Classes are balanced around full set of abilities not single daily. You can't just expect that if one class have abiltiy which does piercing dmg than all others should've it too.
You're just narrow-minded and fail too look at other side of the coin.
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lonewolfmk1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 137Arc User
Let me ask you something. Would you agree ig GWF daily or SW daily has piercing damage that bypass your tab mechanic and 100% hit? Also when you roll or ITC you cannot avoid it. Simple question.
I think you will say NO WAY, right? Because if YES we will get it you gonna cry first here in similar thread about how our daily is broken.
Lol you either didnt read my post or didnt understand it.
just increase the damage on par with the other dailies and make it resistable...
im kinda surprised no one of the complainers proposed this already.
is it fair enough?
So why the F you deffend your stup1d daily that require ZERO skills to land???
We can all agree the damage is a bit much, but is there really a skill to use any daily? Let me see, I don't recall that I have to do such combo when I use crescendo. Yeah buddy, so are so leet when you use that daily, so skilled! (slow clap)
Oh ye. Go try to land GWF's Crescendo on TR. lol. maybe you get lucky 1 from 50? And 70% damage will be mitigated/deflected. My guess you never played GWF)))
About SE. Leave the damage just remove piercing. Give GWF/SW something to dodge it.
Lol please don't talk like I play one class. I have a gwf and gf and use crescendo. Please stop talking nonsense, I bet you only play gwf. Perhaps you missed my post on what classes I play.
BTW, get a TR to 70 and spam SE. You still have to wait and land it correctly to get massive damage.
just increase the damage on par with the other dailies and make it resistable...
im kinda surprised no one of the complainers proposed this already.
is it fair enough?
I'm pretty sure someone already posted this above.
@seventh: it's not true. It fails sometimes. But vs GWF/SW, Rogues don't need to time it, not one bit. You see them popping the DC sigil, wait till it's up, press.
I get hit a load of times during sprint, unstoppable, even got a TR shooting SE when i was flying in the air with avalanche. He was a newbie but probably, seeing he could just press and hit through unstoppable/ sprint/ anything, he thought it would pierce avalanche as well.
TRs specifically target GWFs/SWs and SE them in any moment: full health, half health, low health, sprinting, unstoppable, shadow slip, doesn't matter. They fire it.
It RARELY fails due to such bad timing that they manage to even shoot it when the enemy is almsot out of range, or randomly fails when enemy is bunnyhopping. Fails means it deals small damage.
But it's a bug. 99% of the times, vs GWF/SW, it's a 100% big hit, and TRs don't time anything. They shoot it ASAP.
Crescendo allows the enemy to activate powers in between the multihit stun and the big hit. When a GWF gets hit by crescendo, he can go unstoppable just before the final blow hits him.
You can also go ITC.
lonewolfmk1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 137Arc User
edited July 2015
Crescendo allows the enemy to activate powers in between the multihit stun and the big hit. When a GWF gets hit by crescendo, he can go unstoppable just before the final blow hits him.
You can also go ITC.
I am not defending the damage the SE does, as posted before i think something needs to be done about that. But comparing it with crescendo in terms of how easy it is to land, crescendo wins in my eyes.
Firstly, with SE you get a warning soundeffect. If you are not cc, this allows you to dodge or block, which most classes can do one way or another. You or one of your buddies can also cc or even kill (ok unlikely but possible) the TR before he finishes the attack, repel also works. Also you are free to move and use your powers over the whole animation time. The TR has to be close to use the attack or risk that you run out of reach. He also has to use it while in stealth, and managing to cc the target and using the small time window it is cc to get back into stealth and attack with SE is actually not that easy against a skilled player. Of course GWFs and SWs are screwed since the TR dosnt really need to cc them.
To land a crescendo is easier. It works from a bit of a distance with no warning, so you basically can not dodge it if the GF/GWF time it right (my main is a swordmaster GF). And yes even TRs are not that hard to catch, but you have to wait for the point when itc is on cooldown. Once cought some opponents can get away (unstoppable or itc or if they use Oghma, like my GF does) but the majority stays caught. Personally i dont even use Crescendo because of the damage (as my GF is build for support/def) but because of the long cc effect which allows my teammates to further cc and destroy the target.
So why the F you deffend your stup1d daily that require ZERO skills to land???
We can all agree the damage is a bit much, but is there really a skill to use any daily? Let me see, I don't recall that I have to do such combo when I use crescendo. Yeah buddy, so are so leet when you use that daily, so skilled! (slow clap)
Oh ye. Go try to land GWF's Crescendo on TR. lol. maybe you get lucky 1 from 50? And 70% damage will be mitigated/deflected. My guess you never played GWF)))
About SE. Leave the damage just remove piercing. Give GWF/SW something to dodge it.
Lol please don't talk like I play one class. I have a gwf and gf and use crescendo. Please stop talking nonsense, I bet you only play gwf. Perhaps you missed my post on what classes I play.
BTW, get a TR to 70 and spam SE and if you think it hits hard everytime you are stupid. You still have to wait and land it correctly to get massive damage.
Cool story. lol GWF's Crescendo yeasier to land then SE. You pro)
I have a TR.
I didn't say SE always hit hard as hell but sometimes 124k SE enough. Don't it?
Your GF got massive damage boost. Be happy to stun lock and rotate.
If you didn't realise yet the thread is about SE piercing damage. I see you wanna keep it on your TR caz without it you screwed. L2p boy with no "I win button" like others.
Funny potato gwf, perhaps you need to l2r as well. Because I said I don't care for it to get removed, just give something back. But for you the definition of giving something back is to give the stealth reveal back. You are indeed all about balances. Also, the reason why a lot of TRs hesitate to remove it at this moment is because there are far worse that are broken such as the immortals that are still plauging the PVP scene. When those are fixed, no one will argue with you about removing such damage.
Oh btw, since you claim you have a TR, how far have you gone on the board on that guy. Please insert toon name so we can check on board.
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Please keep this discussion civil or we will be forced to close it. Thank you.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
In pure technical terms, Crescendo actually is easier to land than SE.
It's just simple mechanics -- from the receiving end Crescendo feels almost immediate activation, whereas SE has clear audible/visible queues that happen prior to actual effect. The fact that powers like both Crescendo and Flourish have any number of "weird glitching" that can happen also makes it quite annoying for the receiving end to evade/dodge cleanly.
In all honesty I've dodged plenty of SE attempts after the power already hads activated, but the only Crescendos I've ever dodged were those in total anticipation. Never after the activation because when it does activate it just lands. In other words, you can confirm an incoming SE and evade it, but Crescendo needs up-front guesswork to dodge away from.
...
You guys don't have to go through all that sheetstorm about nothing, because Crescendo being easier to land has no relevance in this discussion whatsoever anyway. Whether you think SE is easier to land or not, none of it matters.
The only thing matters is SE is an extreme form of piercing damage, and there are classes that cannot dodge it, which enforces an inevitable result in a PvP fight -- which is another way of saying "certain things are predestined" if play those classes. This is simply BULLSHEET.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
You guys' gone outside the discussion.
The reason for this post and the concern is about how unfair SE or Piercing Damage is against specifically GWF/SW as those two classes has no dodge mechanic to avoid this big daily hit. There is no point discussing SE against other classes, how Cressendo hits or anything else, stick to the topic please.
seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
The only reason why I mentioned it was because our dear pimpalotofhoes keeps crying 1-button no skill when my point was every daily is 1-button no skill to activate.
Back on topic, yes, again if you want to address the damage, address the rest of the problems as well and don't just plain nerf without positive returns to the class. #endpoint
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
i feel TR should be a melee combat specialist and excel with both assassination as well as close combats. I think they should retain a decent amount of burst dmg that respects tenancity amd defense and increase overall melee at-will and encounters damage. This way they would be hiding in and out from stealth to effectively deal damage and would still be able to deal decent damage once outside stealth. This way TRs wont have to relay on one big daily and then just hide in the shadow due to siginificant amount of risks they have to take that doesnt justify with the damage they could output.
The only reason why I mentioned it was because our dear pimpalotofhoes keeps crying 1-button no skill when my point was every daily is 1-button no skill to activate.
Back on topic, yes, again if you want to address the damage, address the rest of the problems as well and don't just plain nerf without positive returns to the class. #endpoint
Just for asking, what would you give to TR class in "exchange" of S.E. respecting all defenses?
increased damage on that daily.
than revert back the SO change, make it being affected by damage multiplier but make it also full physical damage (not piercing).
then as whole compensation for the damage lost and as qol fix: stealth no longer drains or stops refilling upon taking damage out of stealth, it slowly refills no matter what.
The reason for this post and the concern is about how unfair SE or Piercing Damage is against specifically GWF/SW as those two classes has no dodge mechanic to avoid this big daily hit. There is no point discussing SE against other classes, how Cressendo hits or anything else, stick to the topic please.
Doesnt Steel Defense give 6s dmg immunity at rank 4? counter daily with your daily or maybe try AoS daily. I dont think you take dmg while flying in the air.
the scoundrel path which is the one with the greatest vulnerability is the one with kinda low cc and lowest dps between all classes and no way to close the gap consistenly. A pala does more damage just standing. In the end a little more cc, greater damage bonus and a feat (like t4-t5) about cooldown reduction on skills like itc and deft strike would make this specific tree perfect.
an executioner does damage and would probably be more or less balanced with sod fixed to how its supposed to work.
saboteur should not have piercing damage, should not have damage feats and should be able to dish out damage by greater cooldown reduction implemented in the tree. Feat of gloaming cut removed.
no tree is actually doing what is supposed to do.
i was a dedicated tr player long time ago (back in mod 1-2) and in this meta the changes i wrote right now would make me play the class again.
this being said. the starting points for a well rounded balance would be:
1) no 100% crit in stealth but a buff that double your current critical chance. Halved stealth depletion.
2) no procs/piercing damage in saboteur tree.
3) stealth no longer drains or stops refilling upon taking damage out of stealth, it slowly refills no matter what.
4) shocking damage being resistable
5) reworked first strike in something else. Lower damage, more consistent maybe
then apply the changes i wrote above and i think most tr would be happy.
in response to clyonko1
1 - S.O. will never deal that amount of damage again once affected by dr and deflect.
2 - which class isnt able to spam at wills? and however in "how i would solve the problem once for all" i totally removed procs. Will hit for its standart 800-2000 hp which is ok compared to 15k-20k sure strike i think
Comments
You're just narrow-minded and fail too look at other side of the coin.
Lol you either didnt read my post or didnt understand it.
Edited out moderated part of quote.
im kinda surprised no one of the complainers proposed this already.
is it fair enough?
Lol please don't talk like I play one class. I have a gwf and gf and use crescendo. Please stop talking nonsense, I bet you only play gwf. Perhaps you missed my post on what classes I play.
BTW, get a TR to 70 and spam SE. You still have to wait and land it correctly to get massive damage.
I'm pretty sure someone already posted this above.
@seventh: it's not true. It fails sometimes. But vs GWF/SW, Rogues don't need to time it, not one bit. You see them popping the DC sigil, wait till it's up, press.
I get hit a load of times during sprint, unstoppable, even got a TR shooting SE when i was flying in the air with avalanche. He was a newbie but probably, seeing he could just press and hit through unstoppable/ sprint/ anything, he thought it would pierce avalanche as well.
TRs specifically target GWFs/SWs and SE them in any moment: full health, half health, low health, sprinting, unstoppable, shadow slip, doesn't matter. They fire it.
It RARELY fails due to such bad timing that they manage to even shoot it when the enemy is almsot out of range, or randomly fails when enemy is bunnyhopping. Fails means it deals small damage.
But it's a bug. 99% of the times, vs GWF/SW, it's a 100% big hit, and TRs don't time anything. They shoot it ASAP.
Crescendo allows the enemy to activate powers in between the multihit stun and the big hit. When a GWF gets hit by crescendo, he can go unstoppable just before the final blow hits him.
You can also go ITC.
I am not defending the damage the SE does, as posted before i think something needs to be done about that. But comparing it with crescendo in terms of how easy it is to land, crescendo wins in my eyes.
Firstly, with SE you get a warning soundeffect. If you are not cc, this allows you to dodge or block, which most classes can do one way or another. You or one of your buddies can also cc or even kill (ok unlikely but possible) the TR before he finishes the attack, repel also works. Also you are free to move and use your powers over the whole animation time. The TR has to be close to use the attack or risk that you run out of reach. He also has to use it while in stealth, and managing to cc the target and using the small time window it is cc to get back into stealth and attack with SE is actually not that easy against a skilled player. Of course GWFs and SWs are screwed since the TR dosnt really need to cc them.
To land a crescendo is easier. It works from a bit of a distance with no warning, so you basically can not dodge it if the GF/GWF time it right (my main is a swordmaster GF). And yes even TRs are not that hard to catch, but you have to wait for the point when itc is on cooldown. Once cought some opponents can get away (unstoppable or itc or if they use Oghma, like my GF does) but the majority stays caught. Personally i dont even use Crescendo because of the damage (as my GF is build for support/def) but because of the long cc effect which allows my teammates to further cc and destroy the target.
Funny potato gwf, perhaps you need to l2r as well. Because I said I don't care for it to get removed, just give something back. But for you the definition of giving something back is to give the stealth reveal back. You are indeed all about balances. Also, the reason why a lot of TRs hesitate to remove it at this moment is because there are far worse that are broken such as the immortals that are still plauging the PVP scene. When those are fixed, no one will argue with you about removing such damage.
Oh btw, since you claim you have a TR, how far have you gone on the board on that guy. Please insert toon name so we can check on board.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
It's just simple mechanics -- from the receiving end Crescendo feels almost immediate activation, whereas SE has clear audible/visible queues that happen prior to actual effect. The fact that powers like both Crescendo and Flourish have any number of "weird glitching" that can happen also makes it quite annoying for the receiving end to evade/dodge cleanly.
In all honesty I've dodged plenty of SE attempts after the power already hads activated, but the only Crescendos I've ever dodged were those in total anticipation. Never after the activation because when it does activate it just lands. In other words, you can confirm an incoming SE and evade it, but Crescendo needs up-front guesswork to dodge away from.
...
You guys don't have to go through all that sheetstorm about nothing, because Crescendo being easier to land has no relevance in this discussion whatsoever anyway. Whether you think SE is easier to land or not, none of it matters.
The only thing matters is SE is an extreme form of piercing damage, and there are classes that cannot dodge it, which enforces an inevitable result in a PvP fight -- which is another way of saying "certain things are predestined" if play those classes. This is simply BULLSHEET.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The reason for this post and the concern is about how unfair SE or Piercing Damage is against specifically GWF/SW as those two classes has no dodge mechanic to avoid this big daily hit. There is no point discussing SE against other classes, how Cressendo hits or anything else, stick to the topic please.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Back on topic, yes, again if you want to address the damage, address the rest of the problems as well and don't just plain nerf without positive returns to the class. #endpoint
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
increased damage on that daily.
than revert back the SO change, make it being affected by damage multiplier but make it also full physical damage (not piercing).
then as whole compensation for the damage lost and as qol fix: stealth no longer drains or stops refilling upon taking damage out of stealth, it slowly refills no matter what.
Doesnt Steel Defense give 6s dmg immunity at rank 4? counter daily with your daily or maybe try AoS daily. I dont think you take dmg while flying in the air.
the scoundrel path which is the one with the greatest vulnerability is the one with kinda low cc and lowest dps between all classes and no way to close the gap consistenly. A pala does more damage just standing. In the end a little more cc, greater damage bonus and a feat (like t4-t5) about cooldown reduction on skills like itc and deft strike would make this specific tree perfect.
an executioner does damage and would probably be more or less balanced with sod fixed to how its supposed to work.
saboteur should not have piercing damage, should not have damage feats and should be able to dish out damage by greater cooldown reduction implemented in the tree. Feat of gloaming cut removed.
no tree is actually doing what is supposed to do.
i was a dedicated tr player long time ago (back in mod 1-2) and in this meta the changes i wrote right now would make me play the class again.
this being said. the starting points for a well rounded balance would be:
1) no 100% crit in stealth but a buff that double your current critical chance. Halved stealth depletion.
2) no procs/piercing damage in saboteur tree.
3) stealth no longer drains or stops refilling upon taking damage out of stealth, it slowly refills no matter what.
4) shocking damage being resistable
5) reworked first strike in something else. Lower damage, more consistent maybe
then apply the changes i wrote above and i think most tr would be happy.
in response to clyonko1
1 - S.O. will never deal that amount of damage again once affected by dr and deflect.
2 - which class isnt able to spam at wills? and however in "how i would solve the problem once for all" i totally removed procs. Will hit for its standart 800-2000 hp which is ok compared to 15k-20k sure strike i think