@hedgebet: don't know if 3 times, but for sure TR stamina regeneration is way, way faster unless the GWF gives up one offensive encounter for BF (speed demon build).
And no, it's not like "i can't beat you with the path i chose". It's a fair and true point-by-point description of how current META GWF (destroyer) interacts with current META TR (MI/Sabo). Sentinel and Instigator are currently way weaker than destroyer so it's more like i wrote "GWF at its best vs TR at its best is like this". Also, on a side note, i can fight back at TRs basically because after 2 years of PvP and since i play a TR myself (only lvl 64 but still, get the idea of how the class works) i can put together different points of view of the class.
@Morenthar: my post is not a complaint. It's only a description of the current status of a META GWF vs META TR. I already described my ideas about buffs to TR to compensate a tone down of current broken MI/Sabo mechanics, so it's not like my position is "nerf all the weapons TRs have" but rather "replace lame overpowered mechanics with something effective but, at the same time, in line with basic mechanics of the game".
@pando83 Is it not possible to stack higher than 170K hp, or upwards of 200K at BiS level even if it cost you to give up Destroyer? I can imagine it's going to be a horrible build vs other classes, but high HP is the nemesis of any shocking build. Can't one shot you, can't spam enough SE on you.
@hedgebet: don't know if 3 times, but for sure TR stamina regeneration is way, way faster unless the GWF gives up one offensive encounter for BF (speed demon build).
And no, it's not like "i can't beat you with the path i chose". It's a fair and true point-by-point description of how current META GWF (destroyer) interacts with current META TR (MI/Sabo). Sentinel and Instigator are currently way weaker than destroyer so it's more like i wrote "GWF at its best vs TR at its best is like this". Also, on a side note, i can fight back at TRs basically because after 2 years of PvP and since i play a TR myself (only lvl 64 but still, get the idea of how the class works) i can put together different points of view of the class.
@Morenthar: my post is not a complaint. It's only a description of the current status of a META GWF vs META TR. I already described my ideas about buffs to TR to compensate a tone down of current broken MI/Sabo mechanics, so it's not like my position is "nerf all the weapons TRs have" but rather "replace lame overpowered mechanics with something effective but, at the same time, in line with basic mechanics of the game".
TR counters GWF best thats what I feal on my GWF and its even harder for taht class than for a warlock most time I did already meat TR´s that can spam SE in very short time? First SE my 95k HP and next a Hunter in 5 feet away , all full tenacity set, less than10 seconds between interestingly i did not see a DC-sigil pop up, but my eyes may be weak. Juan-Ce or Yuen-DE named ...forgot, its very effective in a pug match and it carries the group, like GWF carries a group of pugs if equipped. As a warlock its exactly like this: You see the TR vanish 30 feet away and next few seconds you are dead and there is nothing you can do, no shadow slip helps, nothing...yes get GF sigil, get Forgehammer of gond...TR just interrupts his animation seeing it popping up, waits 10 seconds...SE
Thats why GWF and warlock just needs some help like lots of times postetd, shadowslip and sprint on a unmitigateble layer against piercing f.e., this would be sufficient in most cases and its possible by doing so that these classes get overbuffed in some aspects, GWF now hardly to counter from any class and fotm ....warlock maybe fine, depends
Post edited by schietindebux on
0
urlord283Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,084Arc User
My GF is no slouch but a TR can take me down with out any ability to answer...
Between Smoke bomb and surprise... it is a real blood bath
@hedgebet: don't know if 3 times, but for sure TR stamina regeneration is way, way faster unless the GWF gives up one offensive encounter for BF (speed demon build).
And no, it's not like "i can't beat you with the path i chose". It's a fair and true point-by-point description of how current META GWF (destroyer) interacts with current META TR (MI/Sabo). Sentinel and Instigator are currently way weaker than destroyer so it's more like i wrote "GWF at its best vs TR at its best is like this". Also, on a side note, i can fight back at TRs basically because after 2 years of PvP and since i play a TR myself (only lvl 64 but still, get the idea of how the class works) i can put together different points of view of the class. ...
Well there are often trade offs for one thing or another. I understand some are more effective trades (ITC for an offensive encounter), but some are quite similar (shadow strike for an offensive encounter). I extend no sympathy for giving up things for counters when the option remains as that is about the only thing that is left that can make play interesting.
I don't play an MI sab, but I do fairly well against them and I would give myself the edge in most match ups (not that I am particularly skilled or anything but I tend to take out MI sabs over my IL unless they are sporting the drains). Much comes from experience as well and that overconfidence which swells in the MI sab ranks. This, though, is true for most classes fighting most overs that experience dictates the tactics and often the outcome. It almost sounds like you are saying that you can hold your own against MI sab and that it bothers you that it is not as easy as versus other classes and since you don't seem to find that bothersome it begs the question of whether you consider yourself to be better skilled than all you face by default (if you can follow what I mean by this).
and still get one shot by a TR while riding my mount in GG pvp.
Umm because you were riding your mount. Your individual defense is drastically reduced when you're on your mount, leaving you vulnerable for a possible one shot. It has always been this way, for everyone caught on their mount. I'm amazed people still don't realize this. The very reason why people should never sit on their mount while waiting for a node to be taken or ride around tight corners when a TR can hit you with a Lashing Blade.
Super Saiyan God- TR Lvl 70 (PVP) Unleash The Wolves- HR Lvl 70 (PVE) <font color="Aquamarine">"Non-Pay-To-Win"</font> I hunt GWF "Magik" on sight.
Well there are often trade offs for one thing or another. I understand some are more effective trades (ITC for an offensive encounter), but some are quite similar (shadow strike for an offensive encounter). I extend no sympathy for giving up things for counters when the option remains as that is about the only thing that is left that can make play interesting.
I don't play an MI sab, but I do fairly well against them and I would give myself the edge in most match ups (not that I am particularly skilled or anything but I tend to take out MI sabs over my IL unless they are sporting the drains). Much comes from experience as well and that overconfidence which swells in the MI sab ranks. This, though, is true for most classes fighting most overs that experience dictates the tactics and often the outcome. It almost sounds like you are saying that you can hold your own against MI sab and that it bothers you that it is not as easy as versus other classes and since you don't seem to find that bothersome it begs the question of whether you consider yourself to be better skilled than all you face by default (if you can follow what I mean by this).
Not at all. It was just comparing stamina regeneration. I mentioned Battlefury cause it refills stamina, but it's an encounter. If you compare TR basic stamina regeneration to GWF stamina regeneration, it's faster. Way faster.
And no, i never wrote that i'm the most skilled player always. More like many TRs tend to be predictable, and make some mistakes, and after 2 years fighting them and knowing the class, i have some knowledge that allows me to counter them. But i can tell you that there's an abyss between the average overconfident MI/Sabo, and an experienced TR who actually fine tuned his skills and rotation. But this is not even the point because my original post was not about my personal experience.
I simply wrote down simple mechanics. You can take it the way you want but i simply described how certain TR mechanics and powers, interact with GWF mechanics and powers.
Also: i didn't even expressed any statement, but if you read what BiS PvPers write, they will tell you a BiS, skilled and experienced GWF vs equally BiS, skilled and experienced TR, usually results in an almost full victory of the TR. Everytime i've read a BiS PvPer from the biggest PvP guilds talk about current TR vs current GWF in their META build, they always said TR should never lose and, even if outplayed/ cornered, should never die unless he/ she wants.
And here i'm just reporting simple facts/ mechanics or statements of the players who play the classes to their max, about how the META builds interact. In between there's a universe of different gear, experience and skill levels, and build variations. But if you want to truly see how things are, the way is to examine mechanics and see what those who play a class to the max (max gear, max knowledge, max skill), have to say.
So no, i'm not saying things of my own, thinking i'm skilled or special. I'm just reporting facts and statements that are beyond the simple, personal experience of the average player.
If there's something wrong in the description i made of GWF-TR interaction (powers and mechanics), everyone is free to say what is wrong and why.
Is the destroyer the best GWF build to face an MI sab, though? I say it is not by a long shot and that is just one particular case of a meta vs a meta and I don't see a problem with one having an advantage when both are chosen for being overall better against more than they are not. If the GWF meta was not so devastating in every other aspect it would not be the chosen meta.
I am still not sure that is correct on stamina. Are you sure of this and are you comparing the same stamina pool vs the same stamina pool in your tests or, is it as in my case, simply from observation?
Update: I did a real fast comparison on one of my GWF and one of my TR. The TR did indeed refill stamina 1 second faster than the GWF -- but the TR has higher stamina gain than the gwf from items (sorry didn't look to see the amount but will try to later if I get the time).
0
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
Destoyer is the best known PvP build vs whatever other classes, cus other paragons has both lower surviability (due to RI%) as well as less damage. (Senti paragon might be 'tankier' in low level or avearge player's fights, but at high level fights its totally useless, once again, RI is the answer) Not to mention, TR's SE ignores all defence mechanics so again, it makes no difference.
I could beat 98%+ of the TRs including the ones from average/top PvP guilds but that's mainly because they are either not highly geared (3.5k+ is my standard of highly geared) or hasn't really mastered their class (typical example is the noobs that only know about throwing CoD until they have Daily then SE ones). For those TR that actually knows how to play their class, they should win GWF 99/100 times. In fact I know the difference between the TRs pretty well, but I rather not disclose it as the combos are way too abusive
@Rustlord: Other path does not offer GWF more HP. Senti offers more defense and we all know its useless against Piercing damage.
Another reason why GWF should go Destoyer is because you gain Determination faster, and would have the chance to use Unstoppable before SE hits you to cancel out some damage (using the Temp HP).
You do realize that sounds like you just said "The majority (98%) of TR's in the game I can beat because either they have low gear or the ones that have good gear are not good players, but the 2% that can beat me it is because they class is broken/OP". That may not be what you meant but I read it quite a few times and that is how it reads.
@pando83 Is it not possible to stack higher than 170K hp, or upwards of 200K at BiS level even if it cost you to give up Destroyer? I can imagine it's going to be a horrible build vs other classes, but high HP is the nemesis of any shocking build. Can't one shot you, can't spam enough SE on you.
Hi, "Bone", mind if i laugh at this? because this is really funny.
(sorry , i ignore other TRolls like Morenthar, their comments are not even funny)
Morenthar has been one of the outspoken advocates of pointing out what was broken/op/abusable on the TR. Just because he rebuts some of the silly and pathetic cries to nerf the TR in every way possible you would have issue with him? I seldom ever see anyone point out the issues within the other class communities about what is overpowered/abusable/broken within their own classes, but their are actually more than a few TR that do in the TR community.
0
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited November 2015
I did not say anything about the class being broken nor OP and that is clear. I am saying skill and gears makes difference, you can have the skill but if you dont have the gear, u can't kill a geared player, or if you are highly geared but not have the skill then you still dies all the time. (see the infamous Ces*k* for reference...)
Now when Skill and Gear are both present fighting similar geared/skill opponents, then TR should win 99% of the time vs GWF. I am not gonna bother explaining more details, its been explained hundreds of times all over PvP forum, its the class mechanic, Piercing and how some combo works.
One advise, dont jump into conclusion and tunnel-vision yourself, try to think from different point of views.
You do realize that sounds like you just said "The majority (98%) of TR's in the game I can beat because either they have low gear or the ones that have good gear are not good players, but the 2% that can beat me it is because they class is broken/OP". That may not be what you meant but I read it quite a few times and that is how it reads.
I did not say anything about the class being broken nor OP and that is clear. I am saying skill and gears makes difference, you can have the skill but if you dont have the gear, u can't kill a geared player, or if you are highly geared but not have the skill then you still dies all the time. (see the infamous Ces*k* for reference...)
Now when Skill and Gear are both present fighting similar geared/skill opponents, then TR should win 99% of the time vs GWF. I am not gonna bother explaining more details, its been explained hundreds of times all over PvP forum, its the class mechanic, Piercing and how some combo works.
One advise, dont jump into conclusion and tunnel-vision yourself, try to think from different point of views.
You do realize that sounds like you just said "The majority (98%) of TR's in the game I can beat because either they have low gear or the ones that have good gear are not good players, but the 2% that can beat me it is because they class is broken/OP". That may not be what you meant but I read it quite a few times and that is how it reads.
I did not jump to any conclusion nor did I even make a conclusion. I was actually trying to help your correct your post if you were meaning it to be something else other than what you wrote. You committed a logical fallacy known as a false dichotomy and it weakened any point you may have been trying to make.
Some advice back to you (since you were the only one between the two of us that jumped to any conclusion) is that when someone tries to help you out don't take offense.
0
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
I did not say anything about the class being broken nor OP and that is clear. I am saying skill and gears makes difference, you can have the skill but if you dont have the gear, u can't kill a geared player, or if you are highly geared but not have the skill then you still dies all the time. (see the infamous Ces*k* for reference...)
Now when Skill and Gear are both present fighting similar geared/skill opponents, then TR should win 99% of the time vs GWF. I am not gonna bother explaining more details, its been explained hundreds of times all over PvP forum, its the class mechanic, Piercing and how some combo works.
One advise, dont jump into conclusion and tunnel-vision yourself, try to think from different point of views.
You do realize that sounds like you just said "The majority (98%) of TR's in the game I can beat because either they have low gear or the ones that have good gear are not good players, but the 2% that can beat me it is because they class is broken/OP". That may not be what you meant but I read it quite a few times and that is how it reads.
I did not jump to any conclusion nor did I even make a conclusion. I was actually trying to help your correct your post if you were meaning it to be something else other than what you wrote. You committed a logical fallacy known as a false dichotomy and it weakened any point you may have been trying to make.
Some advice back to you (since you were the only one between the two of us that jumped to any conclusion) is that when someone tries to help you out don't take offense.
No worries, I know it is oddly natural for people to fall one way or the other in certain discussions and that we also naturally take that others do as well. I am prone to confirmation bias and have to actively guard against it.
Do you really think that Shadow Strike is "Broken/OP/abussable" because of it does not proc the "OWTS" 's Sab capstone, in example ?
While the change that was made to making it not proc the capstone does make sense from a QoL perspective, I would say that it certainly falls into the area of OP/abussable (especially when you compare it to the other paths and how their capstones work because there was no such adjustment made to them and the negative side to both of the other paths is loads more problematic than what would be to SS if it had been left as it was). If one were to only look at the surface they may not realize that, but with the changes also made to SS (extended from a 1 sec daze in stealth to a whopping 4 second daze) it allows the sab to be a better precision dazer than the scoundrel. The only drawback, I suppose, is that the 10 second damage bonus is not activated when SS is used from stealth, but then a sab would not be preparing to take advantage of that anyways in using an SS from stealth.
If they had also made similar changes to the scoundrel so that OWTS would not proc its capstone (as well as DS and SB not procing the capstone), and if they had made changes to executioner so that dots/bleeds/boons didn't strip (entirely deny and prevent it being used without even contributing the capstone effect) its capstone I would find at least balance among the paths (still they all have cases of being OP/abusable) but for the devs to make the easiest to play path even easier with this very special consideration and to not apply it to the others seems odd. Maybe if SS didn't proc the capstone when used out of stealth and it did when used in stealth I would not have as much of a problem with it (or if the daze was reduced to an interrupt instead of a 4 second daze as I think SS is so good for its purpose that the 4 second daze is way too strong).
almost everyone, but your point is void. how many gwfs destroyer using ibs/hidden dagger?
the reason for them doing so is even more obvious than tr using a 1k damage encounter. As far as im concerned, SS can totally be reworked in a real damaging encounter is this for you would fix the problem
It seems quite a bit use it but I would have no idea really. I cannot figure out what you are trying to get at though. It seems like you are being argumentative (but I could be confused). I am one of the ones that thinks SS needs a nerf in its daze duration when used from stealth. I would also like to see it decreased in stealth refill and increased significantly in damage. Basically I am calling for a nerf on SS but it sounds to me like you think it is fine in its current state. Is this correct?
There is a big difference between smoke and shadow and the usage. Smoke is stationary and anyone with a bit of timing can remove themselves from it before it takes effect or at the worst suffer only 1 second of it. It has no effect upon ranged attacks and the TR can be pushed out from within its confines. Shadow on the other hand is not bound by these restrictions and the duration can also be longer than smoke if the TR makes no offensive actions. I consider shadow more of a defensive pause mechanism where smoke as an area control.
we can continue talking but this is what happens than in reality xraw angel should be stylin, the other one is mjolnir aka aryoux
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTiPWvKRDZQ
now lets image this fight without its shocking execution or itc....makes you smile right? it should lol
or a random nebula getting hit for 12k at will while in the astral shield quite fun too
I'm sorry, i'm probably a bit dumb, but i see the oldest and most experienced GWF actively anticipating the moves of the stealth TR, finding him and tailing him through personal skills, i see him waiting to activate unstoppable to defend against smoke bomb through very good timing, and in the meanwhile i see the TR staying in stealth most of the time, spamming 40-50k+ SE and piercing damage, and using a very predictable pattern, being outplayed but still holding out and almost killing one of the top 3, and the oldest (if i'm not mistaken), GWF in game. Don't know if the TR is in the same position/ can be considered at the same level. But i guess if you compared them, the answer is probably yes.
I also see very low efficiency (GWF) vs lame mechanics. To me, it looks like ayroux is able to outplay the TR. Correct me if i'm wrong. Ayroux:
-predicts his position, finds him through stealth multiple times -holds his unstoppable and pops it to nullify the predictable smoke bomb pattern of the TR -times his hits and uses hidden dagger to deplete the TR's stealth/ reveal him for few milliseconds, then use it to track his movements in stealth -there is not magic power allowing him to hit. He does it through personal skill to hold and time unstoppable on smoke bomb constantly, find the TR when he is invisible, and glue to him. Perfectly time his hits out of the TR ITC/dodges (not sure if stamina drains were used, but i think they were involved)
For example, in my humble opinion, after SEing and hitting a GWF multiple times, dropping a direct smoke bomb is a bad idea because the GWF has unstoppable ready to pop. One time he is also trying to facetank him (happens one time. The TR drops smoke bomb slightly after ayroux goes unstoppable, then tries to facetank him, and gets wrecked). I would, for example, drop smoke bomb one of the times (happens) when ayroux pops unstoppable and the TR kites him through stealth. So i would wait for unstoppable to pop, kite, and as soon as it ends, drop smoke bomb and flurry him/DPS him.
What i think is: does it take more skills to play the way the TR does (stealth-smoke bomb-ITC-SE spam), or the way ayroux does (find stealth TR, hold and time unstoppable on smoke bomb, time hits and dailies out of the TR ITC/dodge rolls the few seconds he is visible/ vulnerable).
Now imagine a balanced PvP where both classes needed to aim and time their hits, instead of having 1 class relying on overperforming gear/enchants (T.Fey,-T.Neg-eLoL set) to be strong (try a GWF in PvP using soulforged and another weapon enchant different from T.Fey) and prediction, and the other relegated to a lame and skill-less type of gameplay because all other paths are underperforming.
We'll never get that if the feedback is limited to "well, i can only compete with this stuff so please, do not touch it".
stylin, tardli and sicarius are probably the best trs around. thats the result of the fight. if it wasnt for shocking and itc the fight would have lasted less than 15 seconds. everytime aryoux can touch him its basically a fatality.
stylin, tardli and sicarius are probably the best trs around. thats the result of the fight. if it wasnt for shocking and itc the fight would have lasted less than 15 seconds. everytime aryoux can touch him its basically a fatality.
When can ayroux touch him? When he is outplaying him or here and there with Hidden Daggers. Finds him in stealth through prediction--->he is outplaying the TR ability to evade/hide, through personal skills/experience Holds Unstoppable and manages to predict TR's smoke bomb--->he is outplaying the TR
Examine the fight close up:
- Keep an eye on ayroux setup he picked up for this match: there's no burst power. He maxed Sure Strike. Dagger, battlefury, daring shout, with Destroyer and Weapon master as passive. If he got stamina drain, it means he can outrun the TR with this setup. Double mark is piercing damage, which explains the damage to DC in EAS. So basically, if using stamina drains both TR and GWF, he gets the edge thanks to BF stamina refill. Still, he must anticipate the position of stealthed TR, when possible. Then BF+stamina drain allows him to "glue" to the TR.
- T.Fey on GWF vs Vorpal i see on TR. Vorpal crit is reduced by tenacity. T.Fey outperforms the enchants, reduces by a lot SE hits and damage incoming, while T.Neg increases self healing. I think a big role here is the T.Fey vs Vorpal interaction, that allows the GWF to mitigate incoming damage by a lot, while TR vorpal basically is countered by Tenacity and doesn't help him survive/ mitigate ayroux damage. So basically what happens is that T.Fey allows ayroux to survive long enough to use his personal skills to catch the TR in a tiny window of opportunity, pressuring him and countering smoke bomb with a flawless timing of his unstoppable.
Now let's say you give the TR 10k melee at-will (not CoS obviously), 40k lashing blade. Let's say it's 10k duelist flurry to match sure strike (both melee, both follow the enemy on a short distance). But you make SE mitigated by unstoppable/ sprint on the other side, and non-spammable.
Let's say TR gets monster damage but that is harder to land and is affected by sprint/unstoppable DR, allowing for skill-based defensive tactics by ayroux.
Do you think the result would change?
I think that if ayroux can catch a MI-Sabo, he can most likely outplay the same TR with the above changes.
On the other side, i also think that if the case is that ayroux was using stamina drain with BF on, then it's more like the broken overload interaction with battlefury allowed him to out-run the TR, cutting the TR ability to kite by a huge amount. Which means that without stamina drain the TR would roll around so enough to kite the GWF forever.
There's more than raw damage going on in that fight, in my opinion.
It's confusing but i see a full sure strike rotation, so i'd say SS and some eLoL procs. Trying to reverse-engineering his build:
i place my bet on 4 points relentless BF, 3 focused destroyer, 3 Executioner's style. Now there i see 3 full destroyer stacks+10full capstone stacks+TR mark+DS mark+hidden daggers buff and T.Fey buff, and after the first SS hit (34k) all the others should be affected by executioner's style bugg (18% at 3 points) and the last 2 movements or 3 movements are under artifact main hand effect buff on SS. Won't do the math but it's an army of SS buffs piling up on after another. See what i think are some nasty mark procs (8k crit proc on the 34k crit hit, yellow procs are from marks i guess) or eLoL set procs, or a mix of the two.
But the big hits (34k+) are sure strike with all the listed buff piled up together. In fact, those are 4*35k to 43k hits, and you see ayroux executing all the 4 SS movements. It's hard to notice because he is lagging in the video, so the numbers pop a few milliseconds after the animation.
To be honest i'd appreciate a lot a shift from low efficiency-monster damage to at least medium efficiency-high damage for GWF, with some rework of the paths.
In a normal situation the TR would've rolled away and dodged at least 3 of those monster hits, but i believe ayroux was draining his stamina, keeping him in range of his at-wills. That build and rotation is what he advocated for a X number of times, a GWF that delivers his damage from hard-hitting at-wills. And a berserker.
But i can tell you that without T.Fey, or with a T.Fey fixed with 10s uptime and 20s cooldown (no more 100% uptime), the TR would be able to time his SE and hits to deal 18% more damage to ayroux. Which means he would have a much better chance to take him down in those moments when ayroux is at low HP. This is what i mean when i say that current BiS GWF performances and survivability comes mainly from enchants. Fix the enchant and a GWF becomes not hard to burst at the start of the fight, when he's more vulnerable.
I think the second viable enchant is terror, cause right now BiS players boost 20k+ power. Debuffing it by 40% means you take away 8k power from them, which should equal to a 20% loss in power damage multiplier (8k/400=20).
But that T.Fey vs Vorpal and stamina drain are, in my opinion, what decided the fight in the end.
Clonky, oh clonky. Firstly, I asked a question, unlike somebody who sports a TR in blues, I don't presume to know the playstyle of a GWF because I do not main one, therefore I asked a legit question, not a suggestion. Thank you icy for answering my question.
Truth is, I have no idea why clonky likes to antagonize TRs (me and morenthar, hedgebet, kwes) even though we are probably the last TRs who are not biased. Heck we advocate nerfs where warranted.
I always toggle played between MI and WK, I may not have 4K iLvL, but I have 3.4~ and a whole lot of respec tokens and two years of PvP and theorycrafting and preview testing under my belt to say confidently that I know every little tidbit of my class. I don't feel underpowered against the GWF as a WK, and when I'm playing MI, you to better not be on the receiving end of a ~200K SE,SoD combo.
You just can't admit you have no dispute with me and your first instinct is to "pick a fight" with everyone LOL. I accept your apology (or whatever that is)
Comments
And no, it's not like "i can't beat you with the path i chose". It's a fair and true point-by-point description of how current META GWF (destroyer) interacts with current META TR (MI/Sabo).
Sentinel and Instigator are currently way weaker than destroyer so it's more like i wrote "GWF at its best vs TR at its best is like this". Also, on a side note, i can fight back at TRs basically because after 2 years of PvP and since i play a TR myself (only lvl 64 but still, get the idea of how the class works) i can put together different points of view of the class.
@Morenthar: my post is not a complaint. It's only a description of the current status of a META GWF vs META TR. I already described my ideas about buffs to TR to compensate a tone down of current broken MI/Sabo mechanics, so it's not like my position is "nerf all the weapons TRs have" but rather "replace lame overpowered mechanics with something effective but, at the same time, in line with basic mechanics of the game".
I did already meat TR´s that can spam SE in very short time?
First SE my 95k HP and next a Hunter in 5 feet away , all full tenacity set, less than10 seconds between
interestingly i did not see a DC-sigil pop up, but my eyes may be weak.
Juan-Ce or Yuen-DE named ...forgot, its very effective in a pug match and it carries the group, like GWF carries a group of pugs if equipped.
As a warlock its exactly like this: You see the TR vanish 30 feet away and next few seconds you are dead and there is nothing you can do, no shadow slip helps, nothing...yes get GF sigil, get Forgehammer of gond...TR just interrupts his animation seeing it popping up, waits 10 seconds...SE
Thats why GWF and warlock just needs some help like lots of times postetd, shadowslip and sprint on a unmitigateble layer against piercing f.e., this would be sufficient in most cases and its possible by doing so that these classes get overbuffed in some aspects, GWF now hardly to counter from any class and fotm
....warlock maybe fine, depends
Between Smoke bomb and surprise... it is a real blood bath
URLORD
I don't play an MI sab, but I do fairly well against them and I would give myself the edge in most match ups (not that I am particularly skilled or anything but I tend to take out MI sabs over my IL unless they are sporting the drains). Much comes from experience as well and that overconfidence which swells in the MI sab ranks. This, though, is true for most classes fighting most overs that experience dictates the tactics and often the outcome. It almost sounds like you are saying that you can hold your own against MI sab and that it bothers you that it is not as easy as versus other classes and since you don't seem to find that bothersome it begs the question of whether you consider yourself to be better skilled than all you face by default (if you can follow what I mean by this).
Unleash The Wolves- HR Lvl 70 (PVE)
<font color="Aquamarine">"Non-Pay-To-Win"</font>
I hunt GWF "Magik" on sight.
Yet he comes on here and crys nerf lmao l2p
It was just comparing stamina regeneration. I mentioned Battlefury cause it refills stamina, but it's an encounter. If you compare TR basic stamina regeneration to GWF stamina regeneration, it's faster. Way faster.
And no, i never wrote that i'm the most skilled player always.
More like many TRs tend to be predictable, and make some mistakes, and after 2 years fighting them and knowing the class, i have some knowledge that allows me to counter them.
But i can tell you that there's an abyss between the average overconfident MI/Sabo, and an experienced TR who actually fine tuned his skills and rotation. But this is not even the point because my original post was not about my personal experience.
I simply wrote down simple mechanics. You can take it the way you want but i simply described how certain TR mechanics and powers, interact with GWF mechanics and powers.
Also: i didn't even expressed any statement, but if you read what BiS PvPers write, they will tell you a BiS, skilled and experienced GWF vs equally BiS, skilled and experienced TR, usually results in an almost full victory of the TR.
Everytime i've read a BiS PvPer from the biggest PvP guilds talk about current TR vs current GWF in their META build, they always said TR should never lose and, even if outplayed/ cornered, should never die unless he/ she wants.
And here i'm just reporting simple facts/ mechanics or statements of the players who play the classes to their max, about how the META builds interact.
In between there's a universe of different gear, experience and skill levels, and build variations.
But if you want to truly see how things are, the way is to examine mechanics and see what those who play a class to the max (max gear, max knowledge, max skill), have to say.
So no, i'm not saying things of my own, thinking i'm skilled or special. I'm just reporting facts and statements that are beyond the simple, personal experience of the average player.
If there's something wrong in the description i made of GWF-TR interaction (powers and mechanics), everyone is free to say what is wrong and why.
I am still not sure that is correct on stamina. Are you sure of this and are you comparing the same stamina pool vs the same stamina pool in your tests or, is it as in my case, simply from observation?
Update: I did a real fast comparison on one of my GWF and one of my TR. The TR did indeed refill stamina 1 second faster than the GWF -- but the TR has higher stamina gain than the gwf from items (sorry didn't look to see the amount but will try to later if I get the time).
I could beat 98%+ of the TRs including the ones from average/top PvP guilds but that's mainly because they are either not highly geared (3.5k+ is my standard of highly geared) or hasn't really mastered their class (typical example is the noobs that only know about throwing CoD until they have Daily then SE ones). For those TR that actually knows how to play their class, they should win GWF 99/100 times. In fact I know the difference between the TRs pretty well, but I rather not disclose it as the combos are way too abusive
@Rustlord: Other path does not offer GWF more HP. Senti offers more defense and we all know its useless against Piercing damage.
Another reason why GWF should go Destoyer is because you gain Determination faster, and would have the chance to use Unstoppable before SE hits you to cancel out some damage (using the Temp HP).
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Now when Skill and Gear are both present fighting similar geared/skill opponents, then TR should win 99% of the time vs GWF. I am not gonna bother explaining more details, its been explained hundreds of times all over PvP forum, its the class mechanic, Piercing and how some combo works.
One advise, dont jump into conclusion and tunnel-vision yourself, try to think from different point of views.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Some advice back to you (since you were the only one between the two of us that jumped to any conclusion) is that when someone tries to help you out don't take offense.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
If they had also made similar changes to the scoundrel so that OWTS would not proc its capstone (as well as DS and SB not procing the capstone), and if they had made changes to executioner so that dots/bleeds/boons didn't strip (entirely deny and prevent it being used without even contributing the capstone effect) its capstone I would find at least balance among the paths (still they all have cases of being OP/abusable) but for the devs to make the easiest to play path even easier with this very special consideration and to not apply it to the others seems odd. Maybe if SS didn't proc the capstone when used out of stealth and it did when used in stealth I would not have as much of a problem with it (or if the daze was reduced to an interrupt instead of a 4 second daze as I think SS is so good for its purpose that the 4 second daze is way too strong).
the reason for them doing so is even more obvious than tr using a 1k damage encounter.
As far as im concerned, SS can totally be reworked in a real damaging encounter is this for you would fix the problem
xraw angel should be stylin, the other one is mjolnir aka aryoux
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTiPWvKRDZQ
now lets image this fight without its shocking execution or itc....makes you smile right? it should lol
or a random nebula getting hit for 12k at will while in the astral shield quite fun too
I also see very low efficiency (GWF) vs lame mechanics.
To me, it looks like ayroux is able to outplay the TR. Correct me if i'm wrong. Ayroux:
-predicts his position, finds him through stealth multiple times
-holds his unstoppable and pops it to nullify the predictable smoke bomb pattern of the TR
-times his hits and uses hidden dagger to deplete the TR's stealth/ reveal him for few milliseconds, then use it to track his movements in stealth
-there is not magic power allowing him to hit. He does it through personal skill to hold and time unstoppable on smoke bomb constantly, find the TR when he is invisible, and glue to him. Perfectly time his hits out of the TR ITC/dodges (not sure if stamina drains were used, but i think they were involved)
For example, in my humble opinion, after SEing and hitting a GWF multiple times, dropping a direct smoke bomb is a bad idea because the GWF has unstoppable ready to pop. One time he is also trying to facetank him (happens one time. The TR drops smoke bomb slightly after ayroux goes unstoppable, then tries to facetank him, and gets wrecked). I would, for example, drop smoke bomb one of the times (happens) when ayroux pops unstoppable and the TR kites him through stealth. So i would wait for unstoppable to pop, kite, and as soon as it ends, drop smoke bomb and flurry him/DPS him.
What i think is: does it take more skills to play the way the TR does (stealth-smoke bomb-ITC-SE spam), or the way ayroux does
(find stealth TR, hold and time unstoppable on smoke bomb, time hits and dailies out of the TR ITC/dodge rolls the few seconds he is visible/ vulnerable).
Now imagine a balanced PvP where both classes needed to aim and time their hits, instead of having 1 class relying on overperforming gear/enchants (T.Fey,-T.Neg-eLoL set) to be strong (try a GWF in PvP using soulforged and another weapon enchant different from T.Fey) and prediction, and the other relegated to a lame and skill-less type of gameplay because all other paths are underperforming.
We'll never get that if the feedback is limited to "well, i can only compete with this stuff so please, do not touch it".
thats the result of the fight.
if it wasnt for shocking and itc the fight would have lasted less than 15 seconds.
everytime aryoux can touch him its basically a fatality.
Finds him in stealth through prediction--->he is outplaying the TR ability to evade/hide, through personal skills/experience
Holds Unstoppable and manages to predict TR's smoke bomb--->he is outplaying the TR
Examine the fight close up:
- Keep an eye on ayroux setup he picked up for this match: there's no burst power. He maxed Sure Strike. Dagger, battlefury, daring shout, with Destroyer and Weapon master as passive. If he got stamina drain, it means he can outrun the TR with this setup. Double mark is piercing damage, which explains the damage to DC in EAS. So basically, if using stamina drains both TR and GWF, he gets the edge thanks to BF stamina refill.
Still, he must anticipate the position of stealthed TR, when possible. Then BF+stamina drain allows him to "glue" to the TR.
- T.Fey on GWF vs Vorpal i see on TR. Vorpal crit is reduced by tenacity. T.Fey outperforms the enchants, reduces by a lot SE hits and damage incoming, while T.Neg increases self healing. I think a big role here is the T.Fey vs Vorpal interaction, that allows the GWF to mitigate incoming damage by a lot, while TR vorpal basically is countered by Tenacity and doesn't help him survive/ mitigate ayroux damage.
So basically what happens is that T.Fey allows ayroux to survive long enough to use his personal skills to catch the TR in a tiny window of opportunity, pressuring him and countering smoke bomb with a flawless timing of his unstoppable.
Now let's say you give the TR 10k melee at-will (not CoS obviously), 40k lashing blade. Let's say it's 10k duelist flurry to match sure strike (both melee, both follow the enemy on a short distance).
But you make SE mitigated by unstoppable/ sprint on the other side, and non-spammable.
Let's say TR gets monster damage but that is harder to land and is affected by sprint/unstoppable DR, allowing for skill-based defensive tactics by ayroux.
Do you think the result would change?
I think that if ayroux can catch a MI-Sabo, he can most likely outplay the same TR with the above changes.
On the other side, i also think that if the case is that ayroux was using stamina drain with BF on, then it's more like the broken overload interaction with battlefury allowed him to out-run the TR, cutting the TR ability to kite by a huge amount. Which means that without stamina drain the TR would roll around so enough to kite the GWF forever.
There's more than raw damage going on in that fight, in my opinion.
can someone tell me where those 40k monster procs at 8:00 come from?
Trying to reverse-engineering his build:
i place my bet on 4 points relentless BF, 3 focused destroyer, 3 Executioner's style.
Now there i see 3 full destroyer stacks+10full capstone stacks+TR mark+DS mark+hidden daggers buff and T.Fey buff, and after the first SS hit (34k) all the others should be affected by executioner's style bugg (18% at 3 points) and the last 2 movements or 3 movements are under artifact main hand effect buff on SS. Won't do the math but it's an army of SS buffs piling up on after another. See what i think are some nasty mark procs (8k crit proc on the 34k crit hit, yellow procs are from marks i guess) or eLoL set procs, or a mix of the two.
But the big hits (34k+) are sure strike with all the listed buff piled up together. In fact, those are 4*35k to 43k hits, and you see ayroux executing all the 4 SS movements. It's hard to notice because he is lagging in the video, so the numbers pop a few milliseconds after the animation.
To be honest i'd appreciate a lot a shift from low efficiency-monster damage to at least medium efficiency-high damage for GWF, with some rework of the paths.
In a normal situation the TR would've rolled away and dodged at least 3 of those monster hits, but i believe ayroux was draining his stamina, keeping him in range of his at-wills.
That build and rotation is what he advocated for a X number of times, a GWF that delivers his damage from hard-hitting at-wills. And a berserker.
But i can tell you that without T.Fey, or with a T.Fey fixed with 10s uptime and 20s cooldown (no more 100% uptime), the TR would be able to time his SE and hits to deal 18% more damage to ayroux. Which means he would have a much better chance to take him down in those moments when ayroux is at low HP.
This is what i mean when i say that current BiS GWF performances and survivability comes mainly from enchants. Fix the enchant and a GWF becomes not hard to burst at the start of the fight, when he's more vulnerable.
I think the second viable enchant is terror, cause right now BiS players boost 20k+ power. Debuffing it by 40% means you take away 8k power from them, which should equal to a 20% loss in power damage multiplier (8k/400=20).
But that T.Fey vs Vorpal and stamina drain are, in my opinion, what decided the fight in the end.
Truth is, I have no idea why clonky likes to antagonize TRs (me and morenthar, hedgebet, kwes) even though we are probably the last TRs who are not biased. Heck we advocate nerfs where warranted.
I always toggle played between MI and WK, I may not have 4K iLvL, but I have 3.4~ and a whole lot of respec tokens and two years of PvP and theorycrafting and preview testing under my belt to say confidently that I know every little tidbit of my class. I don't feel underpowered against the GWF as a WK, and when I'm playing MI, you to better not be on the receiving end of a ~200K SE,SoD combo.