Wow that is a bit overboard. You want no perma-stealth, AND no damage. I am thinking this is intentional trolling. Ask for buffs of your own class, not weird nerfs of others
TRs are constantly being targeted for nerfs. It eventually all boils back to the stealth mechanic. I can't see you therefore you are OP. I knew once SO was nerfed it would not be enough. Just give us the damage multipliers that GWFs get.
Ever try to kill a well geared GWF without piercing on a TR? lol have fun with that.
if you think someone if going to use cos anyways you are really wrong, cos doesnt do damages without procs. but really you know what, im tired of this.
nerf trs, who cares
gwf will be buffed to hell thanks to you loud guys and paladins will be there to handle you.
trying to reasoning its really meaningless
Wow that is a bit overboard. You want no perma-stealth, AND no damage. I am thinking this is intentional trolling. Ask for buffs of your own class, not weird nerfs of others
hahah....hidden agenda
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited July 2015
All I ask is THINK before you post....
Steel Defense is only available for Sword Master paragon, not IV paragon which is the only variable Paragon for GWF PvP builds. (ALL top 20 GWFs in NCL Ladder uses IV paragon, this says a lot)
Steel Defense is only activated AFTER using a daily power, you CANNOT use half of the dailies without a target, and for all other daily that can be activated without a target, it generally takes 0.5~1 second to activate, they are NOT instant cast, which means by the time you hear the sound and activate the daily, its TOO LATE.
The reason for this post and the concern is about how unfair SE or Piercing Damage is against specifically GWF/SW as those two classes has no dodge mechanic to avoid this big daily hit. There is no point discussing SE against other classes, how Cressendo hits or anything else, stick to the topic please.
Doesnt Steel Defense give 6s dmg immunity at rank 4? counter daily with your daily or maybe try AoS daily. I dont think you take dmg while flying in the air.
Steel Defense is only available for Sword Master paragon, not IV paragon which is the only variable Paragon for GWF PvP builds. (ALL top 20 GWFs in NCL Ladder uses IV paragon, this says a lot)
Steel Defense is only activated AFTER using a daily power, you CANNOT use half of the dailies without a target, and for all other daily that can be activated without a target, it generally takes 0.5~1 second to activate, they are NOT instant cast, which means by the time you hear the sound and activate the daily, its TOO LATE.
The reason for this post and the concern is about how unfair SE or Piercing Damage is against specifically GWF/SW as those two classes has no dodge mechanic to avoid this big daily hit. There is no point discussing SE against other classes, how Cressendo hits or anything else, stick to the topic please.
Doesnt Steel Defense give 6s dmg immunity at rank 4? counter daily with your daily or maybe try AoS daily. I dont think you take dmg while flying in the air.
Steel Defense is bugged, often not working. I would say its like 50/50. Same for GWF. You can use Savage and die under Ice Knife.
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seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
if you think someone if going to use cos anyways you are really wrong, cos doesnt do damages without procs. but really you know what, im tired of this.
nerf trs, who cares
gwf will be buffed to hell thanks to you loud guys and paladins will be there to handle you.
trying to reasoning its really meaningless
Indeed. I'll just get on my gwf and be pimpin' alot of potatoes. It's pointless arguing as they want it down to the ground or delete the class so all I ask is a class reroll haha. Like someone said, get on a TR with equal gear, go toe to toe with a gwf and do not use SE. I want to see you fare against each other lol. Hell on my GF I can just wait to hear that queu from SE and fast anvil and funnies start to happen haha.
Steel Defense is only available for Sword Master paragon, not IV paragon which is the only variable Paragon for GWF PvP builds. (ALL top 20 GWFs in NCL Ladder uses IV paragon, this says a lot)
Steel Defense is only activated AFTER using a daily power, you CANNOT use half of the dailies without a target, and for all other daily that can be activated without a target, it generally takes 0.5~1 second to activate, they are NOT instant cast, which means by the time you hear the sound and activate the daily, its TOO LATE.
The reason for this post and the concern is about how unfair SE or Piercing Damage is against specifically GWF/SW as those two classes has no dodge mechanic to avoid this big daily hit. There is no point discussing SE against other classes, how Cressendo hits or anything else, stick to the topic please.
Doesnt Steel Defense give 6s dmg immunity at rank 4? counter daily with your daily or maybe try AoS daily. I dont think you take dmg while flying in the air.
SE is not instan either, more like 1-1.5s before it lands.
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seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
It's pointless arguing as they want it down to the ground or delete the class
Nope, that is what YOU and YOUR KIND want, not us. That way, next time the class is ultra buffed again as it was back on mod5, you will have the argument of "we were nerfed to the ground because all your bias. Now, let us enjoy our brokenness" as it happened back on mod 5 too.
Funny, sounds like the card exclusive gwf players use. Back in mod3... blah blah blah. Look if you really think that's what I want, then you must not be reading a thing I say, however, people like romanpotato all keeps saying is no skill for every single thing and every thread he says "bring deep gash back like what you have on your HR". Truly we know what kind of "balance" you are trying to achive there. Let me see the skills when I use my GWF, facetank, facetank, oh GF and guard is up, flank, facetank, use daily, facetank, facetank, dead? Yes ok, no? oh I'm running out of hp, run away sprint. But with all seriousness, have you tried going toe to toe with any class with a TR with same gear level as it is now and NOT use SE. I could careless what build or path you are. The damage is not enough as is. For a damn assassin it's burst damage is low. Take out SE but give me something like anvil type damage on my back pocket and take all the piercing away. However, none of you seem to entertain the idea. You know I think the problem is, your class can facetank any class but because TRs can stealth, it pisses you off that you have to run around finding the rogue as the TR gets tired of running around tossing CoS because we know what will happen if we facetank a gwf. What you guys want is for every TR to just shut up and take the nerfing. And for those saying SO is still strong after nerf, I LOLD hard. Right now the only chance a TR against an equally geared gwf is SE. Don't lie, you know it's true. Keyword here is equally geared at the same level.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
i think u guys just panic too much, taking piercing dmg away is different from taking the skill away. TR probably can still hit 20-40k with that which basically will be more inline with some other classes' daily dmg
seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
1. Do you not understand that regardless of what the TR is capable of, there will always be nerf request to it because of it's stealth mechanic? Mod after mod even though there are still broken classes (OP/DC immortals) the spotlight is still on the TR. So you just want us to accept things as is? You always forget what I always have put in my posts, no problem with it, after you fix that is more broken. If you doubt that, look at my history.
2. Forgive me I don't live on the forums but I already said it before, buff other things, didn't feel like I need to address that again.
3. There are ways to do things, I been patiently being diplomatic but grown tired of the potato attitude as all I keep getting was flak from this guy each time so it was time to dose him with his own medicine.
4. What I was pointing about here is the fact that Mr. Starchy keeps saying that playing TR means you have no skill at all. I was just illustrating the fact that you can just mindlessly facetank everything with a GWF and most hate going against TR not because of anything else but the mechanic of stealth.
5. That is the issue, a lot of users that think they know better do not main TR and their rogues are not geared to where they face classes with the same gear often. I PUG 100% and I face people with the same level gear each time and I tell you the story is so much different than what supposed rogue players.
6. Lashing right now hits ridiculously low and what you guys are asking is to use a daily or class feat to make it viable with is stupid in my opinion. Does a GF have to slot anything else to make this power hit hard? Since we are taking all that damage away from SE, hell, it could be lashing if you want and transfer the damage similar to anvil effect but don't force us to use something else in conjunction. However, if memory serves me right, there was a big thread on lashing back then and some of the same players were part of the conversation to nerf it.
7. What you don't understand is that I continually jump between trees experimenting with my rogue and to tell you right now, when it comes down to it, with the current state of the TR, to be competitive sabo is the best way to go. I invite you to stay EXE on your rogue and see how it goes when you face other TRs. To be all around and be able to face most classes, it is what it is. Problem is most talk about the trees without experience but I have. I don't even bother using the test server, I just buy respec tokens and do it live because there is really no good test but PVP with a build for a few times. In the last month alone I have gone through all trees and back to sabo. I may be sabo at this moment, however, I am more brawler at this moment because of the changes, Path of the Blades against permas, ITC and smoke bomb. Perhaps something you didn't expect from a sabo but again, it is what it is.
8. No one was saying make all trees hit hard. Right now, sabo is the most viable in PVP and SE was helping us take out tank classes. Reason why I say go face a tank and kill him without SE, is because there isn't anything in our arsenal that can do so.
9. Yes, literally no one was saying nerf the class to the ground but TR players is because it was implied by others but don't say. We can read between the lines. It is almost as saying please nerf this, please nerf that and in the end the class is useless. We bring it up so at least when the devs make a decision, they know what's coming from the perspective of the actual class user. Because I know, even though you call for "balance", what you are most interested about is your own class and how it can stay up top.
I really should stop posting on this thread as the care factor has been zero for quite sometime now, it's just the insults kept coming from potato heads and sometimes can't resist. Take it away but until then, I will be using it. As a rogue with only using soulforge, I will gladly land it against any class that slots negation.
TRs just need to slot S.E. + First Strike to deal 100k+ crit and unmitigable damage on ANY TREE... totally logic, right?
Just wanted to chime in on this before posting a reply on everything else. Consider my numbers coming from a rogue 2 tiers below BiS, executioner with P.Vorpal and 15K Power. Yes, given the right opportunity, I could do 100K unmitigatable SE--whether or not I use it actively since I don't support the cheesiness of it all is irrelevant. Just here for the statistics;
Shadowborn (T5 Executioner) x2 power for first attack after entering stealth
(15K Power = roughly 35% damage)
(35% x 2 = 70%)
This feat alone is responsible for 35% of the damage multipliers applied to a First Strike SE.
This feat is exclusive to the executioner tree.
Last Moments (T4 Executioner) also deals 25% damage to targets below the 70% health threshold.
I only mean to argue the statement where "ANY TREE" can replicate this damage. I have yet to see a Scoundrel or Sabo dish out over 100K in SE. I mean that as a technical reply, and in no way did I imply that Sabo does not do a lot of damage already. I just wanted to separate the 70K SE and 100K+ SE between the paths. This single daily does too much damage. However, the latter case is true only for the executioner path.
First let me get my gear-level, build and experience level out of the way. I've played the same class since BETA, so that should say enough. And I'm just two ranks below what you would call BiS, so I don't have that massive gear advantage either. I wasn't around during mod5 when everybody else managed to RP their equipment through "questionable" methods.
I play executioner because that's how I believe an assassin class should be played. High risk high reward, in and out of stealth, melee brawler. I currently have the in-and-out of stealth part figured out and my build works for me, even without relying on broken mechanics like piercing.
TBH I feel a little betrayed that Sabos get to have all their knife-throwing-killer-damage with 0 skill or risk, but I'm comfortable enough in my playstyle that I don't feel underpowered against them.
Secondly, I don't play as much as I used to and I definitely wouldn't put myself up there on the rankings, but I am on the side of the guys here who say that "SE does too much piercing damage." So don't you go stereotype me as just "another TR".
==
Somebody asked what was a good compromise for removing piercing damage, what would possibly balance the class. That's hard to say, but I'll give it a shot.
==
1. TR gets a lot of hate only because it's highly survivable and it does a lot of piercing damage. That's because the paths are so messed up right now. There is no reliable, Scoundrel-only CC that you can't get by being Executioner or Saboteur. All the damage can be found in Saboteur. Sabos get to give up the Executioner feats and still do 50-80K SE. While only Executioners could consistently dish 100K+ SE, the meta dictates that Sabo is still the "easier" way to go.
2. Imagine all piercing removed, as it should be. Shocking execution needs to reverse to its HP scaling mechanic. It should be in the execute-class of powers, along with Killing Flames and Anvil and Gloaming Cut. It should deal larger damage to diminished opponents, not one shot players from full health.
3. SE is the only way to kill tanks. My own Lashing Blade can land anywhere between 10-15K, and with its annoyingly long cooldown, any tank will have self-healed that damage before I can even recharge that power. Furthermore, LB also takes skill to land. Big risks, no reward.
Having said those, I would prefer if the TR's damage are taken from dailies and at wills and put back into encounter powers. 2 reasons. At wills get 100% crit chance from stealth and is easily abused. Dailies can be up in 1 minute and can also be easily abused.
Some TR encounter powers take skill to use, have long cooldowns, and costs us a lot in terms of sustain. ITC, Shadow Strike and BnS and Smoke Bomb are all utility powers. These powers are not "too good". All the alternatives are just "too bad". You won't see a good TR running with offense encounters. If you do, they would be the farthest thing from permastealth.
TL;DR
My proposed solution to the TR class is remove all forms of piercing, and take away the dependence on dailies and at wills for damage. Bring striker-level damage to our offense encounters, so we could be competitive without building towards stealth to an abusive extent.
Sabo IS easy-mode overpowered build.
Saying otherwise meh...you're just fooling yourself.
It just gives low-skill players the illusion that they have some skill cause they are spamming long dodge rolls all over the place, going immune ITC, spamming a ranged at-will with piercing damage, dropping shocking execution usually on GWFs or SWs cause it's an easy kill that way.
Saboteurs being the survivability path, should perform like old module 3 build: high survivability, amazing node holder, but very low damage.
Funny Sabos want to be very survivable but hey, we want also to take down tanks quite fast and have a daily that can compensate the lack of burst so eventually we still have the damage output of a DPS path, and the survivability of the Saboteur build.
SE should hit hard only at low HP. You either go executioner and burst fast to get at the 30% HP threesold for SE, or you go Saboteur and SLOWLY try to eat through the enemy HPs till you get to the 30% HP threesold. You have the survivability to do so.
that's how it should work.
BTW, i don't call dodge roll spam, at will spam, ITC and piercing damage+piercing daily, "skillful gameplay". It's a VERY passive build that requires pretty much the same skill that old module 3 roar-spamming Destroyer, required. Which is low. Very low. Very very low level of skill.
And no, GWFs cannot "facetank everything". Unless the enemy is less geared than them. You may get the illusion on Tnegation/Tfey/20% LS whales. But it's the enchants.
GWF base survivability is much, much lower and requires right build and good footwork/ use of sprint.
But players that do not know the class, i do understand how they see the whales using TNeg/TFey and jumping at the wrong conclusion.
I'm disgusted at the amount of oversight that went on when they created the Saboteur tree. The path contains too many feats that do not belong in a stealth-focused build. SO was simply the most popular, but there are others. I wanted to add on the logistics I provided earlier;
Ambusher's Haste (T5 Saboteur) deal up to 25% more damage as stealth meter diminishes.
This feat ought to make up for a lot of inconsistencies where Sabos manage to land SEs in the 80-100K scale. How strong is this feat, you ask? Example TRs sporting at least a P.Vorpal (which is everybody), and Arterial Cut (see below) will have 140% Critical Severity.
A base damage increase of 25% is easily as strong as the P.Vorpal itself which just adds +50% severity.
30,000 x ( 1 + .9 ) = 57,000 * No Vorpal
30,000 x ( 1 + 1.4 ) = 72,000 * Vorpal
30,000 x ( 1 + 0.25) x ( 1 + .9 ) = 71,250 * Ambusher's Haste, No Vorpal
30,000 x ( 1 + 0.25) x ( 1 + 1.4) = 90,000 * Ambusher's Haste, Vorpal
Notice what the Executioner tree has to compete with this (considering how Exe was the supposed burst path);
Shadowborn (T5 Executioner) x2 power for first attack after entering stealth
(15K Power = roughly 35% damage)
Whereas the Sab feat diminishes with stealth, the Shadowborn is only applied to the first attack. Therefore if we calculate the ceiling, a high-risk Executioner only has the potential to deal 10% more damage than a low-risk Saboteur.
To sum that up, the Sab tree has many feats that do not belong in an attrition-based survivable path.
Notice what the Executioner tree has to compete with this (considering how Exe was the supposed burst path)...
;
...and then look at what WK Scoundrels have to compete with, and you have a glimpse into my daily life
I'm not sure what the Scoundrel is supposed to be any more, or Execs for that matter. I mean, nowadays, Scoundrel's don't have any significant more CC than Exec or Sabos, and Execs don't have any significantly better DPS than Sabos or Scoundrels (except for premeditated one-shot hits with dailies).
Basically the Sabo the CCs as well as other two paths, no-contest level of superior stealth than the other two paths, hits harder than the other two paths, hits easier than the other two paths, and lands mega-damage dailies as the other two paths.
You know what the irony is?
The irony is that the "falsified image of the super-TR" that people used as a scarecrow to bash all TRs during mod5 days, the TR that supposedly lands one-shot hits, permastealths, and CCs well all at the same time... its actually been realized -- mod6 Sabos.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Three years worth of nerf-calling circled around the impossibly exaggerated (saught-after, idolized and hated) have-it-all TR, which never really existed back then, was no less fictional than the Loch Ness monster, and you finally get to lay eyes on the beast!
Ironically, actually, you can't see it because it never leaves stealth.
Iterated a million times, Piercing could respect Tenacity, DR and deflect... agreed.
But then it won't be piercing, would it?
How about we address this matter in relation to another problem: tanks. One core aspect of being a tank in module 6 is the damage absorb mechanic. Astral Shield, Absolution, Warding Flare and CW Shield, to name a few. Whereas piercing damage should fully respect DR and deflect, it could instead bypass all kinds of damage absorption.
In that way piercing will be a more designated tool for taking down certain support classes like DC and OPal -- This gives TRs another sense of purpose (to assassinate tanks and healers) while decreasing its advantage over all the others.
But some mechanics, like Astral Shield or CW shield, ALREADY have a counter.
Astral Shield: lasts 10 seconds. CC and burst the DC out of EAS. Or push the DC out of EAS.
CW shield: at-will to deplete, then rotate.
Those are clear counters that decrease the efficiency or even nullify the bonus given by those absorption tools. And force players to use some brain when facing these classes.
Piercing damage has no counter. Not in its current form. It's 100% active, all the time, spammed through at wills, hitting with SE.
It's not like "you pierce all enemies defenses for 10 seconds". Or "you pierce all the enemy defenses for 10 hits, then you pierce only 25% of them".
Indeed, like for all the things, if you want piercing to stay, the above would be more in line. Like, for example, the TR first hit ignores 100% of enemy defenses. Second hit, 90%. Third 80. And so on. Or reversed, first hit ignores 10%, then up to 100% with each hit, the 10s cooldown.
Would at least force some resemblance of tactic, timing and knowledge to deal serious damage.
What should be UNMITIGABLE and absolute is the defense coming from dodge, for ALL classes. Like normal dodge immunity, GWF and SW 30% DR from shift should be absolute. Meaning if you hit them during their shift, your damage gets cut by 30%, period. It's not immunity like for other classes, just mitigation, and in exchange GWFs and SWs have the longer frames that their shift grants.
Since warlocks have more sprint time, it would also work as a sort of buff for the class in PvP.
Shocking Execution should pierce through all enemies defenses ONLY when the enemy is under 30% HP. Else, it gets fully mitigated.
Also, i would move piercing damage to Executioner, Sabo builds are not meant to deal damage. You can buff other encounters, let them keep ITC but dealing less damage than they do now. It's a survivability path NOT a damage path. Should SLOWLY take away the enemy HPs.
"but how do we kill tanks then!!!".
Go executioner. Is a sentinel or a tank build GF able to kill a Sabo TR? I don't think. So why should the Sabo survivability/ "tank" TR path, also work as a "tank killer"?
Scoundrel should work like HR trapper. Giving considerably more CC capability, with medium damage, to specifically deal with OPally, Tank DC exc...
So it's not nerfs that people ask, like the crying TRs say. What players ask is to give each path a proper role and avoid putting everything in one path, Saboteur, that gets to have the best survivability, the best damage which is also the easiest to land with little effort.
And avoid nonsense 100% piercing nuke hits that cannot be dodged by 2 classes. Which is a dumb mechanic, no matter how you look at it.
"But we need SE to kill a GWF"
Want to kill a tank? Stack ArP and power.
Want to crit a lot? Stack crit.
Want to be very survivable, dodge roll all over the place, go ITC immune, stay in stealth the rest of the time?
then sorry, forget about being a killing machine and prepare to take a LONG time to SLOWLY take down a tank. Your survivability gives you that much time. No hurry.
Stacking piercing damage like you say can be quite tricky, and honestly, building those stacks up or down from 10 or 100% just tells me whether to hit SE right now or later. There is nothing preventing a TR from timing the hardest hitting power when piercing is at 100%. And there will still be 100K SEs, and there will still be crying.
What I propose is to make piercing physical damage with a twist. As physical damage, it will be affected by tenacity DR, base DR, buff DR and enchantments. Around 50-80% nerf. Isn't that what everybody was asking in the first place? We can say we want it gone all we want, but if the devs disagree, it is there to stay.
But to render piercing that way is to defy the meaning and logic of "piercing" for all intents and purposes. If it's piercing, then it's supposed to pierce something.
Take, EAS, it makes a perfect example;
3 stacks Empowered AS absorbs 9% of max HP per hit. It grants 40% damage resistance.
SO Piercing damage (1500 damage) x (ignores DR) - Damage absorbed = 0 damage
SO Piercing damage (1500 damage) x ( 1 - 0.4 Tenacity DR) x ( 1 - 0.1 base DR ) x ( 1 - 0.4 AS DR) - (ignore damage absorb) = 486 damage
100K SE ( ignores DR ) - Damage absorbed = 90K
100K SE x ( 1 - 0.4 Tenacity DR) x ( 1 - 0.1 base DR ) x ( 1 - 0.4 AS DR) - (ignore damage absorb) = 32,400
I've always supported my statements with careful study, and when I say it feels better, it often does. It's not an argument whether some shields or absorbs already have a counter or not. It's about getting something useful out of a "piercing nerf" in the name of balance.
If all you want is to take something away and leave all of my problems intact, then you are not after balance, you just want open-hunting season on all TRs. You certainly have some pent-up revenge issues going on.
I also gave 0 fks and moved on to another game. If they don't respect their players and won't fix things like piercing damage that the whole playerbase has been against since mod 4, then there's no point in wasting my time and money here.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
Would be a nice buff if Sprint can has the Dodge effect :>
New boons are huge indirect nerf to TR. 16% crit dmg reduction (TR have 100% crit chance in stealth0, 32k? HP boost and Stamina drains so TR cant dodge anymore.
There's no way you can get 1 shoted by SE once you get these, because EHP bonus is a lot higher than dmg bonus.
Actually, there is only 2 classes who are directly in danger against SE
Sw and gwf ( the other class can dodge it or mitigate damage, it's not that hard unless for deaf...)
Gwf could but only with some luck and unstoppable, which will happen 1/100(0)
Sw got poor basic defense, so even if there was not piercing damage, they would take almost same amount of damage
Gwf are indeed directly impacted against that skill ( but, correct me if i'm wrong, there is not much skill from any class that can easy kill a gwf without allowing them to escape)
So, i think that instead of remove piercing damage they should reduce some things :
- direct damage ( like they did for DJ's paladin )
- remove the additional bonus that allow a tr to use a second Se if they hited a target with low hp
And in front of that, dc's sigil is a real problem for it ( like for paladin, and anyway, this artifact is a real problem for many reason.) ), it just allows tr to spam daily
Actually, there is only 2 classes who are directly in danger against SE
Sw and gwf ( the other class can dodge it or mitigate damage, it's not that hard unless for deaf...)
Gwf could but only with some luck and unstoppable, which will happen 1/100(0)
Sw got poor basic defense, so even if there was not piercing damage, they would take almost same amount of damage
Gwf are indeed directly impacted against that skill ( but, correct me if i'm wrong, there is not much skill from any class that can easy kill a gwf without allowing them to escape)
So, i think that instead of remove piercing damage they should reduce some things :
- direct damage ( like they did for DJ's paladin )
- remove the additional bonus that allow a tr to use a second Se if they hited a target with low hp
And in front of that, dc's sigil is a real problem for it ( like for paladin, and anyway, this artifact is a real problem for many reason.) ), it just allows tr to spam daily
This is entirely untrue, it is a danger to everyone minus perhaps unkillable DCs and OPs.
The classes that can dodge it is certainly easier on, but any TR that can count can simply time his SE for when dodging is not an option.
GF and OP also have no dodge, they both have block but block is runs out and while it is active they can do literally nothing they are not a threat. The OP are unkillable but soon as they nerf their godhood if would be a massive problem for them as well. The real problem is in team matches when suddenly CC is everywhere and its easy for a TR to get behind you in the case of a GF so guard is worthless at that point. Or with a TR that is suing bilethorn and which slows your movement to basically nothing so again your guard is worthless.
The fact is massive attacks which ignore DR and long duration CC like extended daze needs to be removed from PVP.
And I'm posting on here again. I hate myself. Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag is partly to blame because I can't even do a single quest without rubberbanding, so I'm stuck here reading the bickering on the forums. So yeah, let me join the bickering.
The most pressing imbalance with Shocking Execution (coming from an experienced TR who played all possible TR builds out there since BETA, sabo, SE, WK builds no exception) is that...
It's too easy. I'm going to cover two points to describe that.
Point 1;
There are currently only three powers (or combo if you will) that rivals the damage we can do; the IBS, the GF combo, Ice Knife. Damage-wise if we compare it post-mitigation, factoring buffs and debuffs, those are the only skills that's possible to set up to hit as hard as a "normal" Shocking Execution. I say normal, not the First Strike 130K SE one.
However, IBS, for example, takes 4635713464513245 stacks of various buffs to set up. Bull Charge/Anvil of Doom takes a bit of min-maxing and good timing. Ice Knife, well, you won't have trouble finding a CW who would tell you that landing a good Ice Knife isn't easy.
Shocking Execution does 50K on average, with just a press of a button, top it off with the DC artifact and you have another shot. Soulforged? Doesn't matter, daily again.
Point 2; Factoring skill
We can all agree that pressing one button takes no skill. It doesn't mean you're dumb. You could be smart. You could be the best TR player on the server. Introduce a simple math;
Every troll-brained idiot says (by default) that you can't be a skilled player if you are MI/TR using SE. Prove you wrong. You're welcome.
[*] Animation cancel SE by dodging. Built properly, your TR can outdodge any other class and time the hit just as they are out of stamina. It doesn't matter if you are a SW without a real dodge or an HR.
[*] "Exploit" the first strike bug, where if you swap First Strike in and out before entering combat, you still have its bonus active.
[*] Or do it the non exploitative way: Reset First Strike. Daily up > Stealth > disengage combat briefly to re-contest the node as soon as HD debuff drops > Shocking Execution ... SigDiv > repeat.
Not every TR can do all of the above, but if you're faced with one that can, it becomes an entirely different playing field where TR=God, You=Worm.
On a final note, one of the best counters to SE is a permadodge Elven build of any class (besides SW and GWF).
Comments
TRs are constantly being targeted for nerfs. It eventually all boils back to the stealth mechanic. I can't see you therefore you are OP. I knew once SO was nerfed it would not be enough. Just give us the damage multipliers that GWFs get.
Ever try to kill a well geared GWF without piercing on a TR? lol have fun with that.
nerf trs, who cares
gwf will be buffed to hell thanks to you loud guys and paladins will be there to handle you.
trying to reasoning its really meaningless
hahah....hidden agenda
Steel Defense is only available for Sword Master paragon, not IV paragon which is the only variable Paragon for GWF PvP builds. (ALL top 20 GWFs in NCL Ladder uses IV paragon, this says a lot)
Steel Defense is only activated AFTER using a daily power, you CANNOT use half of the dailies without a target, and for all other daily that can be activated without a target, it generally takes 0.5~1 second to activate, they are NOT instant cast, which means by the time you hear the sound and activate the daily, its TOO LATE.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Steel Defense is bugged, often not working. I would say its like 50/50. Same for GWF. You can use Savage and die under Ice Knife.
Indeed. I'll just get on my gwf and be pimpin' alot of potatoes. It's pointless arguing as they want it down to the ground or delete the class so all I ask is a class reroll haha. Like someone said, get on a TR with equal gear, go toe to toe with a gwf and do not use SE. I want to see you fare against each other lol. Hell on my GF I can just wait to hear that queu from SE and fast anvil and funnies start to happen haha.
SE is not instan either, more like 1-1.5s before it lands.
Funny, sounds like the card exclusive gwf players use. Back in mod3... blah blah blah. Look if you really think that's what I want, then you must not be reading a thing I say, however, people like romanpotato all keeps saying is no skill for every single thing and every thread he says "bring deep gash back like what you have on your HR". Truly we know what kind of "balance" you are trying to achive there. Let me see the skills when I use my GWF, facetank, facetank, oh GF and guard is up, flank, facetank, use daily, facetank, facetank, dead? Yes ok, no? oh I'm running out of hp, run away sprint. But with all seriousness, have you tried going toe to toe with any class with a TR with same gear level as it is now and NOT use SE. I could careless what build or path you are. The damage is not enough as is. For a damn assassin it's burst damage is low. Take out SE but give me something like anvil type damage on my back pocket and take all the piercing away. However, none of you seem to entertain the idea. You know I think the problem is, your class can facetank any class but because TRs can stealth, it pisses you off that you have to run around finding the rogue as the TR gets tired of running around tossing CoS because we know what will happen if we facetank a gwf. What you guys want is for every TR to just shut up and take the nerfing. And for those saying SO is still strong after nerf, I LOLD hard. Right now the only chance a TR against an equally geared gwf is SE. Don't lie, you know it's true. Keyword here is equally geared at the same level.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
2. Forgive me I don't live on the forums but I already said it before, buff other things, didn't feel like I need to address that again.
3. There are ways to do things, I been patiently being diplomatic but grown tired of the potato attitude as all I keep getting was flak from this guy each time so it was time to dose him with his own medicine.
4. What I was pointing about here is the fact that Mr. Starchy keeps saying that playing TR means you have no skill at all. I was just illustrating the fact that you can just mindlessly facetank everything with a GWF and most hate going against TR not because of anything else but the mechanic of stealth.
5. That is the issue, a lot of users that think they know better do not main TR and their rogues are not geared to where they face classes with the same gear often. I PUG 100% and I face people with the same level gear each time and I tell you the story is so much different than what supposed rogue players.
6. Lashing right now hits ridiculously low and what you guys are asking is to use a daily or class feat to make it viable with is stupid in my opinion. Does a GF have to slot anything else to make this power hit hard? Since we are taking all that damage away from SE, hell, it could be lashing if you want and transfer the damage similar to anvil effect but don't force us to use something else in conjunction. However, if memory serves me right, there was a big thread on lashing back then and some of the same players were part of the conversation to nerf it.
7. What you don't understand is that I continually jump between trees experimenting with my rogue and to tell you right now, when it comes down to it, with the current state of the TR, to be competitive sabo is the best way to go. I invite you to stay EXE on your rogue and see how it goes when you face other TRs. To be all around and be able to face most classes, it is what it is. Problem is most talk about the trees without experience but I have. I don't even bother using the test server, I just buy respec tokens and do it live because there is really no good test but PVP with a build for a few times. In the last month alone I have gone through all trees and back to sabo. I may be sabo at this moment, however, I am more brawler at this moment because of the changes, Path of the Blades against permas, ITC and smoke bomb. Perhaps something you didn't expect from a sabo but again, it is what it is.
8. No one was saying make all trees hit hard. Right now, sabo is the most viable in PVP and SE was helping us take out tank classes. Reason why I say go face a tank and kill him without SE, is because there isn't anything in our arsenal that can do so.
9. Yes, literally no one was saying nerf the class to the ground but TR players is because it was implied by others but don't say. We can read between the lines. It is almost as saying please nerf this, please nerf that and in the end the class is useless. We bring it up so at least when the devs make a decision, they know what's coming from the perspective of the actual class user. Because I know, even though you call for "balance", what you are most interested about is your own class and how it can stay up top.
I really should stop posting on this thread as the care factor has been zero for quite sometime now, it's just the insults kept coming from potato heads and sometimes can't resist. Take it away but until then, I will be using it. As a rogue with only using soulforge, I will gladly land it against any class that slots negation.
Just wanted to chime in on this before posting a reply on everything else. Consider my numbers coming from a rogue 2 tiers below BiS, executioner with P.Vorpal and 15K Power. Yes, given the right opportunity, I could do 100K unmitigatable SE--whether or not I use it actively since I don't support the cheesiness of it all is irrelevant. Just here for the statistics;
Shadowborn (T5 Executioner) x2 power for first attack after entering stealth
(15K Power = roughly 35% damage)
(35% x 2 = 70%)
This feat alone is responsible for 35% of the damage multipliers applied to a First Strike SE.
This feat is exclusive to the executioner tree.
Last Moments (T4 Executioner) also deals 25% damage to targets below the 70% health threshold.
I only mean to argue the statement where "ANY TREE" can replicate this damage. I have yet to see a Scoundrel or Sabo dish out over 100K in SE. I mean that as a technical reply, and in no way did I imply that Sabo does not do a lot of damage already. I just wanted to separate the 70K SE and 100K+ SE between the paths. This single daily does too much damage. However, the latter case is true only for the executioner path.
First let me get my gear-level, build and experience level out of the way. I've played the same class since BETA, so that should say enough. And I'm just two ranks below what you would call BiS, so I don't have that massive gear advantage either. I wasn't around during mod5 when everybody else managed to RP their equipment through "questionable" methods.
I play executioner because that's how I believe an assassin class should be played. High risk high reward, in and out of stealth, melee brawler. I currently have the in-and-out of stealth part figured out and my build works for me, even without relying on broken mechanics like piercing.
TBH I feel a little betrayed that Sabos get to have all their knife-throwing-killer-damage with 0 skill or risk, but I'm comfortable enough in my playstyle that I don't feel underpowered against them.
Secondly, I don't play as much as I used to and I definitely wouldn't put myself up there on the rankings, but I am on the side of the guys here who say that "SE does too much piercing damage." So don't you go stereotype me as just "another TR".
==
Somebody asked what was a good compromise for removing piercing damage, what would possibly balance the class. That's hard to say, but I'll give it a shot.
==
1. TR gets a lot of hate only because it's highly survivable and it does a lot of piercing damage. That's because the paths are so messed up right now. There is no reliable, Scoundrel-only CC that you can't get by being Executioner or Saboteur. All the damage can be found in Saboteur. Sabos get to give up the Executioner feats and still do 50-80K SE. While only Executioners could consistently dish 100K+ SE, the meta dictates that Sabo is still the "easier" way to go.
2. Imagine all piercing removed, as it should be. Shocking execution needs to reverse to its HP scaling mechanic. It should be in the execute-class of powers, along with Killing Flames and Anvil and Gloaming Cut. It should deal larger damage to diminished opponents, not one shot players from full health.
3. SE is the only way to kill tanks. My own Lashing Blade can land anywhere between 10-15K, and with its annoyingly long cooldown, any tank will have self-healed that damage before I can even recharge that power. Furthermore, LB also takes skill to land. Big risks, no reward.
Having said those, I would prefer if the TR's damage are taken from dailies and at wills and put back into encounter powers. 2 reasons. At wills get 100% crit chance from stealth and is easily abused. Dailies can be up in 1 minute and can also be easily abused.
Some TR encounter powers take skill to use, have long cooldowns, and costs us a lot in terms of sustain. ITC, Shadow Strike and BnS and Smoke Bomb are all utility powers. These powers are not "too good". All the alternatives are just "too bad". You won't see a good TR running with offense encounters. If you do, they would be the farthest thing from permastealth.
TL;DR
My proposed solution to the TR class is remove all forms of piercing, and take away the dependence on dailies and at wills for damage. Bring striker-level damage to our offense encounters, so we could be competitive without building towards stealth to an abusive extent.
Saying otherwise meh...you're just fooling yourself.
It just gives low-skill players the illusion that they have some skill cause they are spamming long dodge rolls all over the place, going immune ITC, spamming a ranged at-will with piercing damage, dropping shocking execution usually on GWFs or SWs cause it's an easy kill that way.
Saboteurs being the survivability path, should perform like old module 3 build: high survivability, amazing node holder, but very low damage.
Funny Sabos want to be very survivable but hey, we want also to take down tanks quite fast and have a daily that can compensate the lack of burst so eventually we still have the damage output of a DPS path, and the survivability of the Saboteur build.
SE should hit hard only at low HP. You either go executioner and burst fast to get at the 30% HP threesold for SE, or you go Saboteur and SLOWLY try to eat through the enemy HPs till you get to the 30% HP threesold. You have the survivability to do so.
that's how it should work.
BTW, i don't call dodge roll spam, at will spam, ITC and piercing damage+piercing daily, "skillful gameplay". It's a VERY passive build that requires pretty much the same skill that old module 3 roar-spamming Destroyer, required. Which is low. Very low. Very very low level of skill.
And no, GWFs cannot "facetank everything". Unless the enemy is less geared than them. You may get the illusion on Tnegation/Tfey/20% LS whales. But it's the enchants.
GWF base survivability is much, much lower and requires right build and good footwork/ use of sprint.
But players that do not know the class, i do understand how they see the whales using TNeg/TFey and jumping at the wrong conclusion.
I'm disgusted at the amount of oversight that went on when they created the Saboteur tree. The path contains too many feats that do not belong in a stealth-focused build. SO was simply the most popular, but there are others. I wanted to add on the logistics I provided earlier;
Ambusher's Haste (T5 Saboteur) deal up to 25% more damage as stealth meter diminishes.
This feat ought to make up for a lot of inconsistencies where Sabos manage to land SEs in the 80-100K scale. How strong is this feat, you ask? Example TRs sporting at least a P.Vorpal (which is everybody), and Arterial Cut (see below) will have 140% Critical Severity.
A base damage increase of 25% is easily as strong as the P.Vorpal itself which just adds +50% severity.
Notice what the Executioner tree has to compete with this (considering how Exe was the supposed burst path);
Whereas the Sab feat diminishes with stealth, the Shadowborn is only applied to the first attack. Therefore if we calculate the ceiling, a high-risk Executioner only has the potential to deal 10% more damage than a low-risk Saboteur.
To sum that up, the Sab tree has many feats that do not belong in an attrition-based survivable path.
This feat needs to be moved up in the Executioner tree.
...and then look at what WK Scoundrels have to compete with, and you have a glimpse into my daily life
I'm not sure what the Scoundrel is supposed to be any more, or Execs for that matter. I mean, nowadays, Scoundrel's don't have any significant more CC than Exec or Sabos, and Execs don't have any significantly better DPS than Sabos or Scoundrels (except for premeditated one-shot hits with dailies).
Basically the Sabo the CCs as well as other two paths, no-contest level of superior stealth than the other two paths, hits harder than the other two paths, hits easier than the other two paths, and lands mega-damage dailies as the other two paths.
You know what the irony is?
The irony is that the "falsified image of the super-TR" that people used as a scarecrow to bash all TRs during mod5 days, the TR that supposedly lands one-shot hits, permastealths, and CCs well all at the same time... its actually been realized -- mod6 Sabos.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Ironically, actually, you can't see it because it never leaves stealth.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
But then it won't be piercing, would it?
How about we address this matter in relation to another problem: tanks. One core aspect of being a tank in module 6 is the damage absorb mechanic. Astral Shield, Absolution, Warding Flare and CW Shield, to name a few. Whereas piercing damage should fully respect DR and deflect, it could instead bypass all kinds of damage absorption.
In that way piercing will be a more designated tool for taking down certain support classes like DC and OPal -- This gives TRs another sense of purpose (to assassinate tanks and healers) while decreasing its advantage over all the others.
Astral Shield: lasts 10 seconds. CC and burst the DC out of EAS. Or push the DC out of EAS.
CW shield: at-will to deplete, then rotate.
Those are clear counters that decrease the efficiency or even nullify the bonus given by those absorption tools. And force players to use some brain when facing these classes.
Piercing damage has no counter. Not in its current form. It's 100% active, all the time, spammed through at wills, hitting with SE.
It's not like "you pierce all enemies defenses for 10 seconds". Or "you pierce all the enemy defenses for 10 hits, then you pierce only 25% of them".
Indeed, like for all the things, if you want piercing to stay, the above would be more in line. Like, for example, the TR first hit ignores 100% of enemy defenses. Second hit, 90%. Third 80. And so on. Or reversed, first hit ignores 10%, then up to 100% with each hit, the 10s cooldown.
Would at least force some resemblance of tactic, timing and knowledge to deal serious damage.
What should be UNMITIGABLE and absolute is the defense coming from dodge, for ALL classes. Like normal dodge immunity, GWF and SW 30% DR from shift should be absolute. Meaning if you hit them during their shift, your damage gets cut by 30%, period. It's not immunity like for other classes, just mitigation, and in exchange GWFs and SWs have the longer frames that their shift grants.
Since warlocks have more sprint time, it would also work as a sort of buff for the class in PvP.
Shocking Execution should pierce through all enemies defenses ONLY when the enemy is under 30% HP. Else, it gets fully mitigated.
Also, i would move piercing damage to Executioner, Sabo builds are not meant to deal damage. You can buff other encounters, let them keep ITC but dealing less damage than they do now. It's a survivability path NOT a damage path. Should SLOWLY take away the enemy HPs.
"but how do we kill tanks then!!!".
Go executioner. Is a sentinel or a tank build GF able to kill a Sabo TR? I don't think. So why should the Sabo survivability/ "tank" TR path, also work as a "tank killer"?
Scoundrel should work like HR trapper. Giving considerably more CC capability, with medium damage, to specifically deal with OPally, Tank DC exc...
So it's not nerfs that people ask, like the crying TRs say. What players ask is to give each path a proper role and avoid putting everything in one path, Saboteur, that gets to have the best survivability, the best damage which is also the easiest to land with little effort.
And avoid nonsense 100% piercing nuke hits that cannot be dodged by 2 classes. Which is a dumb mechanic, no matter how you look at it.
"But we need SE to kill a GWF"
Want to kill a tank? Stack ArP and power.
Want to crit a lot? Stack crit.
Want to be very survivable, dodge roll all over the place, go ITC immune, stay in stealth the rest of the time?
then sorry, forget about being a killing machine and prepare to take a LONG time to SLOWLY take down a tank. Your survivability gives you that much time. No hurry.
What I propose is to make piercing physical damage with a twist. As physical damage, it will be affected by tenacity DR, base DR, buff DR and enchantments. Around 50-80% nerf. Isn't that what everybody was asking in the first place? We can say we want it gone all we want, but if the devs disagree, it is there to stay.
But to render piercing that way is to defy the meaning and logic of "piercing" for all intents and purposes. If it's piercing, then it's supposed to pierce something.
Take, EAS, it makes a perfect example;
I've always supported my statements with careful study, and when I say it feels better, it often does. It's not an argument whether some shields or absorbs already have a counter or not. It's about getting something useful out of a "piercing nerf" in the name of balance.
If all you want is to take something away and leave all of my problems intact, then you are not after balance, you just want open-hunting season on all TRs. You certainly have some pent-up revenge issues going on.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
actually u r right, it was AD&D but I forgot which edition I played. Back then there was no Tiamat, she was called Dark Tahkesis
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
There's no way you can get 1 shoted by SE once you get these, because EHP bonus is a lot higher than dmg bonus.
Actually, there is only 2 classes who are directly in danger against SE
Sw and gwf ( the other class can dodge it or mitigate damage, it's not that hard unless for deaf...)
Gwf could but only with some luck and unstoppable, which will happen 1/100(0)
Sw got poor basic defense, so even if there was not piercing damage, they would take almost same amount of damage
Gwf are indeed directly impacted against that skill ( but, correct me if i'm wrong, there is not much skill from any class that can easy kill a gwf without allowing them to escape)
So, i think that instead of remove piercing damage they should reduce some things :
- direct damage ( like they did for DJ's paladin )
- remove the additional bonus that allow a tr to use a second Se if they hited a target with low hp
And in front of that, dc's sigil is a real problem for it ( like for paladin, and anyway, this artifact is a real problem for many reason.) ), it just allows tr to spam daily
This is entirely untrue, it is a danger to everyone minus perhaps unkillable DCs and OPs.
The classes that can dodge it is certainly easier on, but any TR that can count can simply time his SE for when dodging is not an option.
GF and OP also have no dodge, they both have block but block is runs out and while it is active they can do literally nothing they are not a threat. The OP are unkillable but soon as they nerf their godhood if would be a massive problem for them as well. The real problem is in team matches when suddenly CC is everywhere and its easy for a TR to get behind you in the case of a GF so guard is worthless at that point. Or with a TR that is suing bilethorn and which slows your movement to basically nothing so again your guard is worthless.
The fact is massive attacks which ignore DR and long duration CC like extended daze needs to be removed from PVP.
The most pressing imbalance with Shocking Execution (coming from an experienced TR who played all possible TR builds out there since BETA, sabo, SE, WK builds no exception) is that...
It's too easy. I'm going to cover two points to describe that.
Point 1;
There are currently only three powers (or combo if you will) that rivals the damage we can do; the IBS, the GF combo, Ice Knife. Damage-wise if we compare it post-mitigation, factoring buffs and debuffs, those are the only skills that's possible to set up to hit as hard as a "normal" Shocking Execution. I say normal, not the First Strike 130K SE one.
However, IBS, for example, takes 4635713464513245 stacks of various buffs to set up. Bull Charge/Anvil of Doom takes a bit of min-maxing and good timing. Ice Knife, well, you won't have trouble finding a CW who would tell you that landing a good Ice Knife isn't easy.
Shocking Execution does 50K on average, with just a press of a button, top it off with the DC artifact and you have another shot. Soulforged? Doesn't matter, daily again.
Point 2; Factoring skill
We can all agree that pressing one button takes no skill. It doesn't mean you're dumb. You could be smart. You could be the best TR player on the server. Introduce a simple math;
Shocking Execution = overpowered
Shocking Execution + Skilled Player = nuclear
Every troll-brained idiot says (by default) that you can't be a skilled player if you are MI/TR using SE. Prove you wrong. You're welcome.
[*] Animation cancel SE by dodging. Built properly, your TR can outdodge any other class and time the hit just as they are out of stamina. It doesn't matter if you are a SW without a real dodge or an HR.
[*] "Exploit" the first strike bug, where if you swap First Strike in and out before entering combat, you still have its bonus active.
[*] Or do it the non exploitative way: Reset First Strike. Daily up > Stealth > disengage combat briefly to re-contest the node as soon as HD debuff drops > Shocking Execution ... SigDiv > repeat.
Not every TR can do all of the above, but if you're faced with one that can, it becomes an entirely different playing field where TR=God, You=Worm.
On a final note, one of the best counters to SE is a permadodge Elven build of any class (besides SW and GWF).
/end_of_bickering