======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
I'm sorry to see SW join us TRs on the isle of misfit classes. Us TRs arrived here 8 months ago. But, y'all have to get in line for a class rework. We were here first! We were here when you all did bajillions in Damage.
But, until one of us gets reworked, we should get some TR/SW groups together. Maybe we could play Mario cart or something...
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
I'm sorry to see SW join us TRs on the isle of misfit classes. Us TRs arrived here 8 months ago. But, y'all have to get in line for a class rework. We were here first! We were here when you all did bajillions in Damage.
Meanwhile, devs want to radically alter a well functioning class (DC) for PvE... despite the promise to TRs made in 10.5/11 and despite the fact that SW clearly underperforms in many areas...
> @sirjimbofrancis said: > I'm sorry to see SW join us TRs on the isle of misfit classes. Us TRs arrived here 8 months ago. But, y'all have to get in line for a class rework. We were here first! We were here when you all did bajillions in Damage. > > But, until one of us gets reworked, we should get some TR/SW groups together. Maybe we could play Mario cart or something...
Us SW's have already been thru the rework. TR's were not first... sw's are unfinished... they fixed most of the bugs giving us damage but never compensated the damage loss. Just like they promised to finish reworking the temptation tree after they reworked lifesteal. Which still goes untouched. Both classes need some love, but to say one deserves it more than the other is just flaming... and doesnt help either class...
I'm sorry to see SW join us TRs on the isle of misfit classes. Us TRs arrived here 8 months ago. But, y'all have to get in line for a class rework. We were here first! We were here when you all did bajillions in Damage.
But, until one of us gets reworked, we should get some TR/SW groups together. Maybe we could play Mario cart or something...
SW actually is in a worse spot than TR, mod 10.5 TC fix with no compensation (as mod 10 SW dps wasn't overpowered compared to other dps like GWF/CW/HR) gutted the dps of top tier warlocks by up to 40% (for HB, for SB was more in the 10% - 20% range if I remember correctly), a forty percent dps nerf o.O Fernu and Natsu tested that on preview back then and comfirmed Sharpedge's calculations were right. Mod 121b OBC nerf is more or less a 10% dps loss for HB, yay another nerf...
It'd be cool to make SW and TR teams for sure, but for neverwinter lol
I guess we can only wait for a rework soon (tm) Someone mentioned that a CM "believes" SW still is "viable" (if that means being the worst damage dealer by far then sure...) and whoever that is, let me asure you that statement is downright laughable and couldn't be any more off the game's current state.
I think that both classes have something in common that doesn't precisely help with their reputation and it's, at least on console, most players are pretty bad, some are decent and very very few ones stand out. The stigma against pve SW and TR shall continue, to think that SW now has it worse in that regard is not precisely encouraging to play as one, no wonder so many people are retiring their locks, on top of that devs do nothing to fix the class...
Someone mentioned that a CM "believes" SW still is "viable"
Purple monkey dishwasher.
The most that would have been said by the CM is that the devs believe SWs are viable even without this damage source (and her job is to report to the devs that players disagree, and she's DOING THAT). She doesn't make decisions about gameplay, and it does everyone a disservice to repeat information that's inaccurate or incomplete.
> I'm sorry to see SW join us TRs on the isle of misfit classes. Us TRs arrived here 8 months ago. But, y'all have to get in line for a class rework. We were here first! We were here when you all did bajillions in Damage.
>
> But, until one of us gets reworked, we should get some TR/SW groups together. Maybe we could play Mario cart or something...
Us SW's have already been thru the rework. TR's were not first... sw's are unfinished... they fixed most of the bugs giving us damage but never compensated the damage loss. Just like they promised to finish reworking the temptation tree after they reworked lifesteal. Which still goes untouched. Both classes need some love, but to say one deserves it more than the other is just flaming... and doesnt help either class...
My comment purely tongue in cheek. Both classes need work, and I didn't intend to seriously contend the TRs are somehow more deserving or anything. I'm sorry that wasn't clear.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
I've been watching some pretty good ACT battles in WOD on DR runs between a 13.9k SW and a 14k GWF lately. For some reason they both tend to be there a lot. They are always neck in neck with about 5% difference and the SW only has 10% of his damage coming from IC (70-ish crit I believe so probably not norm for IC users who I would expect try and stay low crit). Then 20-30% lower on the dps chart is a 13.8k TR. So even with IC damage cut (in half is it?) by the next mod they sure do seem to have some EXCELLENT top tier single target damage right now and that will still be possible afterwards.
It seems to me you can't gauge the OVERALL DPS nerf by current gear, as that will need to be all changed back to high crit.
I've been watching some pretty good ACT battles in WOD on DR runs between a 13.9k SW and a 14k GWF lately. For some reason they both tend to be there a lot. They are always neck in neck with about 5% difference and the SW only has 10% of his damage coming from IC (70-ish crit I believe so probably not norm for IC users who I would expect try and stay low crit). Then 20-30% lower on the dps chart is a 13.8k TR. So even with IC damage cut (in half is it?) by the next mod they sure do seem to have some EXCELLENT top tier single target damage right now and that will still be possible afterwards.
It seems to me you can't gauge the OVERALL DPS nerf by current gear, as that will need to be all changed back to high crit.
WOD is far from endgame content and a GWF that does only 5% more than a HB SW is doing something really wrong, the SW you mentioned doesn't even have 100% crit rate (this and that the GWF barely beats him in damage shows they are far from top tier dps) and then you come up with "70-ish crit I believe so probably not norm for IC users who I would expect try and stay low crit" proves you don't know about SW. Even if you don't mean to, all you post does is giving devs the excuse to continue to disregard the feedback from people who actually play the class, are good at it (like Natsu) and as such are aware of what's wrong with it and what could be done to bring it in line with the other damage dealers.
Then play waiting game for about 50 days, perhaps new class gets released
So...I don't mean this in any sort of a personal way, but why do so many people think a new class is imminent, and why do they think it would be anything less than horrifying for the developers to release it before they fix existing class balance issues?
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Then play waiting game for about 50 days, perhaps new class gets released
So...I don't mean this in any sort of a personal way, but why do so many people think a new class is imminent, and why do they think it would be anything less than horrifying for the developers to release it before they fix existing class balance issues?
It's officially confirmed that one was being developed for M12, but got backburnered again due to workload. While it's not reasonable to expect as part of 12b, 13 isn't totally out of the question. We'll see.
As to existing balance issues, they're not likely to fix them 100% at any time, so there comes a point where they have to say "let's try this" re: another class. They can't reasonably hold a position of no new classes ever, until existing class balance is perfect. They're not ever going to say "ok, good enough!" and completely stop working on class balancing either.
Another reason cited for not releasing a new class was the burden of alting, which they're also working hard at reducing. So they're getting into a better position for it with each improvement.
As for the off topic idea about a new class . Allow me to help remind many as to how that will go. Depending on which direction they go with a new class be it DPS,Tank ,Healer ,Buff/Debuff ect. Just like the SW and OP as our latest examples of this .You can be sure that what ever current class we have that feels like this new one is coming onto their area, will start the nerf train just like the SW and OP had done to them . The reason for this topic is SW based so will try to just point out to them that hoping for a new class that will avoid the nerf train ,well good luck with that. Sorry this idea came up will most likely give them the excuss to close this but they dont seem to care to speak on this anyway.
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jiubiizeekkMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 144Arc User
I'm sorry to see SW join us TRs on the isle of misfit classes. Us TRs arrived here 8 months ago. But, y'all have to get in line for a class rework. We were here first! We were here when you all did bajillions in Damage.
But, until one of us gets reworked, we should get some TR/SW groups together. Maybe we could play Mario cart or something...
SW actually is in a worse spot than TR, mod 10.5 TC fix with no compensation (as mod 10 SW dps wasn't overpowered compared to other dps like GWF/CW/HR) gutted the dps of top tier warlocks by up to 40% (for HB, for SB was more in the 10% - 20% range if I remember correctly), a forty percent dps nerf o.O Fernu and Natsu tested that on preview back then and comfirmed Sharpedge's calculations were right. Mod 121b OBC nerf is more or less a 10% dps loss for HB, yay another nerf...
It'd be cool to make SW and TR teams for sure, but for neverwinter lol
I guess we can only wait for a rework soon (tm) Someone mentioned that a CM "believes" SW still is "viable" (if that means being the worst damage dealer by far then sure...) and whoever that is, let me asure you that statement is downright laughable and couldn't be any more off the game's current state.
I think that both classes have something in common that doesn't precisely help with their reputation and it's, at least on console, most players are pretty bad, some are decent and very very few ones stand out. The stigma against pve SW and TR shall continue, to think that SW now has it worse in that regard is not precisely encouraging to play as one, no wonder so many people are retiring their locks, on top of that devs do nothing to fix the class...
I have never, ever heard someone say "SWs are too powerful". This isn't like the Bondings change, they were legitimately too powerful, SWs are perfectly fine in general as is the Owlbear Cub and its interactions with their powers.
If this is about it being a "must have" companion then do the intelligent thing; put it up for sale in the Trade Bar store at Uncommon rarity just like other companions or even better, Epic Rarity on the Zen market.
If these changes go live, no SW will continue to be played, I guarantee it.
So just don't. There is nothing wrong with the companion as it currently is, just leave it alone.
I have never, ever heard someone say "SWs are too powerful".
While I don't know if you were around when SWs first came out, they were very OP mainly due to TT, now called TC, and the hellbringer tree's interactions. Killing Flame, Dreadtheft and Warlock's Bargain were used very successfully to burn bosses. As time went on, the SW was nerfed and became less relevant in parties.
If you don't believe how powerful the SWs were, check youtube for videos where they solo'ed the OLD Castle Never. Most of those guys have left the game since then but you may still be able to view their videos.
I don't disagree that SWs need some dev love but to say that they were never OP is incorrect.
Firstly I think this thread should be renamed to > warlock rebellion< ., Owlbear cub companion rework is not bad idea, but bad is fact that Cryptic studios have no idea how changes affect game classes.
Anyways, Lets see what we have with current warlock case.. Lot of them quiting. Had lot of sw old timers in my friend list, so either they quit game or abandon warlock class. And thats not about mid tear player, I don't count them at all. I count only high/top end ones. Last my known Temptation warlock which played as templock since mod 4 quited game about 15 days ago. I don't know much about fernuu, because each time I check friend list I see his account offline....
So, players quiting SW, means class is terrible.. And thats bring to 2 options.
1) developers(cryptic staff) start conversation with us (SW community) and start work on this problem. 2) Let warlocks extinct,
But with option 2 will cause extra effect. It will proves that staff not capable to handle one class, and brings question can they do handle others too. Which eventually downgrade game. Players start quit game, which eventually lead to game termination.
Sure lot of would say it's nonsense, but in such manner/way died lot of games.
So it's up for you Cryptic what u want. Keep game going, or u want to drill more holes in sinking ship.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
I have never, ever heard someone say "SWs are too powerful".
While I don't know if you were around when SWs first came out, they were very OP mainly due to TT, now called TC, and the hellbringer tree's interactions. Killing Flame, Dreadtheft and Warlock's Bargain were used very successfully to burn bosses. As time went on, the SW was nerfed and became less relevant in parties.
If you don't believe how powerful the SWs were, check youtube for videos where they solo'ed the OLD Castle Never. Most of those guys have left the game since then but you may still be able to view their videos.
I don't disagree that SWs need some dev love but to say that they were never OP is incorrect.
I think he meant as in never hearing that in current state rather than on previous mods, whatever SWs were able to do in the past doesn't matter, what does matter is the current, pitiful state it's at now, it got totally overnerfed and needs to be reworked so it's comparable to other damage dealers.
Firstly I think this thread should be renamed to > warlock rebellion< ., Owlbear cub companion rework is not bad idea, but bad is fact that Cryptic studios have no idea how changes affect game classes.
Anyways, Lets see what we have with current warlock case.. Lot of them quiting. Had lot of sw old timers in my friend list, so either they quit game or abandon warlock class. And thats not about mid tear player, I don't count them at all. I count only high/top end ones. Last my known Temptation warlock which played as templock since mod 4 quited game about 15 days ago. I don't know much about fernuu, because each time I check friend list I see his account offline....
So, players quiting SW, means class is terrible.. And thats bring to 2 options.
1) developers(cryptic staff) start conversation with us (SW community) and start work on this problem. 2) Let warlocks extinct,
But with option 2 will cause extra effect. It will proves that staff not capable to handle one class, and brings question can they do handle others too. Which eventually downgrade game. Players start quit game, which eventually lead to game termination.
Sure lot of would say it's nonsense, but in such manner/way died lot of games.
So it's up for you Cryptic what u want. Keep game going, or u want to drill more holes in sinking ship.
I think fernu himself stated on his YT channel he barely plays neverwinter nowadays as he's having more fun with other games (with SW getting nerfed to the ground it's only natural he feels that way) plus other stuff keeping him entertained and busy as well.
The most powerful SB SW I've ever seen and run with on xb1 is almost done done with neverwinter and out of the few people in my friends list who play SW most of them switched to another class already (HR, GWF and DC being the most common converts) or flat out quit the game as the class keeps getting nerfed, the OBC changes of mod 12b killed their will to play that class and I'm pretty skeptical about it myself, the thought of taking another significant blow to dps yet again is very discouraging.
Caveat: I've never played GWF, so these are outside observations, as a HR, that may be inaccurate. Please correct me where I am wrong.
GWF absolutely beats HR on either ST or AoE, but has to pick one to excel at at any given time, which often includes switching class features, an encounter power, maybe an at-will, and optimally even a weapon enchant. It doesn't necessitate swapping loadouts (i don't think?), because they only appear to have one endgame viable PP and feat path.
GWF is also generally accepted to be....kind of boring to play. GWF doesn't have very many buttons to press very frequently, but has to watch their buff bar and manage cooldowns and procs and self buffs in order to maximize their output with at-wills and IBS.
HRs best spammable at-will for single-target, and most of their optimal ST encounter powers happen to be AoE anyway, so even if a HR remains "fully specced for ST", they will beat a ST-focused GWF on AoE. Combat HR *can* choose to use lightning for AoE and switch back to Vorpal for ST, but for whatever reason that's way less common than GWFs enchant-swapping between Lightning and [pick one: Vorpal/Holy/Terror/Fey]. If a HR does want to swap between SW and PF loadouts (which is only even sort of necessary for combat HRs, trapper gains no benefit from SW) to switch from AoE to ST dps, that's easy to do now.
HR is (in my opinion) an absolute joy to play. If HRs had Shadow Slip, I'd return to only having one main. I do have my complaints about the class (largely that Pathfinder is a complete garbage paragon path propped up by its overpowered melee at-will), but very few things in this game are more thrilling than playing SW Combat, IMO -- and even if you disagree on that, Trapper exists and is equally viable.
edit: I also tossed a thread about this issue on the bug report forum, since there's still been no indication from a dev that this was an intentional change. So we'll see what if anything happens, I guess.
You see this is the problem with 99% of the Neverwinter community. True Hunter Ranger masters are few and far between. We, when played correctly beat GWF'ers with ease. GWF'ers need the right group setup and a long boss fight to pull close to us. We have an awesome advantage since out dmg is front loaded and requires no setup. Trappers used to be king of the hill when speaking about HR's until mod 12 hit, with the changes to Piercing Blade Stormwarden and Pathfinder HR's flew past Trapper in damage potential. Now with 12.5 hitting and they have fixed Seekers Vengeance and fixed when Furry actually happens has added another modest 20% more dmg to the combat build. PF combat has a slightly higher single target potential while SW combat as much better aoe. The awesome thing about our combat setups is that we don't have to change a single thing to max out aoe or single target the skills stay the same .
The reason people believe GWF's beat out HR's is that at lower Ilvls HR's are not able to hit all 3 caps/break points that is needed to change from a "standard" rotation to a "priority" based one and even takes one a trapper'ish style of play. ATM with BiS gear, soloing i'm able to hit almost 100k power, add to that Arpen/Crit caps. The dmg is insane, then add us to a group with an OP and 2 DCs hitting the 300k power range and 0 cooldowns on our encounters,.... you could argue we are rather broken. The sad thing there is we still have a lot of skills and interactions that are just plagued with bugs and are broke. If they fixed it all it would just make the gap that much worse. I expect to see a straight out dmg nerf in mod 13. Especially since they had already said they wanted TR's to be the king of single target dps.
Now on that topic. you can go over to the TR class forums and see all the posts about how broken they are. Then go check out the CW forums and you see the same thing there. It seems the avg TR & CW players believe they are falling behind and can not be competitive for dps spots in groups these days. While tbh a lot of it is learn to play issues. How can you explain CW's like Sharpedge, Fredom and a few others and certain TR's that hang right in there with the top HRs and in some circumstances beat us flat out. If the classes are that broken they wouldn't be able to. So do they have some secret information that no others have on their respective classes? are they cheating in some way? That is a no and a no. It comes down to the fact that they have mastered their class, have a full understanding of the game, mechanics, builds. It is called "skill gap". Knowing what classes to bring, skills to use & when to time debuffs & buffs in burst windows to max out damage goes a long way.
I would love to know if the Dev's have a combat simulator program that could run all the classes and skills through aoe/st sims. I'd wager that most of the classes would be a lot closer than the general public thinks.
Caveat: I've never played GWF, so these are outside observations, as a HR, that may be inaccurate. Please correct me where I am wrong.
GWF absolutely beats HR on either ST or AoE, but has to pick one to excel at at any given time, which often includes switching class features, an encounter power, maybe an at-will, and optimally even a weapon enchant. It doesn't necessitate swapping loadouts (i don't think?), because they only appear to have one endgame viable PP and feat path.
GWF is also generally accepted to be....kind of boring to play. GWF doesn't have very many buttons to press very frequently, but has to watch their buff bar and manage cooldowns and procs and self buffs in order to maximize their output with at-wills and IBS.
HRs best spammable at-will for single-target, and most of their optimal ST encounter powers happen to be AoE anyway, so even if a HR remains "fully specced for ST", they will beat a ST-focused GWF on AoE. Combat HR *can* choose to use lightning for AoE and switch back to Vorpal for ST, but for whatever reason that's way less common than GWFs enchant-swapping between Lightning and [pick one: Vorpal/Holy/Terror/Fey]. If a HR does want to swap between SW and PF loadouts (which is only even sort of necessary for combat HRs, trapper gains no benefit from SW) to switch from AoE to ST dps, that's easy to do now.
HR is (in my opinion) an absolute joy to play. If HRs had Shadow Slip, I'd return to only having one main. I do have my complaints about the class (largely that Pathfinder is a complete garbage paragon path propped up by its overpowered melee at-will), but very few things in this game are more thrilling than playing SW Combat, IMO -- and even if you disagree on that, Trapper exists and is equally viable.
edit: I also tossed a thread about this issue on the bug report forum, since there's still been no indication from a dev that this was an intentional change. So we'll see what if anything happens, I guess.
I would love to know if the Dev's have a combat simulator program that could run all the classes and skills through aoe/st sims. I'd wager that most of the classes would be a lot closer than the general public thinks.
I disagree here and it is accepted by the most powerful SW on PC (like Natsu and Fernu) and other platforms that the class is behind the rest, this is proven when they run vs top dogs of other classes who can beat them consistently. You could argue that, in the very few situations it has a chance to do something, Soulbinder paragon doesn't struggle as much as Hellbringer does vs top tier players from other classes but, overall, the class does underperform vs the rest of damage dealers and mod 12b further worsens this with a 10% dps blow to Hellbringer.
Unless you play the class you won't know the limitations it has and yeah all classes have their bugs and such but if SW is in the state it is now is because the amount of limitations, underpowered skills and outdated mechanics it has makes it be worst damage dealer class by leaps and bounds.
People state GWF is underpowered? Wickedduck, Unforgiven and others disagree and prove that wrong.
People state CW is underpowered? Sharpedge and Freedom disagree and prove that wrong.
People state SW is underpowered? The best players in all platforms agree, general consensus is SW can deal decent dps but is not a match for the other damage dealers. Now you see the difference? Also, any BiS players and/or players with superior understanding of the game who ran with BiS SWs agree with that statement as well, the fact that people like @thefabricant@rjc9000@sirjimbofrancis and others agree Scourge Warlock isn't perfoming that good speaks volumes as of how terrible the state of the class is, they know their stuff and that translates to their toons' perfomance so their statements are reliable.
I could ask you to go with your best rotation, build, items, buffed and potted to the moon trying your best to dps and challenge any SW to beat you, that would quickly show you the class is in desperate need for a rework.
It is bad enough that most feedback we give falls on deaf ears so please, don't give devs the excuse to disregard it by saying things about a class you do not main or even play, if SW was "closer to other classes than general public thinks" people wouldn't be retiring their toons, switching to another class or flat out quitting the game. It would also help if you don't reply to off topic posts as it derails the thread, most of what you said was about HR and GWF which have nothing to do here.
Caveat: I've never played GWF, so these are outside observations, as a HR, that may be inaccurate. Please correct me where I am wrong.
GWF absolutely beats HR on either ST or AoE, but has to pick one to excel at at any given time, which often includes switching class features, an encounter power, maybe an at-will, and optimally even a weapon enchant. It doesn't necessitate swapping loadouts (i don't think?), because they only appear to have one endgame viable PP and feat path.
GWF is also generally accepted to be....kind of boring to play. GWF doesn't have very many buttons to press very frequently, but has to watch their buff bar and manage cooldowns and procs and self buffs in order to maximize their output with at-wills and IBS.
HRs best spammable at-will for single-target, and most of their optimal ST encounter powers happen to be AoE anyway, so even if a HR remains "fully specced for ST", they will beat a ST-focused GWF on AoE. Combat HR *can* choose to use lightning for AoE and switch back to Vorpal for ST, but for whatever reason that's way less common than GWFs enchant-swapping between Lightning and [pick one: Vorpal/Holy/Terror/Fey]. If a HR does want to swap between SW and PF loadouts (which is only even sort of necessary for combat HRs, trapper gains no benefit from SW) to switch from AoE to ST dps, that's easy to do now.
HR is (in my opinion) an absolute joy to play. If HRs had Shadow Slip, I'd return to only having one main. I do have my complaints about the class (largely that Pathfinder is a complete garbage paragon path propped up by its overpowered melee at-will), but very few things in this game are more thrilling than playing SW Combat, IMO -- and even if you disagree on that, Trapper exists and is equally viable.
edit: I also tossed a thread about this issue on the bug report forum, since there's still been no indication from a dev that this was an intentional change. So we'll see what if anything happens, I guess.
I would love to know if the Dev's have a combat simulator program that could run all the classes and skills through aoe/st sims. I'd wager that most of the classes would be a lot closer than the general public thinks.
I disagree here and it is accepted by the most powerful SW on PC (like Natsu and Fernu) and other platforms that the class is behind the rest, this is proven when they run vs top dogs of other classes who can beat them consistently. You could argue that, in the very few situations it has a chance to do something, Soulbinder paragon doesn't struggle as much as Hellbringer does vs top tier players from other classes but, overall, the class does underperform vs the rest of damage dealers and mod 12b further worsens this with a 10% dps blow to Hellbringer.
Unless you play the class you won't know the limitations it has and yeah all classes have their bugs and such but if SW is in the state it is now is because the amount of limitations, underpowered skills and outdated mechanics it has makes it be worst damage dealer class by leaps and bounds.
People state GWF is underpowered? Wickedduck, Unforgiven and others disagree and prove that wrong.
People state CW is underpowered? Sharpedge and Freedom disagree and prove that wrong.
People state SW is underpowered? The best players in all platforms agree, general consensus is SW can deal decent dps but is not a match for the other damage dealers. Now you see the difference? Also, any BiS players and/or players with superior understanding of the game who ran with BiS SWs agree with that statement as well, the fact that people like @thefabricant@rjc9000@sirjimbofrancis and others agree Scourge Warlock isn't perfoming that good speaks volumes as of how terrible the state of the class is, they know their stuff and that translates to their toons' perfomance so their statements are reliable.
I could ask you to go with your best rotation, build, items, buffed and potted to the moon trying your best to dps and challenge any SW to beat you, that would quickly show you the class is in desperate need for a rework.
It is bad enough that most feedback we give falls on deaf ears so please, don't give devs the excuse to disregard it by saying things about a class you do not main or even play, if SW was "closer to other classes than general public thinks" people wouldn't be retiring their toons, switching to another class or flat out quitting the game. It would also help if you don't reply to off topic posts as it derails the thread, most of what you said was about HR and GWF which have nothing to do here.
Look I agree with you if you are trying to compare SW vs GWF or SW vs HR it can't come close to us in pure dps. But what you have to look at is what you are bring to the table. As a GWF, whos is trying to max dmg for a run the only group buff they are bringing is Battle fury. It is ok but nothing to write home about. My SW combat build only uses Longstrider which the way my rotation works doesn't really get applied with any frequency. So GWF and SW Combat really are only bringing pure dmg to a group. Where as SW brings considerable buffs and debuffs for the whole group. It would be completely ridiculous to allow any class to bring a ton of utility to the group and make them amazing dps at the same time.
Also you can not put 2/3 dps in a group and go run FBI/MSVA/ToNG and have a fair and even comparison. There is way to many variables,.. SW is able to run as a Main dmg dealer in a 4 support group and clear ToNG,... we did it last night. I challenge any decent SW go as dmg with a GF, OP, 2DC in ToNG and tell me that you can't do it. Who cares if a GWF or HR as main dps can do 5-10 min faster per run, again we don't bring any utility to the group.
Your reply shows yet again why other warlocks and I have pointed out that people who don't even play the class/don't know about it should refrain from commenting on the state of it as for one it doesn't make sense (how would you comment on something you don't know? That would be like me commenting on the flavor of Japanese rice without ever tasting it) and 2 there's the risk devs may chose to listen to wrong feedback from people who don't even play the class over that of people who actually do.
No, no and no. There are 2 paragons, hellbringer and soulbinder, the latter is the personal dps one that brings virtually no party utility and if we speak of overall perfomance, it is inferior to the other damage dealers, Natsu runs with top tier people from other classes and the most powerful SW he knows cannot beat the best TR he knows as well, needless to say what happens vs top tier GWF/HR/CW. Hellbringer is the dps + buffs pargon, its party utility is not a match for that of properly played and built MoF rene CW and GF/OP/DC, GF can outdps SW as well (here is more like "which class can't outdps SW?" as most do) or at the very least give it a run for its meal. That paragon is taking a 10% dps loss in mod 12b (mod 10.5 one was up to a 40% dps nerf for HB) yet here you are making it sound as if current dps is what it should be because of "what's brought to the table" which is inferior to what other classes offer.
Oh, most people care about the damage dealer more than you think, that's why being a SW on live isn't precisely awesome, queue/group leaders know most classes do dps noticeably better therefore are more likely to inv other people over the poor warlock. Not being a SW I don't think you know what it is like. Yeah SW can be in a T9G group as damage dealer but people rather have other classes as they're better (mod 12b worsens this by nerfing HB damage)
As you aren't a SW you really don't know and understand the limitations the class has and as a consequence (while I think you don't mean to), all you are achieving is to sabotage this thread with your feedback and to get that of us Scourge Warlocks and reliable testers like @rjc9000 made look like the state of SW is actually good and as such no actions should be taken to bring it in line with the other damage dealers. Don't take it the wrong way but I'd really appreciate if we leave it at that, if you were to carry on you'd most likely continue to state things that aren't correct and who knows what else.
@dragonsbane3 , running any dungeon with 1 dps and all support is not an indicator of the health of a class, as my 15 month old playing a drunk naked halfling wielding a rotten banana could clear any dungeon in the game with that party.
Just my .02
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
Saying a HR doesn't bring buffs is hilarious. A SW bringing buffs is losing DPS just as a HR bringing buffs. HR has tons of group buffs. Please step down
@dragonbane3, Perhaps if you want to go and start a post on either a GWF or an HR or even a CW and give your points as to what needs to be done on each you can find support for the things they also need to make them more team friendly . This is about the current state of the SW and after all the things that was found to be not WAI they now are at a place that they need to have an increase to the things they have that are just too weak to call them a Striker. Even our casting speed is to slow should at least be as fast as an CW. The only other casting class in the game as an example. Half the time everything is already dead before I can even finish my cast attack lol. That would at least be one good step in the correct direction. I am a HB Fury and after mod 6 gutted our primary defense of L.S. we had to wait 2 years before we was ever given another defensive ability other than the run for your life one we had. So at this point we have two defensive skills and neither of them are a dodge. So its really is about time for them to bring some striker back to this Striker class. Thank you.
Look I agree with you if you are trying to compare SW vs GWF or SW vs HR it can't come close to us in pure dps. But what you have to look at is what you are bring to the table. As a GWF, whos is trying to max dmg for a run the only group buff they are bringing is Battle fury. It is ok but nothing to write home about. My SW combat build only uses Longstrider which the way my rotation works doesn't really get applied with any frequency. So GWF and SW Combat really are only bringing pure dmg to a group. Where as SW brings considerable buffs and debuffs for the whole group. It would be completely ridiculous to allow any class to bring a ton of utility to the group and make them amazing dps at the same time.
Also you can not put 2/3 dps in a group and go run FBI/MSVA/ToNG and have a fair and even comparison. There is way to many variables,.. SW is able to run as a Main dmg dealer in a 4 support group and clear ToNG,... we did it last night. I challenge any decent SW go as dmg with a GF, OP, 2DC in ToNG and tell me that you can't do it. Who cares if a GWF or HR as main dps can do 5-10 min faster per run, again we don't bring any utility to the group.
Damnationlock is dead, end of story. Needs a huge overhaul.
Templock works decently well at its intended role: It does heals well and does some nice DPS on the side., But, it's not a full DPS spec and can't be compared to the likes of GWF or HR or SS Thaum CW.
Fury is supposed to be the SW specialty, but there are some noticeable issues...
From what I know, SB Fury requires a bit of setup before its heavy hitting DoTs get going... but that's an issue in a speed burn metagame...
SB Fury is also has the issue of only being pure DPS, as unlike HB Fury, it provides no team utlity. Even some other "pure" DPS classes like GWF and Combat HR actually HAVE team utility, while having the same, if not much better damage output.
Combine that with how complicated SW is to learn, and why bother trying to do SB Fury when you can invest into GWF/Trapper or Combat HR/Thaum CW and get much better results?
HB Fury trades some potential DPS output for having less setup time and having some better team utility. This is great and all, but given the nerf to Owlbear cub, HB Fury won't be able to do the "good DPS with some team utility" as well as MoF Thaum/SS Rene or Trapper/Combat HR using Thorn Ward and Longstriders...
There is a clear reason why SWs of the caliber as @greyjay1, @flensburger99, and @tom#6998 have scrapped their SWs... and it's NOT because they refuse to git gud...
@rjc9000 of course you're a reliable tester, wise and blue-haired good sir xd
Your comment on SW being a class supported by/dependent on bugs is spot on, fixes to them without compensation have left the class in the pitiful state it is now.
To comment on your points:
- Soul puppet is so hit and miss is not funny. Build can do something on static fights but with puppet not benefiting from buffs anymore, yeah...
- Not only templock does have inferior dps (heck, fury does) to other strikers, besides healing, its dps buffing capacity is barely better than fury which results in teams often being better off with the latter over the former.
- Ya about SB. The 2 most common issues are either boss gets melted before SB gains momentun or game mechanics continuously interrupt the fight (like Nostura going to portals or FBI turtle getting back to the water if team can't defeat it in 1 go). Virtually no party utility and overall perfomance is inferior to other strikers because of noticeably lower aoe damage and the 2 aforementioned issues regarding SB's need to set up damage so then can proceeded to attack with... dots meanwhile the other classes be like "yo SB SW we killed boss/took a huge chunck of its hp already, start dpsing already ffs!"
- Fury HB will have an even worse party utility - personal dps in mod 12b indeed and on top of that add things like Creeping Death doesn't work with GoH (with right set up, feats and weapon ench it's not the bad power people think it is, it'd be something worth talking about/recording if it could proc CD)
As for both HB and SB, Creeping Death needs and excessive amount of time to deal full damage, meaning:
- For trahs mobs in a melt team it barely can do anything - For bosses who get melted/fightd interrupted there's not enough time to deal full damage.
Ya, when absolute best players scrap their toons to play other class or quit the game that speaks volumes as of what's the current state of Scourge Warlock. As if devs ignoring us isn't bad enough, we get people with no basic understanding of the class come here/SW-relared threads and saying that it is well/deals top tier dps.
Comments
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
But, until one of us gets reworked, we should get some TR/SW groups together. Maybe we could play Mario cart or something...
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
You can't be held back by common sense, right? Inb4 someone turns into GWF due to blue shell...
> I'm sorry to see SW join us TRs on the isle of misfit classes. Us TRs arrived here 8 months ago. But, y'all have to get in line for a class rework. We were here first! We were here when you all did bajillions in Damage.
>
> But, until one of us gets reworked, we should get some TR/SW groups together. Maybe we could play Mario cart or something...
Us SW's have already been thru the rework. TR's were not first... sw's are unfinished... they fixed most of the bugs giving us damage but never compensated the damage loss. Just like they promised to finish reworking the temptation tree after they reworked lifesteal. Which still goes untouched. Both classes need some love, but to say one deserves it more than the other is just flaming... and doesnt help either class...
[The Legendary Outlaws] (Guildhall 20)
It'd be cool to make SW and TR teams for sure, but for neverwinter lol
I guess we can only wait for a rework soon (tm) Someone mentioned that a CM "believes" SW still is "viable" (if that means being the worst damage dealer by far then sure...) and whoever that is, let me asure you that statement is downright laughable and couldn't be any more off the game's current state.
I think that both classes have something in common that doesn't precisely help with their reputation and it's, at least on console, most players are pretty bad, some are decent and very very few ones stand out. The stigma against pve SW and TR shall continue, to think that SW now has it worse in that regard is not precisely encouraging to play as one, no wonder so many people are retiring their locks, on top of that devs do nothing to fix the class...
@terramak @asterdahl @rgutscheradev @noworries#8859 @kreatyve @nitocris83
The most that would have been said by the CM is that the devs believe SWs are viable even without this damage source (and her job is to report to the devs that players disagree, and she's DOING THAT). She doesn't make decisions about gameplay, and it does everyone a disservice to repeat information that's inaccurate or incomplete.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
So even with IC damage cut (in half is it?) by the next mod they sure do seem to have some EXCELLENT top tier single target damage right now and that will still be possible afterwards.
It seems to me you can't gauge the OVERALL DPS nerf by current gear, as that will need to be all changed back to high crit.
As to existing balance issues, they're not likely to fix them 100% at any time, so there comes a point where they have to say "let's try this" re: another class. They can't reasonably hold a position of no new classes ever, until existing class balance is perfect. They're not ever going to say "ok, good enough!" and completely stop working on class balancing either.
Another reason cited for not releasing a new class was the burden of alting, which they're also working hard at reducing. So they're getting into a better position for it with each improvement.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Don't let this go live, ever.
I have never, ever heard someone say "SWs are too powerful". This isn't like the Bondings change, they were legitimately too powerful, SWs are perfectly fine in general as is the Owlbear Cub and its interactions with their powers.
If this is about it being a "must have" companion then do the intelligent thing; put it up for sale in the Trade Bar store at Uncommon rarity just like other companions or even better, Epic Rarity on the Zen market.
If these changes go live, no SW will continue to be played, I guarantee it.
So just don't. There is nothing wrong with the companion as it currently is, just leave it alone.
If you don't believe how powerful the SWs were, check youtube for videos where they solo'ed the OLD Castle Never. Most of those guys have left the game since then but you may still be able to view their videos.
I don't disagree that SWs need some dev love but to say that they were never OP is incorrect.
EDIT: Finally found Sinbad's video - https://youtube.com/watch?v=H7qCko15YSk
Anyways, Lets see what we have with current warlock case..
Lot of them quiting. Had lot of sw old timers in my friend list, so either they quit game or abandon warlock class. And thats not about mid tear player, I don't count them at all. I count only high/top end ones. Last my known Temptation warlock which played as templock since mod 4 quited game about 15 days ago.
I don't know much about fernuu, because each time I check friend list I see his account offline....
So, players quiting SW, means class is terrible.. And thats bring to 2 options.
1) developers(cryptic staff) start conversation with us (SW community) and start work on this problem.
2) Let warlocks extinct,
But with option 2 will cause extra effect. It will proves that staff not capable to handle one class, and brings question can they do handle others too.
Which eventually downgrade game. Players start quit game, which eventually lead to game termination.
Sure lot of would say it's nonsense, but in such manner/way died lot of games.
So it's up for you Cryptic what u want. Keep game going, or u want to drill more holes in sinking ship.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
The most powerful SB SW I've ever seen and run with on xb1 is almost done done with neverwinter and out of the few people in my friends list who play SW most of them switched to another class already (HR, GWF and DC being the most common converts) or flat out quit the game as the class keeps getting nerfed, the OBC changes of mod 12b killed their will to play that class and I'm pretty skeptical about it myself, the thought of taking another significant blow to dps yet again is very discouraging.
The reason people believe GWF's beat out HR's is that at lower Ilvls HR's are not able to hit all 3 caps/break points that is needed to change from a "standard" rotation to a "priority" based one and even takes one a trapper'ish style of play. ATM with BiS gear, soloing i'm able to hit almost 100k power, add to that Arpen/Crit caps. The dmg is insane, then add us to a group with an OP and 2 DCs hitting the 300k power range and 0 cooldowns on our encounters,.... you could argue we are rather broken. The sad thing there is we still have a lot of skills and interactions that are just plagued with bugs and are broke. If they fixed it all it would just make the gap that much worse. I expect to see a straight out dmg nerf in mod 13. Especially since they had already said they wanted TR's to be the king of single target dps.
Now on that topic. you can go over to the TR class forums and see all the posts about how broken they are. Then go check out the CW forums and you see the same thing there. It seems the avg TR & CW players believe they are falling behind and can not be competitive for dps spots in groups these days. While tbh a lot of it is learn to play issues. How can you explain CW's like Sharpedge, Fredom and a few others and certain TR's that hang right in there with the top HRs and in some circumstances beat us flat out. If the classes are that broken they wouldn't be able to. So do they have some secret information that no others have on their respective classes? are they cheating in some way? That is a no and a no. It comes down to the fact that they have mastered their class, have a full understanding of the game, mechanics, builds. It is called "skill gap". Knowing what classes to bring, skills to use & when to time debuffs & buffs in burst windows to max out damage goes a long way.
I would love to know if the Dev's have a combat simulator program that could run all the classes and skills through aoe/st sims. I'd wager that most of the classes would be a lot closer than the general public thinks.
Unless you play the class you won't know the limitations it has and yeah all classes have their bugs and such but if SW is in the state it is now is because the amount of limitations, underpowered skills and outdated mechanics it has makes it be worst damage dealer class by leaps and bounds.
People state GWF is underpowered? Wickedduck, Unforgiven and others disagree and prove that wrong.
People state CW is underpowered? Sharpedge and Freedom disagree and prove that wrong.
People state SW is underpowered? The best players in all platforms agree, general consensus is SW can deal decent dps but is not a match for the other damage dealers. Now you see the difference? Also, any BiS players and/or players with superior understanding of the game who ran with BiS SWs agree with that statement as well, the fact that people like @thefabricant @rjc9000 @sirjimbofrancis and others agree Scourge Warlock isn't perfoming that good speaks volumes as of how terrible the state of the class is, they know their stuff and that translates to their toons' perfomance so their statements are reliable.
I could ask you to go with your best rotation, build, items, buffed and potted to the moon trying your best to dps and challenge any SW to beat you, that would quickly show you the class is in desperate need for a rework.
It is bad enough that most feedback we give falls on deaf ears so please, don't give devs the excuse to disregard it by saying things about a class you do not main or even play, if SW was "closer to other classes than general public thinks" people wouldn't be retiring their toons, switching to another class or flat out quitting the game. It would also help if you don't reply to off topic posts as it derails the thread, most of what you said was about HR and GWF which have nothing to do here.
Also you can not put 2/3 dps in a group and go run FBI/MSVA/ToNG and have a fair and even comparison. There is way to many variables,.. SW is able to run as a Main dmg dealer in a 4 support group and clear ToNG,... we did it last night. I challenge any decent SW go as dmg with a GF, OP, 2DC in ToNG and tell me that you can't do it. Who cares if a GWF or HR as main dps can do 5-10 min faster per run, again we don't bring any utility to the group.
Your reply shows yet again why other warlocks and I have pointed out that people who don't even play the class/don't know about it should refrain from commenting on the state of it as for one it doesn't make sense (how would you comment on something you don't know? That would be like me commenting on the flavor of Japanese rice without ever tasting it) and 2 there's the risk devs may chose to listen to wrong feedback from people who don't even play the class over that of people who actually do.
No, no and no. There are 2 paragons, hellbringer and soulbinder, the latter is the personal dps one that brings virtually no party utility and if we speak of overall perfomance, it is inferior to the other damage dealers, Natsu runs with top tier people from other classes and the most powerful SW he knows cannot beat the best TR he knows as well, needless to say what happens vs top tier GWF/HR/CW. Hellbringer is the dps + buffs pargon, its party utility is not a match for that of properly played and built MoF rene CW and GF/OP/DC, GF can outdps SW as well (here is more like "which class can't outdps SW?" as most do) or at the very least give it a run for its meal. That paragon is taking a 10% dps loss in mod 12b (mod 10.5 one was up to a 40% dps nerf for HB) yet here you are making it sound as if current dps is what it should be because of "what's brought to the table" which is inferior to what other classes offer.
Oh, most people care about the damage dealer more than you think, that's why being a SW on live isn't precisely awesome, queue/group leaders know most classes do dps noticeably better therefore are more likely to inv other people over the poor warlock. Not being a SW I don't think you know what it is like. Yeah SW can be in a T9G group as damage dealer but people rather have other classes as they're better (mod 12b worsens this by nerfing HB damage)
As you aren't a SW you really don't know and understand the limitations the class has and as a consequence (while I think you don't mean to), all you are achieving is to sabotage this thread with your feedback and to get that of us Scourge Warlocks and reliable testers like @rjc9000 made look like the state of SW is actually good and as such no actions should be taken to bring it in line with the other damage dealers. Don't take it the wrong way but I'd really appreciate if we leave it at that, if you were to carry on you'd most likely continue to state things that aren't correct and who knows what else.
Just my .02
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
I'm a reliable tester?Is it bad that I don't even seriously play SW, have tested a couple of things on SW, and can already tell that SW is a class supported by bugs?
The devs have been fixing the bugs on SW, which is great and all, but they haven't really compensated with giving SW actual working DPS stuff...
- Damnationlock is dead, end of story. Needs a huge overhaul.
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- Templock works decently well at its intended role: It does heals well and does some nice DPS on the side., But, it's not a full DPS spec and can't be compared to the likes of GWF or HR or SS Thaum CW.
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- Fury is supposed to be the SW specialty, but there are some noticeable issues...
From what I know, SB Fury requires a bit of setup before its heavy hitting DoTs get going... but that's an issue in a speed burn metagame...SB Fury is also has the issue of only being pure DPS, as unlike HB Fury, it provides no team utlity. Even some other "pure" DPS classes like GWF and Combat HR actually HAVE team utility, while having the same, if not much better damage output.
Combine that with how complicated SW is to learn, and why bother trying to do SB Fury when you can invest into GWF/Trapper or Combat HR/Thaum CW and get much better results?
HB Fury trades some potential DPS output for having less setup time and having some better team utility. This is great and all, but given the nerf to Owlbear cub, HB Fury won't be able to do the "good DPS with some team utility" as well as MoF Thaum/SS Rene or Trapper/Combat HR using Thorn Ward and Longstriders...
There is a clear reason why SWs of the caliber as @greyjay1, @flensburger99, and @tom#6998 have scrapped their SWs... and it's NOT because they refuse to git gud...
(My $0.02)
Your comment on SW being a class supported by/dependent on bugs is spot on, fixes to them without compensation have left the class in the pitiful state it is now.
To comment on your points:
- Soul puppet is so hit and miss is not funny. Build can do something on static fights but with puppet not benefiting from buffs anymore, yeah...
- Not only templock does have inferior dps (heck, fury does) to other strikers, besides healing, its dps buffing capacity is barely better than fury which results in teams often being better off with the latter over the former.
- Ya about SB. The 2 most common issues are either boss gets melted before SB gains momentun or game mechanics continuously interrupt the fight (like Nostura going to portals or FBI turtle getting back to the water if team can't defeat it in 1 go). Virtually no party utility and overall perfomance is inferior to other strikers because of noticeably lower aoe damage and the 2 aforementioned issues regarding SB's need to set up damage so then can proceeded to attack with... dots meanwhile the other classes be like "yo SB SW we killed boss/took a huge chunck of its hp already, start dpsing already ffs!"
- Fury HB will have an even worse party utility - personal dps in mod 12b indeed and on top of that add things like Creeping Death doesn't work with GoH (with right set up, feats and weapon ench it's not the bad power people think it is, it'd be something worth talking about/recording if it could proc CD)
As for both HB and SB, Creeping Death needs and excessive amount of time to deal full damage, meaning:
- For trahs mobs in a melt team it barely can do anything
- For bosses who get melted/fightd interrupted there's not enough time to deal full damage.
Ya, when absolute best players scrap their toons to play other class or quit the game that speaks volumes as of what's the current state of Scourge Warlock. As if devs ignoring us isn't bad enough, we get people with no basic understanding of the class come here/SW-relared threads and saying that it is well/deals top tier dps.