Ouch. Kind of how I feel about mod 12. Been so busy grinding T2 for AD that I barely have time for chult dailes. I unlock only the first campaign task on my four toons. With random queue, I will probably have more time for chult dailies as I wait out the leavers penalty.
But a consequence you may not have considered is the one raised a few pages ago: Players will now be able to unlock the epic dungeons twice as fast, but their ability (read 'time' w.r.t. the daily caps) to earn the AD needed to get the RP to have the right EQ for epic dungeons has not been increased to match. This will only increase the number of undergeared alts in the RQ.
To be clear, yes, they'll get their drowcraft/dragonflight/pioneer gear faster, but that's such a minuscule part of effectiveness when compared to high-level enchants (which require RP hence AD), weapon enhancements (c.wards, hence more AD), armor enhancements (c.wards, hence more AD) reinforcement kits (100k AD each if you make them yourself, more on AH, each time you change a piece of armor), high-level runes (e.g., bondings or eldritch...which will need more p.wards, hence AD), not to mention trying to refine artifacts to Mythic (RP hence AD) or taking artifact EQ to legendary (even more RP, hence more AD).
Yes, they will get to boons faster, which is an important piece of effectiveness, but it also seems that you've decided to make boons have campaign-specific bonuses in later modules...e.g., increased damage against hunts...so there's a limit to the benefit.
People will need so much AD they will _have_ to RQ with their alts, or they may as well abandon them like the rest of us mostly have.
In my opinion the double DC meta is not a consequence of something being mechanically wrong with the DC class, or the other classes that might replace one of the two, its a common belief, hearsay and rumor and exaggeration.
And the dungeon design of tomb of the nine gods, and lack of knowlage of a certain detail: the one DC must be an anoited champion, and he/she must spam AA at Withers and Ras Nsi, otherwise partial paralysys kicks in, and ppl get roasted, unable to step out of the jets of fire, and/or replenish their own and fellow party members hp by lifesteal, pots or heals, fail to end the defiant souls tortured unlife in time or spiral twitching into a bottomless pit. Both fights are just too unforgiving, that control effect needs to be negated completely, or its a fail no matter the quality of the rest of the team.
I was once stuck at withers with a weak group, before I figured out the AA/paralysys thing, one DC iirc, so after a few wipes we tried to actually play the mechanic and send two Dps up there to kill his assistent tomb dwarfs, hoping for a slower, but safer victory(iirc the original design of that fight allowed that, never been to preview, but read the forums)...it wasn´t possible, but lead to even faster fails...(thanks to thouse atrocious whiners claiming that original design was too easy/boring, and the devs who listened to them).
Also the thing that makes a "one main dps, 4 buffers group" so much faster, safer and more popular than group compositions with more damage dealers is the fact, that at the avatar of orcus(the dungeons first great dps check wall), only one damage dealer can get the advantage of the damage enhancing curse. Back when FBI was new, ppl also used to play it safe by running that one main dps, 4 supports group composition too(more defensive buffs), but then, when ppl got stronger and better figured the dungeon out, it loosened up, allowing for more variety in group composition. Because of the above, for t9g it will take much longer until that happens.
Common belief seems to be it takes more than 30 minutes longer to beat that dungeon with only one DC than with two. I know from experiance the difference is less than 10 minutes, probably even smaller...its hard to find ppl willing to risk running another composition than the one believed superior...and I´m usually too lazy, and have too small a network to be the one forming the party anyway xD.
I´d like a few more experiance reports on this: how long did your fastest 2 DC group take to beat t9g? How long did your fastest 1 Dc group take? Were you ever in a group that has beaten that dungeon without a DC, and if so, how long did that take?
Maybe that way we can prove to @asterdahl that the real difference is not big enough to swing the nerf bat xD.
In my opinion the double DC meta is not a consequence of something being mechanically wrong with the DC class, or the other classes that might replace one of the two, its a common belief, hearsay and rumor and exaggeration.
And the dungeon design of tomb of the nine gods, and lack of knowlage of a certain detail: the one DC must be an anoited champion, and he/she must spam AA at Withers and Ras Nsi, otherwise partial paralysys kicks in, and ppl get roasted, unable to step out of the jets of fire, and/or replenish their own and fellow party members hp by lifesteal, pots or heals, fail to end the defiant souls tortured unlife in time or spiral twitching into a bottomless pit. Both fights are just too unforgiving, that control effect needs to be negated completely, or its a fail no matter the quality of the rest of the team.
I was once stuck at withers with a weak group, before I figured out the AA/paralysys thing, one DC iirc, so after a few wipes we tried to actually play the mechanic and send two Dps up there to kill his assistent tomb dwarfs, hoping for a slower, but safer victory(iirc the original design of that fight allowed that, never been to preview, but read the forums)...it wasn´t possible, but lead to even faster fails...(thanks to thouse atrocious whiners claiming that original design was too easy/boring, and the devs who listened to them).
Also the thing that makes a "one main dps, 4 buffers group" so much faster, safer and more popular than group compositions with more damage dealers is the fact, that at the avatar of orcus(the dungeons first great dps check wall), only one damage dealer can get the advantage of the damage enhancing curse. Back when FBI was new, ppl also used to play it safe by running that one main dps, 4 supports group composition too(more defensive buffs), but then, when ppl got stronger and better figured the dungeon out, it loosened up, allowing for more variety in group composition. Because of the above, for t9g it will take much longer until that happens.
Common belief seems to be it takes more than 30 minutes longer to beat that dungeon with only one DC than with two. I know from experiance the difference is less than 10 minutes, probably even smaller...its hard to find ppl willing to risk running another composition than the one believed superior...and I´m usually too lazy, and have too small a network to be the one forming the party anyway xD.
I´d like a few more experiance reports on this: how long did your fastest 2 DC group take to beat t9g? How long did your fastest 1 Dc group take? Were you ever in a group that has beaten that dungeon without a DC, and if so, how long did that take?
Maybe that way we can prove to @asterdahl that the real difference is not big enough to swing the nerf bat xD.
My two cents on this would be as follows :
Did i do TONG with just one DC ? -----> Yes. I was the DC. Did i finish it in a timely fashion ? -----> Yes, our last run lasted for an hour. But we shifted through the party , since people had to go do real life stuff.
Does 2 DC's work all the time ? ----- > No. In my experience, even groups with 2 DCs fail sometimes.
How long did it take to do TONG with 2 DC's in party ----> Ranging from 30 minutes to 2 hours run, at the beginning , my first run lasted 5 and a half hours. Until we figured it all out.
Fastest run with 2 DCs -----> 35 min ? I think .... >.< Fastest run with 1 DC -----> 45 min ? My guild likes to take its sweet time. We do all the puzzles as well.
Unfortunately i never did it without a DC , mainly cos i abandoned my alts and i just play my main who is a DC.
I did TONG with one DC several times. Times ranges from 2 hours to 35 mins but avg 45-50min. It heavinly depended on rest of the team obviously and I'm not BiS either. People not realizing the mechanics might add several minutes easily. I find DC DO works the best in between and AC for mentioned bosses to counter CC (but I also did it whole only on dc do too). Two DC's don't work all the time. You can't buff dead or bring near 0 dps to milions . Best Two DC's time: around 25 minutes. Avg around 35-40 min.
I've never done it on diffrent class than DC since I was forced to abandon my other alts due to time constrains.
I don't think there is issue with two DCs..let people run with what they want. But dps classes damage output just seems too low without any buffs compared to end game content. That or increase rewards enough so 2 hours runs should be profitable :P. And there is also problem that even if you're able to survive attacks you will fail the content without enough dps since a lot of mechanics resolve around killing stuff before it debuffs you to the ground, temp hp runs out etc. Content should be able to be done even with low dps (just slower..).
"Content should be able to be done even with low dps (just slower..). "
Could not agree with this more - but that the thing with this game there is a lot of content that is just not playable for the average person playing the game, and all of these changes that are being made will just add to this
"Content should be able to be done even with low dps (just slower..).
I had a really long and really unnecessary response, but decided to try and be shorter and more specific instead.
DPS-races are the exception rather than the rule, but are a mechanic that has existed in every MMO since EQ1, with Enrage Timers and stacking buffs/debuffs. The clearest example in NW is FBI Dragon Turtle Slams -- but most content *can* be done with low dps (just slower...).
It's just that...we're in a weird state where the damage output of a given party is ludicrously variable depending on its composition, but also where the damage output of any given toon is ludicrously variable depending on their build and skill level.
And dungeons like FBI that are "too easy / can be speedrun" with a flawless meta high skilled- GF+OP+DC+DC+GWF/HR party in <10 mins can take an hour with perfectly acceptably-skilled OP+DC+SW+TR+CW.
I've been in runs that killed Drufi in <30s, and in runs that took >10 mins to kill her. Neither one of those durations is at all compelling for a boss fight.
There's a sweet spot in there somewhere, probably in the ~25-45 minute per dungeon range and in the 2-5 minute per boss range, where the content is hard enough to feel rewarding for completing it and to feel compelling, without being sped through and not caring about the story, and without feeling like you're bashing your head against a brick wall making infinitesimal progress despite critting for >1M damage with KF every 7s.
The single largest issue for Cryptic to solve with this game right now is the extreme imbalance between the damage output of a given class at its skill floor versus the damage output of that same class at its skill ceiling. Even moreso than bringing party buffing under control.
Random queues will require 1 tank, 3 dps and 1 heal. People will obviously want heal to be cleric, because buffs. DPS can be a variety of different things. As for tank, however, the way it stands now, OP is much better tank and buffs way better too. Once people can't take both GF and OP for the endgame content, people will go for OP only. Further down the road, damage of the GF will be nerfed, taking away the slight advantage GF has over OP. There will be no reason for any party to pick GF in their random queues at all, if they want to maximise their chances of succeeding at random queue T9G.
The clearest example in NW is FBI Dragon Turtle Slams -- but most content *can* be done with low dps (just slower...).
This is wrong FYI. Turtle slams are triggered by people standing too close to the turtle. If dps runs away when turtle does the close range breath attack instead of going near turtle, turtle doesn't do any slams.
I have done the turtle as a GF+DC, and didn't use bondings, the turtle had 0 slams.
@cilginordek Welcome to the plight of Healadin. I'm being tongue-in-cheek but I agree with you. I feel this change is just an attempt to fudge the metrics, and will make pre-mades teams even more particular about what flavor they take with them for random queues. Given the number of pages tied to this topic, I hope the devs (to include leadership) realize that RQs might not get the warm reception they are expecting.
This is absolutely ridiculous. I don't have an hour to run FBI with random people, especially with the chance that it will be their first run.
ETA - I'm taking about weekdays after work. I'll gladly help out anyone when I have time on the weekend.
I spend way too much money on this game to have dungeons that I have no desire or need to run (mostly because of rewards/time ratio, but also because anything related to SKT is totally pointless now) forced on me to get AD.
I'll just drop out of the dungeon (which is terrible for everyone else involved), you'll penalize me and at some point I'll get sick of sitting around and spend my money somewhere else.
In my opinion the double DC meta is not a consequence of something being mechanically wrong with the DC class, or the other classes that might replace one of the two, its a common belief, hearsay and rumor and exaggeration.
And the dungeon design of tomb of the nine gods, and lack of knowlage of a certain detail: the one DC must be an anoited champion, and he/she must spam AA at Withers and Ras Nsi, otherwise partial paralysys kicks in, and ppl get roasted, unable to step out of the jets of fire, and/or replenish their own and fellow party members hp by lifesteal, pots or heals, fail to end the defiant souls tortured unlife in time or spiral twitching into a bottomless pit. Both fights are just too unforgiving, that control effect needs to be negated completely, or its a fail no matter the quality of the rest of the team.
I was once stuck at withers with a weak group, before I figured out the AA/paralysys thing, one DC iirc, so after a few wipes we tried to actually play the mechanic and send two Dps up there to kill his assistent tomb dwarfs, hoping for a slower, but safer victory(iirc the original design of that fight allowed that, never been to preview, but read the forums)...it wasn´t possible, but lead to even faster fails...(thanks to thouse atrocious whiners claiming that original design was too easy/boring, and the devs who listened to them).
Also the thing that makes a "one main dps, 4 buffers group" so much faster, safer and more popular than group compositions with more damage dealers is the fact, that at the avatar of orcus(the dungeons first great dps check wall), only one damage dealer can get the advantage of the damage enhancing curse. Back when FBI was new, ppl also used to play it safe by running that one main dps, 4 supports group composition too(more defensive buffs), but then, when ppl got stronger and better figured the dungeon out, it loosened up, allowing for more variety in group composition. Because of the above, for t9g it will take much longer until that happens.
Common belief seems to be it takes more than 30 minutes longer to beat that dungeon with only one DC than with two. I know from experiance the difference is less than 10 minutes, probably even smaller...its hard to find ppl willing to risk running another composition than the one believed superior...and I´m usually too lazy, and have too small a network to be the one forming the party anyway xD.
I´d like a few more experiance reports on this: how long did your fastest 2 DC group take to beat t9g? How long did your fastest 1 Dc group take? Were you ever in a group that has beaten that dungeon without a DC, and if so, how long did that take?
Maybe that way we can prove to @asterdahl that the real difference is not big enough to swing the nerf bat xD.
My fastest ToNG run so far has been with 1 GF, 2 DC, 1 GWF and myself HR we did it in 21:38 min. The clerics for that run was sharpedge and michela, 2 of the best players in the game. I have had multiple 25-30 min runs with all possible combinations and Ilvls. From my personal experience the best setup for my HR is to run 1 OP, 2 DC and 1 Templock. Everything melts and you can ignore all the mechanics and burn it all to the ground.
"The Sweet Ain't As Sweet Without The Sour!"
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
Yes. Yes, we are. Because if you need to run specific content for shards in addition to random content for AD, that's not remotely respectful of players with limited time, now is it?
Exactly this. People who enjoy the game and would like to progress (with multiple alts, even) are trying to balance their enjoyment with grind for progression with limited gaming time. I hate that I sign off and couldn't even run a dungeon because of the dailies needed.
I believe that after 34 pages when basically every single player told the devs that this is a terrible idea and they gave detailed explanation about why this idea is just going to make everything a lot worse, if the devs actually implement this system it will show the players how much devs care about their opinions.
If this thing goes lives it means pure and simple that there is not point at all to have a preview server, considering that devs have not a single intention to listen to the players. Its like reviving the times before mod6.
This is why I have tentatively retired most of my alts and am winding down my game play in preparation. As someone who loves playing on different characters and being able to swap out depending on the needs of my group, this decision was gutting. Lockboxes are useless. I save keys til someone gripes at me and then I get a bunch of profession packs or green marks. Been playing since the beginning with 11 characters. Never saw a Legendary drop, never saw the belt or gloves from Demi, didn't even know what a TB jackpot was for over a year. My AD has always been foot to the grind. I don't mind it. I just want to enjoy my time in the dungeons I choose.
It feels as if they don't want those who enjoy the game and are happy being a part of it. It's really gearing towards the BiS focused who are happy to slap down cash over time, hence focusing on what makes the grind longer VS fixing game glitches, etc....
The more I go over this change in my head the dumber it is.
What are you trying to accomplish with the change? 2 DC parties? Some dungeons not being run?
If it's 2 DC parties then just have the normal Qs give the bonus AD. If it's some dungeons not being run then give us a reason to run them. Simple solutions to whatever problems you think are in the game rather than creating new problems.
Why are some dungeons not run?Time/reward is your answer. Fix the loot tables to reward the time put in to a dungeon and people will run them. It's not hard.
Newer players can't run Malabog, Valindra or ETOS now without opening up FBI? Seriously? How are they ever supposed to catch up?
This is a game killing change, believe it or not. It not only pisses off your current player base, but puts up an enormous wall to any new players... An absolutely terrible combination.
I'm sorry you wasted the time, resources and money developing this feature, but it's an absolutely horrendous idea and needs to be thrown in the trash.
Stop over-complicating things and just give players a reason to run current content. It's really simple.
This whole thing reminds me of another MMO (the big one, from Blizzard, you know which one) that very recently had a problem with people always running the same dungeon over and over because of the reward/time ratio. Their solution? Use that dungeon as a template and make other dungeon rewards proportional to the time invested. Fixed. Now people run all of them. Cryptic solution? "F*** you man! These dungeons not worth it you scrub? Now you gotta run them to get anything!"
Fine, once this comes through.. I will do RQs, fine. But if I ever get for example FBI.. I'll just leave. I don't care about deserter penalty. I'd rather go watch tv or do something else during whatever time that penalty lasts than waste my time for nothing. I will never ever pug FBI through the auto queue. And I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking this.
I would think most wouldn't mind the Templock being classed as a DPS. This would allow a DC and a Templock to be in the same private group for running Random Queues. Effectively having a 2 healer group even though the system wouldn't see it. I personally would have the Templock healing and the DC buffing/debuffing.
I would think most wouldn't mind the Templock being classed as a DPS. This would allow a DC and a Templock to be in the same private group for running Random Queues. Effectively having a 2 healer group even though the system wouldn't see it. I personally would have the Templock healing and the DC buffing/debuffing.
Loadouts really should help, at least insofar as (a.) no-one has any reason to build them both out for the same role; and (b.) people coordinate at the beginning of the dungeon. My CW is either SS thaum/opp pure dps, or MoF ren pure support. I'm perfectly content to contribute 2.5x damage to the 15k GWF in the party, given that I draw one in RQ
You will immediately know what kind of RQ you drew by whether it starts as a conversation to find the strongest <2x buff/debuff, heal, tank, gwf dps> roles, or whether some dumb-HAMSTER goes running right in. I suppose that is assuming you drew a challenging dungeon. On the other hand, it's not like there's a shortage of non-dungeon things to grind while waiting out the penalty --- between SH coffer, SKT EQ, RiverDistrict boons that I never bothered with, or the endless Chult lure farming.
Who knows, I might farm enough campaign currencies from the other zones in that time to actually have the keys for the dungeons I randomly draw
This sounds like an interesting idea, but I think it should be something to do alongside the current system rather than just replacing it completely.
Also, I think it fails to address some of the key issues with levelling dungeons and skirmishes. Mainly, that leveling dungeons are so easy, that one player literally Zerg-rushes through it all at FULL SPRINT (max movement bonus and/or the Warlock / GWF Sprint) one-shotting everything giving nobody else any time to do anything besides just struggle to keep up at the paltry low level run bonus, not even having enough to loot, much less fight.
This is especially bad in Cloak Tower, and also pretty bad in the Bandit Crypt that comes up next. It's to the point where I wish there was a no-reward (or low-reward) SOLO version of those dungeons so I could go in them with alts and experience the full immersion and storyline they were intended to provide. I've never completed the plant/crystal on the Altar "recipe" quest in Cloak Tower EVEN ONCE!
Also, leveling Skirmishes (with the unreasonably tight level bounds) NEVER pop. They just don't after the first two, and even the second usually doesn't. There needs to be a fix for this. Random queues don't sound like it, because they don't guarantee that you'll get in the skirmish you want, and with XP being so generous nowadays, you outlevel Skirmishes you may want to try FAST.
Even with random queues, I'd like to see Skirmishes dropped to 3 people max, and have their level ranges either upped, or eliminated completely so you can get into them at higher levels to experience the story.
Lastly, the "leaver" or "quitter" penalty or whatnot seems nice in theory, but what if you're in a group with AFK or disconnected people who literally can't even move or have griefers or trolls who are intentionally ruining the experience for you? Or botters or leechers who aren't contributing and making you do all the work? There has to be a way to account for this, and even just voting to "surrender / give up" won't necessarily work if the people trolling / botting refuse to vote or vote against you. At the bare minimum, it should only require 2/3 or 3/5 votes to choose to "give up" and there should be a robust vote kick system that can't easily be abused by groups of trolls to kick totally innocent people constantly.
Don't get me wrong, implemented correctly, Random queues sound like they would be a good thing, but the way it's described now, it feels full of holes, and something that shouldn't replace what we have now, but supplement it. It also feels like it doesn't solve enough problems, particularly with lower level content like first time run throughs of Cloak Tower. A new player "bonus" won't stop people from zerging through it, acting like the rest of the party doesn't exist, and making it literally impossible for new players to enjoy the experience the way it was intended.
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
Random queues will kill this game,
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
edited September 2017
Maybe I still did not understand the dev's plan for the random queues. Is it true that both, random leveling queue and random epic queue, give the same AD rewards? Is it true that both, random epic queue and private epic queue, give the same seal and salvage rewards?
If the answer is "yes" to both questions then we players have all means to show the devs in-game that we do not want random epic queues as they are planed: run a random leveling queue for ADs once, then run as many epic private queues as you like for seals and salvage. Do NOT run random epic queues. Problem solved.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
It's to the point where I wish there was a no-reward (or low-reward) SOLO version of those dungeons so I could go in them with alts and experience the full immersion and storyline they were intended to provide. I've never completed the plant/crystal on the Altar "recipe" quest in Cloak Tower EVEN ONCE!
You can enter them solo now. Simply select to queue privately. The only change that will happen with random queues is this will no longer grant any AD bonus, whereas it currently does.
You can also entering levelling skirmishes solo/in undersized group, provided you are within the level range and feel confident you'll be able to complete the fights.
Maybe I still did not understand the dev's plan for the random queues. Is it true that both, random leveling queue and random epic queue, give the same AD rewards? Is it true that both, random epic queue and private epic queue, give the same seal and salvage rewards?
If the answer is "yes" to both questions then we players have all means to show the devs in-game that we do not want random epic queues as they are planed: run a random leveling queue for ADs once, then run as many epic private queues as you like for seals and salvage. Do NOT run random epic queues. Problem solved.
Unfortunately, the people this affects the most can't run Epic Random Queues anyway because its gated at 11K and unlocked FBI MSP. That;s thye problem. In order to fill FBI/MSP they are barred from ERQ. So their absence from Random Queues won't be noted as a protest but as the actual desired result of this stupid system.
The other problem is that many of us genuinely don't want to run leveling dungeons, because we've leveled to the point where the epic dungeons are open. It's how you play these games... play to unlock the next content, play that content to unlock the next. The new NW model is play to unlock the next content... then go back and grind that stuff you can now walk through with your eyes closed and one arm tied behind your back, before you are allowed to get the reward for playing the content you just unlocked.
I have three characters who will qualify for Random Queues on the basis that one of them has unlocked the material required, and the other two scrape the 11K entry requirement.
The best way to show them how dumb it is is probably to play RQ with your sub par 11K alts. So when FBI and MSP see a success rate of less than 5% due to undergeared players, people leaving in droves, and getting booted asap... maybe someone upstairs will take note? When the complaints start pouring in, then they might take notice.
I'm in a position, and I'm probably not alone, where I have three options.
* Continue to progress at my current rate by playing game material I dislike * Play content I like without the progression * Go play a different game where I can do both.
None of which are even remotely "optimal".
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
Maybe I still did not understand the dev's plan for the random queues. Is it true that both, random leveling queue and random epic queue, give the same AD rewards? Is it true that both, random epic queue and private epic queue, give the same seal and salvage rewards?
If the answer is "yes" to both questions then we players have all means to show the devs in-game that we do not want random epic queues as they are planed: run a random leveling queue for ADs once, then run as many epic private queues as you like for seals and salvage. Do NOT run random epic queues. Problem solved.
Unfortunately, the people this affects the most can't run Epic Random Queues anyway because its gated at 11K and unlocked FBI MSP. That;s thye problem. In order to fill FBI/MSP they are barred from ERQ. So their absence from Random Queues won't be noted as a protest but as the actual desired result of this stupid system.
The other problem is that many of us genuinely don't want to run leveling dungeons, because we've leveled to the point where the epic dungeons are open. It's how you play these games... play to unlock the next content, play that content to unlock the next. The new NW model is play to unlock the next content... then go back and grind that stuff you can now walk through with your eyes closed and one arm tied behind your back, before you are allowed to get the reward for playing the content you just unlocked.
I have three characters who will qualify for Random Queues on the basis that one of them has unlocked the material required, and the other two scrape the 11K entry requirement.
The best way to show them how dumb it is is probably to play RQ with your sub par 11K alts. So when FBI and MSP see a success rate of less than 5% due to undergeared players, people leaving in droves, and getting booted asap... maybe someone upstairs will take note? When the complaints start pouring in, then they might take notice.
I'm in a position, and I'm probably not alone, where I have three options.
* Continue to progress at my current rate by playing game material I dislike * Play content I like without the progression * Go play a different game where I can do both.
None of which are even remotely "optimal".
You are not wrong, not at all. But what I was suggesting was simply a temporary change of your(our) playing style. Just as long as the devs notice that noone runs random epic queues. Although I see two drawbacks myself with this solution:
1. It will not happen. People will complain and adept. And play random epic queues. No matter how much they dislike it. This has happened and will happen again.
2. Even if 1. does not happen and random epic queues are getting more and more dusty every day due to not being touched, I am afraid - and I say this from my experience from the last four years in this game - that the devs won't increase the incentive for the random epic queues, but rather nerf the rewards for the other queues.
Still, I would try it. Running a single random leveling queue, albeit boring, does not take too much time and may be the price we have to pay for showing them what we do not want.
I shared the following on another article and figured I would put it here too to share my opinion on this subject:
I love carrying smaller players so this looks like a fun idea to me. As for ad generation I do believe you still get seals if you don’t queue for the dungeons under random queue scenario so you still have that option it will maybe just take you a bit longer. This looks like a win-win. They had to do something for mid and entry level players since all content the last year was just aimed at end game. I take it their theory was as we get stronger the endgame content will become appropriate for mid level. The problem with that is it is just not worth running old end game content for a midlevel player. take FBI. you get a peridot for that run the vornin blood and gear drops are now useless … meaning the dungeon is useless for mid game and yet again no content for mid gamers. I am a mid level player (my mains are between 13k and 14k) so I am looking at this from our point of view. we got 2 campaigns this year 1 had a 1 mission a day content and the other 1 day a week content. This means we need to keep ourselves occupied in dungeons. Problem is the only dungeons we are strong enough are the basic tier 2 dungeon that we have been playing for years…. this cause players to leave the game. mid level players need some attention as there are more of them than end gamers and neglecting them/us is seriously hurting the game. P.S. I do get to run all content due to some awesome alliance members, but not all are as fortunate to have 2 end gamers willing to carry a week team through TO9G/MSVA/FBI/MSP. I tend to only do this endgame stuff 1 time as I do not like being a burden on these awesome alliance members.
There are more than BIS players in this game RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ???? FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
I have a solution to make this 100% more palatable
If we run in the random queue - we shouldn't need keys to open the chests at the end.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
I have a solution to make this 100% more palatable
If we run in the random queue - we shouldn't need keys to open the chests at the end.
Nothing that can improve in anyway the QoL of the players is going to be implemented. Just read the number of pages across the number of threads, across the number of mods that came after mod6. The number of great ideas from the players that they were fully discussed is huge, but each single idea aimed to improve the QoL has been ignored and each single time the devs didnt even bother to give an answer why they were going to be ignored.
Every change that the devs had added to the game over the last 2 years were aimed to make the life of players worst and the AD they receive reduced. Open the chest freely is the opposite route the devs want, the idea is that you receive as little as possible and increase the effort as much as possible. Every change is going to go on that direction and they stretch those margins as much they can on each mod.
Comments
https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10652354-developer-blog:-campaign-progression-for-alts
But a consequence you may not have considered is the one raised a few pages ago: Players will now be able to unlock the epic dungeons twice as fast, but their ability (read 'time' w.r.t. the daily caps) to earn the AD needed to get the RP to have the right EQ for epic dungeons has not been increased to match. This will only increase the number of undergeared alts in the RQ.
To be clear, yes, they'll get their drowcraft/dragonflight/pioneer gear faster, but that's such a minuscule part of effectiveness when compared to high-level enchants (which require RP hence AD), weapon enhancements (c.wards, hence more AD), armor enhancements (c.wards, hence more AD) reinforcement kits (100k AD each if you make them yourself, more on AH, each time you change a piece of armor), high-level runes (e.g., bondings or eldritch...which will need more p.wards, hence AD), not to mention trying to refine artifacts to Mythic (RP hence AD) or taking artifact EQ to legendary (even more RP, hence more AD).
Yes, they will get to boons faster, which is an important piece of effectiveness, but it also seems that you've decided to make boons have campaign-specific bonuses in later modules...e.g., increased damage against hunts...so there's a limit to the benefit.
People will need so much AD they will _have_ to RQ with their alts, or they may as well abandon them like the rest of us mostly have.
And the dungeon design of tomb of the nine gods, and lack of knowlage of a certain detail: the one DC must be an anoited champion, and he/she must spam AA at Withers and Ras Nsi, otherwise partial paralysys kicks in, and ppl get roasted, unable to step out of the jets of fire, and/or replenish their own and fellow party members hp by lifesteal, pots or heals, fail to end the defiant souls tortured unlife in time or spiral twitching into a bottomless pit. Both fights are just too unforgiving, that control effect needs to be negated completely, or its a fail no matter the quality of the rest of the team.
I was once stuck at withers with a weak group, before I figured out the AA/paralysys thing, one DC iirc, so after a few wipes we tried to actually play the mechanic and send two Dps up there to kill his assistent tomb dwarfs, hoping for a slower, but safer victory(iirc the original design of that fight allowed that, never been to preview, but read the forums)...it wasn´t possible, but lead to even faster fails...(thanks to thouse atrocious whiners claiming that original design was too easy/boring, and the devs who listened to them).
Also the thing that makes a "one main dps, 4 buffers group" so much faster, safer and more popular than group compositions with more damage dealers is the fact, that at the avatar of orcus(the dungeons first great dps check wall), only one damage dealer can get the advantage of the damage enhancing curse.
Back when FBI was new, ppl also used to play it safe by running that one main dps, 4 supports group composition too(more defensive buffs), but then, when ppl got stronger and better figured the dungeon out, it loosened up, allowing for more variety in group composition. Because of the above, for t9g it will take much longer until that happens.
Common belief seems to be it takes more than 30 minutes longer to beat that dungeon with only one DC than with two. I know from experiance the difference is less than 10 minutes, probably even smaller...its hard to find ppl willing to risk running another composition than the one believed superior...and I´m usually too lazy, and have too small a network to be the one forming the party anyway xD.
I´d like a few more experiance reports on this: how long did your fastest 2 DC group take to beat t9g? How long did your fastest 1 Dc group take? Were you ever in a group that has beaten that dungeon without a DC, and if so, how long did that take?
Maybe that way we can prove to @asterdahl that the real difference is not big enough to swing the nerf bat xD.
Did i do TONG with just one DC ? -----> Yes. I was the DC.
Did i finish it in a timely fashion ? -----> Yes, our last run lasted for an hour.
But we shifted through the party , since people had to go do real life stuff.
Does 2 DC's work all the time ? ----- > No. In my experience, even groups with 2 DCs fail sometimes.
How long did it take to do TONG with 2 DC's in party ----> Ranging from 30 minutes to 2 hours run, at the beginning , my first run lasted 5 and a half hours. Until we figured it all out.
Fastest run with 2 DCs -----> 35 min ? I think .... >.<
Fastest run with 1 DC -----> 45 min ? My guild likes to take its sweet time. We do all the puzzles as well.
Unfortunately i never did it without a DC , mainly cos i abandoned my alts and i just play my main who is a DC.
I did TONG with one DC several times. Times ranges from 2 hours to 35 mins but avg 45-50min. It heavinly depended on rest of the team obviously and I'm not BiS either. People not realizing the mechanics might add several minutes easily. I find DC DO works the best in between and AC for mentioned bosses to counter CC (but I also did it whole only on dc do too). Two DC's don't work all the time. You can't buff dead or bring near 0 dps to milions
I've never done it on diffrent class than DC since I was forced to abandon my other alts due to time constrains.
I don't think there is issue with two DCs..let people run with what they want. But dps classes damage output just seems too low without any buffs compared to end game content. That or increase rewards enough so 2 hours runs should be profitable :P. And there is also problem that even if you're able to survive attacks you will fail the content without enough dps since a lot of mechanics resolve around killing stuff before it debuffs you to the ground, temp hp runs out etc. Content should be able to be done even with low dps (just slower..).
Could not agree with this more - but that the thing with this game there is a lot of content that is just not playable for the average person playing the game, and all of these changes that are being made will just add to this
DPS-races are the exception rather than the rule, but are a mechanic that has existed in every MMO since EQ1, with Enrage Timers and stacking buffs/debuffs. The clearest example in NW is FBI Dragon Turtle Slams -- but most content *can* be done with low dps (just slower...).
It's just that...we're in a weird state where the damage output of a given party is ludicrously variable depending on its composition, but also where the damage output of any given toon is ludicrously variable depending on their build and skill level.
And dungeons like FBI that are "too easy / can be speedrun" with a flawless meta high skilled- GF+OP+DC+DC+GWF/HR party in <10 mins can take an hour with perfectly acceptably-skilled OP+DC+SW+TR+CW.
I've been in runs that killed Drufi in <30s, and in runs that took >10 mins to kill her. Neither one of those durations is at all compelling for a boss fight.
There's a sweet spot in there somewhere, probably in the ~25-45 minute per dungeon range and in the 2-5 minute per boss range, where the content is hard enough to feel rewarding for completing it and to feel compelling, without being sped through and not caring about the story, and without feeling like you're bashing your head against a brick wall making infinitesimal progress despite critting for >1M damage with KF every 7s.
The single largest issue for Cryptic to solve with this game right now is the extreme imbalance between the damage output of a given class at its skill floor versus the damage output of that same class at its skill ceiling. Even moreso than bringing party buffing under control.
Random Queues proposal
Random queues will require 1 tank, 3 dps and 1 heal.
People will obviously want heal to be cleric, because buffs.
DPS can be a variety of different things.
As for tank, however, the way it stands now, OP is much better tank and buffs way better too. Once people can't take both GF and OP for the endgame content, people will go for OP only.
Further down the road, damage of the GF will be nerfed, taking away the slight advantage GF has over OP. There will be no reason for any party to pick GF in their random queues at all, if they want to maximise their chances of succeeding at random queue T9G.
I have done the turtle as a GF+DC, and didn't use bondings, the turtle had 0 slams.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
ETA - I'm taking about weekdays after work. I'll gladly help out anyone when I have time on the weekend.
I spend way too much money on this game to have dungeons that I have no desire or need to run (mostly because of rewards/time ratio, but also because anything related to SKT is totally pointless now) forced on me to get AD.
I'll just drop out of the dungeon (which is terrible for everyone else involved), you'll penalize me and at some point I'll get sick of sitting around and spend my money somewhere else.
It feels as if they don't want those who enjoy the game and are happy being a part of it. It's really gearing towards the BiS focused who are happy to slap down cash over time, hence focusing on what makes the grind longer VS fixing game glitches, etc....
What are you trying to accomplish with the change? 2 DC parties? Some dungeons not being run?
If it's 2 DC parties then just have the normal Qs give the bonus AD. If it's some dungeons not being run then give us a reason to run them. Simple solutions to whatever problems you think are in the game rather than creating new problems.
Why are some dungeons not run?Time/reward is your answer. Fix the loot tables to reward the time put in to a dungeon and people will run them. It's not hard.
Newer players can't run Malabog, Valindra or ETOS now without opening up FBI? Seriously? How are they ever supposed to catch up?
This is a game killing change, believe it or not. It not only pisses off your current player base, but puts up an enormous wall to any new players... An absolutely terrible combination.
I'm sorry you wasted the time, resources and money developing this feature, but it's an absolutely horrendous idea and needs to be thrown in the trash.
Stop over-complicating things and just give players a reason to run current content. It's really simple.
Fine, once this comes through.. I will do RQs, fine. But if I ever get for example FBI.. I'll just leave. I don't care about deserter penalty. I'd rather go watch tv or do something else during whatever time that penalty lasts than waste my time for nothing. I will never ever pug FBI through the auto queue. And I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking this.
You will immediately know what kind of RQ you drew by whether it starts as a conversation to find the strongest <2x buff/debuff, heal, tank, gwf dps> roles, or whether some dumb-HAMSTER goes running right in. I suppose that is assuming you drew a challenging dungeon. On the other hand, it's not like there's a shortage of non-dungeon things to grind while waiting out the penalty --- between SH coffer, SKT EQ, RiverDistrict boons that I never bothered with, or the endless Chult lure farming.
Who knows, I might farm enough campaign currencies from the other zones in that time to actually have the keys for the dungeons I randomly draw
Also, I think it fails to address some of the key issues with levelling dungeons and skirmishes. Mainly, that leveling dungeons are so easy, that one player literally Zerg-rushes through it all at FULL SPRINT (max movement bonus and/or the Warlock / GWF Sprint) one-shotting everything giving nobody else any time to do anything besides just struggle to keep up at the paltry low level run bonus, not even having enough to loot, much less fight.
This is especially bad in Cloak Tower, and also pretty bad in the Bandit Crypt that comes up next. It's to the point where I wish there was a no-reward (or low-reward) SOLO version of those dungeons so I could go in them with alts and experience the full immersion and storyline they were intended to provide. I've never completed the plant/crystal on the Altar "recipe" quest in Cloak Tower EVEN ONCE!
Also, leveling Skirmishes (with the unreasonably tight level bounds) NEVER pop. They just don't after the first two, and even the second usually doesn't. There needs to be a fix for this. Random queues don't sound like it, because they don't guarantee that you'll get in the skirmish you want, and with XP being so generous nowadays, you outlevel Skirmishes you may want to try FAST.
Even with random queues, I'd like to see Skirmishes dropped to 3 people max, and have their level ranges either upped, or eliminated completely so you can get into them at higher levels to experience the story.
Lastly, the "leaver" or "quitter" penalty or whatnot seems nice in theory, but what if you're in a group with AFK or disconnected people who literally can't even move or have griefers or trolls who are intentionally ruining the experience for you? Or botters or leechers who aren't contributing and making you do all the work? There has to be a way to account for this, and even just voting to "surrender / give up" won't necessarily work if the people trolling / botting refuse to vote or vote against you. At the bare minimum, it should only require 2/3 or 3/5 votes to choose to "give up" and there should be a robust vote kick system that can't easily be abused by groups of trolls to kick totally innocent people constantly.
Don't get me wrong, implemented correctly, Random queues sound like they would be a good thing, but the way it's described now, it feels full of holes, and something that shouldn't replace what we have now, but supplement it. It also feels like it doesn't solve enough problems, particularly with lower level content like first time run throughs of Cloak Tower. A new player "bonus" won't stop people from zerging through it, acting like the rest of the party doesn't exist, and making it literally impossible for new players to enjoy the experience the way it was intended.
If the answer is "yes" to both questions then we players have all means to show the devs in-game that we do not want random epic queues as they are planed: run a random leveling queue for ADs once, then run as many epic private queues as you like for seals and salvage. Do NOT run random epic queues. Problem solved.
You can also entering levelling skirmishes solo/in undersized group, provided you are within the level range and feel confident you'll be able to complete the fights.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
So their absence from Random Queues won't be noted as a protest but as the actual desired result of this stupid system.
The other problem is that many of us genuinely don't want to run leveling dungeons, because we've leveled to the point where the epic dungeons are open.
It's how you play these games... play to unlock the next content, play that content to unlock the next.
The new NW model is play to unlock the next content... then go back and grind that stuff you can now walk through with your eyes closed and one arm tied behind your back, before you are allowed to get the reward for playing the content you just unlocked.
I have three characters who will qualify for Random Queues on the basis that one of them has unlocked the material required, and the other two scrape the 11K entry requirement.
The best way to show them how dumb it is is probably to play RQ with your sub par 11K alts. So when FBI and MSP see a success rate of less than 5% due to undergeared players, people leaving in droves, and getting booted asap... maybe someone upstairs will take note?
When the complaints start pouring in, then they might take notice.
I'm in a position, and I'm probably not alone, where I have three options.
* Continue to progress at my current rate by playing game material I dislike
* Play content I like without the progression
* Go play a different game where I can do both.
None of which are even remotely "optimal".
1. It will not happen. People will complain and adept. And play random epic queues. No matter how much they dislike it. This has happened and will happen again.
2. Even if 1. does not happen and random epic queues are getting more and more dusty every day due to not being touched, I am afraid - and I say this from my experience from the last four years in this game - that the devs won't increase the incentive for the random epic queues, but rather nerf the rewards for the other queues.
Still, I would try it. Running a single random leveling queue, albeit boring, does not take too much time and may be the price we have to pay for showing them what we do not want.
As for ad generation I do believe you still get seals if you don’t queue for the dungeons under random queue scenario so you still have that option it will maybe just take you a bit longer. This looks like a win-win. They had to do something for mid and entry level players since all content the last year was just aimed at end game.
I take it their theory was as we get stronger the endgame content will become appropriate for mid level. The problem with that is it is just not worth running old end game content for a midlevel player. take FBI. you get a peridot for that run the vornin blood and gear drops are now useless … meaning the dungeon is useless for mid game and yet again no content for mid gamers.
I am a mid level player (my mains are between 13k and 14k) so I am looking at this from our point of view. we got 2 campaigns this year 1 had a 1 mission a day content and the other 1 day a week content. This means we need to keep ourselves occupied in dungeons. Problem is the only dungeons we are strong enough are the basic tier 2 dungeon that we have been playing for years…. this cause players to leave the game. mid level players need some attention as there are more of them than end gamers and neglecting them/us is seriously hurting the game.
P.S. I do get to run all content due to some awesome alliance members, but not all are as fortunate to have 2 end gamers willing to carry a week team through TO9G/MSVA/FBI/MSP. I tend to only do this endgame stuff 1 time as I do not like being a burden on these awesome alliance members.
RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ????
FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
If we run in the random queue - we shouldn't need keys to open the chests at the end.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Every change that the devs had added to the game over the last 2 years were aimed to make the life of players worst and the AD they receive reduced. Open the chest freely is the opposite route the devs want, the idea is that you receive as little as possible and increase the effort as much as possible. Every change is going to go on that direction and they stretch those margins as much they can on each mod.