I love the idea of one click to identify everything in your bag and one click to convert to RP. Huge improvement.
We kill sh*t so we can get sh*t. Right now, there is good sh*t and so-so sh*t. Soon it will be good RPs or so-so RPs. While I know vanilla-ing all the items into flat RPs makes it easier to understand for newbies, it may take the fun out with the flavor. Maybe it will be okay, I'll give it a shot... I might like less brain-drain of constantly looking in my bag to clean it out.
Or it might just be boring.
The new "steady refining" theory may feel more like just steady grind. Click. Spend RP. Blah.
Will there be a transfer mechanic, or is it basically once the RP is broken down into currency, its "bound to character" so to speak? I could see a pure RP container being a good Zen market item, allowing you to feed RP into a container that is auctionable.
Will the Rp value of items that can take RP be the same - IE if I put some RP items into an unbound enchants, move that enchant over to a new toon and then make it RP Currency....will that still work and will that keep the same values as now?
Artifact cost to upgrade was cut down to half the total of before. However, the standard RP value wasn't reduced in that way. That sets it up to be essentially a 2x gain from artifact RP. Artifacts don't breakdown into 5x because in many levels that would have been worth more than the RP put into the item and we didn't want a situation where Artifacts were used as a method of RP farming.
I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding the new artifact refining.
- Refining cost will be the same as of today but halved. - There will be no double refinement event but as cost is halved it is like a permanent double refinement. - They will not give 5x RP so it will cost 5x more RP to level up the artifacts as of today.
So the question about artifacts is how will it compensate that they give 5x less RP when upgrading another artifact? Will artifacts return the same RP as of today? For example, will a level 91 artifact give 472,830 only (47,283 in the new RP metric)?
A similar problem is with artifact equipment. On a fully refined artifact equipment, will we recover 80% of the RP required to maximize the new artifact equipment or 40% only?
I haven't seen if this was answered yet, but would Artifacts still be able to be fed to other Artifacts? This is a pretty significant factor in ranking them up.
Given that all RP is shared, costs are reduced, gemstones can crit when turning into RP, gemstones now double up with the double gems events, and accumulating RP is a bit easier in this new setup, and artifacts have their progression cut in half, artifact leveling shouldn't be particularly worse to level in the new system. But with all new system changes we will be keeping an eye on things as it goes forward.
Costs weren't reduced in proportion to what people actually pay to upgrade their artifacts. Artifacts will cost at a lot more RP than was required prior to the changes, since we always used the feeder method to multiply RP values.
Artifact cost to upgrade was cut down to half the total of before. However, the standard RP value wasn't reduced in that way. That sets it up to be essentially a 2x gain from artifact RP. Artifacts don't breakdown into 5x because in many levels that would have been worth more than the RP put into the item and we didn't want a situation where Artifacts were used as a method of RP farming.
I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding the new artifact refining.
- Refining cost will be the same as of today but halved. - There will be no double refinement event but as cost is halved it is like a permanent double refinement. - They will not give 5x RP so it will cost 5x more RP to level up the artifacts as of today.
So the question about artifacts is how will it compensate that they give 5x less RP when upgrading another artifact? Will artifacts return the same RP as of today? For example, will a level 91 artifact give 472,830 only (47,283 in the new RP metric)?
A similar problem is with artifact equipment. On a fully refined artifact equipment, will we recover 80% of the RP required to maximize the new artifact equipment or 40% only?
It isn't quite that simple because the curve was changed so I will show it in a different way.
Currently on live it costs 2,362,635 RP to get to level 91 on an artifact. The player gets back 472,830 when not matching or 20% of what they spent. To hit 140, it is 10,469,635 RP and non matching it returns 1,570,680 or 15%.
In the new system level 91 costs 95,530 RP to reach. When broken down into RP points it will yield 28,764 or 30% of the value put in. To hit 140 it will cost 499,730 and will break down into 150,024 or 30% of the value. The early tiers return 50% of the value put in, mid tiers 40% and end tiers 30%.
This obviously isn't the 5x matching, but again, that system typically caused a net increase in RP which isn't sustainable in a system with shared RP.
There is a lot of aspects to the system so I would certainly suggest people take a look on Preview at their rates of gains of RP from playing and returns from converting items into RP to get a feel for the length of times for progressing in the system overall.
Artifact cost to upgrade was cut down to half the total of before. However, the standard RP value wasn't reduced in that way. That sets it up to be essentially a 2x gain from artifact RP. Artifacts don't breakdown into 5x because in many levels that would have been worth more than the RP put into the item and we didn't want a situation where Artifacts were used as a method of RP farming.
I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding the new artifact refining.
- Refining cost will be the same as of today but halved. - There will be no double refinement event but as cost is halved it is like a permanent double refinement. - They will not give 5x RP so it will cost 5x more RP to level up the artifacts as of today.
So the question about artifacts is how will it compensate that they give 5x less RP when upgrading another artifact? Will artifacts return the same RP as of today? For example, will a level 91 artifact give 472,830 only (47,283 in the new RP metric)?
A similar problem is with artifact equipment. On a fully refined artifact equipment, will we recover 80% of the RP required to maximize the new artifact equipment or 40% only?
It isn't quite that simple because the curve was changed so I will show it in a different way.
Currently on live it costs 2,362,635 RP to get to level 91 on an artifact. The player gets back 472,830 when not matching or 20% of what they spent. To hit 140, it is 10,469,635 RP and non matching it returns 1,570,680 or 15%.
In the new system level 91 costs 95,530 RP to reach. When broken down into RP points it will yield 28,764 or 30% of the value put in. To hit 140 it will cost 499,730 and will break down into 150,024 or 30% of the value. The early tiers return 50% of the value put in, mid tiers 40% and end tiers 30%.
This obviously isn't the 5x matching, but again, that system typically caused a net increase in RP which isn't sustainable in a system with shared RP.
There is a lot of aspects to the system so I would certainly suggest people take a look on Preview at their rates of gains of RP from playing and returns from converting items into RP to get a feel for the length of times for progressing in the system overall.
Yes, asking for 5x matching bonus for artifacts would be foolish, but why weren't artifacts discounted in cost more? We obviously spend less than the listed amount due to this feeding method existing. This is an increase in the overall cost of refining artifacts. The only exception would be that more types can be used to refine them. I don't think that these extra types make up for the added costs (removal of feeder method). It's not straight up 5x more expensive, since feeders aren't free, but it is more expensive... why?
Artifact cost to upgrade was cut down to half the total of before. However, the standard RP value wasn't reduced in that way. That sets it up to be essentially a 2x gain from artifact RP. Artifacts don't breakdown into 5x because in many levels that would have been worth more than the RP put into the item and we didn't want a situation where Artifacts were used as a method of RP farming.
I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding the new artifact refining.
- Refining cost will be the same as of today but halved. - There will be no double refinement event but as cost is halved it is like a permanent double refinement. - They will not give 5x RP so it will cost 5x more RP to level up the artifacts as of today.
So the question about artifacts is how will it compensate that they give 5x less RP when upgrading another artifact? Will artifacts return the same RP as of today? For example, will a level 91 artifact give 472,830 only (47,283 in the new RP metric)?
A similar problem is with artifact equipment. On a fully refined artifact equipment, will we recover 80% of the RP required to maximize the new artifact equipment or 40% only?
It isn't quite that simple because the curve was changed so I will show it in a different way.
Currently on live it costs 2,362,635 RP to get to level 91 on an artifact. The player gets back 472,830 when not matching or 20% of what they spent. To hit 140, it is 10,469,635 RP and non matching it returns 1,570,680 or 15%.
In the new system level 91 costs 95,530 RP to reach. When broken down into RP points it will yield 28,764 or 30% of the value put in. To hit 140 it will cost 499,730 and will break down into 150,024 or 30% of the value. The early tiers return 50% of the value put in, mid tiers 40% and end tiers 30%.
This obviously isn't the 5x matching, but again, that system typically caused a net increase in RP which isn't sustainable in a system with shared RP.
There is a lot of aspects to the system so I would certainly suggest people take a look on Preview at their rates of gains of RP from playing and returns from converting items into RP to get a feel for the length of times for progressing in the system overall.
Thanks a lot @noworries#8859 , I didn't know that artifacts will have a new curve too and that they will give back more RP (comparing it to non matching as of today).
I do share the view that if artifacts give back in the new system more RP than invested (as it happens today) they will be (ab)used for getting almost infinite RP because the share RP pool.
Thanks again, I'll test it when we get it on Preview
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Artifact cost to upgrade was cut down to half the total of before. However, the standard RP value wasn't reduced in that way. That sets it up to be essentially a 2x gain from artifact RP. Artifacts don't breakdown into 5x because in many levels that would have been worth more than the RP put into the item and we didn't want a situation where Artifacts were used as a method of RP farming.
I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding the new artifact refining.
- Refining cost will be the same as of today but halved. - There will be no double refinement event but as cost is halved it is like a permanent double refinement. - They will not give 5x RP so it will cost 5x more RP to level up the artifacts as of today.
So the question about artifacts is how will it compensate that they give 5x less RP when upgrading another artifact? Will artifacts return the same RP as of today? For example, will a level 91 artifact give 472,830 only (47,283 in the new RP metric)?
A similar problem is with artifact equipment. On a fully refined artifact equipment, will we recover 80% of the RP required to maximize the new artifact equipment or 40% only?
It isn't quite that simple because the curve was changed so I will show it in a different way.
Currently on live it costs 2,362,635 RP to get to level 91 on an artifact. The player gets back 472,830 when not matching or 20% of what they spent. To hit 140, it is 10,469,635 RP and non matching it returns 1,570,680 or 15%.
In the new system level 91 costs 95,530 RP to reach. When broken down into RP points it will yield 28,764 or 30% of the value put in. To hit 140 it will cost 499,730 and will break down into 150,024 or 30% of the value. The early tiers return 50% of the value put in, mid tiers 40% and end tiers 30%.
This obviously isn't the 5x matching, but again, that system typically caused a net increase in RP which isn't sustainable in a system with shared RP.
There is a lot of aspects to the system so I would certainly suggest people take a look on Preview at their rates of gains of RP from playing and returns from converting items into RP to get a feel for the length of times for progressing in the system overall.
Yes, asking for 5x matching bonus for artifacts would be foolish, but why weren't artifacts discounted in cost more? We obviously spend less than the listed amount due to this feeding method existing. This is an increase in the overall cost of refining artifacts. The only exception would be that more types can be used to refine them. I don't think that these extra types make up for the added costs (removal of feeder method). It's not straight up 5x more expensive, since feeders aren't free, but it is more expensive... why?
Janne said about 4x more costly, and I trust her to be accurate.
Edit: I will say, this is one of those things where we're certainly entitled to be unhappy about it (that's just, like, our opinion, man), but if the ability to do this was accelerating our progression way beyond projection because of an unplanned consequence of match bonuses, taking it away is as much a balancing act for player access to power as anything.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I would like to know if when we upgrade artifact equipment and crunch the old item down into RP, are we getting 40% of the investment out of it or 80%? There never were any multiplier more-than-you-put-in tricks for this one, so...?
Artifact cost to upgrade was cut down to half the total of before. However, the standard RP value wasn't reduced in that way. That sets it up to be essentially a 2x gain from artifact RP. Artifacts don't breakdown into 5x because in many levels that would have been worth more than the RP put into the item and we didn't want a situation where Artifacts were used as a method of RP farming.
I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding the new artifact refining.
- Refining cost will be the same as of today but halved. - There will be no double refinement event but as cost is halved it is like a permanent double refinement. - They will not give 5x RP so it will cost 5x more RP to level up the artifacts as of today.
So the question about artifacts is how will it compensate that they give 5x less RP when upgrading another artifact? Will artifacts return the same RP as of today? For example, will a level 91 artifact give 472,830 only (47,283 in the new RP metric)?
A similar problem is with artifact equipment. On a fully refined artifact equipment, will we recover 80% of the RP required to maximize the new artifact equipment or 40% only?
It isn't quite that simple because the curve was changed so I will show it in a different way.
Currently on live it costs 2,362,635 RP to get to level 91 on an artifact. The player gets back 472,830 when not matching or 20% of what they spent. To hit 140, it is 10,469,635 RP and non matching it returns 1,570,680 or 15%.
In the new system level 91 costs 95,530 RP to reach. When broken down into RP points it will yield 28,764 or 30% of the value put in. To hit 140 it will cost 499,730 and will break down into 150,024 or 30% of the value. The early tiers return 50% of the value put in, mid tiers 40% and end tiers 30%.
This obviously isn't the 5x matching, but again, that system typically caused a net increase in RP which isn't sustainable in a system with shared RP.
There is a lot of aspects to the system so I would certainly suggest people take a look on Preview at their rates of gains of RP from playing and returns from converting items into RP to get a feel for the length of times for progressing in the system overall.
Yes, asking for 5x matching bonus for artifacts would be foolish, but why weren't artifacts discounted in cost more? We obviously spend less than the listed amount due to this feeding method existing. This is an increase in the overall cost of refining artifacts. The only exception would be that more types can be used to refine them. I don't think that these extra types make up for the added costs (removal of feeder method). It's not straight up 5x more expensive, since feeders aren't free, but it is more expensive... why?
Janne said about 4x more costly, and I trust her to be accurate.
Edit: I will say, this is one of those things where we're certainly entitled to be unhappy about it (that's just, like, our opinion, man), but if the ability to do this was accelerating our progression way beyond projection because of an unplanned consequence of match bonuses, taking it away is as much a balancing act for player access to power as anything.
Yup, sorry if it came off differently. That's what I was asking. I didn't like the response that sounded like it will cost less or be easier, and then see the math and it looks the exact opposite. If it's an intended nerf, I'm fine with that, if it's intended to stay the same, I am going to scream and shout (figuratively) till someone double checks their math, or explains how mine is wrong.
It's just like the bondings change. If they say it will remain better, but then show math that obviously contradicts everything they just said, I am probably going to ask "how?". It's not like Mirage weapons were supposed to be best in slot, since that's what relic is supposed to be... oh wait. Mirage weapon set making CW lives better since mod 11.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Nah, I was just saying that while you're right that it's not 5x more expensive, a reliable source says about 4x more expensive, which we agree is a lot.
martelis1981Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 121Arc User
edited September 2017
What about the tasks that give RP bags in the profession Leadership? eg. Resonant bag, thaumaturgig bag. Will you replace them with another thing? and will be BoE, BoA or what?
Uh, so if I'm understanding this right, levelling up artifacts (not artifact gear) means that instead of using artifact feeders with a total of around 600k RP points during 2x refinement events, it'll now cost 500k RP?
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
So I been reading through everything here trying to absorb it all and pretty much feeling like my brain is sinking in quicksand. So I'd like to compartmentalize things as best as possible.
Community members...feel free to correct, add in or flame me if Im being too simplistic and missing anything:
So with the changes to bondings - everything I worked for to get all 3 to R12 - representing countless hours and likely millions of AD that I am only now beginning to see returns on - is down the toilet! Whether its 50% uptime or 100% is neither here nor there - under the new system instead of 95% from each (285%) I'll be getting only 55% (165%). So over 40% of my proccd stats are lost that I need to recoup.
How do I recoup these stats?
Oh - the Rank 14 enchantments and getting my bondings up there too?
And refining is going to be a lot easier, right?
Ok - let me take a closer look at that - gonna bullet point this out:
- I can get 10% more from each bonding for a total of 30% since at R14 they will give 65% each (Total 195%).
- I can get 300 more points on a stat going from an R12 to an R14 enchant on my person. Lets say 10 Offense slots all with Azure 12 (just as an example) currently at 700 that will go up to 1000 each at R14 (+3000 Crit).
- BUT - the upgrades will still require Marks of Potency and they are STILL GATED BEHIND RNG CHANCES REQUIRING WARDS.
- From R12 to 13 is 3% chance and R13 to R14 is 1% (welcome to Coal Ward Country).
- So - Im going to need a HAMSTER TONNE of pres and coal wards (13 to be exact).....FOR THIS !?! (See Below)
Currently Companion has 2500 Crit 10 R12 Azures on me at 700 is 7000 Crit Proccd at 285% is 7125 Crit added to what I have Total 14125 Crit
Under New System Companion still with 2500 Crit 10 R14 Azures on me at 1000 is 10000 Crit Proccd at 195% is 4875 added to what I have Total 14875 Crit
- So all those millions of AD/Zen spent on Pres and Coal Wards (after already spending that to get to R12 - less actually since only a few use coal wards for this kind of upgrading) for a paltry 5.3% gain on a stat.
Yeah - Cryptic - we know exactly what your god damn endgame is here!!!!!
Welcome to COALGATE V2 Everyone!!!!!!
Oh - Developers - this change might be more easily absorbed if the RNG chance to upgrade was removed entirely to just a straight upgrade once you get the RP.
That would help reduce this kick in player's nuts to a mere slap in the face (cause you know - any nerf to what people have worked hard on will be taken that way).
Why oh why do I still bother???
Post edited by trieper47#8124 on
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blindfury11Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 52Arc User
Firstly, I would like to applaud the proposed streamlining of the refinement system. This is a much needed move. Secondly, I would like to discuss the proposed changes to Bonding Stones. While the buff amount may need to be modified with the addition of R14 enchants, the addition of a cool down timer to the buff could be a problem. The cool down will change the character of gameplay and make it a choppy, frustrating, and irritating experience. Many players will become so frustrated with the change of game feel that they will leave, or at least feel that their money, time and effort are better focused elsewhere. I propose two options instead of the currently proposed changes to Bonding Stones. 1. Delay the release of R14 Enchants until there is more high difficulty content like Chult that can compensate for the increase in player strength. 2. Or go ahead with the release of R14's, but temporarily reduce the buff percentage of Bondings to compensate until more high end content is available to compensate, then increase the buff value back to normal. Either way the cool down should be avoided as it will be seen as not only a disruption to gameplay, but even as antagonistic to players who have spent a huge amount of money, effort, and time to acquire this equipment and likely engage in mass exodus in response. I have played more online games than I can list, and I have seen this exact issue surface enough times to be able to see it coming. I love NW, and have invested quite a bit of money and sweat into it, and I do not want to see it go through a "Tabula Rasa-like debacle", which I also warned the Dev team was coming, along with many others in the player base. Many players are voicing similar opinions, and I strongly urge you to listen to them and not make this mistake. Thank you for your time.
It isn't quite that simple because the curve was changed so I will show it in a different way.
Currently on live it costs 2,362,635 RP to get to level 91 on an artifact. The player gets back 472,830 when not matching or 20% of what they spent. To hit 140, it is 10,469,635 RP and non matching it returns 1,570,680 or 15%.
In the new system level 91 costs 95,530 RP to reach. When broken down into RP points it will yield 28,764 or 30% of the value put in. To hit 140 it will cost 499,730 and will break down into 150,024 or 30% of the value. The early tiers return 50% of the value put in, mid tiers 40% and end tiers 30%.
This obviously isn't the 5x matching, but again, that system typically caused a net increase in RP which isn't sustainable in a system with shared RP.
There is a lot of aspects to the system so I would certainly suggest people take a look on Preview at their rates of gains of RP from playing and returns from converting items into RP to get a feel for the length of times for progressing in the system overall.
OK, that answers a follow-up question (converting artifacts back into RP), but it raises an eyebrow...
Am I reading this correctly that a level 91 artifact will only require 4% as much RP as today and level 140 only requires 4.7% as much RP?! My gut tells me I must be missing something huge here, cause that's (quite literally) an unbelieveable reduction...
Also, what about Relic Weapons and their unique marks and RP? Will they just be converted into the same system as everything else?
It isn't quite that simple because the curve was changed so I will show it in a different way.
Currently on live it costs 2,362,635 RP to get to level 91 on an artifact. The player gets back 472,830 when not matching or 20% of what they spent. To hit 140, it is 10,469,635 RP and non matching it returns 1,570,680 or 15%.
In the new system level 91 costs 95,530 RP to reach. When broken down into RP points it will yield 28,764 or 30% of the value put in. To hit 140 it will cost 499,730 and will break down into 150,024 or 30% of the value. The early tiers return 50% of the value put in, mid tiers 40% and end tiers 30%.
This obviously isn't the 5x matching, but again, that system typically caused a net increase in RP which isn't sustainable in a system with shared RP.
There is a lot of aspects to the system so I would certainly suggest people take a look on Preview at their rates of gains of RP from playing and returns from converting items into RP to get a feel for the length of times for progressing in the system overall.
OK, that answers a follow-up question (converting artifacts back into RP), but it raises an eyebrow...
Am I reading this correctly that a level 91 artifact will only require 4% as much RP as today and level 140 only requires 4.7% as much RP?! My gut tells me I must be missing something huge here, cause that's (quite literally) an unbelieveable reduction...
Also, what about Relic Weapons and their unique marks and RP? Will they just be converted into the same system as everything else?
the new refining system Rps are worth/ old converted at 1/10 and equipment rps (for simplicity according to the dev) equipment/artifacts tables are adjusted/lowered more accordingly/ arbitrarily . There is a table of all the new rp gems types somewhere ..
the new refining system Rps are worth/ old converted at 1/10 and equipment rps (for simplicity according to the dev) equipment/artifacts tables are adjusted/lowered more accordingly/ arbitrarily . There is a table of all the new rp gems types somewhere ..
I feel like a possible solution without implementing such a drastic change to the refinement process is to fix the current item stacking issue. For me, that solves a lot of the micromanaging issues. Constantly having to stop what I am doing just to tweak and move things around that aren't even at the max capacity drives me crazy.
Marks of power, union, stability, and potency should just be consolidated down to just 1 tier level for upgrading. I did not mind having a different tiers of the ones that give to point gain. Also to say the same thing over again in fixing the item stacking issues, I am sure players can agree that items received from heroics, quests, and dungeon chests should stack in current non-maxed item spaces. I am for removing the need to have the same tier level enchantment to upgrade to the next tier. I would gladly purchase items bags with real currency if I know that I am not wasting my money by still having to stop to manage the same items that aren't stacking with each other.
Another issue I face in my refinement process is hitting "The Rank 9 plateau" via rough astral diamond conversion. I only have one character so only being allowed 36k a day when I currently have over 600k rough astral diamonds doesn't do anything for me. I feel like a Rough AD junky waiting on 5 am just to refine more then still face limited purchase options. Constantly juggling that decision on what to buy and what to upgrade makes refining way longer than what it should be. Even the Wondrous Bizarres Greater and Superior Mark prices are way to extreme with the current conversion ratio. I personally don't want to wait 7 days just to get close to buy an enchant which can go up to the millions in price for its next tier. Even certain lesser tier weapon and armor enchants can easily run over a 100k AD which makes the waiting process even longer. If your like me and still haven't found the one that matches their playstyle, the wait time extends.
Lastly, why does it take 1 freaking million astral diamonds to upgrade a single companion, when there are over 50 to have nickel and dime through? Why is it that we have to waste 27-30k astral diamond or a days RAD conversion on a chance to not get 30 upgrade tokens for the one each player really likes. Like I get torn all the time between a companion that looks great but has undesired active bonus vs one with a great active bonus with undesired looks.. So my active slots are in jeopardy due to cosmetic dilemmas.
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doriangreighMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 707Arc User
I have been playing this game since shortly after release of MOD 2.
There have been refining changes before that brought similar grunts and groans.
I will play a little devil's advocate here.
First off if what is said really is true I can say that mostly I think the changes are going in a good direction. I have disliked RP since the first artifact weapons, you spend more time dumping garbage into gear than you do playing the game which IS the biggest frustration.
I agree that the x2 RP events really just turned the game into hoard everything until the x2 event because otherwise you were "losing/wasting" RP. This aspect does not bother me and rather welcome it.
However I do disagree with having so many varying degrees of new RP I think it would have been better served to at the least consolidate everything into gear refining, enchant refining, and artifact refining and just had 3 basic forms perhaps with no more than 3 - 5 tiers of values in each. Then just raise the stack cap to 999 and leave it at at that.
One problem with the current system was with the ridiculous amounts of unbound, BtA, BtC RP and then the varying degrees of value in between of each. Which is funny because the first major update to refining back in like MOD 1 i believe, the Devs said that they recognized the issues with bag space and having to carry around so many enchants which led to the current refinging system, then this system turned into a nightmare of BtA, BtC, unbound craziness of so many different things to carry it was terrible. I have probably close to have the most bag space you can have since i have a relic bag, two dragon hoards some of the bigger starting bags and a greater bag of holding and I constantly found me having to throw stuff away because i can't pick any more stuff up. Keep in mind you have sooooo many types of fish to exchange for keys in somi, you have at least 3 spaces taken up for ostorian relics (4 if you use a spade), 1 - 2 for treasure maps. Then for RD you have a min of 3 spaces for resources collected, 3 more spaces for freaking maps to unlock specific types of digsites, and then several more spaces for treasure maps that are almost not even worth collecting in fact are NOT worth it at all once you have even gotten part way through the campaign. Now in Chult you have lures and mats for lures, more fish (albeit fewer variety this time). I mean seriously you cannot play this game at present and NOT buy bags and even when you do you are still full of space and spend more time inventory managing than playing or dying as mobs respawn while you sort your bag space to make room for something you want to pick up but don't have space for.
NOT to mention to add to everything so many of your quests stick something in your inventory. I'm sorry Devs but i think it is irresponsible and wrong for you to make mandatory quest items takes up space in our inventory. Just like the useful items bag tab ALL quest related items need to go there. I cannot tell you how many times I have gone into overflow because i picked up some quests that pushed me over bag space limits and didn't realize it until i started picking something up or turned in other quests and found myself having to again sort my bags so i can turn in quests that are taking up bag space.
My main concern with the currency conversion is an unreasonable cap on how much you can hold ergo forcing players to spend or be unable to get more and potentially making bad decisions in haste to get under the cap.
So unless I missed it no one has mentioned what is the currency cap going to be? Right now i think some of the currency caps are too unforgiving to players.
As to everyone with bondings i mostly welcome the change. This is no different than back in Mod 2 and 3 everyone discriminating against players who did not get an augment companion off the zen market. Personally i think everyone that jumped on that band wagon is just as much to blame as the devs are for allowing it for so long.
IMO enchants and runestones are supposed to give you an edge not flat out make the game where you can solo epic tier dungeons. They should make general play easier. Everyone is addicted to button mashing, ignoring game mechanics and worst of all, if a dungeon takes more than 10 - 20 min everyone whines about wasting there time.
Now to the Devs, if you are going to make dungeons take an hour to complete with mechanics and team coordination you NEED to increase the rewards you are giving, YES i am talking about things like MSP where you bust your hump with maybe not the most ideal or highest gear group, work the mechanics take it slow and win and then get a R5 enchant and some misc junk as your reward.
There needs to be guaranteed useful gear drops for each boss and not just the chest at the end. I'm not sure why this game broke away from progressive gearing where certain bosses dropped specific pieces or random lower tier pieces but defeating a boss and seeing NO drop what so ever feels like a slap in the face to your players. The changes to RP make it seem like a good start to make the loot tables in dungeons at least give you RP if you are not getting gear pieces.
So if you are in the mood for making changes how about taking a look at the reward vs. time spent in a dungeon or maybe bring back dungeon hours where you might instead of getting AD get an increased chance at better loot.
Back to bondings, I do not feel the changes do not make bondings that bad, again players being a little too spoiled on ignoring everything and just standing there doling out damage and not having to move much. I do like the fact that empowered runestones might make my tanky companion not get one shotted as soon as combat starts, that would be nice to see. The 50% uptime on bondings doesn't seem that bad if it is CD related as if it works like the underdark rings, most fights will be over before you need them to proc again anyway and in boss fights the 50% up-time i doubt will be that noticeable if you are having to move around and not just stand there button mashing.
I would like to know more about how RP and leadership, dragon hoards, and in particular TYMORA enchants will work. I still have my Tymora's in the hopes that changes would make it useful and sounds like maybe that is happening.
If the current enchants end up dropping 10 RP value items 90% of the time then i'm gonna disagree with those changes, if they will be comparable to what they do now then i'm all for the added chances of gaining more RP.
Refining artifacts has always been a huge issue, i've never been one to have been maxed out, i've always been behind until recently. Feeding artifacts is currently the only reason i've been able to get mythic level artifacts on any characters. If refining is easier then I will not miss this or x2 RP and my only concern may very well be what to do with my new found bag space.
I really think on face value these changes do feel like a solid move in the right direction.
I think the Devs need to put more thought into what items they are making available to players in future and stop putting items in the game that cause your elitist player base to discriminate against other players who do no have those same items. I personally would have never made a bonding stone 3 times more useful than an augment pet. They should have always been 1 stone could proc and give a benefit they should have never been all 3 stone proc to enhance stats. I think the current changes make them a good solid way to make someone choose which is better, runestones or bondings. You can get 100% uptime with lesser stat boost or you can get 50% up time with about a 200% stat boost. Honestly that seems to be one of the more balanced changes I have seen yet. This takes us back to the age old choice of do you go steady damage or high burst?
Please show on the UI how much what you are breaking down is worth in RP. Currently I don't know how much "salvaging" my artifact will be worth until I click to do it.
Comments
We kill sh*t so we can get sh*t. Right now, there is good sh*t and so-so sh*t. Soon it will be good RPs or so-so RPs. While I know vanilla-ing all the items into flat RPs makes it easier to understand for newbies, it may take the fun out with the flavor. Maybe it will be okay, I'll give it a shot... I might like less brain-drain of constantly looking in my bag to clean it out.
Or it might just be boring.
The new "steady refining" theory may feel more like just steady grind. Click. Spend RP. Blah.
Will the Rp value of items that can take RP be the same - IE if I put some RP items into an unbound enchants, move that enchant over to a new toon and then make it RP Currency....will that still work and will that keep the same values as now?
I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding the new artifact refining.
- Refining cost will be the same as of today but halved.
- There will be no double refinement event but as cost is halved it is like a permanent double refinement.
- They will not give 5x RP so it will cost 5x more RP to level up the artifacts as of today.
So the question about artifacts is how will it compensate that they give 5x less RP when upgrading another artifact? Will artifacts return the same RP as of today? For example, will a level 91 artifact give 472,830 only (47,283 in the new RP metric)?
A similar problem is with artifact equipment. On a fully refined artifact equipment, will we recover 80% of the RP required to maximize the new artifact equipment or 40% only?
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Currently on live it costs 2,362,635 RP to get to level 91 on an artifact. The player gets back 472,830 when not matching or 20% of what they spent. To hit 140, it is 10,469,635 RP and non matching it returns 1,570,680 or 15%.
In the new system level 91 costs 95,530 RP to reach. When broken down into RP points it will yield 28,764 or 30% of the value put in. To hit 140 it will cost 499,730 and will break down into 150,024 or 30% of the value. The early tiers return 50% of the value put in, mid tiers 40% and end tiers 30%.
This obviously isn't the 5x matching, but again, that system typically caused a net increase in RP which isn't sustainable in a system with shared RP.
There is a lot of aspects to the system so I would certainly suggest people take a look on Preview at their rates of gains of RP from playing and returns from converting items into RP to get a feel for the length of times for progressing in the system overall.
Hi,
Thanks for all the descriptions, and happy to see old runestones and enchants comeback
I have just one question:
What happen with thaumaturge stones? They stay like they are or replaced by something else?
Thx for your feedback,
Brew.
Eleonore - CW Mof Renegade 17.5k
Harlgard le Vieux - OP Prot 18.3k
Valrik - DC AC 18.2k
Furiela - SW Temp 18.1k
This is 12b.
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Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
I do share the view that if artifacts give back in the new system more RP than invested (as it happens today) they will be (ab)used for getting almost infinite RP because the share RP pool.
Thanks again, I'll test it when we get it on Preview
Edit: I will say, this is one of those things where we're certainly entitled to be unhappy about it (that's just, like, our opinion, man), but if the ability to do this was accelerating our progression way beyond projection because of an unplanned consequence of match bonuses, taking it away is as much a balancing act for player access to power as anything.
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It's just like the bondings change. If they say it will remain better, but then show math that obviously contradicts everything they just said, I am probably going to ask "how?". It's not like Mirage weapons were supposed to be best in slot, since that's what relic is supposed to be... oh wait. Mirage weapon set making CW lives better since mod 11.
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EDIT: Nevermind, i didn't read an earlier post.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Community members...feel free to correct, add in or flame me if Im being too simplistic and missing anything:
So with the changes to bondings - everything I worked for to get all 3 to R12 - representing countless hours and likely millions of AD that I am only now beginning to see returns on - is down the toilet! Whether its 50% uptime or 100% is neither here nor there - under the new system instead of 95% from each (285%) I'll be getting only 55% (165%). So over 40% of my proccd stats are lost that I need to recoup.
How do I recoup these stats?
Oh - the Rank 14 enchantments and getting my bondings up there too?
And refining is going to be a lot easier, right?
Ok - let me take a closer look at that - gonna bullet point this out:
- I can get 10% more from each bonding for a total of 30% since at R14 they will give 65% each (Total 195%).
- I can get 300 more points on a stat going from an R12 to an R14 enchant on my person. Lets say 10 Offense slots all with Azure 12 (just as an example) currently at 700 that will go up to 1000 each at R14 (+3000 Crit).
- BUT - the upgrades will still require Marks of Potency and they are STILL GATED BEHIND RNG CHANCES REQUIRING WARDS.
- From R12 to 13 is 3% chance and R13 to R14 is 1% (welcome to Coal Ward Country).
- So - Im going to need a HAMSTER TONNE of pres and coal wards (13 to be exact).....FOR THIS !?! (See Below)
Currently Companion has 2500 Crit
10 R12 Azures on me at 700 is 7000 Crit
Proccd at 285% is 7125 Crit added to what I have
Total 14125 Crit
Under New System Companion still with 2500 Crit
10 R14 Azures on me at 1000 is 10000 Crit
Proccd at 195% is 4875 added to what I have
Total 14875 Crit
- So all those millions of AD/Zen spent on Pres and Coal Wards (after already spending that to get to R12 - less actually since only a few use coal wards for this kind of upgrading) for a paltry 5.3% gain on a stat.
Yeah - Cryptic - we know exactly what your god damn endgame is here!!!!!
Welcome to COALGATE V2 Everyone!!!!!!
Oh - Developers - this change might be more easily absorbed if the RNG chance to upgrade was removed entirely to just a straight upgrade once you get the RP.
That would help reduce this kick in player's nuts to a mere slap in the face (cause you know - any nerf to what people have worked hard on will be taken that way).
Why oh why do I still bother???
When you say simlar RP value, do you mean the max value(ex: Green 2500/250) or the minimum amount (ex: Green 500/50)?
Am I reading this correctly that a level 91 artifact will only require 4% as much RP as today and level 140 only requires 4.7% as much RP?! My gut tells me I must be missing something huge here, cause that's (quite literally) an unbelieveable reduction...
Also, what about Relic Weapons and their unique marks and RP? Will they just be converted into the same system as everything else?
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the new refining system Rps are worth/ old converted at 1/10 and equipment rps (for simplicity according to the dev) equipment/artifacts tables are adjusted/lowered more accordingly/ arbitrarily . There is a table of all the new rp gems types somewhere ..
Marks of power, union, stability, and potency should just be consolidated down to just 1 tier level for upgrading. I did not mind having a different tiers of the ones that give to point gain. Also to say the same thing over again in fixing the item stacking issues, I am sure players can agree that items received from heroics, quests, and dungeon chests should stack in current non-maxed item spaces. I am for removing the need to have the same tier level enchantment to upgrade to the next tier. I would gladly purchase items bags with real currency if I know that I am not wasting my money by still having to stop to manage the same items that aren't stacking with each other.
Another issue I face in my refinement process is hitting "The Rank 9 plateau" via rough astral diamond conversion. I only have one character so only being allowed 36k a day when I currently have over 600k rough astral diamonds doesn't do anything for me. I feel like a Rough AD junky waiting on 5 am just to refine more then still face limited purchase options. Constantly juggling that decision on what to buy and what to upgrade makes refining way longer than what it should be. Even the Wondrous Bizarres Greater and Superior Mark prices are way to extreme with the current conversion ratio. I personally don't want to wait 7 days just to get close to buy an enchant which can go up to the millions in price for its next tier. Even certain lesser tier weapon and armor enchants can easily run over a 100k AD which makes the waiting process even longer. If your like me and still haven't found the one that matches their playstyle, the wait time extends.
Lastly, why does it take 1 freaking million astral diamonds to upgrade a single companion, when there are over 50 to have nickel and dime through? Why is it that we have to waste 27-30k astral diamond or a days RAD conversion on a chance to not get 30 upgrade tokens for the one each player really likes. Like I get torn all the time between a companion that looks great but has undesired active bonus vs one with a great active bonus with undesired looks.. So my active slots are in jeopardy due to cosmetic dilemmas.
There have been refining changes before that brought similar grunts and groans.
I will play a little devil's advocate here.
First off if what is said really is true I can say that mostly I think the changes are going in a good direction. I have disliked RP since the first artifact weapons, you spend more time dumping garbage into gear than you do playing the game which IS the biggest frustration.
I agree that the x2 RP events really just turned the game into hoard everything until the x2 event because otherwise you were "losing/wasting" RP. This aspect does not bother me and rather welcome it.
However I do disagree with having so many varying degrees of new RP I think it would have been better served to at the least consolidate everything into gear refining, enchant refining, and artifact refining and just had 3 basic forms perhaps with no more than 3 - 5 tiers of values in each. Then just raise the stack cap to 999 and leave it at at that.
One problem with the current system was with the ridiculous amounts of unbound, BtA, BtC RP and then the varying degrees of value in between of each. Which is funny because the first major update to refining back in like MOD 1 i believe, the Devs said that they recognized the issues with bag space and having to carry around so many enchants which led to the current refinging system, then this system turned into a nightmare of BtA, BtC, unbound craziness of so many different things to carry it was terrible. I have probably close to have the most bag space you can have since i have a relic bag, two dragon hoards some of the bigger starting bags and a greater bag of holding and I constantly found me having to throw stuff away because i can't pick any more stuff up. Keep in mind you have sooooo many types of fish to exchange for keys in somi, you have at least 3 spaces taken up for ostorian relics (4 if you use a spade), 1 - 2 for treasure maps. Then for RD you have a min of 3 spaces for resources collected, 3 more spaces for freaking maps to unlock specific types of digsites, and then several more spaces for treasure maps that are almost not even worth collecting in fact are NOT worth it at all once you have even gotten part way through the campaign. Now in Chult you have lures and mats for lures, more fish (albeit fewer variety this time). I mean seriously you cannot play this game at present and NOT buy bags and even when you do you are still full of space and spend more time inventory managing than playing or dying as mobs respawn while you sort your bag space to make room for something you want to pick up but don't have space for.
NOT to mention to add to everything so many of your quests stick something in your inventory. I'm sorry Devs but i think it is irresponsible and wrong for you to make mandatory quest items takes up space in our inventory. Just like the useful items bag tab ALL quest related items need to go there. I cannot tell you how many times I have gone into overflow because i picked up some quests that pushed me over bag space limits and didn't realize it until i started picking something up or turned in other quests and found myself having to again sort my bags so i can turn in quests that are taking up bag space.
My main concern with the currency conversion is an unreasonable cap on how much you can hold ergo forcing players to spend or be unable to get more and potentially making bad decisions in haste to get under the cap.
So unless I missed it no one has mentioned what is the currency cap going to be? Right now i think some of the currency caps are too unforgiving to players.
As to everyone with bondings i mostly welcome the change. This is no different than back in Mod 2 and 3 everyone discriminating against players who did not get an augment companion off the zen market. Personally i think everyone that jumped on that band wagon is just as much to blame as the devs are for allowing it for so long.
IMO enchants and runestones are supposed to give you an edge not flat out make the game where you can solo epic tier dungeons. They should make general play easier. Everyone is addicted to button mashing, ignoring game mechanics and worst of all, if a dungeon takes more than 10 - 20 min everyone whines about wasting there time.
Now to the Devs, if you are going to make dungeons take an hour to complete with mechanics and team coordination you NEED to increase the rewards you are giving, YES i am talking about things like MSP where you bust your hump with maybe not the most ideal or highest gear group, work the mechanics take it slow and win and then get a R5 enchant and some misc junk as your reward.
There needs to be guaranteed useful gear drops for each boss and not just the chest at the end. I'm not sure why this game broke away from progressive gearing where certain bosses dropped specific pieces or random lower tier pieces but defeating a boss and seeing NO drop what so ever feels like a slap in the face to your players. The changes to RP make it seem like a good start to make the loot tables in dungeons at least give you RP if you are not getting gear pieces.
So if you are in the mood for making changes how about taking a look at the reward vs. time spent in a dungeon or maybe bring back dungeon hours where you might instead of getting AD get an increased chance at better loot.
Back to bondings, I do not feel the changes do not make bondings that bad, again players being a little too spoiled on ignoring everything and just standing there doling out damage and not having to move much. I do like the fact that empowered runestones might make my tanky companion not get one shotted as soon as combat starts, that would be nice to see. The 50% uptime on bondings doesn't seem that bad if it is CD related as if it works like the underdark rings, most fights will be over before you need them to proc again anyway and in boss fights the 50% up-time i doubt will be that noticeable if you are having to move around and not just stand there button mashing.
I would like to know more about how RP and leadership, dragon hoards, and in particular TYMORA enchants will work. I still have my Tymora's in the hopes that changes would make it useful and sounds like maybe that is happening.
If the current enchants end up dropping 10 RP value items 90% of the time then i'm gonna disagree with those changes, if they will be comparable to what they do now then i'm all for the added chances of gaining more RP.
Refining artifacts has always been a huge issue, i've never been one to have been maxed out, i've always been behind until recently. Feeding artifacts is currently the only reason i've been able to get mythic level artifacts on any characters. If refining is easier then I will not miss this or x2 RP and my only concern may very well be what to do with my new found bag space.
I really think on face value these changes do feel like a solid move in the right direction.
I think the Devs need to put more thought into what items they are making available to players in future and stop putting items in the game that cause your elitist player base to discriminate against other players who do no have those same items. I personally would have never made a bonding stone 3 times more useful than an augment pet. They should have always been 1 stone could proc and give a benefit they should have never been all 3 stone proc to enhance stats. I think the current changes make them a good solid way to make someone choose which is better, runestones or bondings. You can get 100% uptime with lesser stat boost or you can get 50% up time with about a 200% stat boost. Honestly that seems to be one of the more balanced changes I have seen yet. This takes us back to the age old choice of do you go steady damage or high burst?
Please show on the UI how much what you are breaking down is worth in RP. Currently I don't know how much "salvaging" my artifact will be worth until I click to do it.
EDIT - specifically on this screen
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John