Yes but this isn't toning things down a bit, this is a 32% reduction in their capability (let's not forget it was nearly a 64% reduction!).
The other big issue is if you are going to improve the other runestones but not enough so they represent a challenge to bondings being the only real option, what worth did the increase on others actually have?
You know, if you'd put them on an equal footing you'd have a decent argument, but I researched them with a view to doing this on my main character and it didn't balance out. I really gave it some serious consideration.
As such, augments remain as they have been for two years, the beginners choice or a fallback for certain fights where a companion is a liability.
I actually understand the point about evening out the effectiveness of gear, I really do. But to my mind the right way to fix things would've been:
remove the power sharing mechanic from bondings change DC & OP mechanics to balance the loss of buffs (flat damage boosters similar to ITF)
And there you go. You've removed the overpowered nature of Bondings at no cost to players, compensated player stats by altered mechanics and nobody gets into riot mode.
You're then still able to bring out your new enchantments and improve the other runestones, everyone's happy, no loss of players, you've created a win-win where your objectives are met at the same time as players not receiving a loss and being expected to pay for the privilege.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Just a quick note to those who keep referencing 4x Power Share through companions. That 4x comes from what used to be 1x direct + 2.85x through bondings + 0.15x on legendary active.
That 4x number isn't accurate anymore right now, because that 0.15x Legendary Active got increased (from 0.16x with 1 orange pet, all the way to 0.31x with 5 orange pets). So on live right now, we are looking at 4.01x to 4.16x power share amplified through bondings (assuming you hit both pet and owner with all sources of power share).
Be advised that in the new system, this is getting reduced because of the bonding nerf. Looking at 3x R12 bondings in the new system, we go from 2.85x to 1.65x. If you manage to get to 3x R14 bondings, then you get to edge back up to 1.95x.
For example, in the new system, with 1 legendary and 3x R12 it comes out to 1x + 1.65x + 0.16x = 2.81x power share. So (4.01 - 2.81)/4.01 = 0.29925187032 ~ 30% reduction in power being shared vs. live.
And at max, with 5 legendary and 3x R14 it comes out to 1x + 1.95x + 0.31x = 3.26x power share. So (4.16 - 3.26)/4.16 = 0.21634615384 ~ 18% reduction in max possible power being shared vs. live.
So I'd say it's more accurate to say we are looking at ~3x power share under the new mechanics. That's still very noticeable, but definitely less than on liver right now.
Additionally, unless they make a change to this (and I think that they should), the duration = cooldown means that you need to exactly time AA (and possibly BoB) in order to get it in place right before bonding procs. For those of you that remember the days of fast-procing bonding companions, we're taking a step back in that direction again.
My point is that power sharing is getting a pretty big haircut with these changes. It's still very powerful, but noticeably less so than on live.
I personally agree with the sentiment that power sharing and buffs should be reviewed together. Removing all of the power transfer through bondings would immediately remove the viability of power-share builds (vs. pure DO buffer). I think an eventual solution can absolutely involve the removal of this transfer (although it doesn't necessarily have to), but it should be balanced with buffs in order to provide viable tradeoffs between AC vs. DO DCs and other support classes.
On a side note, I think that people in general are susceptible to following trends. One side benefit of this random queue business is that it may open people's eyes that 2DC is perhaps not as necessary as many people believe.
As implemented on preview, it seems to not exactly be cooldown=duration like stated in the above dev post. It is, but there is a new mechanic at play. When bondings proc it gives a few seconds (or attacks) where the companion is allowed to proc bondings repeatedly for 3-8 seconds (about 3 attacks). This should remove some of that headache compared to a straight cooldown=duration, but is still obviously worse than the live version.
How interesting, thank you for sharing.
@noworries#8859 Can we get an official statement on the intended proc behavior for the new and improved bondings? In general, having the stats "snapshotted" roughly every 15 seconds is a confusing mechanic. Is it intended to stay this way? Are there concerns with restoring the behavior that allowed bonding stones to be refreshed before their duration elapses?
And another thing, please excuse me, but if as you say ' If it was on our radar for some time.....' well , surely other options have been discussed ???
I really just had to make an account to post. Not once in years have I felt obligated to post. I just i can't believe what I'm reading. The one thing I can't wrap my head around is why do they give us the ability to post our thoughts and feedback here on the forums? Isn't this the place where we let the devs know our thoughts and opinions on their proposed changes? Isn't this suppose to be the place where we discuss possible alternatives and come to a solution where everyone wins? Isn't the MAIN purpose of preview shard a way to test and give feedback? I might be blind but here we have 33 pages of feedback discussing possible alternatives also going with the fact this is also 33 pages of no one wanting these changes as it does NOTHING but hurt those who play this game. If the overwhelming majority is happy why make a unneeded change. I'm no genius but I believe that the goal is to make your customers happy, not drive them off. I cant even imagine what the yay to nay ratio is regarding these changes.... even if there is any yays. In the end why ask for our feedback but disregard EVERYTHING that is being said. I can't see any benefit to the players by what is being done. This really is an insult to everyone. Oh well, life goes on.... just not here.
Here's an example of a simple change you could do to Pallies to compensate for removing power sharing from bondings (which would be a 75% loss in power sharing buff):
Remove the 6 second delay on Aura of Courage buff Increase Aura of Courage buff to 2% Fix the bug that only gives other players the first rank of the AoC buff (this bug has been around since the class was introduced)
The Pally has now been fixed.
For DC's, a simple change to the feats Weapons of Light and Battle Fervor so they provide fixed DPS buffs instead of power sharing.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
> @fizgigtiznalkie#4436 said: > If oria and tom could take their spat to PMs we could stay on target. > > Why not make every runestone like bonding but instead of power/defense, have crit/lifesteal, recovery/deflect, etc.?
making the other runestones the tank/heals choice BIS as opposed to bondings instead of a nerf would be a great idea, but the devs don't seem to be interested in that, more so just a nerf to dps, even though it affects more than dps players too
also I suggested severity stats many pages ago but I someone clue'd me in on how it would take a bit more than reworking just the runestones themselves.
im actually the gwf carry
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
The last few days I've been analyzing changes on preview, trying some builds and bondings seem to be on the place they should be, still the best but not ridiculously better and depending on the role of the player the companion will have their weight, but this holds true in many fights only on companion that activates gift quick, there are companions where the story is very different, so here is what i propose to those seemingly lost cases so that not all have to be handled individually or until they are:
Eldritch grants 51% of companion stats to player (effect halved in augments); Profane/Arcane/etc... grants 4000 of x stat to the companion (effect halved on augments);
I don't think this will make other companions as good as trendy bondings ones, many people use bondings to obtain Armour penetration enough and armour penetration is the most fundamental stat in the game, if that is not near the value when needs to be then there is a problem, this proves that there are some really good companions processing gift. But then look at this companion performance:
Angel of protection heals the player if the same has enough missing life being that heal the only thing that can activate bondings, in my case above around 40k HP.
----------------------------
I know there are multiple possiblities of building but i picked one that seems more logical to me, 3 pieces of Fierce companion gear +4 using 2*3 Black ice enchantments R14
Inspite of still being quite worse the companion will receive 10% more crit (in opposition to 2,5% more damage) chance, which may not be the best build but will be closer to bondings. __________________________________
Another case assuming where there are 2 profanes and 1 bonding where the full sum of companion stats is 13500, 65% of those will be transferred, meaning 8775 stats to the player.
Assuming a case where there are 2 profanes and a eldritch where the full sum of stats is 12450: 25,05% of those will be transferred, meaning 3174 stats to the player
(Stats based on the values above)
Assuming now with double stats (4k crit and 51% grant):
17500 * 0.65 = 11 375
16450 * 0.51 = 8390
This is just numbers talk, to give a better perception of the difference:
Some people may say eldritch runestone would get too powerful, don't forget eldricht share drops when companion is dead, there is a big disadvantage in that. ----------------------------- And the angel among many other companions would get a chance.
rickcase276Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,404Arc User
But they are not ignoring the rage, they acknowledged it and said the bonding change was something they needed to make for the game, to get it to where the devs want/need the game to be at. We do not know what they have planned for future mods, so maybe these changes are needed for what is coming down the line. Only time will tell, if they are given the chance.
Bonding runestones were not adjusted due to power creep. They were adjusted due to being so far out of line with the rest of runestones/companions. It was something on our radar for a long time, and where it may have been easier to accept if it had happened sooner, it still needed to happen.
The refinement changes were something we already had plans for and were working on. With that coming down the line, we knew that any changes to bonding runestones needed to happen before players started investing in T13 and T14 bonding runestones and that is why these changes are all bundled together.
At this point we are still going forward with the bonding runestones as they are now. We realize there are other issues in the game and those are all things to be looked at independently of this. Bonding runestones do need to be brought closer in line with the rest of the companion system, and these changes still leave them out in front as the most powerful choice for most players.
Let me just get this straight and on the record whilst we're here.
Are you saying that total player stats are currently fine and not overpowered and that this is a restructure solely for the purpose of balancing where we get our stats from?
As such is it the company's position that the current total stats on a decently geared player are inline with current content?
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
> @jumpingmorks said: > How this is a feedback thread when we are not listened? > > Can we please put a poll here? Let's see how will people vote about these changes? > > How can 33 pages of pure rage be ignored by you guys? > > @nitocris83@noworries#8859 > > Ask yourself one simple question, is the uptime 50% as originally stated or now 100%?
it was, by the majority, said to be too much of a nerf so it was taken back. the percentage loss is also said to be too much, by the majority, but it remains. it's almost like there was an expected negative feedback and planned countermeasure...
Bonding runestones are a paid item. They should be better than other runestones. Why nerf them at all? If players are so strong and running the new content is too easy just change the content to scale to the average stats of the group instead of nerfing stuff players paid for and spent so much time on. This seems like a better fix than to nerf something so late in the game.
Founder of Knights of Ra guild in Neverwinter PS4. Founder of The Arashikage Clan in Defiance, formally of PlayStation Home.
So I'm a newer player. Played for about 3 months now. I have 3x rank 9 bonding runestones on my Fire Archon. I'm personally not all that affected by the nerf because a) I haven't put THAT much money into them, yet b) the percentage of the buff isn't affected a lot at my current rank. Something like -5% I think?
After reading the forums for the last few days or so (this is the most I've ever interacted with a forum - anywhere - ever) I noticed a few things 1) the 50% uptime was a huge problem...but that was fixed 2) the huge percentage drop...not fixed 3) the cost to get 12 to 14 seemed to demotivate players and seemed almost pointless, forcing some players to leave the game before investing more.
For 2) as others have mentioned, you could bring up the bondings percentage more (not to it's current live percentage, as the nerf is understandable to an extent) and make the other runestones better than what they're currently slated for
As for 3) weighing probably more than 2) in my opinion, the simple solution would be to create a vendor in PE for a limited time. This vendor would use the bonding runestones rank 12 and 12 only as currency to buy the rank 14 bondings. It would also have the other runestones at rank 14 for purchase in case some people wanted to move away from bonding (better to have and not want than want and not have). And maybe have a total transaction limit of 3 so as to at least bring main toons but to their top again.
This is just a noob player coming with an idea as a part of this "feedback" thread.
I won't even get started on the owlbear cub nerf that I saw on preview that is no where mentioned by the devs, but dropped my Owlbear Cub-oriented Templock DPS by 44% or so effectively making my build/class/character completely useless now in dungeons...........I was almost tempted to leave the game as I downloaded another MMO yesterday, but I am sticking with it for a little longer to see what happens.
Let me know what you fellow players think. Maybe my idea of the vendor would break something else?
Yeah you gotta love it - the Owlbear, the only augment that players would run, nerfed. lol...
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
Bonding runestones were not adjusted due to power creep. They were adjusted due to being so far out of line with the rest of runestones/companions. It was something on our radar for a long time, and where it may have been easier to accept if it had happened sooner, it still needed to happen.
The refinement changes were something we already had plans for and were working on. With that coming down the line, we knew that any changes to bonding runestones needed to happen before players started investing in T13 and T14 bonding runestones and that is why these changes are all bundled together.
At this point we are still going forward with the bonding runestones as they are now. We realize there are other issues in the game and those are all things to be looked at independently of this. Bonding runestones do need to be brought closer in line with the rest of the companion system, and these changes still leave them out in front as the most powerful choice for most players.
I have really lost faith in you guys. People keep telling you what happens in the game but you don't listen
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Bonding runestones were not adjusted due to power creep. They were adjusted due to being so far out of line with the rest of runestones/companions. It was something on our radar for a long time, and where it may have been easier to accept if it had happened sooner, it still needed to happen.
The refinement changes were something we already had plans for and were working on. With that coming down the line, we knew that any changes to bonding runestones needed to happen before players started investing in T13 and T14 bonding runestones and that is why these changes are all bundled together.
At this point we are still going forward with the bonding runestones as they are now. We realize there are other issues in the game and those are all things to be looked at independently of this. Bonding runestones do need to be brought closer in line with the rest of the companion system, and these changes still leave them out in front as the most powerful choice for most players.
have you fully considered the ethical implications of taking something (one of the few things in the game actually) that people have spent more ACTUAL money... time and effort into grinding to a certain level.. then reducing it by a significant amount and then RESELLING the SAME thing to them.. that had already been purchased..
most business ethics classes would steer you very strongly away from doing such a thing. selling something new is one thing. stealing something then selling it back is another story. we're not stupid. we see it.
do you have any plans to rebalance the rest of the games difficulty based on this? this affects people playing solo and random parties ala your new queue system, more than anything else. do you have plans to rebalance the difficulty of areas that get played in pugs and solo content to adapt for this. you've built your entire game and it's difficulty around players having these stats now you're removing them. right at the same time as forcing people to random que if they want their daily ad. I do hope that's accounted for in upcoming difficulty changes. especially with the newer dungeons that no normal parties can complete reasonably ALREADY.. you've gated the things that let us update our gear to 14 in a dungeon no one will be able to complete now.
Yeah you gotta love it - the Owlbear, the only augment that players would run, nerfed. lol...
Yeah I brought the issue up somewhere else, but I'll put it here again.
We really need augments with good active bonuses.
Right now your summoned companion typically has either a really good active bonus (usually a percent damage boost for dps), or a really good bonus through the companions abilities (sword trio/harper bard/ambush drake).
Since augments don't have abilities, they really need pretty solid active bonuses. The owlbear cub is the only one that sorta qualifies, but only for certain builds.
If you're worried about good active bonuses being used in non-summoned slots, you can always add "if summoned" to the active bonus.
> @tekathurrai said: > So I'm a newer player. Played for about 3 months now. I have 3x rank 9 bonding runestones on my Fire Archon. I'm personally not all that affected by the nerf because > a) I haven't put THAT much money into them, yet > b) the percentage of the buff isn't affected a lot at my current rank. Something like -5% I think? > > After reading the forums for the last few days or so (this is the most I've ever interacted with a forum - anywhere - ever) I noticed a few things > 1) the 50% uptime was a huge problem...but that was fixed > 2) the huge percentage drop...not fixed > 3) the cost to get 12 to 14 seemed to demotivate players and seemed almost pointless, forcing some players to leave the game before investing more. > > For 2) as others have mentioned, you could bring up the bondings percentage more (not to it's current live percentage, as the nerf is understandable to an extent) and make the other runestones better than what they're currently slated for > > As for 3) weighing probably more than 2) in my opinion, the simple solution would be to create a vendor in PE for a limited time. This vendor would use the bonding runestones rank 12 and 12 only as currency to buy the rank 14 bondings. It would also have the other runestones at rank 14 for purchase in case some people wanted to move away from bonding (better to have and not want than want and not have). And maybe have a total transaction limit of 3 so as to at least bring main toons but to their top again. > > This is just a noob player coming with an idea as a part of this "feedback" thread. > > I won't even get started on the owlbear cub nerf that I saw on preview that is no where mentioned by the devs, but dropped my Owlbear Cub-oriented Templock DPS by 44% or so effectively making my build/class/character completely useless now in dungeons...........I was almost tempted to leave the game as I downloaded another MMO yesterday, but I am sticking with it for a little longer to see what happens. > > Let me know what you fellow players think. Maybe my idea of the vendor would break something else?
can you or anybody else explain what makes the nerf understandable? it's being said by the devs that it's to bring them in line with other runes, what does that mean exactly? if everything as it is now goes through, rank 12 eldritch x3 or rank 12 bond x3 are still too weak to complete tier 3 for the average player. especially players of certain classes like yourself that had a build set up that also got a stealth nerf(owlbear templock). for the near or at bis players, its a nerf that is an annoyance. they could still do tier 3 but it's still a resale for them, which is unnacceptable.
the only way I would accept a nerf if there is a vendor to trade my 3x12 in for 3x14 that are at 285% in total, but I dont want that type of thing to happen, it's extremely selfish and unforgiving to everybody else still. players who are just getting rank 10 or 11, what about them? it's just not right. I want to do something fair for everybody.
Just a quick note to those who keep referencing 4x Power Share through companions. That 4x comes from what used to be 1x direct + 2.85x through bondings + 0.15x on legendary active.
That 4x number isn't accurate anymore right now, because that 0.15x Legendary Active got increased (from 0.16x with 1 orange pet, all the way to 0.31x with 5 orange pets). So on live right now, we are looking at 4.01x to 4.16x power share amplified through bondings (assuming you hit both pet and owner with all sources of power share).
Be advised that in the new system, this is getting reduced because of the bonding nerf. Looking at 3x R12 bondings in the new system, we go from 2.85x to 1.65x. If you manage to get to 3x R14 bondings, then you get to edge back up to 1.95x.
For example, in the new system, with 1 legendary and 3x R12 it comes out to 1x + 1.65x + 0.16x = 2.81x power share. So (4.01 - 2.81)/4.01 = 0.29925187032 ~ 30% reduction in power being shared vs. live.
And at max, with 5 legendary and 3x R14 it comes out to 1x + 1.95x + 0.31x = 3.26x power share. So (4.16 - 3.26)/4.16 = 0.21634615384 ~ 18% reduction in max possible power being shared vs. live.
So I'd say it's more accurate to say we are looking at ~3x power share under the new mechanics. That's still very noticeable, but definitely less than on liver right now.
Additionally, unless they make a change to this (and I think that they should), the duration = cooldown means that you need to exactly time AA (and possibly BoB) in order to get it in place right before bonding procs. For those of you that remember the days of fast-procing bonding companions, we're taking a step back in that direction again.
My point is that power sharing is getting a pretty big haircut with these changes. It's still very powerful, but noticeably less so than on live.
I personally agree with the sentiment that power sharing and buffs should be reviewed together. Removing all of the power transfer through bondings would immediately remove the viability of power-share builds (vs. pure DO buffer). I think an eventual solution can absolutely involve the removal of this transfer (although it doesn't necessarily have to), but it should be balanced with buffs in order to provide viable tradeoffs between AC vs. DO DCs and other support classes.
On a side note, I think that people in general are susceptible to following trends. One side benefit of this random queue business is that it may open people's eyes that 2DC is perhaps not as necessary as many people believe.
I personally have ZERO problem with power share. I don't think it should be touched if these changes are going thru. I was only arguing in favor because we thought the reason had been power creep for the bondings nerf.
I really just had to make an account to post. Not once in years have I felt obligated to post. I just i can't believe what I'm reading. The one thing I can't wrap my head around is why do they give us the ability to post our thoughts and feedback here on the forums? Isn't this the place where we let the devs know our thoughts and opinions on their proposed changes? Isn't this suppose to be the place where we discuss possible alternatives and come to a solution where everyone wins? Isn't the MAIN purpose of preview shard a way to test and give feedback? I might be blind but here we have 33 pages of feedback discussing possible alternatives also going with the fact this is also 33 pages of no one wanting these changes as it does NOTHING but hurt those who play this game. If the overwhelming majority is happy why make a unneeded change. I'm no genius but I believe that the goal is to make your customers happy, not drive them off. I cant even imagine what the yay to nay ratio is regarding these changes.... even if there is any yays. In the end why ask for our feedback but disregard EVERYTHING that is being said. I can't see any benefit to the players by what is being done. This really is an insult to everyone. Oh well, life goes on.... just not here.
look at the agree and disagree on no worries post. it tells a story. and I don't think it was posted that long ago lol. I"m feeling stupid now. I sold my black ice war horse and bought 13mil worth of stuff and a nother 3 mil from the greater dread no longer needed. prices are gonna plummet now. I really thought they'd read all this and think hamsters!! we're going to lose a ton of people better walk it back. sigh.
I saw someone wrote about scaling the content and I agree. I would love t3-4 versions of the same dungeons. That alone would be amazing! Instead of just running FBI,msp,tong, how about a t4 dungeon of etos and other dungeons where everything was the same just not powerful. No more editing the dungeons than that. Do you know how much I'd grind to get my character ready for those? Tanky dps setups omg.. please do this. I could almost forgive the nerfs if that's the case. Devs! Please listen to this. That alone would increase my uptime in the game and therefore increase spending as well. If you bring back the old dungeons where you could select t1-4 versions of them as well in proposing to each and every one of you. I will buy a ring and fly out to each one of you just to propose. This is gold.
N why was owlbear nerfed? It didn't need it after you nerfed it the first time. Even before then it wasn't like it was best in slot for each and every class and build. It was niche and that's what made it perfect. Now it's just useless...
> So I'm a newer player. Played for about 3 months now. I have 3x rank 9 bonding runestones on my Fire Archon. I'm personally not all that affected by the nerf because
> a) I haven't put THAT much money into them, yet
> b) the percentage of the buff isn't affected a lot at my current rank. Something like -5% I think?
>
> After reading the forums for the last few days or so (this is the most I've ever interacted with a forum - anywhere - ever) I noticed a few things
> 1) the 50% uptime was a huge problem...but that was fixed
> 2) the huge percentage drop...not fixed
> 3) the cost to get 12 to 14 seemed to demotivate players and seemed almost pointless, forcing some players to leave the game before investing more.
>
> For 2) as others have mentioned, you could bring up the bondings percentage more (not to it's current live percentage, as the nerf is understandable to an extent) and make the other runestones better than what they're currently slated for
>
> As for 3) weighing probably more than 2) in my opinion, the simple solution would be to create a vendor in PE for a limited time. This vendor would use the bonding runestones rank 12 and 12 only as currency to buy the rank 14 bondings. It would also have the other runestones at rank 14 for purchase in case some people wanted to move away from bonding (better to have and not want than want and not have). And maybe have a total transaction limit of 3 so as to at least bring main toons but to their top again.
>
> This is just a noob player coming with an idea as a part of this "feedback" thread.
>
> I won't even get started on the owlbear cub nerf that I saw on preview that is no where mentioned by the devs, but dropped my Owlbear Cub-oriented Templock DPS by 44% or so effectively making my build/class/character completely useless now in dungeons...........I was almost tempted to leave the game as I downloaded another MMO yesterday, but I am sticking with it for a little longer to see what happens.
>
> Let me know what you fellow players think. Maybe my idea of the vendor would break something else?
can you or anybody else explain what makes the nerf understandable? it's being said by the devs that it's to bring them in line with other runes, what does that mean exactly? if everything as it is now goes through, rank 12 eldritch x3 or rank 12 bond x3 are still too weak to complete tier 3 for the average player. especially players of certain classes like yourself that had a build set up that also got a stealth nerf(owlbear templock). for the near or at bis players, its a nerf that is an annoyance. they could still do tier 3 but it's still a resale for them, which is unnacceptable.
the only way I would accept a nerf if there is a vendor to trade my 3x12 in for 3x14 that are at 285% in total, but I dont want that type of thing to happen, it's extremely selfish and unforgiving to everybody else still. players who are just getting rank 10 or 11, what about them? it's just not right. I want to do something fair for everybody.
I can see where they are saying that it is too powerful. I can understand it. I can see why they want to bring it down to make things a "tad" harder, for that good challenge. Bringing UP runestones is an option, but again, I think that shouldn't be the sole option. I think it would be acceptable to have rank 14 bondings at 75% so 225% total, which is 60% drop from live. And bring up runestones so they are a bit more comparable. I can see why devs want them in line, because its true, why run anything other than bonding? Why even have runestones in the game at that point.
> @tekathurrai said: > > @tekathurrai said: > > > So I'm a newer player. Played for about 3 months now. I have 3x rank 9 bonding runestones on my Fire Archon. I'm personally not all that affected by the nerf because > > > a) I haven't put THAT much money into them, yet > > > b) the percentage of the buff isn't affected a lot at my current rank. Something like -5% I think? > > > > > > After reading the forums for the last few days or so (this is the most I've ever interacted with a forum - anywhere - ever) I noticed a few things > > > 1) the 50% uptime was a huge problem...but that was fixed > > > 2) the huge percentage drop...not fixed > > > 3) the cost to get 12 to 14 seemed to demotivate players and seemed almost pointless, forcing some players to leave the game before investing more. > > > > > > For 2) as others have mentioned, you could bring up the bondings percentage more (not to it's current live percentage, as the nerf is understandable to an extent) and make the other runestones better than what they're currently slated for > > > > > > As for 3) weighing probably more than 2) in my opinion, the simple solution would be to create a vendor in PE for a limited time. This vendor would use the bonding runestones rank 12 and 12 only as currency to buy the rank 14 bondings. It would also have the other runestones at rank 14 for purchase in case some people wanted to move away from bonding (better to have and not want than want and not have). And maybe have a total transaction limit of 3 so as to at least bring main toons but to their top again. > > > > > > This is just a noob player coming with an idea as a part of this "feedback" thread. > > > > > > I won't even get started on the owlbear cub nerf that I saw on preview that is no where mentioned by the devs, but dropped my Owlbear Cub-oriented Templock DPS by 44% or so effectively making my build/class/character completely useless now in dungeons...........I was almost tempted to leave the game as I downloaded another MMO yesterday, but I am sticking with it for a little longer to see what happens. > > > > > > Let me know what you fellow players think. Maybe my idea of the vendor would break something else? > > > > > > > > > > can you or anybody else explain what makes the nerf understandable? it's being said by the devs that it's to bring them in line with other runes, what does that mean exactly? if everything as it is now goes through, rank 12 eldritch x3 or rank 12 bond x3 are still too weak to complete tier 3 for the average player. especially players of certain classes like yourself that had a build set up that also got a stealth nerf(owlbear templock). for the near or at bis players, its a nerf that is an annoyance. they could still do tier 3 but it's still a resale for them, which is unnacceptable. > > > > > > the only way I would accept a nerf if there is a vendor to trade my 3x12 in for 3x14 that are at 285% in total, but I dont want that type of thing to happen, it's extremely selfish and unforgiving to everybody else still. players who are just getting rank 10 or 11, what about them? it's just not right. I want to do something fair for everybody. > > I can see where they are saying that it is too powerful. I can understand it. I can see why they want to bring it down to make things a "tad" harder, for that good challenge. Bringing UP runestones is an option, but again, I think that shouldn't be the sole option. I think it would be acceptable to have rank 14 bondings at 75% so 225% total, which is 60% drop from live. And bring up runestones so they are a bit more comparable. I can see why devs want them in line, because its true, why run anything other than bonding? Why even have runestones in the game at that point.
the thing is, the dev just clarified that it's not to make content harder(content that was built in mind with using bondings mind you), it's that they want bondings more in line with other runestones...how can you even say bondings are too powerful if you've never even used rank 12s?
here's an interesting fact I haven't seen mentioned yet, by a dev or mod on here that is claiming bondings are so far out of line that it has become a problem, claiming other runestones as is are becoming underutilized. there are 21(22 with TONG) current epic dungeons, trials, and skirmishes. how many of them are built around bondings? 5, including TONG...how many have and can be done without even one bonding of any rank? in my personal experience, 17. now where in the world can anybody gain the notion that other runestones, as is, are useless, when in virtually 3/4 of end game(as in 60+ level) content, investing in them is not even important?
if anything, bondings are simply just end game as is, mainly for dps characters at that. I've been in a few groups with the tank running eldritch/empowered in fbi and completed it, though pretty rare. bumping them and other runestones wouldn't be bad at all, but the nerf can't be justified by any means that have been brought forth, despite it looking inevitable to happen.
> @noworries#8859 said: > Bonding runestones were not adjusted due to power creep. They were adjusted due to being so far out of line with the rest of runestones/companions. It was something on our radar for a long time, and where it may have been easier to accept if it had happened sooner, it still needed to happen. > > The refinement changes were something we already had plans for and were working on. With that coming down the line, we knew that any changes to bonding runestones needed to happen before players started investing in T13 and T14 bonding runestones and that is why these changes are all bundled together. > > At this point we are still going forward with the bonding runestones as they are now. We realize there are other issues in the game and those are all things to be looked at independently of this. Bonding runestones do need to be brought closer in line with the rest of the companion system, and these changes still leave them out in front as the most powerful choice for most players.
biggest load of utter rubbish I've ever heard, once we get all our enchants get back to rank 14 we will be back to where we are now which will fix nothing, do you take us all for fools and mugs this is a simple cash grab
Post edited by muckingfuppet on
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
You guys keep Saying the same thing "we'll have the same amount of stats with r14 enchants", this nerf was not to address the big amount of stats a player can get, it was to address the capacity of bondings when compared to other runestones. Powercreep by all the things, specially power share should be addressed? Yes. Is this rework to address that ? No.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
They nerf our personal stat progress and keep the need to invest to other classes mechanisms. Do you want to deal more damage ? raise your hp. DId you lose your power with the nerf on bondings?? Dont worry power share is still here and nothing changes)
Comments
Yes but this isn't toning things down a bit, this is a 32% reduction in their capability (let's not forget it was nearly a 64% reduction!).
The other big issue is if you are going to improve the other runestones but not enough so they represent a challenge to bondings being the only real option, what worth did the increase on others actually have?
You know, if you'd put them on an equal footing you'd have a decent argument, but I researched them with a view to doing this on my main character and it didn't balance out. I really gave it some serious consideration.
As such, augments remain as they have been for two years, the beginners choice or a fallback for certain fights where a companion is a liability.
I actually understand the point about evening out the effectiveness of gear, I really do. But to my mind the right way to fix things would've been:
remove the power sharing mechanic from bondings
change DC & OP mechanics to balance the loss of buffs (flat damage boosters similar to ITF)
And there you go. You've removed the overpowered nature of Bondings at no cost to players, compensated player stats by altered mechanics and nobody gets into riot mode.
You're then still able to bring out your new enchantments and improve the other runestones, everyone's happy, no loss of players, you've created a win-win where your objectives are met at the same time as players not receiving a loss and being expected to pay for the privilege.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
@noworries#8859 Can we get an official statement on the intended proc behavior for the new and improved bondings? In general, having the stats "snapshotted" roughly every 15 seconds is a confusing mechanic. Is it intended to stay this way? Are there concerns with restoring the behavior that allowed bonding stones to be refreshed before their duration elapses?
.
Remove the 6 second delay on Aura of Courage buff
Increase Aura of Courage buff to 2%
Fix the bug that only gives other players the first rank of the AoC buff (this bug has been around since the class was introduced)
The Pally has now been fixed.
For DC's, a simple change to the feats Weapons of Light and Battle Fervor so they provide fixed DPS buffs instead of power sharing.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
> If oria and tom could take their spat to PMs we could stay on target.
>
> Why not make every runestone like bonding but instead of power/defense, have crit/lifesteal, recovery/deflect, etc.?
making the other runestones the tank/heals choice BIS as opposed to bondings instead of a nerf would be a great idea, but the devs don't seem to be interested in that, more so just a nerf to dps, even though it affects more than dps players too
also I suggested severity stats many pages ago but I someone clue'd me in on how it would take a bit more than reworking just the runestones themselves.
The last few days I've been analyzing changes on preview, trying some builds and bondings seem to be on the place they should be, still the best but not ridiculously better and depending on the role of the player the companion will have their weight, but this holds true in many fights only on companion that activates gift quick, there are companions where the story is very different, so here is what i propose to those seemingly lost cases so that not all have to be handled individually or until they are:
Eldritch grants 51% of companion stats to player (effect halved in augments);
Profane/Arcane/etc... grants 4000 of x stat to the companion (effect halved on augments);
I don't think this will make other companions as good as trendy bondings ones, many people use bondings to obtain Armour penetration enough and armour penetration is the most fundamental stat in the game, if that is not near the value when needs to be then there is a problem, this proves that there are some really good companions processing gift. But then look at this companion performance:
https://streamable.com/t1i1o
Angel of protection heals the player if the same has enough missing life being that heal the only thing that can activate bondings, in my case above around 40k HP.
----------------------------
I know there are multiple possiblities of building but i picked one that seems more logical to me, 3 pieces of Fierce companion gear +4 using 2*3 Black ice enchantments R14
Player uses:
2 Bondings R14
1 Profane R14
430 + 361 * 3 + 700 * 6 + 2100 = 7813 Power
430 + 541 * 3 + 350 * 6 + 2000 = 6153 Critical Strike
430 Armour pen
350 * 6 = 2100 Recovery
Player gets:
10 156 Power
7998 Critical Strike
559 Armour Penetration
2730 Recovery
Total: 21443
------------------------------
Now if the player uses 3 Bondings R14
430 + 361 * 3 + 700 * 6 + 3150 = 8863 Power
430 + 541 * 3 + 350 * 6 = 4153 Critical Strike
430 Armour penetration
350*6 = 2100 Recovery
Player gets:
17 282 Power
8098 Critical strike
838 Resistance ignored
4095 Recovery
Total stats: 30 313
----------------------------
With profane worth 4000 Crit:
430 + 361 * 3 + 700 * 6 + 2100 = 7813 Power
430 + 541 * 3 + 350 * 6 + 2000 = 8153 Critical
430 Armour Penetration
350 * 6 = 2100
Player gets:
10 156 Power
10 599 Critical strike
559 Armour penetration
2730 Recovery
24 044
Inspite of still being quite worse the companion will receive 10% more crit (in opposition to 2,5% more damage) chance, which may not be the best build but will be closer to bondings.
__________________________________
Another case assuming where there are 2 profanes and 1 bonding where the full sum of companion stats is 13500, 65% of those will be transferred, meaning 8775 stats to the player.
Assuming a case where there are 2 profanes and a eldritch where the full sum of stats is 12450: 25,05% of those will be transferred,
meaning 3174 stats to the player
(Stats based on the values above)
Assuming now with double stats (4k crit and 51% grant):
17500 * 0.65 = 11 375
16450 * 0.51 = 8390
This is just numbers talk, to give a better perception of the difference:
Some people may say eldritch runestone would get too powerful, don't forget eldricht share drops when companion is dead, there is a big disadvantage in that.
-----------------------------
And the angel among many other companions would get a chance.
Can we please put a poll here? Let's see how will people vote about these changes?
How can 33 pages of pure rage be ignored by you guys?
@nitocris83 @noworries#8859
Are you saying that total player stats are currently fine and not overpowered and that this is a restructure solely for the purpose of balancing where we get our stats from?
As such is it the company's position that the current total stats on a decently geared player are inline with current content?
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
> How this is a feedback thread when we are not listened?
>
> Can we please put a poll here? Let's see how will people vote about these changes?
>
> How can 33 pages of pure rage be ignored by you guys?
>
> @nitocris83 @noworries#8859
>
> Ask yourself one simple question, is the uptime 50% as originally stated or now 100%?
it was, by the majority, said to be too much of a nerf so it was taken back. the percentage loss is also said to be too much, by the majority, but it remains. it's almost like there was an expected negative feedback and planned countermeasure...
a) I haven't put THAT much money into them, yet
b) the percentage of the buff isn't affected a lot at my current rank. Something like -5% I think?
After reading the forums for the last few days or so (this is the most I've ever interacted with a forum - anywhere - ever) I noticed a few things
1) the 50% uptime was a huge problem...but that was fixed
2) the huge percentage drop...not fixed
3) the cost to get 12 to 14 seemed to demotivate players and seemed almost pointless, forcing some players to leave the game before investing more.
For 2) as others have mentioned, you could bring up the bondings percentage more (not to it's current live percentage, as the nerf is understandable to an extent) and make the other runestones better than what they're currently slated for
As for 3) weighing probably more than 2) in my opinion, the simple solution would be to create a vendor in PE for a limited time. This vendor would use the bonding runestones rank 12 and 12 only as currency to buy the rank 14 bondings. It would also have the other runestones at rank 14 for purchase in case some people wanted to move away from bonding (better to have and not want than want and not have). And maybe have a total transaction limit of 3 so as to at least bring main toons but to their top again.
This is just a noob player coming with an idea as a part of this "feedback" thread.
I won't even get started on the owlbear cub nerf that I saw on preview that is no where mentioned by the devs, but dropped my Owlbear Cub-oriented Templock DPS by 44% or so effectively making my build/class/character completely useless now in dungeons...........I was almost tempted to leave the game as I downloaded another MMO yesterday, but I am sticking with it for a little longer to see what happens.
Let me know what you fellow players think. Maybe my idea of the vendor would break something else?
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
have you fully considered the ethical implications of taking something (one of the few things in the game actually) that people have spent more ACTUAL money... time and effort into grinding to a certain level.. then reducing it by a significant amount and then RESELLING the SAME thing to them.. that had already been purchased..
most business ethics classes would steer you very strongly away from doing such a thing. selling something new is one thing. stealing something then selling it back is another story. we're not stupid. we see it.
do you have any plans to rebalance the rest of the games difficulty based on this? this affects people playing solo and random parties ala your new queue system, more than anything else. do you have plans to rebalance the difficulty of areas that get played in pugs and solo content to adapt for this. you've built your entire game and it's difficulty around players having these stats now you're removing them. right at the same time as forcing people to random que if they want their daily ad. I do hope that's accounted for in upcoming difficulty changes. especially with the newer dungeons that no normal parties can complete reasonably ALREADY.. you've gated the things that let us update our gear to 14 in a dungeon no one will be able to complete now.
We really need augments with good active bonuses.
Right now your summoned companion typically has either a really good active bonus (usually a percent damage boost for dps), or a really good bonus through the companions abilities (sword trio/harper bard/ambush drake).
Since augments don't have abilities, they really need pretty solid active bonuses. The owlbear cub is the only one that sorta qualifies, but only for certain builds.
If you're worried about good active bonuses being used in non-summoned slots, you can always add "if summoned" to the active bonus.
> So I'm a newer player. Played for about 3 months now. I have 3x rank 9 bonding runestones on my Fire Archon. I'm personally not all that affected by the nerf because
> a) I haven't put THAT much money into them, yet
> b) the percentage of the buff isn't affected a lot at my current rank. Something like -5% I think?
>
> After reading the forums for the last few days or so (this is the most I've ever interacted with a forum - anywhere - ever) I noticed a few things
> 1) the 50% uptime was a huge problem...but that was fixed
> 2) the huge percentage drop...not fixed
> 3) the cost to get 12 to 14 seemed to demotivate players and seemed almost pointless, forcing some players to leave the game before investing more.
>
> For 2) as others have mentioned, you could bring up the bondings percentage more (not to it's current live percentage, as the nerf is understandable to an extent) and make the other runestones better than what they're currently slated for
>
> As for 3) weighing probably more than 2) in my opinion, the simple solution would be to create a vendor in PE for a limited time. This vendor would use the bonding runestones rank 12 and 12 only as currency to buy the rank 14 bondings. It would also have the other runestones at rank 14 for purchase in case some people wanted to move away from bonding (better to have and not want than want and not have). And maybe have a total transaction limit of 3 so as to at least bring main toons but to their top again.
>
> This is just a noob player coming with an idea as a part of this "feedback" thread.
>
> I won't even get started on the owlbear cub nerf that I saw on preview that is no where mentioned by the devs, but dropped my Owlbear Cub-oriented Templock DPS by 44% or so effectively making my build/class/character completely useless now in dungeons...........I was almost tempted to leave the game as I downloaded another MMO yesterday, but I am sticking with it for a little longer to see what happens.
>
> Let me know what you fellow players think. Maybe my idea of the vendor would break something else?
can you or anybody else explain what makes the nerf understandable? it's being said by the devs that it's to bring them in line with other runes, what does that mean exactly? if everything as it is now goes through, rank 12 eldritch x3 or rank 12 bond x3 are still too weak to complete tier 3 for the average player. especially players of certain classes like yourself that had a build set up that also got a stealth nerf(owlbear templock). for the near or at bis players, its a nerf that is an annoyance. they could still do tier 3 but it's still a resale for them, which is unnacceptable.
the only way I would accept a nerf if there is a vendor to trade my 3x12 in for 3x14 that are at 285% in total, but I dont want that type of thing to happen, it's extremely selfish and unforgiving to everybody else still. players who are just getting rank 10 or 11, what about them? it's just not right. I want to do something fair for everybody.
I personally have ZERO problem with power share. I don't think it should be touched if these changes are going thru. I was only arguing in favor because we thought the reason had been power creep for the bondings nerf.
look at the agree and disagree on no worries post. it tells a story. and I don't think it was posted that long ago lol. I"m feeling stupid now. I sold my black ice war horse and bought 13mil worth of stuff and a nother 3 mil from the greater dread no longer needed. prices are gonna plummet now. I really thought they'd read all this and think hamsters!! we're going to lose a ton of people better walk it back. sigh.
That's because it has to be brought into line with Bondings Stones - the nerf was obvious, why cant you see that?
> > @tekathurrai said:
>
> > So I'm a newer player. Played for about 3 months now. I have 3x rank 9 bonding runestones on my Fire Archon. I'm personally not all that affected by the nerf because
>
> > a) I haven't put THAT much money into them, yet
>
> > b) the percentage of the buff isn't affected a lot at my current rank. Something like -5% I think?
>
> >
>
> > After reading the forums for the last few days or so (this is the most I've ever interacted with a forum - anywhere - ever) I noticed a few things
>
> > 1) the 50% uptime was a huge problem...but that was fixed
>
> > 2) the huge percentage drop...not fixed
>
> > 3) the cost to get 12 to 14 seemed to demotivate players and seemed almost pointless, forcing some players to leave the game before investing more.
>
> >
>
> > For 2) as others have mentioned, you could bring up the bondings percentage more (not to it's current live percentage, as the nerf is understandable to an extent) and make the other runestones better than what they're currently slated for
>
> >
>
> > As for 3) weighing probably more than 2) in my opinion, the simple solution would be to create a vendor in PE for a limited time. This vendor would use the bonding runestones rank 12 and 12 only as currency to buy the rank 14 bondings. It would also have the other runestones at rank 14 for purchase in case some people wanted to move away from bonding (better to have and not want than want and not have). And maybe have a total transaction limit of 3 so as to at least bring main toons but to their top again.
>
> >
>
> > This is just a noob player coming with an idea as a part of this "feedback" thread.
>
> >
>
> > I won't even get started on the owlbear cub nerf that I saw on preview that is no where mentioned by the devs, but dropped my Owlbear Cub-oriented Templock DPS by 44% or so effectively making my build/class/character completely useless now in dungeons...........I was almost tempted to leave the game as I downloaded another MMO yesterday, but I am sticking with it for a little longer to see what happens.
>
> >
>
> > Let me know what you fellow players think. Maybe my idea of the vendor would break something else?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> can you or anybody else explain what makes the nerf understandable? it's being said by the devs that it's to bring them in line with other runes, what does that mean exactly? if everything as it is now goes through, rank 12 eldritch x3 or rank 12 bond x3 are still too weak to complete tier 3 for the average player. especially players of certain classes like yourself that had a build set up that also got a stealth nerf(owlbear templock). for the near or at bis players, its a nerf that is an annoyance. they could still do tier 3 but it's still a resale for them, which is unnacceptable.
>
>
>
>
>
> the only way I would accept a nerf if there is a vendor to trade my 3x12 in for 3x14 that are at 285% in total, but I dont want that type of thing to happen, it's extremely selfish and unforgiving to everybody else still. players who are just getting rank 10 or 11, what about them? it's just not right. I want to do something fair for everybody.
>
> I can see where they are saying that it is too powerful. I can understand it. I can see why they want to bring it down to make things a "tad" harder, for that good challenge. Bringing UP runestones is an option, but again, I think that shouldn't be the sole option. I think it would be acceptable to have rank 14 bondings at 75% so 225% total, which is 60% drop from live. And bring up runestones so they are a bit more comparable. I can see why devs want them in line, because its true, why run anything other than bonding? Why even have runestones in the game at that point.
the thing is, the dev just clarified that it's not to make content harder(content that was built in mind with using bondings mind you), it's that they want bondings more in line with other runestones...how can you even say bondings are too powerful if you've never even used rank 12s?
here's an interesting fact I haven't seen mentioned yet, by a dev or mod on here that is claiming bondings are so far out of line that it has become a problem, claiming other runestones as is are becoming underutilized. there are 21(22 with TONG) current epic dungeons, trials, and skirmishes. how many of them are built around bondings? 5, including TONG...how many have and can be done without even one bonding of any rank? in my personal experience, 17. now where in the world can anybody gain the notion that other runestones, as is, are useless, when in virtually 3/4 of end game(as in 60+ level) content, investing in them is not even important?
if anything, bondings are simply just end game as is, mainly for dps characters at that. I've been in a few groups with the tank running eldritch/empowered in fbi and completed it, though pretty rare. bumping them and other runestones wouldn't be bad at all, but the nerf can't be justified by any means that have been brought forth, despite it looking inevitable to happen.
> Bonding runestones were not adjusted due to power creep. They were adjusted due to being so far out of line with the rest of runestones/companions. It was something on our radar for a long time, and where it may have been easier to accept if it had happened sooner, it still needed to happen.
>
> The refinement changes were something we already had plans for and were working on. With that coming down the line, we knew that any changes to bonding runestones needed to happen before players started investing in T13 and T14 bonding runestones and that is why these changes are all bundled together.
>
> At this point we are still going forward with the bonding runestones as they are now. We realize there are other issues in the game and those are all things to be looked at independently of this. Bonding runestones do need to be brought closer in line with the rest of the companion system, and these changes still leave them out in front as the most powerful choice for most players.
biggest load of utter rubbish I've ever heard, once we get all our enchants get back to rank 14 we will be back to where we are now which will fix nothing, do you take us all for fools and mugs this is a simple cash grab
Do you want to deal more damage ? raise your hp.
DId you lose your power with the nerf on bondings?? Dont worry power share is still here and nothing changes)