 0.43 good luck ranged dps for real multiply to that if mob does critical Strike





    Literally too much incoming damage for non end gamers to get their daily ad for me personally the alliance I am in would be decimated with such change for real we dont have lots of endgamers but role players and casuals who do content for fun and not to be best of the best



    Today I was helping my alliance we did elol hc for 6 times with failure, can you imagine how they would fare with this change being pushed



    Realize you have 3 types of players there is role players who dont care about being the best and actually invest into cosmetics and casuals and endgamers and all 3 of them need to do content



    This system is for all of content not just your endgame content to get the new shiny items



    I rest my case

    I just went down the the River Styx in Avernus, the area meant for group. Took off all my gear until the zone started to scale me up to 30k item level. I was able to survive and solo the groups just fine. While not as well as I could with 50k item level, the main difference is just weapon damage and HP. These changes aren't going to affect new players as much as you think they would. It mainly affects just the end game capabilities.
  • madrigal#2900 madrigal Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    [Combat (Self)]Critical Hit! Your Vorpal Weapon deals 871208256 (1306812416) Arcane Damage to Barlgura

    [Combat (Self)]Your Bloodtheft Armor gives 1026097728 (914479168) Hit Points to you

    tell you now....its messed up......no way to test def, when i one shot for 871million dmg and return a heal of 1billion...or is this the new 'normal'?
  • gweddeoran#4924 gweddeoran Member Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    @noworries#8859
    Can we have a summarization of how the stat values work? For example,
    Power = 1.9x Max
    Accuracy = 0.9x Max (Since the factor starts below 1 and is not a buff unlike the other offensive stats)
    Critical Strike + Critical Severity = 1.81x Max
    CA = 1.9x Max (100% Uptime)

    Defense = 1- (1/1.9)x = 0.474x Max
    Deflect + Deflect Severity = 1 - (1/1.81) = 0.4475x Max
    Critical Avoidance = Can reduce critical hits to do up to 0% Additional Damage Max
    Awareness = Can reduce CA hits to do up to 0% Additional Damage Max (I'm not sure what the base CA is)

    Please correct me since from what I can understand, Deflect and Deflect Severity combined give roughly the same returns as just 1 stat, i.e., Defense. In case of Critical Strike and Critical Severity, they combined give only a slightly lower boost than CA. If this is the case, would it not be better to combine Critical Strike and Critical Severity somehow and same for Deflect, otherwise they will be too inefficient for people to invest in when they anyway cannot cap all stats.
  • madrigal#2900 madrigal Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    so after valenhas and this:
    [Combat (Self)]Critical Hit! Your Vorpal Weapon deals 871208256 (1306812416) Arcane Damage to Barlgura
    [Combat (Self)]Your Bloodtheft Armor gives 1026097728 (914479168) Hit Points to you

    thought i would solo cragmire crypts.....
    [Combat (Self)]Critical Hit! Your Vorpal Weapon deals 14233752 (21350628) Arcane Damage to Enforcer
    [Combat (Self)]Critical Hit! Your Vorpal Weapon deals 23172184 (34758276) Arcane Damage to Spitting Spider

    now ...just a wild shot in the dark..but...maybe there is an issue with the vorpal enchant..but bloodtheft is working juuuust fine :) you can leave that as it is..i dont mind

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