fangredwaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15Arc User
Rings of Underdark - Forged in the Fires of Mordor, USA - these rings can give CW 2 things: 1- They can stealth and kill from range 2- They can wear the ring on their 21st finger & have a good time
Seriously, what were the devs thinking when the gave stealth to range-fighters ??? This is why you need to finish school kids.
If the pvp fight requires me to spend something like $2k per month - I am out coz the game is not worth it. Neverwinter as you all know is stale & not fun at all with class bias.
A game is supposed to be fair with chances to win. If a CW can shoot you from range. We need stealth to get to the CW. Any way when near the target WILL SEE us. So, what was the point of the rings??? Sabotage of TRs to give them suicidal handicaps in pvp will lead to mass word of mouth advising rogue players to dump neverwinter.
Tell me what fun you have in this game - - By pressing "K" and queing?? - By pvp damage 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0??
Seriously, how pathetic are the classes to actually require TR specialties like stealth along with their fire power. This is just sad.
In my opinion, if you hate Rogues - please remove the class altogether. Rogue community will move to other games.
Thanks.
0
Options
fangredwaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15Arc User
PS:
Damn Mages !! -.- They are always up to something ...
Rings of Underdark - Forged in the Fires of Mordor, USA - these rings can give CW 2 things: 1- They can stealth and kill from range 2- They can wear the ring on their 21st finger & have a good time
Seriously, what were the devs thinking when the gave stealth to range-fighters ??? This is why you need to finish school kids.
If the pvp fight requires me to spend something like $2k per month - I am out coz the game is not worth it. Neverwinter as you all know is stale & not fun at all with class bias.
A game is supposed to be fair with chances to win. If a CW can shoot you from range. We need stealth to get to the CW. Any way when near the target WILL SEE us. So, what was the point of the rings??? Sabotage of TRs to give them suicidal handicaps in pvp will lead to mass word of mouth advising rogue players to dump neverwinter.
Tell me what fun you have in this game - - By pressing "K" and queing?? - By pvp damage 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0??
Seriously, how pathetic are the classes to actually require TR specialties like stealth along with their fire power. This is just sad.
In my opinion, if you hate Rogues - please remove the class altogether. Rogue community will move to other games.
Thanks.
As I said before, it's very difficult to fight against good CW as TR, now with those rings even the GF can stealth lol. If devs invented stealth rings, why they allowed that players can move under the stealth? Big issue here. CW aren't supposed to go into stealth and kill from range. With Underdark edition this game becoming pap trash with not original ideas and solutions. I never saw in other games so much 0 damage in PVP like in this game. Who invented stamina drain in this game for PVP? The devs only brought us issues with this new edition and before it. Do not get me wrong, this game is the best mmorpg for me with very good potential, but unfortunately this game not going to right direction, I'm afraid that this game does not end like Tera where the old players gave up.
2 seconds every 60 seconds, thats really a big disaster....lol the ring is HAMSTER and I threw it away, thats what we talk about a CW killing from stealth ... so bad the CW, killing from stealth.....
Thats what i say...useless, and not worth to skip stats for it...2seconds every 60 second lol No i try this stealth reveal ring every 20 seconds and hope to get the TR community to get rid of 1button SE builds
the ring of stealth reveal +3 every 20 seconds 15% chance works good and guys just rethink your TR setup this class has by far the most possibilities to adapt in PVP i already met TR that just facetanked me with ease even without ITC the class has 75% deflection severity! take a negation, take deflect up to 50 % and leave that nub oneshooter permastealth path, that is my recommandation ! Since 3 mods I get oneshooted every day and you dare to cry? Its your own fault if you forgot how to play your class running all day easy mode. The player who invest every single point in offence, power ( infight 40k !!), to press one button, have to be punished imo. Every other class has to stack defence deflect, DR, LS , most TR´s forgot for what this is good and cry in forum not even tried to adapt to changes.
I can agree that a TR can adapt, the smart ones. But it's also good to pay attention just which kind of TR you're conversing with just to see who's on whose side. Every serious geared WK TR here knows. I count 2 others apart from morenthar and myself, and we were out buildcrafting megatank scoundrels when it clearly wasn't the <font color=yellow>best build</font> because we wanted options.
There were just 2 builds that were popular and easy, problem not being overpowered, but being <font color=yellow>easy</font>. That doesn't take away from the fact that any good player running with a cheese build, for whatever reason, would still be a good player no matter what build he plays with. Said player would just switch to the next best thing and wreck the hell out of the same group of people and they will complain here on the forum.
Speaking about the forum, it's been really hard lately to separate trolls from serious ones. I've seen at least one tragically undergeared GWF here who talks a lot. Classes need to be balanced around BiS characters, those at least geared 3K+. Whoever hasn't reached that just adds background noise to a discussion, as any value he might provide is more or less likely to be biased around the gear gap.
Hence, my long-standing suggestion to have dual-spec, free-for-all BiS equipment only usable in PvP like in GW2.
As much as a hate repeating myself, I would for your benefit.
Classes need to be balanced around BiS characters, those at least geared 3K+. Whoever hasn't reached that just adds background noise to a discussion, as any value he might provide is more or less likely to be biased around the gear gap.
I didn't name names, and clearly didn't mention the name "clonky" or any connotations thereof, but now that you've raised attention to yourself, let's talk about you. You propose to balance the TR because you've played a 2K TR in blues using Gloaming Cut. You've also, on several occasions, called out Whisperknives, morenthar me and others, for defending sketchy TR powers we didn't even have access to. Enough said.
Like I said before, clearly not everybody on these forums are qualified to suggest class balance to the devs, starting with the presumptious tragically undergeared ones, and that's very likely why threads like these go on for 30+ pages and 2000 replies with not a single word from the devs.
You can't call yourself skilled and 2K and remotely have any idea how you fit into balancing a 4K geared character. I hated that idea for a long time from module 1 to 3, and in fact quit because of it after module 4. But I never occupied a place on these forums back then until I became geared enough. As it stands today, no skill could amount to a 1K iLVL gear gap, there is even a large boundry between characters at 3K full legendary/mythics and 4K full rank 12/legendary/mythics.
I stand firmly that 2K players cannot know how to balance BiS builds since they will get their backs handed to them, regardless if the enemy is overpowered or not.
People like the one in your sig are oddities of nature. It continues to surprise me that they exist. Be careful because you are a stone's throw away from being one, what with your repeatedly quoting that figure of speech, you are proving how tragic you are at the English language... I will use small words from now on.
A 2K player cannot go up against a 4K player, regardless of who between them is skilled or not. We are not discussing physically or mentally impaired players, therefore "skill" is a matter of this guy has been playing for 2 years while the other guy has been playing for 2 weeks.
Balancing around that is plain stupid and wrong. I can say that I plant 10K Disheartening Strike ticks, nothing else, on three 2K pugs at the same time, and they all die in about 15 seconds one right after the other, before I even exit one rotation of stealth. Those 10K ticks will do 1K on a geared player. Get what I'm saying? So tell me, is a 100K Disheartening Strike at-will balanced or not? Or does a 1K DoT tick need to be nerfed to the ground?
Let me give you an insight about reasonable class balance;
I play a WK sab right now, and I rain piercing on my enemies. But by playing Whisperknife I have to do actual stealth management, not burn through my stealth with knives. When I drop out of permastealth by some fatal mistake, I can be CC'd and my some 130K hp bursted down. News flash, Whisperknife does not have ITC. Stealth reveal rings will be a counter to this and similar builds. This to me is balance: cookie cutter, killable.
If I go play WK Scoundrel, I can take on 4 or 5 players of my gear level without ITC or stealth. This is not a free lecture of how--go figure it out. But I wouldn't be able to take down one of them. That's also balance: unkillable, unable to kill.
Lastly, as Executioners are best suited to PvE, I would suggest you back off in that area because PvE TRs are already in a bad place to begin with.
I do exactly know where my class stands, beside some misinformation spreading PVP-guild leader. I got most of this broken HAMSTER with my +/-3k warlock (axebeak, negation 20%, p bronzewood, lolset, SH LS-boon) and its possible to face some geared classes, CW in first line, and pugging you also so good vs other classes...standing beside an OP or capable DC, warlock can really hurt. But beside that the class on his own against skilled player with equal geared classes you do not have best cards, maybe having BIS gear its changing, but from what I saw from BIS warlocks in DOM the class is allways running or at distance or in defence, possibly cause of Avalanche that got fixed. vs TR´s, low to no chance vs GWF (nightmare for the class as long as you can´t pierce their defence having 1 billion Arp) vs Hunter, the skilled disables you....and can selfheal several rotation from a warlock ! vs high arp GF....double mark and you are twoshottet vs DC , no push no ability to burst down
As much as a hate repeating myself, I would for your benefit.
Classes need to be balanced around BiS characters, those at least geared 3K+. Whoever hasn't reached that just adds background noise to a discussion, as any value he might provide is more or less likely to be biased around the gear gap.
I didn't name names, and clearly didn't mention the name "clonky" or any connotations thereof, but now that you've raised attention to yourself, let's talk about you. You propose to balance the TR because you've played a 2K TR in blues using Gloaming Cut. You've also, on several occasions, called out Whisperknives, morenthar me and others, for defending sketchy TR powers we didn't even have access to. Enough said.
Like I said before, clearly not everybody on these forums are qualified to suggest class balance to the devs, starting with the presumptious tragically undergeared ones, and that's very likely why threads like these go on for 30+ pages and 2000 replies with not a single word from the devs.
Have you ever seen devs in pvp? 2k pugs are military genius compared to them.
I know it comes off as harsh, as if to imply non-geared players don't get a say in class balancing. But it's the sad truth. The gear gap is that big.
to about 90% wrong because >90% are not BIS and do PVP (or would take part in PVP) in case there was somthing like brackets or matchmakingsystem that worked and you defeinitely can have an impression about classbalancing at lower level than 4k+ only one example: a 2,5 k OP can troll much better geared player, so imbalanced, same was/is known from TR, Hunter, DC I made a 3,5k Op cry with my 2,4k rightous DC, same I can do to GWF (a)busing BtS all time on him and doing near permadodging , in case I get bored I pop empowered AS a 2,4k GWF with lolset, negation, feytouched can make my far better Warlock cry all day and so on
If i can say...i don't think it's as you say rustlord. Let me explain: you say ONLY BiS players must have a say in class balance. That's not true. Cause iLvL doesn't mean knowledge, nor skill. Many "BiS" players you meet in game are just average players using BiS gear they bought/ farmed, and then followed what their guildies found out testing stuff. Or do you think every BiS player tested himself T.Fey, T.Neg exc...nope. There are BiS players who have skills and test a lot. Those are the one who usually have knowledge and skills. Others, i can tell for sure, are just average or less than average players and just play the class like a 2k pug, but they have BiS gear. I faced a BiS CW that was at 3.8k iLvL at the time (not maxed but very close to BiS) with T.Fey, T.Neg and stuff, on my 2.8k (at the time, i'm close to 3k now) GWF with G.SF and Pure PF (time ago). Result: i killed him, he couldn't even make me soulforge, and i was still at half health. We faced multiple times. He was barely dodging and being very predictable. Whatever was his mistake, what do you think? Is he a reliable source of feedback just because he is "BiS"? Don't make me laugh.
You say players like the one in clonky signature are "oddities". I disagree. There are plenty of geared players that simply use what other discovered to be "BiS". On the other side, there are plenty of non-BiS players who are very knowledgeable and skilled. Example n°2: Ant-Monster (where did he go btw?) was/ is not a BiS GF. But i faced him 1v1 and BiS GFs 1v1 and he was 100x more skilled at keeping his guard with specific movements, where BiS GFs were pretty "regular" and i could get behind them. With Ant, i couldn't. Won't explain in detail what he was doing, but was NOT target lock. It was him using specific movements he practiced and studied, to make it very difficult for the enemy to get behind him.
Example n°3: following BiS CWs/HRs/SWs/GFs/TRs/DCs feedback in module 5, GWF was a monster. Reason: BiS GWFs were 2-shotting enemies with intimidation builds. Those builds worked ONLY at very high iLvL (Power stat threesold). Everything under a certain level of gear was in a mess and the "BiS" build didn't represent AT ALL the real status of the class.
There are also BiS players who don't give a f... about class balance and just want to stomp other players exploiting everything they can. Could name a few. Would you trust their feedback just because they are "BiS". So what you should say is "BiS players, who are skilled and test stuff, and are truly interested in class balance". So, in other words, 0.1% of NW population.
Feedback is needed at any iLvL. You can have good feedback even from less geared players, about how the class is working at that level of gear. And considering 90% of the players are between 2.5k and 3.5k iLvL, i think it's more important to balance classes in that range of gear, and not first going for the BiS level. I understand it's important for BiS PvP guilds cause they live for competitive premades, but BiS competitive domination premadevspremade is a very small, very specialized way to play PvP.
Majority of players are non-BiS and play GG other than Domination. And if fixed, SH siege too.
Every feedback is valuable, if given with knowledge and real good intentions behind.
To be perfectly clear, BiS in my book is really a broad spectrum. This is not necessarily going to be measured by the iLvl. You said as much, though in different ways. Best in Slot could just be the most powerful build, with the most synergistic enchantments, and a certain combination of gear. Things like the Lostmauth set, Mythic Sigil of Devoted, Flail Snail, Axebeak, and Transcendent levels of Negation, Feytouched, Elven Battle, Soulforged or any viable enchantments.
Your typical enchantments, armor kits and mythic artifacts all add stats, just as well as guild boons do-- and guild boons don't give iLvl. Look at a 16K HP guild boon, isn't that almost the equivalent of 5x Radiant Rank 12, which easily equates to some 400 iLvl. I am around the 3.5K before my Lionsmane set which I am still yet to re-kit, with only Rank 10s, Transcendents and Mythics, but I might as well have been 4K if we consider guild boons. And already 4K players might as well have been 5K.
Even if I'm firmly stating that players below a certain gear range are unfit to question balance, I am on the side of those players. If you continue to balance classes on the performance of 2K characters without studying how exponentially stronger these classes will get when they reach 3.5K, you are not doing the undergeared players any favor. If anything, you are handing them as free kills to any (1 out of 10) BiS player just passing by.
Clonkyo says my point is nonsense, but he continues to just paraphrase me anyway...
With all these being said, I reiterate that class balancing must be done starting from the highest level, then down. Factors being;
1. How hard should the hardest Shocking Execution hit? Is it doing 140K damage at highest echelons of PvP? Should we tone this down to 80K, which gradually decreases further the lower the iLvl gets. 2. How many players does it take to bring down a 4K Outhbound Paladin? Are 5 striker class able to kill him it in a 5v1? That seems too much, let's assume it should be 3v1 at the most extreme cases, and after that the OP should become less survivable as his iLvl goes down. 3. How LONG is the longest possible UNINTERRUPTED stealth rotation of a permastealth TR? 60 secconds, 100 seconds, 300 seconds? Should we just cap this to a fair expected number, so that non-permastealth build TRs would not be able to output the highest damage and stay in stealth indefinitely, and just as easily as fully spec defensive builds. 4. How LONG can the best geared HR root, daze and immobilize a player? Yes, let's make it possible for the best-geared ones to permacontrol targets, but decrease that potential as their gear level goes down. 5. How powerful could a GWF with full stacks of everything get? This was obviously not considered by the devs when they gave you all buffs on earth. Should we perhaps estimate the maximum damage output GWFs do, tone it down to acceptable levels, and compensate the class with an overall better mechanic in terms of dodging, reliably landing encounters and such. 6. This also applies to PvE as well... Why does a dragon have to hit for 5 million damage? Can we assume that players do not have 5 million HP, and tone down that damage a lot, so every hit is not a one hit to lesser geared players.
My point is that, if it's not yet clear. If the devs start to balance the classes around the best gear, highest level enchantments, artifacts and builds, they would get a clear picture of the most extreme situations. Won't you be all happier if a permastealth TR didn't one shot you with SE? If a maxed AP gain DC and OP didn't affect each other so much that the entire party is immortal? That the BiS GF did not one rotation your GWF when you didn't have your full stacks on?
If you want to adopt a baby raptor, you also have to make sure that that little thing is not going to grow into a T-REX to eat your whole neighborhood. Last module, the devs made you those baby raptors, and now, a few have grown and they are causing masss genocide in PvP.
Example n°3: following BiS CWs/HRs/SWs/GFs/TRs/DCs feedback in module 5, GWF was a monster. Reason: BiS GWFs were 2-shotting enemies with intimidation builds. Those builds worked ONLY at very high iLvL (Power stat threesold). ~ Feedback is needed at any iLvL. You can have good feedback even from less geared players, about how the class is working at that level of gear. ~ Every feedback is valuable, if given with knowledge and real good intentions behind.
These things represent my point vividly. You cannot appreciate a player of another class proposing a blanket nerf to the GWF, just because a certain maxed-out build was able to do this and that. If devs had foreknowledge of how that specific BiS GWF 2-shotter would be, it should never have seen the light of day.
That is my exact sentiment when clonkyo (much earlier) uses his 2K TR to demonstrate how a TR performed. He had never been on the giving end of a 200K Shocking Execution (something I have proven possible at the most extreme conditions in my experience being a long time TR player). I can't trust that he even knows the core of that issue... yet he goes on to derail the topic towards a "20K deflect" with ITC. Another person jumps aboard and states "No, it's the 75% base deflect severity that's the issue." Somebody else adds it's dodge rolls, too many too long. Later we are back to stealth, which paved the way to an "autocrit nerf".
This thread has seen so many nerf propositions coming from all angles, and all kinds of players of all gear range. That is overinformation and I can't honestly believe all of that is accurate.
Every feedback is valuable, but every feedback must also be checked for validity and bias.
the problem about balance and the reason why its never going to happen is the fact that enchants like Negation and feytouched disbalance everthing and balancing classes without them will lead to the effect we all experience by giving a GWF a feytouched and a negation in slots
@clonkyo1 You see the world in a very twisted manner. It should not be our problem that you read into things far too differently, or that you thrive in quoting, copying, misreading, disagreeing and outright trollbaiting other players. I'm sorry but I haven't read a single post from you that had anything productive, much less new, on it.
If a player like me, who play a 2k TR, can mess around like a fly/mosquito and deal some damage (yes, even with an MI Exec TR) vs BiS players (not top), then, that "scenario" will turn into a "nightmare" the day i reach 4k IL, in example.
See your objectivity here is unimpressive. You set a very low baseline example of yourself, and state opinion that is just "relative". It gives nothing productive or specific, much less actionable info to any of us. Find me the day you reach 4K, when you have something useful to share and I'll take you more seriously.
Comments
1- They can stealth and kill from range
2- They can wear the ring on their 21st finger & have a good time
Seriously, what were the devs thinking when the gave stealth to range-fighters ???
This is why you need to finish school kids.
If the pvp fight requires me to spend something like $2k per month - I am out coz the game is not worth it.
Neverwinter as you all know is stale & not fun at all with class bias.
A game is supposed to be fair with chances to win. If a CW can shoot you from range. We need stealth to get to the CW. Any way when near the target WILL SEE us. So, what was the point of the rings??? Sabotage of TRs to give them suicidal handicaps in pvp will lead to mass word of mouth advising rogue players to dump neverwinter.
Tell me what fun you have in this game -
- By pressing "K" and queing??
- By pvp damage 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0??
Seriously, how pathetic are the classes to actually require TR specialties like stealth along with their fire power. This is just sad.
In my opinion, if you hate Rogues - please remove the class altogether. Rogue community will move to other games.
Thanks.
Damn Mages !! -.- They are always up to something ...
If devs invented stealth rings, why they allowed that players can move under the stealth? Big issue here. CW aren't supposed to go into stealth and kill from range.
With Underdark edition this game becoming pap trash with not original ideas and solutions.
I never saw in other games so much 0 damage in PVP like in this game. Who invented stamina drain in this game for PVP?
The devs only brought us issues with this new edition and before it.
Do not get me wrong, this game is the best mmorpg for me with very good potential, but unfortunately this game not going to right direction, I'm afraid that this game does not end like Tera where the old players gave up.
the ring is HAMSTER and I threw it away, thats what we talk about
a CW killing from stealth ... so bad the CW, killing from stealth.....
there's much better rings out there,
btw TR's Problem is "not stealth"., is Piercing damage!!
Which simply Ignores Everything and make it easy for TR's to 1-Shot players-
Piercing damage Overcrowd SE to heaven-
No i try this stealth reveal ring every 20 seconds and hope to get the TR community to get rid of 1button SE builds
and guys just rethink your TR setup
this class has by far the most possibilities to adapt in PVP
i already met TR that just facetanked me with ease even without ITC
the class has 75% deflection severity! take a negation, take deflect up to 50 % and leave that nub oneshooter permastealth path, that is my recommandation !
Since 3 mods I get oneshooted every day and you dare to cry?
Its your own fault if you forgot how to play your class running all day easy mode.
The player who invest every single point in offence, power ( infight 40k !!), to press one button, have to be punished imo.
Every other class has to stack defence deflect, DR, LS , most TR´s forgot for what this is good and cry in forum not even tried to adapt to changes.
I can agree that a TR can adapt, the smart ones. But it's also good to pay attention just which kind of TR you're conversing with just to see who's on whose side. Every serious geared WK TR here knows. I count 2 others apart from morenthar and myself, and we were out buildcrafting megatank scoundrels when it clearly wasn't the <font color=yellow>best build</font> because we wanted options.
There were just 2 builds that were popular and easy, problem not being overpowered, but being <font color=yellow>easy</font>. That doesn't take away from the fact that any good player running with a cheese build, for whatever reason, would still be a good player no matter what build he plays with. Said player would just switch to the next best thing and wreck the hell out of the same group of people and they will complain here on the forum.
Speaking about the forum, it's been really hard lately to separate trolls from serious ones. I've seen at least one tragically undergeared GWF here who talks a lot. Classes need to be balanced around BiS characters, those at least geared 3K+. Whoever hasn't reached that just adds background noise to a discussion, as any value he might provide is more or less likely to be biased around the gear gap.
Hence, my long-standing suggestion to have dual-spec, free-for-all BiS equipment only usable in PvP like in GW2.
Like I said before, clearly not everybody on these forums are qualified to suggest class balance to the devs, starting with the presumptious tragically undergeared ones, and that's very likely why threads like these go on for 30+ pages and 2000 replies with not a single word from the devs.
I stand firmly that 2K players cannot know how to balance BiS builds since they will get their backs handed to them, regardless if the enemy is overpowered or not.
A 2K player cannot go up against a 4K player, regardless of who between them is skilled or not. We are not discussing physically or mentally impaired players, therefore "skill" is a matter of this guy has been playing for 2 years while the other guy has been playing for 2 weeks.
Balancing around that is plain stupid and wrong. I can say that I plant 10K Disheartening Strike ticks, nothing else, on three 2K pugs at the same time, and they all die in about 15 seconds one right after the other, before I even exit one rotation of stealth. Those 10K ticks will do 1K on a geared player. Get what I'm saying? So tell me, is a 100K Disheartening Strike at-will balanced or not? Or does a 1K DoT tick need to be nerfed to the ground?
Let me give you an insight about reasonable class balance;
I play a WK sab right now, and I rain piercing on my enemies. But by playing Whisperknife I have to do actual stealth management, not burn through my stealth with knives. When I drop out of permastealth by some fatal mistake, I can be CC'd and my some 130K hp bursted down. News flash, Whisperknife does not have ITC. Stealth reveal rings will be a counter to this and similar builds. This to me is balance: cookie cutter, killable.
If I go play WK Scoundrel, I can take on 4 or 5 players of my gear level without ITC or stealth. This is not a free lecture of how--go figure it out. But I wouldn't be able to take down one of them. That's also balance: unkillable, unable to kill.
Lastly, as Executioners are best suited to PvE, I would suggest you back off in that area because PvE TRs are already in a bad place to begin with.
I got most of this broken HAMSTER with my +/-3k warlock (axebeak, negation 20%, p bronzewood, lolset, SH LS-boon)
and its possible to face some geared classes, CW in first line, and pugging you also so good vs other classes...standing beside an OP or capable DC, warlock can really hurt.
But beside that the class on his own against skilled player with equal geared classes you do not have best cards, maybe having BIS gear its changing, but from what I saw from BIS warlocks in DOM the class is allways running or at distance or in defence, possibly cause of Avalanche that got fixed.
vs TR´s, low to no chance
vs GWF (nightmare for the class as long as you can´t pierce their defence having 1 billion Arp)
vs Hunter, the skilled disables you....and can selfheal several rotation from a warlock !
vs high arp GF....double mark and you are twoshottet
vs DC , no push no ability to burst down
Like I said before, clearly not everybody on these forums are qualified to suggest class balance to the devs, starting with the presumptious tragically undergeared ones, and that's very likely why threads like these go on for 30+ pages and 2000 replies with not a single word from the devs.
Have you ever seen devs in pvp? 2k pugs are military genius compared to them.
and you defeinitely can have an impression about classbalancing at lower level than 4k+
only one example: a 2,5 k OP can troll much better geared player, so imbalanced, same was/is known from TR, Hunter, DC
I made a 3,5k Op cry with my 2,4k rightous DC, same I can do to GWF (a)busing BtS all time on him and doing near permadodging , in case I get bored I pop empowered AS
a 2,4k GWF with lolset, negation, feytouched can make my far better Warlock cry all day
and so on
Let me explain: you say ONLY BiS players must have a say in class balance. That's not true.
Cause iLvL doesn't mean knowledge, nor skill. Many "BiS" players you meet in game are just average players using BiS gear they bought/ farmed, and then followed what their guildies found out testing stuff. Or do you think every BiS player tested himself T.Fey, T.Neg exc...nope.
There are BiS players who have skills and test a lot. Those are the one who usually have knowledge and skills. Others, i can tell for sure, are just average or less than average players and just play the class like a 2k pug, but they have BiS gear.
I faced a BiS CW that was at 3.8k iLvL at the time (not maxed but very close to BiS) with T.Fey, T.Neg and stuff, on my 2.8k (at the time, i'm close to 3k now) GWF with G.SF and Pure PF (time ago). Result: i killed him, he couldn't even make me soulforge, and i was still at half health. We faced multiple times. He was barely dodging and being very predictable.
Whatever was his mistake, what do you think? Is he a reliable source of feedback just because he is "BiS"? Don't make me laugh.
You say players like the one in clonky signature are "oddities". I disagree. There are plenty of geared players that simply use what other discovered to be "BiS".
On the other side, there are plenty of non-BiS players who are very knowledgeable and skilled.
Example n°2: Ant-Monster (where did he go btw?) was/ is not a BiS GF. But i faced him 1v1 and BiS GFs 1v1 and he was 100x more skilled at keeping his guard with specific movements, where BiS GFs were pretty "regular" and i could get behind them. With Ant, i couldn't. Won't explain in detail what he was doing, but was NOT target lock. It was him using specific movements he practiced and studied, to make it very difficult for the enemy to get behind him.
Example n°3: following BiS CWs/HRs/SWs/GFs/TRs/DCs feedback in module 5, GWF was a monster. Reason: BiS GWFs were 2-shotting enemies with intimidation builds. Those builds worked ONLY at very high iLvL (Power stat threesold). Everything under a certain level of gear was in a mess and the "BiS" build didn't represent AT ALL the real status of the class.
There are also BiS players who don't give a f... about class balance and just want to stomp other players exploiting everything they can. Could name a few. Would you trust their feedback just because they are "BiS".
So what you should say is "BiS players, who are skilled and test stuff, and are truly interested in class balance". So, in other words, 0.1% of NW population.
Feedback is needed at any iLvL. You can have good feedback even from less geared players, about how the class is working at that level of gear.
And considering 90% of the players are between 2.5k and 3.5k iLvL, i think it's more important to balance classes in that range of gear, and not first going for the BiS level. I understand it's important for BiS PvP guilds cause they live for competitive premades, but BiS competitive domination premadevspremade is a very small, very specialized way to play PvP.
Majority of players are non-BiS and play GG other than Domination. And if fixed, SH siege too.
Every feedback is valuable, if given with knowledge and real good intentions behind.
To be perfectly clear, BiS in my book is really a broad spectrum. This is not necessarily going to be measured by the iLvl. You said as much, though in different ways. Best in Slot could just be the most powerful build, with the most synergistic enchantments, and a certain combination of gear. Things like the Lostmauth set, Mythic Sigil of Devoted, Flail Snail, Axebeak, and Transcendent levels of Negation, Feytouched, Elven Battle, Soulforged or any viable enchantments.
Your typical enchantments, armor kits and mythic artifacts all add stats, just as well as guild boons do-- and guild boons don't give iLvl. Look at a 16K HP guild boon, isn't that almost the equivalent of 5x Radiant Rank 12, which easily equates to some 400 iLvl. I am around the 3.5K before my Lionsmane set which I am still yet to re-kit, with only Rank 10s, Transcendents and Mythics, but I might as well have been 4K if we consider guild boons. And already 4K players might as well have been 5K.
Even if I'm firmly stating that players below a certain gear range are unfit to question balance, I am on the side of those players. If you continue to balance classes on the performance of 2K characters without studying how exponentially stronger these classes will get when they reach 3.5K, you are not doing the undergeared players any favor. If anything, you are handing them as free kills to any (1 out of 10) BiS player just passing by.
Clonkyo says my point is nonsense, but he continues to just paraphrase me anyway...
With all these being said, I reiterate that class balancing must be done starting from the highest level, then down. Factors being;
1. How hard should the hardest Shocking Execution hit? Is it doing 140K damage at highest echelons of PvP? Should we tone this down to 80K, which gradually decreases further the lower the iLvl gets.
2. How many players does it take to bring down a 4K Outhbound Paladin? Are 5 striker class able to kill him it in a 5v1? That seems too much, let's assume it should be 3v1 at the most extreme cases, and after that the OP should become less survivable as his iLvl goes down.
3. How LONG is the longest possible UNINTERRUPTED stealth rotation of a permastealth TR? 60 secconds, 100 seconds, 300 seconds? Should we just cap this to a fair expected number, so that non-permastealth build TRs would not be able to output the highest damage and stay in stealth indefinitely, and just as easily as fully spec defensive builds.
4. How LONG can the best geared HR root, daze and immobilize a player? Yes, let's make it possible for the best-geared ones to permacontrol targets, but decrease that potential as their gear level goes down.
5. How powerful could a GWF with full stacks of everything get? This was obviously not considered by the devs when they gave you all buffs on earth. Should we perhaps estimate the maximum damage output GWFs do, tone it down to acceptable levels, and compensate the class with an overall better mechanic in terms of dodging, reliably landing encounters and such.
6. This also applies to PvE as well... Why does a dragon have to hit for 5 million damage? Can we assume that players do not have 5 million HP, and tone down that damage a lot, so every hit is not a one hit to lesser geared players.
My point is that, if it's not yet clear. If the devs start to balance the classes around the best gear, highest level enchantments, artifacts and builds, they would get a clear picture of the most extreme situations. Won't you be all happier if a permastealth TR didn't one shot you with SE? If a maxed AP gain DC and OP didn't affect each other so much that the entire party is immortal? That the BiS GF did not one rotation your GWF when you didn't have your full stacks on?
If you want to adopt a baby raptor, you also have to make sure that that little thing is not going to grow into a T-REX to eat your whole neighborhood. Last module, the devs made you those baby raptors, and now, a few have grown and they are causing masss genocide in PvP.
That is my exact sentiment when clonkyo (much earlier) uses his 2K TR to demonstrate how a TR performed. He had never been on the giving end of a 200K Shocking Execution (something I have proven possible at the most extreme conditions in my experience being a long time TR player). I can't trust that he even knows the core of that issue... yet he goes on to derail the topic towards a "20K deflect" with ITC. Another person jumps aboard and states "No, it's the 75% base deflect severity that's the issue." Somebody else adds it's dodge rolls, too many too long. Later we are back to stealth, which paved the way to an "autocrit nerf".
This thread has seen so many nerf propositions coming from all angles, and all kinds of players of all gear range. That is overinformation and I can't honestly believe all of that is accurate.
Every feedback is valuable, but every feedback must also be checked for validity and bias.
and balancing classes without them will lead to the effect we all experience by giving a GWF a feytouched and a negation in slots