Turtle in FBI, second Boss in SP, and last boss in T9G can perma kill companions by throwing them into the water / off the platform. FYI, if this happens now on T9G for the dps, it's most likely a wipe, and the group restarts.
Ah, I hadn't noticed. Thanks for clarifying that. I mostly run these days with my DO DC who uses an augment. Definitely bugs that need to be addressed.
They don't have to be bugs.
I am quite certain that a dev has even popped in to say that the chance of losing combat companions due to these mechanics is not a bug and you may want to choose your companion for those fights accordingly. At least at the turtle. No reason to expect different with other boss fights.
@tom#6998 So, what is the biggest factor now? The meta shifted from crits to power stacking for a reason. Power is plentiful in any high tier dungeon, the new enchants are literally dependent on power, and it's the only uncapped multiplier in the game. It's you who's ignoring the facts, mate. The fact is, something needs to be nerfed. If you nerf the players directly (aka bondings), they'll have issues where they shouldn't have. If you nerf power share, you will no longer see 18 minute TNGs. A top tier dungeon is literally destroyed by a group of relatively competent people.
No one is on a "jihad*" against DCs. You are literally the only person who sees it that way, and doesn't seem to notice that these changes would actually make new DCs much, MUCH better. There's no place for dumb arguments and bias here, mate.
So, basically, if I correctly understand everything about this update, we will have to upgrade our enchants up to 14th lvl, 13th in case of weapon and armor enchants, and we'll just receive similar to current stats, meanwhile spending millions of ads and thousands of Zen? If the bonding runestones are just getting nerf for ~30% and all othe stones gets equal buff to cover that loss? And where here is a new gameplay experience? The new way to upgrade?
That is just a small change, but we'll have to spent a lot of money to get to the exact place where we are now. If the bonds would have changed as promised first in that announcement it would be great for new gaming experience and the use of alternatives. But now it just looks as devs want to suck out our money and give us literally nothing, and everyone's happy with that? It all looks like the bonding nerf was a plan to concentrate the attention on irrelevant issue, while the main purpose was anything but giving us, the player community, anything interesting and conceptually new.
I hope, that everyone would understand and support my idea of banning this "bonding nerf", and to make dev's produce some actual new gaming experience!
You might say it become easier for new players to upgrade. In the mechanics - definitely yes, to r12 enchants. But this will provide them similar gaming experience as if they would have upgraded to r10 now. That is not the purpose of the game, but new playable areas, dungeons, raids, characters and pvp! I would have spent any amount if I would've been given away to increase my power, stats and extend my gameplay experience, but spending thousands to get nowhere? Is that how we should accept what devs through at us?
@tom#6998 So, what is the biggest factor now? The meta shifted from crits to power stacking for a reason. Power is plentiful in any high tier dungeon, the new enchants are literally dependent on power, and it's the only uncapped multiplier in the game. It's you who's ignoring the facts, mate. The fact is, something needs to be nerfed. If you nerf the players directly (aka bondings), they'll have issues where they shouldn't have. If you nerf power share, you will no longer see 18 minute TNGs. A top tier dungeon is literally destroyed by a group of relatively competent people.
No one is on a "jihad*" against DCs. You are literally the only person who sees it that way, and doesn't seem to notice that these changes would actually make new DCs much, MUCH better. There's no place for dumb arguments and bias here, mate.
%dmg buffs contribute alot more to dps then Powershare does. And the meta didnt shift from crits to Powerstacking its critstacking till 100% and then Power. If you feel like smth needs to be nerfed then ok... we have to agree to disagree then. I dont think 17-18 min Tong runs for the top groups are destroying the game. And with this nerf u will hurt the "average" group (which easily takes over 30-40min to finish) alot more then the high end groups.
And u might not be on war with DCs but from what oria is posting usually i cant help but see it this way.
Also im curious why would this make new DCs much better? Cause there will also be only 1 build left for DCs like its with GWFs now. Is it really the goal to narrow each class down so it has only 1 vaiable build?
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
I don't why we are creating a meta argument between ourselves over this DC thing. It's distracting for us who are terrible at math and don't use a DC xD
It's distracting for Devs too, since whatever disagreements we are having with ourselves are not going to be resolved by ourselves, it's probably best to just post our facts and let the Devs get their calculators out when they get back to work Monday.
@tom#6998 % buffs are always gonna be 40%. power based buffs won't. power based buffs increase your DPS on 2 sides. Power buffs your DPS directly, and buffs up your enchants if you're not using a crit sev enchant. And critstacking isn't meta anymore. Powerstacking is. I did a 22 min TNG run and I'm a 14.2k DPS, was only possible because of 2x DC and 1x paladin. I consistently had over 300k power.
It would help new ACDCs a lot because they wouldn't be so base-power dependent. If they don't have a LOT of power, they can't even scratch a DODC in terms of buffs, and if it was a % based buff, it would scale much better for both low and top tier players. If a low tier player gets 20k power in addition to his peak 30k, that's a LOT. If a top tier player gets 20k power in addition to his 70k, that's not nearly as good. That's why a percentage based buff would help - ACDCs could run with top tier players even if they're undergeared, and that would make them as good as DODCs in most situations and better in some, regardless of their item level.
Mind you, if you don't believe me that power contributes more, look for one of my recent calcs. Shows that power increases DPS by much more than a %-based buff.
> @tom#6998 said: > @tom#6998 > So, what is the biggest factor now? The meta shifted from crits to power stacking for a reason. Power is plentiful in any high tier dungeon, the new enchants are literally dependent on power, and it's the only uncapped multiplier in the game. > It's you who's ignoring the facts, mate. The fact is, something needs to be nerfed. If you nerf the players directly (aka bondings), they'll have issues where they shouldn't have. If you nerf power share, you will no longer see 18 minute TNGs. A top tier dungeon is literally destroyed by a group of relatively competent people. > > No one is on a "jihad*" against DCs. You are literally the only person who sees it that way, and doesn't seem to notice that these changes would actually make new DCs much, MUCH better. There's no place for dumb arguments and bias here, mate. > > %dmg buffs contribute alot more to dps then Powershare does. And the meta didnt shift from crits to Powerstacking its critstacking till 100% and then Power. If you feel like smth needs to be nerfed then ok... we have to agree to disagree then. I dont think 17-18 min Tong runs for the top groups are destroying the game. And with this nerf u will hurt the "average" group (which easily takes over 30-40min to finish) alot more then the high end groups. > > And u might not be on war with DCs but from what oria is posting usually i cant help but see it this way. > > Also im curious why would this make new DCs much better? Cause there will also be only 1 build left for DCs like its with GWFs now. Is it really the goal to narrow each class down so it has only 1 vaiable build?
let's put it this way I'm a bis gwf, my ibs hits for 1.5 mill when running solo with bondings proced and self buffs up
but when i run fbi with 2×dc and a pally my ibs hits for between 35 to 40 mill so if bondings were over powered why am i only hitting ibs for 1.5 mill when running solo yet with a power share group i can hit 30 times harder and hit for 35 mill upwards?
sharp alrdy posted facts... u were ignoring them...
u really think the Powershare is breaking the game? Power is 1 factor for dps and its by far not the biggest. And nerfing Powershare makes it an issue for Classes that use that no point in denying. Do u think that players are way to OP for the newest dungeon? If you have a very good group u can run it pretty fast but nothing i would call worthy of beeing nerfed. I dont see the need for nerfs here. And i doubt the devs do... they are selling us back what the take away now thats a decision based on Money.
If you want the bonding nerf to be reverted then suggest that but leave the other stuff.
As i see it u are just on your djihad against DCs again. Maybe u are just proposing this so u dont have to make fake arguments for your mof anymore?
Keep becoming personal, when arguments run out its the only resort.
I stated something specific and you keep answering with something general about the powershare and trying to make me look like I talk about the Dc or I hate DC while you cant stop mentioned it. If at the end they will do something to the AC it will be on you not me.
All that everyone can see is that while I never mentioned what a DC or the powershare as concept, can or cant do you keep bring it up and every time you will get the same answer. I'm not talking about the DC as a class.
When you overcome your obsession with the DC please read the following.
The whole story here, started because devs diagnosed a huge power creep in the game. Not all but a big number of people were doing the dungeons (as you demonstrated too) in lightning fast speeds. Ok so far? This is something that you made sure the devs know too as well as other players, not me.
Power is 1 factor for dps and its by far not the biggest
If you look back I already said it that we have several sources of damage but you always rushing to prove how right you are didnt bother to spend few min to look at what is being said: Here is the copy of what I said.
1st You allow the power not to have diminishing returns (not judging if its right or wrong just stating a fact) 2nd You allow the powershare to give its benefits X4 extra times through the companion 3rd You set Bonding stones too high as a % since mod 6 (maybe) 4th Buffs having multiplicative nature between them (each skill and from each class multiply with each other) so when we stack buff classes, the numbers increase exponentially
Now that we know the sources we need to see which is the major one, in order of effect and also keeping in mind the mid range and lower range groups. For that reason, power not having diminishing returns can stay since we can just eliminate the getting the power from other sources easier. Buffs having multiplicative nature is helpful in all groups (low end, mid end , high end) because those are player / class based and can develop play style and synergy / strategy with other classes. So we are left with two.
As you see, not reading the original posts can lead to you looking like a guy that is... assuming. So tom tell me, do you want the buffs to lose multiplicative nature so all the players will have issues and problems playing the game? Do you want diminishing returns to power? do you know any OTHER major sources of damage that haven't being nerfed already in the sake of power creep?
Based on logic we will try to fix the problem by eliminating or adjusting the major source of power creep. Which is? 1. bonding stone now (on new mod) offering almost half the stat points (17842) so a loss of 13k points. Even less if we calculate that we will also have r14 on our gears so the neat loss will be from 2300 points to 945 points depending on what gears you use on companion. 2. Powesharing through companion using bonding that can give anything from +35k extra stat points to all the way to 130k stat points (if not more) when you stack classes. I can show you screenshots if need be, with a dps being able to go at MAX 315k power with average being at 190k-250k power.
Which one do you think its fair for ALL the player base to change in order to reduce the power creep
1. A bonding that gives, from 30k stats now and 17k points as is, with rank 12,in the new mod and leads to no change for the actual problem of the power creep that exists as players still getting 200k+ power
2. THE PORTION of powershare that can give from 35.000 extra start point all the way to 130.000 stat points when you stack classes.
Also please note here and so to save you from repeating yourself again, I mentioned the effect of the powershare on BONDING only. Also I suggested to buff the AC / pally powershare to direct affect ONLY the player and with the appropriate amount up to the point the devs feel it doesn't cause power creep problems in the near future (and make you post things like this "considering that in FBI u kill the boss in 5 seconds" )
Now without jihads and other stupid things, bring your facts and state clear your opinion (and not just "as i wrote above i dont see a issue with bondings or powershare") If you don't see an issue then you maybe have an issue.
...unless you want to make the devs check the other sources of damage too....then AC wont be the only problem
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited September 2017
I find it really funny that some of you think removal of power sharing is somehow can to be a magic fix to the game.
Can we stick to the issue of the company ripping away a % of power and reselling it to us, for power we already bought.. its crazy.
That is the only issue we need to discuss.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I don't why we are creating a meta argument between ourselves over this DC thing. It's distracting for us who are terrible at math and don't use a DC xD
It's distracting for Devs too, since whatever disagreements we are having with ourselves are not going to be resolved by ourselves, it's probably best to just post our facts and let the Devs get their calculators out when they get back to work Monday.
it seems like we disagree at a fundamental lvl. U want to nerf stuff and id rather want the devs to bring harder content at us thats why i said tong is a good step.
if u think that means i have issues then... i dont think we need continue this conversation
It's not about removing power share as it is, it's more about changing the ways buffs work. We're not against the buffs, we're against the buff interactions. They're nerfing the wrong thing because of this problem. And yeah, as you said, they're re-selling already bought power but I noted that in the video I made. If we compare M12 BiS to M12b BiS, it will cost about 45m AD, depending on how meta shifts around, but just to upgrade enchants, that's the number. Now, if you were to buy Zen and sell it for AD on the ZAX, that would be about 900$ on PC, less on consoles 'cause there's rarely a ZAX backlog there. So they expect us to pay the equivalent of 900 feakking dollars to re-buy something we ALREADY have? According to devs, yes.
it seems like we disagree at a fundamental lvl. U want to nerf stuff and id rather want the devs to bring harder content at us thats why i said tong is a good step.
if u think that means i have issues then... I dont think we need continue this conversation
We do disagree, no doubt that we do, but one with facts the other without... Because you disagree and don't answer to my points does't mean you are right. As for the harder dungeons, we are not talking about what we would rather have as I would agree with that, but here on the changes on bonding stones thread we have 2 options. Either pick one or please don't derail the subject.
Btw I was referring to the fbi boss being 5 sec due to power creep.
about not continuing this conversation... I totally agree. Thank you for your comments
Speedruns and showboating are the reasons we keep getting nerfed in the first place. Speedruns should not happen, ever. Content should be balanced and tiered. But ya, if you town down power share from AC DC, you have to balance the absurd Terrifying Insight of DO DC, that is another broken thing introduced into the game.
I absolutely agree with that.
The problem here is, only 3% ? of the players can perform speed runs if run together. I only know may be 5 of them , and just eventually make runs with one them, which is not ans speedrun then.
Lets assume for a moment the FALSE statement by which the devs intention its just to balance speedruns. So they thinking has been, we need to make such players 40% less powerfull in order to accomplish that, then lets do all players 40% less powerfull as well.
Comon, we know devs are smarter than that.
They could just have made stronger dimishing returns for power past lets say 120k?, same with buff/debuff staking, make all them aditive not multiplicative (here is where some strange things happens) ; there are dozens of ways to balance speed runs without impacting average players.
But they dont want that. They just want our money easy and fast!
@tom#6998 % buffs are always gonna be 40%. power based buffs won't. power based buffs increase your DPS on 2 sides. Power buffs your DPS directly, and buffs up your enchants if you're not using a crit sev enchant.
Power doesn't buff the dmg of %wpn-dmg enchants 2 times. They are only buffed ONE time, you can test that yourself on preview.
I don't see a problem with having 200-300k Power IN GENERAL. If you would replace the Power buffs with %dmg-buffs that produce a combined equal multiplier as the one Power would grant, then we would have the same "problem". People would deal the same damage, just the character sheet would look differently.
Why all the discussion about Power-buffs in the bonding-thread? The main reason why bondings are so powerful is because they make Power-buffs more effective and creating builds that purely focus on that mechanic become viable. Changing the % and/ or uptime of the bonding buff does as well affect the balancing of these classes and the other way around, changing the amount of Power buffed by these classes affects the efficiency of bondings.
This stays true as long as companions can be the target of buffs.
The class who would suffer if companions can't be buffed with Power would be the OP (my current main-char), because he can partially benefit from Aura Gifts through being rebuffed from his companion.
Aside from that, removing mechanics from the game reduces build-diversity, that's why i would not like such changes. But i would not complain about them if they would happen.
I also don't know how fast the devs intend us to run end-game dungeons and what kind of damage output is considered to be too much. If we deal to much damage and they want to lower it by changing enchants, then it's alright xD
in summary: There is a direct correlation between op/dc and bonding runestones, this has to be included in the balancing-process, that's all.
it seems like we disagree at a fundamental lvl. U want to nerf stuff and id rather want the devs to bring harder content at us thats why i said tong is a good step.
if u think that means i have issues then... I dont think we need continue this conversation
We do disagree, no doubt that we do, but one with facts the other without... Because you disagree and don't answer to my points does't mean you are right. As for the harder dungeons, we are not talking about what we would rather have as I would agree with that, but here on the changes on bonding stones thread we have 2 options. Either pick one or please don't derail the subject.
Btw I was referring to the fbi boss being 5 sec due to power creep.
about not continuing this conversation... I totally agree. Thank you for your comments
can u show me the dev quote stating that we only have those 2 options?
A good portion of the people are complaining without even attempting to test the changes for themselves. There is a mob mentality to this. You can try to deny it, but it's fact.
And 'a good portion' arent. Believe it or not there are a few of us that have played this game more than a day or 2 and know to a pretty good degree how stat changes will effect our play.
As one of the ones that took the time to run to preview and see, including that stupidly large download.. I can say don't bother, the effects are just as people have been outlining here. Less stats, less fun, more annoyance, more expense, with powershare continuing the same problem that these changes are supposed to address.
It should be easier to get to higher ranked levels in all enchantments because you will not need a second enchantment. Even if they don't mess with marks it will be cheaper and easier to level enchantments.
The initial part is easies from level 1-9.. the 10-14 becomes hideously expensive however. They are changing from a system that you can level 1-9 from mostly drops, with a bit of AD purchase for Gmops at the higher end, to one that reduces the reliance on dropped items (rank 5s, marks of potency, lesser marks,etc) AND relies even more heavily on large amounts of high priced AD purchase only marks. Keeping the same RNG dynamic. This doesn't make anything easier, just different and more reliant on AD.
come on devs, now that there are clearly examples of how it's not bondings themselves that are game breaking OP just put an axe to the proposed nerf, and take some time to get into the class balancing concerning the power share multiplyer through companions. give other runestones a boost to make them more viable to certain builds in combination with different auguements as well, really give it some deep thought, get creative. if you cant figure out something good right away concerning the latter then that's fine too, there is no rush.
just to be fair, and I'm not saying it's some evil corporate cash grab, let's say there is a need from the higher ups to start bringing in more revenue, because hey, its still a game ment to turn a profit on some level like any other game being created or currently released, wouldn't you think more players would be interested in buying zen when you can demonstrate your ability to reconsider what they are proving is a bad attempt at balancing? personally I've been planning on buying some zen for vip as soon as TONG hits the consoles because I want to try my luck at the trex mount I've been reading about on here. there is alot of hype behind the new mod, I've heard nothing but good things about it, especially how fun the new dungeon is. earning my way into it and then beating it is something I'm looking forward to, and I'm realistically not the only one with that pov.
this proposal is deflating that hype SO fast it hurts. again personally, I wont have any time to be worrying about buying zen for the new lockboxes, because all my gaming time will have to be spent trying to re-gear up to get BACK into the content from the last mod, and I don't think me or anybody else is considering buying zen to do that, it's just bad marketing at that point. people love playing this game, myself included, reconsider on this one.
The devs made a mistake in making bondings as powerful as they are.
No. They didn't. They made content that was obsolete even more obsolete, while giving players a goal to seek, that by now many players have achieved. In the mean time they made several new areas, dungeons, skirmishes that some with BIS gear take on as a cakewalk (as it should be given the time/expense in gathering that gear), a large number quickly build up to because they are Very Good in slot not BIS (again as it should be), the majority work for monthes to succeed and prosper at, and some just never get good at it (sad, but inevitable with any content, but good that it is a small number).
The devs made a mistake in making bondings as powerful as they are. There were dire (and correct) warnings on the forum at the time. They made a mistake in letting it go on so long. That makes it hard to make changes now. .... and try to trust that the system designers will rebalance the game as appropriate.
^- != logic
When are we to trust in this happening. Because given the history you recount yourself it would be 2 years from now once everyone is reliant on the new system and there are ~4 mods worth of areas built around that power level.
@greyjay1 I never said it buffs weapon enchant damage twice, I just said that it buffs damage on 2 points. It buffs the normal damage (the one you get by clicking, regardless of whether you have an enchant or not), and it buffs the extra damage done by the scaling enchants like holy avenger, terror and lightning. I guess I said it way too many times already so I'm kinda braindead at this point, I need sleep. Besides, I'm not against power share, I'm against devs' implications that bondings are the issue while power share makes more problems than bondings.
On another note, Terrifying insight is what makes DODCs such good buffers. Because it's a percentage based bonus. But it's VERY controllable. It will never accidentally do more than 20% for no reason, like power can with scaling enchants.
Personally I am against the changings to bonding stones - for a number of reasons that have been stated and stated within this post. But one thing is becoming clearer regarding the changes overall - it is completely mix messages and ideas. They say they make some change to encourage player to play less used classes and to make different options viable, hence make the games waiting times quicker etc.. But then makes changes like this to bonding stone that just adds to the grind and make playing different classes (alt) harder more expensive and time consuming and less attractive to players.
The thing is, you want both bondings and powershare, and now with the new enchants, that's gonna be stupidly overpowered. Because of the power share. While you're there being greedy, what oria1 is trying to suggest is a balance, a compromise so neither side loses (too) much. We'd lose power share, but keep our investment, they'd lose almost nothing and gain the balance and difficulty the new dungeons are supposed to have.
They do not want balance, they want 5 minute FBI runs. I do not see how that can even be fun.
Wonder why people care so much about speed runs? Because there are three ways to become BiS in this game. 1. Play 100 years at a reasonable pace. 2. Spend a metric ton of money. 3. Run content 50 times a day just to eek out AD to progress you character. Clearly #3 is not the meta the developers want. They prefer #2, and if not #2, enjoy your 100 year journey to BiS.
can u show me the dev quote stating that we only have those 2 options?
I thought we stopped the conversation Guess not...
Again you got it wrong, In this thread named "OFFICIAL FEEDBACK THREAD: BONDING RUNESTONE CHANGES" the devs suggested to have the bondings nerfed for a % of their damage and 50% on/off, After user input, they took the 50% on/off and now we are talking / exploring if the power sharing to the companion portion ONLY is much more responsible than the % on bondings, for the power creep that they are trying to fix. So there are the 2 options One stated by devs and one from me and others.
Do you see any other options? Nerf the buffs and make them additive? Remove buffs from some classes? add diminishing returns to power and /or damage? Adjust the damage of some DPS paths? Which one is for the better benefit of most if not all the players and which one caters for your personal interest? Which one solves the problem of making content trivial (already doing avatar in under 2 min and speed runs of 17 and 19 m)
Please expand if you know more or better options ooh yeah.. nevermind
The whole story here, started because devs diagnosed a huge power creep in the game.
..and few have addressed (other than with powershare) how even that original dx is bogus.
Of course there is power creep.. try to run MSP with Tia vintage gear, its not gonna happen. We have new harder dungeons over that time that have required more strength to survive.
What else has happened in the interim? We've added new more powerful weapons in nearly every mod since the elemental set came out. We've recently seen weapons that are nearly equivalent to the most powerful in the game minus the set bonus made so cheap that you can buy them for alts with 1 days RAD income. We've seen companion legendary bonus go from 1 to 5 companions. We've seen the addition of mounts, insignia bonuses, mount bonuses, more guilds getting to higher rank for guild boons. Debuff cap was raised from 200-300% (which specifically effects multu DC runs) reducing wasted debuffs for high end teams. We've seen relic armor, once avail. only through the hardest dungeon in the game now available for marks received from every dungeon in the game. Weapon enchants have been massively buffed recently and multistat enchants buffed as well which was said at the time to be able to 'compete'. We've seen the addition of mysterious merchant gear and new more powerful armors from mod 12 AND even more powerful weapons/armors/potions from mastercraft as well.
Where could this increasing power possibly be coming from? Yes we should blame the thing thats remained the same for well over a year./s
Comments
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
So, what is the biggest factor now? The meta shifted from crits to power stacking for a reason. Power is plentiful in any high tier dungeon, the new enchants are literally dependent on power, and it's the only uncapped multiplier in the game.
It's you who's ignoring the facts, mate. The fact is, something needs to be nerfed. If you nerf the players directly (aka bondings), they'll have issues where they shouldn't have. If you nerf power share, you will no longer see 18 minute TNGs. A top tier dungeon is literally destroyed by a group of relatively competent people.
No one is on a "jihad*" against DCs. You are literally the only person who sees it that way, and doesn't seem to notice that these changes would actually make new DCs much, MUCH better. There's no place for dumb arguments and bias here, mate.
That is just a small change, but we'll have to spent a lot of money to get to the exact place where we are now. If the bonds would have changed as promised first in that announcement it would be great for new gaming experience and the use of alternatives. But now it just looks as devs want to suck out our money and give us literally nothing, and everyone's happy with that? It all looks like the bonding nerf was a plan to concentrate the attention on irrelevant issue, while the main purpose was anything but giving us, the player community, anything interesting and conceptually new.
I hope, that everyone would understand and support my idea of banning this "bonding nerf", and to make dev's produce some actual new gaming experience!
You might say it become easier for new players to upgrade. In the mechanics - definitely yes, to r12 enchants. But this will provide them similar gaming experience as if they would have upgraded to r10 now. That is not the purpose of the game, but new playable areas, dungeons, raids, characters and pvp! I would have spent any amount if I would've been given away to increase my power, stats and extend my gameplay experience, but spending thousands to get nowhere? Is that how we should accept what devs through at us?
And u might not be on war with DCs but from what oria is posting usually i cant help but see it this way.
Also im curious why would this make new DCs much better? Cause there will also be only 1 build left for DCs like its with GWFs now. Is it really the goal to narrow each class down so it has only 1 vaiable build?
It's distracting for Devs too, since whatever disagreements we are having with ourselves are not going to be resolved by ourselves, it's probably best to just post our facts and let the Devs get their calculators out when they get back to work Monday.
% buffs are always gonna be 40%. power based buffs won't. power based buffs increase your DPS on 2 sides. Power buffs your DPS directly, and buffs up your enchants if you're not using a crit sev enchant. And critstacking isn't meta anymore. Powerstacking is.
I did a 22 min TNG run and I'm a 14.2k DPS, was only possible because of 2x DC and 1x paladin. I consistently had over 300k power.
It would help new ACDCs a lot because they wouldn't be so base-power dependent. If they don't have a LOT of power, they can't even scratch a DODC in terms of buffs, and if it was a % based buff, it would scale much better for both low and top tier players.
If a low tier player gets 20k power in addition to his peak 30k, that's a LOT. If a top tier player gets 20k power in addition to his 70k, that's not nearly as good. That's why a percentage based buff would help - ACDCs could run with top tier players even if they're undergeared, and that would make them as good as DODCs in most situations and better in some, regardless of their item level.
Mind you, if you don't believe me that power contributes more, look for one of my recent calcs. Shows that power increases DPS by much more than a %-based buff.
> @tom#6998
> So, what is the biggest factor now? The meta shifted from crits to power stacking for a reason. Power is plentiful in any high tier dungeon, the new enchants are literally dependent on power, and it's the only uncapped multiplier in the game.
> It's you who's ignoring the facts, mate. The fact is, something needs to be nerfed. If you nerf the players directly (aka bondings), they'll have issues where they shouldn't have. If you nerf power share, you will no longer see 18 minute TNGs. A top tier dungeon is literally destroyed by a group of relatively competent people.
>
> No one is on a "jihad*" against DCs. You are literally the only person who sees it that way, and doesn't seem to notice that these changes would actually make new DCs much, MUCH better. There's no place for dumb arguments and bias here, mate.
>
> %dmg buffs contribute alot more to dps then Powershare does. And the meta didnt shift from crits to Powerstacking its critstacking till 100% and then Power. If you feel like smth needs to be nerfed then ok... we have to agree to disagree then. I dont think 17-18 min Tong runs for the top groups are destroying the game. And with this nerf u will hurt the "average" group (which easily takes over 30-40min to finish) alot more then the high end groups.
>
> And u might not be on war with DCs but from what oria is posting usually i cant help but see it this way.
>
> Also im curious why would this make new DCs much better? Cause there will also be only 1 build left for DCs like its with GWFs now. Is it really the goal to narrow each class down so it has only 1 vaiable build?
let's put it this way I'm a bis gwf, my ibs hits for 1.5 mill when running solo with bondings proced and self buffs up
but when i run fbi with 2×dc and a pally my ibs hits for between 35 to 40 mill so if bondings were over powered why am i only hitting ibs for 1.5 mill when running solo yet with a power share group i can hit 30 times harder and hit for 35 mill upwards?
I stated something specific and you keep answering with something general about the powershare and trying to make me look like I talk about the Dc or I hate DC while you cant stop mentioned it. If at the end they will do something to the AC it will be on you not me.
All that everyone can see is that while I never mentioned what a DC or the powershare as concept, can or cant do you keep bring it up and every time you will get the same answer. I'm not talking about the DC as a class.
When you overcome your obsession with the DC please read the following.
The whole story here, started because devs diagnosed a huge power creep in the game. Not all but a big number of people were doing the dungeons (as you demonstrated too) in lightning fast speeds. Ok so far? This is something that you made sure the devs know too as well as other players, not me. Lets see now on how many points you are wrong. If you look back I already said it that we have several sources of damage but you always rushing to prove how right you are didnt bother to spend few min to look at what is being said: Here is the copy of what I said. As you see, not reading the original posts can lead to you looking like a guy that is... assuming.
So tom tell me, do you want the buffs to lose multiplicative nature so all the players will have issues and problems playing the game?
Do you want diminishing returns to power?
do you know any OTHER major sources of damage that haven't being nerfed already in the sake of power creep?
so we are left with two Which one do you think its fair for ALL the player base to change in order to reduce the power creep
1. A bonding that gives, from 30k stats now and 17k points as is, with rank 12,in the new mod and leads to no change for the actual problem of the power creep that exists as players still getting 200k+ power
2. THE PORTION of powershare that can give from 35.000 extra start point all the way to 130.000 stat points when you stack classes.
Also please note here and so to save you from repeating yourself again, I mentioned the effect of the powershare on BONDING only. Also I suggested to buff the AC / pally powershare to direct affect ONLY the player and with the appropriate amount up to the point the devs feel it doesn't cause power creep problems in the near future (and make you post things like this "considering that in FBI u kill the boss in 5 seconds" )
Now without jihads and other stupid things, bring your facts and state clear your opinion (and not just "as i wrote above i dont see a issue with bondings or powershare") If you don't see an issue then you maybe have an issue.
...unless you want to make the devs check the other sources of damage too....then AC wont be the only problem
Can we stick to the issue of the company ripping away a % of power and reselling it to us, for power we already bought.. its crazy.
That is the only issue we need to discuss.
it seems like we disagree at a fundamental lvl.
U want to nerf stuff and id rather want the devs to bring harder content at us thats why i said tong is a good step.
if u think that means i have issues then... i dont think we need continue this conversation
And yeah, as you said, they're re-selling already bought power but I noted that in the video I made.
If we compare M12 BiS to M12b BiS, it will cost about 45m AD, depending on how meta shifts around, but just to upgrade enchants, that's the number. Now, if you were to buy Zen and sell it for AD on the ZAX, that would be about 900$ on PC, less on consoles 'cause there's rarely a ZAX backlog there. So they expect us to pay the equivalent of 900 feakking dollars to re-buy something we ALREADY have?
According to devs, yes.
Btw I was referring to the fbi boss being 5 sec due to power creep.
about not continuing this conversation... I totally agree.
Thank you for your comments
The problem here is, only 3% ? of the players can perform speed runs if run together. I only know may be 5 of them , and just eventually make runs with one them, which is not ans speedrun then.
Lets assume for a moment the FALSE statement by which the devs intention its just to balance speedruns. So they thinking has been, we need to make such players 40% less powerfull in order to accomplish that, then lets do all players 40% less powerfull as well.
Comon, we know devs are smarter than that.
They could just have made stronger dimishing returns for power past lets say 120k?, same with buff/debuff staking, make all them aditive not multiplicative (here is where some strange things happens) ; there are dozens of ways to balance speed runs without impacting average players.
But they dont want that. They just want our money easy and fast!
I don't see a problem with having 200-300k Power IN GENERAL.
If you would replace the Power buffs with %dmg-buffs that produce a combined equal multiplier as the one Power would grant, then we would have the same "problem". People would deal the same damage, just the character sheet would look differently.
Why all the discussion about Power-buffs in the bonding-thread?
The main reason why bondings are so powerful is because they make Power-buffs more effective and creating builds that purely focus on that mechanic become viable.
Changing the % and/ or uptime of the bonding buff does as well affect the balancing of these classes and the other way around, changing the amount of Power buffed by these classes affects the efficiency of bondings.
This stays true as long as companions can be the target of buffs.
The class who would suffer if companions can't be buffed with Power would be the OP (my current main-char), because he can partially benefit from Aura Gifts through being rebuffed from his companion.
Aside from that, removing mechanics from the game reduces build-diversity, that's why i would not like such changes. But i would not complain about them if they would happen.
I also don't know how fast the devs intend us to run end-game dungeons and what kind of damage output is considered to be too much. If we deal to much damage and they want to lower it by changing enchants, then it's alright xD
in summary:
There is a direct correlation between op/dc and bonding runestones, this has to be included in the balancing-process, that's all.
And 'a good portion' arent. Believe it or not there are a few of us that have played this game more than a day or 2 and know to a pretty good degree how stat changes will effect our play.
As one of the ones that took the time to run to preview and see, including that stupidly large download.. I can say don't bother, the effects are just as people have been outlining here. Less stats, less fun, more annoyance, more expense, with powershare continuing the same problem that these changes are supposed to address.
The initial part is easies from level 1-9.. the 10-14 becomes hideously expensive however. They are changing from a system that you can level 1-9 from mostly drops, with a bit of AD purchase for Gmops at the higher end, to one that reduces the reliance on dropped items (rank 5s, marks of potency, lesser marks,etc) AND relies even more heavily on large amounts of high priced AD purchase only marks. Keeping the same RNG dynamic. This doesn't make anything easier, just different and more reliant on AD.
just to be fair, and I'm not saying it's some evil corporate cash grab, let's say there is a need from the higher ups to start bringing in more revenue, because hey, its still a game ment to turn a profit on some level like any other game being created or currently released, wouldn't you think more players would be interested in buying zen when you can demonstrate your ability to reconsider what they are proving is a bad attempt at balancing? personally I've been planning on buying some zen for vip as soon as TONG hits the consoles because I want to try my luck at the trex mount I've been reading about on here. there is alot of hype behind the new mod, I've heard nothing but good things about it, especially how fun the new dungeon is. earning my way into it and then beating it is something I'm looking forward to, and I'm realistically not the only one with that pov.
this proposal is deflating that hype SO fast it hurts. again personally, I wont have any time to be worrying about buying zen for the new lockboxes, because all my gaming time will have to be spent trying to re-gear up to get BACK into the content from the last mod, and I don't think me or anybody else is considering buying zen to do that, it's just bad marketing at that point. people love playing this game, myself included, reconsider on this one.
No. They didn't. They made content that was obsolete even more obsolete, while giving players a goal to seek, that by now many players have achieved. In the mean time they made several new areas, dungeons, skirmishes that some with BIS gear take on as a cakewalk (as it should be given the time/expense in gathering that gear), a large number quickly build up to because they are Very Good in slot not BIS (again as it should be), the majority work for monthes to succeed and prosper at, and some just never get good at it (sad, but inevitable with any content, but good that it is a small number).
....
and try to trust that the system designers will rebalance the game as appropriate.
^- != logic
When are we to trust in this happening. Because given the history you recount yourself it would be 2 years from now once everyone is reliant on the new system and there are ~4 mods worth of areas built around that power level.
I never said it buffs weapon enchant damage twice, I just said that it buffs damage on 2 points. It buffs the normal damage (the one you get by clicking, regardless of whether you have an enchant or not), and it buffs the extra damage done by the scaling enchants like holy avenger, terror and lightning. I guess I said it way too many times already so I'm kinda braindead at this point, I need sleep.
Besides, I'm not against power share, I'm against devs' implications that bondings are the issue while power share makes more problems than bondings.
On another note, Terrifying insight is what makes DODCs such good buffers. Because it's a percentage based bonus. But it's VERY controllable. It will never accidentally do more than 20% for no reason, like power can with scaling enchants.
Personally I am against the changings to bonding stones - for a number of reasons that have been stated and stated within this post. But one thing is becoming clearer regarding the changes overall - it is completely mix messages and ideas. They say they make some change to encourage player to play less used classes and to make different options viable, hence make the games waiting times quicker etc.. But then makes changes like this to bonding stone that just adds to the grind and make playing different classes (alt) harder more expensive and time consuming and less attractive to players.
It just does not make sense to me
Again you got it wrong, In this thread named "OFFICIAL FEEDBACK THREAD: BONDING RUNESTONE CHANGES" the devs suggested to have the bondings nerfed for a % of their damage and 50% on/off, After user input, they took the 50% on/off and now we are talking / exploring if the power sharing to the companion portion ONLY is much more responsible than the % on bondings, for the power creep that they are trying to fix. So there are the 2 options One stated by devs and one from me and others.
Do you see any other options? Nerf the buffs and make them additive? Remove buffs from some classes? add diminishing returns to power and /or damage? Adjust the damage of some DPS paths? Which one is for the better benefit of most if not all the players and which one caters for your personal interest? Which one solves the problem of making content trivial (already doing avatar in under 2 min and speed runs of 17 and 19 m)
Please expand if you know more or better options
The whole story here, started because devs diagnosed a huge power creep in the game.
..and few have addressed (other than with powershare) how even that original dx is bogus.
Of course there is power creep.. try to run MSP with Tia vintage gear, its not gonna happen. We have new harder dungeons over that time that have required more strength to survive.
What else has happened in the interim? We've added new more powerful weapons in nearly every mod since the elemental set came out. We've recently seen weapons that are nearly equivalent to the most powerful in the game minus the set bonus made so cheap that you can buy them for alts with 1 days RAD income. We've seen companion legendary bonus go from 1 to 5 companions. We've seen the addition of mounts, insignia bonuses, mount bonuses, more guilds getting to higher rank for guild boons. Debuff cap was raised from 200-300% (which specifically effects multu DC runs) reducing wasted debuffs for high end teams. We've seen relic armor, once avail. only through the hardest dungeon in the game now available for marks received from every dungeon in the game. Weapon enchants have been massively buffed recently and multistat enchants buffed as well which was said at the time to be able to 'compete'. We've seen the addition of mysterious merchant gear and new more powerful armors from mod 12 AND even more powerful weapons/armors/potions from mastercraft as well.
Where could this increasing power possibly be coming from?
Yes we should blame the thing thats remained the same for well over a year./s
Just can use 1 elixir now......meh!
Ick ick ick.. I hadn't noticed that.
Even better!/s
Another bit of attempting to increase diversity by taking away choice and detail. Thats just lame.