Scourge Warlock's DPS reduced 50% on Preview

senseiwasd

This keeps getting misplaced, or something...

Dead Owlbear Cubs Aren't Much Fun

Encounter        CritRate    Hits      IC/Hits
Dreadtheft       33%         24        5
BoVA             27%         11        4
Pillar of Power  --          16        8

So now that you've added a cooldown timer that dramatically reduces Infantile Compensation, which makes up roughly 70% of many endgame Scourge Warlock's DPS, are you going to compensate them in some way?

I don't blame you for nerfing it, as really, it was stupid to have every late-game SW's viability depend entirely on having this one Companion, but you gotta compensate them in some way. Despite having the best heals in the game, moderate DPS, and massive debuffs, no one wants them... Because healing doesn't much matter in a game with epileptic flashing healthbars, the debuffs aren't exactly noticeable, and even with the Cub, no endgame SW can compete with any other endgame DPS (certainly not GWF/HR).

Cutting their DPS in half doesn't help that. As it is on Preview - this is a dead class.

I suspect you're going to have to raise their base damage multiplier, up some feats, and triple the damage from Creeping Death to allow them to catch up. For most Scourge Warlocks, this is a 50% DPS nerf, or more. I can't even keep one Target Dummy flat on Preview, while I can do that indefinitely with three on Live, even without Bonding Stones.

...Also don't think we failed to notice that you nerfed the Stalwart Lion's Radiant damage by causing it to no longer share with the party as the help-tip describes.

*sigh* And in general, judging by the changes lately, please understand this fundamental game development principle:

There is no need to take things away from players, when you can give them, or their enemies, something else. Granting new opportunities is fine, but nerfing existing advantages is tantamount to thievery, and is responded to as such for a reason.

gabrieldourden

Seconded. Temptation Warlocks still have a small niche in the game only because of the Cub. Before nerfing it you should review them (they were neglected in the previous SW balance pass according to the main dev doing it).

zzzzzz

> @senseiwasd said:
>Granting new opportunities is fine, but nerfing existing advantages is tantamount to thievery, and is responded to as such for a reason.
It really is thievery, when it's reducing the value of things that someone has to pay for to acquire - such as the Owlbear Cub or the Bonding Stones.

If Nissan ran around in the night, and replaced every Maxima's V6 with a V4, under the premise it had too much acceleration, I think there'd be criminal liability involved, or, similar to what happened in EVE, at least a lawsuit.

Not threatening, just saying, you are making people angry when you could be making them happy, and still achieve the same goals.

x90210

Think this is yet another round of "Clear out all the vets and hope for new blood", like they had a few years back that made me stop playing for years -- they tend to forget it's vets who spend/convert all that Zen on and for their alts, and vets aren't going to invest in dead classes like the SW's for alts. Though requiring 12,000+ Item Level, on top of unlocks, seems hardly friendly to the fresh blood, especially given how narrow the content is for them, and makes it so there's even less reason to make more alts.

With this removing the SW from the field, there's really only three useful classes. So the good news is, no need to ever buy more than one character slot.

jiubiizeekk

Sadly the SW fourms wont get much attention because no one is commenting on them. But SW really needs some help and owlbear cub was that help.... Our feats need to be buffed tremendously.
Im about to load up preview for a Check but im dreading it.....

mamalion1234

i just tested owlbear on cw and i dont see any cooldown at all maybe they changed your pillar?

kiraskytower

mamalion1234 said:

i just tested owlbear on cw and i dont see any cooldown at all maybe they changed your pillar?

I don't think they changed the uptime for this, more likely they just kept it from triggering every tick on certain warlock powers. For most other classes (like CW) the owlbear happens once when a power is triggered, not on every tick the power does damage. Sounds like they just fixed this so it works for SW like it does for CW or any other class.

godly3vil

You sure the damage reduction you are seeing isn't due to having a lot less power now that bondings have been nerfed?

x90210

They added a cooldown to Infantile Compensation. It normally procs for every tick of Pillar of Power, as well as for every non-critical tick of Dreadtheft and Blades of Vanquished armies. Dreadtheft, being SW's bread and butter, is drastically affected. Where normally OP would be seeing at least 16 IC ticks, they are seeing 5.

Icy Terrain ticks at about half the rate of Pillar of Power, so it may be unaffected.

x90210

kiraskytower said:

I don't think they changed the uptime for this, more likely they just kept it from triggering every tick on certain warlock powers. For most other classes (like CW) the owlbear happens once when a power is triggered, not on every tick the power does damage. Sounds like they just fixed this so it works for SW like it does for CW or any other class.

The problem with this is the Owlbear Cub is the only thing that makes the SW viable as a DPS class, or allows Templocks to continue to dish out moderate DPS and still heal. This is why every SW over 10K has one. Without it, they are a junk class.

It would, of course, be better to boost them in some other way, rather than leaving the Owlbear Cub as it is, but the modification would have to be rather severe, as like OP said, it is not uncommon for a 10-14K IL SW to rely on Infantile Compensation for 70% of his damage.

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terrasight

Well... let's see...

I'm a 16,4k SW... took much blood, time & money to get there. BUT... if my ViP runs out...I don't buy a new one. I'll not quit, but do a looong look how the things are going in the future for SW.

mat44444

I think it might be related to the changes to bonding stones - basically you seem to be confirming what most people are saying; the changes just stop people playing and having fun, and introduce a retro grind system to get back to where you are now

jiubiizeekk

Cool downs and cast times are a big issue. If there were two options for buffing up SW, it would be to increase our weapon damage Or to Decrease our cool downs and cast times, it would actually be pretty simple for the devs to do... And of course now would be the perfect time with all the changes.

I look at it like this. Our damage as a striker should be slightly below GWF Not by much considering we have the squishyness of a TR(or even squishier), we attack at range But we also have more to loose if we die. Our damage comes from stacks of feats and dailies, a GWF could build full stacks within 3-4 seconds, where as thats the time it feels like it takes to cast our daily.

wodewick

x90210 said:

Think this is yet another round of "Clear out all the vets and hope for new blood", like they had a few years back that made me stop playing for years -- they tend to forget it's vets who spend/convert all that Zen on and for their alts, and vets aren't going to invest in dead classes like the SW's for alts. Though requiring 12,000+ Item Level, on top of unlocks, seems hardly friendly to the fresh blood, especially given how narrow the content is for them, and makes it so there's even less reason to make more alts.

With this removing the SW from the field, there's really only three useful classes. So the good news is, no need to ever buy more than one character slot.

I just want to add my voice, to the many concerned SW's. I might also say, that i don't consider myself a veteran and have only (relatively) recently started playing SW.

I have spent a fair bit of cash recently, all focussed around my SW build, thanks for that !!!

So, you're upsetting the vets and the newer players who i guess are more likely to spend hard earned dollars..

senseiwasd

I'll do you better than facts - how about some numbers?

VS.

VS.

VS.

(Each Panel Links to More Details)

That adds up to 1.2 Million Damage in Mod12 vs. 678K damage on Preview - so I lied, a 44% DPS loss.

In these tests, I dumped the Guild Power boon, and unsummoned the Companions. Since I can't turn off the Guild Boons entirely, I had to switch to ARP on the Mod12 Server, and unslot Prince of Hell for Shadow Walk on Mod12, but kept PoH on Preview and allowed the Preview copy of the toon an Augment with some ARP. This gives them both about 60% Resistance Ignored, and about 24K Power. PoP is hitting two Target Dummies - all other Encounters are hitting one. This is a SW with 13K Item Level.

I did not use Eldritch Blast, this is a side effect of the Mirage Blade clones.

The full rotation ratio remains about the same, the At-Wills adding maybe 10% more damage. Creeping Death in Fury mode adding maybe 15% more, and the Soul Puppet in Damnation Mode, adding about 20% more.

Nothing I can do can compensate for that IC loss, not even a full Fury Critical build with a 75% Crit rate, and 185% Crit Severity (I respecced and bought one of those 1 copper Transcendent Dread Enchantments on Preview to test that, not even close).

Copy of the actual ACT file linked: here.
(If you don't have ACT, get it here before they disable it.)

And if you want a single image version of that to share with your SW friends, you can get that: here.

I *wish* it was 25% of my damage, but for most well optimized SW's, it's much closer to 65%.

Despite having descent DPS, the best heals in the game, and a whole lotta debuffs, I have trouble finding employment for my SW in late game Dungeons/Trials as he is *now*. Cut our DPS and thus our heals in half, and, well, into the trash the SW goes. (And rumor has it stacking debuffs are nerfed as well - so what use is this supposedly DPS class?)

tom

i hate to say it but if the owlbear is 65% of your dps sws dmg then u are doing smth wrong.


its more like 15-20% of dps as u can see in this ACT log of an FBI run

https://imgur.com/a/NsuYO

senseiwasd

tom#6998 said:

i hate to say it but if the owlbear is 65% of your dps sws dmg then u are doing smth wrong.


its more like 15-20% of dps as u can see in this ACT log of an FBI run

https://imgur.com/a/NsuYO

Granted, double DC was inflating power a bit, and I still made 3rd place DPS, losing to a GWF of the same IL and beast-mode GF of ~16K, and, as always, the #1 heals, which I give up about 20% of my DPS for.

tom

senseiwasd said:

tom#6998 said:

i hate to say it but if the owlbear is 65% of your dps sws dmg then u are doing smth wrong.


its more like 15-20% of dps as u can see in this ACT log of an FBI run

https://imgur.com/a/NsuYO

Granted, double DC was inflating power a bit, and I still made 3rd place DPS, losing to a GWF of the same IL and beast-mode GF of ~16K, and, as always, the #1 heals, which I give up about 20% of my DPS for.

ofc if you only use spells that dont do dmg the owlbear will look powerfull...
your not playing a dps sw your playing heal/buff/debuff

senseiwasd

Yes, but Temptlock heals are dependent on damage - cutting the damage in half cut heals in half. So now he's doubly useless. Moderate DPS+Great Heals vs. Bottom DPS+Moderate Heals. (And I assume you are referring to the clerics, as all my spells do DPS - BoVA/PoP/and especially DF.)

...and I have a DPS loadout - that too is cut in half. It might be ~20% stronger, but cut the overall damage in half, and +20% of Bottom DPS is still Bottom DPS.

In mod12, I generally put out half to three quarters of the GWF's in my same tier (they more or less set the bar), clerics or not, which is reasonable, even if heals don't mean much. In DPS mode I can keep up with the in situations where they have trouble closing on moving targets (like Drufi) but that's about it.

On preview, I doubt I can even keep up with the DC's DPS.

tom

senseiwasd said:

Yes, but Temptlock heals are dependent on damage - cutting the damage in half cut heals in half. So now he's doubly useless. Moderate DPS+Great Heals vs. Bottom DPS+Moderate Heals. (And I assume you are referring to the clerics, as all my spells do DPS - BoVA/PoP/and especially DF.)

...and I have a DPS loadout - that too is cut in half. It might be ~20% stronger, but cut the overall damage in half, and +20% of Bottom DPS is still Bottom DPS.

In mod12, I generally put out half to three quarters of the GWF's in my same tier (they more or less set the bar), clerics or not, which is reasonable, even if heals don't mean much. In DPS mode I can keep up with the in situations where they have trouble closing on moving targets (like Drufi) but that's about it.

On preview, I doubt I can even keep up with the DC's DPS.

when i say u use powers that dont deal dmg im speakin of DT, BovA etc. A dps HB SW would use stuff like Firy Bolt, Arms of Hadar or killing Flames etc.

When using the "right" skills so your dps warlock actually does dps then Owlbear is doing about 15-20% of the SWs dmg. So if you cut that in half the dps Warlocks lose about 10% in dmg (which is still a bad thing).

EDIT: at this point the SW needs another overall Rework it seems

senseiwasd

Fiery bolt does nice burst damage once in awhile, but that's about it, and over 20 seconds, still does about 1/4th the damage of even IC enhanced BoVA. I love Arms of Hadar with its interrupt, and I do miss it, but the damage is negligible next to those powers with the IC, as it doesn't proc any at all. Killing flames, which also doesn't proc any, has been nerfed to heck and back (yet another victim of PVP balancing messing with PVE play). Really, no other powers compare to the DPS those and PoP can do when optimized and combined with the IC. Take that away, and the SW has nothing left to add to the party, especially with debuffs reportedly failing to stack.

But yeah, it does need a major rework, and the SW shouldn't have to rely on that pet. Problem is, I kinda doubt they are going to do that before this Owlbear Cub nerf hits, and soon after, the SW unemployment line is going to run for miles. If anything, they should at least hold off on that nerf until the SW rework is complete, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

hadestemplar

Seems Cryptic staff went of easy way..
Why bother and rework, after all it cost time and money..
So they nerf warlock to point all quit this class. and thats lead to point no one will complain about warlocks HAMSTER performance.
No one complains = all happy,
It's easy and cheap way to solve problem....


p.s I can bet,, we will have extra nerf, it's just what they do.

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jaime4312

So for us high crit build SWs and as per @tom#6998 's ACT logs we can expect more or less a 10% damage loss... wow, we are already weaker than the other classes and now we get yet another nerf...

Tom, do you think that this nerf pretty much forces us to switch to soulbinder? The damage loss for HB should significantly close the gap in aoe damage and widen it on single target in favour of SB, right? If that's the case that'd be horrible, I cannot stand soulbinder in general, I only use it if necessary SW needs a rework for both paragons, too many things about the class that don't fit the game's burst friendly mechanics plus our damage is lower than that of the other classes

@terramak @asterdahl @rgutscheradev

Guys seriously, you can't let that nerf make it to live without compensating for it, SW is in a very bad spot now and you're going to weaken the class even further.

@nitocris83 and @zebular guys please help us get the devs to notice this, if they compare SW with other classes on preview, assuming they all are properly built, should show that Scourge Warlock is overnerfed and that is in dire need for a rework.

hadestemplar

@jaime4312#3760 ,
If u want developers attention, Then are 2 ways.
1) pretend u play with any other than SW class.. after all during Devs Redit QA event.. All questions related with SW where ignored as they keep doing it for many modules.
2) make Vodoo dolls, and start stab them. <

Any other ways are futile.

tom

jaime4312#3760 said:

So for us high crit build SWs and as per @tom#6998 's ACT logs we can expect more or less a 10% damage loss... wow, we are already weaker than the other classes and now we get yet another nerf...

Tom, do you think that this nerf pretty much forces us to switch to soulbinder? The damage loss for HB should significantly close the gap in aoe damage and widen it on single target in favour of SB, right? If that's the case that'd be horrible, I cannot stand soulbinder in general, I only use it if necessary SW needs a rework for both paragons, too many things about the class that don't fit the game's burst friendly mechanics plus our damage is lower than that of the other classes

@terramak @asterdahl @rgutscheradev

Guys seriously, you can't let that nerf make it to live without compensating for it, SW is in a very bad spot now and you're going to weaken the class even further.

@nitocris83 and @zebular guys please help us get the devs to notice this, if they compare SW with other classes on preview, assuming they all are properly built, should show that Scourge Warlock is overnerfed and that is in dire need for a rework.

for dps SB might be better but considering the dps a SW can put out u might still want to go HB cause the buff for the other dpses might be more then the dps difference between u playing SB or HB.

regardless of that i think SW needs alot of buffs and or a rework but... one can only hope

jaime4312

bloodyspamer said:

@jaime4312#3760 ,
If u want developers attention, Then are 2 ways.
1) pretend u play with any other than SW class.. after all during Devs Redit QA event.. All questions related with SW where ignored as they keep doing it for many modules.
2) make Vodoo dolls, and start stab them. <

Any other ways are futile.

@bloodyspam I wouldn't be surprised if they keep ignoring us, they have been doing that for a long time now.

@tom I see what you mean, I guess depending on what your teammates classes/builds are one will have to go HB or SB.

I hear you mate, we are totally overnerfed as it is and now they're making us even weaker

tilrod2

I think the changes to the owlbear cub is fine, because I think it was never intendet that one class profits more from the cub than other. Since the rework of the owlbear the SW was the last class, which Encounter multiproc his effect. That this update hurt you so much is a bad side effect of a good change.

Sorry for my bad english, it isnt my first language.

earlgreybeard

my sw needs equal damage ability to the other classes to stay alive especially in Chult.. no decent dps=no life steal= death

This is going to suck big time if it makes it to live.