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  • tardbathtardbath Member Posts: 80 Arc User
    Can we have a clear answer on this ? Are dungeons meant to be cleared even without a tank, after the combat changes ? Should a group with 4 DPS and 1 HEAL be able to clear FBI or CN? If this is the final goal, a clear answer will save us from wasting time, proposing things that can make tanks needed. All the above can aply to a 4DPS 1 TANK group ofc.

    Cheers
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Suggestion for Stats: Raise max for each Stat to 100%, and allow it to be reached through any combination of stats/bonus

    Possibly have all players & creatures start with a base stat bonus of 0 to 10% in every category, for a fresh level 1. (a paragon/creature base bonus). The accuracy base bonus set at 10% would set the maximum mitigation level for deflect severity at 90%.
    Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
  • douglasopferbeckdouglasopferbeck Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    The solution should be rebuffing vorpal, NOT nerfing bilethorn. Raise the crit chance of vorpal to 8-10% and remove the garbage combat advantage proc after a daily and it should be good.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    The solo content is the minor of the problems. Fighters and Barbarians have a dps path, and paladins have a class feature (Blessed Wanderer) that gives them more dmg when they are not in party. Just increase this % as needed to balance, so they can pick this when they are solo.

    Pally is a minor problem... OK, your opinion. But just to address that: that skill would require to grant 50% increase instead of 5% which is in place atm. Even with possible additional penalty, that is the number it needs to be - but that is the number it will never be.

    However, I did not principally asked for something unreasonable. I asked for possibility of equal value trade. And TBH, that is exactly where companions have the most potential. That is the only place the companions have any meaning.
    Of course, with this rework - which is stuck on an unreasonable system - it is hard to achieve.

    The idea of equal value trade,... well, stats have fleeing value, while anything with % holds its value through time. Indomitable runestones, Warlords inspiration, even the companion damage formula depending on your IL - do not lose their relative contribution with your progress. Stats do. Stats are losing their value quite fast.
    This means, that even if you balance the contribution of augment and combat companion for one specific case, just by having different IL you are leaving the balanced area.
    So, in the end, the only solution is to make combat companion completely useless - so it stays invisible that they get relatively better as your IL increases.

    Still, the ideal case for companion system is that your character can sacrifice something in order to your companion do something of equal value (while more convenient to your momentary needs.) Asking for that is not unreasonable, not even a minor problem. It is the only reason why even touch the companions.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    I'm not sure accuracy/deflect should have been changed. Now accuracy is clearly the worst offensive stat and any dps (ranger) that has accuracy on forte is at a disadvantage. Is there any way to make crit and accuracy kind of "equal" in terms of adding 1% to crit would be the same as 1% to accuracy? Or at least make accuracy less bad.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    the crit/cs/critavoid & the deflect/ds/accuracy is a real problem. I'm working out possible changes that are balanced, but it is really tough. suggestions anyone?
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User

    I'm not sure accuracy/deflect should have been changed. Now accuracy is clearly the worst offensive stat and any dps (ranger) that has accuracy on forte is at a disadvantage. Is there any way to make crit and accuracy kind of "equal" in terms of adding 1% to crit would be the same as 1% to accuracy? Or at least make accuracy less bad.

    How accuracy was changed? And what makes it so bad now?
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    micky1p00 said:

    I'm not sure accuracy/deflect should have been changed. Now accuracy is clearly the worst offensive stat and any dps (ranger) that has accuracy on forte is at a disadvantage. Is there any way to make crit and accuracy kind of "equal" in terms of adding 1% to crit would be the same as 1% to accuracy? Or at least make accuracy less bad.

    How accuracy was changed? And what makes it so bad now?
    what is bad is that 90,000 put into critical avoidance completely negates 180,000 put into critchance & severity.
    and on the flip side, putting 90,000 into accuracy completely negates 180,000 worth of deflect/severity.

    and... IF you run into a situation where they are not negated, they are not giving as much of a boost as the other stats until you reach the cap, at which point they begin to equalize.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    It would be better if 1% of critical avoidance decreased critical chance by a half percent and critical severity by a half point. That would be better, but still not ideal.

    With that mechanic... If you had 90% critical & 90% severity going against a tank with 90% crit avoid, the player would still have 45% crit chance and 45 crit severity left.

    A different possible option is to add 50% base critical severity to every character, so it will always range between 0 and 140. (0 if negated)
    Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    So.. here's another example illustrating the problem:

    Imagine two DPS players in a duel. They have 50,000 IL (end game). Each of them has 40% in every stat because of combined ratings. One of them has invested 50,000 extra stat points into critical chance and into critical severity, bringing them up to 90% each. The other one has put 40,000 extra into critical avoidance, and 40,000 extra into power.

    The crit character has a 90% chance of crit to deal 10% extra damage. Total average modifier is 9% extra damage.
    The power character deals 28.5% extra damage, and has 20,000 stat points left over.

    Because of combined ratings... crit & crit severity are NEVER worth the investment. They are only useable in PvE.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,118 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    micky1p00 said:

    I'm not sure accuracy/deflect should have been changed. Now accuracy is clearly the worst offensive stat and any dps (ranger) that has accuracy on forte is at a disadvantage. Is there any way to make crit and accuracy kind of "equal" in terms of adding 1% to crit would be the same as 1% to accuracy? Or at least make accuracy less bad.

    How accuracy was changed? And what makes it so bad now?
    what is bad is that 90,000 put into critical avoidance completely negates 180,000 put into critchance & severity.
    and on the flip side, putting 90,000 into accuracy completely negates 180,000 worth of deflect/severity.

    and... IF you run into a situation where they are not negated, they are not giving as much of a boost as the other stats until you reach the cap, at which point they begin to equalize.
    The only way to fix that is giving players a fixed amount of critical (and removing it from stats) or fixed amount of critical severity. The first one would be bad, and the second one would be going back to the actual system, having other sources (more rare) to increase that critical severity (like collar or vorpal).

    I think the best option in the actual state of development, could be giving lots of options that occur on critical strike and deflect. There are some usually in equip, but they could be better, or introduce more options in feats / class features. Viable options, with serious effects please.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    micky1p00 said:

    I'm not sure accuracy/deflect should have been changed. Now accuracy is clearly the worst offensive stat and any dps (ranger) that has accuracy on forte is at a disadvantage. Is there any way to make crit and accuracy kind of "equal" in terms of adding 1% to crit would be the same as 1% to accuracy? Or at least make accuracy less bad.

    How accuracy was changed? And what makes it so bad now?
    what is bad is that 90,000 put into critical avoidance completely negates 180,000 put into critchance & severity.
    and on the flip side, putting 90,000 into accuracy completely negates 180,000 worth of deflect/severity.

    and... IF you run into a situation where they are not negated, they are not giving as much of a boost as the other stats until you reach the cap, at which point they begin to equalize.
    And still how that makes Accuracy bad? Your point not only doesn't answer my question, it shows that accuracy negates 2 stats, which, albeit circumstantially, makes it good...
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    micky1p00 said:

    I'm not sure accuracy/deflect should have been changed. Now accuracy is clearly the worst offensive stat and any dps (ranger) that has accuracy on forte is at a disadvantage. Is there any way to make crit and accuracy kind of "equal" in terms of adding 1% to crit would be the same as 1% to accuracy? Or at least make accuracy less bad.

    How accuracy was changed? And what makes it so bad now?
    what is bad is that 90,000 put into critical avoidance completely negates 180,000 put into critchance & severity.
    and on the flip side, putting 90,000 into accuracy completely negates 180,000 worth of deflect/severity.

    and... IF you run into a situation where they are not negated, they are not giving as much of a boost as the other stats until you reach the cap, at which point they begin to equalize.
    And still how that makes Accuracy bad? Your point not only doesn't answer my question, it shows that accuracy negates 2 stats, which, albeit circumstantially, makes it good...
    The accuracy problem is different because. 90% deflection at 90% deflect severity means only 19% of damage is getting through. At this top end.. deflection is possibly overpowered. On the low end... 1% x 1% deflection is mitigates 1 ten-thousandths of damage received. Now, we need to consider combined ratings, because this will bring all stats up to 40,000 by end game. With 40% accuracy given to characters, the maximum mitigation of deflection is .50 x 50 = 25%. Now deflection turns into a black hole for placing extra stats into it, cause they are easily and cheaply countered.

    We could certainly live with deflection how it is, but it might be better to have each percent of accuracy reduce chance of deflection by half a percent and deflection severity by half a percent. This way provides for a softer cancelling of deflection by accuracy.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Again, my original quote and post was to someone who claims that Accuracy was changed, and now is the worst offensive stat for dps. In that reply, I've asked what was the change and what makes it bad, aka the worst offensive stat for dps.

    What they mean, I assume, was not the accuracy change, but the mitigation, it just didn't click to me when I first read it, and I thought that there is something else I've missed with all the posts.

    To your posts, with 90% deflection at 90% severity the mitigation is about 45% mitigation or 55% damage, and not 19% damage going through. Still not sure what is the relevance of the rest of the calculation since you don't actually show accuracy gain in damage.
    Also critters deflect chance is 50% and severity is 90%. Those are constants.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    --- Accumulated summary of how I would alter the current MOD ---

    1 - Increase all stat caps to 100%. Remove any limitations on what can come from stats and what can come from bonuses.

    2 - Soften Critical Avoidance and Accuracy. Have each percent of these reduce each corresponding pair of stats by half a percent each. Example: 100% Accuracy reduces Deflection by 50% and reduces Deflect Severity by 50%. 40% Critical Avoidance would reduce Critical Chance by 20% and reduce Critical Severity by 20%.

    3 - Set unmodified companion DPS amount to equal character IL weapon damage amount. Reduce r15 Indomitable Runestone from 40% to 30%. Reduce Warlords Insignia Bonus from 20% to 10%. Fully modified, with Runestones, Warlords bonuses, and Liira's Bell, a companion DPS would multiply by four. Setting companion base damage to character IL weapon damage creates a great benchmark, and happens to put it right into the 5 to 7 percent range of actual player delivered damage.

    4 - Give each Augment an attribute that it boosts by +1

    5 - Accuracy should have a companion that boosts it by 7.5%

    6 - Class Role Bonuses that Support Playstyles more distinctly:

    Tank
    +10% Health
    +10% Incoming Healing
    +10% Combat Advantage
    +10% Awareness

    Healer
    +10% Control
    +10% Control Resist
    +10% Power
    +10% Critical Chance

    DPS
    +20% damage versus targets that are not targeting them


    7 - Forte - Reduce Primary Forte stat from 50% to 25%. Allow each player to allocate/select one stat to receive 25% of their Forte.

    Paragon | 25% Stat 1 | 25% Stat 2 | 25% Stat 3 | 25% Stat 4 choice
    Assassin | Power | Combat Advantage | Deflect Severity | Any Stat
    Whisperknife | Power | Combat Advantage | Deflect Severity | Any Stat
    Arcanist | Power | Combat Advantage | Critical Avoidance | Any Stat
    Thaumaturge | Power | Combat Advantage | Critical Avoidance | Any Stat
    Hunter | Power | Accuracy | Deflect | Any Stat
    Warden | Power | Accuracy | Deflect | Any Stat
    Hellbringer | Power | Critical Strike | Awareness | Any Stat
    SoulWeaver | Regen | Critical Strike | Awareness | Any Stat
    Devout | Divinity Regen | Critical Severity | Deflect | Any Stat
    Arbiter | Power | Critical Severity | Deflect | Any Stat
    Justicar | Defense | Critical Strike | Deflect Severity | Any Stat
    Oathkeeper | Divnity Regen | Critical Strike | Deflect Severity | Any Stat
    Blademaster | Power | Critical Sev | Awareness | Any Stat
    Sentinel | Defense | Critical Sev | Awareness | Any Stat
    Dreadnought | Power | Accuracy | Critical Avoidance | Any Stat
    Vanguard | Defense | Accuracy | Critical Avoidance | Any Stat

    (credit and thanks to ALQUImist for creation of the graphic above)
    Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
  • khaozhunterkhaozhunter Member Posts: 63 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    Again, my original quote and post was to someone who claims that Accuracy was changed, and now is the worst offensive stat for dps. In that reply, I've asked what was the change and what makes it bad, aka the worst offensive stat for dps.

    What they mean, I assume, was not the accuracy change, but the mitigation, it just didn't click to me when I first read it, and I thought that there is something else I've missed with all the posts.

    To your posts, with 90% deflection at 90% severity the mitigation is about 45% mitigation or 55% damage, and not 19% damage going through. Still not sure what is the relevance of the rest of the calculation since you don't actually show accuracy gain in damage.
    Also critters deflect chance is 50% and severity is 90%. Those are constants.

    it is easy, the maximum damage resistance that deflection and defense reaches is now 47,4% (52,6 effectiveness), before the patch they reached 90% damage resistance, then adding 1% of accuracy before the change increased your damage more than now.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User

    micky1p00 said:

    Again, my original quote and post was to someone who claims that Accuracy was changed, and now is the worst offensive stat for dps. In that reply, I've asked what was the change and what makes it bad, aka the worst offensive stat for dps.

    What they mean, I assume, was not the accuracy change, but the mitigation, it just didn't click to me when I first read it, and I thought that there is something else I've missed with all the posts.

    To your posts, with 90% deflection at 90% severity the mitigation is about 45% mitigation or 55% damage, and not 19% damage going through. Still not sure what is the relevance of the rest of the calculation since you don't actually show accuracy gain in damage.
    Also critters deflect chance is 50% and severity is 90%. Those are constants.

    it is easy, the maximum damage resistance that deflection and defense reaches is now 47,4% (52,6 effectiveness), before the patch they reached 90% damage resistance, then adding 1% of accuracy before the change increased your damage more than now.
    Yeah, thanks, that's what Jman posted about, which I guessed right after posting, but Zimxero still talks about 19% and something else. But nvm, all ok.
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Voicing my opinion on support roles, as I think they would add value to the game.

    I think two different paths can be taken in the combat maths to support support roles. One is to make it difficult to cap more than one or two primary stats for a specific role (an offensive stat for dps/heals, defensive stat for tank) that way there is always a need for buffs due to a limited stat pool. Another is to have a separate variable for buffs that would allow a stat to go over 90% were it make sense, in this way buffs are always needed as there is no other way to go over the cap.

    If supportive roles were going to be an "official" role, they could fill a slot in queue requirements, 1 tank, 1 heals, 2/3 dps and 0/1 support. Were a support role would be optional.

    I think there could be different "flavors" of support role:
    - Offensive stat buffers
    - Debuffers Offensive/Defensive varieties
    - Defensive stat buffers
    - Hybrids and some with limited healing or maybe even be sub tanks in a pinch

    There were several builds that fell into these flavors pre-m16, except they all fell into "dps" role, which is ok too I suppose, but a bit incomplete imnsho.

    Each of these mechanical flavors could be further enhanced with thematic personality in the paragon path, feats, and animations.

    The reason why I am writing this here, is that if we ever do get support roles back in the game, we need to start thinking about how they fit into the base maths now, while that's being worked out. I think we should have support roles because they add value to the game. For example, a support role could be used to help parties/groups complete content they otherwise couldn't, they can also lead to more diverse meta-group composition in end game content (increasing the number of viable BiS items, and spreading value of those items across the board, i.e. one specific item will be less likely to become exorbitantly expensive).

  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,269 Arc User



    Maybe should start a new thread and post videos as people upload showing each dungeon solo'ed by a dps.

    When is that trying to show? As the health bars aren't right for what is on preview, those are the old style health bars.
    Part of a conversation saying that tanks aren't needed for all content on live, in this case dps solo runs. Counter point is that the content is very old.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,360 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    People saying that they cap power easily do they at 51k item level without the t3 hunt gear or the lionguard gear>?
    CAN we have on gear choices like: if i want stat to increase to increase stat if i want % to increase to increase % thanks
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    edited December 2020


    People saying that they cap power easily do they at 51k item level without the t3 hunt gear or the lionguard gear>?
    CAN we have on gear choices like: if i want stat to increase to increase stat if i want % to increase to increase % thanks

    At least when I say power is capped too easily, its in combat. Devils ribcage + blessed divine/lionguard arms + T3 5k power shirt are enough to WAY overcap power.
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,360 Arc User


    People saying that they cap power easily do they at 51k item level without the t3 hunt gear or the lionguard gear>?
    CAN we have on gear choices like: if i want stat to increase to increase stat if i want % to increase to increase % thanks

    At least when I say power is capped too easily, its in combat. Devils ribcage + blessed divine/lionguard arms + T3 5k power shirt are enough to WAY overcap power.
    yes but if they change those bonuses where we will find power for the stat? if they change all of them.
  • hastati96hastati96 Member Posts: 466 Arc User


    People saying that they cap power easily do they at 51k item level without the t3 hunt gear or the lionguard gear>?
    CAN we have on gear choices like: if i want stat to increase to increase stat if i want % to increase to increase % thanks

    At least when I say power is capped too easily, its in combat. Devils ribcage + blessed divine/lionguard arms + T3 5k power shirt are enough to WAY overcap power.
    yes but if they change those bonuses where we will find power for the stat? if they change all of them.
    We still don't know how the reworked bonuses will be so we can only wait for now. Maybe it won't be possible to cap power by stat, we don't know. Not being able to cap it would at least give some space for improvement in future mods.
    Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,118 Arc User
    It would be ironic if we are short of power now hahaha.

    Everyone asking to remove power from everything, but I still will use all the dominance insignias and empowered runestones
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
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