@dragonsbane3 , running any dungeon with 1 dps and all support is not an indicator of the health of a class, as my 15 month old playing a drunk naked halfling wielding a rotten banana could clear any dungeon in the game with that party.
Just my .02
Tbh running a dungeon with only one DPS is the best way to judge that class/build viability. It lets you see exactly how well it deals with AOE/Single Target. It is kind of hard to judge how well effective your AOE is if you are running with me and my buffed plant growth 1 hits a pack of mobs. In the same regard its hard to judge how well your single target is if you are running with a pimped out GWF'er and hes hitting 20-40 mill dmg IBS hits.
Saying a HR doesn't bring buffs is hilarious. A SW bringing buffs is losing DPS just as a HR bringing buffs. HR has tons of group buffs. Please step down
A trapper HR will bring Thorn ward and Longstrider since that is part of his "max dmg rotation. If they add any other buffs/debuffs they are losing more dmg than they would be adding so...
A combat PF HR will bring Thorn ward and Longstrider, how ever dropping back to apply longstrider and coming back to the group evens out so tbh they shouldn't be using LS except only on the pull and in transitioning phases IE orcus going up in the air, or when Ras Nsi does his platform tilt.
A combat SW HR only brings Longstrider and it is a DPS loss to use it other than mentioned above for the start and transitions.
Any self respecting HR will not lower their dmg to buff a group of support players when he will lose more dmg than they will do as a whole.
@dragonbane3, Perhaps if you want to go and start a post on either a GWF or an HR or even a CW and give your points as to what needs to be done on each you can find support for the things they also need to make them more team friendly . This is about the current state of the SW and after all the things that was found to be not WAI they now are at a place that they need to have an increase to the things they have that are just too weak to call them a Striker. Even our casting speed is to slow should at least be as fast as an CW. The only other casting class in the game as an example. Half the time everything is already dead before I can even finish my cast attack lol. That would at least be one good step in the correct direction. I am a HB Fury and after mod 6 gutted our primary defense of L.S. we had to wait 2 years before we was ever given another defensive ability other than the run for your life one we had. So at this point we have two defensive skills and neither of them are a dodge. So its really is about time for them to bring some striker back to this Striker class. Thank you.
The point I was trying to get across about Scourge Warlocks is that it seems they want their cake and to eat it too. HB fury brings to the current meta buffs/debuffs and respectable dmg. Sure its not over the top dmg but its balanced with its buffs/debuffs.
A HB Temploc brings the same buffs/debuffs but also brings a 20% power boost via Dark Revely and then add awesome heals and they also do respectable dmg in comparison with the support they bring.
The only thing that IMO should be adjusted would be the Soulbinder dmg output but that will be hard to do as they need to make sure not to boost Hellbringers dmg.
Any build from any class that offers group buffs/debuffs/heals/control should be no where close to a build that if only focused on pure dmg.
Look I agree with you if you are trying to compare SW vs GWF or SW vs HR it can't come close to us in pure dps. But what you have to look at is what you are bring to the table. As a GWF, whos is trying to max dmg for a run the only group buff they are bringing is Battle fury. It is ok but nothing to write home about. My SW combat build only uses Longstrider which the way my rotation works doesn't really get applied with any frequency. So GWF and SW Combat really are only bringing pure dmg to a group. Where as SW brings considerable buffs and debuffs for the whole group. It would be completely ridiculous to allow any class to bring a ton of utility to the group and make them amazing dps at the same time.
Also you can not put 2/3 dps in a group and go run FBI/MSVA/ToNG and have a fair and even comparison. There is way to many variables,.. SW is able to run as a Main dmg dealer in a 4 support group and clear ToNG,... we did it last night. I challenge any decent SW go as dmg with a GF, OP, 2DC in ToNG and tell me that you can't do it. Who cares if a GWF or HR as main dps can do 5-10 min faster per run, again we don't bring any utility to the group.
Damnationlock is dead, end of story. Needs a huge overhaul.
Templock works decently well at its intended role: It does heals well and does some nice DPS on the side., But, it's not a full DPS spec and can't be compared to the likes of GWF or HR or SS Thaum CW.
Fury is supposed to be the SW specialty, but there are some noticeable issues...
From what I know, SB Fury requires a bit of setup before its heavy hitting DoTs get going... but that's an issue in a speed burn metagame...
SB Fury is also has the issue of only being pure DPS, as unlike HB Fury, it provides no team utlity. Even some other "pure" DPS classes like GWF and Combat HR actually HAVE team utility, while having the same, if not much better damage output.
Combine that with how complicated SW is to learn, and why bother trying to do SB Fury when you can invest into GWF/Trapper or Combat HR/Thaum CW and get much better results?
HB Fury trades some potential DPS output for having less setup time and having some better team utility. This is great and all, but given the nerf to Owlbear cub, HB Fury won't be able to do the "good DPS with some team utility" as well as MoF Thaum/SS Rene or Trapper/Combat HR using Thorn Ward and Longstriders...
There is a clear reason why SWs of the caliber as @greyjay1, @flensburger99, and @tom#6998 have scrapped their SWs... and it's NOT because they refuse to git gud...
(My $0.02)
I've got no problem with them fixing bugs and evening out some things for them. What I don't want to see ever support class/builds pushing big dmg, for the simple fact that is what TR's, GWF's & HR's are designed to do. As far as Damnation being worthless,... does it matter? I mean really every class in the game has broken nonviable tress IE Archery for HR's , Protector for GFs, Faithful for DC's and oh let see them Sentinel tanks for GWF'ers. Lets be honest HB fury/temp is in a decent spot considering what they bring. Give soulbinder a little love and call it a day.
I do want to thank you for pointing out that some of the other class that claim they dont have utility in fact do have it.They just decide not to use it do to the lose of personal DPS.
I disagree with much of what I see here. I'm a fury lock and the owlbear cub accounts for approx 19% of my damage.
Killing flames is my bread and butter, not dreadtheft! Cursebite is nasty provided your not too lazy to curse your targets! I don't use all consuming curse. Sure I'll lose a bit with pillar of power but I can still bust HAMSTER up!
@dragonsban3 you can't say top hrs beat gwfs with ease because you haven't played the top, just high ilvl ones. You haven't went against wicked duck or any of the "great" greats and cannot put yourself in that position. Same goes for top hrs. Not kB, Scylla, no any of the "greats." To say that it's just an injustice. Just saying that makes it seem like the class should be nerfed when you have yet to prove it. Sorry just had to point that out. You need to get off that high horse some day. Sws really need the buffs bad. As a striker class they should be able to beat me on my dc when it's speccd for dps and they can't and yes I've done runs like that. Second their utility is least wanted of all. Hell they should at least give them back tt and fix/buff their powers. There is no reason that a 12k dps who doesn't even fully know his class should be able to beat or keep up with a 15k sw who knows what he's doing. A class should not just be gimped into support roles. Even the best of their class can't keep up with a properly played cw, hr, gwf, or even tr for that matter. Hope they get buffed soon. They really need it.
@dragonsban3 you can't say top hrs beat gwfs with ease because you haven't played the top, just high ilvl ones. You haven't went against wicked duck or any of the "great" greats and cannot put yourself in that position. Same goes for top hrs. Not kB, Scylla, no any of the "greats." To say that it's just an injustice. Just saying that makes it seem like the class should be nerfed when you have yet to prove it. Sorry just had to point that out. You need to get off that high horse some day. Sws really need the buffs bad. As a striker class they should be able to beat me on my dc when it's speccd for dps and they can't and yes I've done runs like that. Second their utility is least wanted of all. Hell they should at least give them back tt and fix/buff their powers. There is no reason that a 12k dps who doesn't even fully know his class should be able to beat or keep up with a 15k sw who knows what he's doing. A class should not just be gimped into support roles. Even the best of their class can't keep up with a properly played cw, hr, gwf, or even tr for that matter. Hope they get buffed soon. They really need it.
Drake I love ya I really do man but you have got to understand that racing with 2/3 dps in a group is the least accurate way to judge a classes or builds dmg. You and I have proved it time and time again, its to many variables with whos getting to the pack first etc etc. The only fair way to judge is run the same support group and swap out the dmg dealer and run an ACT. look at Boss encounter DPS and overall dungeon DPS not total dmg numbers. I am happy to run the groups and compare the logs.
Since I run ToNG with multiple pug groups every single day I would say that I see the numbers that HB fury and HB temp lock are putting up in there. If you rofl stomped one of them on your under geared DC, I'm calling BS that they know how to play it then. Goes to show that Ilvl doesn't = skill level. I will still stand by my opinion that if they are bringing the buffs/debuffs/heals that they do bring then they should be an easy 25-35% dps lower than we are. You can't justify giving them a overall dmg increase unless you take away the utility.
@dragonsbane3 , running any dungeon with 1 dps and all support is not an indicator of the health of a class, as my 15 month old playing a drunk naked halfling wielding a rotten banana could clear any dungeon in the game with that party.
Just my .02
Lets be honest HB fury/temp is in a decent spot considering what they bring. Give soulbinder a little love and call it a day.
@dragonsbane3 you don't know what you are talking about, you don't even play the class nor know enough about it like to comment on the state of it, you're sabotaging this thread and SW/testers feedback whether you intend to or not.
@kreatyve can you close this thread please? or at the very least remove posts from people who don't know the class therefore are writting wrong statements all over the place?
You are right on the fact that I don't play it much at all, I have ran some t1-t2 dungeons.
With previous and your latest post you've proven you don't know what you are talking about. By your logic I should be sabotaging pve TR rework/bug-related threads, filling them wrong statements simply because I have an alt TR.
I wonder how much you'll keep sabotaging this thread. @kreatyve I think it is being time this is closed.
@dragonsbane3 , running any dungeon with 1 dps and all support is not an indicator of the health of a class, as my 15 month old playing a drunk naked halfling wielding a rotten banana could clear any dungeon in the game with that party.
Just my .02
Lets be honest HB fury/temp is in a decent spot considering what they bring. Give soulbinder a little love and call it a day.
@dragonsbane3 you don't know what you are talking about, you don't even play the class nor know enough about it like to comment on the state of it, you're sabotaging this thread and SW/testers feedback whether you intend to or not.
@kreatyve can you close this thread please? or at the very least remove posts from people who don't know the class therefore are writting wrong statements all over the place?
You are right on the fact that I don't play it much at all, I have ran some t1-t2 dungeons.
With previous and your latest post you've proven you don't know what you are talking about. By your logic I should be sabotaging pve TR rework/bug-related threads, filling them wrong statements simply because I have an alt TR.
I wonder how much you'll keep sabotaging this thread. @kreatyve I think it is being time this is closed.
I understand that you don't like that others have different opinions on your favorite class. I agree'd that SB needs a boost in dmg, I just cant get behind HB being buffed to be over the top. Everyone knows how "over powered" Scourge Warlocks were when they came out and ever since they have been adjusted down farther and farther. Its not a conspiracy against them mate no matter how you try and sell it. At some point I'm sure they will get changed but the situation isn't that dire. There is room in ToNG atm for HB fury/temp loc. I run with some from the guild and from pugs almost daily. As far as I am concerned I would prefer to run with OP/ 2 DC/ Temploc and myself every run.
@dragonsbane3 their utility itself isn't even that great in comparison to a mof cw. If your running a group with an op tank 2dcs and a dps your last preferred spot isn't an sw buffer. It's most likely a mof debuff cw. If your looking for one more dps would a bis sw be a pick over a near bis cw, hr, or gwf, heavens no. The reason is simple, they are underpowered in utility and dps. When was the last time a dps sw came close to or even surpassed you? Not since their bug nerf which feels like eons ago. They shouldn't have to sacrifice utility to gain dps simply because they are sacrificing just by playing the class man, and that sucks because it's probably a class they really like to play. The only reason they are buffing in the first place is because that's their last bet on being useful to a group. I promise if their dps wasn't as bad as it is now you wouldn't see so many going the route of templock. If hrs went to buffing fulltime we would at best still beat them. I'm not even joking. You know I'm not. We just simply have good tools and they don't. Back to my original post though. It's not that hard to know who's out damaging who on a boss. What I was saying was that you can't advocate for a class and say that we beat gwfs easily when you yourself at the level you are haven't actually tested against other top top players. Yeah you might have at similar ilvls but not the ones who take their class seriously like we do. You know I'm right. We run against so many not so skilled players including gwfs that it makes it seem like we are gods. Yet you have to go searching for someone who has around the same stats as you or more that can actually give you a run for your money. I honestly think they are both about the same when both players are at the same skill level. Remember your talking to the guy that would randomly ask for races back to back and went actually searching and asking for those who were the best at their class. The whole reason I left the guild was to seek that and learn from them. Truth is there are a lot of trash players with similar gear as us so that's an unfair comparison. But back to sws. Yo devs give them some love. Hrs got it for the last few mods but now its time to fix the ones who really need it.
And here's the kicker right here. Often when I do jump into pugs it'll be an sw making the group or a tr. But you rarely see those classes being accepted into a group for a dps role. As a near bis hr I'm asked almost as soon as I get on to going into a dungeon run or msva or whatever. Those classes should be able to get that kind of love too.
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
@dragonsbane3 , running any dungeon with 1 dps and all support is not an indicator of the health of a class, as my 15 month old playing a drunk naked halfling wielding a rotten banana could clear any dungeon in the game with that party.
Just my .02
Lets be honest HB fury/temp is in a decent spot considering what they bring. Give soulbinder a little love and call it a day.
@dragonsbane3 you don't know what you are talking about, you don't even play the class nor know enough about it like to comment on the state of it, you're sabotaging this thread and SW/testers feedback whether you intend to or not.
@kreatyve can you close this thread please? or at the very least remove posts from people who don't know the class therefore are writting wrong statements all over the place?
I do not currently see a reason to close the thread. While I personally don't play SW, so I can't say that someone is right or wrong here - there are no forum rules against being wrong. Everyone has a right to their opinion. At the end of the day - the devs know what how they want a class to be. I'm sure they have seen this thread already, despite not having time to comment on it, but just to be 100% sure, I will forward it to Julia to have her personally make sure that all of the players concerns are being met. But I do not see a reason to close it at this point in time.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
I understand that you don't like that others have different opinions on your favorite class. I agree'd that SB needs a boost in dmg, I just cant get behind HB being buffed to be over the top. Everyone knows how "over powered" Scourge Warlocks were when they came out and ever since they have been adjusted down farther and farther. Its not a conspiracy against them mate no matter how you try and sell it. At some point I'm sure they will get changed but the situation isn't that dire. There is room in ToNG atm for HB fury/temp loc. I run with some from the guild and from pugs almost daily. As far as I am concerned I would prefer to run with OP/ 2 DC/ Temploc and myself every run.
So from your posts I understand that you don't play as warlock. And thats why you will never understand our position in this game. You mentioning SB, but seems you forgot that warlock have 2 paragon paths. Hellbringer and soulbinders., and rework required not 1 paragon path, but whole warlock class in general. Thats including paragon paths and paragon trees.
Sure warlock where Overpowered when it got introduced in mod 4. lot of glitches and bad power interactions happened. But same where with paladin when it got introduced.
As for not making SW overpowered, relax, warlock now is in such position that would require to boost up over all it's dps by x4 times(at least) so it could compete with actual strikers, not heal paladin or heal DC.
Yet you understand that time is running out. Longer cryptic sits and do nothing. More players start to doubt about staffs ability to handle game and migrate elsewhere.
Whats holding current players is just D&D title and more less it's story. But as watter in time breaks rocks, same goes with players, in time got and they quit.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
@dragonsbane3 their utility itself isn't even that great in comparison to a mof cw. If your running a group with an op tank 2dcs and a dps your last preferred spot isn't an sw buffer. It's most likely a mof debuff cw. If your looking for one more dps would a bis sw be a pick over a near bis cw, hr, or gwf, heavens no. The reason is simple, they are underpowered in utility and dps. When was the last time a dps sw came close to or even surpassed you? Not since their bug nerf which feels like eons ago. They shouldn't have to sacrifice utility to gain dps simply because they are sacrificing just by playing the class man, and that sucks because it's probably a class they really like to play. The only reason they are buffing in the first place is because that's their last bet on being useful to a group. I promise if their dps wasn't as bad as it is now you wouldn't see so many going the route of templock. If hrs went to buffing fulltime we would at best still beat them. I'm not even joking. You know I'm not. We just simply have good tools and they don't. Back to my original post though. It's not that hard to know who's out damaging who on a boss. What I was saying was that you can't advocate for a class and say that we beat gwfs easily when you yourself at the level you are haven't actually tested against other top top players. Yeah you might have at similar ilvls but not the ones who take their class seriously like we do. You know I'm right. We run against so many not so skilled players including gwfs that it makes it seem like we are gods. Yet you have to go searching for someone who has around the same stats as you or more that can actually give you a run for your money. I honestly think they are both about the same when both players are at the same skill level. Remember your talking to the guy that would randomly ask for races back to back and went actually searching and asking for those who were the best at their class. The whole reason I left the guild was to seek that and learn from them. Truth is there are a lot of trash players with similar gear as us so that's an unfair comparison. But back to sws. Yo devs give them some love. Hrs got it for the last few mods but now its time to fix the ones who really need it.
When you say that HB furys/templocks dont bring much support I have to disagree. Pillar of power w/power of the nine hells = debuff the bosses dmg and dmg resistance, increases our dmg and dmg resistance and lasts for 5 secs once we leave the PoP making it amazing on heavy movement fights, Hand of Blight = dmg debuff on the boss, Hadars Grasp = CC, off hand feat that also reduces Damage resistance on mobs. Now add that to the heals that Templocks brings us and +20% power and movement speed from Dark Revelry. So I'm sorry you are just wrong about their Utility now since you prefer a MoF support instead of that lets see what they bring. +3% more stats from Prestidigitation, Chill gives a 5% DR on mobs, 5% crit chance from Uncertain which is worthless since we are at crit cap, Allies gain combat advantage from Nightmare wizardy feat worthless HR's always have combat advantage. The have some of the best CC in the game.
I have ran with both in ToNG and my clear times are considerably quicker with way less deaths for the group running with SW's vs CW's As well as my encounter DPS is way higher with Templocks.
Yes there is a stigma out in the Neverwinter community about what classes should and should not be in a group and we both know that for the most part its complete BS. We both know exceptions in certain classes that seem to pull dmg out of thin air and just amazes us. If they can do it then all of those in that class should be able to do it.
@dragonsbane3 The only reason they are buffing in the first place is because that's their last bet on being useful to a group. .
That statement ^^^ is what's wrong with the community. WTF is the usefulness determined by the amount of damage you can personally do? please explain that to me. Support is equally if not more important than dps. I challenge anyone to run 1 tank 1 dc and 3 damage and clear ToNG regardless of Ilvl, good luck.
Because I don't actively play my alt in ToNG I have no clue to the issues brought up in this thread? That is a good one I guess. Ignore the fact that I cear ToNG multiple times each day, The majority of which are pug runs from the Tong/3k zerg channels with the avg Ilvl of players in the 14-15k range with a few of them being Scourge Warlocks. Ignore that I run with 2 SW's that rotate between HB fury and HB templock and one that runs Soulbinder from my guild. We talk about the state of SW's daily in TS. So yea I think I am allowed to have an opinion on the subject.
I really wish the whole community would start to understand that there is more to SW or all classes for that matter than the raw damage that they provide.
I am sorry but even templocks are bad buffers (e.g dark revelry is on base power) and the only good buff that a SW can bring is the pillar with the power of nine hells feat (so only for hellbringer). The other party buffs you mentioned earlier are pointless, especially when you read the feats or powers of other classes. You should really read again the feats. For now, the SW is a meant to be a striker class with minor buffs (only power of 9 is good) and minor cc abilities (that are very short, provided the enemy is not cc-immune..). When the toon is created, we are supposed to "decimate foes". The temptation tree is an attempt to make the SW different, but it is almost as irrelevant as the sentinel tree of the gwf: unfinished.
You know, I was one of the top dps in my former alliance, but I knew it was not the truth because I was not running with good other party members. It can apply to 3K channels as well: many people that play the game have just an average gameplay, and are not able to pull the best from their toons. Item level is just an indicator but proves nothing. As for the good players, they tend to play among them or are invited in private queue by their friends list. It is not because you talk daily of the SW state with you SW friends that you do an accurate statement. I do the same with people from my guild and we don't have the same conclusion as yours. And these people are of the kind of people that are invited in private queue instantly: they really know all end-game stuff.
To come back to the state of SW, SW don't have good feats or crazy self-buffs, and they have outdated mechanics: HP of the enemy need to be low to reach full damage, the time to wait before the DOTs reach their full potential, the awful cooldown of encounters, the terrible AOE damage.... For example, in the turtle fight in FBI, in a good group with good power share, between each interruption during boss fights , HB SWs can cast 3-4 encounters (including pillar), 1 or 2 dailies and that's over! Meanwhile, the GF will have lend a 50 million griffon and the GWF will have done his several-million buffed IBS during this 10 second frame. During this 10 second frame, the SB SW will barely do better because of the slow start of sparks generation. For both, the slow damage of DOTs can not compete when other classes do burst dps and can benefit more from power share (e.g aura of courage) or party buffs. And to be honest, I am shocked that even my average DC can do a 5 million damage with DL here, when i compare to my SW.....
To sum up, SWs are only good in long fights (it is fine for me to have a boss killer role) and can shine if the other DPSers are not good. In other cases, they are behind, not necessarly by a high margin, but still behind. In some cases, they can be litteraly crucified but I accept the fact that some situations can be better for other dps classes. Owlbear cub nerf was expected (it is not normal to depend on a pet), but it will increase the gap.
If you don't main a SW or if you don't run with excellent dpsers, it is better to back off from this discussion. Class balance is a difficult subject.
You can't say that when your main yourself is nothing but raw damage. You are just as much as part of the problem because yourself want them for only their utility nothing else. ToNG has already been done with 3 dps. They announced it in alliance yesterday as a matter of fact. Back to what I was saying. All sws don't just want to buff. They see hdps like yours and would like to be that as well but they can't because as a STRIKER class it has been gimped. Meanwhile you have people that would prefer to play the meta and this often excludes sw from that group. You say the cw feats are useless yet before the debuff change the class was able to meet debuff cap alone. Sounds way more useful to me considering. Not saying that sws aren't useful. Just saying that the cw can provide way more usually. Even when it comes to heals the 2 dcs and lifesteal would be more than enough in normal circumstances. When I would jump into ts with you guys I remember for a fact that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> would talk about how he disliked the changes.
About this ::
That statement ^^^ is what's wrong with the community. WTF is the usefulness determined by the amount of damage you can personally do? please explain that to me. Support is equally if not more important than dps.
You forget we are once rather only wanted for our support Ex: lf1m longstrider hr. Remember that? How can you say that you wish that people would realize there is more to a class than raw damage when all your seek for your self is raw dmg. We are talking about a class that was one known as a striker and all you would like to do is keep it down to using its utility. How can your be OK with hrs, the former laughing stock of the community, being buffed but not the sw which is in our former spot. I'm done for now but man this is a real issue.
You can't say that when your main yourself is nothing but raw damage. You are just as much as part of the problem because yourself want them for only their utility nothing else. ToNG has already been done with 3 dps. They announced it in alliance yesterday as a matter of fact. Back to what I was saying. All sws don't just want to buff. They see hdps like yours and would like to be that as well but they can't because as a STRIKER class it has been gimped. Meanwhile you have people that would prefer to play the meta and this often excludes sw from that group. You say the cw feats are useless yet before the debuff change the class was able to meet debuff cap alone. Sounds way more useful to me considering. Not saying that sws aren't useful. Just saying that the cw can provide way more usually. Even when it comes to heals the 2 dcs and lifesteal would be more than enough in normal circumstances. When I would jump into ts with you guys I remember for a fact that HAMSTER would talk about how he disliked the changes.
About this ::
That statement ^^^ is what's wrong with the community. WTF is the usefulness determined by the amount of damage you can personally do? please explain that to me. Support is equally if not more important than dps.
You forget we are once rather only wanted for our support
Ex: lf1m longstrider hr. Remember that? How can you say that you wish that people would realize there is more to a class than raw damage when all your seek for your self is raw dmg. We are talking about a class that was one known as a striker and all you would like to do is keep it down to using its utility. How can your be OK with hrs, the former laughing stock of the community, being buffed but not the sw which is in our former spot. I'm done for now but man this is a real issue.
You are really misunderstanding what I'm saying. What I'm trying to get across is that if a particular build is bringing utility then its dmg should be reduced to an amount as to not be overpower do to the utility they are bringing. So lets take HB Templock since it does buff/debuff/CC/heal give 20% power it should not be able to produce much dmg. On the flip side the Soulbinder if they are not bringing any utility I have no problem with them having good dmg. IMO a builds dmg output has to be balanced with what all they are bringing to the group. So the same should apply to all classes CWs' and even Trapper HRs. Trappers can debuff with Thornward, keep longstrider up 100% of the time, give massive CC all the while doing amazing dmg. IMO its dmg should be toned down.
@etelgrin according to what I was reading on the PvP threads the Devs are not happy with the dmg GF's are doing and they are looking into changing that. TBH I have no clue if they are but thats what being tossed around. GF's dmg potential IMO should be lowered as well, I know all to well the dmg GF's can pop out.
The buffs the class gives isn't even half as capable as dc, op, or cw buffs. Even the power buff is miniscule since it doesn't affect companions. Based on that, the effectiveness of the build is already reduced. Their damage is already reduced even when they're not buffing using a templock build. I'm sure daigotsu would say the same thing whenever he's on. Same goes for Natsu or fernu if he's still even playing. And trappers damage is not "amazing" when using both ls and thorn ward. Not at all cuz then you lose either pg or roots which are both major parts of your damage. And massive cc? What a couple roots for the few seconds that mobs are alive? Sounds balanced to me. Let it go man. They need the buff.
> When you say that HB furys/templocks dont bring much support I have to disagree. Pillar of power w/power of the nine hells = debuff the bosses dmg and dmg resistance, increases our dmg and dmg resistance and lasts for 5 secs once we leave the PoP making it amazing on heavy movement fights, Hand of Blight = dmg debuff on the boss, Hadars Grasp = CC, off hand feat that also reduces Damage resistance on mobs. Now add that to the heals that Templocks brings us and +20% power and movement speed from Dark Revelry. So I'm sorry you are just wrong about their Utility now since you prefer a MoF support instead of that lets see what they bring. +3% more stats from Prestidigitation, Chill gives a 5% DR on mobs, 5% crit chance from Uncertain which is worthless since we are at crit cap, Allies gain combat advantage from Nightmare wizardy feat worthless HR's always have combat advantage. The have some of the best CC in the game. > > I have ran with both in ToNG and my clear times are considerably quicker with way less deaths for the group running with SW's vs CW's As well as my encounter DPS is way higher with Templocks. > > Yes there is a stigma out in the Neverwinter community about what classes should and should not be in a group and we both know that for the most part its complete BS. We both know exceptions in certain classes that seem to pull dmg out of thin air and just amazes us. If they can do it then all of those in that class should be able to do it.
Hey there id like to clear some things up. What kinda stuff does a HB SW bring:
PoP (with PotNH): 18% dmg buff for the group +10% debuff Hand of Blight: reduces DMG BUT noone uses it and dmg reduce is not really a factor. Hadars Grasp: The debuff got removed in the Rework with that came with mod 10 so this only brings CC which in PvE atleast is a nonfactor since it sucks on groups and u cant CC bosses (there are no offhand feats for encounters btw^^). Also infernal Wrath (Fury Path) which is a 5% debuff And Dreadtheft which is a 25% debuff So in total we have 18% dps buff and 40% debuff
Now for Templock we have heals who imo have very little use in Endgame groups and we have DR which is boosting the Base Power of you and your Companion by 20% so thats about 6-8K more Power for an endgame char. Then we have a little AP gain and some dmg reduction.
All in all thats not bad as Bonus but it isnt enough to Consider HB Fury/temp a buffer since if you count in diminishing returns of debuffs (the 40% debuff is maybe 10%dps increase most of the time even less) and that they add instead of multilpy + the fact that an Endgame group is usually at above 200k Power (so the 8k power are about 4% dps increase or less) we boost the Party about the same amount a DC can boost with 1 bts (this isnt meant to hate on DCs).
Call it alot or call it not much idc but SW as a main buffer isnt good compared to the other options.
Now in terms of DPS it has alrdy been said and i can only say it again SW does enoguh dmg for all dungeons when played right but in Comparison to the other classes it falls behind and imo Cryptic should adjust that.
also @"jaime4312#3760" trying to silence ppl isnt the way to go. (and also why do u mention Unforgiven as example for dps GWFs? hes ok but nowhere near really good gwfs like Wicked) and also whats up with all these ppl claiming HR at its best is outdpsing GWF at its best
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
And trappers damage is not "amazing" when using both ls and thorn ward. Not at all cuz then you lose either pg or roots which are both major parts of your damage. And massive cc? What a couple roots for the few seconds that mobs are alive? Sounds balanced to me. Let it go man. They need the buff.
This. /10 char
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
"Tbh running a dungeon with only one DPS is the best way to judge that class/build viability."
"Since I run ToNG with multiple pug groups..."
On your first comment, that is not a good measure, because it gives you a false idea of the damage capability of whatever class you are playing. If the only reason you are doing good damage is because 4 players are buffing it, then there is a problem vs other classes that do not require that kind of level of buffs to do the same. By that reasoning, I could say TRs are in a great place because I was able to do 5 million damage with Lashing Blade. But, a GWF IBS could do 25 million under the same buffs.
Your second comment is also a poor indicator as to the health of a class because most of the people who know how to play their class well, don't pug. I do rarely pug, and it makes me feel good, being a TR, and carrying a group through. But, it is not a good indicator, as I said. It's too easy for people to make groups in their guild, their alliance, or, if they have played for a long time, their friends they have made along the way. Pugs are nice for the occasional ego boost, but something tells me you don't really need any more of that.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
You can't say that when your main yourself is nothing but raw damage. You are just as much as part of the problem because yourself want them for only their utility nothing else. ToNG has already been done with 3 dps. They announced it in alliance yesterday as a matter of fact. Back to what I was saying. All sws don't just want to buff. They see hdps like yours and would like to be that as well but they can't because as a STRIKER class it has been gimped. Meanwhile you have people that would prefer to play the meta and this often excludes sw from that group. You say the cw feats are useless yet before the debuff change the class was able to meet debuff cap alone. Sounds way more useful to me considering. Not saying that sws aren't useful. Just saying that the cw can provide way more usually. Even when it comes to heals the 2 dcs and lifesteal would be more than enough in normal circumstances. When I would jump into ts with you guys I remember for a fact that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> would talk about how he disliked the changes.
About this ::
That statement ^^^ is what's wrong with the community. WTF is the usefulness determined by the amount of damage you can personally do? please explain that to me. Support is equally if not more important than dps.
You forget we are once rather only wanted for our support Ex: lf1m longstrider hr. Remember that? How can you say that you wish that people would realize there is more to a class than raw damage when all your seek for your self is raw dmg. We are talking about a class that was one known as a striker and all you would like to do is keep it down to using its utility. How can your be OK with hrs, the former laughing stock of the community, being buffed but not the sw which is in our former spot. I'm done for now but man this is a real issue. Think about where we've been before you say that.
> > When you say that HB furys/templocks dont bring much support I have to disagree. Pillar of power w/power of the nine hells = debuff the bosses dmg and dmg resistance, increases our dmg and dmg resistance and lasts for 5 secs once we leave the PoP making it amazing on heavy movement fights, Hand of Blight = dmg debuff on the boss, Hadars Grasp = CC, off hand feat that also reduces Damage resistance on mobs. Now add that to the heals that Templocks brings us and +20% power and movement speed from Dark Revelry. So I'm sorry you are just wrong about their Utility now since you prefer a MoF support instead of that lets see what they bring. +3% more stats from Prestidigitation, Chill gives a 5% DR on mobs, 5% crit chance from Uncertain which is worthless since we are at crit cap, Allies gain combat advantage from Nightmare wizardy feat worthless HR's always have combat advantage. The have some of the best CC in the game.
> >
> > I have ran with both in ToNG and my clear times are considerably quicker with way less deaths for the group running with SW's vs CW's As well as my encounter DPS is way higher with Templocks.
> >
> > Yes there is a stigma out in the Neverwinter community about what classes should and should not be in a group and we both know that for the most part its complete BS. We both know exceptions in certain classes that seem to pull dmg out of thin air and just amazes us. If they can do it then all of those in that class should be able to do it.
>
>
> Hey there id like to clear some things up.
> What kinda stuff does a HB SW bring:
>
> PoP (with PotNH): 18% dmg buff for the group +10% debuff
> Hand of Blight: reduces DMG BUT noone uses it and dmg reduce is not really a factor.
> Hadars Grasp: The debuff got removed in the Rework with that came with mod 10 so this only brings CC which in PvE atleast is a nonfactor since it sucks on groups and u cant CC bosses (there are no offhand feats for encounters btw^^).
> Also infernal Wrath (Fury Path) which is a 5% debuff
> And Dreadtheft which is a 25% debuff
> So in total we have 18% dps buff and 40% debuff
>
> Now for Templock we have heals who imo have very little use in Endgame groups
> and we have DR which is boosting the Base Power of you and your Companion by 20% so thats about 6-8K more Power for an endgame char.
> Then we have a little AP gain and some dmg reduction.
>
> All in all thats not bad as Bonus but it isnt enough to Consider HB Fury/temp a buffer since if you count in diminishing returns of debuffs (the 40% debuff is maybe 10%dps increase most of the time even less) and that they add instead of multilpy + the fact that an Endgame group is usually at above 200k Power (so the 8k power are about 4% dps increase or less) we boost the Party about the same amount a DC can boost with 1 bts (this isnt meant to hate on DCs).
>
> Call it alot or call it not much idc but SW as a main buffer isnt good compared to the other options.
>
> Now in terms of DPS it has alrdy been said and i can only say it again SW does enoguh dmg for all dungeons when played right but in Comparison to the other classes it falls behind and imo Cryptic should adjust that.
>
> also @jaime4312#3760 trying to silence ppl isnt the way to go. (and also why do u mention Unforgiven as example for dps GWFs? hes ok but nowhere near really good gwfs like Wicked)
> and also whats up with all these ppl claiming HR at its best is outdpsing GWF at its best
There aren't a lot of good ones in my opinion. But they say that because they play against gwfs not playing at their full potential. I should not be beating a gwf with more power and ilvl and stats overall than I have. But I do. But then I hear about that one gwf and ask them to race or might just bump into one pugging. Same amount of stats or more. Completely different experience. It's as if I'm racing against time and it's fun as all get out. I asked duck about a couple of months ago and there has only been one hr who beat him. Just one. I can't remember who it was but it was one of the top and it was done in msva. Hrs can do some massive damage but when you run groups with top top players your perception changes immediately. White is black and chicken is duck roast. I think they're tied but when I ask other top hrs what they think they say gwfs are top and hrs are a second close, which might be the more objective but truthful opinion. All you have to do is ask those top players, better yet, ask them to run with you and set up a group and see for yourself. See what they can do yourself and you'll have your answer.
"Tbh running a dungeon with only one DPS is the best way to judge that class/build viability."
"Since I run ToNG with multiple pug groups..."
On your first comment, that is not a good measure, because it gives you a false idea of the damage capability of whatever class you are playing. If the only reason you are doing good damage is because 4 players are buffing it, then there is a problem vs other classes that do not require that kind of level of buffs to do the same. By that reasoning, I could say TRs are in a great place because I was able to do 5 million damage with Lashing Blade. But, a GWF IBS could do 25 million under the same buffs.
Your second comment is also a poor indicator as to the health of a class because most of the people who know how to play their class well, don't pug. I do rarely pug, and it makes me feel good, being a TR, and carrying a group through. But, it is not a good indicator, as I said. It's too easy for people to make groups in their guild, their alliance, or, if they have played for a long time, their friends they have made along the way. Pugs are nice for the occasional ego boost, but something tells me you don't really need any more of that.
Well, you have to compare apples to apples not apples to oranges correct? You shouldn't be comparing one skill to another but encounter dps vs whole dungeon dps in a static environment tbh. So lets say that I am a BIS HR with a good understanding on my skills/rotation and group synergy. On Avatar of Orcus lets say I can hit 4 mil dps with 4 support. So now you run it and lets assume the same about you and you are able to hit 3 mil dps. Then you can easily look at skills and see what if any %'s you want to adj to bring you closer to me in over all dps.
Now lets put you and I in the same group but because of the way we are designed I have 0 ramp up time for max dmg, where as you may need to line up a few skills first for you to be at max. That will make a huge difference in the whole run when trying to compare your dps output to mine. Then consider AOE vs ST. I have a build which excels at both where as you may have to have 2 separate builds 1 for each because of what you need to sacrifice to excel at either one. I just do not believe that racing against another dps in a group is a accurate way to judge one class or builds viability when the current meta in game is 4 support 1 dmg.
As far as people that know how to play there class don't pug at all or often, I find this to be the opposite atm. I am a very competitive person. I love to min/max and push my class/build as far as I can. My guild/alliance does not have any members of the same mindset. I came back to the game about 10 months ago and do not feel the need to guild hop to find a group of like minded people. Trust me when I say I have much smoother and efficient runs with 90% of the pugs I do these days with the avg item lvls in the 13.3-15k range than I do with guild/alliance runs where they are 16K+. We all know that Ilvl does not equal skill level. I find people that pug a lot play at a higher skill lvl than most others since if they do not perform well they wont get far. If I want to run 5 ToNG runs today and my avg pug is doing it in under 30 min where as the avg alliance run is at a hour. Which would you be running?
I have taken the time to painstakingly read this entire thread word for word. After sifting out the name calling, pandering, and misquoting; let’s get down to facts that few can deny.
(Before anyone makes a claim, I main a SW and have around 1500 hours on her. I run all endgame content, so I know what I’m talking about)
1) Warlock buffs don’t matter.
You can sit here all day and talk about the buffing potential of a warlock, but the fact is we are dps. When we pug, it’s expected we dps. When players are looking for players, it’s tanks(we don’t do) or buffs(which dc and ca do much better). We don’t replace DC’s in queue lists...we’re just nice Addons if we get in groups.
Unlike CW, GWF, and HR, we don’t have a massive damage tree if we don’t use our support abilities. There is no “pure damage build” for us. As many have said, we buff... but those buffs are puny at best and outshone by dc, cw, even some pally builds. What’s worse, our dps endgame is that of support classes. But unlike these support players, we are not of high demand in dungeons and are instead lumped with the damage dealers.
The whole class is confused.
2) Casting time and Dots: comparing apples to apples.
A sole dps run only tests damage output if you Time the runs. The same enemies will spawn (unless your group avoids more portals in MSP) and relatively the same damage is available to do. Wipes, mob resets, etc can affect that, but in terms of total damage, the sole dps numbers will look the relatively same.
It is, however, an accurate gauge (especially for the speed run meta we are in) to run against another dps class. I run often with a similar ilevel gwf. He obliterates most mobs before I can cast more than curses and PoP.
This has other impacts in PvE as well. Where I take time to kill a mob swarming(specifically to cast) he hits and immediately kills. When a mob in Chult comes at me, I need half a second...he swings his sword immediately. How am I to compete? More importantly, what use am I if I’m only doing 60% of his total damage and little buffing?
3)OwlBearCub matters
So what’s the point? How does this relate?
Well, I remember when the OBC revelation came upon me. I went from doing 40% of my GWF friend’s damage to 60. It narrowed the gap.
Yes, a class should not be dependent on one companion, but how many dps are dependent on archons? If a class isn’t dependent on certain items/companions/gear, why do we have BiS?
In the end, something is always best and now our best is getting (supposedly) nerfed. Yes, that’s aggravating because my time is important and I gave it to my warlock (all 1500 hours)
4) So what?
So in 6 pages of comments, I agree this thread is poorly titled. The issue isn’t the OBC nerf, it’s a lack of purpose for the warlock. We can do meager buffs, we can do massive healing (if the Damage isn’t mitigated by negation enchants, rebuffs, and dodging), and mediocre damage, yet we are still in the damage dealers classification.
So I ask the devs not to unfix OBC, but to give us a job. We may be a jack of all trades (heals, damage, buffs) but as the masters of none, we are becoming meaningless.
@johnnyreklaw#1518 So, "playing devils advocate" even if they were to boost some of your skill dmg. It wouldn't do much to make the SW a desirable class to bring since everything dies to fast for your dmg potential to come to be.
How then to make the SW a competitive class when GWF's, HR's and CW's can hit harder and faster?
@johnnyreklaw#1518 So, "playing devils advocate" even if they were to boost some of your skill dmg. It wouldn't do much to make the SW a desirable class to bring since everything dies to fast for your dmg potential to come to be.
How then to make the SW a competitive class when GWF's, HR's and CW's can hit harder and faster?
Okay imo they should reduce our casting time to be more in line with the CW's and others you speak of . Then if they would provide us with more encounters that give front in damage aka burst damage rather than tick damage perhaps it would be less of a reason to avoid having us along. But being the Devils advocate Feel free to show what you might think should be done so we can avoid you having to feel the need to point out how we are all wronge on this topic.
Comments
A trapper HR will bring Thorn ward and Longstrider since that is part of his "max dmg rotation. If they add any other buffs/debuffs they are losing more dmg than they would be adding so...
A combat PF HR will bring Thorn ward and Longstrider, how ever dropping back to apply longstrider and coming back to the group evens out so tbh they shouldn't be using LS except only on the pull and in transitioning phases IE orcus going up in the air, or when Ras Nsi does his platform tilt.
A combat SW HR only brings Longstrider and it is a DPS loss to use it other than mentioned above for the start and transitions.
Any self respecting HR will not lower their dmg to buff a group of support players when he will lose more dmg than they will do as a whole. The point I was trying to get across about Scourge Warlocks is that it seems they want their cake and to eat it too. HB fury brings to the current meta buffs/debuffs and respectable dmg. Sure its not over the top dmg but its balanced with its buffs/debuffs.
A HB Temploc brings the same buffs/debuffs but also brings a 20% power boost via Dark Revely and then add awesome heals and they also do respectable dmg in comparison with the support they bring.
The only thing that IMO should be adjusted would be the Soulbinder dmg output but that will be hard to do as they need to make sure not to boost Hellbringers dmg.
Any build from any class that offers group buffs/debuffs/heals/control should be no where close to a build that if only focused on pure dmg.
I've got no problem with them fixing bugs and evening out some things for them. What I don't want to see ever support class/builds pushing big dmg, for the simple fact that is what TR's, GWF's & HR's are designed to do. As far as Damnation being worthless,... does it matter? I mean really every class in the game has broken nonviable tress IE Archery for HR's , Protector for GFs, Faithful for DC's and oh let see them Sentinel tanks for GWF'ers. Lets be honest HB fury/temp is in a decent spot considering what they bring. Give soulbinder a little love and call it a day.
Killing flames is my bread and butter, not dreadtheft!
Cursebite is nasty provided your not too lazy to curse your targets! I don't use all consuming curse.
Sure I'll lose a bit with pillar of power but I can still bust HAMSTER up!
Since I run ToNG with multiple pug groups every single day I would say that I see the numbers that HB fury and HB temp lock are putting up in there. If you rofl stomped one of them on your under geared DC, I'm calling BS that they know how to play it then. Goes to show that Ilvl doesn't = skill level. I will still stand by my opinion that if they are bringing the buffs/debuffs/heals that they do bring then they should be an easy 25-35% dps lower than we are. You can't justify giving them a overall dmg increase unless you take away the utility.
I wonder how much you'll keep sabotaging this thread. @kreatyve I think it is being time this is closed.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
You mentioning SB, but seems you forgot that warlock have 2 paragon paths. Hellbringer and soulbinders., and rework required not 1 paragon path, but whole warlock class in general. Thats including paragon paths and paragon trees.
Sure warlock where Overpowered when it got introduced in mod 4. lot of glitches and bad power interactions happened. But same where with paladin when it got introduced.
As for not making SW overpowered, relax, warlock now is in such position that would require to boost up over all it's dps by x4 times(at least) so it could compete with actual strikers, not heal paladin or heal DC.
Yet you understand that time is running out. Longer cryptic sits and do nothing. More players start to doubt about staffs ability to handle game and migrate elsewhere.
Whats holding current players is just D&D title and more less it's story. But as watter in time breaks rocks, same goes with players, in time got
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
I have ran with both in ToNG and my clear times are considerably quicker with way less deaths for the group running with SW's vs CW's As well as my encounter DPS is way higher with Templocks.
Yes there is a stigma out in the Neverwinter community about what classes should and should not be in a group and we both know that for the most part its complete BS. We both know exceptions in certain classes that seem to pull dmg out of thin air and just amazes us. If they can do it then all of those in that class should be able to do it.
That statement ^^^ is what's wrong with the community. WTF is the usefulness determined by the amount of damage you can personally do? please explain that to me. Support is equally if not more important than dps. I challenge anyone to run 1 tank 1 dc and 3 damage and clear ToNG regardless of Ilvl, good luck.
For now, the SW is a meant to be a striker class with minor buffs (only power of 9 is good) and minor cc abilities (that are very short, provided the enemy is not cc-immune..). When the toon is created, we are supposed to "decimate foes". The temptation tree is an attempt to make the SW different, but it is almost as irrelevant as the sentinel tree of the gwf: unfinished.
You know, I was one of the top dps in my former alliance, but I knew it was not the truth because I was not running with good other party members. It can apply to 3K channels as well: many people that play the game have just an average gameplay, and are not able to pull the best from their toons. Item level is just an indicator but proves nothing. As for the good players, they tend to play among them or are invited in private queue by their friends list.
It is not because you talk daily of the SW state with you SW friends that you do an accurate statement. I do the same with people from my guild and we don't have the same conclusion as yours. And these people are of the kind of people that are invited in private queue instantly: they really know all end-game stuff.
To come back to the state of SW, SW don't have good feats or crazy self-buffs, and they have outdated mechanics: HP of the enemy need to be low to reach full damage, the time to wait before the DOTs reach their full potential, the awful cooldown of encounters, the terrible AOE damage....
For example, in the turtle fight in FBI, in a good group with good power share, between each interruption during boss fights , HB SWs can cast 3-4 encounters (including pillar), 1 or 2 dailies and that's over! Meanwhile, the GF will have lend a 50 million griffon and the GWF will have done his several-million buffed IBS during this 10 second frame.
During this 10 second frame, the SB SW will barely do better because of the slow start of sparks generation.
For both, the slow damage of DOTs can not compete when other classes do burst dps and can benefit more from power share (e.g aura of courage) or party buffs.
And to be honest, I am shocked that even my average DC can do a 5 million damage with DL here, when i compare to my SW.....
To sum up, SWs are only good in long fights (it is fine for me to have a boss killer role) and can shine if the other DPSers are not good.
In other cases, they are behind, not necessarly by a high margin, but still behind. In some cases, they can be litteraly crucified but I accept the fact that some situations can be better for other dps classes.
Owlbear cub nerf was expected (it is not normal to depend on a pet), but it will increase the gap.
If you don't main a SW or if you don't run with excellent dpsers, it is better to back off from this discussion.
Class balance is a difficult subject.
About this ::
That statement ^^^ is what's wrong with the community. WTF is the usefulness determined by the amount of damage you can personally do? please explain that to me. Support is equally if not more important than dps.
You forget we are once rather only wanted for our support
Ex: lf1m longstrider hr. Remember that? How can you say that you wish that people would realize there is more to a class than raw damage when all your seek for your self is raw dmg. We are talking about a class that was one known as a striker and all you would like to do is keep it down to using its utility. How can your be OK with hrs, the former laughing stock of the community, being buffed but not the sw which is in our former spot. I'm done for now but man this is a real issue.
@etelgrin according to what I was reading on the PvP threads the Devs are not happy with the dmg GF's are doing and they are looking into changing that. TBH I have no clue if they are but thats what being tossed around. GF's dmg potential IMO should be lowered as well, I know all to well the dmg GF's can pop out.
> When you say that HB furys/templocks dont bring much support I have to disagree. Pillar of power w/power of the nine hells = debuff the bosses dmg and dmg resistance, increases our dmg and dmg resistance and lasts for 5 secs once we leave the PoP making it amazing on heavy movement fights, Hand of Blight = dmg debuff on the boss, Hadars Grasp = CC, off hand feat that also reduces Damage resistance on mobs. Now add that to the heals that Templocks brings us and +20% power and movement speed from Dark Revelry. So I'm sorry you are just wrong about their Utility now since you prefer a MoF support instead of that lets see what they bring. +3% more stats from Prestidigitation, Chill gives a 5% DR on mobs, 5% crit chance from Uncertain which is worthless since we are at crit cap, Allies gain combat advantage from Nightmare wizardy feat worthless HR's always have combat advantage. The have some of the best CC in the game.
>
> I have ran with both in ToNG and my clear times are considerably quicker with way less deaths for the group running with SW's vs CW's As well as my encounter DPS is way higher with Templocks.
>
> Yes there is a stigma out in the Neverwinter community about what classes should and should not be in a group and we both know that for the most part its complete BS. We both know exceptions in certain classes that seem to pull dmg out of thin air and just amazes us. If they can do it then all of those in that class should be able to do it.
Hey there id like to clear some things up.
What kinda stuff does a HB SW bring:
PoP (with PotNH): 18% dmg buff for the group +10% debuff
Hand of Blight: reduces DMG BUT noone uses it and dmg reduce is not really a factor.
Hadars Grasp: The debuff got removed in the Rework with that came with mod 10 so this only brings CC which in PvE atleast is a nonfactor since it sucks on groups and u cant CC bosses (there are no offhand feats for encounters btw^^).
Also infernal Wrath (Fury Path) which is a 5% debuff
And Dreadtheft which is a 25% debuff
So in total we have 18% dps buff and 40% debuff
Now for Templock we have heals who imo have very little use in Endgame groups
and we have DR which is boosting the Base Power of you and your Companion by 20% so thats about 6-8K more Power for an endgame char.
Then we have a little AP gain and some dmg reduction.
All in all thats not bad as Bonus but it isnt enough to Consider HB Fury/temp a buffer since if you count in diminishing returns of debuffs (the 40% debuff is maybe 10%dps increase most of the time even less) and that they add instead of multilpy + the fact that an Endgame group is usually at above 200k Power (so the 8k power are about 4% dps increase or less) we boost the Party about the same amount a DC can boost with 1 bts (this isnt meant to hate on DCs).
Call it alot or call it not much idc but SW as a main buffer isnt good compared to the other options.
Now in terms of DPS it has alrdy been said and i can only say it again SW does enoguh dmg for all dungeons when played right but in Comparison to the other classes it falls behind and imo Cryptic should adjust that.
also @"jaime4312#3760" trying to silence ppl isnt the way to go. (and also why do u mention Unforgiven as example for dps GWFs? hes ok but nowhere near really good gwfs like Wicked)
and also whats up with all these ppl claiming HR at its best is outdpsing GWF at its best
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
"Tbh running a dungeon with only one DPS is the best way to judge that class/build viability."
"Since I run ToNG with multiple pug groups..."
On your first comment, that is not a good measure, because it gives you a false idea of the damage capability of whatever class you are playing. If the only reason you are doing good damage is because 4 players are buffing it, then there is a problem vs other classes that do not require that kind of level of buffs to do the same. By that reasoning, I could say TRs are in a great place because I was able to do 5 million damage with Lashing Blade. But, a GWF IBS could do 25 million under the same buffs.
Your second comment is also a poor indicator as to the health of a class because most of the people who know how to play their class well, don't pug. I do rarely pug, and it makes me feel good, being a TR, and carrying a group through. But, it is not a good indicator, as I said. It's too easy for people to make groups in their guild, their alliance, or, if they have played for a long time, their friends they have made along the way. Pugs are nice for the occasional ego boost, but something tells me you don't really need any more of that.
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That statement ^^^ is what's wrong with the community. WTF is the usefulness determined by the amount of damage you can personally do? please explain that to me. Support is equally if not more important than dps.
You forget we are once rather only wanted for our support
Ex: lf1m longstrider hr. Remember that? How can you say that you wish that people would realize there is more to a class than raw damage when all your seek for your self is raw dmg. We are talking about a class that was one known as a striker and all you would like to do is keep it down to using its utility. How can your be OK with hrs, the former laughing stock of the community, being buffed but not the sw which is in our former spot. I'm done for now but man this is a real issue. Think about where we've been before you say that.
> > @dragonsbane3 said:
>
> > When you say that HB furys/templocks dont bring much support I have to disagree. Pillar of power w/power of the nine hells = debuff the bosses dmg and dmg resistance, increases our dmg and dmg resistance and lasts for 5 secs once we leave the PoP making it amazing on heavy movement fights, Hand of Blight = dmg debuff on the boss, Hadars Grasp = CC, off hand feat that also reduces Damage resistance on mobs. Now add that to the heals that Templocks brings us and +20% power and movement speed from Dark Revelry. So I'm sorry you are just wrong about their Utility now since you prefer a MoF support instead of that lets see what they bring. +3% more stats from Prestidigitation, Chill gives a 5% DR on mobs, 5% crit chance from Uncertain which is worthless since we are at crit cap, Allies gain combat advantage from Nightmare wizardy feat worthless HR's always have combat advantage. The have some of the best CC in the game.
> >
> > I have ran with both in ToNG and my clear times are considerably quicker with way less deaths for the group running with SW's vs CW's As well as my encounter DPS is way higher with Templocks.
> >
> > Yes there is a stigma out in the Neverwinter community about what classes should and should not be in a group and we both know that for the most part its complete BS. We both know exceptions in certain classes that seem to pull dmg out of thin air and just amazes us. If they can do it then all of those in that class should be able to do it.
>
>
> Hey there id like to clear some things up.
> What kinda stuff does a HB SW bring:
>
> PoP (with PotNH): 18% dmg buff for the group +10% debuff
> Hand of Blight: reduces DMG BUT noone uses it and dmg reduce is not really a factor.
> Hadars Grasp: The debuff got removed in the Rework with that came with mod 10 so this only brings CC which in PvE atleast is a nonfactor since it sucks on groups and u cant CC bosses (there are no offhand feats for encounters btw^^).
> Also infernal Wrath (Fury Path) which is a 5% debuff
> And Dreadtheft which is a 25% debuff
> So in total we have 18% dps buff and 40% debuff
>
> Now for Templock we have heals who imo have very little use in Endgame groups
> and we have DR which is boosting the Base Power of you and your Companion by 20% so thats about 6-8K more Power for an endgame char.
> Then we have a little AP gain and some dmg reduction.
>
> All in all thats not bad as Bonus but it isnt enough to Consider HB Fury/temp a buffer since if you count in diminishing returns of debuffs (the 40% debuff is maybe 10%dps increase most of the time even less) and that they add instead of multilpy + the fact that an Endgame group is usually at above 200k Power (so the 8k power are about 4% dps increase or less) we boost the Party about the same amount a DC can boost with 1 bts (this isnt meant to hate on DCs).
>
> Call it alot or call it not much idc but SW as a main buffer isnt good compared to the other options.
>
> Now in terms of DPS it has alrdy been said and i can only say it again SW does enoguh dmg for all dungeons when played right but in Comparison to the other classes it falls behind and imo Cryptic should adjust that.
>
> also @jaime4312#3760 trying to silence ppl isnt the way to go. (and also why do u mention Unforgiven as example for dps GWFs? hes ok but nowhere near really good gwfs like Wicked)
> and also whats up with all these ppl claiming HR at its best is outdpsing GWF at its best
There aren't a lot of good ones in my opinion. But they say that because they play against gwfs not playing at their full potential. I should not be beating a gwf with more power and ilvl and stats overall than I have. But I do. But then I hear about that one gwf and ask them to race or might just bump into one pugging. Same amount of stats or more. Completely different experience. It's as if I'm racing against time and it's fun as all get out. I asked duck about a couple of months ago and there has only been one hr who beat him. Just one. I can't remember who it was but it was one of the top and it was done in msva. Hrs can do some massive damage but when you run groups with top top players your perception changes immediately. White is black and chicken is duck roast. I think they're tied but when I ask other top hrs what they think they say gwfs are top and hrs are a second close, which might be the more objective but truthful opinion. All you have to do is ask those top players, better yet, ask them to run with you and set up a group and see for yourself. See what they can do yourself and you'll have your answer.
Now lets put you and I in the same group but because of the way we are designed I have 0 ramp up time for max dmg, where as you may need to line up a few skills first for you to be at max. That will make a huge difference in the whole run when trying to compare your dps output to mine. Then consider AOE vs ST. I have a build which excels at both where as you may have to have 2 separate builds 1 for each because of what you need to sacrifice to excel at either one. I just do not believe that racing against another dps in a group is a accurate way to judge one class or builds viability when the current meta in game is 4 support 1 dmg.
As far as people that know how to play there class don't pug at all or often, I find this to be the opposite atm. I am a very competitive person. I love to min/max and push my class/build as far as I can. My guild/alliance does not have any members of the same mindset. I came back to the game about 10 months ago and do not feel the need to guild hop to find a group of like minded people. Trust me when I say I have much smoother and efficient runs with 90% of the pugs I do these days with the avg item lvls in the 13.3-15k range than I do with guild/alliance runs where they are 16K+. We all know that Ilvl does not equal skill level. I find people that pug a lot play at a higher skill lvl than most others since if they do not perform well they wont get far. If I want to run 5 ToNG runs today and my avg pug is doing it in under 30 min where as the avg alliance run is at a hour. Which would you be running?
(Before anyone makes a claim, I main a SW and have around 1500 hours on her. I run all endgame content, so I know what I’m talking about)
1) Warlock buffs don’t matter.
You can sit here all day and talk about the buffing potential of a warlock, but the fact is we are dps. When we pug, it’s expected we dps. When players are looking for players, it’s tanks(we don’t do) or buffs(which dc and ca do much better). We don’t replace DC’s in queue lists...we’re just nice Addons if we get in groups.
Unlike CW, GWF, and HR, we don’t have a massive damage tree if we don’t use our support abilities. There is no “pure damage build” for us. As many have said, we buff... but those buffs are puny at best and outshone by dc, cw, even some pally builds. What’s worse, our dps endgame is that of support classes. But unlike these support players, we are not of high demand in dungeons and are instead lumped with the damage dealers.
The whole class is confused.
2) Casting time and Dots: comparing apples to apples.
A sole dps run only tests damage output if you Time the runs. The same enemies will spawn (unless your group avoids more portals in MSP) and relatively the same damage is available to do. Wipes, mob resets, etc can affect that, but in terms of total damage, the sole dps numbers will look the relatively same.
It is, however, an accurate gauge (especially for the speed run meta we are in) to run against another dps class. I run often with a similar ilevel gwf. He obliterates most mobs before I can cast more than curses and PoP.
This has other impacts in PvE as well. Where I take time to kill a mob swarming(specifically to cast) he hits and immediately kills. When a mob in Chult comes at me, I need half a second...he swings his sword immediately. How am I to compete? More importantly, what use am I if I’m only doing 60% of his total damage and little buffing?
3)OwlBearCub matters
So what’s the point? How does this relate?
Well, I remember when the OBC revelation came upon me. I went from doing 40% of my GWF friend’s damage to 60. It narrowed the gap.
Yes, a class should not be dependent on one companion, but how many dps are dependent on archons? If a class isn’t dependent on certain items/companions/gear, why do we have BiS?
In the end, something is always best and now our best is getting (supposedly) nerfed. Yes, that’s aggravating because my time is important and I gave it to my warlock (all 1500 hours)
4) So what?
So in 6 pages of comments, I agree this thread is poorly titled. The issue isn’t the OBC nerf, it’s a lack of purpose for the warlock. We can do meager buffs, we can do massive healing (if the Damage isn’t mitigated by negation enchants, rebuffs, and dodging), and mediocre damage, yet we are still in the damage dealers classification.
So I ask the devs not to unfix OBC, but to give us a job. We may be a jack of all trades (heals, damage, buffs) but as the masters of none, we are becoming meaningless.
How then to make the SW a competitive class when GWF's, HR's and CW's can hit harder and faster?