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Put into perspective the changes to Leadership on Gateway

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    tcarncetcarnce Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 976 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    wasn't much different before with leveling leadership, so why make a change in opinion now suddenly with calling it new players.
    there's no difference almost between old and new.
    active player takes about 2/3 months or something to get to 20.
    don't know what your idea of an active player is.
    maybe one that plays an hour each day.
    it's simple, don't play much, don't get much.
    people should stop crying about this kind of stuf.
    they want all for free, but when all is for free it's nothing worth anymore.
    then pwe can just as well make all gear and enchants available by 1 mouseclick.
    so weird people can't understand this.
    all to make a new player suddenly equal to someone who played years.

    btw such nice solutions for people who have more then 3 alts and impossible to do leadership then anymore on the chars they played almost endless of hours on. according to your own words years of time wasted.
    just because they have to take your will in regard.

    next please.

    i won't read here anymore ofcourse, such a timewaste.

    ideas as yours make whole communities run away from a game if it's handled like that.
    o yes..ofcourse only the ones who actualy play the game and the ones who play an hour a week are happy.

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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    You know, I think that PWE/Cryptic would get a better response if they didn't keep urinating on our legs and telling us it's raining.

    "Oh, it's to combat bots." No, it's to combat scripts; it's to combat anyone who has lots of alts, not the goldspammers that are universally reviled. And if they just came right out and said all that, we'd be having a vastly different conversation.
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    skitzopyroskitzopyro Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    You will all soon see the affect of losing all this incoming AD when the amount of crafted items starts to dwindle. Without excess AD flowing into the game there will be less Rank 10-12 items on the AH and they won't be replenished.
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    I basically just give up on refining enchants around rank 7 or 8.
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    plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,277 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Will NW go to recession? Less AD production. Fix AD expense from AD store. People talked about farming from dungeon. Dungeon does not produce AD. People talks about making UE. UE is not AD neither. If you put that to AH, it needs people to have AD to buy it. If there is not enough demand or AD rich enough player, you lose the posting fee. So, there will be a deflation. But, how much can you deflate? Lostmauth artifact to 100K from 1 million? Same price as one GMoP?

    We will see what will happen. I think more people will buy from bots now. The bots may even raise the price.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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    plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,277 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    mattock13 wrote: »
    I lost track of the post but someone was saying that there is no reason to have so many character slots. I disagree. There are people who have a ton of characters that they play. At a minimum, we'll have 10 different classes. Each class has 3 trees and 2 paragon paths, making 6 possible combos for each class. That's 60 potential characters right there, and it doesn't even take into account different ability score rolls needed for high crit, damage, recovery builds or unique identities/backstory.

    I only have 9 characters, 7 of which are playable, but if others want 30-50 toons more power to them.

    If you add race to the combination, it will be even more. When I joined the NW 2 years ago, my plan was to try every race and every class. No, I don't mean I want over 60 characters but I want each class to use a distinct race. Hence, ~8 characters. That was my minimum.

    However, this game now evolves to a situation that you can't even easily support one character. It was not the case back then.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    See, in a game where you only get rewarded for time spent playing, allowing players to have 50 characters is fine. It's just that, in NWO, you get benefits that are shareable between characters just for having those fifty characters.

    You can certainly make the case that the problem is shareable benefits to begin with, not allowing lots of characters, and I'd assert you'd probably be right if you were to do so.
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    reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    remove AD earned by leadership and the bot problem would go away =P
    but then they should also make it so 1 character can get enough AD on its own to get to BiS in a fair amount of time.
    2e2qwj6.jpg
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    Agreed. Bots aren't the problem.

    It is <Sunglasses> a problem of leadership.


    YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

    Ahem. I'll see myself out.
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    Well yeah, the fixed prices of the Astral Diamond Merchant are super duper ridiculous to begin with.
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    But that presumes bots are the problem to begin with. The problem is how AD and RP relate to one another.
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    reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    the problem is that the system is made in a way that bots are the most efficient at it. If the system would make it so real players have the advantage there wouldn't be a problem to begin with.
    2e2qwj6.jpg
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    I say they remove all sources of astral diamonds, bind 100% of everything to character on pickup, and give everyone infinity RP and Greater Marks of Potency!!!!!!!!!!

    Then set the whole thing on fire and wait for Mod 8 to be released.
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    gphxgphxgphxgphx Member Posts: 184 Arc User
    Couldn't there simply be two kinds of AD with that earned from Leadership being 'Bound' with any items purchased with it becoming 'Bound' as well? In that way players could still choose to benefit from Leadership on the Gateway but it'd be relatively useless to botters of the gold seller variety. Those who benefit from Leadership could only use the proceeds to enhance their own characters. Unless there's a flaw I haven't noticed - end of problem.
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    Hmm.

    I assume items purchased from the AD vendor would be bound if bought with bound ADs.

    However, there's a catch: what happens when you use bound refining items to make higher tier refining items that aren't bound?

    How far does the rabbit hole go? Though, it's SO inefficient it would be a slight hangup for the bots I suppose.
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    rotatorkufrotatorkuf Member Posts: 537 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    A bunch of people are saying we're punishing players, but let's put things into perspective about the game as a whole instead of what each individual player sees. We have information you guys may not be aware of in that the amount of people botting in Leadership on Gateway is astounding! They're actually ruining the economy by having so much AD that it hikes everything up, but many aren't aware of this. By removing it, the economy will be more balanced as "illegal" currency would take a hit - yes, we know there are other ways, but one step at a time.
    Let's not think about this in terms of individual and immediate problems. Just because it doesn't affect you directly, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Manyyyyy people have asked us to take care of all the botters and their monopoly of AD, but when we do something to stop some of it, the same people berate us. I'm not sure about you, but this just doesn't sound right. So I'm asking you guys to look at the bigger picture instead of what's directly in front of you and ask yourself the same questions you're asking us.
    I understand your frustrations, but again, look at the bigger picture. I'll be the first to acknowledge when a decision is questionable like the XP changes and whatnot, but this one is not questionable; it's just not obvious at first.
    Many people say we never act on anything the community wants. Here we are acting on it - getting rid of a major source for botting, which will result in a more balanced economy.
    This is my honest opinion and I am speaking for myself, not anyone else.

    sigh, sorry man but this is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> excuse and post

    i'm glad a lot of the responses to your post have been on point (keeping you in check)

    it is especially inexcusable after how long the gateway and leadership have been in play, and what's worse is leadership/gateway has really been the only non-insane means of earning AD

    the prices set for zen/ad by cryptic are beyond ridiculous and i can see a lot of players leaving the game because of this

    but the modolus operati for you guys seems to be let's see how we can gut this game from the inside and just shut it down

    it honestly just sounds like you're a bit clueless about the big picture and want to 'defend' the decision for the sake of defending it
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    mattsacremattsacre Member Posts: 330 Arc User
    LOL I love the ones saying get rid of leadership and the "AD problem" and "bots" will go away. NOT.
    Bots don't make their biggest AD through leadership from the AD earned, they make the most from the stacks of RP items.

    If you dropped the AD earned and even the chests the bots would pop up elsewhere. There would be bots running zones for all the profession boxes. There would be bots in a group constantly killing set mobs in a area that dropped RP stuff or other things they could sell for AD.

    I find the leadership for AD/RP rather less annoying than what would happen if they were owning a mob kill spot, or all the profession boxes in a zone etc.

    I used to play LoTRO, in that game there were achievements that would earn you titles or premium F2P currency. Many of those were kill X mobs 100 times or 200 times types. So a player that was well over the lvl for that zone would come "own" all those mobs for the time it took for them to get 100 or 200 -300 whatever kills. But you as a lower lvl player, ea kill was hard for you, you had a quest to kill 20 and couldn't get the quest done because they monopolized the area.

    That's what will happen if they try and stop bots somewhere else, they will pop up elsewhere to wreck havoc.
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    regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 3,043 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    reiwulf wrote: »
    remove AD earned by leadership and the bot problem would go away =P
    but then they should also make it so 1 character can get enough AD on its own to get to BiS in a fair amount of time.
    remove bug/exploit users and AD buyers from the game permanently, and the bot problem will go away.

    getting enough AD with just 1 character? wishfull thinking at best.

    just take a good look at the last changes to the game, then look at the next modules, they are probably filled with even more grind in one way or the other.
    And of course they will also be filled with ZEN shop items to ease that grind for a lot of real money...
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
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    sm0ld3rsm0ld3r Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    reiwulf wrote: »
    the problem is that the system is made in a way that bots are the most efficient at it. If the system would make it so real players have the advantage there wouldn't be a problem to begin with.

    Yes, the problem is they took away all reasonable ways to earn AD in game (Castle never split runs, DK runs).

    The current ways to generate RP and AD is so boring that only a bot would do it.

    So I agree, they need to make the game fun. Sadly there is nothing to do that adds to character progression that is fun. Even getting levels beyond 70 they made 4x more boring than before.

    It is clear, these folks don't have a clue as to how to design a fun to play game. Anything fun, they make it a boring chore.
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    khareqanwikhareqanwi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 17 Arc User
    I have a leadership army. I started playing the game, enjoyed it but only have so much time to play. To make my character better, improve his gear I need AD. I looked at how the game worked, I looked at how I could play and a leadership army made sense. It was something the game allowed and I never ran a bot.

    I have my main character and a few others I dabble with. I need to get at least one of each class built so I can unlock the level 60 artifacts. I play each class a little to understand it but I have one main character. When character slots went on sale I bought as many as I could so that later, my leadership army would be huge. So anyone suggesting a cap on total characters is suggesting the game steals real money from me. I have 50 character slots. I have 30 characters. 29 characters exist as slaves to improve my one character, to make stuff to improve him.

    I can only spend an hour or two a day logged into the game. During the day I have internet access on my phone/tablet but not on a PC where I can log into the game. So lunch hour, I'd go the web interface and check my professions. End of the day, I'd do it again. Maybe I do it also when I get up in the morning. But the web interface lets me keep the professions going to make a decent amount of AD. I don't max it out but its enough that I can buy stuff on the market for my main character and do higher level conflict. You need to pay for GMOP some how. I can causally scroll through professions while I watch TV if its one of those shows the wife likes that I am only mildly interested in. Its enough that all my alts get looked at and assigned tasks a couple of times a day.

    If I am lucky I might get an hour or two during the week to actually log into the game. Doing leadership there takes at least twice as long as using the web page. There is a delay when you log into the game for the first time with a character as it updates things. Now I have to use my game time during the week to log into each character. Now I have to choose between playing the game and generating income for my main character. My main has 300,000 raw AD that the daily limit keeps me from. My alts don't have a backlog since they aren't maxed out per day but the army makes it so my main character has enough stuff to compete. And then I usually have a 4 hour block on saturday and every other sunday to just play the game. Yeah, leadership is a grind but so it so much of the game and using my phone to start tasks during lunch was a way I could help my character and stay competitive because I can't play the game on my phone.

    When I started playing the leadership army tactic made sense. It was legal in the game. I have spent countless hours leveling up professions and playing the alts enough to level them up. All but the 5 newest are at least level 60 with all 9 slots and they have 9 blue leaders each. Do that math. Since I don't have hours a day idle on a PC I spent a lot of time building up in this game a legal way to build up my character, to get him decent gear. I stayed when mod 6 came out and all my friends quit. I figured out that really what mod 6 does is make it so you can't just go the final conflict. You have to do other stuff for a while to build up and then do the next tier of stuff and eventually I will be back where I can do VT again. So I did the grind I could, reinvesting the AD it gave me to build up my leadership army and now, with one cavalier change the game has made all that useless. Occasionally I put real money into the game because it has been something I did daily in the way that I could and it seemed right to give something to PWE. But after a year of following the rules all my effort and time has been made superfluous. I guess I didn't give them enough cash.

    I played legal and now I feel robbed.
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    sm0ld3rsm0ld3r Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    khareqanwi wrote: »
    When I started playing the leadership army tactic made sense. It was legal in the game. I have spent countless hours leveling up professions and playing the alts enough to level them up. All but the 5 newest are at least level 60 with all 9 slots and they have 9 blue leaders each. Do that math. Since I don't have hours a day idle on a PC I spent a lot of time building up in this game a legal way to build up my character, to get him decent gear. I stayed when mod 6 came out and all my friends quit. I figured out that really what mod 6 does is make it so you can't just go the final conflict. You have to do other stuff for a while to build up and then do the next tier of stuff and eventually I will be back where I can do VT again. So I did the grind I could, reinvesting the AD it gave me to build up my leadership army and now, with one cavalier change the game has made all that useless. Occasionally I put real money into the game because it has been something I did daily in the way that I could and it seemed right to give something to PWE. But after a year of following the rules all my effort and time has been made superfluous. I guess I didn't give them enough cash.

    I played legal and now I feel robbed.

    Sadly, YOU are the exact player they targeted with this change. The AD/gold seller bots have the resources and technology to move in game. The casual player who works and played the gateway at lunch or at work is the one that has been surgically cut off by this change.
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    plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,277 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    khareqanwi wrote: »
    When I started playing the leadership army tactic made sense. It was legal in the game. I have spent countless hours leveling up professions and playing the alts enough to level them up. All but the 5 newest are at least level 60 with all 9 slots and they have 9 blue leaders each. Do that math. Since I don't have hours a day idle on a PC I spent a lot of time building up in this game a legal way to build up my character, to get him decent gear. I stayed when mod 6 came out and all my friends quit. I figured out that really what mod 6 does is make it so you can't just go the final conflict. You have to do other stuff for a while to build up and then do the next tier of stuff and eventually I will be back where I can do VT again. So I did the grind I could, reinvesting the AD it gave me to build up my leadership army and now, with one cavalier change the game has made all that useless. Occasionally I put real money into the game because it has been something I did daily in the way that I could and it seemed right to give something to PWE. But after a year of following the rules all my effort and time has been made superfluous. I guess I didn't give them enough cash.

    I played legal and now I feel robbed.

    I have the similar situation. I wanted to play all class. Hence, my plan was to make one character for each class. Yes, they all do leadership. However, the idea was not about multiple characters to support one character. It is about sharing resource among my playable characters such as personnel and potions to level up Alchemy. It was working in mod 5. Now, with the infinite grinding and infinite XP levels, I could barely support 1 character. With the gateway leadership nerf, this game gives even more hardship to do so.

    As I said many times, bot is just a pre-text to put this "patch" in. They do not really go against bots. It is to eliminate old players like me and hope the freshly join new player get used to the "new world order".
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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    ellodrithellodrith Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 97 Arc User
    I guess if switching off the game will stop botting, that will be next. Why not address the issue, and fix it so that it can't be done on the gateway, rather than turning off a portion of the game that makes 4 months leadership leveling worthwhile.

    For me, this affects our guild more than myself personally as I run our guild bank. I use the AD I EARN from leadership to produce shirt/pants combos for our members, buy prizes for guild events, and many other situations. Soon it would have helped with our stronghold. We are a small guild and with this one change, you are impacting ALL of our players.

    Please put it back up and fix the issue.

    cheers
    Ello
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    therealairheadtherealairhead Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 79 Arc User
    khareqanwi wrote: »
    ... I played legal and now I feel robbed.

    +1 to everything you said. You played smart and legal, kudos. I was headed down the same path; you have just been at it longer (I've only played last 6 months).
    Got a max toon of every class, planned on playing them all, then mod-6 repeat-16 for levels 60-70 stuff came out and could only force myself to get my main to 70. I only have 13 toons doing leadership, 4 of them not even to lvl-20 yet. I can generate around 70k a day. At that pace, I was looking at 8 months or so before getting pvp competitive. I can do a few epic dungeons now if the group is really good.
    Before this change, I was contemplating throwing another 40 bucks at them and getting the leadership toon count up to mid 20s. Even that was a stretch, because there just isn't that much to do in this game. Have a great guild, so I log on to chat... but chat room is getting thinner. No way I will give them another dime after this; ( game has good combat animation, interesting diverse classes ... just too long of an endgame grind for gear with not much to do when it's even obtained)
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    tripsofthrymrtripsofthrymr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,624 Community Moderator
    khareqanwi wrote: »
    I played legal and now I feel robbed.

    Perfect summary of this change.

    Caritas Guild Founder (Greycloak Alliance)

    Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
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    lilrastalilrasta Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 17 Arc User
    i hate to break it for you but its not the bots that make em decide to take off the leadership via gateway ...

    its another way they wanna make us spend money ....

    no other way to see it ... bots were from day 1 and leadership is pocket money compare the enchants farming they making and sells.

    all u did was making the legit players (not p2w) to earn AD slower which make em either quit or invest so dont sell us u fighting bots ...

    its all about give and takes and u took way too much ways of making AD which is the main source of the game.
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