> @strathkin said: > In any MMO if one thing is at a massive advantage, it's clear it needs to be corrected; especially if it's the only thing everybody uses. A game without different choices for different classes/feats/companions or builds would not be exciting. Bondings left alone basically equate to a "God Mode Cheat" being permitted in the game.
In any MMO, If one thing is a massive advantage, the PRICE goes UP naturally. This makes up for the balancing. You forget to say that bondings cost a millions times more than an eldrich.
Everybody has bondings right now, and 99% of players did not complain about a "lack of choice" concerning this issue. It's even the opposite: Everyone wants to keep this single choice (bondings), as you can overwhelmingly read in the forums. (Well no that they would mind if other altenatives where given to them, like buffed Eldrich..but not taking away what they already worked for)
God Mode Cheat ?! Really ?! Maybe you are talking about the 0,1% of top players who do speedruns. I'm a DC, i've 3xR12 bonding. Every single player of my team has 3xR12 Bondings. We are between iL 11k and 13k. and we still struggle a LOT (2 hours) to finish FBI.
Besides, don't forget that being able to do speedrun is fun. The whole point about gaming is that it's fun. For example, i do speedruns on etos...you might laugh it this, but it suits my item level and my team...
This game is not Call of duty or Doom: it's a cooperative game you play against the AI. Who cares if one item is a bit more powerful than another.... i'm not gonna deny you any AD or loot if i'm more powerful than i should be. It's even the opposite : I can help ppl who normally would not be able to finish CN. It's a cooperative game, not a "versus" game: why do you care if i have 100k power rather than 80k ?
This post is not personnal against you. i'm aware it's written maybe in a personnal talk manner, but it's not my goal (it's because my english is not perfect, sorry about this)
I know it's considered crazy OP, but returning the Loyal Gear (and not locked behind the hardest content either) would be a nice, conciliatory measure on your part. The Ardent Store needs some love anyway...
I think that is the TYPE of feedback they might be at least 'open' to considering in Lieu of the all changes, while perhaps they were overdue and I'd state most are very appropriate.
0
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
@strathkin : no. I always supported changes so far, I even supported mod6 because it made people rethink the way they played. They say that they want to bring dailies back in line and I support that as dailies should feel special. I even support a tone down of bonding runestones. What I can't stand is the fact that they want to resell us the same power again for the same content. It's not the change itself, it's the attitude. They are slowly streamlining the game so that any progress is tied to buying wards and painful grind. The game is becoming more and more a boring grind and want they offer us is more grind. The next step I expect will be removing coal wards from the Crypt of Piety and tying the whole game to the ZEN market making it a pay-to-advance game.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
@strathkin : no. I always supported changes so far, I even supported mod6 because it made people rethink the way they played. They say that they want to bring dailies back in line and I support that as dailies should feel special.
I even support a tone down of bonding runestones. What I can't stand is the fact that they want to resell us the same power again for the same content. It's not the change itself, it's the attitude. They are slowly streamlining the game so that any progress is tied to buying wards and painful grind. The game is becoming more and more a boring grind and want they offer us is more grind. The next step I expect will be removing coal wards from the Crypt of Piety and tying the whole game to the ZEN market making it a pay-to-advance game.
This is basically the perfect sum up and main issue people have for these changes.
It's not just the bonding changes that have hacked me off. It's the refinement changes and the random queue changes too. I'm a console player and I was really looking forward to the new mod and new content. I am almost 13,000 IL and have been working on my companions, bonding and gear so that I can at least attempt the new stuff and get started on it. I main this character, rarely play alts, and have limited time to play now so I tend to do mainly do guild dailies and dungeons, as I have completed all other campaign content and I have most of my boons. I hated SKT, Icewind Dale and rarely go back to RD. Needless to say I have been getting bored with Neverwinter. So I was, repeat WAS, looking forward to the next few months.
I have spent a lot of time and money to get where I am in this game. I had to get bondings as this was the only viable option for progression. I have grinded and grinded to help my guild and to get to this point. I have spent hours, days, weeks, months running mind numbingly, boring, hateful RNG and time gated content. Why? So you can nerf me so i have to do it all again?
I have x 3 rk 11 bonding's ready for upgrade. I just need cash for coal wards. And now you see, here's the thing.... what's the point of spending 3000 zen (just on wards for goodness sake!) ? To get these to 12 when in a couple of months (because it will get to us on console soon enough) for them to be nerfed back to the equivalent of rank 9/10? And then I have to spend a ton more cash again?
I have a dread enchantment which I thought was BiS and I have spent a ton on that. I think I saw a post saying Dreads and Vorpals will be nerfed as a subsequent result of these changes ? So now I need to spend again on upgrading a lightning or something? Millions of AD again...
And to get to rank 14 I need a new mark which only drops in the new dungeon (ToNG) or can be purchased for more AD? I can rarely get in FBI or SVA, let alone MSPC. And you are gonna nerf me so (a) the current content that I can just about do will now be extra difficult and even harder to get into, let alone complete and (b) make it harder to complete the new content which is the only thing I was looking forward to and (c) you are nerfing the AD from dungeons with this ridiculous random q system you want to implement. I like running dungeons. I specifically like running eTos. So I can only run this if i don't random q - which means no AD. Yes sure I might get a bit of salvage. Also green peridots too if I'm lucky! Really ? You really think this is a good thing? And i don't want to even think about pugging with the new system you propose.
And the worst is the deceit of it all. It has nothing to do with power creep or bondings being OP - as console players we are months behind pc and you knew about it within the pc community long before it hit consoles. This is all about greed. Plain and simple.
I have a few weeks of VIP left so I am going to wait for mod 12. And then I'm gone. I'm not staying for 12b. I'm not spending one more dime. You've broken the game. Ciao. Adios. I'm done.
To sum this all up – pretty much everyone I have discussed this change with in the game or online disagrees/hates it. Pretty much all see it as a simple money grab. Now it does not really matter whether the development team are doing this for money or to make the game better; the perception of the potential player base sees it as a money grab. If I was looking now at this game to decide if I wanted to make it my next playing experience, I would check it out online see these comments and pass.
Sometimes people’s perception of a thing is more important than the reality of that thing.
Pushing this change through will just hurt the feelings of the players, your customers – its bad business
The reason is CLEAR. Because the cause is NOT powershare, if we only had R12 Eldrtich the whole discussion would not exist...
If they did even attempt reducing support buff's in be the first nail in the coffer to support classes; so the only alternative would be to limit powershare to players only! Yet if that was done it would make the existing NERF to bonding far worse than it is now; yet would fail to correct the 9x advantage Bonding has over other equally ranked Runes.
The revised Bonding Changes address the cause not the symptom; while still leaving Bonding in a BiS role with 5x benefit. Most will likely maintain 3x Bonding stones in their companion, yet some might now want to pair 2 Bonding with an Empowered or other Rune. Now at least their are some viable options including for Augments.
Many may disagree with me. But my analysis I think is very FAIR & looks at a variety of options or alternatives having worked in technology for 20+ years. I compliment them on finding a solution which addressed the cause of the issue while restoring balance between Bonding and all other Runes in a very fair and appropriate way.
I think those who continue to attack Cyptic's decision are taking it 5 steps too far! It's going beyond debate to just encouraging or promoting TOXIC atmosphere. I'm not saying they will RETHINK the 50% uptime, but your certainly not winning sympathy to your cause. >:)
Honestly as another person stated earlier... ...285% of a companions Rune, Gear & Enchantments that also attacks with 3 or 4 powers, while also getting a dual higher buff of +2520 to offense or defense. That's 11x more powerful than every other Rune and the reason power share is a problem at the very core.
This is what you need to examine. 1st we have a given. a nerf will happen somewhere because of excessive damage in a portion of the players. Shouldn't the change affect MORE that target group and not the 10k-12k who is trying CN with one or no dc? The 12-14k who is trying FBI - SP? The players who are with r9 now and are trying to do dailies? Those are the groups that have "power creep"?? Simple answer NO
Bonding stones change affect everyone but the effect is way harder on low/mid part than on the top. The top will one way or the other make it back to r14... the other players wont adjust that fast and while they wont things will be harder for them. How much? even 1% is unjustified.We are supposed to move forward to the game, not backwards. To have a sense of progression.
Let me put it this way, most everyone here are saying what is NOT supposed to happen. That the easy part. I can say NO TO EVERYTHING too all day long. See? really easy.
Make an actual proposal that can happen in the next 3 weeks and will affect MOSTLY the target group that has the power creep and not the players who already struggle to even get in queues or having hard time doing the content.
Ask yourself this: Where does damage come from? 1st the power not to have diminishing returns (not judging if its right or wrong just stating a fact) 2nd the powershare gives its benefits X4 extra times through the companion 3rd Bonding stones too high as a % since mod 6 (maybe) 4th Buffs having multiplicative nature between them (each skill and from each class multiply with each other) so when we stack buff classes, the numbers increase exponentially
There are others too like weapon damage, skills etc but you really don't want to go there.
So from the above factors we can make a suggestion for 1 change. We need to see which is the major one, in order of effect and also keeping in mind the mid range and lower range groups. For that reason, power not having diminishing returns can stay since we can just eliminate the getting the power from other sources easier.
Buffs having multiplicative nature is helpful in all groups (low end, mid end, high end) because those are player / class based and can develop play style and synergy / strategy with other classes. So we are left with two.
1. bonding stone now (on new mod) offering almost half the stat points (17842) so a loss of 13k points. Even less if we calculate that we will also have r14 on our gears so the neat loss will be from 2300 points to 945 points depending on what gears you use on companion. This also affects multiple stats (what ever the companion offers such as crit armor pen etc which also asks for more money to be spend to adjust loss in stats. Specially armor pen for some.
2. Powesharing through companion using bonding that can give anything from +35k extra stat points to all the way to 210k stat points when you stack classes. To make sure people understand ITS NOT ABOUT DC its about the portion of the powershare that comes from all sources and affects bonding multiplying the powershare to the dps. To conpesate affect classes an adjustment can be made so they will powershare MORE but ONLY to the the players.
So what do we win We can keep bondings at 285% since lowering them doesn't do anything in the long run anyway. The groups that stack 2 dc and pally which is the vast majority on the higher end will have the desired effect of "lowering the damage" while we don't affect the low /mid and portion of the upper part. A good dc will be good dc, a good paly will be good paly. Those things wont change and players can keep their stats that they worked hard. also it will allow for other possible combos To be honest I don't care with what class I will do a dungeon, I want to do a dungeon.
Bringing in line the other ruins and/or augments. Complex subject but really easy to see where the problem is. We have a fact: People most always, will choose the path that gives them the desired result with the least amount of trouble.
You (the devs) wanted to tone down the bonding % as you felt its overpowered compared to others... Agreed. What did you achieve with that? Nothing. Its still better that any other ruin even with others giving more points. How much better? 95% exactly. The amount of stat share it offers. Now you kept saying on the last Stream that is better to tone down one and not raise the others.. I agree, but this is hardly enough and became pointless now.
So unless the other enchants offer the same share % of stats, as bondings do, but different stats (crit, armor pen etc), there is no way that anyone will justify losing 95% more stats from 3 gears and 9 enchants. Would you?
Now here is the catch. Powershare to the companions (again). Neither augment nor other ruins allow the powershare to go through. So you ask the player base to reconsider to switch to either augment and/or other ruins and lose 95% of own stats and 50k++ stats from powershare per source more or less. On top augments don't offer at the current point any support for mount bonuses that trigger by using companions. Even more stat loss.
I want to make something clear as far as I'm concerned. I do agree and promote with almost every other option and not nerfing. Harder content, Tiered dungeons, more dungeons for all, diminishing returns even, anything that makes me feel I'm moving forward and not backward...
But I'm also trying to stay focused to the topic of this thread. The devs wanted a change and a tone down to power creep. Who created that? sure not the players, but nevertheless it exists and the devs want it down. Since this is a given and at this point they will not do any of the above better solutions for x reasons, my goal was to suggest the least worst solution for us players. Trying to choose the lesser evil if you like.
As others showed too with facts and screens the nerf to bonding solved nothing, on contrary it creates problems to a big portion of the players. I think its better to reevaluate and see if we have a better solution for the power creep again given the situation we are now.
One way or the other if we try we will all win something. Better game for us within this situation we are in and the devs will succeed on their goal they set to do. WIN - WIN situation. Players will still upgrade to r14, every DD and their mothers will buy the new artifact, and we will all make our wep / armor to r13, and cryptic will get its money.
You got a better idea that can realistically happen in the given time frame from beta to live ?, Please speak and present the idea. But something that can be done. As I said I want to the old dungeons back? Will that happen now? NO I want legendary dungeons, will that happen now? Lvl 80 and adjusted mobs/bosses? Cant happen. Lets keep it real and within the time frame that we have.. From beta... to live.
Regardless of what I will call "good intentions", the impact on players state of mind toward these changes will be as listed above. The most likely result of players feeling this way will be "I can't be bothered.".
I would tend to agree. I just realized that I am spending a lot less time in the game now than a couple of weeks ago.
I started playing the game on day 1 of open beta (and I still have my Caturday Survivor cloak). When Mod 6 hit, I felt similar to what I feel now - it was a similar situation - I was pretty close to BiS , but the changes that were made then felt like something had been taken away from me. I ended up leaving the game for a year - only came back when the developers had realized they made a mistake and actually made things better.
I don't know what will happen now...I have no plans to leave, but if I do, it will be for good - why play a game, if I do not feel motivated to do so?
And speaking of motivation...
My main is a 16.2K IL DO DC - close to being fully BiS. Now, I do not have a problem getting into ToNG (or T9G, if you prefer). I have had a number of smooth runs there (and a few that were not quite as smooth), but for the last week, I haven't even bothered to go there.
There is a Neverwinter Siege event right now. The last time we had that, I participated with 8 of my alts. Now I just do it with one ... and barely that.
There is a Zen sale right now. In the past I have usually put some money in the game - bought Zen to spend during the 40% or 50% sale events. This time - well, do you think I feel motivated to spend my money?
There is a Zen sale right now. In the past I have usually put some money in the game - bought Zen to spend during the 40% or 50% sale events. This time - well, do you think I feel motivated to spend my money?
I don't think I'm alone.
You are NOT alone. This is the first charge bonus that I have not loaded up on Zen via my credit card. I usually do it in anticipation of upcoming Zen sales like you but this time - nope.
Wait, what? Dread and Vorpal being nerfed? WUT? My main is HR and these are two best weapon enchantments for HR. Please tell me it's not true
I guess what they mean is that with the bonding nerf, getting a 100% crit chance will be difficult or impossible, and since vorpal/dread both require you to crit... then their effectiveness will also be proportionally lower.
This a pain for HRs, as other enchants, feytouched for example, are seriously buggy with our powers. When I had a fey, I was limited to pg, Fox and longstriders, because everything else broke the fey buff.
Just to sum up the changes.
1) we are going to be nerfed to the tune of approx half our offensive pet stats. Major reductions in power - base damage, and crit chance. In my case about 15k power and 7.5k crit.
2) we are very incentivized to buy this back.
3) however with the daily AD queue change, and alts being disqualified due to lack of progression, acquiring "free" AD is going to become difficult.
4) however number 2, on our mains, completing dungeons with decent rewards, fbi tbh., in a timeframe that makes economic sense becomes downgraded. Not to mention the playerbase will be generally poorer, which will negatively impact AH sales and prices.
5) the requirement to run ToNG to acquire vital components for upgrading provides a nice catch22. The solution to which I am expecting will be expensive zenstore packs, to be announced undoubtably as a "gift" to the playerbase by the nice helpful devs, once enough people cry on the forums.
Results: powercreep temporarily solved. End gamers given something to spend their AD on. With a control mechanism - the possibility of an upgrade pack in the future - of ensuring Zen purchases, especially if the zax becomes massively backlogged.
In the interim, people will be switching out enchants to prop up crit, which is always an expensive business, and frustrations will lead to credit card use.
From cryptic's Pov. it's all win.
All I hope is that with this influx of cash, the game content will be improved, and the neglected classes will get an overhaul.
Wait, what? Dread and Vorpal being nerfed? WUT? My main is HR and these are two best weapon enchantments for HR. Please tell me it's not true
I guess what they mean is that with the bonding nerf, getting a 100% crit chance will be difficult or impossible, and since vorpal/dread both require you to crit... then their effectiveness will also be proportionally lower.
This a pain for HRs, as other enchants, feytouched for example, are seriously buggy with our powers. When I had a fey, I was limited to pg, Fox and longstriders, because everything else broke the fey buff.
Not only that, this update in general will make crit-based classes like HR and TR trail behind. Not only because of the bonding nerf, but because of the "upgraded" vorpal and dread. Holy avenger literally gains 9.66% more damage, while vorpal and dread get 5% increased severity and only vorpal gets a slight debuff increase (to 3%, instead of 2%). So it seems like they're trying to kill TRs completely.
How about they just auto rank our bonding 12s to 14.... then we bear no extra cost and remain where we are... let them gain new profits from the newer players whom havent already spent years grinding....
How about they just auto rank our bonding 12s to 14.... then we bear no extra cost and remain where we are... let them gain new profits from the newer players whom havent already spent years grinding....
No because we still wouldn't be nearly as strong. That is literally just a fraction of the stats we have now. 30% less per bonding R12 atm vs R14. That's not a good trade for anyone.
So we basically now just put all our azures to companion? What's the plan? We are crit-based class. Combat path won't be reliable now, since it looses crit chance in favor of crit sev. This is a very grim future we're facing.
Wait, what? Dread and Vorpal being nerfed? WUT? My main is HR and these are two best weapon enchantments for HR. Please tell me it's not true
I guess what they mean is that with the bonding nerf, getting a 100% crit chance will be difficult or impossible, and since vorpal/dread both require you to crit... then their effectiveness will also be proportionally lower.
This a pain for HRs, as other enchants, feytouched for example, are seriously buggy with our powers. When I had a fey, I was limited to pg, Fox and longstriders, because everything else broke the fey buff.
Not only that, this update in general will make crit-based classes like HR and TR trail behind. Not only because of the bonding nerf, but because of the "upgraded" vorpal and dread. Holy avenger literally gains 9.66% more damage, while vorpal and dread get 5% increased severity and only vorpal gets a slight debuff increase (to 3%, instead of 2%). So it seems like they're trying to kill TRs completely.
And i just got my dread to trans... recently... lol .. HAMSTER... i should have went with the holy A... HAMSTER...
> @gromovnipljesak#8234 said: > How about they just auto rank our bonding 12s to 14.... then we bear no extra cost and remain where we are... let them gain new profits from the newer players whom havent already spent years grinding.... > > No because we still wouldn't be nearly as strong. That is literally just a fraction of the stats we have now. 30% less per bonding R12 atm vs R14. That's not a good trade for anyone.
Umm... we all knew a nerf was coming. The stat drop im sure most of us can deal with. Its the extra cost to return to where we currently are thats the issue. Besides, most of the stat loss is made up with other enchants going to 14. Either way it should be an option. Its called feedback, not just what you want. Personally i would be ok with the nerf if i didnt need to spend another 6 months and 30 mil AD to be able to do what i can now. As im sure others would agree. The more options we offer the better chance we have of coming to an agreement we all can live with. Its gonna happen... best to realize it now.
@bratleyray ...ummm no. We can't. Outright losing 12k stats isn't something you can just make up with a few enchant upgrades. You'd have to put on at LEAST 6k more stats on your comp ALONG WITH the R14 upgrade. Besides, just simply changing R12 into R14 is harder than you think.
Wait, what? Dread and Vorpal being nerfed? WUT? My main is HR and these are two best weapon enchantments for HR. Please tell me it's not true
I guess what they mean is that with the bonding nerf, getting a 100% crit chance will be difficult or impossible, and since vorpal/dread both require you to crit... then their effectiveness will also be proportionally lower.
This a pain for HRs, as other enchants, feytouched for example, are seriously buggy with our powers. When I had a fey, I was limited to pg, Fox and longstriders, because everything else broke the fey buff.
Just to sum up the changes.
1) we are going to be nerfed to the tune of approx half our offensive pet stats. Major reductions in power - base damage, and crit chance. In my case about 15k power and 7.5k crit.
2) we are very incentivized to buy this back.
3) however with the daily AD queue change, and alts being disqualified due to lack of progression, acquiring "free" AD is going to become difficult.
4) however number 2, on our mains, completing dungeons with decent rewards, fbi tbh., in a timeframe that makes economic sense becomes downgraded. Not to mention the playerbase will be generally poorer, which will negatively impact AH sales and prices.
5) the requirement to run ToNG to acquire vital components for upgrading provides a nice catch22. The solution to which I am expecting will be expensive zenstore packs, to be announced undoubtably as a "gift" to the playerbase by the nice helpful devs, once enough people cry on the forums.
Results: powercreep temporarily solved. End gamers given something to spend their AD on. With a control mechanism - the possibility of an upgrade pack in the future - of ensuring Zen purchases, especially if the zax becomes massively backlogged.
In the interim, people will be switching out enchants to prop up crit, which is always an expensive business, and frustrations will lead to credit card use.
From cryptic's Pov. it's all win.
All I hope is that with this influx of cash, the game content will be improved, and the neglected classes will get an overhaul.
except a large number of people will quit instead of doing these things. I don't think their influx of cash will be as great as anticipated. most of us don't like dropping the soap....you'll get a very small subset who will knuckle down to do what it takes to get things back quickly but many more are going to be feeling demotivated by this. and feeling like yeah ok so I follow this fools path they've set before me. what happens 3 months out? do we rinse repeat? why should I bother???
@jonkoca The voice of reason, really. But I still don't want the bonds to be nerfed. They'll still profit off of this even without the nerf because some people want insta-BiS and there will be people like that. So yeah, no need to nerf. The only 22 I'm gonna catch tho is a .22 in my neck. There's just no excusing this.
Wait, what? Dread and Vorpal being nerfed? WUT? My main is HR and these are two best weapon enchantments for HR. Please tell me it's not true
I guess what they mean is that with the bonding nerf, getting a 100% crit chance will be difficult or impossible, and since vorpal/dread both require you to crit... then their effectiveness will also be proportionally lower.
This a pain for HRs, as other enchants, feytouched for example, are seriously buggy with our powers. When I had a fey, I was limited to pg, Fox and longstriders, because everything else broke the fey buff.
Just to sum up the changes.
1) we are going to be nerfed to the tune of approx half our offensive pet stats. Major reductions in power - base damage, and crit chance. In my case about 15k power and 7.5k crit.
2) we are very incentivized to buy this back.
3) however with the daily AD queue change, and alts being disqualified due to lack of progression, acquiring "free" AD is going to become difficult.
4) however number 2, on our mains, completing dungeons with decent rewards, fbi tbh., in a timeframe that makes economic sense becomes downgraded. Not to mention the playerbase will be generally poorer, which will negatively impact AH sales and prices.
5) the requirement to run ToNG to acquire vital components for upgrading provides a nice catch22. The solution to which I am expecting will be expensive zenstore packs, to be announced undoubtably as a "gift" to the playerbase by the nice helpful devs, once enough people cry on the forums.
Results: powercreep temporarily solved. End gamers given something to spend their AD on. With a control mechanism - the possibility of an upgrade pack in the future - of ensuring Zen purchases, especially if the zax becomes massively backlogged.
In the interim, people will be switching out enchants to prop up crit, which is always an expensive business, and frustrations will lead to credit card use.
From cryptic's Pov. it's all win.
All I hope is that with this influx of cash, the game content will be improved, and the neglected classes will get an overhaul.
except a large number of people will quit instead of doing these things. I don't think their influx of cash will be as great as anticipated. most of us don't like dropping the soap....you'll get a very small subset who will knuckle down to do what it takes to get things back quickly but many more are going to be feeling demotivated by this. and feeling like yeah ok so I follow this fools path they've set before me. what happens 3 months out? do we rinse repeat? why should I bother???
I've a feeling that is also a desired end. Those who quit, from cryptic's pov. weren't ever going to spend very much money on the game, they were however going to hog bandwidth and stress the servers. Especially if neverwinter is slowly heading for whatever heaven exists for free2play mmos and the budget for hardware maintainance and upgrading is limited. The random q feature ensures queues pop quickly even with a reduced playerbase, lessening the observable impact of fewer players. Derestricting pvp gear and making solo q a permanent thing does the same for pvp. Lol, perhaps this is the devs' version of their endgame.
The ones who stay will be the ones willing to pay, or at least more willing anyway.
No idea what my toon is now.
2
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
The reason is CLEAR. Because the cause is NOT powershare, if we only had R12 Eldrtich the whole discussion would not exist...
If they did even attempt reducing support buff's in be the first nail in the coffer to support classes; so the only alternative would be to limit powershare to players only! Yet if that was done it would make the existing NERF to bonding far worse than it is now; yet would fail to correct the 9x advantage Bonding has over other equally ranked Runes.
The revised Bonding Changes address the cause not the symptom; while still leaving Bonding in a BiS role with 5x benefit. Most will likely maintain 3x Bonding stones in their companion, yet some might now want to pair 2 Bonding with an Empowered or other Rune. Now at least their are some viable options including for Augments.
Many may disagree with me. But my analysis I think is very FAIR & looks at a variety of options or alternatives having worked in technology for 20+ years. I compliment them on finding a solution which addressed the cause of the issue while restoring balance between Bonding and all other Runes in a very fair and appropriate way.
I think those who continue to attack Cyptic's decision are taking it 5 steps too far! It's going beyond debate to just encouraging or promoting TOXIC atmosphere. I'm not saying they will RETHINK the 50% uptime, but your certainly not winning sympathy to your cause. >:)
Honestly as another person stated earlier... ...285% of a companions Rune, Gear & Enchantments that also attacks with 3 or 4 powers, while also getting a dual higher buff of +2520 to offense or defense. That's 11x more powerful than every other Rune and the reason power share is a problem at the very core.
This is what you need to examine. 1st we have a given. a nerf will happen somewhere because of excessive damage in a portion of the players. Shouldn't the change affect MORE that target group and not the 10k-12k who is trying CN with one or no dc? The 12-14k who is trying FBI - SP? The players who are with r9 now and are trying to do dailies? Those are the groups that have "power creep"?? Simple answer NO
Bonding stones change affect everyone but the effect is way harder on low/mid part than on the top. The top will one way or the other make it back to r14... the other players wont adjust that fast and while they wont things will be harder for them. How much? even 1% is unjustified.We are supposed to move forward to the game, not backwards. To have a sense of progression.
Let me put it this way, most everyone here are saying what is NOT supposed to happen. That the easy part. I can say NO TO EVERYTHING too all day long. See? really easy.
Make an actual proposal that can happen in the next 3 weeks and will affect MOSTLY the target group that has the power creep and not the players who already struggle to even get in queues or having hard time doing the content.
Ask yourself this: Where does damage come from? 1st the power not to have diminishing returns (not judging if its right or wrong just stating a fact) 2nd the powershare gives its benefits X4 extra times through the companion 3rd Bonding stones too high as a % since mod 6 (maybe) 4th Buffs having multiplicative nature between them (each skill and from each class multiply with each other) so when we stack buff classes, the numbers increase exponentially
There are others too like weapon damage, skills etc but you really don't want to go there.
So from the above factors we can make a suggestion for 1 change. We need to see which is the major one, in order of effect and also keeping in mind the mid range and lower range groups. For that reason, power not having diminishing returns can stay since we can just eliminate the getting the power from other sources easier.
Buffs having multiplicative nature is helpful in all groups (low end, mid end, high end) because those are player / class based and can develop play style and synergy / strategy with other classes. So we are left with two.
1. bonding stone now (on new mod) offering almost half the stat points (17842) so a loss of 13k points. Even less if we calculate that we will also have r14 on our gears so the neat loss will be from 2300 points to 945 points depending on what gears you use on companion. This also affects multiple stats (what ever the companion offers such as crit armor pen etc which also asks for more money to be spend to adjust loss in stats. Specially armor pen for some.
2. Powesharing through companion using bonding that can give anything from +35k extra stat points to all the way to 210k stat points when you stack classes. To make sure people understand ITS NOT ABOUT DC its about the portion of the powershare that comes from all sources and affects bonding multiplying the powershare to the dps. To conpesate affect classes an adjustment can be made so they will powershare MORE but ONLY to the the players.
So what do we win We can keep bondings at 285% since lowering them doesn't do anything in the long run anyway. The groups that stack 2 dc and pally which is the vast majority on the higher end will have the desired effect of "lowering the damage" while we don't affect the low /mid and portion of the upper part. A good dc will be good dc, a good paly will be good paly. Those things wont change and players can keep their stats that they worked hard. also it will allow for other possible combos To be honest I don't care with what class I will do a dungeon, I want to do a dungeon.
Bringing in line the other ruins and/or augments. Complex subject but really easy to see where the problem is. We have a fact: People most always, will choose the path that gives them the desired result with the least amount of trouble.
You (the devs) wanted to tone down the bonding % as you felt its overpowered compared to others... Agreed. What did you achieve with that? Nothing. Its still better that any other ruin even with others giving more points. How much better? 95% exactly. The amount of stat share it offers. Now you kept saying on the last Stream that is better to tone down one and not raise the others.. I agree, but this is hardly enough and became pointless now.
So unless the other enchants offer the same share % of stats, as bondings do, but different stats (crit, armor pen etc), there is no way that anyone will justify losing 95% more stats from 3 gears and 9 enchants. Would you?
Now here is the catch. Powershare to the companions (again). Neither augment nor other ruins allow the powershare to go through. So you ask the player base to reconsider to switch to either augment and/or other ruins and lose 95% of own stats and 50k++ stats from powershare per source more or less. On top augments don't offer at the current point any support for mount bonuses that trigger by using companions. Even more stat loss.
I want to make something clear as far as I'm concerned. I do agree and promote with almost every other option and not nerfing. Harder content, Tiered dungeons, more dungeons for all, diminishing returns even, anything that makes me feel I'm moving forward and not backward...
But I'm also trying to stay focused to the topic of this thread. The devs wanted a change and a tone down to power creep. Who created that? sure not the players, but nevertheless it exists and the devs want it down. Since this is a given and at this point they will not do any of the above better solutions for x reasons, my goal was to suggest the least worst solution for us players. Trying to choose the lesser evil if you like.
As others showed too with facts and screens the nerf to bonding solved nothing, on contrary it creates problems to a big portion of the players. I think its better to reevaluate and see if we have a better solution for the power creep again given the situation we are now.
One way or the other if we try we will all win something. Better game for us within this situation we are in and the devs will succeed on their goal they set to do. WIN - WIN situation. Players will still upgrade to r14, every DD and their mothers will buy the new artifact, and we will all make our wep / armor to r13, and cryptic will get its money.
You got a better idea that can realistically happen in the given time frame from beta to live ?, Please speak and present the idea. But something that can be done. As I said I want to the old dungeons back? Will that happen now? NO I want legendary dungeons, will that happen now? Lvl 80 and adjusted mobs/bosses? Cant happen. Lets keep it real and within the time frame that we have.. From beta... to live.
Thank you
I agree lower players do not play with 2 clerics 1 op they struggle to even find a 1 support, change to powershare will not affect them but a change to a bonding runestone will decrease their personal stats .
What will happen if this goes live will nerf all other classes that powershare trough the companion also will nerf the low players in exchange the powershare classes to keep transfer the power to the companion and then the buffed power companion to player trough bonding (x2 buff).
Sure. I'd be happy to. We set the minimal (not minimum, reading comprehension peoples) at 13k as around a slight buffer on the entry level is optimal. Augments Epic/Legendary Rank, R7s as Enchants.
But since you apparently lack any semblance of manners or self control and you haven't payed me nearly enough to earn the right to insult me, I'll be needing reasonable compensation for my time.
Be waiting on that, cupcake.
I don't think you know what proof means (reading comprehension bro). Typing some words aiin't proof so i still stay you're full of it.
Minimal: of a minimum amount, quantity, or degree; negligible. Minimum is literally in the definition. Setting your own 'minimal' threshold higher than the 'minimum' requirements and prancing around saying everyone else is doing something wrong is pretty lacking of manners. tsk tsk.
Reasonable compensation? Since you like taking a subjective word, applying your own interpretation and coming to an objective conclusion: i didn't swear at you in this post. There's your compensation. i think it's totally reasonable.
Aaaaanyways, it's 11:30 in Washington so the devs definitely should've came and read a few of these already, their forheads are sweaty, moms spaghetti. I want to like the updates, and I WANT to support you, but if this update happens, I won't be able to. And same probably goes for a lot of other people.
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,480Arc User
edited September 2017
Hmmm! Lowbies and new players are not using bonding, right? Or, they are these days. For me, using bonding are not exactly lowbie or new players.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
"If if that was the case, if it was something then I probably was chasing. I would have never gotten it. That was the whole point, if you chase something, then sometimes you never get it. uh huh if you put forth to work and all the attitude, next you know it's bestowed upon you." -- Michael Jordan
Comments
> In any MMO if one thing is at a massive advantage, it's clear it needs to be corrected; especially if it's the only thing everybody uses. A game without different choices for different classes/feats/companions or builds would not be exciting. Bondings left alone basically equate to a "God Mode Cheat" being permitted in the game.
In any MMO, If one thing is a massive advantage, the PRICE goes UP naturally. This makes up for the balancing. You forget to say that bondings cost a millions times more than an eldrich.
Everybody has bondings right now, and 99% of players did not complain about a "lack of choice" concerning this issue. It's even the opposite: Everyone wants to keep this single choice (bondings), as you can overwhelmingly read in the forums. (Well no that they would mind if other altenatives where given to them, like buffed Eldrich..but not taking away what they already worked for)
God Mode Cheat ?! Really ?! Maybe you are talking about the 0,1% of top players who do speedruns. I'm a DC, i've 3xR12 bonding. Every single player of my team has 3xR12 Bondings. We are between iL 11k and 13k. and we still struggle a LOT (2 hours) to finish FBI.
Besides, don't forget that being able to do speedrun is fun. The whole point about gaming is that it's fun. For example, i do speedruns on etos...you might laugh it this, but it suits my item level and my team...
This game is not Call of duty or Doom: it's a cooperative game you play against the AI. Who cares if one item is a bit more powerful than another.... i'm not gonna deny you any AD or loot if i'm more powerful than i should be. It's even the opposite : I can help ppl who normally would not be able to finish CN. It's a cooperative game, not a "versus" game: why do you care if i have 100k power rather than 80k ?
This post is not personnal against you. i'm aware it's written maybe in a personnal talk manner, but it's not my goal (it's because my english is not perfect, sorry about this)
I even support a tone down of bonding runestones. What I can't stand is the fact that they want to resell us the same power again for the same content. It's not the change itself, it's the attitude. They are slowly streamlining the game so that any progress is tied to buying wards and painful grind. The game is becoming more and more a boring grind and want they offer us is more grind. The next step I expect will be removing coal wards from the Crypt of Piety and tying the whole game to the ZEN market making it a pay-to-advance game.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
I have spent a lot of time and money to get where I am in this game. I had to get bondings as this was the only viable option for progression. I have grinded and grinded to help my guild and to get to this point. I have spent hours, days, weeks, months running mind numbingly, boring, hateful RNG and time gated content. Why? So you can nerf me so i have to do it all again?
I have x 3 rk 11 bonding's ready for upgrade. I just need cash for coal wards. And now you see, here's the thing.... what's the point of spending 3000 zen (just on wards for goodness sake!) ? To get these to 12 when in a couple of months (because it will get to us on console soon enough) for them to be nerfed back to the equivalent of rank 9/10? And then I have to spend a ton more cash again?
I have a dread enchantment which I thought was BiS and I have spent a ton on that. I think I saw a post saying Dreads and Vorpals will be nerfed as a subsequent result of these changes ? So now I need to spend again on upgrading a lightning or something? Millions of AD again...
And to get to rank 14 I need a new mark which only drops in the new dungeon (ToNG) or can be purchased for more AD? I can rarely get in FBI or SVA, let alone MSPC. And you are gonna nerf me so (a) the current content that I can just about do will now be extra difficult and even harder to get into, let alone complete and (b) make it harder to complete the new content which is the only thing I was looking forward to and (c) you are nerfing the AD from dungeons with this ridiculous random q system you want to implement. I like running dungeons. I specifically like running eTos. So I can only run this if i don't random q - which means no AD. Yes sure I might get a bit of salvage. Also green peridots too if I'm lucky! Really ? You really think this is a good thing? And i don't want to even think about pugging with the new system you propose.
And the worst is the deceit of it all. It has nothing to do with power creep or bondings being OP - as console players we are months behind pc and you knew about it within the pc community long before it hit consoles. This is all about greed. Plain and simple.
I have a few weeks of VIP left so I am going to wait for mod 12. And then I'm gone. I'm not staying for 12b. I'm not spending one more dime. You've broken the game. Ciao. Adios. I'm done.
Sometimes people’s perception of a thing is more important than the reality of that thing.
Pushing this change through will just hurt the feelings of the players, your customers – its bad business
Have fun all
Bonding stones change affect everyone but the effect is way harder on low/mid part than on the top. The top will one way or the other make it back to r14... the other players wont adjust that fast and while they wont things will be harder for them. How much? even 1% is unjustified.We are supposed to move forward to the game, not backwards. To have a sense of progression.
Let me put it this way, most everyone here are saying what is NOT supposed to happen. That the easy part. I can say NO TO EVERYTHING too all day long. See? really easy.
Make an actual proposal that can happen in the next 3 weeks and will affect MOSTLY the target group that has the power creep and not the players who already struggle to even get in queues or having hard time doing the content.
Ask yourself this: Where does damage come from?
1st the power not to have diminishing returns (not judging if its right or wrong just stating a fact)
2nd the powershare gives its benefits X4 extra times through the companion
3rd Bonding stones too high as a % since mod 6 (maybe)
4th Buffs having multiplicative nature between them (each skill and from each class multiply with each other) so when we stack buff classes, the numbers increase exponentially
There are others too like weapon damage, skills etc but you really don't want to go there.
So from the above factors we can make a suggestion for 1 change. We need to see which is the major one, in order of effect and also keeping in mind the mid range and lower range groups. For that reason, power not having diminishing returns can stay since we can just eliminate the getting the power from other sources easier.
Buffs having multiplicative nature is helpful in all groups (low end, mid end, high end) because those are player / class based and can develop play style and synergy / strategy with other classes. So we are left with two.
1. bonding stone now (on new mod) offering almost half the stat points (17842) so a loss of 13k points. Even less if we calculate that we will also have r14 on our gears so the neat loss will be from 2300 points to 945 points depending on what gears you use on companion. This also affects multiple stats (what ever the companion offers such as crit armor pen etc which also asks for more money to be spend to adjust loss in stats. Specially armor pen for some.
2. Powesharing through companion using bonding that can give anything from +35k extra stat points to all the way to 210k stat points when you stack classes. To make sure people understand ITS NOT ABOUT DC its about the portion of the powershare that comes from all sources and affects bonding multiplying the powershare to the dps. To conpesate affect classes an adjustment can be made so they will powershare MORE but ONLY to the the players.
So what do we win We can keep bondings at 285% since lowering them doesn't do anything in the long run anyway. The groups that stack 2 dc and pally which is the vast majority on the higher end will have the desired effect of "lowering the damage" while we don't affect the low /mid and portion of the upper part. A good dc will be good dc, a good paly will be good paly. Those things wont change and players can keep their stats that they worked hard. also it will allow for other possible combos To be honest I don't care with what class I will do a dungeon, I want to do a dungeon.
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Bringing in line the other ruins and/or augments. Complex subject but really easy to see where the problem is.
We have a fact: People most always, will choose the path that gives them the desired result with the least amount of trouble.
You (the devs) wanted to tone down the bonding % as you felt its overpowered compared to others... Agreed. What did you achieve with that? Nothing. Its still better that any other ruin even with others giving more points. How much better? 95% exactly. The amount of stat share it offers. Now you kept saying on the last Stream that is better to tone down one and not raise the others.. I agree, but this is hardly enough and became pointless now.
So unless the other enchants offer the same share % of stats, as bondings do, but different stats (crit, armor pen etc), there is no way that anyone will justify losing 95% more stats from 3 gears and 9 enchants. Would you?
Now here is the catch. Powershare to the companions (again).
Neither augment nor other ruins allow the powershare to go through. So you ask the player base to reconsider to switch to either augment and/or other ruins and lose 95% of own stats and 50k++ stats from powershare per source more or less. On top augments don't offer at the current point any support for mount bonuses that trigger by using companions. Even more stat loss.
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I want to make something clear as far as I'm concerned. I do agree and promote with almost every other option and not nerfing. Harder content, Tiered dungeons, more dungeons for all, diminishing returns even, anything that makes me feel I'm moving forward and not backward...
But I'm also trying to stay focused to the topic of this thread. The devs wanted a change and a tone down to power creep. Who created that? sure not the players, but nevertheless it exists and the devs want it down. Since this is a given and at this point they will not do any of the above better solutions for x reasons, my goal was to suggest the least worst solution for us players. Trying to choose the lesser evil if you like.
As others showed too with facts and screens the nerf to bonding solved nothing, on contrary it creates problems to a big portion of the players. I think its better to reevaluate and see if we have a better solution for the power creep again given the situation we are now.
One way or the other if we try we will all win something. Better game for us within this situation we are in and the devs will succeed on their goal they set to do. WIN - WIN situation. Players will still upgrade to r14, every DD and their mothers will buy the new artifact, and we will all make our wep / armor to r13, and cryptic will get its money.
You got a better idea that can realistically happen in the given time frame from beta to live ?,
Please speak and present the idea.
But something that can be done. As I said I want to the old dungeons back? Will that happen now? NO I want legendary dungeons, will that happen now? Lvl 80 and adjusted mobs/bosses? Cant happen. Lets keep it real and within the time frame that we have.. From beta... to live.
Thank you
Wait, what? Dread and Vorpal being nerfed? WUT? My main is HR and these are two best weapon enchantments for HR. Please tell me it's not true
I started playing the game on day 1 of open beta (and I still have my Caturday Survivor cloak). When Mod 6 hit, I felt similar to what I feel now - it was a similar situation - I was pretty close to BiS , but the changes that were made then felt like something had been taken away from me. I ended up leaving the game for a year - only came back when the developers had realized they made a mistake and actually made things better.
I don't know what will happen now...I have no plans to leave, but if I do, it will be for good - why play a game, if I do not feel motivated to do so?
And speaking of motivation...
My main is a 16.2K IL DO DC - close to being fully BiS. Now, I do not have a problem getting into ToNG (or T9G, if you prefer). I have had a number of smooth runs there (and a few that were not quite as smooth), but for the last week, I haven't even bothered to go there.
There is a Neverwinter Siege event right now. The last time we had that, I participated with 8 of my alts. Now I just do it with one ... and barely that.
There is a Zen sale right now. In the past I have usually put some money in the game - bought Zen to spend during the 40% or 50% sale events. This time - well, do you think I feel motivated to spend my money?
I don't think I'm alone.
On that note, have you reconsidered anything? It's the best path to go, really. Just, avoid the massive nerf.
This a pain for HRs, as other enchants, feytouched for example, are seriously buggy with our powers. When I had a fey, I was limited to pg, Fox and longstriders, because everything else broke the fey buff.
Just to sum up the changes.
1) we are going to be nerfed to the tune of approx half our offensive pet stats. Major reductions in power - base damage, and crit chance. In my case about 15k power and 7.5k crit.
2) we are very incentivized to buy this back.
3) however with the daily AD queue change, and alts being disqualified due to lack of progression, acquiring "free" AD is going to become difficult.
4) however number 2, on our mains, completing dungeons with decent rewards, fbi tbh., in a timeframe that makes economic sense becomes downgraded. Not to mention the playerbase will be generally poorer, which will negatively impact AH sales and prices.
5) the requirement to run ToNG to acquire vital components for upgrading provides a nice catch22. The solution to which I am expecting will be expensive zenstore packs, to be announced undoubtably as a "gift" to the playerbase by the nice helpful devs, once enough people cry on the forums.
Results: powercreep temporarily solved. End gamers given something to spend their AD on. With a control mechanism - the possibility of an upgrade pack in the future - of ensuring Zen purchases, especially if the zax becomes massively backlogged.
In the interim, people will be switching out enchants to prop up crit, which is always an expensive business, and frustrations will lead to credit card use.
From cryptic's Pov. it's all win.
All I hope is that with this influx of cash, the game content will be improved, and the neglected classes will get an overhaul.
[The Legendary Outlaws] (Guildhall 20)
So we basically now just put all our azures to companion? What's the plan? We are crit-based class. Combat path won't be reliable now, since it looses crit chance in favor of crit sev. This is a very grim future we're facing.
And i just got my dread to trans... recently... lol .. HAMSTER... i should have went with the holy A... HAMSTER...
> How about they just auto rank our bonding 12s to 14.... then we bear no extra cost and remain where we are... let them gain new profits from the newer players whom havent already spent years grinding....
>
> No because we still wouldn't be nearly as strong. That is literally just a fraction of the stats we have now. 30% less per bonding R12 atm vs R14. That's not a good trade for anyone.
Umm... we all knew a nerf was coming. The stat drop im sure most of us can deal with. Its the extra cost to return to where we currently are thats the issue. Besides, most of the stat loss is made up with other enchants going to 14. Either way it should be an option. Its called feedback, not just what you want. Personally i would be ok with the nerf if i didnt need to spend another 6 months and 30 mil AD to be able to do what i can now. As im sure others would agree. The more options we offer the better chance we have of coming to an agreement we all can live with. Its gonna happen... best to realize it now.
[The Legendary Outlaws] (Guildhall 20)
...ummm no. We can't. Outright losing 12k stats isn't something you can just make up with a few enchant upgrades. You'd have to put on at LEAST 6k more stats on your comp ALONG WITH the R14 upgrade. Besides, just simply changing R12 into R14 is harder than you think.
The voice of reason, really. But I still don't want the bonds to be nerfed. They'll still profit off of this even without the nerf because some people want insta-BiS and there will be people like that. So yeah, no need to nerf.
The only 22 I'm gonna catch tho is a .22 in my neck. There's just no excusing this.
Also... *khm*.... JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON
The ones who stay will be the ones willing to pay, or at least more willing anyway.
What will happen if this goes live will nerf all other classes that powershare trough the companion also will nerf the low players in exchange the powershare classes to keep transfer the power to the companion and then the buffed power companion to player trough bonding (x2 buff).
Minimal: of a minimum amount, quantity, or degree; negligible. Minimum is literally in the definition. Setting your own 'minimal' threshold higher than the 'minimum' requirements and prancing around saying everyone else is doing something wrong is pretty lacking of manners. tsk tsk.
Reasonable compensation? Since you like taking a subjective word, applying your own interpretation and coming to an objective conclusion: i didn't swear at you in this post. There's your compensation. i think it's totally reasonable.
Aaaaanyways, it's 11:30 in Washington so the devs definitely should've came and read a few of these already, their forheads are sweaty, moms spaghetti.
I want to like the updates, and I WANT to support you, but if this update happens, I won't be able to. And same probably goes for a lot of other people.