It's great, but what you want is irrelevant when the Devs positioned an Item to have the best value/return, and where warned about it. Again, like I've said in that post, one player can do, is not an indicator of an average expiriance.
The devs made a mistake in making bondings as powerful as they are. There were dire (and correct) warnings on the forum at the time. They made a mistake in letting it go on so long. That makes it hard to make changes now.
They made a mistake in how the changes were introduced. Many players did build around bonding because it gave by far the best return on investment. They should have offered an exchange mechanism for players that wish they had made a similar investment in something else after the change in meta (since they let the brokenness go on for so long).
Many players made mistakes in their reaction. Some assumed a nefarious purpose. Some attacked the devs personally (that's never OK!) Some assumed that something posted in an Official Feedback Thread is written in stone. Some assumed the game will become unplayable by all but some privileged 1%.
At least in the United States, we live in a world where "the other side" is treated as if it's some great evil out to get us. It's an incredible failure when two sides can't have a civil discussion about a point of disagreement and come to a compromise that's reasonable for all.
I'm here as a player to stand up for what I think is right. I will challenge statements that I find factually false. By all means, challenge my statements that you find factually false. I'll respect you for it if you bring facts and civility to the discussion. Don't throw labels on me or anyone else that disagrees with your perspective. That's just wrong.
PS - The skill involved in the R6 video is "keep moving, dodge attack animations, don't stand in red." Nothing more.
PPS - Power transfer is what gives bondings their true power. Watch for that to be addressed at some point. Try to be civil about it, and try to trust that the system designers will rebalance the game as appropriate.
It's great, but what you want is irrelevant when the Devs positioned an Item to have the best value/return, and where warned about it. Again, like I've said in that post, one player can do, is not an indicator of an average expiriance.
The devs made a mistake in making bondings as powerful as they are. There were dire (and correct) warnings on the forum at the time. They made a mistake in letting it go on so long. That makes it hard to make changes now.
They made a mistake in how the changes were introduced. Many players did build around bonding because it gave by far the best return on investment. They should have offered an exchange mechanism for players that wish they had made a similar investment in something else after the change in meta (since they let the brokenness go on for so long).
Many players made mistakes in their reaction. Some assumed a nefarious purpose. Some attacked the devs personally (that's never OK!) Some assumed that something posted in an Official Feedback Thread is written in stone. Some assumed the game will become unplayable by all but some privileged 1%.
At least in the United States, we live in a world where "the other side" is treated as if it's some great evil out to get us. It's an incredible failure when two sides can't have a civil discussion about a point of disagreement and come to a compromise that's reasonable for all.
I'm here as a player to stand up for what I think is right. I will challenge statements that I find factually false. By all means, challenge my statements that you find factually false. I'll respect you for it if you bring facts and civility to the discussion. Don't throw labels on me or anyone else that disagrees with your perspective. That's just wrong.
PS - The skill involved in the R6 video is "keep moving, dodge attack animations, don't stand in red." Nothing more.
Where I threw labels ?
Yes, as I've said, I can do it too, for now, If I was 10 years older I probably wouldn't be able to, or if didn't have thousands of hours playing games. It's not something new, or because of bondings, I've always of the opinion that dailies must be casual friendly and easier. And the dungeons (group content in general) harder (requiring team work, etc..).
But this is moot, again, the dungeon is a DPS check, you can be the best dodger, good enough to go naked, and you will fail, because there is a timer, in first it's the Temp HP, and the last it's the souls.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
I did test it, and I lost at least 10% crit and have to completely rebuild my character to get it back. I may get there like what 30 million AD? (I can only dream of that much AD) from now.
How much does a loss of 10% crit affect your game play?
That's not a rhetorical question. It's helpful in striking a new balance to see player feedback about how the changes affect the things they do in the game. Is there something you used to win that now you can't? Is something taking 1% longer, 10%, twice as long? The developers acknowledged in their initial post a need to rebalance content along with the bonding change. Specific player feedback helps to strike a good balance.
PPS - Power transfer is what gives bondings their true power. Watch for that to be addressed at some point. Try to be civil about it, and try to trust that the system designers will rebalance the game as appropriate.
No I wont, trust that is.
I think after we agree that they made the mistake with dragging the bondings for so long and making the change to begin with. They made the same thing with lostmauth. They made the same thing with classes, and incapable of balancing (for various reasons, like lack of time or priority or what not) and there is a class that's the HAMSTER child that is less wanted for 12 mods in PvE then why you ask me to trust them ?
We warned repeatedly about thing, we warn now. And everyone categorically get all chalked off as doomsayers. Because "the dev knows best" and "trust the devs"
I don't accept blind faith, not here, not anywhere. And it goes both ways, I will not call the devs idiots, or what not, but I will also not accept that they are some geniuses that always have the best solution. Everyone are the same human for better or worse. And trust is earned, and suggestions are judged by their merit, and not by the name attached on the proposal.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
Just that Augments don't die and give a clear advantage in some content, such as 2nd boss Turtle in FBI or the Stonegazer boss in MSP.
Companion's Gift doesn't fall off just because a companion dies. That used to be the case. Note how the buff icon remains active while the companion is dead and until it begins to respawn. That's one of the "lack of trade-offs" that the previous changes to bonding runestones created.
Just that Augments don't die and give a clear advantage in some content, such as 2nd boss Turtle in FBI or the Stonegazer boss in MSP.
Companion's Gift doesn't fall off just because a companion dies. That used to be the case. Note how the buff icon remains active while the companion is dead and until it begins to respawn. That's one of the "lack of trade-offs" that the previous changes to bonding runestones created.
Turtle in FBI, second Boss in SP, and last boss in T9G can perma kill companions by throwing them into the water / off the platform. FYI, if this happens now on T9G for the dps, it's most likely a wipe, and the group restarts.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
Turtle in FBI, second Boss in SP, and last boss in T9G can perma kill companions by throwing them into the water / off the platform. FYI, if this happens now on T9G for the dps, it's most likely a wipe, and the group restarts.
Ah, I hadn't noticed. Thanks for clarifying that. I mostly run these days with my DO DC who uses an augment. Definitely bugs that need to be addressed.
PPS - Power transfer is what gives bondings their true power. Watch for that to be addressed at some point. Try to be civil about it, and try to trust that the system designers will rebalance the game as appropriate.
No I wont, trust that is.
I think after we agree that they made the mistake with dragging the bondings for so long and making the change to begin with. They made the same thing with lostmauth. They made the same thing with classes, and incapable of balancing (for various reasons, like lack of time or priority or what not) and there is a class that's the HAMSTER child that is less wanted for 12 mods in PvE then why you ask me to trust them ?
We warned repeatedly about thing, we warn now. And everyone categorically get all chalked off as doomsayers. Because "the dev knows best" and "trust the devs"
I don't accept blind faith, not here, not anywhere. And it goes both ways, I will not call the devs idiots, or what not, but I will also not accept that they are some geniuses that always have the best solution. Everyone are the same human for better or worse. And trust is earned, and suggestions are judged by their merit, and not by the name attached on the proposal.
This was no mistake. It was deliberate. Cryptic created this bubble, fostered it, reaped the benefits and is now going to pop it. Moreover, it was probably the idea of some half-wit accountant that spends his/her days looking at spreadsheets that doesn't even play the game. I'm pretty sure there are some very heated debates going on inside the halls at Cryptic between the developers and management, and management is going to win.
It's great, but what you want is irrelevant when the Devs positioned an Item to have the best value/return, and where warned about it. Again, like I've said in that post, one player can do, is not an indicator of an average expiriance.
The devs made a mistake in making bondings as powerful as they are. There were dire (and correct) warnings on the forum at the time. They made a mistake in letting it go on so long. That makes it hard to make changes now.
They made a mistake in how the changes were introduced. Many players did build around bonding because it gave by far the best return on investment. They should have offered an exchange mechanism for players that wish they had made a similar investment in something else after the change in meta (since they let the brokenness go on for so long).
Many players made mistakes in their reaction. Some assumed a nefarious purpose. Some attacked the devs personally (that's never OK!) Some assumed that something posted in an Official Feedback Thread is written in stone. Some assumed the game will become unplayable by all but some privileged 1%.
I am glad you admit culpability and acknowledge compensation is due. I look forward to hearing more about how we will be compensated for the money we spent due to the developers' mistakes.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
It's great, but what you want is irrelevant when the Devs positioned an Item to have the best value/return, and where warned about it. Again, like I've said in that post, one player can do, is not an indicator of an average expiriance.
The devs made a mistake in making bondings as powerful as they are. There were dire (and correct) warnings on the forum at the time. They made a mistake in letting it go on so long. That makes it hard to make changes now.
They made a mistake in how the changes were introduced. Many players did build around bonding because it gave by far the best return on investment. They should have offered an exchange mechanism for players that wish they had made a similar investment in something else after the change in meta (since they let the brokenness go on for so long).
Many players made mistakes in their reaction. Some assumed a nefarious purpose. Some attacked the devs personally (that's never OK!) Some assumed that something posted in an Official Feedback Thread is written in stone. Some assumed the game will become unplayable by all but some privileged 1%.
At least in the United States, we live in a world where "the other side" is treated as if it's some great evil out to get us. It's an incredible failure when two sides can't have a civil discussion about a point of disagreement and come to a compromise that's reasonable for all.
I'm here as a player to stand up for what I think is right. I will challenge statements that I find factually false. By all means, challenge my statements that you find factually false. I'll respect you for it if you bring facts and civility to the discussion. Don't throw labels on me or anyone else that disagrees with your perspective. That's just wrong.
PS - The skill involved in the R6 video is "keep moving, dodge attack animations, don't stand in red." Nothing more.
PPS - Power transfer is what gives bondings their true power. Watch for that to be addressed at some point. Try to be civil about it, and try to trust that the system designers will rebalance the game as appropriate.
Well at least they didn't call us Bonding Stone Exploiters like they did when they called us all chest decline exploiters in keygate.
Lesson of the day, if you are going to kick a can down the road the 2 years, stop fixing what ain't broken (pointing my finger to the Queue/Bonus AD changes) and focus what limited resources you do have on improving what is. Otherwise don't be upset if we take for granted what you refused to fix.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Turtle in FBI, second Boss in SP, and last boss in T9G can perma kill companions by throwing them into the water / off the platform. FYI, if this happens now on T9G for the dps, it's most likely a wipe, and the group restarts.
Ah, I hadn't noticed. Thanks for clarifying that. I mostly run these days with my DO DC who uses an augment. Definitely bugs that need to be addressed.
As a Paladin main, I am absolutely expecting a nerf to powersharing.
We need to do decent buffs within the normal range of other support classes. A removal of power share via companion will reduce Pally power buffing by 75%.
I would suggest either changing Aura Gifts to a flat DPS boost or up-scaling the damage from Aura of Courage.
Aura Gifts to a flat DPS is a more predictable/controllable method. Currently, and unlike the DC, GF & MoF CW, an OP's buffs are linked to their gear (power & HP stats) meaning that only a high level OP can buff well. As higher stat gear comes out, pally buffing increases, so a change to a flat buff neutralises this permanently.
AoC is probably simpler - as long as one bug with AoC is addressed: currently, more than one point in AoC only increases Pally damage - it does not increase that done by others in the party.
After fixing the AoC bug it would be easy enough to test & tweak such a small change.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
The video is in response to a player that said he can't test the reduced power bondings on Preview because he dies every few seconds in the jungles of Chult without the original bonding stats.
The point is that a toon should not revolve around a single item of gear, and that a well-rounded toon can do just fine in Chult without bondings, indeed without R12 offense/defense enchants. If character power comes from a single gear item rather than layers of abilities and player skill, it devolves to an arcade shoot'em. I don't want Neverwinter to be that.
We live in a climate where people that express an opinion you don't share denigrated (just watch the news for plenty of examples). Rather than calling people that we disagree trolls or whatnot, let's try and understand their point of view.
It's great, but what you want is irrelevant when the Devs positioned an Item to have the best value/return, and where warned about it. Again, like I've said in that post, one player can do, is not an indicator of an average expiriance.
They needed to correct bonding to allow the game to grow over the next 5+ years. It also the reason why R7/R8/R9 duplicate enchantments & runes are no longer required (which many have been asking for 1-2 years) since they originally went away with R10-R12 when SMOP's were first introduced.
Note a R7 Bonding also starts at 30% augmentation not 20%; yet the augmentation growth is more stable and consistent similar to how power growth.
Still a R14 Bonding represents a greater than 4 to 1 Benefit over a R14 Eldritch. A R14 Bonding will give +1040 to either Offense or Defense but also a 65% Augmentation boost. A R14 Eldritch will provide 25% and only if loaded into a companions 0-3 defensive slots. That's 4x greater benefit before you factor in that bonding gives not only benefits the companion who have 3 to 4 attack powers, but still passes those same benefits along to the player at a far greater rate.
The Augment has no attack powers to trigger the bonding augment boost; but at least now with Eldritch R14 being expanded up to 25% augments are a viable option with this and other Runes. Also depending on a players Class, Feat Choices, or their Companion some (not all) might prefer pairing 2 Bonding Stones with another Rune.
For example: You may wish to slot an Empowered to give your Companion greater hit points. Now it's not just a one sized fit's all solution there are finally options to explore based on your Class/Feat Choices/Companion or overall build.
Alright, I'll admit - I was a bit offensive in the video, so if you want the link, PM me here or on reddit or something.
But I'm gonna make an analysis here 'cause I can - just a "small" one.
Solo:
Base power - 35k
Power 72k with EVERYTHING procced - bondings, slam 25% bonus base power, brutality, protector's camaraderie, elvish fury, primal arm pieces and rampaging madness.
Power 56k with ONLY BONDINGS.
Base crit - 15.5k roughly
Crit with bondings - 27k
Base armor pen - 3.3k
Armpen with bondings - 8.5 to 8.6k
That is with 2x loyal avenger + 1x greater krig ring on companion. Some R8s on defensive slots and R11s and 12s on offensive (1x azure and 2x radiant r11, 1x brutal r12)
Now, the power share - "group" stats:
Base power - 36-37k
Power with EVERYTHING procced, not peak but close to it - 230k
Power with EVERYTHING procced, average - about 155-170k
Crit and Armor pen stay the same.
Defense and deflect when solo vs when in group:
Solo 5666 defense vs 20k+ defense when in a group
Solo 909 deflect vs 15k deflect when in a group.
Companion stats:
Defense - 560
Recovery - 475
Armor pen - 1569
Critical strike - 3448
Power - 6043
Total: 12.1k
Bonus from bondings 285%: 34,485 TOTAL stats.
Total gear cost after the enchant price collapse: 22.78 million AD, not counting the R8 enchants and bondings.
Now, if we divide that 22.78 million AD by 36k AD that you can refine per day, you get 619. 619 days of grind you'd have to do to get that gear - so it's some top tier stuff, so people are usually seeing even less gains.
Compare that, very expensive and rare stuff that gives total less than 35k stats to power share that gives an upwards of 100k stats just by being there... you get something that's not okay. A nerf has been done in the wrong place. Change power share to a percentage based buff and you'll see much better results. Every power-share based DC with lower gear could actually join runs and be useful because it's not so power-dependent. This promotes people helping lower geared DCs get up higher, therefore promoting underplayed support roles, exactly what you're trying to do with the other updates.
The solution to all of this is reverting bondings and changing the power share. I do agree, we're too powerful for TNG - 25 minute runs aren't supposed to happen. My 1st preview run with my guildmates took over an hour and a half, mostly because of mechanics, but we had to get used to the steep learning curve the dungeon has with its bosses - and it's an EXTREMELY fun dungeon - it's literally the most fun I've had in it, and with this massive nerf, it will be exhausting and not fun, sadly. That's what I fear - exhaustion from all the recent changes that are *forcing* us to change. Starting with the armpen min-maxing, the key change, now the bondings and dungeons as well - it's getting tiresome.
people keep blaming the bondings but here: bumping just because I think this got lost. it's not the bondings. it's the buffs on the bondings and pets.
the bondings aren't broken. the game is built around tough game play. I haven't been in tong yet but I've heard the groans. my personal experience in chult does show it is easier to survive with the bondings. yes you can survive if you are constantly twitchy. I'm not even talking about battles you choose to be in. I'm just talking about getting from freaking point a to point b. being able to switch to chat for a moment to say hey hey.. my experience says you can stop for a moment if you have enuff stats and do a thing or two and not end up back at the campfire. that's not comfortable daily activity. you want to be able to stop for a minute here or there. it is NOT a dungeon.
and those stats they are taking away they aren't even serious about taking away. for a mere 65 million they can be yours again.
as has been said over and over again that will just widen the gap between haves and have nots. not unite the player base. the elitism is going to grow. power creep is definitely better than elite creep. and I don't even think the bondings are responsible for it.
or if they were responsible, it was responsible for the creep of two years ago. now it's moved on and is a massive buff debuff creep.
the experience between the elite parties and the pug parties that the devs are pushing are LIGHT YEARS APART. I pug regularly for fun. I have always pugged regularly for fun. every now and again you might get a buffer or two in a party. for the most part you dont or they are reallllly new to the game and are not doing it at all right. those runs rely on you having the best personal stats you can have to pull to the finish.
The video is in response to a player that said he can't test the reduced power bondings on Preview because he dies every few seconds in the jungles of Chult without the original bonding stats.
The point is that a toon should not revolve around a single item of gear, and that a well-rounded toon can do just fine in Chult without bondings, indeed without R12 offense/defense enchants. If character power comes from a single gear item rather than layers of abilities and player skill, it devolves to an arcade shoot'em. I don't want Neverwinter to be that.
We live in a climate where people that express an opinion you don't share denigrated (just watch the news for plenty of examples). Rather than calling people that we disagree trolls or whatnot, let's try and understand their point of view.
It's great, but what you want is irrelevant when the Devs positioned an Item to have the best value/return, and where warned about it. Again, like I've said in that post, one player can do, is not an indicator of an average expiriance.
They needed to correct bonding to allow the game to grow over the next 5+ years. It also the reason why R7/R8/R9 duplicate enchantments & runes are no longer required (which many have been asking for 1-2 years) since they originally went away with R10-R12 when SMOP's were first introduced.
Note a R7 Bonding also starts at 30% augmentation not 20%; yet the augmentation growth is more stable and consistent similar to how power growth.
Still a R14 Bonding represents a greater than 4 to 1 Benefit over a R14 Eldritch. A R14 Bonding will give +1040 to either Offense or Defense but also a 65% Augmentation boost. A R14 Eldritch will provide 25% and only if loaded into a companions 0-3 defensive slots. That's 4x greater benefit before you factor in that bonding gives not only benefits the companion who have 3 to 4 attack powers, but still passes those same benefits along to the player at a far greater rate.
The Augment has no attack powers to trigger the bonding augment boost; but at least now with Eldritch R14 being expanded up to 25% augments are a viable option with this and other Runes. Also depending on a players Class, Feat Choices, or their Companion some (not all) might prefer pairing 2 Bonding Stones with another Rune.
For example: You may wish to slot an Empowered to give your Companion greater hit points. Now it's not just a one sized fit's all solution there are finally options to explore based on your Class/Feat Choices/Companion or overall build.
I have been seriously exploring the possible use of an augment based on these changes and I am actually disappointed. The amount they offer is still not good enough when you bear in mind:
* limited number of augments & functionality * limited gear slot types to maximise effectiveness - currently rings are the go-to choice as most decent cloaks, belts etc are artifacts - which cannot be slotted on companions. * no attack powers with buffing/debuffing capability * no power sharing feedback
People run companions with bondings because they bring a multi-layer benefit and there are a wide selection to choose from. If you want to bring augments to the same level then you need to address these issues.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Devs and Mods stated several times that you have some goals. Make all the ruins in line and to cut down the power creep and try to make augments relative again.
The problem that we are trying to identify is WHY this particular way of solving the problem was chosen . Let me be clear Its not about he ability to do content with old bonding or new one. Short answer, WE CAN!
What we want to understand is this.
Point 1
Devs are saying the phrase "Power creep" which to my understanding it means, players managed to gain more power (not the stat) than they need or was designed and therefore, trivialize the content. If you ask all the people at the mid / higher end, we will agree. So we established the problem is real for a portion of the game and the player base.
Now that we know the problem we need to figure the solution. Natural to come to mind obviously, is to lower the power (damage) a party can deal and to do that, we need to look as to, where is the main source of the problem because the roots go deep (buff / debuff / powershare / bonding etc) . So where is this extra damage Really coming from. Its time to be honest here, it's based on some design flaws.
1st You allow the power not to have diminishing returns (not judging if its right or wrong just stating a fact) 2nd You allow the powershare to give its benefits X4 extra times through the companion 3rd You set Bonding stones too high as a % since mod 6 (maybe) 4th Buffs having multiplicative nature between them (each skill and from each class multiply with each other) so when we stack buff classes, the numbers increase exponentially
Now that we know the sources we need to see which is the major one, in order of effect and also keeping in mind the mid range and lower range groups. For that reason, power not having diminishing returns can stay since we can just eliminate the getting the power from other sources easier. Buffs having multiplicative nature is helpful in all groups (low end, mid end , high end) because those are player / class based and can develop play style and synergy / strategy with other classes. So we are left with two.
Since devs don't want to clarify even tho they have been asked several times I can assume based on another point, the following. The powershare based on a DC share %, can go max to 58.6% its not exactly right as to my understanding the AA will give a portion of MY base power and not the DC, but most of times me and a dc will have similar amount of base power so we can assume its same. Now for rounding numbers lets assume average DC has 40k base. That means the share should be 40k X 58.6% = 23,4 k power. with 50k power it would be 29.3k This fact, makes me believe that the actual numbers we can see (anything from 60k to 100k per powershare) were not meant to to be given. My apologies if it was designed otherwise but either way its over performing.
And last we have the bonding stones which is stated few hundred times gives about 30k extra stat points.
Based on logic we will try to fix the problem by eliminating or adjusting the major source of power creep. Which is? 1. bonding stone now (on new mod) offering almost half the stat points (17842) so a loss of 13k points. Even less if we calculate that we will also have r14 on our gears so the neat loss will be from 2300 points to 945 points depending on what gears you use on companion. 2. Powesharing through companion using bonding that can give anything from +35k extra stat points to all the way to 210k stat points when you stack classes. I can show you screenshots if need be, with a dps being able to go at MAX 315k power with average being at 190k-250k power.
Which of the 2 will make sense to examine correct and/or adjust , using logic and within reason ?
Lets put it another way. Even if you let the current % on bonding stones and upgrade them to R14 but limit or remove the power share to go through bonding we will still lose a great junk of the power creep: Lets Compare
Companion now with r12 and 285% 7017 power, 3451 critical, 1130 armor pen, 700 defense. X 285% = the bonding will add 15.050 stat points Companion with r14 and 285%. since gears are same and we use 9 enchants we will add 6X 300 for enchants and 3X350 for bonding added stats so we will have 1800+1050 X 285%= 8122 more points. THAT'S IT!!
Now lets look at power share even with 195% A dc will gain about 2k extra power when they will go for r14. The companion doesn't matter, so we will have 42k DC (average since we calculated the 1st time with a 40 k DC) giving to the companion ONLY, which now has with R14 9000 power ( it has more but round numbers)
42k X 25% = 10k power from DCs power and AA will be calculated based on companion power, so 33% of 9k =3k power (rounded) so 13k power X 195% = 38.350 TOTAL STAT POINTS. What if we add pally powershare to companion? What if we add DO weapons of light? Just to make something clear, the companion get power and the bondings then add 195% more so its combined the companion gained power 13k and 13k x 195%. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Lets sum up: 8122 points with bonding as is at 285% with r14s VS 38.350 points with bonding at 195% and powershare as is.Or 472% more points from ONLY 1 powershare source to the companion. Imagine with 3 :P
No need to further explain based on how obvious this is.
Point 2 Bringing in line the other ruins and/or augments. Complex subject but really easy to see where the problem is.
You wanted to tone down the bonding % as you felt its overpowered compared to others... Agreed. What did you achieve with that? Nothing. Its still better that any other ruin even with others giving more points. How much better? 195% exactly. The amount of stat share it offers. Now you kept saying on the last Stream that is better to tone down one and not raise the others.. I agree, but this is hardly enough and became pointless now.
Any logical player will go for the solution that offers the most. They will reconsider ONLY if given choices offer similar benefits with different stat allocations, to create variety. So unless the other enchants offer the same share % of stats, as bondings do, but different stats (crit, armor pen etc), there is no way that anyone will justify losing 195% more stats from 3 gears and 9 enchants. Would you?
Now here is the catch. Powershare to the companions (again). Neither augment nor other ruins allow the powershare to go through. So you ask the player base reconsider to switch to either augment and/or other ruins and lose 195% of own stats and 38k stats from powershare pr source more or less. How one would think this, as a possibility is beyond me.
On top augments don't offer at the current point any support for mount bonuses that trigger by using companions. Even more stat loss.
Point 3 (or 2 and a half) When we use the term Power Creep as I mentioned at start it means we have excessive damage for a number of reasons, so we try to tone it down.
Making enchants go from r12 to r14 and offer +300 stats, how is that tone down?
Making wep enchants offer more damage and more utility like debuffs, how is that tone down?
Making artifacts such as this that can deal from 50% they state for up to a max 1500% boost since it multiply with both buffs and debuffs.How is that a tone down?
We can deduct a few reasons as to why this is happening and most because of one last point. With full r14s we will be the same stat wise as we are now (less than 1% difference) so the solution in 2-3 moths will have zero effects but a HUGE cost to the player base.
Now I learned in life and as a software and network engineer myself never to be absolute. As I was reading your patch notes I saw that you were planing to adjust the buffs too. So Its wise to wait and see the entire picture but you cant blame us on that. If anything, I think you should have presented, all the facts about the power creep including buff changes (if any) since they affect the very core of power creep itself.
I hope you can reconsider and please remember that as much as you do, we the players, specially the ones we saw all 12 modules and went though several changes and devs, care about this game and its players too.
This is the spirit I made this post, and i hope it will be read as such.
Voodoo
Post edited by oria1 on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
The video is in response to a player that said he can't test the reduced power bondings on Preview because he dies every few seconds in the jungles of Chult without the original bonding stats.
The point is that a toon should not revolve around a single item of gear, and that a well-rounded toon can do just fine in Chult without bondings, indeed without R12 offense/defense enchants. If character power comes from a single gear item rather than layers of abilities and player skill, it devolves to an arcade shoot'em. I don't want Neverwinter to be that.
We live in a climate where people that express an opinion you don't share denigrated (just watch the news for plenty of examples). Rather than calling people that we disagree trolls or whatnot, let's try and understand their point of view.
It's great, but what you want is irrelevant when the Devs positioned an Item to have the best value/return, and where warned about it. Again, like I've said in that post, one player can do, is not an indicator of an average expiriance.
They needed to correct bonding to allow the game to grow over the next 5+ years. It also the reason why R7/R8/R9 duplicate enchantments & runes are no longer required (which many have been asking for 1-2 years) since they originally went away with R10-R12 when SMOP's were first introduced.
Note a R7 Bonding also starts at 30% augmentation not 20%; yet the augmentation growth is more stable and consistent similar to how power growth.
Still a R14 Bonding represents a greater than 4 to 1 Benefit over a R14 Eldritch. A R14 Bonding will give +1040 to either Offense or Defense but also a 65% Augmentation boost. A R14 Eldritch will provide 25% and only if loaded into a companions 0-3 defensive slots. That's 4x greater benefit before you factor in that bonding gives not only benefits the companion who have 3 to 4 attack powers, but still passes those same benefits along to the player at a far greater rate.
The Augment has no attack powers to trigger the bonding augment boost; but at least now with Eldritch R14 being expanded up to 25% augments are a viable option with this and other Runes. Also depending on a players Class, Feat Choices, or their Companion some (not all) might prefer pairing 2 Bonding Stones with another Rune.
For example: You may wish to slot an Empowered to give your Companion greater hit points. Now it's not just a one sized fit's all solution there are finally options to explore based on your Class/Feat Choices/Companion or overall build.
Grow to the next 5+ years? You are stat capped now. This change had nothing to do with it. You want to add room to grow you change the stat functions to diminishing returns. You don't devalue player earned items. You want to re-balance, sure, you don't do it after two years, and if you do, then a value solution needed.
Please don't go into the comparison, your anti-bonding position is well known.
1. Why I care about Eldritch ? I don't compare bondings to anything at any point in my posts. 2. Why I care about companion damage ? It's bellow 1% of my total damage. 3. "still passes those same benefits along to the player at a far greater rate" Simply false. Augment is persistent, 100% uptime, you can't have higher rate than that. 4. Why would I pair 2 bondings with another rune ? For that to happen I need that the net stat yield will be higher than the percent of the remaining gear. They just added r14 with crapton of 3 stats so exactly this wont happen. 5. The whole benefit of augments is that they don't have attack powers that need to be triggered. 6. Why I need for my companion to have more HP ?
There are valid arguments for bondings change, some where brought in posts, for example single item prioritization creates balance issue and so on. Those are not one of those valid arguments.
Bonding or not bonding, the r7->12 path change cost me all my work over years now. Similar to when GMOP price changed. Yes the game is dynamic and things go obsolete, but there is a limit of how many times I person can take this "Oh you have high rank enchants that took you years to make, lets cut their value in one single dev post"
Devalueing should happen, it should be natural and subtle over time. If there is a mechanic change it should retain value at least to some point, because it's sudden. But lets see what are the real costs.
Reduced bondings and added a 50mil (rought estimate) AD path to upgrade back to the same stats... thanks...
The video is in response to a player that said he can't test the reduced power bondings on Preview because he dies every few seconds in the jungles of Chult without the original bonding stats.
The point is that a toon should not revolve around a single item of gear, and that a well-rounded toon can do just fine in Chult without bondings, indeed without R12 offense/defense enchants. If character power comes from a single gear item rather than layers of abilities and player skill, it devolves to an arcade shoot'em. I don't want Neverwinter to be that.
We live in a climate where people that express an opinion you don't share denigrated (just watch the news for plenty of examples). Rather than calling people that we disagree trolls or whatnot, let's try and understand their point of view.
It's great, but what you want is irrelevant when the Devs positioned an Item to have the best value/return, and where warned about it. Again, like I've said in that post, one player can do, is not an indicator of an average expiriance.
They needed to correct bonding to allow the game to grow over the next 5+ years. It also the reason why R7/R8/R9 duplicate enchantments & runes are no longer required (which many have been asking for 1-2 years) since they originally went away with R10-R12 when SMOP's were first introduced.
Note a R7 Bonding also starts at 30% augmentation not 20%; yet the augmentation growth is more stable and consistent similar to how power growth.
Still a R14 Bonding represents a greater than 4 to 1 Benefit over a R14 Eldritch. A R14 Bonding will give +1040 to either Offense or Defense but also a 65% Augmentation boost. A R14 Eldritch will provide 25% and only if loaded into a companions 0-3 defensive slots. That's 4x greater benefit before you factor in that bonding gives not only benefits the companion who have 3 to 4 attack powers, but still passes those same benefits along to the player at a far greater rate.
The Augment has no attack powers to trigger the bonding augment boost; but at least now with Eldritch R14 being expanded up to 25% augments are a viable option with this and other Runes. Also depending on a players Class, Feat Choices, or their Companion some (not all) might prefer pairing 2 Bonding Stones with another Rune.
For example: You may wish to slot an Empowered to give your Companion greater hit points. Now it's not just a one sized fit's all solution there are finally options to explore based on your Class/Feat Choices/Companion or overall build.
I have been seriously exploring the possible use of an augment based on these changes and I am actually disappointed. The amount they offer is still not good enough when you bear in mind:
* limited number of augments & functionality * limited gear slot types to maximise effectiveness - currently rings are the go-to choice as most decent cloaks, belts etc are artifacts - which cannot be slotted on companions. * no attack powers with buffing/debuffing capability * no power sharing feedback
People run companions with bondings because they bring a multi-layer benefit and there are a wide selection to choose from. If you want to bring augments to the same level then you need to address these issues.
They do not intend to make Augments superior to other companions but make them viable options for some to consider depending upon their Class / Feat Choices / Companion / Build. A Legendary Augment with 2 defensive Runestone Slots which is the most all but a 'very limited' few have could provide up to 165% augmentation with no attack powers.
They did not want to make the Augment Superior to other companions as one of the DEV's addressed that in the Technical Details thread.
Leave the bondings alone. it is clear this isnt about game equality and all about selling more coal wards. no one asked for this and no one wants this. listen to your player base. we are speaking quite clearly.
> @strathkin said: > > @strathkin said: > > > I think many people NEED to get on PREVIEW and see where the DPS is on DRAGON verses PREVIEW on the same DUNGEON especially as they 'rework' the recently announced changes to Bondings. > > > > > > I think that will have many see the changes aren't as severe as they feared. Keeping the uptime at almost 100% depending on your companion was a major reversal for the players. > > > > it's still a back step and a nerf, and just in case you didn't realise IT'S POWER SHARE THAT'S THE PROBLEM! 35k power from my bondings 150k from just one dc and bondings are the problem? my god some people just roll over > > Well no one is disagreeing they 'may' be a few things to possibly correct with powershare but again they are caused by bondings. My Pally gives 25% of his power if you stay within 30-40' of him for 6s before getting the buff; but he also sacrifices some of his own DPS to earn that buff. You or your companion also loose the buff the second they leave that 30-40' depending on how big his Aura is. > > So while he has between 25k in power base with peaks from damage (as protection) up to 45k if staying within close proximity you gain 6000 - 11,250 at best but that buff can effect players and companions. Powershare works as originally designed. Yet bonding currently is 9x the benefit to other Runes. So today if the companion gets the buff then today passes 3x to the player that extend almost another 33750 more along to the player. > > I doubt bondings will change much more than they are currently announced as they are still > 4x more powerful than every other Rune - remember the player & companion both attacking with enchantments & runes that benefit them both as well. > > Lets hope for your sake give you get your WISH and limit powershare to only players; but don't complain if you loose out on the 33750 (powershare) your gives or effectively doubles his power either. > > Then you can be happier.
lol not even close, you think your the only one in the team that power shares? with bondings i hit 78k power self buffed, in a team with one op and one dc I've seen close to 300k power, it's power share double dipping thats the problem, stop bondings from double dipping and you stop all this it's that simple, your power share only works when I'm in a group with you what about when I'm playing solo? why should my stats suffer being you want to keep your double dipping power share? by the way double dipping isn't wai
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
PPS - Power transfer is what gives bondings their true power. Watch for that to be addressed at some point. Try to be civil about it, and try to trust that the system designers will rebalance the game as appropriate.
It takes the develpers a while to get around to things. As you noted, they are addressing bondings almost 2 years later....
I really don't trust things will be rebalanced in any timely way, if at all.
Remember all those dungeons from Mod 6 that were coming back soon???
The fact is, 95% on R12 or R14 bondings will just work fine over the long run. Why? Because there's no need to care about it? Just prevent power share from affecting comps and you'll have something that works well, and doesn't completely break the game in a run with 2x DC or OP. Do I have to remind you of this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbg_wAfL4Qc
We all saw what ONE DC can do thanks to @oria1 but that's what more does. OVER 4 BILLION POWER (32 bit limit sets the positive limit at about 2.1 billion, then it goes into the negative all the way back to zero). Now imagine that with the new enchantments and a single DPS class. OHKOing tiamat doesn't sound nice? All possible because of power share. Even alone, power share is overpowered.
Usually Mods are very fair, i really mean it. But seriously Ambisinister, this time it's like you have something to gain by going against us...
Sometimes you say "power creep IS the problem" Sometimes, you say " bondings being the only choice is the problem...
So wich is it ? Power creep or bonding only viable runes ? And what i really don't like is that you make us look like spoiled brats whose toys were taken, that's not fair...
Our time and money mean something and it was a lot of time and money, A LOT !
Cryptic propose ZERO compensation AT ALL not even something like Losmoth gate... So i am asking you : Where is the compensation ? And you have nothing to say about that...
To be fair, you should say " Bondings are a problem but in the mean time it was the fault of the devs for creating it and letting it live for so long so there must be corrrection FROM THE DEVS NOT PLAYERS. The solution should NOT be "thanks for spending all this money and time in bondings, now fill our pockets again to r14""
Let's face the truth, end game players don't spend enought, it's to break the game so people invest more money in the game, that is the only truth behind these nerfs.
what's sad is there are still ways to do this and allow for bondings to stay the same and still have enchants go to 14. cap the buffs where ever they need to be and don't have bondings go any higher with the percentages. add some other bonus for 13 and 14 that aren't stat related. let the other enchants go higher. sure they'll be able to be used on the bondings but it will still be in the realm of reasonable unlike the op multiple hitting buff loops going on.
that way we would not be trivializing content, we'd still be seeing progress.. and we would not be seeing the regression that has everyone in a fury.
seriously. people will leave over this. the people who do not leave will be extra tight with the wallets. if you give your player base (customers) what they want.. they'll give you moneies... if you do not give them what they want.. they don't. they go elsewhere.
if things are tight offer a real money subscription with some sort of good bonus. make it not available thru the zen store. make it clear we're supporting the game and keeping silly decisions from being made. I'd pay it. I think most of us would. we're not here because we hate this game. but we do hate the decisions that are being made on our behalf.
Even according to the mods' and devs' reasoning, there's no reason to nerf bondings. If it's power creep, nerf power share. If it's bondings being the only viable, this changes nothing. No one will ever use augment, because it doesn't get power share. So either take away power share, and fix all your issues in one fell swoop, or take away the good bondings and then, when you realize that it's too late, think about what you could have done to prevent the mass exodus. I'll make another video addressing all the issues these new updates have - cover all of it in one video, tho I'll shorten it as to not have problems with uploading a 5GB file like last time.
When i see people saying "we cant increase the other ruins but we need to tone bonding" (which has SOME validity) but even with toning down bonding is better by a lot and then complain why don't you pick others...
It makes me think that we live in a house that we have have 5 Yogo cars and 1 BMW... and you ask why are we taking the BMW.
As long as those ruins aren't treated somehow equally without tricks like 50% on - 50% off on bonding don't expect much other outcome. and also make the augments proc companion based mount bonuses. IF you even even want to make them have some use.
And if you allow powershare through bonding... good luck !!
It always felt wrong to me, and still does, that putting our best gear and enchantments on our summoned companion gives more stats then putting it on our char. Imo the addition of bonding runestones to the game was a mistake. The value of non-augument companions should come from what they do, not from stats they pass along.
> @fogcrow said: > It always felt wrong to me, and still does, that putting our best gear and enchantments on our summoned companion gives more stats then putting it on our char. Imo the addition of bonding runestones to the game was a mistake. The value of non-augument companions should come from what they do, not from stats they pass along.
If that was true then no one would ever use anything but the sellsword/rebel merc/con artist for the debuff. The current system works perfectly.
Also, compressing new vid. It's much longer but it's about the issues that will come with the new updates in general. I'd LOVE to get into contact with one of the developers to argue about this.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited September 2017
Bonding has 30 duration seconds on preview while tooltip says is 15 seconds. In top of that it refreshes .( sorry i cant upload a video low upload)>
Comments
They made a mistake in how the changes were introduced. Many players did build around bonding because it gave by far the best return on investment. They should have offered an exchange mechanism for players that wish they had made a similar investment in something else after the change in meta (since they let the brokenness go on for so long).
Many players made mistakes in their reaction. Some assumed a nefarious purpose. Some attacked the devs personally (that's never OK!) Some assumed that something posted in an Official Feedback Thread is written in stone. Some assumed the game will become unplayable by all but some privileged 1%.
At least in the United States, we live in a world where "the other side" is treated as if it's some great evil out to get us. It's an incredible failure when two sides can't have a civil discussion about a point of disagreement and come to a compromise that's reasonable for all.
I'm here as a player to stand up for what I think is right. I will challenge statements that I find factually false. By all means, challenge my statements that you find factually false. I'll respect you for it if you bring facts and civility to the discussion. Don't throw labels on me or anyone else that disagrees with your perspective. That's just wrong.
PS - The skill involved in the R6 video is "keep moving, dodge attack animations, don't stand in red." Nothing more.
PPS - Power transfer is what gives bondings their true power. Watch for that to be addressed at some point. Try to be civil about it, and try to trust that the system designers will rebalance the game as appropriate.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Yes, as I've said, I can do it too, for now, If I was 10 years older I probably wouldn't be able to, or if didn't have thousands of hours playing games. It's not something new, or because of bondings, I've always of the opinion that dailies must be casual friendly and easier. And the dungeons (group content in general) harder (requiring team work, etc..).
But this is moot, again, the dungeon is a DPS check, you can be the best dodger, good enough to go naked, and you will fail, because there is a timer, in first it's the Temp HP, and the last it's the souls.
That's not a rhetorical question. It's helpful in striking a new balance to see player feedback about how the changes affect the things they do in the game. Is there something you used to win that now you can't? Is something taking 1% longer, 10%, twice as long? The developers acknowledged in their initial post a need to rebalance content along with the bonding change. Specific player feedback helps to strike a good balance.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
I think after we agree that they made the mistake with dragging the bondings for so long and making the change to begin with. They made the same thing with lostmauth. They made the same thing with classes, and incapable of balancing (for various reasons, like lack of time or priority or what not) and there is a class that's the HAMSTER child that is less wanted for 12 mods in PvE then why you ask me to trust them ?
We warned repeatedly about thing, we warn now. And everyone categorically get all chalked off as doomsayers. Because "the dev knows best" and "trust the devs"
I don't accept blind faith, not here, not anywhere. And it goes both ways, I will not call the devs idiots, or what not, but I will also not accept that they are some geniuses that always have the best solution. Everyone are the same human for better or worse. And trust is earned, and suggestions are judged by their merit, and not by the name attached on the proposal.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Turtle in FBI, second Boss in SP, and last boss in T9G can perma kill companions by throwing them into the water / off the platform.
FYI, if this happens now on T9G for the dps, it's most likely a wipe, and the group restarts.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Lesson of the day, if you are going to kick a can down the road the 2 years, stop fixing what ain't broken (pointing my finger to the Queue/Bonus AD changes) and focus what limited resources you do have on improving what is. Otherwise don't be upset if we take for granted what you refused to fix.
We need to do decent buffs within the normal range of other support classes. A removal of power share via companion will reduce Pally power buffing by 75%.
I would suggest either changing Aura Gifts to a flat DPS boost or up-scaling the damage from Aura of Courage.
Aura Gifts to a flat DPS is a more predictable/controllable method. Currently, and unlike the DC, GF & MoF CW, an OP's buffs are linked to their gear (power & HP stats) meaning that only a high level OP can buff well. As higher stat gear comes out, pally buffing increases, so a change to a flat buff neutralises this permanently.
AoC is probably simpler - as long as one bug with AoC is addressed: currently, more than one point in AoC only increases Pally damage - it does not increase that done by others in the party.
After fixing the AoC bug it would be easy enough to test & tweak such a small change.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Note a R7 Bonding also starts at 30% augmentation not 20%; yet the augmentation growth is more stable and consistent similar to how power growth.
Still a R14 Bonding represents a greater than 4 to 1 Benefit over a R14 Eldritch. A R14 Bonding will give +1040 to either Offense or Defense but also a 65% Augmentation boost. A R14 Eldritch will provide 25% and only if loaded into a companions 0-3 defensive slots. That's 4x greater benefit before you factor in that bonding gives not only benefits the companion who have 3 to 4 attack powers, but still passes those same benefits along to the player at a far greater rate.
The Augment has no attack powers to trigger the bonding augment boost; but at least now with Eldritch R14 being expanded up to 25% augments are a viable option with this and other Runes. Also depending on a players Class, Feat Choices, or their Companion some (not all) might prefer pairing 2 Bonding Stones with another Rune.
For example:
You may wish to slot an Empowered to give your Companion greater hit points. Now it's not just a one sized fit's all solution there are finally options to explore based on your Class/Feat Choices/Companion or overall build.
the bondings aren't broken. the game is built around tough game play. I haven't been in tong yet but I've heard the groans. my personal experience in chult does show it is easier to survive with the bondings. yes you can survive if you are constantly twitchy. I'm not even talking about battles you choose to be in. I'm just talking about getting from freaking point a to point b. being able to switch to chat for a moment to say hey hey.. my experience says you can stop for a moment if you have enuff stats and do a thing or two and not end up back at the campfire. that's not comfortable daily activity. you want to be able to stop for a minute here or there. it is NOT a dungeon.
and those stats they are taking away they aren't even serious about taking away. for a mere 65 million they can be yours again.
as has been said over and over again that will just widen the gap between haves and have nots. not unite the player base. the elitism is going to grow. power creep is definitely better than elite creep. and I don't even think the bondings are responsible for it.
or if they were responsible, it was responsible for the creep of two years ago. now it's moved on and is a massive buff debuff creep.
the experience between the elite parties and the pug parties that the devs are pushing are LIGHT YEARS APART. I pug regularly for fun. I have always pugged regularly for fun. every now and again you might get a buffer or two in a party. for the most part you dont or they are reallllly new to the game and are not doing it at all right. those runs rely on you having the best personal stats you can have to pull to the finish.
so many conflicting messages from the devs here.
* limited number of augments & functionality
* limited gear slot types to maximise effectiveness - currently rings are the go-to choice as most decent cloaks, belts etc are artifacts - which cannot be slotted on companions.
* no attack powers with buffing/debuffing capability
* no power sharing feedback
People run companions with bondings because they bring a multi-layer benefit and there are a wide selection to choose from. If you want to bring augments to the same level then you need to address these issues.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
The problem that we are trying to identify is WHY this particular way of solving the problem was chosen . Let me be clear
Its not about he ability to do content with old bonding or new one. Short answer, WE CAN!
What we want to understand is this.
Point 1
Devs are saying the phrase "Power creep" which to my understanding it means, players managed to gain more power (not the stat) than they need or was designed and therefore, trivialize the content. If you ask all the people at the mid / higher end, we will agree. So we established the problem is real for a portion of the game and the player base.
Now that we know the problem we need to figure the solution. Natural to come to mind obviously, is to lower the power (damage) a party can deal and to do that, we need to look as to, where is the main source of the problem because the roots go deep (buff / debuff / powershare / bonding etc) . So where is this extra damage Really coming from. Its time to be honest here, it's based on some design flaws.
1st You allow the power not to have diminishing returns (not judging if its right or wrong just stating a fact)
2nd You allow the powershare to give its benefits X4 extra times through the companion
3rd You set Bonding stones too high as a % since mod 6 (maybe)
4th Buffs having multiplicative nature between them (each skill and from each class multiply with each other) so when we stack buff classes, the numbers increase exponentially
Now that we know the sources we need to see which is the major one, in order of effect and also keeping in mind the mid range and lower range groups. For that reason, power not having diminishing returns can stay since we can just eliminate the getting the power from other sources easier. Buffs having multiplicative nature is helpful in all groups (low end, mid end , high end) because those are player / class based and can develop play style and synergy / strategy with other classes. So we are left with two.
Since devs don't want to clarify even tho they have been asked several times I can assume based on another point, the following. The powershare based on a DC share %, can go max to 58.6% its not exactly right as to my understanding the AA will give a portion of MY base power and not the DC, but most of times me and a dc will have similar amount of base power so we can assume its same. Now for rounding numbers lets assume average DC has 40k base. That means the share should be 40k X 58.6% = 23,4 k power. with 50k power it would be 29.3k This fact, makes me believe that the actual numbers we can see (anything from 60k to 100k per powershare) were not meant to to be given. My apologies if it was designed otherwise but either way its over performing.
And last we have the bonding stones which is stated few hundred times gives about 30k extra stat points.
Based on logic we will try to fix the problem by eliminating or adjusting the major source of power creep. Which is?
1. bonding stone now (on new mod) offering almost half the stat points (17842) so a loss of 13k points. Even less if we calculate that we will also have r14 on our gears so the neat loss will be from 2300 points to 945 points depending on what gears you use on companion.
2. Powesharing through companion using bonding that can give anything from +35k extra stat points to all the way to 210k stat points when you stack classes. I can show you screenshots if need be, with a dps being able to go at MAX 315k power with average being at 190k-250k power.
Which of the 2 will make sense to examine correct and/or adjust , using logic and within reason ?
Lets put it another way. Even if you let the current % on bonding stones and upgrade them to R14 but limit or remove the power share to go through bonding we will still lose a great junk of the power creep: Lets Compare
Companion now with r12 and 285%
7017 power, 3451 critical, 1130 armor pen, 700 defense. X 285% = the bonding will add 15.050 stat points
Companion with r14 and 285%. since gears are same and we use 9 enchants we will add 6X 300 for enchants and 3X350 for bonding added stats so we will have 1800+1050 X 285%= 8122 more points. THAT'S IT!!
Now lets look at power share even with 195%
A dc will gain about 2k extra power when they will go for r14. The companion doesn't matter, so we will have 42k DC (average since we calculated the 1st time with a 40 k DC) giving to the companion ONLY, which now has with R14 9000 power ( it has more but round numbers)
42k X 25% = 10k power from DCs power and AA will be calculated based on companion power, so 33% of 9k =3k power (rounded) so 13k power X 195% = 38.350 TOTAL STAT POINTS. What if we add pally powershare to companion? What if we add DO weapons of light? Just to make something clear, the companion get power and the bondings then add 195% more so its combined the companion gained power 13k and 13k x 195%. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Lets sum up: 8122 points with bonding as is at 285% with r14s VS 38.350 points with bonding at 195% and powershare as is.Or 472% more points from ONLY 1 powershare source to the companion. Imagine with 3 :P
No need to further explain based on how obvious this is.
Point 2
Bringing in line the other ruins and/or augments. Complex subject but really easy to see where the problem is.
You wanted to tone down the bonding % as you felt its overpowered compared to others... Agreed. What did you achieve with that? Nothing.
Its still better that any other ruin even with others giving more points. How much better? 195% exactly. The amount of stat share it offers. Now you kept saying on the last Stream that is better to tone down one and not raise the others.. I agree, but this is hardly enough and became pointless now.
Any logical player will go for the solution that offers the most. They will reconsider ONLY if given choices offer similar benefits with different stat allocations, to create variety. So unless the other enchants offer the same share % of stats, as bondings do, but different stats (crit, armor pen etc), there is no way that anyone will justify losing 195% more stats from 3 gears and 9 enchants. Would you?
Now here is the catch. Powershare to the companions (again).
Neither augment nor other ruins allow the powershare to go through. So you ask the player base reconsider to switch to either augment and/or other ruins and lose 195% of own stats and 38k stats from powershare pr source more or less. How one would think this, as a possibility is beyond me.
On top augments don't offer at the current point any support for mount bonuses that trigger by using companions. Even more stat loss.
Point 3 (or 2 and a half)
When we use the term Power Creep as I mentioned at start it means we have excessive damage for a number of reasons, so we try to tone it down.
Making enchants go from r12 to r14 and offer +300 stats, how is that tone down?
Making wep enchants offer more damage and more utility like debuffs, how is that tone down?
Making artifacts such as this that can deal from 50% they state for up to a max 1500% boost since it multiply with both buffs and debuffs.How is that a tone down?
We can deduct a few reasons as to why this is happening and most because of one last point. With full r14s we will be the same stat wise as we are now (less than 1% difference) so the solution in 2-3 moths will have zero effects but a HUGE cost to the player base.
Now I learned in life and as a software and network engineer myself never to be absolute. As I was reading your patch notes I saw that you were planing to adjust the buffs too. So Its wise to wait and see the entire picture but you cant blame us on that. If anything, I think you should have presented, all the facts about the power creep including buff changes (if any) since they affect the very core of power creep itself.
I hope you can reconsider and please remember that as much as you do, we the players, specially the ones we saw all 12 modules and went though several changes and devs, care about this game and its players too.
This is the spirit I made this post, and i hope it will be read as such.
Voodoo
You don't devalue player earned items. You want to re-balance, sure, you don't do it after two years, and if you do, then a value solution needed.
Please don't go into the comparison, your anti-bonding position is well known.
1. Why I care about Eldritch ? I don't compare bondings to anything at any point in my posts.
2. Why I care about companion damage ? It's bellow 1% of my total damage.
3. "still passes those same benefits along to the player at a far greater rate" Simply false. Augment is persistent, 100% uptime, you can't have higher rate than that.
4. Why would I pair 2 bondings with another rune ? For that to happen I need that the net stat yield will be higher than the percent of the remaining gear. They just added r14 with crapton of 3 stats so exactly this wont happen.
5. The whole benefit of augments is that they don't have attack powers that need to be triggered.
6. Why I need for my companion to have more HP ?
There are valid arguments for bondings change, some where brought in posts, for example single item prioritization creates balance issue and so on.
Those are not one of those valid arguments.
Bonding or not bonding, the r7->12 path change cost me all my work over years now. Similar to when GMOP price changed. Yes the game is dynamic and things go obsolete, but there is a limit of how many times I person can take this "Oh you have high rank enchants that took you years to make, lets cut their value in one single dev post"
Devalueing should happen, it should be natural and subtle over time. If there is a mechanic change it should retain value at least to some point, because it's sudden. But lets see what are the real costs.
Reduced bondings and added a 50mil (rought estimate) AD path to upgrade back to the same stats... thanks...
They did not want to make the Augment Superior to other companions as one of the DEV's addressed that in the Technical Details thread.
> > @strathkin said:
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> > I think many people NEED to get on PREVIEW and see where the DPS is on DRAGON verses PREVIEW on the same DUNGEON especially as they 'rework' the recently announced changes to Bondings.
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> >
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> > I think that will have many see the changes aren't as severe as they feared. Keeping the uptime at almost 100% depending on your companion was a major reversal for the players.
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>
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> it's still a back step and a nerf, and just in case you didn't realise IT'S POWER SHARE THAT'S THE PROBLEM! 35k power from my bondings 150k from just one dc and bondings are the problem? my god some people just roll over
>
> Well no one is disagreeing they 'may' be a few things to possibly correct with powershare but again they are caused by bondings. My Pally gives 25% of his power if you stay within 30-40' of him for 6s before getting the buff; but he also sacrifices some of his own DPS to earn that buff. You or your companion also loose the buff the second they leave that 30-40' depending on how big his Aura is.
>
> So while he has between 25k in power base with peaks from damage (as protection) up to 45k if staying within close proximity you gain 6000 - 11,250 at best but that buff can effect players and companions. Powershare works as originally designed. Yet bonding currently is 9x the benefit to other Runes. So today if the companion gets the buff then today passes 3x to the player that extend almost another 33750 more along to the player.
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> I doubt bondings will change much more than they are currently announced as they are still > 4x more powerful than every other Rune - remember the player & companion both attacking with enchantments & runes that benefit them both as well.
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> Lets hope for your sake give you get your WISH and limit powershare to only players; but don't complain if you loose out on the 33750 (powershare) your gives or effectively doubles his power either.
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> Then you can be happier.
lol not even close, you think your the only one in the team that power shares? with bondings i hit 78k power self buffed, in a team with one op and one dc I've seen close to 300k power, it's power share double dipping thats the problem, stop bondings from double dipping and you stop all this it's that simple, your power share only works when I'm in a group with you what about when I'm playing solo? why should my stats suffer being you want to keep your double dipping power share? by the way double dipping isn't wai
I really don't trust things will be rebalanced in any timely way, if at all.
Remember all those dungeons from Mod 6 that were coming back soon???
Do I have to remind you of this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbg_wAfL4Qc
We all saw what ONE DC can do thanks to @oria1 but that's what more does. OVER 4 BILLION POWER (32 bit limit sets the positive limit at about 2.1 billion, then it goes into the negative all the way back to zero). Now imagine that with the new enchantments and a single DPS class. OHKOing tiamat doesn't sound nice? All possible because of power share.
Even alone, power share is overpowered.
But seriously Ambisinister, this time it's like you have something to gain by going against us...
Sometimes you say "power creep IS the problem"
Sometimes, you say " bondings being the only choice is the problem...
So wich is it ? Power creep or bonding only viable runes ?
And what i really don't like is that you make us look like spoiled brats whose toys were taken, that's not fair...
Our time and money mean something and it was a lot of time and money, A LOT !
Cryptic propose ZERO compensation AT ALL not even something like Losmoth gate...
So i am asking you : Where is the compensation ?
And you have nothing to say about that...
To be fair, you should say " Bondings are a problem but in the mean time it was the fault of the devs for creating it and letting it live for so long so there must be corrrection FROM THE DEVS NOT PLAYERS. The solution should NOT be "thanks for spending all this money and time in bondings, now fill our pockets again to r14""
Let's face the truth, end game players don't spend enought, it's to break the game so people invest more money in the game, that is the only truth behind these nerfs.
that way we would not be trivializing content, we'd still be seeing progress.. and we would not be seeing the regression that has everyone in a fury.
seriously. people will leave over this. the people who do not leave will be extra tight with the wallets. if you give your player base (customers) what they want.. they'll give you moneies... if you do not give them what they want.. they don't. they go elsewhere.
if things are tight offer a real money subscription with some sort of good bonus. make it not available thru the zen store. make it clear we're supporting the game and keeping silly decisions from being made. I'd pay it. I think most of us would. we're not here because we hate this game. but we do hate the decisions that are being made on our behalf.
please work with us. not against us. lol.
If it's power creep, nerf power share.
If it's bondings being the only viable, this changes nothing. No one will ever use augment, because it doesn't get power share.
So either take away power share, and fix all your issues in one fell swoop, or take away the good bondings and then, when you realize that it's too late, think about what you could have done to prevent the mass exodus. I'll make another video addressing all the issues these new updates have - cover all of it in one video, tho I'll shorten it as to not have problems with uploading a 5GB file like last time.
It makes me think that we live in a house that we have have 5 Yogo cars and 1 BMW... and you ask why are we taking the BMW.
As long as those ruins aren't treated somehow equally without tricks like 50% on - 50% off on bonding don't expect much other outcome. and also make the augments proc companion based mount bonuses. IF you even even want to make them have some use.
And if you allow powershare through bonding... good luck !!
> It always felt wrong to me, and still does, that putting our best gear and enchantments on our summoned companion gives more stats then putting it on our char. Imo the addition of bonding runestones to the game was a mistake. The value of non-augument companions should come from what they do, not from stats they pass along.
If that was true then no one would ever use anything but the sellsword/rebel merc/con artist for the debuff. The current system works perfectly.
Also, compressing new vid. It's much longer but it's about the issues that will come with the new updates in general. I'd LOVE to get into contact with one of the developers to argue about this.
Bonding has 30 duration seconds on preview while tooltip says is 15 seconds.
In top of that it refreshes .( sorry i cant upload a video low upload)>