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Put into perspective the changes to Leadership on Gateway

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    kamikalzekamikalze Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    plasticbat wrote: »
    I don't know why but somehow I have a deeper sinking feeling reading this. I sure hope I am wrong.

    Me too. Well, it could be anything they are planning but my guess is it'll be a nerf to AD from leadership.

    If they nerf the AD income, they would still hit the legit players more, than the botters,
    because botters compensate through 50 accounts with a lot more chars, players have maybe 10 chars and have even less for the effort. There needs to be a different way, than to punish the players over botters
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    regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 3,043 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    plasticbat wrote: »
    We've been analyzing the economy, the AD and all the feedback you guys have given here and have been tweaking our plans based on how everything shifts. We never intended to just turn off Leadership on Gateway and leave it at that. With shifting tides comes shifting maneuvers (is that a saying?). I actually sat down with some devs and went through all 11 pages - when it was just 11 pages. More information to come when the effect of this change has a little more time to settle. Thanks, guys!

    I don't know why but somehow I have a deeper sinking feeling reading this. I sure hope I am wrong.
    +1 on the bad feeling.
    Please, just get some GMs into your game, and start making things right by banning goldsellers and AD buyers, before you do even more damage to the game...

    @strumslinger
    Btw. what about the feedback thread in the feedback forum, anything new about that?
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    GMs cost too much.

    Any game that has the budget problem of GMs costing too much is probably a lost cause financially anyway.

    As I've speculated, it may even be that they want to pull out of Neverwinter entirely, but due to contracts with WotC regarding the Neverwinter licensing, that's impossible. This is 100% pure speculation though, so don't take it too seriously (else mods'll jump into the thread and say "SO MUCH MISINFORMATION, SHUTTING THIS THREAD DOWN!" because, well, there's too much misinformation).
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    ulvielulviel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 741 Arc User
    We've been analyzing the economy, the AD and all the feedback you guys have given here and have been tweaking our plans based on how everything shifts. We never intended to just turn off Leadership on Gateway and leave it at that. With shifting tides comes shifting maneuvers (is that a saying?). I actually sat down with some devs and went through all 11 pages - when it was just 11 pages. More information to come when the effect of this change has a little more time to settle. Thanks, guys!

    Somehow it makes me dread the future of this game even more. Because you guys either have extremly poor reading comprehensions, or you give us exactly opposite of what we are asking for for purpose (like, we say lvling 60-70 is painfully long and boring, you make it even longer and therefore even more boring).

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    plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,288 Arc User
    ulviel wrote: »
    We've been analyzing the economy, the AD and all the feedback you guys have given here and have been tweaking our plans based on how everything shifts. We never intended to just turn off Leadership on Gateway and leave it at that. With shifting tides comes shifting maneuvers (is that a saying?). I actually sat down with some devs and went through all 11 pages - when it was just 11 pages. More information to come when the effect of this change has a little more time to settle. Thanks, guys!

    Somehow it makes me dread the future of this game even more. Because you guys either have extremly poor reading comprehensions, or you give us exactly opposite of what we are asking for for purpose (like, we say lvling 60-70 is painfully long and boring, you make it even longer and therefore even more boring).

    They punished us for complaining and then told us they delivered what we "asked".
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    Here's the funny part:

    Let's say someone makes a straw man argument. "New patch: Leveling up now requires 1% the amount of XP as previously required!"

    That still wouldn't break the game. There's no problem with players being able to level up trivially easy, any moreso than there was in the 1-60 leveling. So I can't imagine why anyone anywhere would think leveling up slower is a good thing.
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    vinceent1vinceent1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,264 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    We've been analyzing the economy, the AD and all the feedback you guys have given here and have been tweaking our plans based on how everything shifts. We never intended to just turn off Leadership on Gateway and leave it at that. With shifting tides comes shifting maneuvers (is that a saying?). I actually sat down with some devs and went through all 11 pages - when it was just 11 pages. More information to come when the effect of this change has a little more time to settle. Thanks, guys!

    i would like to see this try system on other things too. like try only solo que at pvp gauntlgrym, how matchmaking works etc.

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    micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Playing from just after beta, used to have only one char, got nerfed to the ground for PvE, made few alts just to try different classes and to run CN with CW, was doing dungeons, never bothered with leadership.
    Got to 3.5mil RAD just from salvaging t2 runs during DD.

    Tiamat came (and even a bit earlier), running t2 / CN became worthless, so you forced me into leadership-farmvile-neverwinter edition.
    Made crapton of alts to do leadership.

    Don't remember when but at some point a delay in profession collection was introduced into the game too, so you forced me into the the gateway.

    Now with mod6 when there is no benefit at all from running a t2 more than once per day, and even once is questionable (have the whole set), what dungeon i'm supposed to do to get stuff to sell ?
    You get one coffer per day and the key is worth more than whatever in the chest.
    So I used to run just for fun or help friends, but everyone had enough. There is no point, it's became a login and broken invoke and do professions game. Introduce some thing worth while to do in game and a fiesable way to make AD and I wont bother with leadership army, I didn't start to play neverwinter for that, but until then, if there will be no leadership, there will be no reason to login at all.

    So for now I'm playing other things and doing leadership...happy happy joy joy...
    Lets see what the changes bring...
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    temjiutemjiu Member Posts: 92 Arc User
    Good to hear your taking action Strumslinger!

    hope this all turns out positive. Please keep in mind that with all MMO's, there needs to be a healthy balance struck between developer goals (dev wants players to do X in Y way), and player desires. Successful MMO's tend to err on the side of the player, if needed.

    Having said that, I think that ultimately reduction of AD gain via "not playing" the game will need to slow down considerably. But doing JUST that will DEFINITELY kill the player base. people aren't farming Leadership because they like it...they are farming it because the market is so out of whack...critical game progression items are far beyond the standard casual players ability to gain w/o resorting to stuff like leadership. and half of those prices aren't set by the players...they're set by the company. you need to analyze not only how people are getting AD, but what realistically is doable for the average joe who logs in 2-3 hours 3 times a week.

    And you need to kill the farmable loot. Bind on Acquire please!. Bot's will continue to bot no matter how many artificial gates you put in the game...the gates only limit honest players, not Bot's. Bot's will leave when there's no market. you make gear BoA, market dies. they leave. Marvel heroes did it, SWtOR did it, LotRO did it (early on), it works.

    Smooth out the leveling curve in relation to difficulty. you don't need to make players struggle through every aspect of the game just to progress. make 80% of the game casual friendly, and leave the last 20% to the hardcore players (high end raids and such). FFXIV does this...WoW does this....SWtOR does this...It works. On a side note...ESO tried the "make the endgame a nightmare for progression" idea when they released...look how that turned out (one of the biggest MMO flops I've seen in years). it would be depressing to see this game with such great potential go the same route.

    I appreciate the attention you guys are giving this. I hope you realize that its just a symptom of a much deeper cancer...many game mechanics need serious attention, review, and adjusting.

    This actually reminds me of the FFXIV story. Yoshi, after picking up the broken mess that was FFXIV vanilla (1.0), made all his dev's sit down for weeks and play WoW. Not to make a WoW copy...but to force them to see what makes a successful MMO tick. it worked...FFXIV is one of the few games today that can still keep an active sub only model and keep it going. perhaps the dev's here need to spend a bit more time in other games...
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    There's a sense of desperation in the decision making process as of late. I feel like the team is in over their heads.
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    j0shi82j0shi82 Member Posts: 622 Arc User
    There's a sense of desperation in the decision making process as of late. I feel like the team is in over their heads.

    Cryptic being completely undermanned is a well known fact for a long time.​​
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    j0shi82j0shi82 Member Posts: 622 Arc User
    We've been analyzing the economy, the AD and all the feedback you guys have given here and have been tweaking our plans based on how everything shifts. We never intended to just turn off Leadership on Gateway and leave it at that. With shifting tides comes shifting maneuvers (is that a saying?). I actually sat down with some devs and went through all 11 pages - when it was just 11 pages. More information to come when the effect of this change has a little more time to settle. Thanks, guys!

    Thanks for working towards a solution.

    However, I have two issues with your statement. The nerf than adjust approach is one we know around here quite well, but as you might notice it's getting harder to sell those changes, especially such an impactful one like the gateway Leadership nerf. The adjustments that you mentioned will come should have been made alongside the gateway changes. I know it's hard to project everything, but with a bit of a compensation you might not have to deal with such an angry playerbase. Dealing with bots has been a one-way road so far anyway. Bots have recovered from and adjusted to everything and all that's left from a plethora of changes are the nerfs to the legit player.

    Furthermore history has shown that adjustments after nerf in favor of the players are few and far between. In fact, I'd like anybody to name an example where this has happened, because I can't remember one. Stuff has been removed, nerfed, reworked and although the "we will monitor"-card has been dropped frequently, we are still waiting. Players are very cautious unless you deliver some of the promises.​​
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    At bare minimum, we should have another double RP weekend. Maybe a whole month.

    Or, you know, just make a permanent one. I'd be okay with that~
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    cloudius1978cloudius1978 Member Posts: 292 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    I still remember the days of running CN multiple times for BIS weapon/offhand from Dracolich and selling them for decent ADs in AH.

    Those days were fun, encourage playing the game to acquire ADs, bonding between friends/guild mates as we share the tips and strategies of clearing the dungeon. Players actually feel a sense of progression as they do the dungeons and see ADs raking in.

    All these are gone of course and the game is reduced to a grind, a shadow of the glorious yesteryears.

    I've not given up on the game as there're aspects that I still enjoy, so hope is all I can rely on for better times ahead, albeit the recent changes are hacking away the hope I've, bit by bit.
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    i remember BUYING BiS items from the AH, and behind happy to have my High Vizier set.

    Thoooooooooose weeeeeeere theeeeeee daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaays~
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    myles08807myles08807 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 409 Arc User
    Just an update now that I'm more than a week into Gateway-less Leadership:

    You've made me have to think, to more cleverly reallocate my assets instead of simply "collect/restart." My odd work hours often mean I have only seven or so hours between sessions on the computer, so I simply choose shorter time tasks and select my highest time-bonus assets to work on medium-length tasks in order to complete them before I'm off to work again. In a way, I look at Leadership in a new way, and that's been an interesting challenge.

    Thanks to the double AD event, I'll have a RAD backlog until the autumn at least...but I was generating between 100 and 500 RAD in excess of the refining limit daily with my level 25 Leadership alts anyway, and even more if rare tasks popped up at the right times. The only persistent negative I see coming from a permanent ban on starting Leadership tasks via the Gateway is the slowing of the leveling process. It will take me much longer to bring up my non-25 alts to max level, given my inability to stop, collect, and restart short-time tasks. It's a minor inconvenience at worst, though.
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    sm0ld3rsm0ld3r Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    I find this thread quite humorous. Strumslinger comes on here with either an overtly bogus or completely ignorant explanation for what they expect to achieve with the change and despite all the feedback (and new data showing the bots are doing leadership in game), has not bothered to comment again.

    This change was a huge shaft to players with jobs that liked to set things up while at work. Those are the ONLY folks getting hurt by this change. The bots are now lagging up a storm in game continuing to do their leadership. Great job guys. Would be nice if they had an analyst on their team that could anticipate the consequences before introducing these type of changes.
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    quspivquspiv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    They could hire volunteer GM's with limited power that can only suspend the accounts. Bots wont write the tickets to supports, so there wont be much problems, and if those volunteer GM's suspect innocent player they will have to pay them 500k AD.

    This would solve a lot of problems.
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    khimera906khimera906 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    We've been analyzing the economy, the AD and all the feedback you guys have given here and have been tweaking our plans based on how everything shifts. We never intended to just turn off Leadership on Gateway and leave it at that. With shifting tides comes shifting maneuvers (is that a saying?). I actually sat down with some devs and went through all 11 pages - when it was just 11 pages. More information to come when the effect of this change has a little more time to settle. Thanks, guys!

    First off, these 10 days of double AD was a horrible idea. This is gonna inflate the economy like heII.

    Second, the game itself needs to be fun and rewarding so we don't turn to silly mini games. Granted, that's where I make most of my AD, but I would much rather just play the game and get rewarded for that.

    Thirdly, can the developers stop nerfing and removing stuff from the game? WTF kind of updates are these where we just lose content? Even it it's meant to combat bots, at the end of the day that's all there's to it - content that's being removed. That's unattractive to old and new players.
    I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
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    regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 3,043 Arc User
    mattock13 wrote: »
    ihaveahies wrote: »
    mattock13 wrote: »
    This went up in the preview patch
    Gateway now has better messaging for Leadership being disabled.

    Does this mean that Leadership will be disabled for the long haul? I hope we get more info soon. When does Mod 7 come out?

    Not sure why it's up for only preview. Surely it'd be a simple change?

    Watching the live stream, I think they said Mod 7 launches in 2 weeks. I had no idea it was so soon. They are probably all working on finishing Strongholds, so live will only get server restarts until launch.

    So a minimum of 3-4 more weeks without gateway.
    You do know, that they plan on releasing Underdark, the next new module in line, at the end of the year, right?
    Now look back to the start of Elemental Evil and what they actually patched/updated from there until know.
    It is hard to still have some hope left for at least a few bug fixes or even some really needed changes to the game...
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
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