It is good that you are aware of the the role requirements being out of touch, and looking into it, but thats not enough: imho the role definitions and requirements need to be fixed before big amounts of incentive(AD rewards) are removed from the queue from that doesn´t care about roles, and moved to one that does.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
@asterdahl the explanations you are giving sound good, i hope they turn out to be good when they're in dragon as well, about the voninblood and relic restoration, i don't think voninblood is a problem at all, with a master's trowel, historian regalia, remorhaz, frostborn piece of gear and excavator's potion of everfrost resist i can farm 25k Voninblood per hour easy, the problem about relic is the restoration (gear is fine, weapons aren't).
Put yourself in the player's place, you have one set of weapons selling for around 50k on AH, and another that needs to be restored for hundreds of thousands of ADs and after that marks still need to be extensively farmed so that set becomes better than the chultan one (because lvl 60 chultan or lvl 59 SKT set it's praticly the same). I know the relation effort/reward needs to behave exponentially and not linearly but this case is a bit of an extreme case.
@micky1p00 where was it stated from this end that players that queue easy content are abusers? Though players that queue easy content (or any content) and AFK farm and or purposely under perform are abusing.
1.) Will not share the AD gain systems players from this end utilize, doing so will devalue those efforts. 2.) Not all bots have all the content in the RQ system scripted. Those that do, the RQ system will seemingly force bots into longer content where legitimate players would have a "better" opportunity to vote kick them. 3.) Don't know how much AD you will make. Even if it is less it is the choice of the players to manual queue, RQ and or utilize other parts of the game for AD. Players want the bonus RAD so the RQ will incline them to participate > help queues pop faster > help lower level players. 4.) Epic dungeons are not the only RQ available. Lower level content will more than likely see a substantial decrease in queue time due to players seeking quick bonus RAD. As far as epic RQ, often enough players run epic and higher content with a private group though the RQ system and Mod 12b allowing players to level and access higher ilvl equipment without with less RNG will also allow for more players to be in the ilvl range for epic RQ. If lower content queues pop faster than higher level content that doesn't necessarily make the system bad.
Often enough people on the forums take statements of others and try to break them down to the where they will appear untrue and or overlook information that damages their own argument(s).
@tntslayer1 mastercraft is an investment, unfortunately a number of people do not wish to invest in leveling and or purchasing the equipment.
@wisper2048 normal dungeons and skirmishes will grant AD through the RQ system, even those alone offers a considerable amount of RAD > AD.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Skill level increase? U really think those in high population/rank guilds are gonna start hand held teaching random pugs to run content?
Absolutely, if the rewards are significant enough. I'm not saying the system will convert every vitriolic player into a saint. However, if the rewards are high enough, helping a single new player through content instead of angrily dropping can actually become worth it.
The numbers we're starting with might not be high enough, but we'll definitely be monitoring things. The cultural shift won't happen overnight, but the incentives have to be there for it to happen at all.
There will not be a skill increase in players as long as content can be cheesed. Buffs are too strong, debuffs are STILL too strong. I am really tired of seeing speedruns on Youtube.
There will always be speed runs. We don't have a goal of getting rid of them, because this is impossible. Players will obviously want to get rewards as fast as they can. That being said, we obviously want to change the status quo in a few ways: 1) We'd like the activity with the fastest time/reward ratio to not be doing the exact same thing over and over. 2) We'd like to have a world where if you are doing things with a pick up group and things don't look like they're going as fast as you'd like, it's usually better to stick with it as opposed to dropping and trying again. 3) We'd like to decrease the time delta between groups a bit, both by making the average group a little faster and bringing the top end closer to the average.
Random queues primarily addresses 1 and things like new player bonus and restrictions on kicking and leaver penalty are meant to address 2. 3 is something we are constantly trying to address with PvE adjustments, but we won't be reaching our goal there in the immediate future.
But in terms of speed runs, even with random queues, players will naturally want to complete the dungeon they end up in as quickly as possible, and that's fine. Hopefully it just won't be the same dungeon every time. In terms of running full speed through content and having very little danger thanks to the overwhelming power of buffs and debuffs, yes this is something I've addressed a little and it's something we are definitely looking into.
@asterdahl the explanations you are giving sound good, i hope they turn out to be good when they're in dragon as well, about the voninblood and relic restoration, i don't think voninblood is a problem at all, with a master's trowel, historian regalia, remorhaz, frostborn piece of gear and excavator's potion of everfrost resist i can farm 25k Voninblood per hour easy, the problem about relic is the restoration (gear is fine, weapons aren't).
Put yourself in the player's place, you have one set of weapons selling for around 50k on AH, and another that needs to be restored for hundreds of thousands of ADs and after that marks still need to be extensively farmed so that set becomes better than the chultan one (because lvl 60 chultan or lvl 59 SKT set it's praticly the same). I know the relation effort/reward needs to behave exponentially and not linearly but this case is a bit of an extreme case.
I wasn't talking about weapons at all, I was talking about armor—I apologize, I wasn't very clear because I was responding directly to a comment about the seal store, which only has armor. No adjustments will be made to weapons. If you don't want to invest in something above the crafted Chultan weapons, that's okay. Those weapons are there as a catch up and alt-friendly weapon set.
Naturally, we'll be introducing newer stronger weapons at some point. (Though not with Module 12B.)
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
@micky1p00 where was it stated from this end that players that queue easy content are abusers? Though players that queue easy content (or any content) and AFK farm and or purposely under perform are abusing.
1.) Will not share the AD gain systems players from this end utilize, doing so will devalue those efforts. 2.) Not all bots have all the content in the RQ system scripted. Those that do, the RQ system will seemingly force bots into longer content where legitimate players would have a "better" opportunity to vote kick them. 3.) Don't know how much AD you will make. Even if it is less it is the choice of the players to manual queue, RQ and or utilize other parts of the game for AD. Players want the bonus RAD so the RQ will incline them to participate > help queues pop faster > help lower level players. 4.) Epic dungeons are not the only RQ available. Lower level content will more than likely see a substantial decrease in queue time due to players seeking quick bonus RAD. As far as epic RQ, often enough players run epic and higher content with a private group though the RQ system and Mod 12b allowing players to level and access higher ilvl equipment without with less RNG will also allow for more players to be in the ilvl range for epic RQ. If lower content queues pop faster than higher level content that doesn't necessarily make the system bad.
Often enough people on the forums take statements of others and try to break them down to the where they will appear untrue and or overlook information that damages their own argument(s).
@tntslayer1 mastercraft is an investment, unfortunately a number of people do not wish to invest in leveling and or purchasing the equipment.
@wisper2048 normal dungeons and skirmishes will grant AD through the RQ system, even those alone offers a considerable amount of RAD > AD.
Here is where you call people who run easy content for AD as abusers:
AFK farmers, bots and abusers are mentioned together because they all contribute to various changes to the game, in other words the various abuses of the game helped garner changes such as the RQ (players manually running the easiest content for RAD, bots being scripted due to the ease of the content, AFK farmers leeching skirmishes, etc.). Only mentioning bots in your argument doesn't negate the existence and actions of the other (AFK farmers, abusers).
Notice that you separated to 3 groups: 1. AFK farmers. 2. Bots 3. Abusers - players manually running the easiest content for RAD
And separated AFK from the abusers. By using commas - list separator, and putting bots between. So don't play games now.
To your responses:
1. Interesting that there are generation sources other than salvage and rAD dungeon bonus (+weeklies). So either it's an exploit, then you should report it and stop using it, or you don't understand the difference between AD changing hands (which is not relevant) and AD generated into the system (inflation, the only relevant to this discussion). In any case something that is unknown is akin to not exist anyway, as the general population can't use it so we back to dungeons as the AD source in the game (including the salvage + the relevant bonuses from invokes and what not. And I'll stop mentioning the weeklies..).
2. Bots can run by themselves, nor you can separate a new player from a bad bot. Often the bot will be better. And with the same level of communicability. It's not the place nor the topic, nor I want to condone such behavior, but a simple google is worth more than my thousand words. And if one bot will fail, another better one, will replace it, that's a plague that can't be simply cured.
3. How much I'll make is irrelevant, the measurement is how much is possible to do. And we measure in AD/time. Your answer is irrelevant to the question, and it was a very very simple question. Here for your convenience: "Comparing to 2xeToS, for 15min per char. Will I make more or less ? AD/time."
4. Yes, and I've referred to leveling dungeons in several posts. Leveling dungeons pop right now and don't have any tank, healer requirements. While public queue for msva, sp, etc.. will not pop in a timly fashion for dps. So your answer that leveling dungeon will pop is nice, but not relevant to the main issue. Also Private queue has lower gear requirements than RQ, so the argument that it will allow access is not correct. In addition "higher ilvl equipment without with less RNG" is exactly the opposite of the essence of RQ ! I think you forgot that the "R" in "RQ" means "Random". Someone who is gear progressing, needs specific dungeons, and not random queue. Random queue is meant for geared players farming AD to indirectly carry/fill party for those who need the specific gear from dungeons and PubQ them.
Often enough on the forums people tend to ignore very simple questions by writing entire walls of text but not giving a straight and direct answer. Often same people try to shift blame when confronted with inaccuracies or, I hope not, lies in their posts.
So lets try again so there wont be confusion:
1. What are the plenty of ways to generate AD ? There are plenty no? I'm sure you are willing to share a small number, especially to help the poor masses. Lets focus on ways that are available to new players and/or with limited time. And please don't suggest ViP on multiple accounts - bannable, not generating AD. AH trading - long term, not new players, not generating AD. GM/MW resources - long term, must utilize events, not for new players, takes guild, not generating AD.
2. Bots, I trust in your google abilities. Or you can trust my technical affinity when I say it wont matter.
3. AD/time. simple. More or less with new system ?
4. Will RQ solve the queue problem, I'll quote my original question:
"Will RQ solve the stated problem of queue pop in a timely fashion? Please consider here, if people will be inclined to gamble on FBI/SP without a premade or not, especially on less geared alts."
I think it's quite clear that I don't refer to leveling dungeons, which have no relevance to players progress in the game (except now as primary AD source).
I have significantly less issue with the concept of RQ than with people that try to hide it's downsides instead of tackling them head on and trying to suggest something constructive on how to solve the issues. Sugar coating is the first step towards failure and antagonizing people who don't simply follow the candy to the tinted van.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited September 2017
I do not intend to get more SKT weapons, i was just commenting that it's pointless they being so expensive at this point for little reward on time invested, anyway another more important thing, Tiamat, if the instance does not defeat Tiamat something around 6 seconds sooner than timer the round will fail, that is infuriating people this passed double ToD currency event there where lots and lots of complains and rage quitings.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited September 2017
Personally my main concern from all of this, is that people who are now running eToSes and other t2 in a very efficient manner, and can't run FBI, SP etc.. even somewhat closely, will move to leveling dungeons at the begining, and then quit the game. Because leveling dungeons are, IMO, significantly more mundane than even the same eToS / eSoT. And eventually quit because of the repeated easy stomp in the leveling dungeons.
I'm personally not as effected by this, I don't need as much AD to 'progress', nor I play as much as before. But I sincerely hope it will work out, because right now, I see people discouraged by the notion of repeated leveling dungeons. Hopefully the added reward in SP and the account unlock will counter that.
IMO, it's still worth considering the separation of FBI and SP in some manner, or providing a RQ specific reward for it. For example added 2k (once a day) if you got SP / FBI. similar to how the single total RQ bonus works. (Just an idea)
is that people who are now running eToSes and other t2 in a very efficient manner, and can't run FBI, SP etc.. even somewhat closely, will move to leveling dungeons at the begining
Like the people sending their leadership/invoke alts to the eToS grinder. I'd say its quite efficient when all you need is one good DPS and the chances of drawing one is pretty good.
And the quality of these alts been dropping fast. See so many HR and CW alts now that just stand back and pew pew away, no encounters. There this one HR with a t.lightening who is always dead last paingiver by far, even worst than the other trashy alts. Obviously this guy is using a spare trans enchant to hit the iLvl number to get in for the RAD, and not too interested in playing the toon for real. I'm getting tired of having to carry these people.
Doing the leveling dungeons will be a snoozer. But at least it will be fast. I will even use the epic queue. But if I get FBI/mSP, I'm leaving to do something else, like weeklies and chult dailies. I still haven't unlock ToNG since I've been too busy going through the eTos/eGWD grinders.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
is that people who are now running eToSes and other t2 in a very efficient manner, and can't run FBI, SP etc.. even somewhat closely, will move to leveling dungeons at the begining
Like the people sending their leadership/invoke alts to the eToS grinder. I'd say its quite efficient when all you need is one good DPS and the chances of drawing one is pretty good.
And the quality of these alts been dropping fast. See so many HR and CW alts now that just stand back and pew pew away, no encounters. There this one HR with a t.lightening who is always dead last paingiver by far, even worst than the other trashy alts. Obviously this guy is using a spare trans enchant to hit the iLvl number to get in for the RAD, and not too interested in playing the toon for real. I'm getting tired of having to carry these people.
Doing the leveling dungeons will be a snoozer. But at least it will be fast. I will even use the epic queue. But if I get FBI/mSP, I'm leaving to do something else, like weeklies and chult dailies. I still haven't unlock ToNG since I've been too busy going through the eTos/eGWD grinders.
Can't say much about the PugQ, if I join the eToS runs they are always among guild / friends, where we make sure that there is always a good composition of roles and ungeared alts, and actual playable chars. Also it what makes the swaping chars instant as everyone suggests / decides what they will run next even before the boss is dead on the current run.
This both allows to keep the runs and the overhead to a minimal time.
In pugQ, a good eToS composition is one HDPS GWF/HR and any other four. Even my 12/13K toons feel carried and violated at times. Quite often at the first two bosses, my DC don't even have time to get off a second emp BtS.
Sadly, since private queue went live, seems most of these people just solo queue instead of waiting in the DPS line. Which is good because my DPS wait is much shorter now, but bad because now I'm doing most of the carrying since its too hard to solo it myself. Which is why I don't mind the RQ change. I'll reserve my full judgement till I give it whirl a few times.
Um no! The rewards are hoarable at a systemic level in game and have been trending towards worse since at least mod 6. Teaching guildies how to play the game is painful. Teaching pugs that dont want to learn/were not programed to learn is about as much fun as developing a high hemoroid.
I agree with you in theory. But the real issue is language. If they cannot read/write/understand English, how can I teach them anything? That has been my issue in PUGs. That could be a HUGE issue here.
you can continue doing that in exactly the same way you do now, you'll just have to run 1 random leveling dungeon (which you can do with 2 of your friends)
I realise I keep coming back to this, but: have the developers actually *run* a levelling dungeon recently? Taken fresh L70 into one, then a moderately geared or powerful toon?
Was that fun? Did you think it was an entertaining way to spend your time? Did you even have to *slow down* on any of the monsters?
Can you at least acknowledge that you're gating most of the daily AD behind content that's way too easy to be fun, for anyone?
Stop paying attention to the high powered people who spend thousands of dollars to pay to win... don't the rest of us matter at all?
This change is definitely not directed at "high powered people." But more on why more casual players will benefit the most from these changes—if you don't have a huge network of friends, or if your friends happen to be offline, you'll be able to queue for whatever you want to do, or currently need, and your queue will pop faster than ever thanks to the people who are in the random queue. (You don't have to random queue, but those people in the random queue which encompasses whatever you queued for will be joining you to assist you.)
Something I think you have over looked. Let's say I need the hardest epic dungeons and I queue up for it. I think I'll be sitting there for a long time because the random queue players will just decline the queue when it pops up on the screen because they will want to wait for something that they can complete.
Stop paying attention to the high powered people who spend thousands of dollars to pay to win... don't the rest of us matter at all?
Absolutely, all of our players mater to us. In fact, your self-described casual play style marks you as someone who stands to benefit the most from the changes. It sounds like you're saying you have a pretty active guild and circle of friends you play with, so you were pretty happy with using private queues casually, and that will still be possible—you can continue doing that in exactly the same way you do now, you'll just have to run 1 random leveling dungeon (which you can do with 2 of your friends) to get a big chunk of AD that you used to be able to get from doing 2 private queued epic dungeons before.
Does this mean that you can do random queues as a group of 3 for regular dungeons and 5 for epic dungeons?
In pugQ, a good eToS composition is one HDPS GWF/HR and any other four. Even my 12/13K toons feel carried and violated at times. Quite often at the first two bosses, my DC don't even have time to get off a second emp BtS.
Another good reason why class balance is important. Cryptic REALLY need to get their act together on class balance, it would improve the game a lot overall.
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vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
Stop paying attention to the high powered people who spend thousands of dollars to pay to win... don't the rest of us matter at all?
Absolutely, all of our players mater to us. In fact, your self-described casual play style marks you as someone who stands to benefit the most from the changes. It sounds like you're saying you have a pretty active guild and circle of friends you play with, so you were pretty happy with using private queues casually, and that will still be possible—you can continue doing that in exactly the same way you do now, you'll just have to run 1 random leveling dungeon (which you can do with 2 of your friends) to get a big chunk of AD that you used to be able to get from doing 2 private queued epic dungeons before.
This change is definitely not directed at "high powered people." But more on why more casual players will benefit the most from these changes—if you don't have a huge network of friends, or if your friends happen to be offline, you'll be able to queue for whatever you want to do, or currently need, and your queue will pop faster than ever thanks to the people who are in the random queue. (You don't have to random queue, but those people in the random queue which encompasses whatever you queued for will be joining you to assist you.)
On top of this, if you hadn't cleared whatever queue you are in before, everyone with you will get a notification saying that someone is new and everyone will be getting an AD bonus if they clear the content, so they'll be motivated to help you. You can choose whether or not to let them know you're the new player, the system won't out you specifically.
We listen to all of our players, whether you've been with us a long time, or are just starting—we want to make the experience the best it can be. I mentioned in a previous post that we strongly believe long term this new system will benefit even our most hardcore player thanks to a cultural shift and the resulting overall skill level increase of players as a result of that cultural shift, but in the short term this feature is definitely strongly directed at helping newer players.
so, if all players in que are manually queing for ETOS, then all random queing players are forced (or probably forced) to go for ETOS? yes or no?
So... There goes another week without making better our awful rewards. If we were to make less AD, and @asterdahl claims the market would adjust, can we expect some adjustments too in the Wondrous Bazaar and/or a way to get Wards at all (you know, those little things needed for improving our characters that are gated behind premium currency?).
All the new changes of Mod12b seem like a way to 'fix' salvage runs, but the way you're implementing it is upside-down, salvage runs started because it became really hard to get what you want from any particular dungeon, so everyone runs a ton of stuff to compensate, because that eventually will get you enough AD to buy the stuff, so it makes perfect sense that we will be running the fastest dungeons. I don't play those because they're super fun or exciting! Lol.
I'm sorry if I'm getting annoying with my reward issue, but please take a deep look at the chests we're getting and just add some real value, anything, unique rewards for each dungeon, unbound transmutes, Wards, idk, stuff that makes us really put some effort in finishing the dungeon no-matter-what, isn't that what you're aiming for? Plz!!
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
your launching a new refinement system to at the same time, and with a new refinement system last thing you want to do is lessen or change the way people making AD
These changes really won't have a noteworthy impact on refinement. Keep in mind that refinement is essentially a commodity market in Neverwinter, which is basically a world with only one currency—astral diamonds. Things are a little more complicated than this explanation, but if everyone's AD earn were negatively impacted by these changes (which they won't be) there would be deflation across the board and the price of refinement would fall to compensate for the change in everyone's income.
Essentially, in terms of refinement, your buying power would stay the same, because you'd be buying from other people whose earnings also went down. The only place you'd have less buying power was against items with a static cost, things that come from NPCs for instance, which are few and far between compared to player-traded goods.
With all that said, there shouldn't really be a huge impact on the AD economy from these changes, and almost certainly not a deflation effect.
(My bold to highlight the primary point I'm replying to.)
The thing is, fixed costs from NPCs and UI interactions (companion upgrade, for example) and other prices set by Cryptic (AD cost attached to crafting tasks for reinforcements/jewels) are the very things that we have little if any ability to offset or eliminate completely by the ancient art of being patient.
You don't ever need to buy RP if you don't feel the need to rank up all your stuff ARGH I NEED IT MAXED RIGHT NOW. Same thing with waiting for the lockbox rotation to bring in the artifact/arti equipment/weapon or armor enchant/etc. your little heart desires and buy during a key sale. Anything you're planning to buy from other players, you can be very money-grubbing about. Sure, they get some of your hard-earned AD, but you can take steps to make sure it's as little of your AD as possible.
Costs set by Cryptic, you mostly have the choice of paying in full, or opting out of those systems altogether.
i don't think voninblood is a problem at all, with a master's trowel, historian regalia, remorhaz, frostborn piece of gear and excavator's potion of everfrost resist i can farm 25k Voninblood per hour easy
I don't think it's remotely reasonable that anyone should have ever felt the need to farm up or pay for all this tat, and then micromanage using it.
Stop paying attention to the high powered people who spend thousands of dollars to pay to win... don't the rest of us matter at all?
Absolutely, all of our players mater to us. In fact, your self-described casual play style marks you as someone who stands to benefit the most from the changes. It sounds like you're saying you have a pretty active guild and circle of friends you play with, so you were pretty happy with using private queues casually, and that will still be possible—you can continue doing that in exactly the same way you do now, you'll just have to run 1 random leveling dungeon (which you can do with 2 of your friends) to get a big chunk of AD that you used to be able to get from doing 2 private queued epic dungeons before.
Does this mean that you can do random queues as a group of 3 for regular dungeons and 5 for epic dungeons?
You'd have to. You can't queue for a normal dungeon in a group larger than 3.
Stop paying attention to the high powered people who spend thousands of dollars to pay to win... don't the rest of us matter at all?
Absolutely, all of our players mater to us. In fact, your self-described casual play style marks you as someone who stands to benefit the most from the changes. It sounds like you're saying you have a pretty active guild and circle of friends you play with, so you were pretty happy with using private queues casually, and that will still be possible—you can continue doing that in exactly the same way you do now, you'll just have to run 1 random leveling dungeon (which you can do with 2 of your friends) to get a big chunk of AD that you used to be able to get from doing 2 private queued epic dungeons before.
This change is definitely not directed at "high powered people." But more on why more casual players will benefit the most from these changes—if you don't have a huge network of friends, or if your friends happen to be offline, you'll be able to queue for whatever you want to do, or currently need, and your queue will pop faster than ever thanks to the people who are in the random queue. (You don't have to random queue, but those people in the random queue which encompasses whatever you queued for will be joining you to assist you.)
On top of this, if you hadn't cleared whatever queue you are in before, everyone with you will get a notification saying that someone is new and everyone will be getting an AD bonus if they clear the content, so they'll be motivated to help you. You can choose whether or not to let them know you're the new player, the system won't out you specifically.
We listen to all of our players, whether you've been with us a long time, or are just starting—we want to make the experience the best it can be. I mentioned in a previous post that we strongly believe long term this new system will benefit even our most hardcore player thanks to a cultural shift and the resulting overall skill level increase of players as a result of that cultural shift, but in the short term this feature is definitely strongly directed at helping newer players.
so, if all players in que are manually queing for ETOS, then all random queing players are forced (or probably forced) to go for ETOS? yes or no?
Probably not, as the queue would be able to sort the EToS players together and potentially sort the random players into random dungeons.
Though it would still depend on party compositions. If the manual EToS queue was full of DPS and not enough supports, the supports would be shunted over to fill groups for them.
I'm still side-eyeing the idea that support players are basically expected to be glorified babysitters who exist for purposes of ensuring that mediocre DPS players can get into anything they want.
Stop paying attention to the high powered people who spend thousands of dollars to pay to win... don't the rest of us matter at all?
Absolutely, all of our players mater to us. In fact, your self-described casual play style marks you as someone who stands to benefit the most from the changes. It sounds like you're saying you have a pretty active guild and circle of friends you play with, so you were pretty happy with using private queues casually, and that will still be possible—you can continue doing that in exactly the same way you do now, you'll just have to run 1 random leveling dungeon (which you can do with 2 of your friends) to get a big chunk of AD that you used to be able to get from doing 2 private queued epic dungeons before.
This change is definitely not directed at "high powered people." But more on why more casual players will benefit the most from these changes—if you don't have a huge network of friends, or if your friends happen to be offline, you'll be able to queue for whatever you want to do, or currently need, and your queue will pop faster than ever thanks to the people who are in the random queue. (You don't have to random queue, but those people in the random queue which encompasses whatever you queued for will be joining you to assist you.)
On top of this, if you hadn't cleared whatever queue you are in before, everyone with you will get a notification saying that someone is new and everyone will be getting an AD bonus if they clear the content, so they'll be motivated to help you. You can choose whether or not to let them know you're the new player, the system won't out you specifically.
We listen to all of our players, whether you've been with us a long time, or are just starting—we want to make the experience the best it can be. I mentioned in a previous post that we strongly believe long term this new system will benefit even our most hardcore player thanks to a cultural shift and the resulting overall skill level increase of players as a result of that cultural shift, but in the short term this feature is definitely strongly directed at helping newer players.
so, if all players in que are manually queing for ETOS, then all random queing players are forced (or probably forced) to go for ETOS? yes or no?
Probably not, as the queue would be able to sort the EToS players together and potentially sort the random players into random dungeons.
Though it would still depend on party compositions. If the manual EToS queue was full of DPS and not enough supports, the supports would be shunted over to fill groups for them.
I'm still side-eyeing the idea that support players are basically expected to be glorified babysitters who exist for purposes of ensuring that mediocre DPS players can get into anything they want.
it depends. if the goal is helping each other, whats the point of force 5 players that solo que for random que to play MSP for example? If they are supposed to help nonrandom que, they should be transferred into elol or etos like 90% of time? if yes, its not that bad. only asterdahl can tell and i hope he will for his own good ))
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Stop paying attention to the high powered people who spend thousands of dollars to pay to win... don't the rest of us matter at all?
Absolutely, all of our players mater to us. In fact, your self-described casual play style marks you as someone who stands to benefit the most from the changes. It sounds like you're saying you have a pretty active guild and circle of friends you play with, so you were pretty happy with using private queues casually, and that will still be possible—you can continue doing that in exactly the same way you do now, you'll just have to run 1 random leveling dungeon (which you can do with 2 of your friends) to get a big chunk of AD that you used to be able to get from doing 2 private queued epic dungeons before.
This change is definitely not directed at "high powered people." But more on why more casual players will benefit the most from these changes—if you don't have a huge network of friends, or if your friends happen to be offline, you'll be able to queue for whatever you want to do, or currently need, and your queue will pop faster than ever thanks to the people who are in the random queue. (You don't have to random queue, but those people in the random queue which encompasses whatever you queued for will be joining you to assist you.)
On top of this, if you hadn't cleared whatever queue you are in before, everyone with you will get a notification saying that someone is new and everyone will be getting an AD bonus if they clear the content, so they'll be motivated to help you. You can choose whether or not to let them know you're the new player, the system won't out you specifically.
We listen to all of our players, whether you've been with us a long time, or are just starting—we want to make the experience the best it can be. I mentioned in a previous post that we strongly believe long term this new system will benefit even our most hardcore player thanks to a cultural shift and the resulting overall skill level increase of players as a result of that cultural shift, but in the short term this feature is definitely strongly directed at helping newer players.
so, if all players in que are manually queing for ETOS, then all random queing players are forced (or probably forced) to go for ETOS? yes or no?
Probably not, as the queue would be able to sort the EToS players together and potentially sort the random players into random dungeons.
Though it would still depend on party compositions. If the manual EToS queue was full of DPS and not enough supports, the supports would be shunted over to fill groups for them.
I'm still side-eyeing the idea that support players are basically expected to be glorified babysitters who exist for purposes of ensuring that mediocre DPS players can get into anything they want.
it depends. if the goal is helping each other, whats the point of force 5 players that solo que for random que to play MSP for example? If they are supposed to help nonrandom que, they should be transferred into elol or etos like 90% of time? if yes, its not that bad. only asterdahl can tell and i hope he will for his own good ))
Only the devs know the exact implementation, but the general idea is that it's some sort of best matching algorithm with a random fallback.
The only relevant participants for this are PubQ and RQ people, the private queue completly bypass the match-making algoritem and just opens an instance. So for example (I'll limit this to dungeon only for simplicity):
Group A of 1: DPS PubQ for eToS Group B of 2: DC, DPS PubQ for FBI Group C of 3: DPS, DPS, DPS RQ Group D of 2: DPS, DPS PubQ for eToS Group E of 1: DC RQ Group F of 5: Healdin, Tankdin, 3 DPS RQ Group G of 2: Tank, DPS RQ Group H of 4: DC, Tank, 2 DPS RQ Group I of 2: Tank GF, DPS GF, oh wait they can't, they go to /lfg Group J of 2: DC, Tank RQ Group K of 1: DPS RQ Group L of 2: Tank, DPS RQ
The simplest implementation is to brute force shuffle all the possible combinations (discarding those that do not meet the 1 Tank, 1 Heals, 3 DPS, and max of 5 restriction - and with the restriction that you can't separate groups) And assigning a score based on how many of the PubQ got grouped (perhaps a combined score of total satisfaction and pubQ). With perhaps additional weight given to queue times to prioritize people who wait long even if the total combination is not optimal.
So we get something like:
Group F -> Random fallback, they will get something random. Groups A + H -> eToS Groups G + E + D -> eToS Groups J + C -> Random fallback, and that's not optimal because they could have done J + B + K for FBI, but there is no wildcard, so 2 DC are not allowed. Group I could have solved that too.
Group B+ K + L -> FBI
In this case if the waiting time of group B outweighed the maximum matching, we could have match Group B + G + K -> FBI Before L queued.
(All that excluding mistakes I could have made)
We can see 2 main issues and both related, as fine graining the roles.
1. The Player roles should be more fine grained. 2. The queue requirements should be more fine grained and more flexible.
What that means is that, the players should be able to mark by themselves what they are capable of joining as (with some defaults) For example if we have 4 check-boxes (not mutually exclusive) where we check roles: Tank, Healer, Support (buff/debuff), DPS
A TR,GWF for example will check DPS. A CW, can check DPS and/or Support depending on their capability and load-outs (MoF / SS) Someone who plays healdin and not tankdin will select Healer. Someone who has loadouts for both and comfortable doing both can select "Tank" & "Healer" etc...
At the same time the queue requirements can be both more flexible, tiered and timed. In that I mean that
eToS can be: 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 1 DPS, Any, Any FBI: 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 DPS, support / DPS, support / DPS
And for example after a queue period of for example 10 minutes where there are people waiting for FBI, it could be relaxed to: 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 DPS, support / DPS, any
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
@asterdahl just a little question off-topic, any plans on bringing stat granting companions closer to the ones that give % of something? For example earth archon giving 5% more damage, assuming a player has 0 power it would take 2000 power to reach that amount but a same quality companion but with power grant will only grant 300 power.
Comments
imho the role definitions and requirements need to be fixed before big amounts of incentive(AD rewards) are removed from the queue from that doesn´t care about roles, and moved to one that does.
Put yourself in the player's place, you have one set of weapons selling for around 50k on AH, and another that needs to be restored for hundreds of thousands of ADs and after that marks still need to be extensively farmed so that set becomes better than the chultan one (because lvl 60 chultan or lvl 59 SKT set it's praticly the same). I know the relation effort/reward needs to behave exponentially and not linearly but this case is a bit of an extreme case.
1.) Will not share the AD gain systems players from this end utilize, doing so will devalue those efforts.
2.) Not all bots have all the content in the RQ system scripted. Those that do, the RQ system will seemingly force bots into longer content where legitimate players would have a "better" opportunity to vote kick them.
3.) Don't know how much AD you will make. Even if it is less it is the choice of the players to manual queue, RQ and or utilize other parts of the game for AD. Players want the bonus RAD so the RQ will incline them to participate > help queues pop faster > help lower level players.
4.) Epic dungeons are not the only RQ available. Lower level content will more than likely see a substantial decrease in queue time due to players seeking quick bonus RAD. As far as epic RQ, often enough players run epic and higher content with a private group though the RQ system and Mod 12b allowing players to level and access higher ilvl equipment without with less RNG will also allow for more players to be in the ilvl range for epic RQ. If lower content queues pop faster than higher level content that doesn't necessarily make the system bad.
Often enough people on the forums take statements of others and try to break them down to the where they will appear untrue and or overlook information that damages their own argument(s).
@tntslayer1 mastercraft is an investment, unfortunately a number of people do not wish to invest in leveling and or purchasing the equipment.
@wisper2048 normal dungeons and skirmishes will grant AD through the RQ system, even those alone offers a considerable amount of RAD > AD.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
The numbers we're starting with might not be high enough, but we'll definitely be monitoring things. The cultural shift won't happen overnight, but the incentives have to be there for it to happen at all. There will always be speed runs. We don't have a goal of getting rid of them, because this is impossible. Players will obviously want to get rewards as fast as they can. That being said, we obviously want to change the status quo in a few ways: 1) We'd like the activity with the fastest time/reward ratio to not be doing the exact same thing over and over. 2) We'd like to have a world where if you are doing things with a pick up group and things don't look like they're going as fast as you'd like, it's usually better to stick with it as opposed to dropping and trying again. 3) We'd like to decrease the time delta between groups a bit, both by making the average group a little faster and bringing the top end closer to the average.
Random queues primarily addresses 1 and things like new player bonus and restrictions on kicking and leaver penalty are meant to address 2. 3 is something we are constantly trying to address with PvE adjustments, but we won't be reaching our goal there in the immediate future.
But in terms of speed runs, even with random queues, players will naturally want to complete the dungeon they end up in as quickly as possible, and that's fine. Hopefully it just won't be the same dungeon every time. In terms of running full speed through content and having very little danger thanks to the overwhelming power of buffs and debuffs, yes this is something I've addressed a little and it's something we are definitely looking into. I wasn't talking about weapons at all, I was talking about armor—I apologize, I wasn't very clear because I was responding directly to a comment about the seal store, which only has armor. No adjustments will be made to weapons. If you don't want to invest in something above the crafted Chultan weapons, that's okay. Those weapons are there as a catch up and alt-friendly weapon set.
Naturally, we'll be introducing newer stronger weapons at some point. (Though not with Module 12B.)
Notice that you separated to 3 groups:
1. AFK farmers.
2. Bots
3. Abusers - players manually running the easiest content for RAD
And separated AFK from the abusers. By using commas - list separator, and putting bots between. So don't play games now.
To your responses:
1. Interesting that there are generation sources other than salvage and rAD dungeon bonus (+weeklies). So either it's an exploit, then you should report it and stop using it, or you don't understand the difference between AD changing hands (which is not relevant) and AD generated into the system (inflation, the only relevant to this discussion). In any case something that is unknown is akin to not exist anyway, as the general population can't use it so we back to dungeons as the AD source in the game (including the salvage + the relevant bonuses from invokes and what not. And I'll stop mentioning the weeklies..).
2. Bots can run by themselves, nor you can separate a new player from a bad bot. Often the bot will be better. And with the same level of communicability. It's not the place nor the topic, nor I want to condone such behavior, but a simple google is worth more than my thousand words. And if one bot will fail, another better one, will replace it, that's a plague that can't be simply cured.
3. How much I'll make is irrelevant, the measurement is how much is possible to do. And we measure in AD/time. Your answer is irrelevant to the question, and it was a very very simple question. Here for your convenience: "Comparing to 2xeToS, for 15min per char. Will I make more or less ? AD/time."
4. Yes, and I've referred to leveling dungeons in several posts. Leveling dungeons pop right now and don't have any tank, healer requirements. While public queue for msva, sp, etc.. will not pop in a timly fashion for dps. So your answer that leveling dungeon will pop is nice, but not relevant to the main issue. Also Private queue has lower gear requirements than RQ, so the argument that it will allow access is not correct. In addition "higher ilvl equipment without with less RNG" is exactly the opposite of the essence of RQ ! I think you forgot that the "R" in "RQ" means "Random".
Someone who is gear progressing, needs specific dungeons, and not random queue. Random queue is meant for geared players farming AD to indirectly carry/fill party for those who need the specific gear from dungeons and PubQ them.
Often enough on the forums people tend to ignore very simple questions by writing entire walls of text but not giving a straight and direct answer. Often same people try to shift blame when confronted with inaccuracies or, I hope not, lies in their posts.
So lets try again so there wont be confusion:
1. What are the plenty of ways to generate AD ? There are plenty no? I'm sure you are willing to share a small number, especially to help the poor masses. Lets focus on ways that are available to new players and/or with limited time. And please don't suggest ViP on multiple accounts - bannable, not generating AD. AH trading - long term, not new players, not generating AD. GM/MW resources - long term, must utilize events, not for new players, takes guild, not generating AD.
2. Bots, I trust in your google abilities. Or you can trust my technical affinity when I say it wont matter.
3. AD/time. simple. More or less with new system ?
4. Will RQ solve the queue problem, I'll quote my original question:
"Will RQ solve the stated problem of queue pop in a timely fashion? Please consider here, if people will be inclined to gamble on FBI/SP without a premade or not, especially on less geared alts."
I think it's quite clear that I don't refer to leveling dungeons, which have no relevance to players progress in the game (except now as primary AD source).
I have significantly less issue with the concept of RQ than with people that try to hide it's downsides instead of tackling them head on and trying to suggest something constructive on how to solve the issues. Sugar coating is the first step towards failure and antagonizing people who don't simply follow the candy to the tinted van.
I'm personally not as effected by this, I don't need as much AD to 'progress', nor I play as much as before.
But I sincerely hope it will work out, because right now, I see people discouraged by the notion of repeated leveling dungeons. Hopefully the added reward in SP and the account unlock will counter that.
IMO, it's still worth considering the separation of FBI and SP in some manner, or providing a RQ specific reward for it. For example added 2k (once a day) if you got SP / FBI. similar to how the single total RQ bonus works.
(Just an idea)
And the quality of these alts been dropping fast. See so many HR and CW alts now that just stand back and pew pew away, no encounters. There this one HR with a t.lightening who is always dead last paingiver by far, even worst than the other trashy alts. Obviously this guy is using a spare trans enchant to hit the iLvl number to get in for the RAD, and not too interested in playing the toon for real. I'm getting tired of having to carry these people.
Doing the leveling dungeons will be a snoozer. But at least it will be fast. I will even use the epic queue. But if I get FBI/mSP, I'm leaving to do something else, like weeklies and chult dailies. I still haven't unlock ToNG since I've been too busy going through the eTos/eGWD grinders.
This both allows to keep the runs and the overhead to a minimal time.
Sadly, since private queue went live, seems most of these people just solo queue instead of waiting in the DPS line. Which is good because my DPS wait is much shorter now, but bad because now I'm doing most of the carrying since its too hard to solo it myself. Which is why I don't mind the RQ change. I'll reserve my full judgement till I give it whirl a few times.
Was that fun? Did you think it was an entertaining way to spend your time? Did you even have to *slow down* on any of the monsters?
Can you at least acknowledge that you're gating most of the daily AD behind content that's way too easy to be fun, for anyone?
yes or no?
All the new changes of Mod12b seem like a way to 'fix' salvage runs, but the way you're implementing it is upside-down, salvage runs started because it became really hard to get what you want from any particular dungeon, so everyone runs a ton of stuff to compensate, because that eventually will get you enough AD to buy the stuff, so it makes perfect sense that we will be running the fastest dungeons. I don't play those because they're super fun or exciting! Lol.
I'm sorry if I'm getting annoying with my reward issue, but please take a deep look at the chests we're getting and just add some real value, anything, unique rewards for each dungeon, unbound transmutes, Wards, idk, stuff that makes us really put some effort in finishing the dungeon no-matter-what, isn't that what you're aiming for? Plz!!
The thing is, fixed costs from NPCs and UI interactions (companion upgrade, for example) and other prices set by Cryptic (AD cost attached to crafting tasks for reinforcements/jewels) are the very things that we have little if any ability to offset or eliminate completely by the ancient art of being patient.
You don't ever need to buy RP if you don't feel the need to rank up all your stuff ARGH I NEED IT MAXED RIGHT NOW. Same thing with waiting for the lockbox rotation to bring in the artifact/arti equipment/weapon or armor enchant/etc. your little heart desires and buy during a key sale. Anything you're planning to buy from other players, you can be very money-grubbing about. Sure, they get some of your hard-earned AD, but you can take steps to make sure it's as little of your AD as possible.
Costs set by Cryptic, you mostly have the choice of paying in full, or opting out of those systems altogether.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Though it would still depend on party compositions. If the manual EToS queue was full of DPS and not enough supports, the supports would be shunted over to fill groups for them.
I'm still side-eyeing the idea that support players are basically expected to be glorified babysitters who exist for purposes of ensuring that mediocre DPS players can get into anything they want.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
The only relevant participants for this are PubQ and RQ people, the private queue completly bypass the match-making algoritem and just opens an instance. So for example (I'll limit this to dungeon only for simplicity):
Group A of 1: DPS PubQ for eToS
Group B of 2: DC, DPS PubQ for FBI
Group C of 3: DPS, DPS, DPS RQ
Group D of 2: DPS, DPS PubQ for eToS
Group E of 1: DC RQ
Group F of 5: Healdin, Tankdin, 3 DPS RQ
Group G of 2: Tank, DPS RQ
Group H of 4: DC, Tank, 2 DPS RQ
Group I of 2: Tank GF, DPS GF, oh wait they can't, they go to /lfg
Group J of 2: DC, Tank RQ
Group K of 1: DPS RQ
Group L of 2: Tank, DPS RQ
The simplest implementation is to brute force shuffle all the possible combinations (discarding those that do not meet the 1 Tank, 1 Heals, 3 DPS, and max of 5 restriction - and with the restriction that you can't separate groups) And assigning a score based on how many of the PubQ got grouped (perhaps a combined score of total satisfaction and pubQ). With perhaps additional weight given to queue times to prioritize people who wait long even if the total combination is not optimal.
So we get something like:
Group F -> Random fallback, they will get something random.
Groups A + H -> eToS
Groups G + E + D -> eToS
Groups J + C -> Random fallback, and that's not optimal because they could have done J + B + K for FBI, but there is no wildcard, so 2 DC are not allowed. Group I could have solved that too.
Group B+ K + L -> FBI
In this case if the waiting time of group B outweighed the maximum matching, we could have match Group B + G + K -> FBI
Before L queued.
(All that excluding mistakes I could have made)
We can see 2 main issues and both related, as fine graining the roles.
1. The Player roles should be more fine grained.
2. The queue requirements should be more fine grained and more flexible.
What that means is that, the players should be able to mark by themselves what they are capable of joining as (with some defaults)
For example if we have 4 check-boxes (not mutually exclusive) where we check roles:
Tank, Healer, Support (buff/debuff), DPS
A TR,GWF for example will check DPS.
A CW, can check DPS and/or Support depending on their capability and load-outs (MoF / SS)
Someone who plays healdin and not tankdin will select Healer.
Someone who has loadouts for both and comfortable doing both can select "Tank" & "Healer"
etc...
At the same time the queue requirements can be both more flexible, tiered and timed.
In that I mean that
eToS can be: 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 1 DPS, Any, Any
FBI: 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 DPS, support / DPS, support / DPS
And for example after a queue period of for example 10 minutes where there are people waiting for FBI, it could be relaxed to:
1 tank, 1 healer, 1 DPS, support / DPS, any