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OverPowered GWF's
lelandhill
Member Posts: 7 Arc User
Am I the only one thats getting a little tired of getting massively out DPS'd by GWF's on all my characters that I've spent alot of time, effort and money on? It's just a little frustrating when my 3.2K HR get's out DPS'd by a 2.4K GWF thats still using his Mulhorand Sword. I have a GWF as well and I enjoy playing him, but it just doesn't seem fair that the character I've spent countless hours on (my HR) is only "on par" with the GWF that I just got to 70 2 weeks ago.
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Its funny if some one tries to compare 2 complete different classes.
But i try it serious:
What kind of HR do you play?
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
There are some HRs in my Guild that always score massive DPS when we're in dungeons... but, most importantly, they have other feats and skills that make for quicker runs.
Someone has to be tops at DPS. Sorry it's not HR. But, I love having a skilled HR in the party.. it makes my job just that much easier.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
But, of course, you're right. I'm wrong.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
Look at your average PuG epic demigorgon run. Many times, you will have one or two BIS or near to BIS GWFs on top of paingiver list. Is it a sure triple gold win, no.
Now take a group with a perma bubble OP, tanking averything and a rightous DC. If your DDs are not a total waste of IL or aiming for the black circles in the 2nd phase, you are golden.
HR has more group utility, than GWF, so he should have a lower DPS, than the GWF. I play with a 3.5k+ dmg HR. His dps in near to the dps of similar geared GWFs. Without a healer or a dedicated tank the HR can slot fox shift and help his group survive the boss fight. The GWF cant do this.
My rightous DC get outhealed by renegade CWs many times. The 'bubble' OP can carry a bad geared group, the AP DC can make him a perma bubble OP. Switch that combo with ITF GF and rightous DC and you will either fail (with a bad group) or be done with the dungeon in half of the time, due to all the buffs/ debuffs provided.
There are two problems IMO. One is the fixation on paingiver and the other one is balancing personal dps with group utility.
BTW, fastest epic Demo runs I have ever done, ITF GF, HV renegade CW, HP rightous DC, bubble OP and some dps. If you take 10 player+ runs, no damage dealer can contribute more, then a rightous HP DC or a HV renegade CW, due to the fact, that most of the buffs effect all of the players and even a buff of average 30% for 10 players has more effect, then a GWF who does twice the average dmg.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Running in circles around foes and try to make them dizzy and heal the grp. I wonder why they dont read their abilites. Its clear they got tons of CC skills and tons of heal skills. I never understood why they think they are a dps class.
And im talkin about pve. In pvp they are so OP they can kill all players on map. They only have to type in chat "Kill all".
When you see a GWF off-tanking or surviving more it usually involves high gear, with high life steal to sustain. Example: you can see that 4k Lazalia's GWF soloing eCC boss, does it with a different setup with lower DPS, tank enchants and still might die if he just makes 1 mistake.
Compare it to a tank (GF/OP) that can take on red areas with no problem through shield and tanking mechanics that are by far superior to a GWF Unstoppable. A Destroyer is NOT a tank by far.
- If your HR is a trapper then sorry, that is NOT the HDPS tree of rangers. That's the control/ utility tree. So comparing it to a full DPS path is not going to work. You must have a full PvE DPS build to compare.
Now, these things aside, about balancing the class:
- Other non-tank/ non-healing classes, in current builds, bring:
A) 10x more CC compared to a destroyer (trappers and CWs)
Destroyer GWF brings:
A) 2x DPS of other classes.
aaaand...
Period.
Now, if you just "massively nerf" the class and build over your personal paingiver frustrations, you ruin the class.
I understand that, like in the past, many players don't care cause they do not main a GWF. But the class itself brings no utility to a group and also has very bad mechanics that are NOT WANTED in a group.
We already got this discussion with commanderdata and a couple of guys clearly stated that if it wasn't for the very high DPS they bring, they would NEVER invite a GWF in group because the marks sometimes mess up the aggro, for example.
If you make destroyers same DPS as a CW or trapper to make them happy, why would a player bring a GWF to a group? When inviting a CW or a trapper HR, they get same DPS+massive CC?
You can ask for full DPS paths to get closer in DPS to a Destroyer, depending on what else they bring to the party.
If they bring DPS only, like SW Fury hellbringer, for example, then it's normal to ask for that path to deal same damage.
Asking for a CC build to deal the same damage, instead, is wrong.
In my opinion:
HR stormwarden archery tree
CW MoF if the path gets no CC AT ALL.
SW Helbringer Fury
must have same DPS as a Destroyer GWF.
Anything that brings more CC, utility or party buff to the group, must be BELOW.
I think this is pretty standard common sense. With incoming nerf to paladins, CC will be needed again and if a CC class/ build can deal the same DPS, or close, to a Destroyer with 0 CC, the class will be unwanted.
So put your GWF-hatred and bias to the side and instead of shooting "GWF needs massive nerf", try to thing about what can be done to improve balance and what other classes and builds bring to a group.
If you are a trapper then what about thinking: ok, he deals double my DPS but 0 CC, while i lock groups of mobs for several seconds and interrupt them.
Same for CW crowd control. I've yet to see a PvE CW with zero CC like a destroyer. So why should these builds have the same DPS or close, while they output strong CC while a Destroyer brings 0 CC or other utilities to the group?
Assuming that it's a FACT that GWF "secondary tank" or "off-tank" supposed role applies mainly to the useless sentinel (not to the pure DPS Destroyers) and is, plain and simple, not wanted. Cause groups that need a tank ask for a tank. The off-tank gets in the way of the main tank and nothing else, right now.
So if you massively nerf Destro GWFs damage, how do you compensate the lack of any other utility or addition to the group, the path brings? The only thing i can think about is to MASSIVELY buff Battlefury buff (to self and % given to group) to get closer to GFs into the fray. But right now BF buff to group is laughable.
So if you just nerf Destro's DPS, you kick the entire class out of PvE groups. Expecially once the OPs are balanced and new, heavier content comes in module 9.
You must compensate. If you care about balance and are not just after some personal Paingiver fetish.
Oh and I have just 1 point in that feat, forget its name.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I just wish for ONE SINGLE TIME, instead of doing the "easy" thing and nerfing a single class to death, circle around and BUFF other classes. Nobody likes a sniper scope nerf when they are the recipient. Once you bring other classes in line then just modify the content difficulty a little to cope with the overall adjustments.
The problem is "that is a lot of work."
In the end it's a game we all love to play, we've all put time into our characters/alts etc... nerfing one class is not the best answer... bring some other's "UP" just a suggestion.
There is the same difference between a 2.4K GWF and 3K2 trapper HR than between a 2.4 HR trapper and a 3.2K Archery HR.
Trapper IS the damage tree because archery sux now because lostmauth set.
GWF rox because of lostmauth set ( And too HIGH damage on the weapon)
The problem is the lostmauth set.
And the problem won't be solved because of the new mount with the same effect that...lostmauth set....
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Unstoppable does not allow a GWF to tank a T2 dungeon alone.
Try to tank a group of mobs with Unstoppable alone in a T2 and see how much you last.
It's life steal.
Look at unstoppable temp HP. They last SECONDS. And this is a 4k GWF. You want really to compare THAT to a GF shield or a OP, or even empowered AS from DC?
What you see there is that even with current T.Fey AND T.Negation, survivability comes from high lifesteal. Unstoppable just gives some time to make Lifesteal work.
Can a 2k GF properly specced/ played, and a 2k OP or 2k DC, tank a group of mobs in a T2? Yes, they can. I play a 2k tank DC too sometimes. They can.
Now, throw a 2k GWF with low LS or no LS into a group of mobs and look how Unstoppable "tanks" them.
But, also, when players say "massively nerf GWF damage", they never mention that that nerf AKA self-buffs nerfs (since GWF base damage is the lowest), also affects survivability, being:
A - a massive lifesteal nerf since less damage = less life steal (on toons that get enough of it from gear since GWF gets no LS from feats)
B - You mentioned Unstoppable right? Nice. A massive self-buffs nerf will result in...a massive Unstoppable Temp HP huge nerf since they scale with...DAMAGE BONUS.
Why GWF works like this? Cause players whining in module 3 made the devs change the class into a more "proactive" class. Basically the only class that have to "earn" every inch of buffs during the fight.
Unstoppable was "too strong, too passive". Players whining in module 3. So now we have Unstoppable defensive capability directly linked to damage buffs, which are earned "proactively" during the fight and stacked to buff the pityful base damage of GWF powers (try to hit things with an unbuffed GWF and tell me if it hits even remotely as hard as a CW/HR/TR-any other class/ base damage).
I'm sorry to say this but as long as i read uninformed whining over GWF nerf with no COUNTER-BALANCE propositions, and NO MENTION OF THE CONSEQUENCES AND INTERACTIONS ON OTHER ASPECTS OF THE CLASS, i will just take these posts as pure, uninformed rant from Paingiver feticists that know nothing about the class in depth.
You can't really expect to be taken seriously if you tell me "massively nerf GWF damage, they can already tank through unstoppable" without considering the above interactions AND the sinergy between eLoL set and GWF weapon damage and self-buffs (which alone gives the GWF an advantage not due to the class itself, but due to interaction with an OVERPERFORMING ITEM).
Still waiting a serious balance thread about GWFs. All i read around the forum is uninformed whining while ignoring the 30538583494839493 times i mentioned the core mechanics/ real issues/ interactions and consequences of only nerfing GWF damage, and how balance should really be done.
Most players just do not care. It's not their class, they want to top paingiver, so they thow on forums these one-sided suggestions which are just toxic for true class balance.
And i do not want to see another module 4 nerf happening. I already know from Module 4 that whiners do not give a f. if the class gets ruined. When GWFs were overnerfed in module 4 nobody gave a f., after all the "we want balance!!!ONE111!!!" talk during module 3.
Come up with real balance discussions and we will discuss. Not this brainless, uninformed whining.
But he is one of the few classes that can stay in.
BTW i prefer HR cuz they really usful when it comes to buff/and controll then CW's .
Most CW's dont even try to controll mobs they play SW style.
So in many ways its balanced cuz even if you think those GWFs are OverPowered they can only deliver DPS to pt nothing more.
-Lets say a GWF go different path IV (loose half of they dps )
-Lets say a GWF go different tree Instigator (loose much more then Half of they DPS)
-Lets say a GWF go different tree Sentinel then he is usless. (no more dps no more useful to the pt)