silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
except its not really our job to determine that extent they want to see buffing maxed or not, nor really to offer alternatives, there is ZERO need to bring it up or to offer it.. IT has little to do with the discussion.
its very simple to me.. we already paid for the power and they want to resell it to me. RESLLING the same power and the same enchants!!!!
thats mther effing insulting.
that is the single issue im taking on this.
If they want to lower cap or add more diminishing returns. then they can solve thier power creep WITHOUT nerfing and reselling me the same effing powers
they should also lower mob hps by like 50% after that sort of stuff though.
There is no real quick fix here.. none, it will take a rescope of the game..
but again.. THIS is little to do with this.. they say it is.. but to me, it doesnt, they simple want to make us pay money to them for the same thing they just sold us..
I have said my piece and I am done responding now. You can judge the value of what I have said for yourself and I will let it stand on its own.
There is a unique ability some people have, to talk a lot, without saying nothing to the point. Again you completely avoided talking about the bonding issue and the issues I stated, in a honest conversation and not contradiction but I guess I ask much.
You managed to turn this into a nerf AC problem while this is nothing remotely close to it and since I know you are a smart person that can only mean that you want to push your agenda (remember that?) without focusing on the subject in hand. Lets not derail the conversation anymore for your personal issues.
No one asked for nerf on AC quite the opposite we asked to adjust the companion not to receive the powershare buff and cast it to the players X 4 times and also compensate the AC but to the point it doesn't create the power creep anymore. Pure and simple.
The reason that DC powershare should share with bondings is because it is balanced as is and doesn't cause problems.
The reason that the powershare is good is because its good to have powershare.... nice reasoning. This is an example of what I keep saying. I'm talking about the effect on the companion ONLY vs the lowering the stats and that at the end, lowering the stats will lead to nothing and your answer is about the powershare in general and how good it is.
So if powershare through companion its balanced you are saying that bonding is imbalanced? The stone that can give on its own 30k stat points vs a buff that can give 60k or more points?
No one said its BAD, we are saying don't share through the companion to give excessive amounts to the players SPECIALLY when 2 classes can share at the same time, which is one of the reasons it led us here in the first place.
Now please tell us how the AC will have issues again in a bonding thread.
Basically if we go with these proposed changes and make all enchants and bondings r14 on our companions we will be stronger than before, so 6-9 months down the line after spending millions to do so the exact same problem will return. So what has anyone gained by this other than creating the same issue exactly a few months down the line?
I have said my piece and I am done responding now. You can judge the value of what I have said for yourself and I will let it stand on its own.
There is a unique ability some people have, to talk a lot, without saying nothing to the point. Again you completely avoided talking about the bonding issue and the issues I stated, in a honest conversation and not contradiction but I guess I ask much.
You managed to turn this into a nerf AC problem while this is nothing remotely close to it and since I know you are a smart person that can only mean that you want to push your agenda (remember that?) without focusing on the subject in hand. Lets not derail the conversation anymore for your personal issues.
No one asked for nerf on AC quite the opposite we asked to adjust the companion not to receive the powershare buff and cast it to the players X 4 times and also compensate the AC but to the point it doesn't create the power creep anymore. Pure and simple.
The reason that DC powershare should share with bondings is because it is balanced as is and doesn't cause problems.
The reason that the powershare is good is because its good to have powershare.... nice reasoning. This is an example of what I keep saying. I'm talking about the effect on the companion ONLY vs the lowering the stats and that at the end, lowering the stats will lead to nothing and your answer is about the powershare in general and how good it is.
So if powershare through companion its balanced you are saying that bonding is imbalanced? The stone that can give on its own 30k stat points vs a buff that can give 60k or more points?
No one said its BAD, we are saying don't share through the companion to give excessive amounts to the players SPECIALLY when 2 classes can share at the same time, which is one of the reasons it led us here in the first place.
Now please tell us how the AC will have issues again in a bonding thread.
So u say u are not asking for a nerf on ACDC then your proposal should be to remove powershare from Pets but also Buff Anointed Army to now buff 132% of the DCs base power and BoB to now give 60% of the DCs Base Power. And about pushing Agendas your the one to talk...
Looking at the current Content neither Bondings nor Powershare are OP. Cryptic just wants us to Spend more Money/AD and thus they nerf Bondings and not Powershare.
There are two issues as far as I am concerned. How this will effect gameplay and the simple principle of nerfing something that people have paid for. I do not know enough about how the game works to argue the first point, but I can argue the second.
When Volkswagen got caught up in their diesel emmissions scandal they patched the engine software to eliminate the cheating code. Testing by a third party showed that mpg on one model dropped from 50 mpg to 47 mpg. People who bought a 50mpg car had it "nerfed" to a 47mpg car. Now that is only a 6% reduction, seems minor right? But that is not something you can get away with without compensating your customers in the real world.
People go on and on about how this is how MMO's work. I don't know, this is the only one I have played. But I have been told that many big MMO's don't have the micro(or macro) transactions this game has to buy improvements for you character. If you are going to charge people money for something you have a responsibility not to diminish the value of their purchases.
There probably isn't much we can do about it other than learn from our mistakes and refuse to spend money when the developer has no respect for our investment.
So u say u are not asking for a nerf on ACDC then your proposal should be to remove powershare from Pets but also Buff Anointed Army to now buff 132% of the DCs base power and BoB to now give 60% of the DCs Base Power. And about pushing Agendas your the one to talk...
Looking at the current Content neither Bondings nor Powershare are OP. Cryptic just wants us to Spend more Money/AD and thus they nerf Bondings and not Powershare.
You have it mixed up, I never said specific values, Sharp did as an expert on DC so please talk to him.
I said buff to the appropriate level that the devs think it doesn't create excessive power. So as you see I have no agenda and it would be better to direct that one to the ones who proposed that.
I never said anything about the DC nor for the Paladin. I just mentioned the powershare that goes THROUGH the companion to the player and compared ONLY that portion of powershare as stat contribution versus to the bonding stone stat contribution.You guys keep throwing numbers about the DC which has nothing to do with the topic.
Turtle in FBI, second Boss in SP, and last boss in T9G can perma kill companions by throwing them into the water / off the platform. FYI, if this happens now on T9G for the dps, it's most likely a wipe, and the group restarts.
Ah, I hadn't noticed. Thanks for clarifying that. I mostly run these days with my DO DC who uses an augment. Definitely bugs that need to be addressed.
Telling everyone these changes are fine when you already don't use bondings... if you don't have a dog in the fight, especially as a mod, sit this one out.
And it's not just about can you do the content.
A lot of us play this game to compare incremental upgrades, to compare our performance against ourselves so we can see progress in the game. I compare how long river district dailies took me on my 2700 ilvl pally and DC when I started it to my 14500 pally and DC and I am happy with the progress. Now if they reset that in a few months, I already know how much damage I'll be able to do when I get back to where I'm currently at. It will also cost me millions of AD to get back to this baseline, so I say no thanks. If this change goes through I don't think I'll participate.
Alright, here you go. Show this to devs too, it's got a bit more rambling but most of the problems are there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y00WBdspclY
@billyriz12 Augments will NEVER be equal to bondings, as long as they don't get affected by power share.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
Telling everyone these changes are fine when you already don't use bondings... if you don't have a dog in the fight, especially as a mod, sit this one out.
I have a set of R12 bondings, just not for my DC (he was AC DC in the past, but not recently). I only run mod 10 content on my DC because I was too busy irl to grind it on multiple toons when mod 10 came out (and frankly, it's not one of my favorites).
I'm not sure what you think a moderator is. I'm a player that has been with the game since open beta. I have as much right to express my opinion as any other player. Moderators are not employees of PWE or Cryptic.
So u say u are not asking for a nerf on ACDC then your proposal should be to remove powershare from Pets but also Buff Anointed Army to now buff 132% of the DCs base power and BoB to now give 60% of the DCs Base Power. And about pushing Agendas your the one to talk...
Looking at the current Content neither Bondings nor Powershare are OP. Cryptic just wants us to Spend more Money/AD and thus they nerf Bondings and not Powershare.
You have it mixed up, I never said specific values, Sharp did as an expert on DC so please talk to him.
I said buff to the appropriate level that the devs think it doesn't create excessive power. So as you see I have no agenda and it would be better to direct that one to the ones who proposed that.
I never said anything about the DC nor for the Paladin. I just mentioned the powershare that goes THROUGH the companion to the player and compared ONLY that portion of powershare as stat contribution versus to the bonding stone stat contribution.You guys keep throwing numbers about the DC which has nothing to do with the topic.
I hope you see it now.
u can talk all u want to take away powershare on pets is a Nerf to ACDC. If you cap debuffs at 150% act effectivness that would also kill of mof debuffers maybe u understand it now
I would like please we devoted players dont loose the perspective on this matter.
Please realise power share is just fine and in line with what other buffers can bring to the party; an AC or OP buffing by power share (and other buffs) are in like to what can bring a DO or a Mof , specially since they remove the debuff cap. Nerf the power share and a good team still will achieve similar results with 1 DO +1 Mof + 2x tanks x dps.
Please dont fall in that trap and spend so many posts with that.
The real and simple issue here is that by nerfing bondings they are forcing all of us to spend more money. It is an easy solution to force all 90% of current users to look into our pocket without any investment on their side. Its a clear WIN-LOSE deal.
I dont think bondings introduction as it is now was a great idea. But that fact now is it really doenst matter, after 5 mods adjusted to current bonding performance, all players (but real newbs) fully rely on bondings to have fun on this game, thats out of question.
Making new content a lot harder, then increase bondings ranks and enchants. Then boost augment if you cought*really care*cough about lower level players. Make a WIN-WIN deal.
So u say u are not asking for a nerf on ACDC then your proposal should be to remove powershare from Pets but also Buff Anointed Army to now buff 132% of the DCs base power and BoB to now give 60% of the DCs Base Power. And about pushing Agendas your the one to talk...
Looking at the current Content neither Bondings nor Powershare are OP. Cryptic just wants us to Spend more Money/AD and thus they nerf Bondings and not Powershare.
You have it mixed up, I never said specific values, Sharp did as an expert on DC so please talk to him.
I said buff to the appropriate level that the devs think it doesn't create excessive power. So as you see I have no agenda and it would be better to direct that one to the ones who proposed that.
I never said anything about the DC nor for the Paladin. I just mentioned the powershare that goes THROUGH the companion to the player and compared ONLY that portion of powershare as stat contribution versus to the bonding stone stat contribution.You guys keep throwing numbers about the DC which has nothing to do with the topic.
I hope you see it now.
u can talk all u want to take away powershare on pets is a Nerf to ACDC. If you cap debuffs at 150% act effectivness that would also kill of mof debuffers maybe u understand it now
AW.. It will make people work harder.. can't be doing that can we? Gotta be given everything easily. I personally think they should buff the DC/OP powershare to the player and remove the powershare through the companion. It will make us work harder together to win. Not be so powerful you run through everything as fast as you can. What fun is that? Just my ignorant opinion.
> u can talk all u want to take away powershare on pets is a Nerf to ACDC. If you cap debuffs at 150% act effectivness that would also kill of mof debuffers maybe u understand it now
No, he doesn't. I've said this a lot of times too and I don't really give a damn which kind of DCs exist and don't exist, just like you don't care about sentinel path for gwfs or whatever. ANYWAYS, what he's trying to imply is that an alteration between interactions of the ACDC's powers and players and the players' companions. If you can't comprehend that... well that's not anyone's issue. Besides, powershare is overpowered. I explained why. It ain't my problem that you have decided to not read or watch any of the stuff I posted. Changing a buff from % of DC's power to a straight % of the player's DPS is not a nerf. ACDC with 45k power gives a LOT of power even on its own, let alone if there's another DC or pally with Aura gifts. Getting bonus power is stupidly overpowered because it increases our DPS on 2 points - our normal weapon damage + power + other multis, and the additional hit from the enchants that scale with power. So a 40% increase in weapon damage via power also increases our damage via enchant, while a straight 40% buff to damage affects only the normal hit and not the additional one. So you don't get the extreme 1m hits with GWF or 1m ticks with HR.
@ashworthrd99 As i've explained above, making it a straight buff, instead of a power buff would make much more sense. It would make dungeons legitimately hard as you don't get the increased healing, damage and weapon damage because you have less power. While with a straight buff like what ITF does would work much better (as in, it wouldn't be stupidly overpowered)
u can talk all u want to take away powershare on pets is a Nerf to ACDC. If you cap debuffs at 150% act effectivness that would also kill of mof debuffers maybe u understand it now
From the looks of it you guys do the talk. I m just stating facts. You talk about DC when I don't, you talk about debuffs when I don't and FYI the debuffs got nerfed and I adjusted to it, still doing great and never complained unlike others that they put their self interest higher than the rest of the players.
The personal attacks though from you your friends and the avoidance of talking about the issues in hand, juts proves to me and people here about where the real problem is and what your real worrying is all about.
I would like please we devoted players dont loose the perspective on this matter.
Please realise power share is just fine and in line with what other buffers can bring to the party; an AC or OP buffing by power share (and other buffs) are in like to what can bring a DO or a Mof , specially since they remove the debuff cap. Nerf the power share and a good team still will achieve similar results with 1 DO +1 Mof + 2x tanks x dps.
Please dont fall in that trap and spend so many posts with that.
The real and simple issue here is that by nerfing bondings they are forcing all of us to spend more money. It is an easy solution to force all 90% of current users to look into our pocket without any investment on their side. Its a clear WIN-LOSE deal.
I dont think bondings introduction as it is now was a great idea. But that fact now is it really doenst matter, after 5 mods adjusted to current bonding performance, all players (but real newbs) fully rely on bondings to have fun on this game, thats out of question.
Making new content a lot harder, then increase bondings ranks and enchants. Then boost augment if you cought*really care*cough about lower level players. Make a WIN-WIN deal.
Nothing else really matters...
Which is what I'm saying too, thank you.
If they are to remove something its a lot better to remove the PORTION of power share to companion as it can get in cases stupidly high and make the AC / PALLY buff straight to player as power or as damage buff.... how much? as much as it needs to avoid having power creep (according to the devs) again. No one is saying nerf the DC or nerf the pally. Even at a personal role as a MoF debuffer or GWF or SW I can't function without buffs.
If they do that then there is a good reason to keep the bonding as it is and a win - win situation for most players as they get to keep bonding and for cryptic that will get the power creep toned down.
u can talk all u want to take away powershare on pets is a Nerf to ACDC. If you cap debuffs at 150% act effectivness that would also kill of mof debuffers maybe u understand it now
From the looks of it you guys do the talk. I m just stating facts. You talk about DC when I don't, you talk about debuffs when I don't and FYI the debuffs got nerfed and I adjusted to it, still doing great and never complained unlike others that they put their self interest higher than the rest of the players.
The personal attacks though from you your friends and the avoidance of talking about the issues in hand, juts prove to me and people here about where the real problem is and what your real worrying is all about.
Thank you for clarifying that.
as i wrote above i dont see a issue with bondings or powershare. I think given the content we have they are both fine. The devs now decided to nerf bondings and now u are trying to turn this into a powersharing issue. The devs dont really care about balance they care about $$
the only thing u might get is that they nerf bondings and powershare... i guess u are happy then?
The thing is, you want both bondings and powershare, and now with the new enchants, that's gonna be stupidly overpowered. Because of the power share. While you're there being greedy, what oria1 is trying to suggest is a balance, a compromise so neither side loses (too) much. We'd lose power share, but keep our investment, they'd lose almost nothing and gain the balance and difficulty the new dungeons are supposed to have.
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
edited September 2017
I'm fully with @oria1 on this. Nobody is asking to kill the AC DC. The devs should remove powershare via bondings on preview, then ask for feedback and listen to what happened to the AC DC and OP's effectiveness in combat, do their tests, and then adjust accordingly both classes/paths to keep them in a good spot. What they are doing today has nothing to do with balancing. It's just a money-grab where they tell us they want us to improve our enchants just to get to where we already are now.
This change is definitely worse than mod6. Mod6 at least tried to look at what the real issue was (lifesteal making DPS immortal) and nerfed it, while at the same time making survival more difficult. The implementation was not good, but at least they tried to assess the real problem. What they are doing today has nothing to do with balancing. It's just a money-grab where they tell us they want us to improve our enchants just to get to where we already are now. Devs, if you think the power level we have today is too high nerf us, but then don't resell us the same power at the same time. It either is broken or it isn't. What you're telling us is: what you have now is broken, but if you hand us over 500 bucks it is not broken anymore....
EDIT: and I'm not against giving you 500 bucks in general, I regularly spend money on this game to support your work and plan to do the same in future if you behave in an honest way...
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
as i wrote above i dont see a issue with bondings or powershare. I think given the content we have they are both fine. The devs now decided to nerf bondings and now u are trying to turn this into a powersharing issue. The devs dont really care about balance they care about $$
the only thing u might get is that they nerf bondings and powershare... i guess u are happy then?
You don't see an issue and I do, now bring your facts and I will bring mine. Numbers don't lie or hide things and don't get personal. . Glad to see your knowledge on what the devs want though. As far as me, I saw they did change the time on/off for the bonding and now maybe the will change this. Its their call, not yours.
But since you like to keep repeating yourself lets try one more time: I'm not trying to turn it to a powershare issue for any class. You keep bringing up about the DC and about nerf etc etc. and therefore you will end up doing of what you accuse me of trying. Self fulfilling prophecy. Or you think because a player said something the devs will do it?
Based though on how much annoyed, you (plural) got for the comment i made one cant help but wonder... Is the AC so bad that they need a buff to a companion to keep them relevant? And if so what does that say about said buff method?
Instead of focusing to make a cohesive argument to the devs for the benefit of all the players regardless of their tier you complain about the AC because one path of one class is FAR more important then all the other players. Nice way of all of you on showing how you really think.
as i wrote above i dont see a issue with bondings or powershare. I think given the content we have they are both fine. The devs now decided to nerf bondings and now u are trying to turn this into a powersharing issue. The devs dont really care about balance they care about $$
the only thing u might get is that they nerf bondings and powershare... i guess u are happy then?
You don't see an issue and I do, now bring your facts and I will bring mine. Numbers don't lie or hide things and don't get personal. . Glad to see your knowledge on what the devs want though. As far as me, I saw they did change the time on/off for the bonding and now maybe the will change this. Its their call, not yours.
But since you like to keep repeating yourself lets try one more time: I'm not trying to turn it to a powershare issue for any class. You keep bringing up about the DC and about nerf etc etc. and therefore you will end up doing of what you accuse me of trying. Self fulfilling prophecy. Or you think because a player said something the devs will do it?
Based though on how much annoyed, you (plural) got for the comment i made one cant help but wonder... Is the AC so bad that they need a buff to a companion to keep them relevant? And if so what does that say about said buff method?
Instead of focusing to make a cohesive argument to the devs for the benefit of all the players regardless of their tier you complain about the AC because one path of one class is FAR more important then all the other players. Nice way of all of you on showing how you really think.
when sharp statet numbers u were ingoring them... why should i post them again? U are on a Djihad against DCs for a long time... and now u see a oportunity to nerf DCs so u dont have to make fake arguments for your mof anymore
sharp alrdy posted facts... u were ignoring them...
u really think the Powershare is breaking the game? Power is 1 factor for dps and its by far not the biggest. And nerfing Powershare makes it an issue for Classes that use that no point in denying. Do u think that players are way to OP for the newest dungeon? If you have a very good group u can run it pretty fast but nothing i would call worthy of beeing nerfed. I dont see the need for nerfs here. And i doubt the devs do... they are selling us back what the take away now thats a decision based on Money.
If you want the bonding nerf to be reverted then suggest that but leave the other stuff.
As i see it u are just on your djihad against DCs again. Maybe u are just proposing this so u dont have to make fake arguments for your mof anymore?
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Turtle in FBI, second Boss in SP, and last boss in T9G can perma kill companions by throwing them into the water / off the platform. FYI, if this happens now on T9G for the dps, it's most likely a wipe, and the group restarts.
Ah, I hadn't noticed. Thanks for clarifying that. I mostly run these days with my DO DC who uses an augment. Definitely bugs that need to be addressed.
They don't have to be bugs.
I am quite certain that a dev has even popped in to say that the chance of losing combat companions due to these mechanics is not a bug and you may want to choose your companion for those fights accordingly. At least at the turtle. No reason to expect different with other boss fights.
@tom#6998 So, what is the biggest factor now? The meta shifted from crits to power stacking for a reason. Power is plentiful in any high tier dungeon, the new enchants are literally dependent on power, and it's the only uncapped multiplier in the game. It's you who's ignoring the facts, mate. The fact is, something needs to be nerfed. If you nerf the players directly (aka bondings), they'll have issues where they shouldn't have. If you nerf power share, you will no longer see 18 minute TNGs. A top tier dungeon is literally destroyed by a group of relatively competent people.
No one is on a "jihad*" against DCs. You are literally the only person who sees it that way, and doesn't seem to notice that these changes would actually make new DCs much, MUCH better. There's no place for dumb arguments and bias here, mate.
So, basically, if I correctly understand everything about this update, we will have to upgrade our enchants up to 14th lvl, 13th in case of weapon and armor enchants, and we'll just receive similar to current stats, meanwhile spending millions of ads and thousands of Zen? If the bonding runestones are just getting nerf for ~30% and all othe stones gets equal buff to cover that loss? And where here is a new gameplay experience? The new way to upgrade?
That is just a small change, but we'll have to spent a lot of money to get to the exact place where we are now. If the bonds would have changed as promised first in that announcement it would be great for new gaming experience and the use of alternatives. But now it just looks as devs want to suck out our money and give us literally nothing, and everyone's happy with that? It all looks like the bonding nerf was a plan to concentrate the attention on irrelevant issue, while the main purpose was anything but giving us, the player community, anything interesting and conceptually new.
I hope, that everyone would understand and support my idea of banning this "bonding nerf", and to make dev's produce some actual new gaming experience!
You might say it become easier for new players to upgrade. In the mechanics - definitely yes, to r12 enchants. But this will provide them similar gaming experience as if they would have upgraded to r10 now. That is not the purpose of the game, but new playable areas, dungeons, raids, characters and pvp! I would have spent any amount if I would've been given away to increase my power, stats and extend my gameplay experience, but spending thousands to get nowhere? Is that how we should accept what devs through at us?
@tom#6998 So, what is the biggest factor now? The meta shifted from crits to power stacking for a reason. Power is plentiful in any high tier dungeon, the new enchants are literally dependent on power, and it's the only uncapped multiplier in the game. It's you who's ignoring the facts, mate. The fact is, something needs to be nerfed. If you nerf the players directly (aka bondings), they'll have issues where they shouldn't have. If you nerf power share, you will no longer see 18 minute TNGs. A top tier dungeon is literally destroyed by a group of relatively competent people.
No one is on a "jihad*" against DCs. You are literally the only person who sees it that way, and doesn't seem to notice that these changes would actually make new DCs much, MUCH better. There's no place for dumb arguments and bias here, mate.
%dmg buffs contribute alot more to dps then Powershare does. And the meta didnt shift from crits to Powerstacking its critstacking till 100% and then Power. If you feel like smth needs to be nerfed then ok... we have to agree to disagree then. I dont think 17-18 min Tong runs for the top groups are destroying the game. And with this nerf u will hurt the "average" group (which easily takes over 30-40min to finish) alot more then the high end groups.
And u might not be on war with DCs but from what oria is posting usually i cant help but see it this way.
Also im curious why would this make new DCs much better? Cause there will also be only 1 build left for DCs like its with GWFs now. Is it really the goal to narrow each class down so it has only 1 vaiable build?
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
I don't why we are creating a meta argument between ourselves over this DC thing. It's distracting for us who are terrible at math and don't use a DC xD
It's distracting for Devs too, since whatever disagreements we are having with ourselves are not going to be resolved by ourselves, it's probably best to just post our facts and let the Devs get their calculators out when they get back to work Monday.
@tom#6998 % buffs are always gonna be 40%. power based buffs won't. power based buffs increase your DPS on 2 sides. Power buffs your DPS directly, and buffs up your enchants if you're not using a crit sev enchant. And critstacking isn't meta anymore. Powerstacking is. I did a 22 min TNG run and I'm a 14.2k DPS, was only possible because of 2x DC and 1x paladin. I consistently had over 300k power.
It would help new ACDCs a lot because they wouldn't be so base-power dependent. If they don't have a LOT of power, they can't even scratch a DODC in terms of buffs, and if it was a % based buff, it would scale much better for both low and top tier players. If a low tier player gets 20k power in addition to his peak 30k, that's a LOT. If a top tier player gets 20k power in addition to his 70k, that's not nearly as good. That's why a percentage based buff would help - ACDCs could run with top tier players even if they're undergeared, and that would make them as good as DODCs in most situations and better in some, regardless of their item level.
Mind you, if you don't believe me that power contributes more, look for one of my recent calcs. Shows that power increases DPS by much more than a %-based buff.
> @tom#6998 said: > @tom#6998 > So, what is the biggest factor now? The meta shifted from crits to power stacking for a reason. Power is plentiful in any high tier dungeon, the new enchants are literally dependent on power, and it's the only uncapped multiplier in the game. > It's you who's ignoring the facts, mate. The fact is, something needs to be nerfed. If you nerf the players directly (aka bondings), they'll have issues where they shouldn't have. If you nerf power share, you will no longer see 18 minute TNGs. A top tier dungeon is literally destroyed by a group of relatively competent people. > > No one is on a "jihad*" against DCs. You are literally the only person who sees it that way, and doesn't seem to notice that these changes would actually make new DCs much, MUCH better. There's no place for dumb arguments and bias here, mate. > > %dmg buffs contribute alot more to dps then Powershare does. And the meta didnt shift from crits to Powerstacking its critstacking till 100% and then Power. If you feel like smth needs to be nerfed then ok... we have to agree to disagree then. I dont think 17-18 min Tong runs for the top groups are destroying the game. And with this nerf u will hurt the "average" group (which easily takes over 30-40min to finish) alot more then the high end groups. > > And u might not be on war with DCs but from what oria is posting usually i cant help but see it this way. > > Also im curious why would this make new DCs much better? Cause there will also be only 1 build left for DCs like its with GWFs now. Is it really the goal to narrow each class down so it has only 1 vaiable build?
let's put it this way I'm a bis gwf, my ibs hits for 1.5 mill when running solo with bondings proced and self buffs up
but when i run fbi with 2×dc and a pally my ibs hits for between 35 to 40 mill so if bondings were over powered why am i only hitting ibs for 1.5 mill when running solo yet with a power share group i can hit 30 times harder and hit for 35 mill upwards?
sharp alrdy posted facts... u were ignoring them...
u really think the Powershare is breaking the game? Power is 1 factor for dps and its by far not the biggest. And nerfing Powershare makes it an issue for Classes that use that no point in denying. Do u think that players are way to OP for the newest dungeon? If you have a very good group u can run it pretty fast but nothing i would call worthy of beeing nerfed. I dont see the need for nerfs here. And i doubt the devs do... they are selling us back what the take away now thats a decision based on Money.
If you want the bonding nerf to be reverted then suggest that but leave the other stuff.
As i see it u are just on your djihad against DCs again. Maybe u are just proposing this so u dont have to make fake arguments for your mof anymore?
Keep becoming personal, when arguments run out its the only resort.
I stated something specific and you keep answering with something general about the powershare and trying to make me look like I talk about the Dc or I hate DC while you cant stop mentioned it. If at the end they will do something to the AC it will be on you not me.
All that everyone can see is that while I never mentioned what a DC or the powershare as concept, can or cant do you keep bring it up and every time you will get the same answer. I'm not talking about the DC as a class.
When you overcome your obsession with the DC please read the following.
The whole story here, started because devs diagnosed a huge power creep in the game. Not all but a big number of people were doing the dungeons (as you demonstrated too) in lightning fast speeds. Ok so far? This is something that you made sure the devs know too as well as other players, not me.
Power is 1 factor for dps and its by far not the biggest
If you look back I already said it that we have several sources of damage but you always rushing to prove how right you are didnt bother to spend few min to look at what is being said: Here is the copy of what I said.
1st You allow the power not to have diminishing returns (not judging if its right or wrong just stating a fact) 2nd You allow the powershare to give its benefits X4 extra times through the companion 3rd You set Bonding stones too high as a % since mod 6 (maybe) 4th Buffs having multiplicative nature between them (each skill and from each class multiply with each other) so when we stack buff classes, the numbers increase exponentially
Now that we know the sources we need to see which is the major one, in order of effect and also keeping in mind the mid range and lower range groups. For that reason, power not having diminishing returns can stay since we can just eliminate the getting the power from other sources easier. Buffs having multiplicative nature is helpful in all groups (low end, mid end , high end) because those are player / class based and can develop play style and synergy / strategy with other classes. So we are left with two.
As you see, not reading the original posts can lead to you looking like a guy that is... assuming. So tom tell me, do you want the buffs to lose multiplicative nature so all the players will have issues and problems playing the game? Do you want diminishing returns to power? do you know any OTHER major sources of damage that haven't being nerfed already in the sake of power creep?
Based on logic we will try to fix the problem by eliminating or adjusting the major source of power creep. Which is? 1. bonding stone now (on new mod) offering almost half the stat points (17842) so a loss of 13k points. Even less if we calculate that we will also have r14 on our gears so the neat loss will be from 2300 points to 945 points depending on what gears you use on companion. 2. Powesharing through companion using bonding that can give anything from +35k extra stat points to all the way to 130k stat points (if not more) when you stack classes. I can show you screenshots if need be, with a dps being able to go at MAX 315k power with average being at 190k-250k power.
Which one do you think its fair for ALL the player base to change in order to reduce the power creep
1. A bonding that gives, from 30k stats now and 17k points as is, with rank 12,in the new mod and leads to no change for the actual problem of the power creep that exists as players still getting 200k+ power
2. THE PORTION of powershare that can give from 35.000 extra start point all the way to 130.000 stat points when you stack classes.
Also please note here and so to save you from repeating yourself again, I mentioned the effect of the powershare on BONDING only. Also I suggested to buff the AC / pally powershare to direct affect ONLY the player and with the appropriate amount up to the point the devs feel it doesn't cause power creep problems in the near future (and make you post things like this "considering that in FBI u kill the boss in 5 seconds" )
Now without jihads and other stupid things, bring your facts and state clear your opinion (and not just "as i wrote above i dont see a issue with bondings or powershare") If you don't see an issue then you maybe have an issue.
...unless you want to make the devs check the other sources of damage too....then AC wont be the only problem
5
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited September 2017
I find it really funny that some of you think removal of power sharing is somehow can to be a magic fix to the game.
Can we stick to the issue of the company ripping away a % of power and reselling it to us, for power we already bought.. its crazy.
Comments
its very simple to me.. we already paid for the power and they want to resell it to me. RESLLING the same power and the same enchants!!!!
thats mther effing insulting.
that is the single issue im taking on this.
If they want to lower cap or add more diminishing returns. then they can solve thier power creep WITHOUT nerfing and reselling me the same effing powers
they should also lower mob hps by like 50% after that sort of stuff though.
There is no real quick fix here.. none, it will take a rescope of the game..
but again.. THIS is little to do with this.. they say it is.. but to me, it doesnt, they simple want to make us pay money to them for the same thing they just sold us..
You managed to turn this into a nerf AC problem while this is nothing remotely close to it and since I know you are a smart person that can only mean that you want to push your agenda (remember that?) without focusing on the subject in hand. Lets not derail the conversation anymore for your personal issues.
No one asked for nerf on AC quite the opposite we asked to adjust the companion not to receive the powershare buff and cast it to the players X 4 times and also compensate the AC but to the point it doesn't create the power creep anymore. Pure and simple.
We asked to keep the bonding as it is. The reason that the powershare is good is because its good to have powershare.... nice reasoning. This is an example of what I keep saying. I'm talking about the effect on the companion ONLY vs the lowering the stats and that at the end, lowering the stats will lead to nothing and your answer is about the powershare in general and how good it is.
So if powershare through companion its balanced you are saying that bonding is imbalanced? The stone that can give on its own 30k stat points vs a buff that can give 60k or more points?
No one said its BAD, we are saying don't share through the companion to give excessive amounts to the players SPECIALLY when 2 classes can share at the same time, which is one of the reasons it led us here in the first place.
Now please tell us how the AC will have issues again in a bonding thread.
And about pushing Agendas your the one to talk...
Looking at the current Content neither Bondings nor Powershare are OP. Cryptic just wants us to Spend more Money/AD and thus they nerf Bondings and not Powershare.
When Volkswagen got caught up in their diesel emmissions scandal they patched the engine software to eliminate the cheating code. Testing by a third party showed that mpg on one model dropped from 50 mpg to 47 mpg. People who bought a 50mpg car had it "nerfed" to a 47mpg car. Now that is only a 6% reduction, seems minor right? But that is not something you can get away with without compensating your customers in the real world.
People go on and on about how this is how MMO's work. I don't know, this is the only one I have played. But I have been told that many big MMO's don't have the micro(or macro) transactions this game has to buy improvements for you character. If you are going to charge people money for something you have a responsibility not to diminish the value of their purchases.
There probably isn't much we can do about it other than learn from our mistakes and refuse to spend money when the developer has no respect for our investment.
I said buff to the appropriate level that the devs think it doesn't create excessive power. So as you see I have no agenda and it would be better to direct that one to the ones who proposed that.
I never said anything about the DC nor for the Paladin. I just mentioned the powershare that goes THROUGH the companion to the player and compared ONLY that portion of powershare as stat contribution versus to the bonding stone stat contribution.You guys keep throwing numbers about the DC which has nothing to do with the topic.
I hope you see it now.
And it's not just about can you do the content.
A lot of us play this game to compare incremental upgrades, to compare our performance against ourselves so we can see progress in the game. I compare how long river district dailies took me on my 2700 ilvl pally and DC when I started it to my 14500 pally and DC and I am happy with the progress. Now if they reset that in a few months, I already know how much damage I'll be able to do when I get back to where I'm currently at. It will also cost me millions of AD to get back to this baseline, so I say no thanks. If this change goes through I don't think I'll participate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y00WBdspclY
@billyriz12
Augments will NEVER be equal to bondings, as long as they don't get affected by power share.
I'm not sure what you think a moderator is. I'm a player that has been with the game since open beta. I have as much right to express my opinion as any other player. Moderators are not employees of PWE or Cryptic.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
I would like please we devoted players dont loose the perspective on this matter.
Please realise power share is just fine and in line with what other buffers can bring to the party; an AC or OP buffing by power share (and other buffs) are in like to what can bring a DO or a Mof , specially since they remove the debuff cap. Nerf the power share and a good team still will achieve similar results with 1 DO +1 Mof + 2x tanks x dps.
Please dont fall in that trap and spend so many posts with that.
The real and simple issue here is that by nerfing bondings they are forcing all of us to spend more money. It is an easy solution to force all 90% of current users to look into our pocket without any investment on their side. Its a clear WIN-LOSE deal.
I dont think bondings introduction as it is now was a great idea. But that fact now is it really doenst matter, after 5 mods adjusted to current bonding performance, all players (but real newbs) fully rely on bondings to have fun on this game, thats out of question.
Making new content a lot harder, then increase bondings ranks and enchants. Then boost augment if you cought*really care*cough about lower level players. Make a WIN-WIN deal.
Nothing else really matters...
> u can talk all u want to take away powershare on pets is a Nerf to ACDC. If you cap debuffs at 150% act effectivness that would also kill of mof debuffers maybe u understand it now
No, he doesn't. I've said this a lot of times too and I don't really give a damn which kind of DCs exist and don't exist, just like you don't care about sentinel path for gwfs or whatever. ANYWAYS, what he's trying to imply is that an alteration between interactions of the ACDC's powers and players and the players' companions. If you can't comprehend that... well that's not anyone's issue.
Besides, powershare is overpowered. I explained why. It ain't my problem that you have decided to not read or watch any of the stuff I posted.
Changing a buff from % of DC's power to a straight % of the player's DPS is not a nerf. ACDC with 45k power gives a LOT of power even on its own, let alone if there's another DC or pally with Aura gifts. Getting bonus power is stupidly overpowered because it increases our DPS on 2 points - our normal weapon damage + power + other multis, and the additional hit from the enchants that scale with power. So a 40% increase in weapon damage via power also increases our damage via enchant, while a straight 40% buff to damage affects only the normal hit and not the additional one. So you don't get the extreme 1m hits with GWF or 1m ticks with HR.
@ashworthrd99
As i've explained above, making it a straight buff, instead of a power buff would make much more sense. It would make dungeons legitimately hard as you don't get the increased healing, damage and weapon damage because you have less power. While with a straight buff like what ITF does would work much better (as in, it wouldn't be stupidly overpowered)
The personal attacks though from you your friends and the avoidance of talking about the issues in hand, juts proves to me and people here about where the real problem is and what your real worrying is all about.
Thank you for clarifying that.
If they are to remove something its a lot better to remove the PORTION of power share to companion as it can get in cases stupidly high and make the AC / PALLY buff straight to player as power or as damage buff.... how much? as much as it needs to avoid having power creep (according to the devs) again. No one is saying nerf the DC or nerf the pally. Even at a personal role as a MoF debuffer or GWF or SW I can't function without buffs.
If they do that then there is a good reason to keep the bonding as it is and a win - win situation for most players as they get to keep bonding and for cryptic that will get the power creep toned down.
the only thing u might get is that they nerf bondings and powershare... i guess u are happy then?
What they are doing today has nothing to do with balancing. It's just a money-grab where they tell us they want us to improve our enchants just to get to where we already are now.
This change is definitely worse than mod6. Mod6 at least tried to look at what the real issue was (lifesteal making DPS immortal) and nerfed it, while at the same time making survival more difficult. The implementation was not good, but at least they tried to assess the real problem.
What they are doing today has nothing to do with balancing. It's just a money-grab where they tell us they want us to improve our enchants just to get to where we already are now. Devs, if you think the power level we have today is too high nerf us, but then don't resell us the same power at the same time. It either is broken or it isn't. What you're telling us is: what you have now is broken, but if you hand us over 500 bucks it is not broken anymore....
EDIT: and I'm not against giving you 500 bucks in general, I regularly spend money on this game to support your work and plan to do the same in future if you behave in an honest way...
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Glad to see your knowledge on what the devs want though. As far as me, I saw they did change the time on/off for the bonding and now maybe the will change this. Its their call, not yours.
But since you like to keep repeating yourself lets try one more time:
I'm not trying to turn it to a powershare issue for any class. You keep bringing up about the DC and about nerf etc etc. and therefore you will end up doing of what you accuse me of trying. Self fulfilling prophecy. Or you think because a player said something the devs will do it?
Based though on how much annoyed, you (plural) got for the comment i made one cant help but wonder...
Is the AC so bad that they need a buff to a companion to keep them relevant? And if so what does that say about said buff method?
Instead of focusing to make a cohesive argument to the devs for the benefit of all the players regardless of their tier you complain about the AC because one path of one class is FAR more important then all the other players. Nice way of all of you on showing how you really think.
u really think the Powershare is breaking the game? Power is 1 factor for dps and its by far not the biggest. And nerfing Powershare makes it an issue for Classes that use that no point in denying. Do u think that players are way to OP for the newest dungeon? If you have a very good group u can run it pretty fast but nothing i would call worthy of beeing nerfed. I dont see the need for nerfs here. And i doubt the devs do... they are selling us back what the take away now thats a decision based on Money.
If you want the bonding nerf to be reverted then suggest that but leave the other stuff.
As i see it u are just on your djihad against DCs again. Maybe u are just proposing this so u dont have to make fake arguments for your mof anymore?
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
So, what is the biggest factor now? The meta shifted from crits to power stacking for a reason. Power is plentiful in any high tier dungeon, the new enchants are literally dependent on power, and it's the only uncapped multiplier in the game.
It's you who's ignoring the facts, mate. The fact is, something needs to be nerfed. If you nerf the players directly (aka bondings), they'll have issues where they shouldn't have. If you nerf power share, you will no longer see 18 minute TNGs. A top tier dungeon is literally destroyed by a group of relatively competent people.
No one is on a "jihad*" against DCs. You are literally the only person who sees it that way, and doesn't seem to notice that these changes would actually make new DCs much, MUCH better. There's no place for dumb arguments and bias here, mate.
That is just a small change, but we'll have to spent a lot of money to get to the exact place where we are now. If the bonds would have changed as promised first in that announcement it would be great for new gaming experience and the use of alternatives. But now it just looks as devs want to suck out our money and give us literally nothing, and everyone's happy with that? It all looks like the bonding nerf was a plan to concentrate the attention on irrelevant issue, while the main purpose was anything but giving us, the player community, anything interesting and conceptually new.
I hope, that everyone would understand and support my idea of banning this "bonding nerf", and to make dev's produce some actual new gaming experience!
You might say it become easier for new players to upgrade. In the mechanics - definitely yes, to r12 enchants. But this will provide them similar gaming experience as if they would have upgraded to r10 now. That is not the purpose of the game, but new playable areas, dungeons, raids, characters and pvp! I would have spent any amount if I would've been given away to increase my power, stats and extend my gameplay experience, but spending thousands to get nowhere? Is that how we should accept what devs through at us?
And u might not be on war with DCs but from what oria is posting usually i cant help but see it this way.
Also im curious why would this make new DCs much better? Cause there will also be only 1 build left for DCs like its with GWFs now. Is it really the goal to narrow each class down so it has only 1 vaiable build?
It's distracting for Devs too, since whatever disagreements we are having with ourselves are not going to be resolved by ourselves, it's probably best to just post our facts and let the Devs get their calculators out when they get back to work Monday.
% buffs are always gonna be 40%. power based buffs won't. power based buffs increase your DPS on 2 sides. Power buffs your DPS directly, and buffs up your enchants if you're not using a crit sev enchant. And critstacking isn't meta anymore. Powerstacking is.
I did a 22 min TNG run and I'm a 14.2k DPS, was only possible because of 2x DC and 1x paladin. I consistently had over 300k power.
It would help new ACDCs a lot because they wouldn't be so base-power dependent. If they don't have a LOT of power, they can't even scratch a DODC in terms of buffs, and if it was a % based buff, it would scale much better for both low and top tier players.
If a low tier player gets 20k power in addition to his peak 30k, that's a LOT. If a top tier player gets 20k power in addition to his 70k, that's not nearly as good. That's why a percentage based buff would help - ACDCs could run with top tier players even if they're undergeared, and that would make them as good as DODCs in most situations and better in some, regardless of their item level.
Mind you, if you don't believe me that power contributes more, look for one of my recent calcs. Shows that power increases DPS by much more than a %-based buff.
> @tom#6998
> So, what is the biggest factor now? The meta shifted from crits to power stacking for a reason. Power is plentiful in any high tier dungeon, the new enchants are literally dependent on power, and it's the only uncapped multiplier in the game.
> It's you who's ignoring the facts, mate. The fact is, something needs to be nerfed. If you nerf the players directly (aka bondings), they'll have issues where they shouldn't have. If you nerf power share, you will no longer see 18 minute TNGs. A top tier dungeon is literally destroyed by a group of relatively competent people.
>
> No one is on a "jihad*" against DCs. You are literally the only person who sees it that way, and doesn't seem to notice that these changes would actually make new DCs much, MUCH better. There's no place for dumb arguments and bias here, mate.
>
> %dmg buffs contribute alot more to dps then Powershare does. And the meta didnt shift from crits to Powerstacking its critstacking till 100% and then Power. If you feel like smth needs to be nerfed then ok... we have to agree to disagree then. I dont think 17-18 min Tong runs for the top groups are destroying the game. And with this nerf u will hurt the "average" group (which easily takes over 30-40min to finish) alot more then the high end groups.
>
> And u might not be on war with DCs but from what oria is posting usually i cant help but see it this way.
>
> Also im curious why would this make new DCs much better? Cause there will also be only 1 build left for DCs like its with GWFs now. Is it really the goal to narrow each class down so it has only 1 vaiable build?
let's put it this way I'm a bis gwf, my ibs hits for 1.5 mill when running solo with bondings proced and self buffs up
but when i run fbi with 2×dc and a pally my ibs hits for between 35 to 40 mill so if bondings were over powered why am i only hitting ibs for 1.5 mill when running solo yet with a power share group i can hit 30 times harder and hit for 35 mill upwards?
I stated something specific and you keep answering with something general about the powershare and trying to make me look like I talk about the Dc or I hate DC while you cant stop mentioned it. If at the end they will do something to the AC it will be on you not me.
All that everyone can see is that while I never mentioned what a DC or the powershare as concept, can or cant do you keep bring it up and every time you will get the same answer. I'm not talking about the DC as a class.
When you overcome your obsession with the DC please read the following.
The whole story here, started because devs diagnosed a huge power creep in the game. Not all but a big number of people were doing the dungeons (as you demonstrated too) in lightning fast speeds. Ok so far? This is something that you made sure the devs know too as well as other players, not me. Lets see now on how many points you are wrong. If you look back I already said it that we have several sources of damage but you always rushing to prove how right you are didnt bother to spend few min to look at what is being said: Here is the copy of what I said. As you see, not reading the original posts can lead to you looking like a guy that is... assuming.
So tom tell me, do you want the buffs to lose multiplicative nature so all the players will have issues and problems playing the game?
Do you want diminishing returns to power?
do you know any OTHER major sources of damage that haven't being nerfed already in the sake of power creep?
so we are left with two Which one do you think its fair for ALL the player base to change in order to reduce the power creep
1. A bonding that gives, from 30k stats now and 17k points as is, with rank 12,in the new mod and leads to no change for the actual problem of the power creep that exists as players still getting 200k+ power
2. THE PORTION of powershare that can give from 35.000 extra start point all the way to 130.000 stat points when you stack classes.
Also please note here and so to save you from repeating yourself again, I mentioned the effect of the powershare on BONDING only. Also I suggested to buff the AC / pally powershare to direct affect ONLY the player and with the appropriate amount up to the point the devs feel it doesn't cause power creep problems in the near future (and make you post things like this "considering that in FBI u kill the boss in 5 seconds" )
Now without jihads and other stupid things, bring your facts and state clear your opinion (and not just "as i wrote above i dont see a issue with bondings or powershare") If you don't see an issue then you maybe have an issue.
...unless you want to make the devs check the other sources of damage too....then AC wont be the only problem
Can we stick to the issue of the company ripping away a % of power and reselling it to us, for power we already bought.. its crazy.
That is the only issue we need to discuss.