And now we have the big picture:
The VIP program, THAT'S why they pulled leadership from gateway. Note the rewards to VIP table? The program is ACCOUNT wide, those peeps that have alt armies are rewarded. Note the +% discounts from bazaar? GMoPs will be 25% cheaper.
And for those suggesting or asking for it, whats to be the new model for AD?..read closely bonus %AD from invokes and quests and hourly events....so since they don't CURRENTLY give AD for quests other than foundry and hourly, if you read between the lines they must plan to add AD generating quest rewards.
So since they have driven off/pissed off the whale players that used to pay, they are adding a monthly fee based rewards system to try and drum up some business.
So forget the red herring "bot's did it....", <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and realize it's actually just another P2P money grab dressed up as a "premium service".
People who got pissed are mostly f2p scrubs who abused the poor design to get everything for free without even leaving the PE. Leadership should've never been in the gateway nor reward AD.
Legit players who actually play the game wont see any difference in their AD income. If you do daily PvP quests you get 8k AD total, 6k from dungeon (during the event), 6k from skirmishes (during the event), 3k from invoking if you're lvl 70. Rest you can get from leadership or Foundry.
Those who play the game are still getting rewarded and can easily reach the max AD refine cap, at least on their main character.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
edited August 2015
On the one hand, if you don't have time to play the game, don't play the game.
I agree with the anti-leadership army mentality, but I really despise the idea of "OH WELL YOU'RE FINE AS LONG AS YOU KEEP RUNNING DUNGEONS AND DOING PVP (aka all that stuff that you hate about the game because you like being a solo player)"
Legit players who actually play the game wont see any difference in their AD income. If you do daily PvP quests you get 8k AD total, 6k from dungeon (during the event), 6k from skirmishes (during the event), 3k from invoking if you're lvl 70. Rest you can get from leadership or Foundry.
Those who play the game are still getting rewarded and can easily reach the max AD refine cap, at least on their main character.
And many commenters forget, that with a work schedule and a family life, you seldom hit skirmish time, and with a lower gears score / item level, you don't do dungeons, because you get kicked out of most party, and you don't have time to assemble one out of merciful legit community members; additional, you can only do one profitable dungeon a day.
Many don't do PvP at all, and those forced to do so to get some scraps of AD enraged the PvP players, when they mess up the match.
So you're left with those few thousand AD you get from Rhix for doing a foundry, compared to the millions necessary to get a single artifact to mystic...
...NOT motivating!
Not to mention that without leadership by gateway, you need to log into he game to get any AD, which at times is an epic adventure in itself.
And than there are a large number of customers who find restricting themselves to only one character just boring; is NWO really populated enough to alienating those too?
No, it's not the f2p community, it's the working casuals which a hit by this change.
You can do 3man dungeons without getting kicked (kicking is disabled for like 10 or 15min) most dungeons is finished before that time. You can get 3k AD from the chest (during the event) and 3k for the qeust. If you dont do pvp it's your own fault, not like you have to try much to win a GG match, since you can get carried by premade if you end on their side.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
"It's your fault for not doing PvP"
Uhhh okay whatever. I mean, the point is, the game has-previously-been structured such a way that getting AD via doing PvP was just one of many options, and doing all of the options simultaneously gave little in the way of additional returns, because of the RAD refining cap. Saying "Ha ha, well, you can still do PVP" is basically saying "Your old playstyle has been REJECTED!!!! Neener neener."
If you take Leadership proffession in to consideration you can get 24k AD with just it (not even invoking needed) though you will need lvl25 prof + some uncommon assets. Then you can get 24k AD per day with just 5min of playing.
Not sure if the devs are still reading the feedbacks or you simply just gonna let it die down itself?
Like I said in other thread the reason why people are relying on leadership is because its the only means of having a sense of security to gain AD in the current state of the game, since you took away almost every possible farmable content.
I understand any BIS item should be a long term goal, but with the rate of you introducing the new equips and items every module, not to mention the alt-unfriendly and FotM type of gameplay, legit players dont have time or ways to farm enough AD or RP to build up their current gear before you render everything obsolete in the next module, how could one afford to keep up the f2p aspect?
You mentioned about implementing something new in order to reward players sufficiently, as reassuring as it sounds, with the release of mod 7 which is a huge AD sink and mod 7.5 GvG, I dont see any dungeons or BoE or any type of famrable content, for both pvers and pvpers, so what exactly do you have in mind when you say "sufficiently", do you mean double AD weekend every now and then?
With all that being said, please consider restoring leadership on gateway before you release those new ways. Also I dont know how you plan on dealing the real bots, if at all... I would very much like to know just one thing: What is there to farm and play legitimately in the current state of the game to net you 30- 60mil AD every module in order to progress and keep up competitively?
A bunch of people are saying we're punishing players, but let's put things into perspective about the game as a whole instead of what each individual player sees. We have information you guys may not be aware of in that the amount of people botting in Leadership on Gateway is astounding! They're actually ruining the economy by having so much AD that it hikes everything up, but many aren't aware of this. By removing it, the economy will be more balanced as "illegal" currency would take a hit - yes, we know there are other ways, but one step at a time.
Let's not think about this in terms of individual and immediate problems. Just because it doesn't affect you directly, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Manyyyyy people have asked us to take care of all the botters and their monopoly of AD, but when we do something to stop some of it, the same people berate us. I'm not sure about you, but this just doesn't sound right. So I'm asking you guys to look at the bigger picture instead of what's directly in front of you and ask yourself the same questions you're asking us.
I understand your frustrations, but again, look at the bigger picture. I'll be the first to acknowledge when a decision is questionable like the XP changes and whatnot, but this one is not questionable; it's just not obvious at first.
Many people say we never act on anything the community wants. Here we are acting on it - getting rid of a major source for botting, which will result in a more balanced economy.
This is my honest opinion and I am speaking for myself, not anyone else.
Thank you greatly for taking the time to address the problem. I would like to say that your post is full of arrogance and hyperbole.
I have information too. Information that you MUST not be aware of that is ruining the economy. AD sellers use the AH house to transfer huge sums of AD. They do this by taking a common item the buyer does and listing it on the AH for millions of AD. The AD seller will buy the AH item. So you could have left leadership alone and just fixed this by capping the AD on trash and common quality items.
If you fix the problems you do not have to worry about backlash yet you did not fix the problem. You just took a way one way that people who where dumb may have used as leadership does not give much AD as compared to other professions. So no legit AD farmer is going to waste there time botting leadership. Much better ways to do this.
So please go back fix the problem get rid of the damn attitude and put your ego away and give us back our leadership.
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myles08807Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 409Arc User
A modest proposal: If the removal of Leadership from the Gateway is a foregone conclusion and permanent, what would be the harm in returning the times for the upper-level AD-reward tasks (Destroy Enemy Camp etc) to their pre-Mod 6 levels?
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
Not sure if the devs are still reading the feedbacks or you simply just gonna let it die down itself?
With all that being said, please consider restoring leadership on gateway before you release those new ways. Also I dont know how you plan on dealing the real bots, if at all... I would very much like to know just one thing: What is there to farm and play legitimately in the current state of the game to net you 30- 60mil AD every module in order to progress and keep up competitively?
30 to 60 mil every module? Wha-what? You don't need 60 mil per module. 60 mil total maybe, but not per module.
To get four mythic grade artifacts, you need a total of roughly 41.6 million RP from enchants. Current market value of that is probably around 5 million, though I'll certainly agree that's a distortion from bots selling them on the AH. Once you have four mythic grade artifacts, you're basically done with that part, so let's move onwards to Artifact Equipment
We need approximately 19 million RP for equipment. These RPs cost more, so let's just round it up to 38 million AD cost.
By the way, looking at it this way, it's pretty obvious that artifacts are (currently) the best stat/AD ratio, but anyway.
So you've got yourself spending something like 43 million astral diamonds, the lions share of which is in artifact equip. That's less if you wait till double RP weekend, but since prices rise as well, not as much as 1/2 as much, so let's just say it's 40 million. Then we have to concern ourselves with a boatload of GMOPs. Something like 1 mil per artifact and artifact equip, so let's round things up to 50 mil, just to be on the safe side. Boom, 50 mil, you're done.
OH <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>! NEW MODULE! Now you have to replace your mainhand and offhand (although apparently the new reforging system makes you not have to? Whatever, I haven't looked into it). But if you wait for double RP weekend (this time you really really should, so we're going to incorporate it into our calculations), your legendary weapon gives you 3717728 RP into your new legendary weapon. So you still need 927,000 RP or so. Double that, since we have to account for your off-hand as well. Multiply by 2 to get the AD cost, and then add 500k for each main-hand and off-hand. So, we're up to 4.7 million AD per module.
Don't get me wrong, we're talking about a net investment of about 55 million AD in order to get BiS gear for an initial mod, then upgrade for the next mod. But you'll note that the new mod has a marginal cost of way way way under your 30 to 60 mil figure.
Basically, as long as you're savvy and wait for double RP weekend to refine artifact equip (or take advantage of the new artifact salvage system-but, again, I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO BE CAREFUL WITH THAT, because I hear some people have messed up with it), the vast majority of the expense of getting to BiS for the new mod is work that you've already done in the old mod.
That being said, whew, 60 million AD.
BTW: For people who call Neverwinter pay to win, I guess technically. You'd have to spend 1200 dollars to get BIS just by buying zen and converting it to AD, though.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
A bunch of people are saying we're punishing players, but let's put things into perspective about the game as a whole instead of what each individual player sees. We have information you guys may not be aware of in that the amount of people botting in Leadership on Gateway is astounding! They're actually ruining the economy by having so much AD that it hikes everything up, but many aren't aware of this. By removing it, the economy will be more balanced as "illegal" currency would take a hit - yes, we know there are other ways, but one step at a time.
Let's not think about this in terms of individual and immediate problems. Just because it doesn't affect you directly, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Manyyyyy people have asked us to take care of all the botters and their monopoly of AD, but when we do something to stop some of it, the same people berate us. I'm not sure about you, but this just doesn't sound right. So I'm asking you guys to look at the bigger picture instead of what's directly in front of you and ask yourself the same questions you're asking us.
I understand your frustrations, but again, look at the bigger picture. I'll be the first to acknowledge when a decision is questionable like the XP changes and whatnot, but this one is not questionable; it's just not obvious at first.
Many people say we never act on anything the community wants. Here we are acting on it - getting rid of a major source for botting, which will result in a more balanced economy.
This is my honest opinion and I am speaking for myself, not anyone else.
Thank you greatly for taking the time to address the problem. I would like to say that your post is full of arrogance and hyperbole.
If it makes you feel any better, Strum's actually admitted elsewhere that he regrets his initial post here.
BTW: For people who call Neverwinter pay to win, I guess technically. You'd have to spend 1200 dollars to get BIS just by buying zen and converting it to AD, though.
Or spend half that with an Ad seller. This is where the problem is. It cost 1200 dollars equiv in AD. Compared to other games that is utterly insane. So a gold seller comes along and says hey I can give you 1200 usd worth of ad for 600.00 you would have to be silly not to even if you had the 1200 dollars to spend. It is just not a reasonable investment for a game to ask for. While myself I have never purchased ad I can not blame a single person for doing it. This is a problem Cryptic created by setting the pay window way to high. The only way to fix it is by lowering the pay window
to something more reasonable say 300.00 for BIS or a way to earn it in under 2 months that is reasonable.
Fact is I am pretty sure without the Zen sellers people would most likely give up with the cash window so high. So the Zen sellers actually keep Cryptic in business. Until they change there business model Cryptic needs Zen sellers to keep players.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
Well, that, or they can lift the zax AD ceiling, in which case each dollar is worth more AD.
Well, that, or they can lift the zax AD ceiling, in which case each dollar is worth more AD.
I am going to use a WoW example here so please forgive me. In WoW you can go from 1 to level 100 in under a week. You can get BIS for PVP about 1 to 2 month after. Patch comes you can get best gear in a month or two after patch even if you are a fail hard. So we will use the cost here of two months so under 60.00 (roughly cost of sub for two months just a high end estimate) in WoW to get BIS and under two months.
Let us look at Neverwinter. TONS of hard work with overly complex bloaty systems. HUGE cash sink. You will spend well over 60.00 in wards alone to get BIS gear. That is if you work it up without paying anything. Most likely you will need more RP than you can legitly farm yourself. So you have to buy that from the AH. Waiting for drops which can take months and months and sometimes the drop you want may never drop specially if you are some classes that is pretty nerfed. The whole thing is just broken beyond repair and needs to seriously be looked at instead of giving it a damn band aid and claiming it is fixed. When all that band aid did was <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> people off.
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khimera906Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 898Arc User
You could had just simply disabled AD rewarded Leadership tasks if you were tageting bot-scripting. I just do not understand why does it have to be the entire Leadership profession?
It may affect bots in some way, but it's meant to affect the AD income of the whole community. Why? Well, now you get bonus AD from most sources, if you're a VIP player. Isn't that a lucky coincidence? Thy said they were looking for ways to increase our AD income without using the gateway, but what they forgot to mention is that you're gonna pay for it.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
30 to 60 mil every module? Wha-what? You don't need 60 mil per module. 60 mil total maybe, but not per module.
To get four mythic grade artifacts, you need a total of roughly 41.6 million RP from enchants. Current market value of that is probably around 5 million, though I'll certainly agree that's a distortion from bots selling them on the AH. Once you have four mythic grade artifacts, you're basically done with that part, so let's move onwards to Artifact Equipment
We need approximately 19 million RP for equipment. These RPs cost more, so let's just round it up to 38 million AD cost.
By the way, looking at it this way, it's pretty obvious that artifacts are (currently) the best stat/AD ratio, but anyway.
So you've got yourself spending something like 43 million astral diamonds, the lions share of which is in artifact equip. That's less if you wait till double RP weekend, but since prices rise as well, not as much as 1/2 as much, so let's just say it's 40 million. Then we have to concern ourselves with a boatload of GMOPs. Something like 1 mil per artifact and artifact equip, so let's round things up to 50 mil, just to be on the safe side. Boom, 50 mil, you're done.
OH <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>! NEW MODULE! Now you have to replace your mainhand and offhand (although apparently the new reforging system makes you not have to? Whatever, I haven't looked into it). But if you wait for double RP weekend (this time you really really should, so we're going to incorporate it into our calculations), your legendary weapon gives you 3717728 RP into your new legendary weapon. So you still need 927,000 RP or so. Double that, since we have to account for your off-hand as well. Multiply by 2 to get the AD cost, and then add 500k for each main-hand and off-hand. So, we're up to 4.7 million AD per module.
Don't get me wrong, we're talking about a net investment of about 55 million AD in order to get BiS gear for an initial mod, then upgrade for the next mod. But you'll note that the new mod has a marginal cost of way way way under your 30 to 60 mil figure.
Basically, as long as you're savvy and wait for double RP weekend to refine artifact equip (or take advantage of the new artifact salvage system-but, again, I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO BE CAREFUL WITH THAT, because I hear some people have messed up with it), the vast majority of the expense of getting to BiS for the new mod is work that you've already done in the old mod...
Ok, maybe i havent made myself clear though i have stated in my feedback, its not the initial investment one needs to get start with, the real problem is: you are not done, it doesnt stop there. This game doesnt have real "BIS" or "end-game" items, in pve perhaps it does, but thats not the point im trying to cover - i'm talking from an end-game pvp perspective.
With the rate they introducing new items, one cant keep up the progression without any means of gaining the AD/RP needed before next module when they render past "BIS" items useless and create new META and "must-have or go home" items for premades.
I will give you an example: I did countless CN runs to gear up my toon to full rank10 which is not enough anymore and 3 legendary artifacts that are all useless now (Waters, gwf sigil and bloodcrystal). First was BI weps and pvp gear, then the arti wep sets, then its the CON belt, Imperial Dragon clock, p bile, p. sf, then its waters, then its DC sigil and now its the wheel of elements and the lostmauth set, rank 12 savage/dark and transcendent elven/negation and feytouched, etc etc the list goes on... It's this constant chase if you get what i'm refering to. Ofc you can say "you dont have to, its a choice" yea i agree, i might as well just pve cos rank 8s is more than enough, but in endgame premades its either you keep up or step down. Instead of making minor adjustment, they change the class/items/META drastically every module, so the money you invested in the past are all wasted and have to restart AD/RP sinking for the next META items. In the meantime they took away all the farmable content, thats why i would like to know how to net those 30-60mil of AD needed legitimately every module in order to keep up the competition?
Look, i'm not here to argue we are all in the same boat, you see next mod arpen will go through negation, and prob T. barkshield will be buffed (speculation*), or the new AP gain snail mount and new arti weps and artifacts etc are yet to be labelled as BIS and they aint gonna be cheap. So im starting to see the trend here: the only way to fully enjoy whatever changes they bring every module is to own all the enchants and items in the game at max tier so you have it ready when they overbuff/overnerf smth, and you also need extra cash to embrace new items. If that makes sense then how much "initial" investment we are talking about here in a f2p game?
TL:DR
The rate they introducing new BIS/META items doesnt match the AD/RP one needs to farm legitimately in any given time, and over buffing/nerfing creates FotM gameplay, which adds the constant need to rely on leadership to keep up without any farmable content.
... then don't jump on the hamster wheel every single time.
Upgrade your equipment to a reasonable level and then just stop.
Same with PvP, until they come up with a real matchmaking, don't PvP.
Start playing the game for fun again, and not for the grind.
I do believe in killing the messenger...
Want to know why?
Because it sends a message!
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
Power creep is how MMOs work.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
A bunch of people are saying we're punishing players, but let's put things into perspective about the game as a whole instead of what each individual player sees. We have information you guys may not be aware of in that the amount of people botting in Leadership on Gateway is astounding! They're actually ruining the economy by having so much AD that it hikes everything up, but many aren't aware of this. By removing it, the economy will be more balanced as "illegal" currency would take a hit - yes, we know there are other ways, but one step at a time.
Let's not think about this in terms of individual and immediate problems. Just because it doesn't affect you directly, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Manyyyyy people have asked us to take care of all the botters and their monopoly of AD, but when we do something to stop some of it, the same people berate us. I'm not sure about you, but this just doesn't sound right. So I'm asking you guys to look at the bigger picture instead of what's directly in front of you and ask yourself the same questions you're asking us.
I understand your frustrations, but again, look at the bigger picture. I'll be the first to acknowledge when a decision is questionable like the XP changes and whatnot, but this one is not questionable; it's just not obvious at first.
Many people say we never act on anything the community wants. Here we are acting on it - getting rid of a major source for botting, which will result in a more balanced economy.
This is my honest opinion and I am speaking for myself, not anyone else.
Thank you greatly for taking the time to address the problem. I would like to say that your post is full of arrogance and hyperbole.
If it makes you feel any better, Strum's actually admitted elsewhere that he regrets his initial post here.
... then don't jump on the hamster wheel every single time.
Upgrade your equipment to a reasonable level and then just stop.
Same with PvP, until they come up with a real matchmaking, don't PvP.
Start playing the game for fun again, and not for the grind.
You know what, you are right i might just take ur advice here. Thanks! The struggle is getting pointless now
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
For instance: I'm only investing to get my four artifacts to mythic because the cost of RP for artifacts is so low, and even then I'm waiting for a double RP weekend to actually go ahead and use it all.
For artifact cloak/off-hand, well, that's a work in progress really.
... then don't jump on the hamster wheel every single time.
Upgrade your equipment to a reasonable level and then just stop.
Same with PvP, until they come up with a real matchmaking, don't PvP.
Start playing the game for fun again, and not for the grind.
You know what, you are right i might just take ur advice here. Thanks! The struggle is getting pointless now
Well, i'm not running after the next shiny thing either.
At some point it starts feeling more and more like work, and i don't need that in my "free" time...
For me, even getting artifact equipment to rare is more then enough.
From there i just switch between playing different classes through the campaigns, but again, not strictly on a daily basis and with the goal of getting x boons or y equipment in z time set it stone...
Just playing a bit around here, or running through a bit there.
In the end, as mentioned, it's all about having fun while playing a game.
You know what other good effect would be if everyone stopped chasing the BiS hamster wheel? It would make them stop rushing content IMO. MMO's have a bad habit, it's the "new and better shinies!" mentality. You have a group of players that HAVE to have the new shiny and Devs are always worried they are going to lose some subset of players if they don't keep cranking out new flashy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for them.
A lot of the so called, F2P games are actually driven by pocket warriors. They have to have the cutting edge, new shiny <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> being cranked out, and can't wait for it, so they crack open the wallet and buy it. Those that try and "earn" the new <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, are on a never ending treadmill of trying to catch up.
But what if this happened?
The new and flashy crowd kept buying the shiny <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, but the other casual players, who did steadily buy, but could wait to "earn" it and actually use their money to buy quality of play items (bags, bank slots and pots etc.). Those casuals jumped off the treadmill and insisted on quality play instead of the BiS chase. The gap would widen in cutting edge gear. The wallet warrior would have their craptastic stuff, and the casuals would be a mod or 3 behind. What would be the response from the devs?
Would they have to?
A. slow down the pace of new craptastic stuff to let those behind "catch-up"? (past evidence don't support this, they seem to not give a fudge).
B. adjust the entry level to the craptastic stuff to a less aggressively expense height? (I think this would be the result, free market forces would force this result)
C. do nothing, let the gap grow into a chasm. (Even they would most likely not let that happen, other games have been KILLED by entry players perceptions of a never catch up scenerio. even the juggernaut WoW saw that happening and they adjusted and refreshed old unused zones and added a expedited lvling mechanic)
I think, if a large segment of the player base would get off the gear chase/grind, it would make them slow down the always-rush-out-new-stuff-quick-no-time-for-fix-debug track. It might actually make them realize they have a nice and full framework of content already to flesh out. They have never really exploited some of the storyline, people are so busy rushing past, it that they never experience it. The Dev's have never debugged or de-glitched a lot of stuff that people just avoid.
When is the last time you actually chose the 45 min. Skirmish over the 15 min one? Certainly not during the "skirmish hour". People are trying to get as many 15 min ones in as they can to get the AD. If they fleshed the 45s out to have rewards AND the AD and dropped the AD hr. altogether, folks would run them. How many folks have never actually DONE half the skirmishes or dungeons? By the time you get around to a skirmish you have lvled out of it's range, if they fleshed out things and REWARDED folks to run it, they would.
Half the folks that would run a dungeon don't. Why? time/rewards, some are too long for the rewards earned. Bugged, many are so bugged it's not worth the headache. Party mechanics, the que system is so bad that folks get fed up with it and don't bother. The only ones running dungeons are those that have enough fellow dungeon lovers as friends that they do premades, and even they have been bitching about how lame the rewards have gotten with this Mod.
So why do they need to return leadership to gateway? So casuals can keep up with the Dev's ever forward shinygrindfest pace of content introduction. NWO can't stop, and take a breath, and actually flesh out what they already have, with appropriate rewards/AD for players to use that stuff to keep up with the shinygrindfest.
If you take Leadership proffession in to consideration you can get 24k AD with just it (not even invoking needed) though you will need lvl25 prof + some uncommon assets. Then you can get 24k AD per day with just 5min of playing.
Now THAT is interesting.
Please do me the favor, quspiv, and do me the sums, how one can make 24k with only green Men-at-Arms...
BTW, this should better include the often somewhat time-consuming tasks to gather the ressources.
If you take Leadership proffession in to consideration you can get 24k AD with just it (not even invoking needed) though you will need lvl25 prof + some uncommon assets. Then you can get 24k AD per day with just 5min of playing.
Now THAT is interesting.
Please do me the favor, quspiv, and do me the sums, how one can make 24k with only green Men-at-Arms...
BTW, this should better include the often somewhat time-consuming tasks to gather the ressources.
...until then, I call this a bull____.
He didn't say he was doing it with green men at arms.
But @ L25 with just low level assets, and no rare tasks included you can do:
3x tasks 1/d @ 2kAD ea= 6kAD
3x tasks 1/16h @ 500AD ea=1,500AD
3x tasks 1/16h @ 1600AD ea=4,800AD
6k+1.5k+4.8k=12,300AD
However, if you add just 1 purple on the 16hr tasks that goes to 10h40m, meaning you can do those 2x in 24 hr.
So add another 6,300AD to that.
12,300 + 6,300= 18,600
This is ALL REGULAR tasks, some of the rares offer more AD. If you stack 2 purples on the tasks you can do them even faster.
That 1/d with 2 purples goes to 12hr (2x50%=100% i.e. 2x faster 24/2=12)
Those 1/16hr with 2 purples go to 8hr (2x50%=100% 2x faster 16/2=8)
So you COULD do those 16h ones 3x day for a total of 12k+18.9k=30.9k
Of course you would need all purple assets and the 2 base tools (sword and suit) and be L25 to do all that.
If you added a few rare tasks in there it could be more.
But that is all academic, everyone keeps talking about what you get in the AD from leadership. It's whats in the CHESTS/PACKS that can add up. That's were all RP items that's flooding the AH come from, and if you get a rare pull from the chests, just one item can add up to more than the AD you earn straight from leadership. Why do people keep fighting back and forth about the AD/leadership? It's the DROPS the Bots are after.
OKKKK...so get technical then. Go with green.
Just in green you can get 6k+1.5k+4.8k=12.3k with 8hr x6 task slots left over.
There are tasks @ 8h 800AD so 3x800= 2.4k more
And 400AD 3x400=1.2kmore
So all green assets i 24 you can get:
12.3k+2.4k+1.2k=15,900AD
This disallows Rare tasks which if used would in 24hr push it back up to over 24k
(there are some 1.6k/14h ones, some 1.5k/12h ones) and some 1.2k/12h non-rares)
But you have still missed the point. The DROPS are worth much more than the AD earned. Just the base green drops are L4-5 RP items. Get a blue or purple in there and you are sitting sweet.
Before you go buying any leadership assets, be sure to work out the payback period based on your expected daily routine because it often is not worth it.
You pay an extra 40K AD for a green man-at-arms compared with a footman and that will do tasks 10% faster but that is only useful of you are logging on at a suitable time. I found that the normal footmen suited me just as well. The only exception is the task that takes 1 full day. I slip later and later with that one until I end up skipping one. But even then it is hard to justify the expensive assets.
If you take Leadership proffession in to consideration you can get 24k AD with just it (not even invoking needed) though you will need lvl25 prof + some uncommon assets. Then you can get 24k AD per day with just 5min of playing.
Now THAT is interesting.
Please do me the favor, quspiv, and do me the sums, how one can make 24k with only green Men-at-Arms...
BTW, this should better include the often somewhat time-consuming tasks to gather the ressources.
...until then, I call this a bull____.
He didn't say he was doing it with green men at arms.[...]
[...] you will need lvl25 prof + some uncommon assets. Then you can get 24k AD per day with just 5min of playing.
Uncommon = Green Blue = Rare Purple = Epic
...throughout the whole game.
Gee, I'm running that stuff since almost two years, and with 3 purple Heroes and 6 Green Men@Arms per char. Was maybe the one who injected that 16h/1.5 = 10h40 in the Mod 6 preview forums, and without timing my life all around my LShip I tend to come out at ca. 22k/char unless I get lucky with rare tasks. WITH 3k from invokes, all done ingame. Just thought I overlooked something and thought I'd ask so I might learn what.
Guess what I learned...
On an discussion furthering note: When you look at the time invested in gathering the AD to purchase the Heroes (ca. 250k-350k AD on average because I started using them early...), and the actual time needed for setting up and running all that mumbo-jumbo, the daily DD hour ToS-rush comes out almost equal in terms of revenue, and absolutely so in the short term:
ToS run: Necessary investment when your char gets 55: ca. 10-20k for rare Level-appropriate gear. 10-15 minutes of gameplay => 6k. Key for free.
The LShip mint has to be established (Stuff must be earned and then bought, LShip's gotta get leveled, either in 3 months with little income, or in 5-6 months with low-ish income) and worked (10-15 minutes a day for 5 logins and assigning - invocation! - depending on ISP speed and internet weather), the first half year or so you earn back your investment, and only then you start generating profit with administrative work.
It's actually in the game since 1st edn. AD&D at least - my ancient 1983 DM's Guide IIRC has a several pages long section pertaining to that, methinks, under the "Henchmen and Hirelings" Chapter. (Too lazy to filch the attic...)
I honestly cannot understand why this draws so much aggro - when all the while reaping millions off players buy buying all RP when the news of 2x RP breaks, and immediately offering it again on AH for two to three times the paid price is totally OK. IMHO the latter is cheap and cheesy...
On the other hand, using scripts to work that AD mill... ...is another story - and absorutry not very honorabru...
Post edited by suicidalgodot on
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revan06100Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 205Arc User
People who got pissed are mostly f2p scrubs who abused the poor design to get everything for free without even leaving the PE. Leadership should've never been in the gateway nor reward AD.
Legit players who actually play the game wont see any difference in their AD income. If you do daily PvP quests you get 8k AD total, 6k from dungeon (during the event), 6k from skirmishes (during the event), 3k from invoking if you're lvl 70. Rest you can get from leadership or Foundry.
Those who play the game are still getting rewarded and can easily reach the max AD refine cap, at least on their main character.
That is the most stupid thing i've ever heard, if you wanna pay 200 quid a month to get a decent gear, go on, no one is gonna stop you...
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
As a person who "doesn't play the game" I can certainly see why leadership tasks might be problematic in the sense that the dev team wants players to "play the game"
But saying that that's the "legit way" to play is just abject nonsense, and the elitism that comes from that position is sickening.
Comments
The VIP program, THAT'S why they pulled leadership from gateway. Note the rewards to VIP table? The program is ACCOUNT wide, those peeps that have alt armies are rewarded. Note the +% discounts from bazaar? GMoPs will be 25% cheaper.
And for those suggesting or asking for it, whats to be the new model for AD?..read closely bonus %AD from invokes and quests and hourly events....so since they don't CURRENTLY give AD for quests other than foundry and hourly, if you read between the lines they must plan to add AD generating quest rewards.
So since they have driven off/pissed off the whale players that used to pay, they are adding a monthly fee based rewards system to try and drum up some business.
So forget the red herring "bot's did it....", <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and realize it's actually just another P2P money grab dressed up as a "premium service".
Legit players who actually play the game wont see any difference in their AD income. If you do daily PvP quests you get 8k AD total, 6k from dungeon (during the event), 6k from skirmishes (during the event), 3k from invoking if you're lvl 70. Rest you can get from leadership or Foundry.
Those who play the game are still getting rewarded and can easily reach the max AD refine cap, at least on their main character.
On the other hand, man, !@#$ that mentality!
I agree with the anti-leadership army mentality, but I really despise the idea of "OH WELL YOU'RE FINE AS LONG AS YOU KEEP RUNNING DUNGEONS AND DOING PVP (aka all that stuff that you hate about the game because you like being a solo player)"
You can do 3man dungeons without getting kicked (kicking is disabled for like 10 or 15min) most dungeons is finished before that time. You can get 3k AD from the chest (during the event) and 3k for the qeust. If you dont do pvp it's your own fault, not like you have to try much to win a GG match, since you can get carried by premade if you end on their side.
Uhhh okay whatever. I mean, the point is, the game has-previously-been structured such a way that getting AD via doing PvP was just one of many options, and doing all of the options simultaneously gave little in the way of additional returns, because of the RAD refining cap. Saying "Ha ha, well, you can still do PVP" is basically saying "Your old playstyle has been REJECTED!!!! Neener neener."
Not very helpful to the conversation.
Like I said in other thread the reason why people are relying on leadership is because its the only means of having a sense of security to gain AD in the current state of the game, since you took away almost every possible farmable content.
I understand any BIS item should be a long term goal, but with the rate of you introducing the new equips and items every module, not to mention the alt-unfriendly and FotM type of gameplay, legit players dont have time or ways to farm enough AD or RP to build up their current gear before you render everything obsolete in the next module, how could one afford to keep up the f2p aspect?
You mentioned about implementing something new in order to reward players sufficiently, as reassuring as it sounds, with the release of mod 7 which is a huge AD sink and mod 7.5 GvG, I dont see any dungeons or BoE or any type of famrable content, for both pvers and pvpers, so what exactly do you have in mind when you say "sufficiently", do you mean double AD weekend every now and then?
With all that being said, please consider restoring leadership on gateway before you release those new ways. Also I dont know how you plan on dealing the real bots, if at all... I would very much like to know just one thing: What is there to farm and play legitimately in the current state of the game to net you 30- 60mil AD every module in order to progress and keep up competitively?
Thank you greatly for taking the time to address the problem. I would like to say that your post is full of arrogance and hyperbole.
I have information too. Information that you MUST not be aware of that is ruining the economy. AD sellers use the AH house to transfer huge sums of AD. They do this by taking a common item the buyer does and listing it on the AH for millions of AD. The AD seller will buy the AH item. So you could have left leadership alone and just fixed this by capping the AD on trash and common quality items.
If you fix the problems you do not have to worry about backlash yet you did not fix the problem. You just took a way one way that people who where dumb may have used as leadership does not give much AD as compared to other professions. So no legit AD farmer is going to waste there time botting leadership. Much better ways to do this.
So please go back fix the problem get rid of the damn attitude and put your ego away and give us back our leadership.
30 to 60 mil every module? Wha-what? You don't need 60 mil per module. 60 mil total maybe, but not per module.
To get four mythic grade artifacts, you need a total of roughly 41.6 million RP from enchants. Current market value of that is probably around 5 million, though I'll certainly agree that's a distortion from bots selling them on the AH. Once you have four mythic grade artifacts, you're basically done with that part, so let's move onwards to Artifact Equipment
We need approximately 19 million RP for equipment. These RPs cost more, so let's just round it up to 38 million AD cost.
By the way, looking at it this way, it's pretty obvious that artifacts are (currently) the best stat/AD ratio, but anyway.
So you've got yourself spending something like 43 million astral diamonds, the lions share of which is in artifact equip. That's less if you wait till double RP weekend, but since prices rise as well, not as much as 1/2 as much, so let's just say it's 40 million. Then we have to concern ourselves with a boatload of GMOPs. Something like 1 mil per artifact and artifact equip, so let's round things up to 50 mil, just to be on the safe side. Boom, 50 mil, you're done.
OH <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>! NEW MODULE! Now you have to replace your mainhand and offhand (although apparently the new reforging system makes you not have to? Whatever, I haven't looked into it). But if you wait for double RP weekend (this time you really really should, so we're going to incorporate it into our calculations), your legendary weapon gives you 3717728 RP into your new legendary weapon. So you still need 927,000 RP or so. Double that, since we have to account for your off-hand as well. Multiply by 2 to get the AD cost, and then add 500k for each main-hand and off-hand. So, we're up to 4.7 million AD per module.
Don't get me wrong, we're talking about a net investment of about 55 million AD in order to get BiS gear for an initial mod, then upgrade for the next mod. But you'll note that the new mod has a marginal cost of way way way under your 30 to 60 mil figure.
Basically, as long as you're savvy and wait for double RP weekend to refine artifact equip (or take advantage of the new artifact salvage system-but, again, I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO BE CAREFUL WITH THAT, because I hear some people have messed up with it), the vast majority of the expense of getting to BiS for the new mod is work that you've already done in the old mod.
That being said, whew, 60 million AD.
BTW: For people who call Neverwinter pay to win, I guess technically. You'd have to spend 1200 dollars to get BIS just by buying zen and converting it to AD, though.
If it makes you feel any better, Strum's actually admitted elsewhere that he regrets his initial post here.
to something more reasonable say 300.00 for BIS or a way to earn it in under 2 months that is reasonable.
Fact is I am pretty sure without the Zen sellers people would most likely give up with the cash window so high. So the Zen sellers actually keep Cryptic in business. Until they change there business model Cryptic needs Zen sellers to keep players.
I am going to use a WoW example here so please forgive me. In WoW you can go from 1 to level 100 in under a week. You can get BIS for PVP about 1 to 2 month after. Patch comes you can get best gear in a month or two after patch even if you are a fail hard. So we will use the cost here of two months so under 60.00 (roughly cost of sub for two months just a high end estimate) in WoW to get BIS and under two months.
Let us look at Neverwinter. TONS of hard work with overly complex bloaty systems. HUGE cash sink. You will spend well over 60.00 in wards alone to get BIS gear. That is if you work it up without paying anything. Most likely you will need more RP than you can legitly farm yourself. So you have to buy that from the AH. Waiting for drops which can take months and months and sometimes the drop you want may never drop specially if you are some classes that is pretty nerfed. The whole thing is just broken beyond repair and needs to seriously be looked at instead of giving it a damn band aid and claiming it is fixed. When all that band aid did was <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> people off.
It may affect bots in some way, but it's meant to affect the AD income of the whole community. Why? Well, now you get bonus AD from most sources, if you're a VIP player. Isn't that a lucky coincidence? Thy said they were looking for ways to increase our AD income without using the gateway, but what they forgot to mention is that you're gonna pay for it.
Ok, maybe i havent made myself clear though i have stated in my feedback, its not the initial investment one needs to get start with, the real problem is: you are not done, it doesnt stop there. This game doesnt have real "BIS" or "end-game" items, in pve perhaps it does, but thats not the point im trying to cover - i'm talking from an end-game pvp perspective.
With the rate they introducing new items, one cant keep up the progression without any means of gaining the AD/RP needed before next module when they render past "BIS" items useless and create new META and "must-have or go home" items for premades.
I will give you an example: I did countless CN runs to gear up my toon to full rank10 which is not enough anymore and 3 legendary artifacts that are all useless now (Waters, gwf sigil and bloodcrystal). First was BI weps and pvp gear, then the arti wep sets, then its the CON belt, Imperial Dragon clock, p bile, p. sf, then its waters, then its DC sigil and now its the wheel of elements and the lostmauth set, rank 12 savage/dark and transcendent elven/negation and feytouched, etc etc the list goes on... It's this constant chase if you get what i'm refering to. Ofc you can say "you dont have to, its a choice" yea i agree, i might as well just pve cos rank 8s is more than enough, but in endgame premades its either you keep up or step down. Instead of making minor adjustment, they change the class/items/META drastically every module, so the money you invested in the past are all wasted and have to restart AD/RP sinking for the next META items. In the meantime they took away all the farmable content, thats why i would like to know how to net those 30-60mil of AD needed legitimately every module in order to keep up the competition?
Look, i'm not here to argue we are all in the same boat, you see next mod arpen will go through negation, and prob T. barkshield will be buffed (speculation*), or the new AP gain snail mount and new arti weps and artifacts etc are yet to be labelled as BIS and they aint gonna be cheap. So im starting to see the trend here: the only way to fully enjoy whatever changes they bring every module is to own all the enchants and items in the game at max tier so you have it ready when they overbuff/overnerf smth, and you also need extra cash to embrace new items. If that makes sense then how much "initial" investment we are talking about here in a f2p game?
TL:DR
The rate they introducing new BIS/META items doesnt match the AD/RP one needs to farm legitimately in any given time, and over buffing/nerfing creates FotM gameplay, which adds the constant need to rely on leadership to keep up without any farmable content.
Upgrade your equipment to a reasonable level and then just stop.
Same with PvP, until they come up with a real matchmaking, don't PvP.
Start playing the game for fun again, and not for the grind.
Ask and ye shall receive:
http://perfectworld.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/12661612/#Comment_12661612
You know what, you are right i might just take ur advice here. Thanks! The struggle is getting pointless now
For artifact cloak/off-hand, well, that's a work in progress really.
At some point it starts feeling more and more like work, and i don't need that in my "free" time...
For me, even getting artifact equipment to rare is more then enough.
From there i just switch between playing different classes through the campaigns, but again, not strictly on a daily basis and with the goal of getting x boons or y equipment in z time set it stone...
Just playing a bit around here, or running through a bit there.
In the end, as mentioned, it's all about having fun while playing a game.
A lot of the so called, F2P games are actually driven by pocket warriors. They have to have the cutting edge, new shiny <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> being cranked out, and can't wait for it, so they crack open the wallet and buy it. Those that try and "earn" the new <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, are on a never ending treadmill of trying to catch up.
But what if this happened?
The new and flashy crowd kept buying the shiny <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, but the other casual players, who did steadily buy, but could wait to "earn" it and actually use their money to buy quality of play items (bags, bank slots and pots etc.). Those casuals jumped off the treadmill and insisted on quality play instead of the BiS chase. The gap would widen in cutting edge gear. The wallet warrior would have their craptastic stuff, and the casuals would be a mod or 3 behind. What would be the response from the devs?
Would they have to?
A. slow down the pace of new craptastic stuff to let those behind "catch-up"? (past evidence don't support this, they seem to not give a fudge).
B. adjust the entry level to the craptastic stuff to a less aggressively expense height? (I think this would be the result, free market forces would force this result)
C. do nothing, let the gap grow into a chasm. (Even they would most likely not let that happen, other games have been KILLED by entry players perceptions of a never catch up scenerio. even the juggernaut WoW saw that happening and they adjusted and refreshed old unused zones and added a expedited lvling mechanic)
I think, if a large segment of the player base would get off the gear chase/grind, it would make them slow down the always-rush-out-new-stuff-quick-no-time-for-fix-debug track. It might actually make them realize they have a nice and full framework of content already to flesh out. They have never really exploited some of the storyline, people are so busy rushing past, it that they never experience it. The Dev's have never debugged or de-glitched a lot of stuff that people just avoid.
When is the last time you actually chose the 45 min. Skirmish over the 15 min one? Certainly not during the "skirmish hour". People are trying to get as many 15 min ones in as they can to get the AD. If they fleshed the 45s out to have rewards AND the AD and dropped the AD hr. altogether, folks would run them. How many folks have never actually DONE half the skirmishes or dungeons? By the time you get around to a skirmish you have lvled out of it's range, if they fleshed out things and REWARDED folks to run it, they would.
Half the folks that would run a dungeon don't. Why? time/rewards, some are too long for the rewards earned. Bugged, many are so bugged it's not worth the headache. Party mechanics, the que system is so bad that folks get fed up with it and don't bother. The only ones running dungeons are those that have enough fellow dungeon lovers as friends that they do premades, and even they have been bitching about how lame the rewards have gotten with this Mod.
So why do they need to return leadership to gateway? So casuals can keep up with the Dev's ever forward shinygrindfest pace of content introduction. NWO can't stop, and take a breath, and actually flesh out what they already have, with appropriate rewards/AD for players to use that stuff to keep up with the shinygrindfest.
Now THAT is interesting.
Please do me the favor, quspiv, and do me the sums, how one can make 24k with only green Men-at-Arms...
BTW, this should better include the often somewhat time-consuming tasks to gather the ressources.
...until then, I call this a bull____.
He didn't say he was doing it with green men at arms.
But @ L25 with just low level assets, and no rare tasks included you can do:
3x tasks 1/d @ 2kAD ea= 6kAD
3x tasks 1/16h @ 500AD ea=1,500AD
3x tasks 1/16h @ 1600AD ea=4,800AD
6k+1.5k+4.8k=12,300AD
However, if you add just 1 purple on the 16hr tasks that goes to 10h40m, meaning you can do those 2x in 24 hr.
So add another 6,300AD to that.
12,300 + 6,300= 18,600
This is ALL REGULAR tasks, some of the rares offer more AD. If you stack 2 purples on the tasks you can do them even faster.
That 1/d with 2 purples goes to 12hr (2x50%=100% i.e. 2x faster 24/2=12)
Those 1/16hr with 2 purples go to 8hr (2x50%=100% 2x faster 16/2=8)
So you COULD do those 16h ones 3x day for a total of 12k+18.9k=30.9k
Of course you would need all purple assets and the 2 base tools (sword and suit) and be L25 to do all that.
If you added a few rare tasks in there it could be more.
But that is all academic, everyone keeps talking about what you get in the AD from leadership. It's whats in the CHESTS/PACKS that can add up. That's were all RP items that's flooding the AH come from, and if you get a rare pull from the chests, just one item can add up to more than the AD you earn straight from leadership. Why do people keep fighting back and forth about the AD/leadership? It's the DROPS the Bots are after.
Just in green you can get 6k+1.5k+4.8k=12.3k with 8hr x6 task slots left over.
There are tasks @ 8h 800AD so 3x800= 2.4k more
And 400AD 3x400=1.2kmore
So all green assets i 24 you can get:
12.3k+2.4k+1.2k=15,900AD
This disallows Rare tasks which if used would in 24hr push it back up to over 24k
(there are some 1.6k/14h ones, some 1.5k/12h ones) and some 1.2k/12h non-rares)
But you have still missed the point. The DROPS are worth much more than the AD earned. Just the base green drops are L4-5 RP items. Get a blue or purple in there and you are sitting sweet.
You pay an extra 40K AD for a green man-at-arms compared with a footman and that will do tasks 10% faster but that is only useful of you are logging on at a suitable time. I found that the normal footmen suited me just as well. The only exception is the task that takes 1 full day. I slip later and later with that one until I end up skipping one. But even then it is hard to justify the expensive assets.
Oh, but he did!
Uncommon = Green
Blue = Rare
Purple = Epic
...throughout the whole game.
Gee, I'm running that stuff since almost two years, and with 3 purple Heroes and 6 Green Men@Arms per char. Was maybe the one who injected that 16h/1.5 = 10h40 in the Mod 6 preview forums, and without timing my life all around my LShip I tend to come out at ca. 22k/char unless I get lucky with rare tasks. WITH 3k from invokes, all done ingame. Just thought I overlooked something and thought I'd ask so I might learn what.
Guess what I learned...
On an discussion furthering note: When you look at the time invested in gathering the AD to purchase the Heroes (ca. 250k-350k AD on average because I started using them early...), and the actual time needed for setting up and running all that mumbo-jumbo, the daily DD hour ToS-rush comes out almost equal in terms of revenue, and absolutely so in the short term:
ToS run: Necessary investment when your char gets 55: ca. 10-20k for rare Level-appropriate gear. 10-15 minutes of gameplay => 6k. Key for free.
The LShip mint has to be established (Stuff must be earned and then bought, LShip's gotta get leveled, either in 3 months with little income, or in 5-6 months with low-ish income) and worked (10-15 minutes a day for 5 logins and assigning - invocation! - depending on ISP speed and internet weather), the first half year or so you earn back your investment, and only then you start generating profit with administrative work.
It's actually in the game since 1st edn. AD&D at least - my ancient 1983 DM's Guide IIRC has a several pages long section pertaining to that, methinks, under the "Henchmen and Hirelings" Chapter. (Too lazy to filch the attic...)
I honestly cannot understand why this draws so much aggro - when all the while reaping millions off players buy buying all RP when the news of 2x RP breaks, and immediately offering it again on AH for two to three times the paid price is totally OK. IMHO the latter is cheap and cheesy...
On the other hand, using scripts to work that AD mill... ...is another story - and absorutry not very honorabru...
Legit players who actually play the game wont see any difference in their AD income. If you do daily PvP quests you get 8k AD total, 6k from dungeon (during the event), 6k from skirmishes (during the event), 3k from invoking if you're lvl 70. Rest you can get from leadership or Foundry.
Those who play the game are still getting rewarded and can easily reach the max AD refine cap, at least on their main character.
That is the most stupid thing i've ever heard, if you wanna pay 200 quid a month to get a decent gear, go on, no one is gonna stop you...
But saying that that's the "legit way" to play is just abject nonsense, and the elitism that comes from that position is sickening.