Unfortunately the headline of the thread is sensationalized BS. Warlocks overall did not have their DPS cut by 50% and the class was not completely broken. While those who use the owlbear cub are impacted, it is not a class wide problem. When you put a sensationalized title like that, any serious person will discount you for a whiney mamby pamby.
Be more specific in your issue and don't be sensational if you want to get their attention.
***edit** Maybe a more specific headline like:
"Were Owlbear Cub Changes Intended to Decrease Templock DPS by up to 50%?"
I wasn't going to post again, then i saw your post, i thought i'ld give a detailed answer, then i just decided that this should be my response:-
You're wrong.
He really isn't, though. And another responder yelled at him for insulting people, which he isn't.
Is this a real problem? Yes. He doesn't dispute that. He's disputing both the 50% number and applying it globally and equally to all warlocks.
His entire point appears to be, "When you exaggerate the problem, you are less likely to be taken seriously or given an official response." And he's 100% correct.
This change affects (as far as we can tell so far) three warlock powers which previously procced OBC on every tick.
The last official statement regarding the OBC occurred the last time they nerfed OBC multiprocs, and stated rather plainly that they were aware that there were still a handful of powers which could multi-proc it and that those interactions would likely be adjusted in the future. In the time since, discussions around whether or not the OBC was BiS for HB almost universally contained arguments between people saying not to spend your money that way because it WAS going to get nerfed, and people (like me, frequently) saying, "It may or may not, but until it does it's BiS. No one can say certainly one way or the other or tell you how to react to the known risk."
So...now that nerf is coming (unless this is just a bug on the preview server, which is possible but unlikely). OBC is probably still BiS for HB SWs, even with fewer ticks, just by a less ludicrous degree.
It's probably possible to construct a high-power temptation build using BoVA/DT/PoP that loses 50% of its damage from this nerf.
It's also possible to construct a high-crit temptation build using KF/FB/PoP that loses somewhere around 20% of its damage from this nerf.
The average HB Fury SW using KF/FB/PoP looks to be estimating losses closer to 10%.
That is still a big problem, because SWs as a whole are already not in the best spot DPS-wise, and losing 10-20% will make that even more obvious, but this headline is inaccurate, and that's probably (part of) why there's no dev responses here.
Yes, this necessitates taking a look at adjusting SW damage. Yes, this largely renders low-crit builds obsolete (they were already eventually falling behind at 13-14k). Yes, this hits HB Templocks the hardest. Yes, hard sometimes to not feel insulted by Devs completely ignoring all of the SW state-of-class questions that 1) scrolled past during the last Dev livestream, 2) were posed during the reddit AMA, and 3) exist on these forums. The optimistic side of me feels like maybe they're working on something but it's not ready for our eyes yet. Even if that's not the case, lying about how drastically something negative hurts us doesn't help our cause.
Ok then, i'll make it simple. I am not willing to play a broken class for the next 6 months, in the hope that i will eventually hit 14-15k ilevel to build a 100% crit and 150% crit severity build. Because that's the only other option right now.
For everyone under that number, OBC makes up a huge (easily 50% depending on ilevel) part of the damage and heals. or run a pretty useless SW.
Show me a SW build with say 12k ilevel without OBC that can hold it's own against other similar class levels and ill happily switch.
In the sum you are right, but as nirafelos said, the nerf is no surprise. We are not top damage and drop off vs most other striker in this game, tbh could be we are bottomline.
Fury needs buffs in damage and temptation needs better supportskills to contest vs classes like DC/OP etc. I think PoP as a 18% dmagebuff in static fights is quite good ... but against a dps GF we are inferior in most aspect. ITF, Mark , Crushing Pin is hard to beat by a lock, on top that GF deals more focus damage than a warlock does (yes he does!), not to talk of GWF and Hunter. I am pretty much pissed that the current meta is a composition of 2 tanks and 2 DC´s + 1 dps in this game. Those mega buffs reign in NWO since long, combined with powersharing from DC/OP they just let some classes drop off pretty much, SW is one of them.
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pyrosorcererMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 137Arc User
Just waiting for the unbind token so I can park my sw main for good and try some class that the devs actually like. . . If the unbind token comes. . .
@kreatyve@nitocris83 we need the devs to address what they brought upon SW as it got overnerfed, this thread needs dev responses and actions regarding the state of the class.
The changes to OBC with no compensation, much like it happened with other powers, do significantly affect SW dps (in a negative way if course), in this case, the paragon path meant to have greater aoe dps capacity (Hellbringer) gets nerfed hard. On live, HB already gets beaten by several other classes in aoe damage and this change has the potential to make HB SW stand absolutely no chance vs Justice protection paladin, conqueror GF and I wouldn't be surprised if HDPS RiDo could beat it as well or at the very least give it a run for its meal and hey, they are support classes. If a pure striker class taking the "best" dps route deals less damage than a support class specced with its dps tree then there's a serious balance issue there. Scourge Warlock does need a serious rework so it can be competitive again, it is totally overnerfed at the moment and this OBC change with no compensation further worsens that.
This change with no compensation whatsoever effectively makes HB SW "dps" a liability for the team, not only weaker than striker classes but support ones as well, that is unacceptable.
We as community expect the devs to do something about this and to let us know how it will be done.
It is worth noting it is unacceptable that to this day we haven't got any dev/community manager response whatsoever, devs should work towards the balacing of the Scourge Warlock class which arguably is the one in worst state at the moment.
It would not take much to make SW strong. Look at the changes to GF base damage with mod 6, it is just stupid OP now. The same thing should be done to SW base damage.
@defiantone99 I think that, as a class with ultra long dots (with their ticks being laughably underpowered), awfully long casting times and cooldowns, a substantial base damage needs to be complemented with a very complex powers and mechanics rework otherwise SW will continue to lag behind, it probably is the dps class that scales the worst at max gear level.
You idea of the weapon damage definitely is a must do if SW is to have any chance to regain its ability to deal dps that actually competes with that of other dps classes and beats that of support ones.
I think that, at BiS, it is acceptable that any class can hit like a truck but what blows my mind is how devs continue to nerf SW to the point it has lower damage per second than support ones or, if you will, more buff-capable ones.
SW, a striker class with lower party utility than OP/GF/DC, should have much much higher damage output than them.
Ok then, i'll make it simple. I am not willing to play a broken class for the next 6 months, in the hope that i will eventually hit 14-15k ilevel to build a 100% crit and 150% crit severity build. Because that's the only other option right now.
For everyone under that number, OBC makes up a huge (easily 50% depending on ilevel) part of the damage and heals. or run a pretty useless SW.
Show me a SW build with say 12k ilevel without OBC that can hold it's own against other similar class levels and ill happily switch.
Why are you making ultimatums to me? I'm not arguing with you.
I'm arguing with using hyperbole when facts would suffice.
Fact: SW dps was already requiring way more effort for less return than CW, HR, GF, and GWF dps. Honestly even skilled TRs were already generally beating SWs of equal skill level. Fact: The average skill level of a random player of any class is absolutely terrible. This makes it actually much harder to actually determine where class balance is the issue, and where skill floors/ceilings are misaligned. Skill floors and skill ceilings are still an important thing to balance, but are often way more complicated. On my 13k templock i'd say I have a 50% record of beating other DPS classes within 2000 il above me. That trend started literally at 7k the day I hit 70 with him. I'm not saying you're bad, I'm saying that other bad players losing to warlocks dilute whatever data they can collect about where warlocks need improvement. Fact: This nerf has been verified by zero devs as intentional. Fact: The build on preview is in no way final (yet). Fact: when @asterdahl made the last round of OBC changes, he said he wasn't done making OBC changes. Fact: While devastating to many SWs of many item levels and many builds, reaching a 50% loss requires selecting Hellbringer, selecting all three of the powers affected by this nerf as your encounter powers (bonus fact: BoVA is almost indisputably, unforgivably awful. OBC can cover for until maaaaaaybe 11-12k, but honestly, outside of letting Sharandar trash mobs die on it, it has no use on your bar. All those squishy minions that die to BoVA in 4-5 seconds? They also die to one Fiery Bolt crit.), being temptation, and focusing solely on power. Fact: For so long as the OBC procs on every tick of DT, BoVA, and PoP, Cryptic is utterly unable to buff those powers as part of reworking SWs to make them more competitive. Yeah, I agree, any change to the OBC interaction should have been made simultaneously to SW buffs, but for all we know this was an internal proof of concept change meant as part of a larger set of SW adjustments that erroneously got merged onto the preview server.
Hyperbole: "Scourge Warlock DPS reduced by 50% on preview server" Really easy adjustment to make that a fact instead: Honestly I can't beat @onodrain 's recommendation of "Were Owlbear Cub Changes Intended to Decrease Templock DPS by up to 50%?"
It in no way diminishes the urgency or severity of the problem to be honest about it.
This is HAMSTER. No one is saying it isn't. Arguing amongst ourselves is kind of pointless. I'm just trying to help you communicate better, so that your valid concerns won't be ignored.
Sorry if i came over argumentative, it wasn't meant that way. It wasn't an ultimatum either, it is actually a genuine question, does anyone have a build at 12k that would make SW viable (considering the OBC nerf)? i care not a jot about OBC nerf, it was only 900k AD. I do however care about all the time and money put into the rest of the build (artifacts, gear, companions, which are all now character locked).
To be clear, i'm not interested in how well i do against other SW's. I don't care about finishing top of the pain giver. I do very much care about being useful and being wanted in runs.
I have seen SW perform wonderfully in both Mod 4 and 5. I would get Paingiver with blue gear. I watched as SWs soloed and face-tanked Tiamat heads and well dragons with ease. In Mod 6 it required the Fabled set and bugs, which needed to be fixed, but with compensation. The key to fixing the SW is to find what they did in Mod 6 that made SW weak without the bugs. The removal of TT for me was when I just gave up even rebuilding my SW. https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/552479/official-feedback-thread-scourge-warlock-cap-raise
What's worse is that devs may not be done nerfing SW yet
> @jaime4312#3760 said: > I have seen SW perform wonderfully in both Mod 4 and 5. I would get Paingiver with blue gear. I watched as SWs soloed and face-tanked Tiamat heads and well dragons with ease. In Mod 6 it required the Fabled set and bugs, which needed to be fixed, but with compensation. The key to fixing the SW is to find what they did in Mod 6 that made SW weak without the bugs. The removal of TT for me was when I just gave up even rebuilding my SW. https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/552479/official-feedback-thread-scourge-warlock-cap-raise > > What's worse is that devs may not be done nerfing SW yet
O.O
What is left to nerf? Seriously we have absolutely nothing going for us anymore.
> I have seen SW perform wonderfully in both Mod 4 and 5. I would get Paingiver with blue gear. I watched as SWs soloed and face-tanked Tiamat heads and well dragons with ease. In Mod 6 it required the Fabled set and bugs, which needed to be fixed, but with compensation. The key to fixing the SW is to find what they did in Mod 6 that made SW weak without the bugs. The removal of TT for me was when I just gave up even rebuilding my SW. https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/552479/official-feedback-thread-scourge-warlock-cap-raise
>
> What's worse is that devs may not be done nerfing SW yet
O.O
What is left to nerf? Seriously we have absolutely nothing going for us anymore.
Caveat: I've never played GWF, so these are outside observations, as a HR, that may be inaccurate. Please correct me where I am wrong.
GWF absolutely beats HR on either ST or AoE, but has to pick one to excel at at any given time, which often includes switching class features, an encounter power, maybe an at-will, and optimally even a weapon enchant. It doesn't necessitate swapping loadouts (i don't think?), because they only appear to have one endgame viable PP and feat path.
GWF is also generally accepted to be....kind of boring to play. GWF doesn't have very many buttons to press very frequently, but has to watch their buff bar and manage cooldowns and procs and self buffs in order to maximize their output with at-wills and IBS.
HRs best spammable at-will for single-target, and most of their optimal ST encounter powers happen to be AoE anyway, so even if a HR remains "fully specced for ST", they will beat a ST-focused GWF on AoE. Combat HR *can* choose to use lightning for AoE and switch back to Vorpal for ST, but for whatever reason that's way less common than GWFs enchant-swapping between Lightning and [pick one: Vorpal/Holy/Terror/Fey]. If a HR does want to swap between SW and PF loadouts (which is only even sort of necessary for combat HRs, trapper gains no benefit from SW) to switch from AoE to ST dps, that's easy to do now.
HR is (in my opinion) an absolute joy to play. If HRs had Shadow Slip, I'd return to only having one main. I do have my complaints about the class (largely that Pathfinder is a complete garbage paragon path propped up by its overpowered melee at-will), but very few things in this game are more thrilling than playing SW Combat, IMO -- and even if you disagree on that, Trapper exists and is equally viable.
edit: I also tossed a thread about this issue on the bug report forum, since there's still been no indication from a dev that this was an intentional change. So we'll see what if anything happens, I guess.
It's arguable if GWFs or HRs are better. To be completely honest, even as a pretty good little GWF, methinks HRs are superior. Just generally more versatile. They can buff, they can DPS, they can do a lotta different HAMSTER. GWFs can just left click. Maybe right click a few times. I don't mind, but meh.
Anyways, back to topic. Devs just won't respond here. Because this isn't an "official thread". They just don't give one gram of creamy baby excrement about what people are talking about. All they can do is delete lines of code and maybe change one value in them, apparently. And keep in mind, not only are SWs getting nerfed here, but bondings too. Add the fact that TRs aren't in a much better position either, and you have 2 potentially dead DPS classes, trying to queue for a dungeon that requires just that - DPS. Which they can't bring. So tell me @nitocris83@noworries#8859 - what ARE they supposed to do? What are they supposed to replace DPS with?
It's arguable if GWFs or HRs are better. To be completely honest, even as a pretty good little GWF, methinks HRs are superior. Just generally more versatile. They can buff, they can DPS, they can do a lotta different HAMSTER. GWFs can just left click. Maybe right click a few times. I don't mind, but meh.
Anyways, back to topic. Devs just won't respond here. Because this isn't an "official thread". They just don't give one gram of creamy baby excrement about what people are talking about. All they can do is delete lines of code and maybe change one value in them, apparently. And keep in mind, not only are SWs getting nerfed here, but bondings too. Add the fact that TRs aren't in a much better position either, and you have 2 potentially dead DPS classes, trying to queue for a dungeon that requires just that - DPS. Which they can't bring. So tell me @nitocris83@noworries#8859 - what ARE they supposed to do? What are they supposed to replace DPS with?
You can make it official, heck u can make hundreds of official threads that SW sucks. yet it will change nothing. During QA devs event within Reddit. There where lot of questions related toward SW, and all of them where ignored.
So more less, enough to waste time. @nitocris83, mimicking and others where mentioned here lot of times. And each time they got @< they get notifications, and only blind ones would not notice it. So staff stance toward SW is clear.
Not only they don't bother to bring theorycrafting thread, where they could talk with players how and which changes would improve SW, they simply ignore whole SW population.
Heck one easy thing how devs could lift SW dmg output by default..
Bring back old Flame Of empowerment Class feat< In past FoE gave 8% dmg increase, + offhand feat 3% + feat(gatekeepers empowerment) extra 5%<. means over all 16%< dmg output increase, not for single target, but for increase over all.
Next, SW main stat is CHA< which increase companions influence + Crit + CA<. We have NoPity,NoMercy class feat which > if u land crit boost gives CA for moment.
Now just think? Why devs can't boost up base CA for SW? CA gives extra dmg increase, so for devs would be enough to play around which SW's CA stats, give slightly higher CA increase from CHA and so one.
This combo is just one of easy/simple and cheap dmg increasing stuffs.
And his is what SW need, not one x powers buff, but over all dmg increase,
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
It's arguable if GWFs or HRs are better. To be completely honest, even as a pretty good little GWF, methinks HRs are superior. Just generally more versatile. They can buff, they can DPS, they can do a lotta different HAMSTER. GWFs can just left click. Maybe right click a few times. I don't mind, but meh.
GWF are undoubtedly the king of DPS at the moment, but I agree completely that HRs are much more fun to play. My GWF was retired long ago, where as my HR is played daily.
Anyways, back to topic. Devs just won't respond here. Because this isn't an "official thread". They just don't give one gram of creamy baby excrement about what people are talking about. All they can do is delete lines of code and maybe change one value in them, apparently. And keep in mind, not only are SWs getting nerfed here, but bondings too. Add the fact that TRs aren't in a much better position either, and you have 2 potentially dead DPS classes, trying to queue for a dungeon that requires just that - DPS. Which they can't bring. So tell me @nitocris83@noworries#8859 - what ARE they supposed to do? What are they supposed to replace DPS with?
TR has been due for a re-work for some time now. The Devs even said that the TR would be the next class to get a detailed "adjustment". That was prior to Mod 12 ... then at the announcement for mod 12 the Devs said on one of the livestreams that the class reworks were on hold because the Devs working them had been pulled to go work on the new Magic:The Gathering game. I suspect the reason no answer has been forthcoming from the Developers is simple: They know SWs need some work to balance them relative to other classes, but they also have no idea when (or if) anyone will actually be assigned the task.
Combat Advantage increases damage dealt by basic attacks by 15% and is increased by Combat Advantage Bonus Rating.
Combat advantage bonus increase - [Lantern of Revelation], [Kessell's Spheres of Annihilation]. also companions and so one..
When warlock cast Pillar of Power on ground or use BoVa . enemies got hit from multiple sides(aoe) which enable CA mechanic. Also when u fight technically/tactically you also enable CA, when 2 or more party members hit enemy/boss u all enabling CA too.
TR has been due for a re-work for some time now. The Devs even said that the TR would be the next class to get a detailed "adjustment". That was prior to Mod 12 ... then at the announcement for mod 12 the Devs said on one of the livestreams that the class reworks were on hold because the Devs working them had been pulled to go work on the new Magic:The Gathering game. I suspect the reason no answer has been forthcoming from the Developers is simple: They know SWs need some work to balance them relative to other classes, but they also have no idea when (or if) anyone will actually be assigned the task.
For them(dev staff) firstly would be better talk with players, than start reworking.. Firstly need to hear out whats bad, what can be done and what can't be done. Firstly gather players feedback, then do stuffs..
And talking/having conversation with warlock players do not take long time.. make 1 thread. To start gathering feedbacks, ideas. And after 1 month(you read it correctly) after month of gathered data start to work with it.
In all my known MMORPG games, developers firstly gather feedbacks, study reasons, then check suggestions, then build own suggestions. Then start work. When engineer build house, firstly he make plans. Then execute them. not opposite..
But what I see is, nothing. < No conversation, nothing. Even that thread creation, and maybe posting some replays would take ~5min per 2 days. Shorter time than boil watter for coffee/tea.
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Combat Advantage increases damage dealt by basic attacks by 15% and is increased by Combat Advantage Bonus Rating.
Combat advantage bonus increase - [Lantern of Revelation], [Kessell's Spheres of Annihilation]. also companions and so one..
When warlock cast Pillar of Power on ground or use BoVa . enemies got hit from multiple sides(aoe) which enable CA mechanic. Also when u fight technically/tactically you also enable CA, when 2 or more party members hit enemy/boss u all enabling CA too.
Honestly I'd have the flat damage boost from CON rather than CA damage boost from CHA. Specially as a soul binder.
Honestly I'd have the flat damage boost from CON rather than CA damage boost from CHA. Specially as a soul binder.
sorry, seems I put (< ) in bad place and part of my post got hidden.
Now lets see CON = 1% Damage bonus, 2% Hit Points, And due feat, Blood Pact of Cania - Increases the amount of bonus damage Constitution gives you by 1/2/3/4/5%..
So here is your source of flat dmg increase.
Sure if u have higher than 25 CON it's best way to go. And for burst or single power relaying builds is most common build.
However, need to remind, that even Sb build around CON + Blood Pact of Cania. Can utilize CA. Heck all classes do that.
Now the CA problem is simple. When you play solo Hb more easier get CA due PoP. But I knew dozen SB'S who could utilize CA too, even they where same build as yours. All it need to play more technically/tactically.
When you play in party with 2 or more players. then u don't bother with CA, you enable it anyways. So as you can see, there is no reason not to boost up CHA provided values. either SB or HB, build around CHA or CON u get dmg increase.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
well they will do fix, rework. Just matter of time.. And thats maybe will happens in mod 28. So till it come u can watch gif and relax. mod 28 will be soon.. Faster then never. yet slightly latter than next year.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
But the thing is, my CW has a 31 int for 21% damage bonus with another +5% bonus from int in feats. Where as my warlock only has a 27 con for 17% damage bonus and I can't make full use of Blood Pact of Cania with only 2 points put into it.
I could get my cw up to 33 if i switched out my valindra neck for the company raider clock for 23% damage bonus.
Can I do that with my warlock? The Con belt is aimed at tanks, not dps, so I only have the +2 to CON from the demon lord set.
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andorrabellMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 437Arc User
There is now a dev post acknoweldging that they have at least heard our issue: @jaime4312#3760 I'll keep an eye out for any changes in the pre-M12b patch notes and see if the change was intentional. Regardless, your feedback about the viability of Scourge Warlocks (before and after this change) is still valid and worthwhile, whether or not this was an intended change. So thank you for calling it out.
That's some good info. I hope they fix TRs the same way, so they're actually a viable class to play. I mean, they're not bad, they do the job, but when you see a 16k TR beaten by a 14k GWF/CW/HR... gotta say, kinda sad.
But the thing is, my CW has a 31 int for 21% damage bonus with another +5% bonus from int in feats. Where as my warlock only has a 27 con for 17% damage bonus and I can't make full use of Blood Pact of Cania with only 2 points put into it.
I could get my cw up to 33 if i switched out my valindra neck for the company raider clock for 23% damage bonus.
Can I do that with my warlock? The Con belt is aimed at tanks, not dps, so I only have the +2 to CON from the demon lord set.
Personally I would like to see, that once u obtain artifact, u bring to somekind NPC and then apply ability scores depending on class..
As for company set, for moment planned use it.. But dropped, and decide to focus on lostmouth. To make my templock in middle of possible situations. Not much depending on OBC because if I land crit lostmouth will his thing, if I miss crit, OBC will do his part.
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
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jiubiizeekkMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 144Arc User
edited September 2017
This is the Acknowledgement that a Dev has given us.
@dupeks I can't speak for the team members making these changes, but given they were marked as experimental changes, I'd imagine they'd be interested in hearing continuing feedback about these changes. Thanks for adding your voice here!
@jaime4312#3760 I'll keep an eye out for any changes in the pre-M12b patch notes and see if the change was intentional. Regardless, your feedback about the viability of Scourge Warlocks (before and after this change) is still valid and worthwhile, whether or not this was an intended change. So thank you for calling it out.
"Warlocks can fill one of three roles in a group. They can dedicate themselves to the dark arts and decimate their foes, either by dealing necrotic damage and cursing foes or by summoning their soul puppet to augment their damage. Additionally Warlocks can support their allies by tearing the souls from their foes to heal and empower their allies."
So the dps is lacking but the healing a empowering from temptation is working.
"Warlocks can fill one of three roles in a group. They can dedicate themselves to the dark arts and decimate their foes, either by dealing necrotic damage and cursing foes or by summoning their soul puppet to augment their damage. Additionally Warlocks can support their allies by tearing the souls from their foes to heal and empower their allies."
So the dps is lacking but the healing a empowering from temptation is working.
Is that like...the flavor text for warlocks during the character creation process? You know that at big software companies, flavor text is almost always written by some random copywriter barely if at all related to the game design or development process at all, right? And that in dnd (and 4e even moreso!) the flavor text explicitly has no bearing on the mechanics of the game, and was almost universally misleading?
It's just a kind of bizarre thing to bring to an argument.
Also, given that temptation healing is literally dependent upon DPS, lower DPS means lower healing. And that would honestly be an acceptable route for them to take if they reworked temptation, but it would have to trade lower DPS for more consistent healing, rather than trading lower DPS for lower healing, which isn't a trade, it's just a pure loss.
Comments
We are not top damage and drop off vs most other striker in this game, tbh could be we are bottomline.
Fury needs buffs in damage and temptation needs better supportskills to contest vs classes like DC/OP etc.
I think PoP as a 18% dmagebuff in static fights is quite good ... but against a dps GF we are inferior in most aspect. ITF, Mark , Crushing Pin is hard to beat by a lock, on top that GF deals more focus damage than a warlock does (yes he does!), not to talk of GWF and Hunter.
I am pretty much pissed that the current meta is a composition of 2 tanks and 2 DC´s + 1 dps in this game.
Those mega buffs reign in NWO since long, combined with powersharing from DC/OP they just let some classes drop off pretty much, SW is one of them.
The changes to OBC with no compensation, much like it happened with other powers, do significantly affect SW dps (in a negative way if course), in this case, the paragon path meant to have greater aoe dps capacity (Hellbringer) gets nerfed hard. On live, HB already gets beaten by several other classes in aoe damage and this change has the potential to make HB SW stand absolutely no chance vs Justice protection paladin, conqueror GF and I wouldn't be surprised if HDPS RiDo could beat it as well or at the very least give it a run for its meal and hey, they are support classes. If a pure striker class taking the "best" dps route deals less damage than a support class specced with its dps tree then there's a serious balance issue there. Scourge Warlock does need a serious rework so it can be competitive again, it is totally overnerfed at the moment and this OBC change with no compensation further worsens that.
This change with no compensation whatsoever effectively makes HB SW "dps" a liability for the team, not only weaker than striker classes but support ones as well, that is unacceptable.
We as community expect the devs to do something about this and to let us know how it will be done.
It is worth noting it is unacceptable that to this day we haven't got any dev/community manager response whatsoever, devs should work towards the balacing of the Scourge Warlock class which arguably is the one in worst state at the moment.
You idea of the weapon damage definitely is a must do if SW is to have any chance to regain its ability to deal dps that actually competes with that of other dps classes and beats that of support ones.
I think that, at BiS, it is acceptable that any class can hit like a truck but what blows my mind is how devs continue to nerf SW to the point it has lower damage per second than support ones or, if you will, more buff-capable ones.
SW, a striker class with lower party utility than OP/GF/DC, should have much much higher damage output than them.
To be clear, i'm not interested in how well i do against other SW's. I don't care about finishing top of the pain giver. I do very much care about being useful and being wanted in runs.
> I have seen SW perform wonderfully in both Mod 4 and 5. I would get Paingiver with blue gear. I watched as SWs soloed and face-tanked Tiamat heads and well dragons with ease. In Mod 6 it required the Fabled set and bugs, which needed to be fixed, but with compensation. The key to fixing the SW is to find what they did in Mod 6 that made SW weak without the bugs. The removal of TT for me was when I just gave up even rebuilding my SW. https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/552479/official-feedback-thread-scourge-warlock-cap-raise
>
> What's worse is that devs may not be done nerfing SW yet
O.O
What is left to nerf? Seriously we have absolutely nothing going for us anymore.
Hr or gwf ?
From what I know hr is top dps but need suggestions.
Thx
GWF absolutely beats HR on either ST or AoE, but has to pick one to excel at at any given time, which often includes switching class features, an encounter power, maybe an at-will, and optimally even a weapon enchant. It doesn't necessitate swapping loadouts (i don't think?), because they only appear to have one endgame viable PP and feat path.
GWF is also generally accepted to be....kind of boring to play. GWF doesn't have very many buttons to press very frequently, but has to watch their buff bar and manage cooldowns and procs and self buffs in order to maximize their output with at-wills and IBS.
HRs best spammable at-will for single-target, and most of their optimal ST encounter powers happen to be AoE anyway, so even if a HR remains "fully specced for ST", they will beat a ST-focused GWF on AoE. Combat HR *can* choose to use lightning for AoE and switch back to Vorpal for ST, but for whatever reason that's way less common than GWFs enchant-swapping between Lightning and [pick one: Vorpal/Holy/Terror/Fey]. If a HR does want to swap between SW and PF loadouts (which is only even sort of necessary for combat HRs, trapper gains no benefit from SW) to switch from AoE to ST dps, that's easy to do now.
HR is (in my opinion) an absolute joy to play. If HRs had Shadow Slip, I'd return to only having one main. I do have my complaints about the class (largely that Pathfinder is a complete garbage paragon path propped up by its overpowered melee at-will), but very few things in this game are more thrilling than playing SW Combat, IMO -- and even if you disagree on that, Trapper exists and is equally viable.
edit: I also tossed a thread about this issue on the bug report forum, since there's still been no indication from a dev that this was an intentional change. So we'll see what if anything happens, I guess.
It's arguable if GWFs or HRs are better. To be completely honest, even as a pretty good little GWF, methinks HRs are superior. Just generally more versatile. They can buff, they can DPS, they can do a lotta different HAMSTER. GWFs can just left click. Maybe right click a few times. I don't mind, but meh.
Anyways, back to topic.
Devs just won't respond here. Because this isn't an "official thread". They just don't give one gram of creamy baby excrement about what people are talking about. All they can do is delete lines of code and maybe change one value in them, apparently. And keep in mind, not only are SWs getting nerfed here, but bondings too. Add the fact that TRs aren't in a much better position either, and you have 2 potentially dead DPS classes, trying to queue for a dungeon that requires just that - DPS. Which they can't bring. So tell me @nitocris83 @noworries#8859 - what ARE they supposed to do? What are they supposed to replace DPS with?
During QA devs event within Reddit. There where lot of questions related toward SW, and all of them where ignored.
So more less, enough to waste time. @nitocris83, mimicking and others where mentioned here lot of times. And each time they got @< they get notifications, and only blind ones would not notice it. So staff stance toward SW is clear.
Not only they don't bother to bring theorycrafting thread, where they could talk with players how and which changes would improve SW, they simply ignore whole SW population.
Heck one easy thing how devs could lift SW dmg output by default..
Bring back old Flame Of empowerment Class feat< In past FoE gave 8% dmg increase, + offhand feat 3% + feat(gatekeepers empowerment) extra 5%<. means over all 16%< dmg output increase, not for single target, but for increase over all.
Next, SW main stat is CHA< which increase companions influence + Crit + CA<.
We have NoPity,NoMercy class feat which > if u land crit boost gives CA for moment.
Now just think? Why devs can't boost up base CA for SW? CA gives extra dmg increase, so for devs would be enough to play around which SW's CA stats, give slightly higher CA increase from CHA and so one.
This combo is just one of easy/simple and cheap dmg increasing stuffs.
And his is what SW need, not one x powers buff, but over all dmg increase,
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
CHA = 1% Combat Advantage damage, 1% Critical Chance, 1% Companion stat bonus.
CON = 1% Damage bonus, 2% Hit Points,
And due feat, Blood Pact of Cania - Increases the amount of bonus damage Constitution gives you by 1/2/3/4/5%..
Now Combat advantage = https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Combat_Advantage
Combat advantage bonus increase - [Lantern of Revelation], [Kessell's Spheres of Annihilation]. also companions and so one..
When warlock cast Pillar of Power on ground or use BoVa . enemies got hit from multiple sides(aoe) which enable CA mechanic.
Also when u fight technically/tactically you also enable CA, when 2 or more party members hit enemy/boss u all enabling CA too.
=============== For them(dev staff) firstly would be better talk with players, than start reworking.. Firstly need to hear out whats bad, what can be done and what can't be done. Firstly gather players feedback, then do stuffs..
And talking/having conversation with warlock players do not take long time.. make 1 thread. To start gathering feedbacks, ideas. And after 1 month(you read it correctly) after month of gathered data start to work with it.
In all my known MMORPG games, developers firstly gather feedbacks, study reasons, then check suggestions, then build own suggestions. Then start work. When engineer build house, firstly he make plans. Then execute them.
not opposite..
But what I see is, nothing. < No conversation, nothing. Even that thread creation, and maybe posting some replays would take ~5min per 2 days. Shorter time than boil watter for coffee/tea.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Now lets see
CON = 1% Damage bonus, 2% Hit Points,
And due feat, Blood Pact of Cania - Increases the amount of bonus damage Constitution gives you by 1/2/3/4/5%..
So here is your source of flat dmg increase.
Sure if u have higher than 25 CON it's best way to go. And for burst or single power relaying builds is most common build.
However, need to remind, that even Sb build around CON + Blood Pact of Cania. Can utilize CA. Heck all classes do that.
Now the CA problem is simple. When you play solo Hb more easier get CA due PoP. But I knew dozen SB'S who could utilize CA too, even they where same build as yours. All it need to play more technically/tactically.
When you play in party with 2 or more players. then u don't bother with CA, you enable it anyways.
So as you can see, there is no reason not to boost up CHA provided values. either SB or HB, build around CHA or CON u get dmg increase.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Warlocks just not for DPS, be easy.
#fix/rework SW
So till it come u can watch gif and relax. mod 28 will be soon.. Faster then never. yet slightly latter than next year.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
I could get my cw up to 33 if i switched out my valindra neck for the company raider clock for 23% damage bonus.
Can I do that with my warlock? The Con belt is aimed at tanks, not dps, so I only have the +2 to CON from the demon lord set.
@jaime4312#3760
I'll keep an eye out for any changes in the pre-M12b patch notes and see if the change was intentional. Regardless, your feedback about the viability of Scourge Warlocks (before and after this change) is still valid and worthwhile, whether or not this was an intended change. So thank you for calling it out.
in this thread: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1234555/module-12b-preview-patch-notes-nw-90-20170911a-1/p1
Which doesnt mean they still won't let our class break, but at least we know they'll know what they are doing when they do it.
https://www.theholycrusaders.com/
Personally I would like to see, that once u obtain artifact, u bring to somekind NPC and then apply ability scores depending on class..
As for company set, for moment planned use it.. But dropped, and decide to focus on lostmouth. To make my templock in middle of possible situations. Not much depending on OBC because if I land crit lostmouth will his thing, if I miss crit, OBC will do his part.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
So the dps is lacking
but the healing a empowering from temptation is working.
It's just a kind of bizarre thing to bring to an argument.
Also, given that temptation healing is literally dependent upon DPS, lower DPS means lower healing. And that would honestly be an acceptable route for them to take if they reworked temptation, but it would have to trade lower DPS for more consistent healing, rather than trading lower DPS for lower healing, which isn't a trade, it's just a pure loss.