You should learn to read and rage less, kid. First: during module 3 Roar was bugged and was rooting TRs through dodge, or at least this is what was reported multiple times and we eventually got the root effect completely removed. But during module 3 one of the biggest complaints was that Roar was bugged and going through dodge immunity.
I didn't compare Courage Breaker to Roar, so learn to read. I compared a mechanic, a specific one, which is a CC power going through CC immunity. Courage Breaker ignores CC immunity. If with my TR i hit an unstoppable GWF, he still gets semi-rooted by CB slowdown effect. If i hit him while sprinting, same.
My suggestion if you, sir, learn to read again, instead acting like a kid, is to BUFF the effect of CB, but make it "dodgeable". Which means that if the enemy is hit while sprinting/ during CC immunity, your daily misses. Just like any other daily except TR SE and CB fails if it hits dodges/ immunities/ defensive mechanics. On the other side, if you can use your brain that much to time it and hit the enemy after a dodge, or out of sprint, you have the full effect. Which is just common sense.
I already proposed changes to TR in exchange for SE fixes, and dersidius aka Sicarius, one of the oldest TRs in game, said those suggestions were good and that was the way to go to fix SE without ruining the TR class. I don't really need anything else and sorry, i value the opinion of more experienced TRs who can discuss normally without personal attacks, than a rage post by some nameless kid.
You should really, really rage less and learn to read and how to discuss with other users.
both effects of CB are debuffs, not controls. thats how it works.
It specifically mentions that it bypasses control immunity, as well. Which is either there to say "These are control effects, but since anything you WANT to use this power on is immune to control effects we had to let it bypass it" or "stop whining you stupid GWFs, it's not a control, but we'll specifically mention that it isn't affected by control immunity just so you stop complaining". Little did they know you can't stop the Whine Train.
A problem that would simply have not existed in the first place, if the devs listened to the warnings coming from concerned players that messing with the AP gain rates is going to have consequences. Dailies are special powers with powerful attributes, and therefore its effect in combat is regulated through low rate of usage/repetition. It's a power that's allowed only once per day in the original source material, for crying out loud.
Instead, now, we've got people with builds that can repeat these dailies under 20s flat. So when we start complaining about Daily powers, let's have a moment's pause and think about why nobody complained about the absolute majority of the dailies for the last 5~6 mods, and then suddenly it's become a big problem. Oh sure, falling under the effects of CB every 10s intervals is bad, but then so is being bombarded with stuff like non-stop Oppressive Force.
So put your hands on your hearts and ask yourselves: "Did I object to this when it all started, and they've opened up a can of worms when they first started messing around with AP/dailies, when Sigil of the Divine first came?" , because the way I recall it, most of the people here were fiercely defending how cool and fun it was to be able to refill AP fast and get to spam dailies more.
Oh sure, they were hellbent on how lame it was to be hit with BB or SE in very short intervals, but then they always weasled out when us TRs admitted to the problem, but correctly pointed out the source of the problem was with broken artifacts and chit. They'd prefer to be able to spam their own dailies, but simply did not want the same thing done to themselves.
Another fine "I told you so" moment, in the long history of the devs AND THE PLAYERS both contributing to the decline of the game.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
There are reports of 500k procs from eLoL set. It does not work as intended. It's supposed to add weapon damage on critical hits, but that damage gets buffed by buffs, debuffs and multipliers to insane numbers. Compared to other set bonuses it overperforms. The high crit build on GWF is more effective cause, since it scales with weapon damage, on GWF the damage is higher since the class got the highest weapon damage.
If a set is broken or overperforming, just like T.Fey for example, it must be toned down. Sorry if the owners of said set don't want it to happen.
both effects of CB are debuffs, not controls. thats how it works.
Oh, wrong. Courage breaker has one debuff (attack) effect, but also slows down the enemy by 90%, for a quite long time. More like "it's a root cause it makes the enemy move 1-in per hour, but we call it a slow down effect". The effect you get using it is to block a melee in place. Slow effect is listed as CC. Not debuff.
Now, the effect goes through CC immunity AND is not removed by CC breakers. It mentions this cause the slow down effect of the daily is, indeed, a CC effect.
Courage Breaker: Shatter your enemy's courage, slowing their movement speed and lowering their attack damage by 30%. This effect goes through control immunities.
Slow is usually listed as soft CC, but in CB it's so heavy that it is basically a root, and a very long one too, just "hidden" behind the fact that it's a slow effect. Too bad that if i slow your movements by 90%, i'm basically rooting you.
Add the rank 4 damage debuff, and what the daily translates into is "transform the enemy in a free target for X seconds".
It's not a huge problem usually, cause most TRs slot SE, and the ability is more effective on melees since a ranged HR/CW/SW can still CC you while you root him in place. A GF can still turn around and block your damage and a DC can still heal and use EAS unless you drop smoke bomb after CB on these classes. Add to this that the daily deals no damage and the TR encounters are, usually not high bursts. So the daily itself is not overpowered. But if it gets almost spammable due to the absurd AP gain we see now, it is indeed too powerful vs GWFs, just like piercing SE.
But i'm not saying that it must be "nerfed". Just like i don't want SE to get nerfed without compensating buffs to the class or the daily itself.
I'm not saying that.
I'm saying that the mechanic itself of "ignoring CC immumities" is stupid and it would be better to buff CB effect but make it lose the slow down part if you hit a sprinting-unstoppable-dodging-shadowslipping enemy, keeping the part that makes the slow effect stay even if the enemy uses a CC breaker. It means that if you hit the enemy out of CC immunity, you succeed. If you hit him when he is in CC immunity, you fail. Forcing TRs to time the daily, while increasing the effect of the daily.
Example, at rank 4:
You debuff the enemy damage by 90%, also reducing his self healing and damage resistance by half, for 10 seconds. You additionally slow down the enemy movements by 90% for 10 seconds, this effect cannot be nullified by CC breakers.
Now the lack of damage is compensated by a heavier debuff-slow effect, but at the same time if the TR is a total nab and fires it on a shifting-immune enemy, he gets punished. At the same time, the daily now is more useful on other classes and not only on GWFs, and becomes more viable and a better choice. If you can time it.
I don't understand why it's so hard to understand that mechanics that "hit no matter what" are stupid and take away skill from the combat.
A problem that would simply have not existed in the first place, if the devs listened to the warnings coming from concerned players that messing with the AP gain rates is going to have consequences. Dailies are special powers with powerful attributes, and therefore its effect in combat is regulated through low rate of usage/repetition. It's a power that's allowed only once per day in the original source material, for crying out loud.
Instead, now, we've got people with builds that can repeat these dailies under 20s flat. So when we start complaining about Daily powers, let's have a moment's pause and think about why nobody complained about the absolute majority of the dailies for the last 5~6 mods, and then suddenly it's become a big problem. Oh sure, falling under the effects of CB every 10s intervals is bad, but then so is being bombarded with stuff like non-stop Oppressive Force.
So put your hands on your hearts and ask yourselves: "Did I object to this when it all started, and they've opened up a can of worms when they first started messing around with AP/dailies, when Sigil of the Divine first came?" , because the way I recall it, most of the people here were fiercely defending how cool and fun it was to be able to refill AP fast and get to spam dailies more.
Oh sure, they were hellbent on how lame it was to be hit with BB or SE in very short intervals, but then they always weasled out when us TRs admitted to the problem, but correctly pointed out the source of the problem was with broken artifacts and chit. They'd prefer to be able to spam their own dailies, but simply did not want the same thing done to themselves.
Another fine "I told you so" moment, in the long history of the devs AND THE PLAYERS both contributing to the decline of the game.
Well yeah. I always advocated against broken mechanics. I have DC sigil cause i have a lvl 70 DC, but i only use it at blue on 2k iLvL alts. Two of which i use on PvE, and the only other toon being my 2.1k SW. Never used it on my main (GWF) or my last toon (TR).
Problem is, when i (or you, or others) write against broken stuff most ppl abuse, you get those replies such as "everyone can buy X item" or " you want it nerfed cause you don't own it". Just like eLoL set: i said it's broken, it's clearly broken, but a genius replied to me that "eLoL set is fine" and that i just want it "nerfed" cause i don't own it.
AP gain is indeed through the roof, with legendary AP gain neck pieces + mythic devoted sigil + flail snail mount absurd effect. Expecially on classes that already have a high AP generation.
Same goes for drain enchants, T.Fey...you can say they are broken but nothing happens. I don't use these items and, in fact, i basically play on a significantly lower level compared to an equally skilled player who uses said items/ combos.
Problem is, PWE seems to rely on this strategy to keep players in need for massive amounts of AD and items.
Pre-tenebrous nerf (mod 1 and before)---->own tenebrous+ high HP build or GTFO *don't remember what was broken in module 2-3 but may be most balanced period related to items (not classes)* module 4---> blue-red glyphs or GTFO Enchants rework----> T.Fey+T.Neg+eLoL or GTFO Mounts with bonuses--->the above + bonus mount or GTFO SH---> the above+ drain enchants or GTFO
A gf can still 1 shot people with. Bull charge but it s ok. Lets remember that a tr encounter hits for 1/3 of every other class with the higher cooldowns on said nukes. The crit chance in stealth is a nerf to damage with current tenacity levels. I would pay to not crit. We are the only class with depletion on its tab, why this applies to melee at wills too its beyond comprehension. So yes SE its BS still damage needs to be buffed hard somewhere
Whiny TRs are hilarious. The reason depletion applies to melee at-wills, is, as you doubtless already know, that for the most common TR builds, Cloud of Steel does about twice the damage of an HR encounter. Complaining about AP buildup is silly with the Lostmauth set and a Sigil of the Devoted. We all know how easily TRs abuse dailies. And besides, GWF seriously has it coming. Sprint was always a terrible idea and Unstoppable is really just an exploit anymore. I stopped playing my TR somewhat into mod 6 because after going 39-0 in a domination match (with mostly r7 and a few r8 enchantments) it was too easy to be fun anymore. I'm not saying TR should go back to its mod 2-4 state of near-uselessness and needing tricky builds or BiS gear to be worthwhile, but along with OP and (as always) GWF, it's a no-skill button masher's dream.
Give SW/GWF sprint DR on separate layer like negation enchantment was before and everything will be fine!
If you do that SW would be fine but GWF might get too powerful with current T.Fey-T.Neg-eLoL setup. Expecially with BF builds. You can do that but then raise base GWF damage and nerf, for example, Hidden Dagger self-buff.
What i'd do:
Hidden Dagger self buff--->take away the 40% self damage buff, increase number of charges to 4 and make the encounter debuff the enemy DR by 10% for 10 seconds (works well in PvE AoE and PvP). This way the power will still be useful. Raise GWF base damage by 20%
Now you have an overall 20% reduction of overall GWF DPS (40-20= 20%).
Increase combat efficiency of the class on IBS, RS, Takedown.
Make Unstoppable/ sprint/ shadow slip DR on separate layer.
Now class is more consistent but a 20% damage nerf (huge) makes a full stacked GWF more in line with other DPS classes.
Just rough ideas that imho would overall improve SW, balance GWF and fix the SE issue on GWF/SW.
A gf can still 1 shot people with. Bull charge but it s ok. Lets remember that a tr encounter hits for 1/3 of every other class with the higher cooldowns on said nukes. The crit chance in stealth is a nerf to damage with current tenacity levels. I would pay to not crit. We are the only class with depletion on its tab, why this applies to melee at wills too its beyond comprehension. So yes SE its BS still damage needs to be buffed hard somewhere
This... +1
and without SE spamming TR's, those unkillable DC's and OP's would never die without 5 CW's spamming it. Every class has its own nemesis. SE/Exe TR's are tank killers, period. How fun is it to run around with your shield up and never have to worry about gettting ganked. Tenacity should be removed anyway, dumb stat.
Post edited by sweatapodimas on
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
A gf can still 1 shot people with. Bull charge but it s ok. Lets remember that a tr encounter hits for 1/3 of every other class with the higher cooldowns on said nukes. The crit chance in stealth is a nerf to damage with current tenacity levels. I would pay to not crit. We are the only class with depletion on its tab, why this applies to melee at wills too its beyond comprehension. So yes SE its BS still damage needs to be buffed hard somewhere
This... +1
and without SE spamming TR's, those unkillable DC's and OP's would never die without 5 CW's spamming it. Every class has its own nemesis. SE/Exe TR's are tank killers, period. How fun is it to run around with your shield up and never have to worry about get ganked. Tenacity should be removed anyway, dumb stat.
1.if the paladin or dc is so unkilable avoid that cap. 2. They are not immortal DEBUFF THEM and kill them.
So the daily itself is not overpowered. But if it gets almost spammable due to the absurd AP gain we see now, it is indeed too powerful vs GWFs, just like piercing SE.
It's not only because of the AP gain. I've used CB for the longest time because it was funny watching GWF sprint in slowmotion... CB is not a problem for other classes because you can just dodge a few times. IMO, CB shouldn't affect sprint/shadow slip speeds that way. It just looks like a very sloppy design of a mechanic.
Or maybe just advocate to get a real dodge on your class, solve issues on SE/CB. These two dailies are crucial parts of an ecosystem in PvP; SE is supposed to be a tank buster. It's like wolf. Take out the wolves there would be an overabundance of preys (OP/DC), and probably a huge decline in vegetation (players).
it is also possible for OP to perm bubble and make their whole team totally invincible for the entire game....
That is skill man, pure skill -- well that is what they tell me anyways. There is nothing quite as immersive as being cursed at in broken English by a corpse stomping perma bubble OP.
Still with that non-sense?? GWF's damage come from 2 sources: Feytouched (this is +4k to power when hitting BiS Players) + Lostmauth set (needs a nerf) and Marks, which needs to be fixed for us... Funny thing, again, is that players only ask for a nerf on GWF instead of Feytouched and Lostmauth because you all use them too... Double standards?? where???
According to your version of NWPvP dreamland we've caught glimpses so far, TRs won't be able to hide 100% of the time, won't be able to bypass your defenses, won't be able to gain any initiative in deciding engagement/disengagement, and won't be able to 1~2shot your arsses.
So both parties will be be able to target and hit each other at roughly comparable rates, despite the GWF is infinitely stronger in terms of DPS output.
At the same time, the TR won't really be able to run anytime soon, whereas the GWF is allowed to sprint in and out as he wants without anything stopping it.
CB will just become insta-useless the moment you activate sprint, our ITC will also be reliably penetrated since it won't be able to deflect 100% of the time... while at the same time, our powers that nullify your own Unstoppable are all flushed dow the toilet.
You want our Impossible to Catch to become Possible to Catch, but at the same time you don't want your own Unstoppable being actually Stoppable.
If this isn't a double standard, then tell me, what is?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
Once a GWF gets hit by CB, it doesn't matter if he tries to Sprint or pop Unstoppable, the CB's effect doesn't go away and GWF can probably move about a CW's dodge distance for the entire 10 seconds..... so no... sprint doesn't help....
Comments
I didn't compare Courage Breaker to Roar, so learn to read. I compared a mechanic, a specific one, which is a CC power going through CC immunity. Courage Breaker ignores CC immunity. If with my TR i hit an unstoppable GWF, he still gets semi-rooted by CB slowdown effect. If i hit him while sprinting, same.
My suggestion if you, sir, learn to read again, instead acting like a kid, is to BUFF the effect of CB, but make it "dodgeable". Which means that if the enemy is hit while sprinting/ during CC immunity, your daily misses. Just like any other daily except TR SE and CB fails if it hits dodges/ immunities/ defensive mechanics. On the other side, if you can use your brain that much to time it and hit the enemy after a dodge, or out of sprint, you have the full effect. Which is just common sense.
I already proposed changes to TR in exchange for SE fixes, and dersidius aka Sicarius, one of the oldest TRs in game, said those suggestions were good and that was the way to go to fix SE without ruining the TR class.
I don't really need anything else and sorry, i value the opinion of more experienced TRs who can discuss normally without personal attacks, than a rage post by some nameless kid.
You should really, really rage less and learn to read and how to discuss with other users.
thats how it works.
Instead, now, we've got people with builds that can repeat these dailies under 20s flat. So when we start complaining about Daily powers, let's have a moment's pause and think about why nobody complained about the absolute majority of the dailies for the last 5~6 mods, and then suddenly it's become a big problem. Oh sure, falling under the effects of CB every 10s intervals is bad, but then so is being bombarded with stuff like non-stop Oppressive Force.
So put your hands on your hearts and ask yourselves: "Did I object to this when it all started, and they've opened up a can of worms when they first started messing around with AP/dailies, when Sigil of the Divine first came?" , because the way I recall it, most of the people here were fiercely defending how cool and fun it was to be able to refill AP fast and get to spam dailies more.
Oh sure, they were hellbent on how lame it was to be hit with BB or SE in very short intervals, but then they always weasled out when us TRs admitted to the problem, but correctly pointed out the source of the problem was with broken artifacts and chit. They'd prefer to be able to spam their own dailies, but simply did not want the same thing done to themselves.
Another fine "I told you so" moment, in the long history of the devs AND THE PLAYERS both contributing to the decline of the game.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It does not work as intended. It's supposed to add weapon damage on critical hits, but that damage gets buffed by buffs, debuffs and multipliers to insane numbers.
Compared to other set bonuses it overperforms.
The high crit build on GWF is more effective cause, since it scales with weapon damage, on GWF the damage is higher since the class got the highest weapon damage.
If a set is broken or overperforming, just like T.Fey for example, it must be toned down. Sorry if the owners of said set don't want it to happen.
Courage breaker has one debuff (attack) effect, but also slows down the enemy by 90%, for a quite long time.
More like "it's a root cause it makes the enemy move 1-in per hour, but we call it a slow down effect". The effect you get using it is to block a melee in place. Slow effect is listed as CC. Not debuff.
Now, the effect goes through CC immunity AND is not removed by CC breakers. It mentions this cause the slow down effect of the daily is, indeed, a CC effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_control_(video_gaming)
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Crowd_Control Slow is usually listed as soft CC, but in CB it's so heavy that it is basically a root, and a very long one too, just "hidden" behind the fact that it's a slow effect. Too bad that if i slow your movements by 90%, i'm basically rooting you.
Add the rank 4 damage debuff, and what the daily translates into is "transform the enemy in a free target for X seconds".
It's not a huge problem usually, cause most TRs slot SE, and the ability is more effective on melees since a ranged HR/CW/SW can still CC you while you root him in place. A GF can still turn around and block your damage and a DC can still heal and use EAS unless you drop smoke bomb after CB on these classes. Add to this that the daily deals no damage and the TR encounters are, usually not high bursts.
So the daily itself is not overpowered. But if it gets almost spammable due to the absurd AP gain we see now, it is indeed too powerful vs GWFs, just like piercing SE.
But i'm not saying that it must be "nerfed". Just like i don't want SE to get nerfed without compensating buffs to the class or the daily itself.
I'm not saying that.
I'm saying that the mechanic itself of "ignoring CC immumities" is stupid and it would be better to buff CB effect but make it lose the slow down part if you hit a sprinting-unstoppable-dodging-shadowslipping enemy, keeping the part that makes the slow effect stay even if the enemy uses a CC breaker.
It means that if you hit the enemy out of CC immunity, you succeed. If you hit him when he is in CC immunity, you fail.
Forcing TRs to time the daily, while increasing the effect of the daily.
Example, at rank 4:
You debuff the enemy damage by 90%, also reducing his self healing and damage resistance by half, for 10 seconds. You additionally slow down the enemy movements by 90% for 10 seconds, this effect cannot be nullified by CC breakers.
Now the lack of damage is compensated by a heavier debuff-slow effect, but at the same time if the TR is a total nab and fires it on a shifting-immune enemy, he gets punished.
At the same time, the daily now is more useful on other classes and not only on GWFs, and becomes more viable and a better choice. If you can time it.
I don't understand why it's so hard to understand that mechanics that "hit no matter what" are stupid and take away skill from the combat.
I have DC sigil cause i have a lvl 70 DC, but i only use it at blue on 2k iLvL alts. Two of which i use on PvE, and the only other toon being my 2.1k SW. Never used it on my main (GWF) or my last toon (TR).
Problem is, when i (or you, or others) write against broken stuff most ppl abuse, you get those replies such as "everyone can buy X item" or " you want it nerfed cause you don't own it". Just like eLoL set: i said it's broken, it's clearly broken, but a genius replied to me that "eLoL set is fine" and that i just want it "nerfed" cause i don't own it.
AP gain is indeed through the roof, with legendary AP gain neck pieces + mythic devoted sigil + flail snail mount absurd effect.
Expecially on classes that already have a high AP generation.
Same goes for drain enchants, T.Fey...you can say they are broken but nothing happens. I don't use these items and, in fact, i basically play on a significantly lower level compared to an equally skilled player who uses said items/ combos.
Problem is, PWE seems to rely on this strategy to keep players in need for massive amounts of AD and items.
Pre-tenebrous nerf (mod 1 and before)---->own tenebrous+ high HP build or GTFO
*don't remember what was broken in module 2-3 but may be most balanced period related to items (not classes)*
module 4---> blue-red glyphs or GTFO
Enchants rework----> T.Fey+T.Neg+eLoL or GTFO
Mounts with bonuses--->the above + bonus mount or GTFO
SH---> the above+ drain enchants or GTFO
You can do that but then raise base GWF damage and nerf, for example, Hidden Dagger self-buff.
What i'd do:
Hidden Dagger self buff--->take away the 40% self damage buff, increase number of charges to 4 and make the encounter debuff the enemy DR by 10% for 10 seconds (works well in PvE AoE and PvP). This way the power will still be useful.
Raise GWF base damage by 20%
Now you have an overall 20% reduction of overall GWF DPS (40-20= 20%).
Increase combat efficiency of the class on IBS, RS, Takedown.
Make Unstoppable/ sprint/ shadow slip DR on separate layer.
Now class is more consistent but a 20% damage nerf (huge) makes a full stacked GWF more in line with other DPS classes.
Just rough ideas that imho would overall improve SW, balance GWF and fix the SE issue on GWF/SW.
and without SE spamming TR's, those unkillable DC's and OP's would never die without 5 CW's spamming it. Every class has its own nemesis. SE/Exe TR's are tank killers, period. How fun is it to run around with your shield up and never have to worry about gettting ganked. Tenacity should be removed anyway, dumb stat.
2. They are not immortal DEBUFF THEM and kill them.
thanks.
Or maybe just advocate to get a real dodge on your class, solve issues on SE/CB. These two dailies are crucial parts of an ecosystem in PvP; SE is supposed to be a tank buster. It's like wolf. Take out the wolves there would be an overabundance of preys (OP/DC), and probably a huge decline in vegetation (players).
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
So both parties will be be able to target and hit each other at roughly comparable rates, despite the GWF is infinitely stronger in terms of DPS output.
At the same time, the TR won't really be able to run anytime soon, whereas the GWF is allowed to sprint in and out as he wants without anything stopping it.
CB will just become insta-useless the moment you activate sprint, our ITC will also be reliably penetrated since it won't be able to deflect 100% of the time... while at the same time, our powers that nullify your own Unstoppable are all flushed dow the toilet.
You want our Impossible to Catch to become Possible to Catch, but at the same time you don't want your own Unstoppable being actually Stoppable.
If this isn't a double standard, then tell me, what is?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)