When you make a change to a game and the players get upset and scream "What?!?! Now I have to log in?!?!" this indicates to me that there is a deep, deep problem somewhere.
Logging into a game should be a fun experience you look forward to, not a bloody chore.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
Yeah, it often takes me a good 5 to 10 minutes just to log in fully. Huge pain.
Though, a large part of that is probably my computer not the game server.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,217Arc User
Because of this change, I was forced to spend more time in the game but less time to play the game. For many times, I just need to stay in the game but not playing and wait for the tasks to finish in the next few minutes and then another 10 minutes (for the next batch from different character), ....
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I have a leadership army.....and now I feel robbed.
Right on brother, how the heck did they think I'd afford all those GMOPs, of course I needed a leadership army. I used to do leadership on my work pc, on my phone in the bathroom, on a tablet watching tv. Some of these task take like 2-4 hours, I can't be in the game all day long, I have a real life. I can however, spare a few minutes on a browser. I'm so much less engaged in the game now. Soon I'll forget why I even play it.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
they dont care.. thats all you can fathom at this point, if they lose whomever is here, they dont care, they are working on restarting over with a new playerbase, whether they get enough new players to continue is a different matter.
right now , they think they can do anything, due to xbox population, but its really cheesy what they have done overall this mod to the game.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
When you make a change to a game and the players get upset and scream "What?!?! Now I have to log in?!?!" this indicates to me that there is a deep, deep problem somewhere.
Logging into a game should be a fun experience you look forward to, not a bloody chore.
The gateway is just as much a part of the game as standing around near some campfire somewhere, refreshing professions. As others have pointed out, the problem isn't leadership or the the gateway - the problem is the lack of proper security/anti-botting measures.
I only hope that the steps that were taken are merely temporary, and that a proper fix is forthcoming.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
No, the problem is my ad income getting cut in HALF and all my freakin assets losing value. I used to try and keep all my chars(one of each class) "up-to-date". That goal has been crushed starting in mod 4. I play 1 now. I have one I dabble with and the 6 others have become mules.
Anyway, blah blah blah, rage, blah blah...
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
Honestly, I'm not too concerned about "now my leadership assets have depreciated in value!" That's just an acceptable risk of doing business. As the market evolves, the things you invested in lose or gain value.
I bought some Dragon Eggs (somewhat coincidentally) before the latest patch, and their price went up. Same with Unified Elements. Am I saying "woo hoo! Best patch ever!" because my net worth just went up? Nah. That's just the way it goes.
The real issue isn't past investment. I mean, I know people feel cheated, but from the perspective of the NWO Team, they have to think about going forwards. Leadership nerfs aren't a problem because of all the energy people invested into leadership (I finally broke down and bought extra character slots the day before these changes were implemented), they're a problem because life is difficult going forwards.
THAT BEING SAID, it'd be super nice if there was some kind of buyback program for depreciated assets. Really, the professions system as a whole is wildly under-developed. They should make it so that each profession has the ability to grant you something. I like the idea of a vendor that sells "orders" to be "fulfilled" of various items that can be made via professions. Filling these orders would grant you some currency that can be used in a shop that sells RP items that bind on pickup (the idea being to not add extra fuel for the bots). Theoretical shop could also sell GMOPs and basically any other item that currently requires large amounts of AD to get.
You wouldn't be able to use this currency to get zen or AD for trading on the AH, but the idea is that you could still use professions as a way to build up your character during your off time.
Leadership would exist to tie your character in to all other profession tasks. For instance, imagine that each leadership task rewards not AD and whatnot, but profession resources (well, they've already been doing that) and contracts. When used, the contract basically gives you a short duration (48 hours maybe?) quest, and you have that much time to fulfill the terms.
You could even have certain profession tasks that only exist while you have certain contracts active. This would be great for getting rid of the deluge of excess profession ingredients that are downright useless. But the best part is that it's more interactive and complicated than simply logging into the gateway once and running the same tasks over and over again. You're actually managing your profession tasks. This idea rewards being trained in multiple professions (because if you have 0 tailoring skill and get a tailoring contract well, SOL). You can't just make 20000 Cloth gloves +1 because those things use up inventory space (although with enough bots, yeah, it'd be possible to just mass produce commonly required items for contacts and sell them on the AH).
But the best part is that coding wise, it doesn't really take all that much. You're not adding anything art wise to the game. It all basically just uses the quest interface.
Of course, the real problem is top level management. But still, there are plenty of ways to make the game fun that don't just rely on leadership armies.
When you make a change to a game and the players get upset and scream "What?!?! Now I have to log in?!?!" this indicates to me that there is a deep, deep problem somewhere.
Logging into a game should be a fun experience you look forward to, not a bloody chore.
Maybe the deep, deep problem lies making absurd leaps in logic, how did you conclude that wanting to use the gateway to manage a very tedious process means someone doesn't want to log in game?
Isn't it obvious that this lets you play the game AND manage professions?
Well, ever since they took it down and made us switch characters constantly in game, I am now crashing a lot doing this (and with 22 characters I have a good idea of game flow ). So not only did they remove a great and heavily used feature, it now looks like its breaking the game as all those people that used to use the gateway are now switching characters in game to deal with professions.
Cheers guys, this stuff is really not helping.
Ello
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myles08807Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 409Arc User
Persons who never got involved in the Leadership profession are jumping on the "nerf Leadership" bandwagon and bashing those of us who had the foresight to do so as "not playing the game", and that infuriates me. Of course it was blind luck in my case, because I chose to pursue Leadership with my first toon for the role-playing angle.
I have to say I rather bitterly resent the implication that I'm not "playing the game" when I use the Gateway. Tell me, you who couldn't be bothered to do Leadership and are now quite bothered BY Leadership...How much fan fiction have you written about your professional assets? In what ways have you imaginatively restaged your professional tasks to more closely fit your vision of your roster of characters and the guild they all share?
Yeah, I thought so.
Look, I've been Gateway-deprived for almost a week now, and I'm still churning out the AD. I'm still making the refining limit with all of my top-geared toons, the ones with enough Heroes to keep the time for the longer, large-reward tasks manageable. With my odd work hours, I've just had to figure out when to run shorter tasks and how to allocate assets so that, the next time I'm at the computer, I'm collecting and restarting tasks. I guess I'll learn to live with the nerf...but I don't have to live with people telling me how to "play the game".
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
People who tell you to play the game are full of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
What's not full of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, however, is the suggestion that PWE/Cryptic may have a legitimate interest in changing what the game is, up to and including discouraging leadership (ESPECIALLY on mass character slot accounts). Everyone can do whatever is legal/possible within the system, but that doesn't mean that some aspects of that system may not be problematic for other aspects of the game.
As I've said before, I'd like it if the professions tasks were much more interactive and nuanced.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Tbh, I am all for leadership being removed entirely and having the ad generation in the game e moved to pve content such s dungeons. That way, people are rewarded for playing the game and not for sitting around and doing professions. Also, to put this into context, I have 25 leadership chars and I would still rather have the profession removed. So long as leadership exists, it will be bottable and it will ruin the game.
They should just remove any profession from the Gateway, not just Leadership.
And if you want to remove any AD and RP from Leadership too, then you might as well remove anything sell-/tradeable from any other profession!
While you're at it, make anything bought from the auction house bound to account.
That should do it...
Tbh, I am all for leadership being removed entirely and having the ad generation in the game e moved to pve content such s dungeons. That way, people are rewarded for playing the game and not for sitting around and doing professions. Also, to put this into context, I have 25 leadership chars and I would still rather have the profession removed. So long as leadership exists, it will be bottable and it will ruin the game.
IMO for long time Leadership was a good excuse to say that everything is in range by playing for free. But in same time PWE has been working hard to master "1% of player population gives 99% profit" rule.
"When no appropriate rule applies, make one up."
— (The unwritten rule)
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
Yeah, leadership is basically the "What? Nooooo, we're not pay to win, who told you that?" card. And actually, for the most part, NWO isn't: paying legitimately is so wildly inefficient, it's pretty silly to call NWO P2W.
But, uhh, even as a non-paying customer, I'd almost prefer it if the game were more pay-to-winny, compared to the ridiculous grind of leadership.
Anyone who thinks leadership is quicker to do in game never learned the magic of the browser back button.
click - back - click - back - click
three tasks started....
Now takes me way longer and I cannot update them at lunchtime from work.
Anyone who thinks leadership is quicker to do in game never learned the magic of the browser back button.
click - back - click - back - click
three tasks started....
Now takes me way longer and I cannot update them at lunchtime from work.
We've been analyzing the economy, the AD and all the feedback you guys have given here and have been tweaking our plans based on how everything shifts. We never intended to just turn off Leadership on Gateway and leave it at that. With shifting tides comes shifting maneuvers (is that a saying?). I actually sat down with some devs and went through all 11 pages - when it was just 11 pages. More information to come when the effect of this change has a little more time to settle. Thanks, guys!
Call me Andy (or Strum, or Spider-Man)! Follow Neverwinter on Twitter: NeverwinterGame Like Neverwinter on Facebook: Neverwinter Follow me on Twitter: StrumSlinger
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
I find invocation to actually be my most lucrative method of getting AD right now.
Step 1.) Buy a buncha zen. Hold onto it.
Step 2.) Invoke. Get coupons. Buy things using coupons.
Step 3.) Sell the zen items you got via coupons on the AH.
For instance, a "15% off any item" lets you buy a Coalescent Ward for 850 zen. Selling that on the AH, at 500 AD per zen, would require a breakeven price of 475,000ish, and Coal Wards typically sell for over 500k, so you can feasibly make over 20000 AD in profit just from a single coupon.
Surprised more people haven't been taking advantage of this system (thus driving down prices to the point where it's no longer profitable). I imagine that's why they reduced the coupon drop rate, but hey, that's why I decided that if I can't easily manage leadership with my two new alts (that I purchased the slots for the day before the gateway change) I can at least use them as invoke dolls.
Waiting for Cryptic to make it so items bought with coupons are BTA or some such nonsense.
tbh I'm playing on Xbox, but I'm closely following the situation on PC. Right now, it is still a good experience, but if they would go through with all the changes happening on PC, I'm quite certain that most of the Xbox users would quit.
As we don't have the gateway yet, our progression is much slower in this game, but the prices are sometimes outrages. After almost 4 months we are already at 1:240 exchange rate and have been at 1:290 a couple weeks ago. We are already at a point in this game, where we have not much left to sell in the AH. T2 and artifact belts are at an all-time low thanks to Tiamat and GMoP and others have a super low drop rate.
At least Dragon Hoard Enchantments still seem to work even though imho the drop rate at least in neverdeath was already lowered compared to stuff I got a couple weeks ago. (but nothing official in any patch notes so far)
So my guild and I will keep playing as long as it is still fun and entertaining, when it should become a chore, I'm sadly not that certain about it.
And even though we never got the ability to try out the cool gateway leadership way, we still have a lot of AD-Sellers and it is annoying. That should be prove enough, that "these measurements are against bots", is a false statement and completely irrelevant in fighting those people, but more against the real players playing legit.
I don't believe that arcgames can't see the range of their actions, but I would like to have more insight in the real reasons, rather than just be thrown into the hole and have to dig my way out of there again.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,217Arc User
We've been analyzing the economy, the AD and all the feedback you guys have given here and have been tweaking our plans based on how everything shifts. We never intended to just turn off Leadership on Gateway and leave it at that. With shifting tides comes shifting maneuvers (is that a saying?). I actually sat down with some devs and went through all 11 pages - when it was just 11 pages. More information to come when the effect of this change has a little more time to settle. Thanks, guys!
I don't know why but somehow I have a deeper sinking feeling reading this. I sure hope I am wrong.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I don't know why but somehow I have a deeper sinking feeling reading this. I sure hope I am wrong.
Me too. Well, it could be anything they are planning but my guess is it'll be a nerf to AD from leadership.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
They could very well remove AD from leadership entirely, to be quite frank, and possibly even make items from chests and whatnot bound on pickup. It'd be consistent with their previous decision making.
Whether or not they'd go the extra step to ensure players, uhhh, actually have AD to buy AD related items or not is another question entirely~
Comments
Logging into a game should be a fun experience you look forward to, not a bloody chore.
Though, a large part of that is probably my computer not the game server.
Right on brother, how the heck did they think I'd afford all those GMOPs, of course I needed a leadership army. I used to do leadership on my work pc, on my phone in the bathroom, on a tablet watching tv. Some of these task take like 2-4 hours, I can't be in the game all day long, I have a real life. I can however, spare a few minutes on a browser. I'm so much less engaged in the game now. Soon I'll forget why I even play it.
right now , they think they can do anything, due to xbox population, but its really cheesy what they have done overall this mod to the game.
The gateway is just as much a part of the game as standing around near some campfire somewhere, refreshing professions. As others have pointed out, the problem isn't leadership or the the gateway - the problem is the lack of proper security/anti-botting measures.
I only hope that the steps that were taken are merely temporary, and that a proper fix is forthcoming.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Anyway, blah blah blah, rage, blah blah...
I bought some Dragon Eggs (somewhat coincidentally) before the latest patch, and their price went up. Same with Unified Elements. Am I saying "woo hoo! Best patch ever!" because my net worth just went up? Nah. That's just the way it goes.
The real issue isn't past investment. I mean, I know people feel cheated, but from the perspective of the NWO Team, they have to think about going forwards. Leadership nerfs aren't a problem because of all the energy people invested into leadership (I finally broke down and bought extra character slots the day before these changes were implemented), they're a problem because life is difficult going forwards.
THAT BEING SAID, it'd be super nice if there was some kind of buyback program for depreciated assets. Really, the professions system as a whole is wildly under-developed. They should make it so that each profession has the ability to grant you something. I like the idea of a vendor that sells "orders" to be "fulfilled" of various items that can be made via professions. Filling these orders would grant you some currency that can be used in a shop that sells RP items that bind on pickup (the idea being to not add extra fuel for the bots). Theoretical shop could also sell GMOPs and basically any other item that currently requires large amounts of AD to get.
You wouldn't be able to use this currency to get zen or AD for trading on the AH, but the idea is that you could still use professions as a way to build up your character during your off time.
Leadership would exist to tie your character in to all other profession tasks. For instance, imagine that each leadership task rewards not AD and whatnot, but profession resources (well, they've already been doing that) and contracts. When used, the contract basically gives you a short duration (48 hours maybe?) quest, and you have that much time to fulfill the terms.
You could even have certain profession tasks that only exist while you have certain contracts active. This would be great for getting rid of the deluge of excess profession ingredients that are downright useless. But the best part is that it's more interactive and complicated than simply logging into the gateway once and running the same tasks over and over again. You're actually managing your profession tasks. This idea rewards being trained in multiple professions (because if you have 0 tailoring skill and get a tailoring contract well, SOL). You can't just make 20000 Cloth gloves +1 because those things use up inventory space (although with enough bots, yeah, it'd be possible to just mass produce commonly required items for contacts and sell them on the AH).
But the best part is that coding wise, it doesn't really take all that much. You're not adding anything art wise to the game. It all basically just uses the quest interface.
Of course, the real problem is top level management. But still, there are plenty of ways to make the game fun that don't just rely on leadership armies.
Maybe the deep, deep problem lies making absurd leaps in logic, how did you conclude that wanting to use the gateway to manage a very tedious process means someone doesn't want to log in game?
Isn't it obvious that this lets you play the game AND manage professions?
Cheers guys, this stuff is really not helping.
Ello
I have to say I rather bitterly resent the implication that I'm not "playing the game" when I use the Gateway. Tell me, you who couldn't be bothered to do Leadership and are now quite bothered BY Leadership...How much fan fiction have you written about your professional assets? In what ways have you imaginatively restaged your professional tasks to more closely fit your vision of your roster of characters and the guild they all share?
Yeah, I thought so.
Look, I've been Gateway-deprived for almost a week now, and I'm still churning out the AD. I'm still making the refining limit with all of my top-geared toons, the ones with enough Heroes to keep the time for the longer, large-reward tasks manageable. With my odd work hours, I've just had to figure out when to run shorter tasks and how to allocate assets so that, the next time I'm at the computer, I'm collecting and restarting tasks. I guess I'll learn to live with the nerf...but I don't have to live with people telling me how to "play the game".
What's not full of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, however, is the suggestion that PWE/Cryptic may have a legitimate interest in changing what the game is, up to and including discouraging leadership (ESPECIALLY on mass character slot accounts). Everyone can do whatever is legal/possible within the system, but that doesn't mean that some aspects of that system may not be problematic for other aspects of the game.
As I've said before, I'd like it if the professions tasks were much more interactive and nuanced.
And if you want to remove any AD and RP from Leadership too, then you might as well remove anything sell-/tradeable from any other profession!
While you're at it, make anything bought from the auction house bound to account.
That should do it...
— (The unwritten rule)
But, uhh, even as a non-paying customer, I'd almost prefer it if the game were more pay-to-winny, compared to the ridiculous grind of leadership.
click - back - click - back - click
three tasks started....
Now takes me way longer and I cannot update them at lunchtime from work.
Glad to see I want the only one doing that
Call me Andy (or Strum, or Spider-Man)!
Follow Neverwinter on Twitter: NeverwinterGame
Like Neverwinter on Facebook: Neverwinter
Follow me on Twitter: StrumSlinger
Step 1.) Buy a buncha zen. Hold onto it.
Step 2.) Invoke. Get coupons. Buy things using coupons.
Step 3.) Sell the zen items you got via coupons on the AH.
For instance, a "15% off any item" lets you buy a Coalescent Ward for 850 zen. Selling that on the AH, at 500 AD per zen, would require a breakeven price of 475,000ish, and Coal Wards typically sell for over 500k, so you can feasibly make over 20000 AD in profit just from a single coupon.
Surprised more people haven't been taking advantage of this system (thus driving down prices to the point where it's no longer profitable). I imagine that's why they reduced the coupon drop rate, but hey, that's why I decided that if I can't easily manage leadership with my two new alts (that I purchased the slots for the day before the gateway change) I can at least use them as invoke dolls.
Waiting for Cryptic to make it so items bought with coupons are BTA or some such nonsense.
As we don't have the gateway yet, our progression is much slower in this game, but the prices are sometimes outrages. After almost 4 months we are already at 1:240 exchange rate and have been at 1:290 a couple weeks ago. We are already at a point in this game, where we have not much left to sell in the AH. T2 and artifact belts are at an all-time low thanks to Tiamat and GMoP and others have a super low drop rate.
At least Dragon Hoard Enchantments still seem to work even though imho the drop rate at least in neverdeath was already lowered compared to stuff I got a couple weeks ago. (but nothing official in any patch notes so far)
So my guild and I will keep playing as long as it is still fun and entertaining, when it should become a chore, I'm sadly not that certain about it.
And even though we never got the ability to try out the cool gateway leadership way, we still have a lot of AD-Sellers and it is annoying. That should be prove enough, that "these measurements are against bots", is a false statement and completely irrelevant in fighting those people, but more against the real players playing legit.
I don't believe that arcgames can't see the range of their actions, but I would like to have more insight in the real reasons, rather than just be thrown into the hole and have to dig my way out of there again.
I don't know why but somehow I have a deeper sinking feeling reading this. I sure hope I am wrong.
I am thinking along the lines that we will get it back, but you will loose a lot of what you might have relied on in the past.
glassdoor.com - Cryptic Studios Review
Me too. Well, it could be anything they are planning but my guess is it'll be a nerf to AD from leadership.
Whether or not they'd go the extra step to ensure players, uhhh, actually have AD to buy AD related items or not is another question entirely~