As a SW I'm constantly killed by TRs because I can do absolutely nothing to protect myself from them. I can't see them, so can't attack or run away. Control spells are always dodged.
I spend a lot of matches just being killed by TRs over and over.
1) 50-60k regular, 80k+ bis, unavoidable
2) it's not really dodgeable in a fight. Even using leap. In a fight you have fast shift, fingers are always on button. So it's a natural dodge. It's the dodge mechanic of this game. Powers are NOT meant to be slotted to use them as a dodge to compensate a flawed mechanic. It's sub-optimal rotation requiring very VERY fast reaction vs pressing one button. It was like that with the 'predict' argument vs stealth. You TRs want the easy cheesy mechanic and tell US gwf to do very estreme skill-requiring moves to compensate. What about learning to play with skills and time-aim your powers and build your toon instead of relying on piercing damage, permastealth, hits from stealth and unavoidable cheesy nuke, while asking to gwfs to predict and slot useless encounters just to balance one of your broken mechanics? Can you play with skills or you need the game to play for you some more? Just asking Since many TRs basically, like you, say "it's OK if i can stay in stealth 90% of the time, hit ranged from stealth, ignore all your defenses, and also have a nuke that allows me to cheese a 50/60/80k+ hit for free, 100% guaranteed even if i close my eyes. You can predict my movements and slot an aoe gap closing attack to use it as a dodge. If you can react in a split second and double tap it in time".
3) with DC sigil you can have daily up in all fights= guaranteed 50-60k or 80k+ damage on the gwf
4) gwf dailies deal damage close to ibs. Savage advance is same damage. Since it's fair if it's a daily, i want savage advance to pierce through your dodges, ITC and all defenses.
Deal?
You guys always have this very weird idea of balance where you're allowed to have easy tools and low- risk-high reward mechanics, while the gwf must be a jedi to overcome with skills these mechanics that, otherwise, favor you. You can dodge, and hit 100% pressing a button. We can predict and change our rotation+be tight and perfectly time leap, just to survive your 'kill gwf button' mechanic.
If you want higher damage output, then you should be playing some other path.
Like what? Executioner? Prove me how executioner doing higher damage in mod 6 then, even with Last Moments and Deathknell. The lack of killing tools is a fact. You still need at least 2 defence encounters slotted. (SS, BAIT OR ITC)
I were running Scoundrel in mod 5 and executioner at the start of mod 6.
No offence but the their damage are a joke.
Stuff like the classic firststrike + LB for executioners, or for Scoundrels stuff like Lurker's+ any daze + Oppressive Darkness + DF. There is no lack of killing tools. This supposed 'lack' is nothing but a self-imposed limitation from people who have become so spoiled and lazy by killing tools that require no real tactical set-ups or consideration or brains, something you can just flaunt around from utmost safety and get results of a broken risk-reward ratio.
When you attack, you expect to be retaliated. When you attack from safety, with small to zero chance of being retaliated, then it is only reasonable to expect that your attacks won't have any effect.
But in turn, it NEEDS to struggle to really take something down to kill it. If the Sabo has access to strong enough weapons with higher damage output, then what's the point of playing any other class like the scoundrel or executioner?
True, but it is not my design. If you build your TR in scoundrel now, you deserve no kill
A sudden cop-out?
Jump DF to land only the 3rd attack. This was the basic of basics since the olden days, which was briefly forgotten after mod5 appeared (which probably means anyone started playing TRs since mod5 would probably have no idea what I'm talking about -- but any veteran from before mod5 knows what I'm talking about).
Dont talk to me like an old-know-everything-man please, I come here at mod 2.
TR has been changed from "At-Will powers will no longer deplete your stealth" to "Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack.".
Decrease the ITC from immune to all damage to percentage DR.
A lot changes have been made, 3rd attack is easily avoidable by jump away. If you are truly old player you know what I m talking about, I dont blame on this change, cus its more like skill based.
You may have been here since mod2, but your reading comprehension sucks. You could have read a bit slower and carefully and found out where my suggestions come from, and upon what it is based (as in, the suggestion to the changes to SO which would have 0 stealth depletion for melee at-wills), instead of pull some random thing out of context.
Again. Ask any TR player since mod2 who used to fight GWFs to a standstill. We used to do it ALL the time.
Can you just stop using "I know stuff cus I m old player" cliché? Standstill require immune to all damage ITC
Are their same TR we are talking about?
It is funny how you quote one line of changes, and then simply ignore others that have changed towards our favor. Stuff like the general increase in damage, auto-crit from stealth, higher deflection chance, changes to variety of enchantments we can capitalize on, as well as new tactics that have developed since mod5. There are plenty of ways to fight a good fight against any GWF of your same skill/gear level without having to rely on (and make excuses for) broken krap WoE+CoS+SO piercing damage+LostM spamming.
Are these 'plenty of ways' as safe as spamming overbuffed CoS from stealth? No. Can you be as unkillable and advantageous as you can be against the GWF of your own calibre? H3LL, NO.. You can kill, but using other methods can get you killed as well if the GWF knows what he's doing. But then isn't that the WHOLE FRICKIN' POINT of pvp?
For a Sabo, you fight in an odd, odd manner. I'm not certain whether I need to actually answer your questions, or suggest something to check upon just at what level TR gameplay you are at -- no insult intended.
All I can say is, if you have any member who has a TR and remembers how we used to do it old school, ask him. That would be the easiest way to explain. Or come to the TR forums and put ask us in a seperate thread, then we'll probably be able to answer there.
Again, "I know stuff cus I m old player".
And this is insult.
Perhaps. But that doesn't mean it's untrue. Nor does you being a veteran player as I am, mean you know what you are talking about. Because for a veteran player that should have fought a h3lluva lot more fights against seemingly impossible GWF odds, you seem to have completely forgotten what innovative tactics means to us TRs.
You're a sellout. You've let it easy on yourself to the easy-peasy no-brainer changes to the MI/Sabo's wonderous "spam CoS from safety and that kills everything for me". Admit it.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
1. Nobody I know uses First Strike (there are a number of far superior class features, especially if a TR is specced into Master Infiltrator). If they did, the likelihood that Shocking Execution would be that 'first strike' is pretty low.
Perfect Vorpal, possibly -- but how many people do you know that have one? Do you have any idea how much time and effort it takes to refine enchantments to that level, let alone the cost between Astral Diamonds or Coalescent Wards? You folks make it sound like every TR has a Perfect Vorpal laying around... a ridiculous proposition, to say the least.
2. Our guild's foremost TR (high up in the PvP rankings) -- said at most he's done like 45k with a SE when I mentioned this in TeamSpeak just now, and he has a Pure Vorpal (two other 'best in slot' rogues in our channel tried hitting training dummies for me, also reporting that they did around 45k with crits). He also said that he's been hit for 46k with a Disintegrate, to give an example of comparable attacks. I reiterate that 85k for a SE is a nonsensical number, possible only if you have a PvP setup that's designed for single hit damage (or a Wheel, which is being nerfed).
Another test from another BiS rogue just now, with *PvE* gear and Smoke -- he had 20,000+ Power. 58.9 without Smoke Bomb, and 65k with Smoke. 85k was possible with said PvE gear and First Strike, but that's PvE gear.
You CANNOT be close to 'one shotted' with Shocking Execution from a TR in PvP gear, without First Strike or a lucky Wheel spin. Not even with a top tier Vorpal enchantment involved. Period.
The numbers simply aren't there, much as I suspected. This is exactly why I asked you for proof, pando83.
So this topic's done. Using scenarios like this to make one's case against Shocking Execution is quite a stretch. If you feel First Strike is the overpowered factor here, you're more than welcome to argue for a First Strike nerf.
1. Nobody I know uses First Strike (there are a number of far superior class features, especially if a TR is specced into Master Infiltrator). If they did, the likelihood that Shocking Execution would be that 'first strike' is pretty low.
Perfect Vorpal, possibly -- but how many people do you know that have one? Do you have any idea how much time and effort it takes to refine enchantments to that level, let alone the cost between Astral Diamonds or Coalescent Wards? You folks make it sound like every TR has a Perfect Vorpal laying around... a ridiculous proposition, to say the least.
Which is irrelevant to this discussion. The fact that you don't have means, or funds, to gear up to desired levels suitable for PvP has nothing to do with the game's balance, nor should it be even a factor. The complaints and frustrations surrounding this game's greedy and abusive atttitude towards its players is a sentiment we all share with, but has no place in a PvP balance discussion.
2. Our guild's foremost TR (who is high up on the PvP pages) -- said at most he's done like 45k with a Shocking when I mentioned this in TeamSpeak just now, and he has a Pure Vorpal (two other 'best in slot' rogues in our channel tried hitting training dummies for me, also reporting that they did around 45k with crits). He also said that he's been hit for 46k with a Disintegrate, to give an example of comparable attacks. I reiterate that 85k for a SE is a WILDLY fantastical number, possible only if you have a PvP setup that's designed for single hit damage alone.
Another test from one of our rogues just now, with *PvE* gear and Smoke -- he had 20,000+ Power. 58.9 without Smoke Bomb, and 65k with Smoke. 85k was possible with said PvE gear and First Strike, but that's PvE gear.
You CANNOT be 'one shotted' with Shocking Execution from a TR in PvP gear, without First Strike. Not even with a top tier Vorpal enchantment involved. Period. The numbers simply aren't there, much as I suspected.
You're a good liar though, pando83. I'll give you that. This is exactly why I asked you for proof.
Yep. "Scrubs have no idea how high the mountain goes"
So this topic's done. The facts are in, and your versions of the facts are way off.
Using highly unlikely scenarios like this to make one's case against Shocking Execution is quite a stretch. If you feel First Strike is the overpowered factor here, you're more than welcome to argue for a First Strike nerf.
I'll say it this nicely, one more time.
When you're at that low level of PvP gameplay, you simply don't have any idea just what is 'likely' and what's 'not likely', as in proficient TRs can load up 1-min cooldown SigDiv for 100% AP from the start of the game, start off with First Strike to literally start the first strike of the fight with a SE, and then change it to some other class feature during combat within 3~4 seconds, switch back to First Strike and hit a SE again, reset 8-second out of combat timer, activate SigDiv again and hit with SE again.
I don't know what your guild is or who your 'team's best TR' is, and I mean disrespect for none of them, but I must comment the levels of gameplay people can reach when it comes to the top-end PvP, is much, much, much more astounding than you can imagine.
Your argument would have been actually better, if it was directed towards how the best, highest level of PvP isn't always representative of the entire PvP scene, as the average level players and they matches they play are outnumber the "best" by far. Instead, you went on to try and discredit people who know what they're talking about, and who are regularly playing and experiencing levels of combat you have no idea about.
That's a mistake, friend.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
My sure strike's last hit crits 70k dmg on dummy, true story @_@
When you're at that low level of PvP gameplay, you simply don't have any idea just what is 'likely' and what's 'not likely', as in proficient TRs can load up 1-min cooldown SigDiv for 100% AP from the start of the game, start off with First Strike to literally start the first strike of the fight with a SE, and then change it to some other class feature during combat within 3~4 seconds, switch back to First Strike and hit a SE again, reset 8-second out of combat timer, activate SigDiv again and hit with SE again.
I don't know what your guild is or who your 'team's best TR' is, and I mean disrespect for none of them, but I must comment the levels of gameplay people can reach when it comes to the top-end PvP, is much, much, much more astounding than you can imagine.
Your argument would have been actually better, if it was directed towards how the best, highest level of PvP isn't always representative of the entire PvP scene, as the average level players and they matches they play are outnumber the "best" by far. Instead, you went on to try and discredit people who know what they're talking about, and who are regularly playing and experiencing levels of combat you have no idea about.
That's a mistake, friend.
1. Sorry, but it's simple math. This has nothing to do with my 'low level of PvP gameplay' -- three top tier TRs (as in BiS, much like the one who tried it with PvE gear) in my TeamSpeak said it's simply not possible as well. The rogue who did the PvE gear test for me is sitting at near-perfect BiS, with maxed Rank 11's across the board.
2. No MI TR with sense in their head uses First Strike. I've confirmed this (I've never used it) with far more experienced TR players. There are way better Class Features to use, that aren't as incredibly narrow in their purpose.
Your scenario is also utterly ridiculous, because SHOCKING EXECUTION CAN MISS THREE QUARTERS OF THE CLASSES -- as has been noted by people who want it nerfed in this very topic! Who in their right mind would ever spec their rogue for that sort of thing alone? Do you even read this nonsense before you post it?
3. The TR who tested this for me is on page 13 of the *overall* standings. Not the current preseason. Our guild's top TR is on page 18 of the same overall standings. They obviously have better gear and more experience than most.
So save your 'appeal to authority' fallacies for people who care. I've provided more than enough evidence to substantiate my claims from rogues who are top tier in every fashion, and none of you have done the same.
You don't know what you're talking about in reality, nor does pando83.
Like I said before, this topic's done. Shocking Execution is definitely not consistently 'doing the majority of someone's HP' in damage. Let's talk about fixing the real broken stuff in PvP, before anyone complains about nerfing the TR again.
At this point, it seems you haven't even been reading. The point isn't even that people are getting fully one-shotted, but that a single attack that they can do nothing to avoid knocks off the majority of their hit points.
45k damage is not the 'majority' of any serious PvPer's hit points.
It is at best half, and I noted that other classes are doing equivalent amounts of damage without piercing. And for a GWF (especially with Determination active), half of their HP is even unlikely.
(Edit: The Warlock might have a case here, but the Warlock has more issues in PvP than a single attack from a TR -- and no rogue would be speccing for killing Warlocks alone).
Please read the above until you've properly comprehended why this topic was completely unnecessary.
1. Sorry, but it's simple math. This has nothing to do with my 'low level of PvP gameplay' -- three top tier TRs (as in BiS, much like the one who tried it with PvE gear) in my TeamSpeak said it's simply not possible as well. The rogue who did the PvE gear test for me is sitting at near-perfect BiS, with maxed Rank 11's across the board.
Are we gonna really play this game? "Quote someone-else-whom-I-refuse-to-name's authority as if it can hold any meaningful weight as objective evidence"? How about if I say many of the people posting here probably trumps whomever those "three top tier players" are by a far stretch of the word "high-end PvP"? Some of the guys posting here are already members of some of the most renowned and prestigious PvP guilds that have been long recognized, respected, as well as been antagonized and hated, by members of the PvP community.
Are you sure you want to pit your guild and your three players credit on the line against these people? Is this what a PvP discussion is supposed to be?
That's a pish-poor attitude and a weasly cop-out, friend. Stop it.
2. No MI TR with sense in their head uses First Strike. I've confirmed this (I've never used it) with far more experienced TR players. There are way better Class Features to use, that aren't as incredibly narrow in their purpose.
Your scenario is also utterly ridiculous, because SHOCKING EXECUTION CAN MISS THREE QUARTERS OF THE CLASSES -- as has been noted by people who want it nerfed in this very topic! Who in their right mind would ever spec their rogue for that sort of thing alone? Do you even read this nonsense before you post it?
You obviously have no idea how fast and often top players switch powers smack in the middle of combat, especially easy to do with TRs since stealth allows a quick access to powers menu safely. Don't think that you or your friends don't, or can't, do it, means others are the same. Don't make me repeat the phrase; "scrubs have no idea how high the mountain is"
3. The TR who tested this for me is on page 13 of the *overall* standings. Not the current preseason. Our guild's top TR is on page 18 of the same overall standings. They obviously have better gear and more experience than most.
So save your 'appeal to authority' fallacies for people who care. I've provided more than enough evidence to substantiate my claims from rogues who are top tier in every fashion, and none of you have done the same.
Want me to show you my 'overall' standings on page 7 during mod5 days? Since each page shows 20 people IIRC, does me having been 140 ranks higher than any of your 'friends' have been make me more credible or an absolute authority on what is right or wrong?
You didn't provide any evidence. All you've provided is your word on how you have a pish-poor, incomplete and low-performing TR build that hits less than 20k with a crit with Shocking Execution... and then when confronted by people with infinitely better experience than you, started quoting unknown people and tried to con the audience by pretending as if their status somehow reinforces your logic.
I wouldn't care if your friend was the president of the United States itself, when plain wrong is wrong. Or, I think I might actually dare you to bring them forth, and tell your friends to come here and make those statements themselves, because at this point your credibility is just dropping and dropping down the drain into god knows where.
You don't know what you're talking about in reality, nor does pando83.
Like I said before, this topic's done. Shocking Execution is definitely not consistently 'doing the majority of someone's HP' in damage. Let's talk about fixing the real broken stuff in PvP, before anyone complains about nerfing the TR again.
So far, what the people in this thread have seen is a 2k IL scrub with supposedly really, really futzed-up stats that hit less than 20k on SE crits, even against a combat dummy that's got no resistance, coming in the midst of people playing at much higher level of gameplay than oneself, claims all of them are wrong, and when confronted and questioned by others started quoting some mysterious, unknown person that's supposed to be on page 13 of the (currently bugged) leaderboards, as if an authority figure that is undisclosed has any sort of meaning.
...and then, as sudden as he appeared, declares he won the debate, and the issue is over.
...
I can certainly see why the schooling system is failing in the west, yes. Maybe the board should consider reinstating philosophy and basic logics into their regular curriculum again.
I'll tell you what, since you declared yourself right, and the winner of this discussion, I suggest you scram and go tell everyone how SE hits for only 20k on combat dummies. Yes, you're the winner. You trumped some of the best CW players, or very talented GWF players, or other class players in this thread, and you sure showed us what a real TR is supposed to be. With a loud round of applause, I'll escort your way out.
Please don't ever come show your face to us losers and liars, please. We're not worthy of your presence.
Shoo.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It's same for IBS, that high burst damage skill of GWF people complain about except that you need to stack many buffs before using IBS.
You are gonna hit 85k with one single button and not able to kill the enemy? I think you should consider deleting your character and leave the game for good. You can try facebook games, I heard people like them.
I already explained, first strike only does high damage at first strike.
And you just complain SE with an encounter?
Who will get killed by this should consider deleting his character and leave the game for good
Minecraft is a decent game
Does that easy easy-kill TR love make you really blind or are you kidding with me? You are complaining about how your at-will's last hit can be dodged and I said how our best damage skill is same.
As for SE you still can't comprehend the fact that "WE CAN'T AVOID NO MATTER WHAT". You are saying first strike can only be used once in a fight? After first SE, opponent will already have like 15-20k dmg left and you don't need first strike for 2nd SE but I will be real kind, ok here I will give you a tip which will be really useful for you in your next fights, GO STEALTH AND WAIT FIRST STRIKE TO BE ACTIVATED BEFORE USING SE 2ND TIME. Don't tell anyone else, it's kind of a secret.
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited July 2015
I would love to see our GWF's Savage Advance being unblockable/undodgable, 100% crit, piercing damage each time I hit the button.. that's gonna be so easy win... :>
Sigh. Okay, let me repeat myself one more time for you:
1. I can get proof that SE is a skill that regularly deals 45k with crits and a Pure Vorpal in-slot. 45k is at best, half of someone's HP -- I'm at a 2k IL, and I still have 90,000 HP. Even a 'fragile' class like a Control Wizard has roughly 100k. This is not a 'majority' -- not by any sense of the word. Let's review what the word 'majority' means:
"The number larger than half the total." (dictionary.com).
So by the definition of the word, this is not a 'majority' of your HP. And it's certainly not the 'majority' of how much HP a Great Weapon Fighter should have, especially with Determination active.
You want screenshots, I'll provide screenshots. You get me some proof that Shocking Execution is dealing the 'majority' of someone's HP in one hit without a Wheel involved, or speccing specifically for single hits (as with First Strike). Then I'm more than willing to take you seriously. Until you do, your claims will be taken with a grain of salt. A few special circumstances are NOT grounds for nerfing a skill or claiming it is overpowered; they are, at best, niche scenarios.
2. No, I'm not planning to identify my friends so that you can annoy them. I will get screenshots from them if they become necessary, but who my friends or guild are is frankly none of your business whatsoever. It's easy enough for you folks to boot up your own TRs (which I don't imagine you have) and test Shocking Execution for yourself.
I want to reiterate that it does NOT do 85k damage without special circumstances involved. It barely did 60k with 20,000+ Power from PvE gear. Let me go ahead and keep hammering that into you, until it's finally understood.
3. Kweassa said, "Want me to show you my 'overall' standings on page 7 during mod5 days?" No thank you, because that's precisely 100% irrelevant to Mod 6 in every way, shape and form.
As far as you endlessly slagging me for being a new player, that's fine. I wouldn't expect anything less from someone who has nothing to bring to the table, other than attacking the messenger instead of the message.
Let me make myself perfectly clear on this topic.
YOU are the ones making the claim that the skill does this kind of damage; the burden of proof is on YOU to prove these claims, not me. That I bothered to ask around about Shocking and have it tested among my friends and guild members is already more than any of you have done, before you started making baseless assertions about the amount of damage it supposedly does.
If it does not do the wild amounts of damage you claim, the piercing makes no realistic difference and only the lack of dodging on one class (the Warlock) is an issue worth talking about.
As it is, new players can do next to nothing to players who are higher geared -- and we are frequently match-made with you, with your Transcendent Negations and other ridiculous <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Taking piercing away from everything serves to further empower you and screw us into complete irrelevance. I have never seen a game more stacked against new players than Neverwinter.
You want to make PvP a better place for everyone, and not just yourselves? Start clamouring for a nerf to Negation, for starters. You won't do that, because everything you want is selfish in origin.
I'm also not a 'he', Kweassa. And your school system is absolutely failing more than that of the United States, if you claim an understanding of logic and philosophy when you don't understand how the burden of proof works.
Didn't you say the discussion is over? You already declared you're right, and said its end of story.
Why are you still here? Why linger around a discussion you've already proven yourself to be right?
Let us 'liars' talk peacefully amongst ourselves, please. Off you go, shoo.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Didn't you say the discussion is over? You already declared you're right, and said its end of story.
Why are you still here? Why linger around a discussion you've already proven yourself to be right?
Let us 'liars' talk peacefully amongst ourselves, please. Off you go, shoo.
I didn't just claim it, I can prove it. Like I said above, the burden of proof is on each of you; you folks made the claims. I've stated that people are lying about the basic damage it does, because I am certain I can back it up. Isn't it funny how that works? Making claims that someone can back up, what a novel concept! It's almost... logical.
...and no, you don't get to be condescending when you are this much of a self-righteous tool. Until you can prove the claims about its damage, you can have a seat and be silent yourself. The grown-ups are talking, and you've proven yourself more of a child when you sat around personally attacking me instead of my message. Get stuffed, Kweassa.
Gwf lacks a dodge too.
And that's exactly what we are talking about: se being undodgeable by SW and gwf.
About damage: se should respect tenacity cause all the powers in game except TR piercing respect it. It's supposed, like healing depression, to affect every class.
We stated one thing, you claimed that it's false cause your friends and you can hit 45k at best. It's not a matter of 'proof'.
Also, if you say someone is telling you lies, it's you who must support the claim.
Btw, i'm pretty sure that one of the above guys can provide proofs.
Only things, out of dodges, that can lower SE damage, are CW shield on tab and fully stacked negation, if i'm not mistaken.
However, just to make it clear, damage apart you say you have the right to be able to deal 45k damage for free through SW shift and gwf shift and unstoppable (it pierces through both). Just closing your eyes and pressing a button. Not willing to give a chance to dodge to the enemy. Also you want piercing damage fully ignoring the defensive part of someone' s build and giving you damage for free. Here too, just pressing one button with no timing, no aiming, no chance to fail the hit or have to deal with builds/stata (bothfor you and yyour enemy).
Now my question is: why you play an action-oriented mmorpg then? To press a button no matter when/ how, and see things appen?
I think that there are a lot of games where you can have easy wins and skills don't matter. Action mmorpgs are not supposed to be like that. Are supposed to be made of aiming, timing, dodging.
If you want easy stuff made of just pressing one button, i don't know, you may want to try some single player game at easy level and with godmode activated.
This game is supposed to be about action and being proactive until devs say otherwise.
My sure strike's last hit crits 70k dmg on dummy, true story @_@
It's been reported time ago.
Sure strike is acting weird and i think it's not wai. Should be fixed.
In pvp i see 20k-30k SS.
Need a fix but you don't really read complaints cause it's mixed with other damage, requires gwf to have full stacks, is mitigated further by tenacity/negation and can be dodged. So when the gwf is at full stacks, players may just assume he will vaporize their hp on touch and do not check the source, or plain dodge it/mitigate.
So in game you just add negation stacks, base dr, tenacity and dodges that rarely make the 3rd and 4th buffed hits connect, and players are more concerned about ibs.
That damage imho might be coming from vorpal/weapon enchant+ feats +full damage stacks+artifact weapon SS boost. Devs should take a look into it.
]It's been reported time ago.
Sure strike is acting weird and i think it's not wai. Should be fixed.
In pvp i see 20k-30k SS.
Need a fix but you don't really read complaints cause it's mixed with other damage, requires gwf to have full stacks, is mitigated further by tenacity/negation and can be dodged. So when the gwf is at full stacks, players may just assume he will vaporize their hp on touch and do not check the source, or plain dodge it/mitigate.
So in game you just add negation stacks, base dr, tenacity and dodges that rarely make the 3rd and 4th buffed hits connect, and players are more concerned about ibs.
That damage imho might be coming from vorpal/weapon enchant+ feats +full damage stacks+artifact weapon SS boost. Devs should take a look into it.
Just curiosity, Were you using vorpal or fey?
Are we sure it's not some sort of a ninja-buff? Because I've noticed it (although in my interrim development state it's a way lot weaker than the numbers above) as well, and for some reason I thought, "Oh cool, so they made the last, big downwards swing sort of a semi-encounterish power..." and have actually thought about developing some tactics around it.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited July 2015
Its a useless build requiring many conditions to make it happen. PM me ingame at @icyphish and I will show you how you can do that too. btw this build sux in actual pvp cus even after you meet all conditions you only have about 3-4 seconds to hit this much.
My sure strike's last hit crits 70k dmg on dummy, true story @_@
It's been reported time ago.
Sure strike is acting weird and i think it's not wai. Should be fixed.
In pvp i see 20k-30k SS.
Need a fix but you don't really read complaints cause it's mixed with other damage, requires gwf to have full stacks, is mitigated further by tenacity/negation and can be dodged. So when the gwf is at full stacks, players may just assume he will vaporize their hp on touch and do not check the source, or plain dodge it/mitigate.
So in game you just add negation stacks, base dr, tenacity and dodges that rarely make the 3rd and 4th buffed hits connect, and players are more concerned about ibs.
That damage imho might be coming from vorpal/weapon enchant+ feats +full damage stacks+artifact weapon SS boost. Devs should take a look into it.
Sigh. Okay, let me repeat myself one more time for you:
1. I can get proof that SE is a skill that regularly deals 45k with crits and a Pure Vorpal in-slot. 45k is at best, half of someone's HP -- I'm at a 2k IL, and I still have 90,000 HP. Even a 'fragile' class like a Control Wizard has roughly 100k. This is not a 'majority' -- not by any sense of the word. Let's review what the word 'majority' means:
We stated one thing, you claimed that it's false cause your friends and you can hit 45k at best. It's not a matter of 'proof'.
Well no, it is. You claimed it does 85k. It doesn't do that without a very specific setup and boatloads of Power.
That's not legitimate grounds for a nerfing. The TR's damage abilities have been drying up for a while now as it is, and you want to nerf the final one that does any damage so that your defenses can finish making the class irrelevant.
Btw, i'm pretty sure that one of the above guys can provide proofs.
They'd have done it already. I'm telling you that with 20,000+ Power from PvE gear, it wasn't doing 85k (without also slotting First Strike). If you require a screenshot to solidify this reality for you, I can get you one.
Some of the above guys also claimed that rogues are switching back and forth between First Strike in PvP, not to mention that they likely haven't played a TR much in Mod 6 (and certainly not since the Shadowy nerf). I think their opinions on the matter -- and they are opinions, not facts -- can be safely disregarded.
Only things, out of dodges, that can lower SE damage, are CW shield on tab and fully stacked negation, if i'm not mistaken.
The latter of which is easily the most common armour enchantment in the game, at the moment. It's so common that you'd think people were handing Negation enchantments out like candy.
However, just to make it clear, damage apart you say you have the right to be able to deal 45k damage for free through SW shift and gwf shift and unstoppable (it pierces through both).
You also seem to be assuming that said GWF is alone, which is usually far from the truth. Shocking Execution is so often dodged in PvP, that I don't even slot it anymore. A daily that can only hit 2/8 classes (and at best like 25-50% of the time) isn't a very useful daily now, is it? If I could have Hateful Knives on an Infiltrator, I'd GLADLY make that trade.
Just closing your eyes and pressing a button. Not willing to give a chance to dodge to the enemy.
If you PvPed as a TR at all (and at this point, I'm heavily doubting that you do from your cluelessness), you'd see that Shocking is dodged with regularity. Like I said above, I'd gladly trade it for the Whisperknife daily in a heartbeat. Knocking things prone is far more useful than piercing damage that can miss as much as Shocking can.
Also you want piercing damage fully ignoring the defensive part of someone' s build and giving you damage for free.
Yeah, I do. Because that's what you'd assume an assassin sort of class would be doing -- damage that ignores defenses. Thanks to whining from your sort of person, we currently have the 'Age of Tank'. Unless you're geared to the gills, you cannot even attempt to hurt some individuals in PvP any longer. New players stand absolutely no chance thanks to poor matchmaking and broken class abilities/Negation enchantments that bounce their damage like raindrops on a tin roof. It's not unusual for me to do constant 0's to DCs and Paladins. What fun, right?
This game is supposed to be about action and being proactive until devs say otherwise.
This game is anything but action in current PvP. It's usually one of two things: 1) a steamrolling where one team is far more geared than the other or 2) one of those matches where everybody has super defenses, that goes on for around a hour and has few deaths to show for it. I can count the number of close matches I've had in Domination ON ONE HAND, out of several hundred of them.
That's how bad it is. That's the sort of game people like you have made of this.
Neverwinter endlessly screws new players over, and you're busy complaining about rather silly things like this. Why don't you start complaining about the sorts of things that keep new players around in the face of people who are buying millions of AD for low, low prices? More piercing damage I say, rather than less. The L70 PvP in this game is terrible in every sense of the word.
I'd be truly shocked if this game isn't hemorrhaging new players. Much of the Mod 6 content is as monotonous as it gets, and it makes you want to quit the game fast in frustration after hitting 70.
If you PvPed as a TR at all (and at this point, I'm heavily doubting that you do from your cluelessness), you'd see that Shocking is dodged with regularity.
Geez can't you freaking understand? GWF AND SW DON'T HAVE DODGE SKILL.
Here that damage you wanted to see so bad, https://youtu.be/lTW2GtcshWE. It's in the forum, instead of accusing people of lying with your zero knowledge you should have just searched a little bit. I didn't even need to watch whole video just look at second 20 and you will see some nice 118k damage.
If you PvPed as a TR at all (and at this point, I'm heavily doubting that you do from your cluelessness), you'd see that Shocking is dodged with regularity.
Geez can't you freaking understand? GWF AND SW DON'T HAVE DODGE SKILL.
Here that damage you wanted to see so bad...
*posts something from before the Shadowy nerf*
"Oh my god guys, he was murdering new players in one hit when it was mostly only one guy at a time, with First Strike slotted. Look at how you can see that Control Wizard (or anyone else, really) barely fazing him! Clearly this calls for more nerfs than just the Feat that was doing large pools of damage! I KNOW EVERYTHING BECAUSE I SAW IT ON YOUTUBE, DISREGARD THE TR WHO HAS PLAYED NOTHING BUT THAT CLASS IN MOD 6 FOR A WHILE NOW."
TR in green gear.
You said gwf/SW is not always alone? TR isn't either.
Now that's a green gear TR. Hitting se over 100k.
Now give me proof a bis TR cannot deal 80k at least.
Also:
You keep saying what others claim can be disregarded, but what you say is what only matters. Be less biased as many guys above have 10x the pvp experience of a 2k ilvl TR.
What about considring the fact you are wrong, perhaps.
Also: you know you can slot 2 dailies? So, to explain: you can slot one daily for other classes and se for gwfs and SW. This allows you to have a free nuke on these classes.
Assassin is not supposed to ignore defenses, this is one assumption you make.
You list matchmaking issues which players like me asked to fix since ages.
You list immortal tank issues we didn't request and asked to fix.
You say it's OK for you to have something broken cause there is bad matchmaking (we all deal with that, but don't have undodgeable nuke to compensate) or cause devs made bad gameplay choices that players told them NOT to do when they tested it on preview.
I'm sorry to say this but with your posts you just kinda proved to not have the experience or knowledge to know what's going on.
Also claiming that matchmaking issues is fault of players like me...you serious? If devs would listen to players like me, we would have separate premade and pug queue, ilvl brackets and skill-based gameplay for all classes.
Asking for cheesy broken stuff is not the answer, it's childish.
Negation is broken, asked for a fix in multiple threads and devs didn't answer. But it will get a fix eventually, always been like that since 2 years.
I play a regular 2.6k ilvl gwf, always solo queue, always fight. Yesterday got pit vs saber, 4k+ ilvl gwf, and got to fight a hopeless battle at mid the entire match.
All my hits are dodgeable, can be mitigated, and i'm not asking for free damage to compensate matchmaking fault like you do.
I work my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off and made it to page 18-22 of ncl (supposed to be top 40 for gwfs). Wanna know how?
Was losing a match vs team with 2 tank dcs. Talked to another gwf in my team. Changed strategy. Coordinated to stunlock the dcs and take them down. Won.
Was losing a match vs sabo TR spamming undodgeable se. Changed rotation, sacrificed myself and made my team won.
Other games i was losing and reversed either changing rotation, tactic or both.
One game i was using one rotation on a node vs TR, clearing him cause i consistently outplayed him, then switching to stunlock to face DC on mid, then switch to full damage for CW, and back to TR changing again.
Solo queue is often unfair.
But asking for broken stuff to compensate is what truly ruins the game.
Players who work to achieve a seemingly hopeless win, and use skills, are the ones trying to change the game for the better.
If some players want just to press one button and profit can go play Pac-Man.
Also: NW favors big whales spending money. It's like this in many f2p. You either accept it or change game.
Crying "please let me keep a broken mechanic so i can face somehow a 4k ilvl gwf on my 2k TR", is, again, not the answer.
If you don't like the game, quit it. If you find it unfair on one side, trying to keep it unfair on another side to profit from it will only make things worst.
And that attitude is exactly what made the game what it is today.
I'm done mate, i recommend you don't waste time either. They are either blind or pretending, either way there is no point to talk. I gave the proof they asked and once again told our argument which we have no way to avoid that stupid damage. They just wanna be able to kill people with double item level as they do with ease.
TR in green gear.
You said gwf/SW is not always alone? TR isn't either.
Now that's a green gear TR. Hitting se over 100k.
Now give me proof a bis TR cannot deal 80k at least.
Read the above post, about how the video is before Shadowy got nerfed. That rogue has also got First Strike perma-slotted, despite that it's practically useless in any fight where the teams are remotely even. He's in a top tier PvP guild from what I can tell, meaning that his team was likely steamrolling the new player-looking opposition.
I know what I'm talking about, far more than you think I do. As a new player, I have played nothing BUT the Trickster Rogue, including before and after the Shadowy nerf (and including the Whisperknife paragon, of which I was easily the best Whisperknife player in the first wave of the current preseason in the 60 tier). I've also had some of the top players of said class to learn from and observe, and tried many different spec variations of said class in Mod 6.
Do those other people have more PvP experience overall than I do? Of course, and I'm not debating that. Do I have more experience with the TR in Mod 6 than they do? I can virtually guarantee it. I've played hundreds of hours of just that class and no others. Shocking isn't as useful as you think, because GWFs and SWs aren't played all that often.
They don't tank well, and the other classes -- far beyond the TR alone -- will tear GWFs and SWs that aren't top geared or highly skilled limb from limb. Notice how there's only ONE Warlock on the first two pages of the preseason, and all of five Great Weapon Fighters? That's six out of forty top tier players, playing those classes.
Look at the fifteen or so Control Wizards (almost half of the first two pages!). Now you know why.
Green gear TR with pvorp and legendary dc sigil, Pando start making sens please, for now this is another "pls nerf this class i cant win against him".
It's stated by the guy who posted the video. Enchants can be switched.
Even so, green or not, shows higher damage.
Also, as i stated, it's the unavoidable unmitigated part that we are discussing.
So it's not me who must make some sense, it's the guys saying that a undodgeable unavoidable nuke on SW/gwf, going right through our shift dr, unstoppable, everything, with piercing damage on TR being the only damage going through tenacity too, is fine.
Saying that since matchmaking is unfair, then you need a power that vs 2 classes lands 100% going full damage no matter what, just pressing a button, that is what does not make sense.
Amazes me the fact we must discuss if a nuke that cannot be dodged/ defended against no matter what, on gwfs and warlocks, is OK.
If so, since matchmaking often puts me vs 3/4k ilvl sabo trs, i want piercing daily too hitting 100% through your dodges, ITC, and dealing full damage no matter what. Like savage advantage or indomitable strenght, of crescendo, hitting you at full power always, no matter what, with me just pressing a button.
I tell you dude, it's not me who must make some sense but the ones defending such godmode mechanics.
Comments
I spend a lot of matches just being killed by TRs over and over.
1) 50-60k regular, 80k+ bis, unavoidable
2) it's not really dodgeable in a fight. Even using leap. In a fight you have fast shift, fingers are always on button. So it's a natural dodge. It's the dodge mechanic of this game. Powers are NOT meant to be slotted to use them as a dodge to compensate a flawed mechanic. It's sub-optimal rotation requiring very VERY fast reaction vs pressing one button. It was like that with the 'predict' argument vs stealth. You TRs want the easy cheesy mechanic and tell US gwf to do very estreme skill-requiring moves to compensate. What about learning to play with skills and time-aim your powers and build your toon instead of relying on piercing damage, permastealth, hits from stealth and unavoidable cheesy nuke, while asking to gwfs to predict and slot useless encounters just to balance one of your broken mechanics? Can you play with skills or you need the game to play for you some more? Just asking Since many TRs basically, like you, say "it's OK if i can stay in stealth 90% of the time, hit ranged from stealth, ignore all your defenses, and also have a nuke that allows me to cheese a 50/60/80k+ hit for free, 100% guaranteed even if i close my eyes. You can predict my movements and slot an aoe gap closing attack to use it as a dodge. If you can react in a split second and double tap it in time".
3) with DC sigil you can have daily up in all fights= guaranteed 50-60k or 80k+ damage on the gwf
4) gwf dailies deal damage close to ibs. Savage advance is same damage. Since it's fair if it's a daily, i want savage advance to pierce through your dodges, ITC and all defenses.
Deal?
You guys always have this very weird idea of balance where you're allowed to have easy tools and low- risk-high reward mechanics, while the gwf must be a jedi to overcome with skills these mechanics that, otherwise, favor you. You can dodge, and hit 100% pressing a button. We can predict and change our rotation+be tight and perfectly time leap, just to survive your 'kill gwf button' mechanic.
Lol?
Stuff like the classic firststrike + LB for executioners, or for Scoundrels stuff like Lurker's+ any daze + Oppressive Darkness + DF. There is no lack of killing tools. This supposed 'lack' is nothing but a self-imposed limitation from people who have become so spoiled and lazy by killing tools that require no real tactical set-ups or consideration or brains, something you can just flaunt around from utmost safety and get results of a broken risk-reward ratio.
When you attack, you expect to be retaliated. When you attack from safety, with small to zero chance of being retaliated, then it is only reasonable to expect that your attacks won't have any effect.
A sudden cop-out?
You may have been here since mod2, but your reading comprehension sucks. You could have read a bit slower and carefully and found out where my suggestions come from, and upon what it is based (as in, the suggestion to the changes to SO which would have 0 stealth depletion for melee at-wills), instead of pull some random thing out of context.
It is funny how you quote one line of changes, and then simply ignore others that have changed towards our favor. Stuff like the general increase in damage, auto-crit from stealth, higher deflection chance, changes to variety of enchantments we can capitalize on, as well as new tactics that have developed since mod5. There are plenty of ways to fight a good fight against any GWF of your same skill/gear level without having to rely on (and make excuses for) broken krap WoE+CoS+SO piercing damage+LostM spamming.
Are these 'plenty of ways' as safe as spamming overbuffed CoS from stealth? No. Can you be as unkillable and advantageous as you can be against the GWF of your own calibre? H3LL, NO.. You can kill, but using other methods can get you killed as well if the GWF knows what he's doing. But then isn't that the WHOLE FRICKIN' POINT of pvp?
Perhaps. But that doesn't mean it's untrue. Nor does you being a veteran player as I am, mean you know what you are talking about. Because for a veteran player that should have fought a h3lluva lot more fights against seemingly impossible GWF odds, you seem to have completely forgotten what innovative tactics means to us TRs.
You're a sellout. You've let it easy on yourself to the easy-peasy no-brainer changes to the MI/Sabo's wonderous "spam CoS from safety and that kills everything for me". Admit it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Perfect Vorpal, possibly -- but how many people do you know that have one? Do you have any idea how much time and effort it takes to refine enchantments to that level, let alone the cost between Astral Diamonds or Coalescent Wards? You folks make it sound like every TR has a Perfect Vorpal laying around... a ridiculous proposition, to say the least.
2. Our guild's foremost TR (high up in the PvP rankings) -- said at most he's done like 45k with a SE when I mentioned this in TeamSpeak just now, and he has a Pure Vorpal (two other 'best in slot' rogues in our channel tried hitting training dummies for me, also reporting that they did around 45k with crits). He also said that he's been hit for 46k with a Disintegrate, to give an example of comparable attacks. I reiterate that 85k for a SE is a nonsensical number, possible only if you have a PvP setup that's designed for single hit damage (or a Wheel, which is being nerfed).
Another test from another BiS rogue just now, with *PvE* gear and Smoke -- he had 20,000+ Power. 58.9 without Smoke Bomb, and 65k with Smoke. 85k was possible with said PvE gear and First Strike, but that's PvE gear.
You CANNOT be close to 'one shotted' with Shocking Execution from a TR in PvP gear, without First Strike or a lucky Wheel spin. Not even with a top tier Vorpal enchantment involved. Period.
The numbers simply aren't there, much as I suspected. This is exactly why I asked you for proof, pando83.
So this topic's done. Using scenarios like this to make one's case against Shocking Execution is quite a stretch. If you feel First Strike is the overpowered factor here, you're more than welcome to argue for a First Strike nerf.
Which is irrelevant to this discussion. The fact that you don't have means, or funds, to gear up to desired levels suitable for PvP has nothing to do with the game's balance, nor should it be even a factor. The complaints and frustrations surrounding this game's greedy and abusive atttitude towards its players is a sentiment we all share with, but has no place in a PvP balance discussion.
Yep. "Scrubs have no idea how high the mountain goes"
I'll say it this nicely, one more time.
When you're at that low level of PvP gameplay, you simply don't have any idea just what is 'likely' and what's 'not likely', as in proficient TRs can load up 1-min cooldown SigDiv for 100% AP from the start of the game, start off with First Strike to literally start the first strike of the fight with a SE, and then change it to some other class feature during combat within 3~4 seconds, switch back to First Strike and hit a SE again, reset 8-second out of combat timer, activate SigDiv again and hit with SE again.
I don't know what your guild is or who your 'team's best TR' is, and I mean disrespect for none of them, but I must comment the levels of gameplay people can reach when it comes to the top-end PvP, is much, much, much more astounding than you can imagine.
Your argument would have been actually better, if it was directed towards how the best, highest level of PvP isn't always representative of the entire PvP scene, as the average level players and they matches they play are outnumber the "best" by far. Instead, you went on to try and discredit people who know what they're talking about, and who are regularly playing and experiencing levels of combat you have no idea about.
That's a mistake, friend.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
1. Sorry, but it's simple math. This has nothing to do with my 'low level of PvP gameplay' -- three top tier TRs (as in BiS, much like the one who tried it with PvE gear) in my TeamSpeak said it's simply not possible as well. The rogue who did the PvE gear test for me is sitting at near-perfect BiS, with maxed Rank 11's across the board.
2. No MI TR with sense in their head uses First Strike. I've confirmed this (I've never used it) with far more experienced TR players. There are way better Class Features to use, that aren't as incredibly narrow in their purpose.
Your scenario is also utterly ridiculous, because SHOCKING EXECUTION CAN MISS THREE QUARTERS OF THE CLASSES -- as has been noted by people who want it nerfed in this very topic! Who in their right mind would ever spec their rogue for that sort of thing alone? Do you even read this nonsense before you post it?
3. The TR who tested this for me is on page 13 of the *overall* standings. Not the current preseason. Our guild's top TR is on page 18 of the same overall standings. They obviously have better gear and more experience than most.
So save your 'appeal to authority' fallacies for people who care. I've provided more than enough evidence to substantiate my claims from rogues who are top tier in every fashion, and none of you have done the same.
You don't know what you're talking about in reality, nor does pando83.
Like I said before, this topic's done. Shocking Execution is definitely not consistently 'doing the majority of someone's HP' in damage. Let's talk about fixing the real broken stuff in PvP, before anyone complains about nerfing the TR again.
45k damage is not the 'majority' of any serious PvPer's hit points.
It is at best half, and I noted that other classes are doing equivalent amounts of damage without piercing. And for a GWF (especially with Determination active), half of their HP is even unlikely.
(Edit: The Warlock might have a case here, but the Warlock has more issues in PvP than a single attack from a TR -- and no rogue would be speccing for killing Warlocks alone).
Please read the above until you've properly comprehended why this topic was completely unnecessary.
Are we gonna really play this game? "Quote someone-else-whom-I-refuse-to-name's authority as if it can hold any meaningful weight as objective evidence"? How about if I say many of the people posting here probably trumps whomever those "three top tier players" are by a far stretch of the word "high-end PvP"? Some of the guys posting here are already members of some of the most renowned and prestigious PvP guilds that have been long recognized, respected, as well as been antagonized and hated, by members of the PvP community.
Are you sure you want to pit your guild and your three players credit on the line against these people? Is this what a PvP discussion is supposed to be?
That's a pish-poor attitude and a weasly cop-out, friend. Stop it.
You obviously have no idea how fast and often top players switch powers smack in the middle of combat, especially easy to do with TRs since stealth allows a quick access to powers menu safely. Don't think that you or your friends don't, or can't, do it, means others are the same. Don't make me repeat the phrase; "scrubs have no idea how high the mountain is"
Want me to show you my 'overall' standings on page 7 during mod5 days? Since each page shows 20 people IIRC, does me having been 140 ranks higher than any of your 'friends' have been make me more credible or an absolute authority on what is right or wrong?
You didn't provide any evidence. All you've provided is your word on how you have a pish-poor, incomplete and low-performing TR build that hits less than 20k with a crit with Shocking Execution... and then when confronted by people with infinitely better experience than you, started quoting unknown people and tried to con the audience by pretending as if their status somehow reinforces your logic.
I wouldn't care if your friend was the president of the United States itself, when plain wrong is wrong. Or, I think I might actually dare you to bring them forth, and tell your friends to come here and make those statements themselves, because at this point your credibility is just dropping and dropping down the drain into god knows where.
So far, what the people in this thread have seen is a 2k IL scrub with supposedly really, really futzed-up stats that hit less than 20k on SE crits, even against a combat dummy that's got no resistance, coming in the midst of people playing at much higher level of gameplay than oneself, claims all of them are wrong, and when confronted and questioned by others started quoting some mysterious, unknown person that's supposed to be on page 13 of the (currently bugged) leaderboards, as if an authority figure that is undisclosed has any sort of meaning.
...and then, as sudden as he appeared, declares he won the debate, and the issue is over.
...
I can certainly see why the schooling system is failing in the west, yes. Maybe the board should consider reinstating philosophy and basic logics into their regular curriculum again.
I'll tell you what, since you declared yourself right, and the winner of this discussion, I suggest you scram and go tell everyone how SE hits for only 20k on combat dummies. Yes, you're the winner. You trumped some of the best CW players, or very talented GWF players, or other class players in this thread, and you sure showed us what a real TR is supposed to be. With a loud round of applause, I'll escort your way out.
Please don't ever come show your face to us losers and liars, please. We're not worthy of your presence.
Shoo.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Does that easy easy-kill TR love make you really blind or are you kidding with me? You are complaining about how your at-will's last hit can be dodged and I said how our best damage skill is same.
As for SE you still can't comprehend the fact that "WE CAN'T AVOID NO MATTER WHAT". You are saying first strike can only be used once in a fight? After first SE, opponent will already have like 15-20k dmg left and you don't need first strike for 2nd SE but I will be real kind, ok here I will give you a tip which will be really useful for you in your next fights, GO STEALTH AND WAIT FIRST STRIKE TO BE ACTIVATED BEFORE USING SE 2ND TIME. Don't tell anyone else, it's kind of a secret.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
1. I can get proof that SE is a skill that regularly deals 45k with crits and a Pure Vorpal in-slot. 45k is at best, half of someone's HP -- I'm at a 2k IL, and I still have 90,000 HP. Even a 'fragile' class like a Control Wizard has roughly 100k. This is not a 'majority' -- not by any sense of the word. Let's review what the word 'majority' means:
"The number larger than half the total." (dictionary.com).
So by the definition of the word, this is not a 'majority' of your HP. And it's certainly not the 'majority' of how much HP a Great Weapon Fighter should have, especially with Determination active.
You want screenshots, I'll provide screenshots. You get me some proof that Shocking Execution is dealing the 'majority' of someone's HP in one hit without a Wheel involved, or speccing specifically for single hits (as with First Strike). Then I'm more than willing to take you seriously. Until you do, your claims will be taken with a grain of salt. A few special circumstances are NOT grounds for nerfing a skill or claiming it is overpowered; they are, at best, niche scenarios.
2. No, I'm not planning to identify my friends so that you can annoy them. I will get screenshots from them if they become necessary, but who my friends or guild are is frankly none of your business whatsoever. It's easy enough for you folks to boot up your own TRs (which I don't imagine you have) and test Shocking Execution for yourself.
I want to reiterate that it does NOT do 85k damage without special circumstances involved. It barely did 60k with 20,000+ Power from PvE gear. Let me go ahead and keep hammering that into you, until it's finally understood.
3. Kweassa said, "Want me to show you my 'overall' standings on page 7 during mod5 days?" No thank you, because that's precisely 100% irrelevant to Mod 6 in every way, shape and form.
As far as you endlessly slagging me for being a new player, that's fine. I wouldn't expect anything less from someone who has nothing to bring to the table, other than attacking the messenger instead of the message.
Let me make myself perfectly clear on this topic.
YOU are the ones making the claim that the skill does this kind of damage; the burden of proof is on YOU to prove these claims, not me. That I bothered to ask around about Shocking and have it tested among my friends and guild members is already more than any of you have done, before you started making baseless assertions about the amount of damage it supposedly does.
If it does not do the wild amounts of damage you claim, the piercing makes no realistic difference and only the lack of dodging on one class (the Warlock) is an issue worth talking about.
As it is, new players can do next to nothing to players who are higher geared -- and we are frequently match-made with you, with your Transcendent Negations and other ridiculous <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Taking piercing away from everything serves to further empower you and screw us into complete irrelevance. I have never seen a game more stacked against new players than Neverwinter.
You want to make PvP a better place for everyone, and not just yourselves? Start clamouring for a nerf to Negation, for starters. You won't do that, because everything you want is selfish in origin.
I'm also not a 'he', Kweassa. And your school system is absolutely failing more than that of the United States, if you claim an understanding of logic and philosophy when you don't understand how the burden of proof works.
Didn't you say the discussion is over? You already declared you're right, and said its end of story.
Why are you still here? Why linger around a discussion you've already proven yourself to be right?
Let us 'liars' talk peacefully amongst ourselves, please. Off you go, shoo.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I didn't just claim it, I can prove it. Like I said above, the burden of proof is on each of you; you folks made the claims. I've stated that people are lying about the basic damage it does, because I am certain I can back it up. Isn't it funny how that works? Making claims that someone can back up, what a novel concept! It's almost... logical.
...and no, you don't get to be condescending when you are this much of a self-righteous tool. Until you can prove the claims about its damage, you can have a seat and be silent yourself. The grown-ups are talking, and you've proven yourself more of a child when you sat around personally attacking me instead of my message. Get stuffed, Kweassa.
And that's exactly what we are talking about: se being undodgeable by SW and gwf.
About damage: se should respect tenacity cause all the powers in game except TR piercing respect it. It's supposed, like healing depression, to affect every class.
We stated one thing, you claimed that it's false cause your friends and you can hit 45k at best. It's not a matter of 'proof'.
Also, if you say someone is telling you lies, it's you who must support the claim.
Btw, i'm pretty sure that one of the above guys can provide proofs.
Only things, out of dodges, that can lower SE damage, are CW shield on tab and fully stacked negation, if i'm not mistaken.
However, just to make it clear, damage apart you say you have the right to be able to deal 45k damage for free through SW shift and gwf shift and unstoppable (it pierces through both). Just closing your eyes and pressing a button. Not willing to give a chance to dodge to the enemy. Also you want piercing damage fully ignoring the defensive part of someone' s build and giving you damage for free. Here too, just pressing one button with no timing, no aiming, no chance to fail the hit or have to deal with builds/stata (bothfor you and yyour enemy).
Now my question is: why you play an action-oriented mmorpg then? To press a button no matter when/ how, and see things appen?
I think that there are a lot of games where you can have easy wins and skills don't matter. Action mmorpgs are not supposed to be like that. Are supposed to be made of aiming, timing, dodging.
If you want easy stuff made of just pressing one button, i don't know, you may want to try some single player game at easy level and with godmode activated.
This game is supposed to be about action and being proactive until devs say otherwise.
It's been reported time ago.
Sure strike is acting weird and i think it's not wai. Should be fixed.
In pvp i see 20k-30k SS.
Need a fix but you don't really read complaints cause it's mixed with other damage, requires gwf to have full stacks, is mitigated further by tenacity/negation and can be dodged. So when the gwf is at full stacks, players may just assume he will vaporize their hp on touch and do not check the source, or plain dodge it/mitigate.
So in game you just add negation stacks, base dr, tenacity and dodges that rarely make the 3rd and 4th buffed hits connect, and players are more concerned about ibs.
That damage imho might be coming from vorpal/weapon enchant+ feats +full damage stacks+artifact weapon SS boost. Devs should take a look into it.
Just curiosity, Were you using vorpal or fey?
Are we sure it's not some sort of a ninja-buff? Because I've noticed it (although in my interrim development state it's a way lot weaker than the numbers above) as well, and for some reason I thought, "Oh cool, so they made the last, big downwards swing sort of a semi-encounterish power..." and have actually thought about developing some tactics around it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
That's not legitimate grounds for a nerfing. The TR's damage abilities have been drying up for a while now as it is, and you want to nerf the final one that does any damage so that your defenses can finish making the class irrelevant. I'd be glad to, when you prove that it does 85k damage on a regular basis. You made that claim first, remember? They'd have done it already. I'm telling you that with 20,000+ Power from PvE gear, it wasn't doing 85k (without also slotting First Strike). If you require a screenshot to solidify this reality for you, I can get you one.
Some of the above guys also claimed that rogues are switching back and forth between First Strike in PvP, not to mention that they likely haven't played a TR much in Mod 6 (and certainly not since the Shadowy nerf). I think their opinions on the matter -- and they are opinions, not facts -- can be safely disregarded. The latter of which is easily the most common armour enchantment in the game, at the moment. It's so common that you'd think people were handing Negation enchantments out like candy. You also seem to be assuming that said GWF is alone, which is usually far from the truth. Shocking Execution is so often dodged in PvP, that I don't even slot it anymore. A daily that can only hit 2/8 classes (and at best like 25-50% of the time) isn't a very useful daily now, is it? If I could have Hateful Knives on an Infiltrator, I'd GLADLY make that trade. If you PvPed as a TR at all (and at this point, I'm heavily doubting that you do from your cluelessness), you'd see that Shocking is dodged with regularity. Like I said above, I'd gladly trade it for the Whisperknife daily in a heartbeat. Knocking things prone is far more useful than piercing damage that can miss as much as Shocking can. Yeah, I do. Because that's what you'd assume an assassin sort of class would be doing -- damage that ignores defenses. Thanks to whining from your sort of person, we currently have the 'Age of Tank'. Unless you're geared to the gills, you cannot even attempt to hurt some individuals in PvP any longer. New players stand absolutely no chance thanks to poor matchmaking and broken class abilities/Negation enchantments that bounce their damage like raindrops on a tin roof. It's not unusual for me to do constant 0's to DCs and Paladins. What fun, right? This game is anything but action in current PvP. It's usually one of two things: 1) a steamrolling where one team is far more geared than the other or 2) one of those matches where everybody has super defenses, that goes on for around a hour and has few deaths to show for it. I can count the number of close matches I've had in Domination ON ONE HAND, out of several hundred of them.
That's how bad it is. That's the sort of game people like you have made of this.
Neverwinter endlessly screws new players over, and you're busy complaining about rather silly things like this. Why don't you start complaining about the sorts of things that keep new players around in the face of people who are buying millions of AD for low, low prices? More piercing damage I say, rather than less. The L70 PvP in this game is terrible in every sense of the word.
I'd be truly shocked if this game isn't hemorrhaging new players. Much of the Mod 6 content is as monotonous as it gets, and it makes you want to quit the game fast in frustration after hitting 70.
Geez can't you freaking understand? GWF AND SW DON'T HAVE DODGE SKILL.
Here that damage you wanted to see so bad,
*posts something from before the Shadowy nerf*
"Oh my god guys, he was murdering new players in one hit when it was mostly only one guy at a time, with First Strike slotted. Look at how you can see that Control Wizard (or anyone else, really) barely fazing him! Clearly this calls for more nerfs than just the Feat that was doing large pools of damage! I KNOW EVERYTHING BECAUSE I SAW IT ON YOUTUBE, DISREGARD THE TR WHO HAS PLAYED NOTHING BUT THAT CLASS IN MOD 6 FOR A WHILE NOW."
TR in green gear.
You said gwf/SW is not always alone? TR isn't either.
Now that's a green gear TR. Hitting se over 100k.
Now give me proof a bis TR cannot deal 80k at least.
Also:
You keep saying what others claim can be disregarded, but what you say is what only matters. Be less biased as many guys above have 10x the pvp experience of a 2k ilvl TR.
What about considring the fact you are wrong, perhaps.
Also: you know you can slot 2 dailies? So, to explain: you can slot one daily for other classes and se for gwfs and SW. This allows you to have a free nuke on these classes.
Assassin is not supposed to ignore defenses, this is one assumption you make.
You list matchmaking issues which players like me asked to fix since ages.
You list immortal tank issues we didn't request and asked to fix.
You say it's OK for you to have something broken cause there is bad matchmaking (we all deal with that, but don't have undodgeable nuke to compensate) or cause devs made bad gameplay choices that players told them NOT to do when they tested it on preview.
I'm sorry to say this but with your posts you just kinda proved to not have the experience or knowledge to know what's going on.
Also claiming that matchmaking issues is fault of players like me...you serious? If devs would listen to players like me, we would have separate premade and pug queue, ilvl brackets and skill-based gameplay for all classes.
Asking for cheesy broken stuff is not the answer, it's childish.
Negation is broken, asked for a fix in multiple threads and devs didn't answer. But it will get a fix eventually, always been like that since 2 years.
I play a regular 2.6k ilvl gwf, always solo queue, always fight. Yesterday got pit vs saber, 4k+ ilvl gwf, and got to fight a hopeless battle at mid the entire match.
All my hits are dodgeable, can be mitigated, and i'm not asking for free damage to compensate matchmaking fault like you do.
I work my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off and made it to page 18-22 of ncl (supposed to be top 40 for gwfs). Wanna know how?
Was losing a match vs team with 2 tank dcs. Talked to another gwf in my team. Changed strategy. Coordinated to stunlock the dcs and take them down. Won.
Was losing a match vs sabo TR spamming undodgeable se. Changed rotation, sacrificed myself and made my team won.
Other games i was losing and reversed either changing rotation, tactic or both.
One game i was using one rotation on a node vs TR, clearing him cause i consistently outplayed him, then switching to stunlock to face DC on mid, then switch to full damage for CW, and back to TR changing again.
Solo queue is often unfair.
But asking for broken stuff to compensate is what truly ruins the game.
Players who work to achieve a seemingly hopeless win, and use skills, are the ones trying to change the game for the better.
If some players want just to press one button and profit can go play Pac-Man.
Also: NW favors big whales spending money. It's like this in many f2p. You either accept it or change game.
Crying "please let me keep a broken mechanic so i can face somehow a 4k ilvl gwf on my 2k TR", is, again, not the answer.
If you don't like the game, quit it. If you find it unfair on one side, trying to keep it unfair on another side to profit from it will only make things worst.
And that attitude is exactly what made the game what it is today.
I'm done mate, i recommend you don't waste time either. They are either blind or pretending, either way there is no point to talk. I gave the proof they asked and once again told our argument which we have no way to avoid that stupid damage. They just wanna be able to kill people with double item level as they do with ease.
Read the above post, about how the video is before Shadowy got nerfed. That rogue has also got First Strike perma-slotted, despite that it's practically useless in any fight where the teams are remotely even. He's in a top tier PvP guild from what I can tell, meaning that his team was likely steamrolling the new player-looking opposition.
I know what I'm talking about, far more than you think I do. As a new player, I have played nothing BUT the Trickster Rogue, including before and after the Shadowy nerf (and including the Whisperknife paragon, of which I was easily the best Whisperknife player in the first wave of the current preseason in the 60 tier). I've also had some of the top players of said class to learn from and observe, and tried many different spec variations of said class in Mod 6.
Do those other people have more PvP experience overall than I do? Of course, and I'm not debating that. Do I have more experience with the TR in Mod 6 than they do? I can virtually guarantee it. I've played hundreds of hours of just that class and no others. Shocking isn't as useful as you think, because GWFs and SWs aren't played all that often.
They don't tank well, and the other classes -- far beyond the TR alone -- will tear GWFs and SWs that aren't top geared or highly skilled limb from limb. Notice how there's only ONE Warlock on the first two pages of the preseason, and all of five Great Weapon Fighters? That's six out of forty top tier players, playing those classes.
Look at the fifteen or so Control Wizards (almost half of the first two pages!). Now you know why.
Just the type of talk that'll make new players stay with the game. Keep up the good work, Pando!
It's stated by the guy who posted the video. Enchants can be switched.
Even so, green or not, shows higher damage.
Also, as i stated, it's the unavoidable unmitigated part that we are discussing.
So it's not me who must make some sense, it's the guys saying that a undodgeable unavoidable nuke on SW/gwf, going right through our shift dr, unstoppable, everything, with piercing damage on TR being the only damage going through tenacity too, is fine.
Saying that since matchmaking is unfair, then you need a power that vs 2 classes lands 100% going full damage no matter what, just pressing a button, that is what does not make sense.
Amazes me the fact we must discuss if a nuke that cannot be dodged/ defended against no matter what, on gwfs and warlocks, is OK.
If so, since matchmaking often puts me vs 3/4k ilvl sabo trs, i want piercing daily too hitting 100% through your dodges, ITC, and dealing full damage no matter what. Like savage advantage or indomitable strenght, of crescendo, hitting you at full power always, no matter what, with me just pressing a button.
I tell you dude, it's not me who must make some sense but the ones defending such godmode mechanics.