Still with that non-sense?? GWF's damage come from 2 sources: Feytouched (this is +4k to power when hitting BiS Players) + Lostmauth set (needs a nerf) and Marks, which needs to be fixed for us... Funny thing, again, is that players only ask for a nerf on GWF instead of Feytouched and Lostmauth because you all use them too... Double standards?? where???
According to your version of NWPvP dreamland we've caught glimpses so far, TRs won't be able to hide 100% of the time, won't be able to bypass your defenses, won't be able to gain any initiative in deciding engagement/disengagement, and won't be able to 1~2shot your arsses.
So both parties will be be able to target and hit each other at roughly comparable rates, despite the GWF is infinitely stronger in terms of DPS output.
At the same time, the TR won't really be able to run anytime soon, whereas the GWF is allowed to sprint in and out as he wants without anything stopping it.
CB will just become insta-useless the moment you activate sprint, our ITC will also be reliably penetrated since it won't be able to deflect 100% of the time... while at the same time, our powers that nullify your own Unstoppable are all flushed dow the toilet.
You want our Impossible to Catch to become Possible to Catch, but at the same time you don't want your own Unstoppable being actually Stoppable.
If this isn't a double standard, then tell me, what is?
ROFL just spit out my coffee all over my lab notebook. Glad it was closed. Maybe ITC should just kill us when we activate it :P
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" - Frank Zappa
So TR were broken before strongholds and the new pvp lionsmane gear,nothing has changed. My GWF with full R11 and maxed level lionsmane (+ infused) pvp gear and max level artrifacts and max level arti gear (iL 3992). 126k HP and 51% defence(75% tenacity) etc and still get one shot by a TR while riding my mount in GG pvp. QUYEN-VN deals 135k damage with Shocking Execution !!!! I died from Full 126k HP from that one shot and was riding my mount at full speed at the time!(110% speed white tiger) When are you going to fix this HAMSTER,its completely unacceptable that ONE class should have damage that ignores EVERYTHING including tenacity!!
By D&D rules Rogues strike a vital spot for extra damage (SE?), have an almost supernatural knack for avoiding danger (ITC?).
QUYEN-VN deals 135k damage with Shocking Execution !!!! I died from Full 126k HP from that one shot and was riding my mount at full speed at the time!(110% speed white tiger) When are you going to fix this HAMSTER,its completely unacceptable that ONE class should have damage that ignores EVERYTHING including tenacity!!
This need not happen. Just have a GF sigil or Forgehammer of Gond artifact ready and pop it when you hear that SE sound.. you will be alright
I see, thanks for sharing. Mmmmh...You can get offensive ArP boon if you don't have it already, should help if your ArP is low. I've raised my non-BiS GWF from 100k HP to around 112k and plan on going higher if i can. Using savages right now but with SH LS boon i'll see if, later, switching to radiants might be a good choice, perhaps, since i'd get all the LS i need from boon.
I use lathander set. I know Negation is considered BiS but your arch-enemy, the BiS SE-spamming TR, still ignores its DR. So i'd say, if you get the chance to put your hands on an eye of lathander, why not try what i use now: lathander set+SF (trascendent in your case)+mythic wheel.
At 166k HP, even if SE'd and then killed/finished, you would come back at 40k+10k--->50k HP, then shoot a mythic water wheel for high healing ticks+T.SF heal (small but adds up), and you will be back to full HP in no time. Then, at 166k HP you can last enough (75s) to have your SF and wheel back up.
when you hate TR´s that much everything seems to be possible
Why do i need to love them? After whole mod 5,6 1 shot SEs and part of mod 7 with no chance to fight back? kinda nuts. I respect Baldek and Lord Floopy, Terry and other TR friends. Never asked them not use SE on me but they just don't. Caz it sh1ty skill. It's not their fault like not fault that dc/palies unkilleble. We all know who's fault/poor untested decision and ignored feedback from players who did test it.
I am oneshotted all days by TR´s and some of them can SE in a very high frequenze about every 20 seconds i guess no its not very skill based gameplay and I hate it too, but my wrlock only got 95k HP so I have to live with them I am working on wheel and sigil of GWF for HP and plan to raise my HP in mod 8 (if I continue playing this game) but i fear the moment I go full HP SE will do 150k+ damage in next mod and I always have to deal with this HAMSTER
They have to Fix Piercing dmg!, (or Rework or what ever....)
Okey it Ignores all DR fine Good for all TR's, But it should NOT Ignore Tenacity! omg it's enough with all these Free Advantage's for TR's,
Stealt with 100% Free Crit, Impossible to catch: its not only CC-immune also Immune to DMG, that deflection is too high (bugged), smokebomb spam, courage breaker over 8 seconds this it's too much, especially for classes like GWF we can't move we STUCK and that place (CW for for example can keep moving thanks to the REAL-Dodge skill)and there's many more but im tired to talk about when NOTHING happens...
<::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ●
LOL ^ yeah just take stealth, smoke bomb, itc, se away from TRs, all these people crying for a tr nerf still, maybe yall should learn how to work on your class and stay out of pvp till you get the right build and gear and even then you still need skill, what yall fail to realize is that TRs are useless without any of those powers, yall want to 1v1 us without stealth or itc as if we were tanks
Traditional DnD rogue/thief is a skirmishing class, not a "striker" or primary vanguard within a battle. They hide in shadows and BACKSTAB (SE, huh huh what?!). They are sneaky...drains wearing...bloodbath spamming...CB noodling...shithead scoundrels/assassins. Sneaky and hated by all.
Don't change a thing until you change the very nature of this HAMSTER adaptation of 4th edition rules merged with crappy MMO stats. I live with it and still I pvp (badly I might add). My main is a CW but I play my TR equally in pvp. CW Shield/DC AS/OP "bubble of HAMSTER you rogue" and maybe those laserbeams of pally love too, mitigate piercing. Right? Seems so.
thoughts/questions/comments/concerns?
I AM HERE FOR YOU GWFs I feel your pain (Bill Clinton voice) when you die, I...FEEL...YOUR...PAIN...
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" - Frank Zappa
0
Options
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
They hide in shadows and BACKSTAB (SE, huh huh what?!).
What shadows? They can hide in a barren desert during the day from satellites, drones, monsters with a million eyes, and the freaking Predator.
Turn shadow rendering on and they appear!!!! HAHAHAHA j/k
I see you point, but my premise remains. Shadowdancer prestige class in 3rd edition (HIPS = hide in plain site) seems to be the inspiration for this class. Don't know other MMOs, never played them, don't really want to. So the argument "no other MMO does this" is lost on me quite frankly. Check out what ol' Putin up there previously said. He adapted and he is indeed hard to HAMSTER kill. HPs are key, might give up damage...I had to get HPs for my CW. It helps and nearly erases the efficacy of SE.
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" - Frank Zappa
According to your version of NWPvP dreamland we've caught glimpses so far, TRs won't be able to hide 100% of the time, won't be able to bypass your defenses, won't be able to gain any initiative in deciding engagement/disengagement, and won't be able to 1~2shot your arsses.
So both parties will be be able to target and hit each other at roughly comparable rates, despite the GWF is infinitely stronger in terms of DPS output.
At the same time, the TR won't really be able to run anytime soon, whereas the GWF is allowed to sprint in and out as he wants without anything stopping it.
CB will just become insta-useless the moment you activate sprint, our ITC will also be reliably penetrated since it won't be able to deflect 100% of the time... while at the same time, our powers that nullify your own Unstoppable are all flushed dow the toilet.
You want our Impossible to Catch to become Possible to Catch, but at the same time you don't want your own Unstoppable being actually Stoppable.
If this isn't a double standard, then tell me, what is?
Ok i was reading this and tried to compare this to reality. Reality GWF vs TR is:
- My Daily is nullified by your shift dodge and can fail. You dailies (SE and CB) completely ignore my shift (sprint). - your stamina refills 3x faster than that of a GWF (base) - You class mechanic (stealth) allows you to get in and out of a fight at your own will, and i don't really have a counter except my own skills to predict your moves and anticipate your movement. It also is fully controlled by your side. GWF class mechanic (unstoppable) is available only after you deal a certain amount of damage to him. Your shadowy opportunity pierces its 30% DR as if it was not even there and your class mechanic and capstone (stealth refill) make sure that when the GWF goes unstoppable, you can reliably prevent him from fully use his own capstone (destroyer purpose stacks). - My damage is reduced by your DR and tenacity and nullified by your dodge. Your piercing damage ignores completely my DR, tenacity, shift mechanic and class mechanic.
So basically, in the real world, the TR class has an easy counter for everything a GWF can throw at them, and at the same time have offensive powers that completely ignore what a GWF can use to protect himself.
Looks like TRs are already living in their own NWPvP dreamland vs GWFs?
I was not aware that TR stamina regen was three times that of a GWF and I play both classes and never seemed to notice it. I am not saying that this isn't true but it is odd to me that if it were that amount that I would not notice it. I know on my GWF I can regain stamina from an encounter, though, where on my TR I cannot.
But to your point you are mostly describing an MI saboteur vs a destroyer and that comes off a bit as "I cannot beat you with the path I want to PvP with vs the one you want to PvP with". Now I have long advocated that the MI saboteur had the best of all worlds but still realize it makes your argument weaker when you don't actually stipulate the case and do a general baseline of all gwf vs all tr (even though most gwf pvp as a destroyer and a lot of tr pvp as an MI sab).
Also on the flip side these same choices taken to PvE the gwf will do double or more the damage of the TR. Now I know this is a PvP discussion but one has to consider if all the changes you wanted implanted were performed this particular TR would suck both in PvP and in PvE.
I could handpick the number of GWFs here (not all) who sell false information to brainwash people to believing what they wanted you to believe. But facts, for once;
The one shot 130K shocking is a First Strike build, cannot be spammed, cannot be good in premades, and has a high fail rate since FS only works once in combat. An Executioner TR does this with First Strike + Shadowborn.
The 50K average shocking spam is done with DC artifact, snail and Saboteur, that even when using first strike, couldn't one shot with it except low-hp pugs.
THE COURAGE BREAKER TR is not one shotting you with shocking and he is most definitely not killing you with a CC daily that does 5-10K damage.
The knife-chucking TR with piercing feat Shadowy Opportunity does not quantify as a permastealth TR because they burn through several iterations of stealth really fast to proc Shadowy Opportunity.
A "permastealth" TR is a build that stays 100% in stealth, does not use or need ITC therefore any TR using ITC to cover up a vulnerability window between stealths is not in permanent stealth. A legit perma TR has low damage and is rendered utterly useless by the node capping change in domination. So stop insinuating that permastealth is anything related to the TR today. --Long may its memory live.
Scoundrels can't perma CC you. MYTH.
TR has 3x more stamina than GWF or any class. MYTH. My TR has probably had the most number of dodges than any other player, ever. I spec'd specifically that way once upon a time and my max was a net 175% of my stamina refill and +25% of my meter. And that is with using a foodbuff that, ding ding ding, everybody has access to.
20K% deflection on ITC sounds like a bigger advantage than it actually is. If we go by that math, then surely Negation is also 12,000 Defense, Feytouched 7,200 power 7,200 of a defensive stuff worth of debuff.. Unstoppable is what 50,000 HP? Destroyer stacks would be around 20,000 Power. It sounds ridiculous when we think of it that way, doesn't it?
Most importantly, not all TRs are playing MI sabo, so do not pigeonhole us to the one copy-paste build you hate so much. Don't call me potato or corpse jump my WK after holding up a solid 4v1, or call me out as a SE-abuser when you are clearly not even a paragon close.
@hedgebet: don't know if 3 times, but for sure TR stamina regeneration is way, way faster unless the GWF gives up one offensive encounter for BF (speed demon build).
And no, it's not like "i can't beat you with the path i chose". It's a fair and true point-by-point description of how current META GWF (destroyer) interacts with current META TR (MI/Sabo). Sentinel and Instigator are currently way weaker than destroyer so it's more like i wrote "GWF at its best vs TR at its best is like this". Also, on a side note, i can fight back at TRs basically because after 2 years of PvP and since i play a TR myself (only lvl 64 but still, get the idea of how the class works) i can put together different points of view of the class.
@Morenthar: my post is not a complaint. It's only a description of the current status of a META GWF vs META TR. I already described my ideas about buffs to TR to compensate a tone down of current broken MI/Sabo mechanics, so it's not like my position is "nerf all the weapons TRs have" but rather "replace lame overpowered mechanics with something effective but, at the same time, in line with basic mechanics of the game".
@pando83 Is it not possible to stack higher than 170K hp, or upwards of 200K at BiS level even if it cost you to give up Destroyer? I can imagine it's going to be a horrible build vs other classes, but high HP is the nemesis of any shocking build. Can't one shot you, can't spam enough SE on you.
@hedgebet: don't know if 3 times, but for sure TR stamina regeneration is way, way faster unless the GWF gives up one offensive encounter for BF (speed demon build).
And no, it's not like "i can't beat you with the path i chose". It's a fair and true point-by-point description of how current META GWF (destroyer) interacts with current META TR (MI/Sabo). Sentinel and Instigator are currently way weaker than destroyer so it's more like i wrote "GWF at its best vs TR at its best is like this". Also, on a side note, i can fight back at TRs basically because after 2 years of PvP and since i play a TR myself (only lvl 64 but still, get the idea of how the class works) i can put together different points of view of the class.
@Morenthar: my post is not a complaint. It's only a description of the current status of a META GWF vs META TR. I already described my ideas about buffs to TR to compensate a tone down of current broken MI/Sabo mechanics, so it's not like my position is "nerf all the weapons TRs have" but rather "replace lame overpowered mechanics with something effective but, at the same time, in line with basic mechanics of the game".
TR counters GWF best thats what I feal on my GWF and its even harder for taht class than for a warlock most time I did already meat TR´s that can spam SE in very short time? First SE my 95k HP and next a Hunter in 5 feet away , all full tenacity set, less than10 seconds between interestingly i did not see a DC-sigil pop up, but my eyes may be weak. Juan-Ce or Yuen-DE named ...forgot, its very effective in a pug match and it carries the group, like GWF carries a group of pugs if equipped. As a warlock its exactly like this: You see the TR vanish 30 feet away and next few seconds you are dead and there is nothing you can do, no shadow slip helps, nothing...yes get GF sigil, get Forgehammer of gond...TR just interrupts his animation seeing it popping up, waits 10 seconds...SE
Thats why GWF and warlock just needs some help like lots of times postetd, shadowslip and sprint on a unmitigateble layer against piercing f.e., this would be sufficient in most cases and its possible by doing so that these classes get overbuffed in some aspects, GWF now hardly to counter from any class and fotm ....warlock maybe fine, depends
Post edited by schietindebux on
0
Options
urlord283Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,084Arc User
My GF is no slouch but a TR can take me down with out any ability to answer...
Between Smoke bomb and surprise... it is a real blood bath
Comments
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
I've raised my non-BiS GWF from 100k HP to around 112k and plan on going higher if i can. Using savages right now but with SH LS boon i'll see if, later, switching to radiants might be a good choice, perhaps, since i'd get all the LS i need from boon.
I use lathander set. I know Negation is considered BiS but your arch-enemy, the BiS SE-spamming TR, still ignores its DR. So i'd say, if you get the chance to put your hands on an eye of lathander, why not try what i use now: lathander set+SF (trascendent in your case)+mythic wheel.
At 166k HP, even if SE'd and then killed/finished, you would come back at 40k+10k--->50k HP, then shoot a mythic water wheel for high healing ticks+T.SF heal (small but adds up), and you will be back to full HP in no time. Then, at 166k HP you can last enough (75s) to have your SF and wheel back up.
no its not very skill based gameplay and I hate it too, but my wrlock only got 95k HP so I have to live with them
I am working on wheel and sigil of GWF for HP and plan to raise my HP in mod 8 (if I continue playing this game)
but i fear the moment I go full HP SE will do 150k+ damage in next mod and I always have to deal with this HAMSTER
Okey it Ignores all DR fine Good for all TR's,
But it should NOT Ignore Tenacity! omg it's enough with all these Free Advantage's for TR's,
Stealt with 100% Free Crit, Impossible to catch: its not only CC-immune also Immune to DMG, that deflection is too high (bugged), smokebomb spam, courage breaker over 8 seconds this it's too much, especially for classes like GWF we can't move we STUCK and that place (CW for for example can keep moving thanks to the REAL-Dodge skill)and there's many more but im tired to talk about when NOTHING happens...
Don't change a thing until you change the very nature of this HAMSTER adaptation of 4th edition rules merged with crappy MMO stats. I live with it and still I pvp (badly I might add). My main is a CW but I play my TR equally in pvp. CW Shield/DC AS/OP "bubble of HAMSTER you rogue" and maybe those laserbeams of pally love too, mitigate piercing. Right? Seems so.
thoughts/questions/comments/concerns?
I AM HERE FOR YOU GWFs I feel your pain (Bill Clinton voice) when you die, I...FEEL...YOUR...PAIN...
I see you point, but my premise remains. Shadowdancer prestige class in 3rd edition (HIPS = hide in plain site) seems to be the inspiration for this class. Don't know other MMOs, never played them, don't really want to. So the argument "no other MMO does this" is lost on me quite frankly. Check out what ol' Putin up there previously said. He adapted and he is indeed hard to HAMSTER kill. HPs are key, might give up damage...I had to get HPs for my CW. It helps and nearly erases the efficacy of SE.
Wow this guy needs a break
- My Daily is nullified by your shift dodge and can fail. You dailies (SE and CB) completely ignore my shift (sprint).
- your stamina refills 3x faster than that of a GWF (base)
- You class mechanic (stealth) allows you to get in and out of a fight at your own will, and i don't really have a counter except my own skills to predict your moves and anticipate your movement. It also is fully controlled by your side. GWF class mechanic (unstoppable) is available only after you deal a certain amount of damage to him. Your shadowy opportunity pierces its 30% DR as if it was not even there and your class mechanic and capstone (stealth refill) make sure that when the GWF goes unstoppable, you can reliably prevent him from fully use his own capstone (destroyer purpose stacks).
- My damage is reduced by your DR and tenacity and nullified by your dodge. Your piercing damage ignores completely my DR, tenacity, shift mechanic and class mechanic.
So basically, in the real world, the TR class has an easy counter for everything a GWF can throw at them, and at the same time have offensive powers that completely ignore what a GWF can use to protect himself.
Looks like TRs are already living in their own NWPvP dreamland vs GWFs?
But to your point you are mostly describing an MI saboteur vs a destroyer and that comes off a bit as "I cannot beat you with the path I want to PvP with vs the one you want to PvP with". Now I have long advocated that the MI saboteur had the best of all worlds but still realize it makes your argument weaker when you don't actually stipulate the case and do a general baseline of all gwf vs all tr (even though most gwf pvp as a destroyer and a lot of tr pvp as an MI sab).
Also on the flip side these same choices taken to PvE the gwf will do double or more the damage of the TR. Now I know this is a PvP discussion but one has to consider if all the changes you wanted implanted were performed this particular TR would suck both in PvP and in PvE.
And no, it's not like "i can't beat you with the path i chose". It's a fair and true point-by-point description of how current META GWF (destroyer) interacts with current META TR (MI/Sabo).
Sentinel and Instigator are currently way weaker than destroyer so it's more like i wrote "GWF at its best vs TR at its best is like this". Also, on a side note, i can fight back at TRs basically because after 2 years of PvP and since i play a TR myself (only lvl 64 but still, get the idea of how the class works) i can put together different points of view of the class.
@Morenthar: my post is not a complaint. It's only a description of the current status of a META GWF vs META TR. I already described my ideas about buffs to TR to compensate a tone down of current broken MI/Sabo mechanics, so it's not like my position is "nerf all the weapons TRs have" but rather "replace lame overpowered mechanics with something effective but, at the same time, in line with basic mechanics of the game".
I did already meat TR´s that can spam SE in very short time?
First SE my 95k HP and next a Hunter in 5 feet away , all full tenacity set, less than10 seconds between
interestingly i did not see a DC-sigil pop up, but my eyes may be weak.
Juan-Ce or Yuen-DE named ...forgot, its very effective in a pug match and it carries the group, like GWF carries a group of pugs if equipped.
As a warlock its exactly like this: You see the TR vanish 30 feet away and next few seconds you are dead and there is nothing you can do, no shadow slip helps, nothing...yes get GF sigil, get Forgehammer of gond...TR just interrupts his animation seeing it popping up, waits 10 seconds...SE
Thats why GWF and warlock just needs some help like lots of times postetd, shadowslip and sprint on a unmitigateble layer against piercing f.e., this would be sufficient in most cases and its possible by doing so that these classes get overbuffed in some aspects, GWF now hardly to counter from any class and fotm
....warlock maybe fine, depends
Between Smoke bomb and surprise... it is a real blood bath
URLORD