i just see the thing for a higher point of view. not that im saying im better than you guys, with higher im mean just higher.
you see the high damage from shocking, which without first strike is 50-55k.. sometimes 60k but thats it.
meanwhile they play with a full defensive encounter ITC (and you says its their choice.. kk i understand you have a point)
with a 0 damage shadow strike ( and this is not their choice, no way. they have to slot it or die without even reaching the node).
their damaging encounters have 20 seconds cooldown with the exception of 12 seconds dazing strike. Their hardest hitting at will is duelist flurry which needs major skill and still hit for less that 1 boosted sure strike.
thats the higher point i was talking about.
no class share that.
do you ever seen a gwf with 8k recovery?
you are going to say "thats for permastealth bla bla bla" no. you can do it without recovery with no prob. Slot tactics and still have a greater number of dailies than a 8k recovery tr.
they are just forced.
so yes, shocking execution being totally piercing is just unfair vs gwf and sw but just make it not piercing would cause shoking execution to be the lowest hitting daily in game.
we can continue to argue but my point as a hr but i know its shared by many of my friends is:
1) without shocking they are hardly a threat today.
2) with stealth reveal they would be the worst class by far.
3) they have a forced and much predictable gameplay.
Interesting to hear it from an HRs perspective. You are indeed right, those are the 3 encounters I slot. I barely use smokebomb but that is the other alternative most use instead of ITC. I can't count the amount of times I respec'd and I bet if the people I encounter on PVP are running ACT, they would notice how my feats always change. So my main source of damage is really DF.
Would be nice to have an alternative source of DPS. Like a true burst damage. While playing my GF, I am amazed how hard Anvil hits, coupled with ITF, bullcharge and anvil. Man oh man, you wish you didn't go toe to toe with a GF unless you are pally or tank cw with negation. It's funny how many TRs I killed using that combo.
i just see the thing for a higher point of view. not that im saying im better than you guys, with higher im mean just higher.
you see the high damage from shocking, which without first strike is 50-55k.. sometimes 60k but thats it.
meanwhile they play with a full defensive encounter ITC (and you says its their choice.. kk i understand you have a point)
with a 0 damage shadow strike ( and this is not their choice, no way. they have to slot it or die without even reaching the node).
their damaging encounters have 20 seconds cooldown with the exception of 12 seconds dazing strike. Their hardest hitting at will is duelist flurry which needs major skill and still hit for less that 1 boosted sure strike.
thats the higher point i was talking about.
no class share that.
do you ever seen a gwf with 8k recovery?
you are going to say "thats for permastealth bla bla bla" no. you can do it without recovery with no prob. Slot tactics and still have a greater number of dailies than a 8k recovery tr.
they are just forced.
so yes, shocking execution being totally piercing is just unfair vs gwf and sw but just make it not piercing would cause shoking execution to be the lowest hitting daily in game.
we can continue to argue but my point as a hr but i know its shared by many of my friends is:
1) without shocking they are hardly a threat today.
2) with stealth reveal they would be the worst class by far.
3) they have a forced and much predictable gameplay.
The point of the thread was not the damage itself. Read the OP. It's the mechanic.
The issue is the fact that GWFs/ SWs cannot dodge it. Talking seriously, the dodge mechanic of said classes is 100% USELESS on SE. You can sprint or be unstoppable, it doesn't matter. The TR just hit a button and profit.
This is an issue and must change. A TR hitting SE while a SW is shifting or while a GWF is sprinting, or in unstoppable, or both, should get punished and see his daily damage reduced a lot.
Right now, it's not happening. The TR now can close his eyes, roll his face on the keyboard and accidentally press the button, hit the GWF who is sprinting and in unstoppable big and red, and he still deals 100% damage.
Are we really arguing if such a dumb and skill-less mechanic should change?
BTW, can we bring back the discussion to something productive?
We know the issue. Suggestions are welcome so we can try to give real feedback to the devs.
Nobody wants another useless nerf. Just...balance.
okok....lets finished this...
remove SE pircing...done...
remove crescendo stun...done...
all class will be happy
you forgot steath, paladin tankiness, cw cc, tankiness, damage and sustain, dc healing, gf burst and hr permacc
ps. i already wrote how to make SE fair and balanced while keeping the piercing part that is needed to deal with tanks, removing piercing from existing SE wont change much, it will make it even more unfair(since damage should be buffed about 2x to compensate, i think i shouldnt tell you what that would mean for low end pvp and/or squishies
You mist the point. TR on average is already doing worse than any other class, hence over half of them are leading on the lossing page.
It's like saying that GWF is beyond broken because on the first few pages of Leaderboard there's few which have insane K/D/A and winning ratio. There's also warlock on page 2 with great stats, so the class can obviously be rewarding for the few skilled ones and rest just have to l2p.
When TR get's reliable CC and burst like GF can do, people wont mind getting rid of current SE.
I miss the point, or you being delusional? TRs never stepped down from the 'pvp supremacy" since mod5.
The TR's already have a reliable CC, and they already have damage. This "reliable burst" you seem to be infatuated with, encounter attacks that swipe off more than half HP in one shot, that's not "reliable." That's what you call broken.
Refer to the part where I've countlessly mentioned "spoiled players taken broken stuff for granted" again. Also refer to some of my other posts where I've pointed out the problems with GWFs or GFs as well.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The whole skill-less TR thing is unfair. ALL classes are pretty much skill-less in PVP atm. HR just spams roots, Pali just spams DP, CW just spams Repel and Ice Knife, GFs just block, DC just does sunburst, seal. GWF, we just use HD and IBS. SW just runs around using Dreadtheft. No skill, just press buttons.
^Yes, IBS is skill-less. Press button = insta hit.
The level of skills required varies, and even a lot, considering different builds, more than classes.
GWF and SW are the most proactive classes right now. HR is also skill-requiring when it comes to dodging/ defending. Attack not so much it's just a root spam fest.
But Sabo/MI builds just spam dodge rolls, spam piercing from at-will ranged, drop ITC, drop smoke bomb, drop piercing SE. Other TRs label that build as skill-less. There must be a reason...
Every mod there is a TR build that outperforms the others. SOD bug PF spammers, Perma-daze scoundrels were all the rage last mod-Same TRs saying Sabo needs nerf. I built my TR as INT perma rogue, but that was mod 4. So I am not gonna change my build just cuz it is victim of the qq of the Mod.
and i support you for doing so. but it doesnt mean no nerf is needed. i think the pally is way more op at the moment than tr though not trying to derail just sharing my opinion.
Every mod there is a TR build that outperforms the others. SOD bug PF spammers, Perma-daze scoundrels were all the rage last mod-Same TRs saying Sabo needs nerf. I built my TR as INT perma rogue, but that was mod 4. So I am not gonna change my build just cuz it is victim of the qq of the Mod.
and i support you for doing so. but it doesnt mean no nerf is needed. i think the pally is way more op at the moment than tr though not trying to derail just sharing my opinion.
Agreed, OP and TR are number one and two worst classes in terms of overpowered, OP leagues beyond TR. Let's compare the classes to be fair;
OP
- (arguably) better healer than a DC *at will heals and a daily that heals target to full
- (arguably) better party tank than a GF
- but its clunky, moves awkward, little damage
- - which doesn't matter
- it can kill you with reflect and Avalanche
TR
- can hide in stealth forever, being unkillable IF he rotates powers well (the OK part)
- can kill you while in hiding (the NOT-OK part)
- but not a real tank, not a lot of self healing, so can still die
- but runs most of the time stealthed, so bleh
DC
- astral shield, good, great, not particularly superb, but a must have
- gift of faith, cast-and-forget healing *it comes close to OP's burst healing
What's the common denominator here? These three are practically unkillable in their own right, but OP way more impossible than the other two.
^ then open the NCL leaderboard and face the reality, cause there's not a single paladin on first page and only 1 DC.
... because the Leaderboard is shockingly relevant to how a single class performs, without any outside factor contributing to a win like, say, teammates, teamwork, domination nodes, class roles and things like that--especially when compared among thousands over thousands of other players.
Every mod there is a TR build that outperforms the others. SOD bug PF spammers, Perma-daze scoundrels were all the rage last mod-Same TRs saying Sabo needs nerf. I built my TR as INT perma rogue, but that was mod 4. So I am not gonna change my build just cuz it is victim of the qq of the Mod.
If you have experience with the pre-mod5, old-school INTrogue perma builds then you already know why people didn't consider them too overpowered back then, as well as the clock-work rotations of BnS and SS all the while facing multiple enemies.
And more than anything you know how much no-brainer, lamer, easy-mode it is to manage the current incarnation of permastealth a la MI/Sabos are.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
1 - Wrong, As even you already know by now, that build of yours back on mod5 was totally skill-less yet you and 2 more TRs kept defending it even while other TRs stated that the Scoundrel tree was OP together Knife's edge or SoD double/triple stack due DoT enchants YET, with your biased data and some stupidity about "being WK", you kept saying that "the tree is fine".
Um.... What do either Knife's Edge (Saboteur) or Shadow of Demise (Executioner) have to do with the Scoundrel tree? May want to recheck what you were trying to convey.
That said, GWF and SW DR from Unstoppable and Shadowslip should not be mitigated. If you look at it from the perspective of dodging gives 100% pure DR, those features should be similar based on the lesser protection that they provide. SE ignoring EVERYTHING is just too much.
No need for stealth reveal.
Basically, what i would do:
- SE should respect tenacity and at least deflect, and DR coming from mechanics like dodge/ unstoppable and the likes, and GWF-SW should have a way to use their dodge mechanic to counter it like with other dailies/ powers. Can buff the damage of SE to hit VERY HARD when hitting a player under 35% HP (pretty much, as much damage as it deals now, but only if the enemy is low in HP). This would punish TRs who just fire SE randomly (right now, vs GWF, they actually do this. Unstoppable dodge...they fire in any case. Got a very nab TR shooting SE while i was in avalanche daily. I mean, i was flying. Still flying...and he shot his daily...), and reward those who first drain the enemy's HP, then tactically fire the daily to execute and get AP refill (intended use of the daily).
- Balance Sabo survivability/ damage. Balance overall survivability/ damage. Pretty much, if a build allows for high survivability, like current Sabo/MI builds, the damage should be tweaked to be a steady slow damage that allows the player to focus at surviving/tricking the enemy while slowly drain his health, to then drop SE on his head. But the damage should come from proactive and dodgeable powers, not from passive at-will spam+piercing damage passive. Which means no piercing damage, buff encounters damage to compensate for the loss of piercing damage. Right? On DPS builds, it should mean that overall damage coming from powers should be high. Dodgeable, but high enough to be on par with a fully stacked GWF. Then again, with the option to drop SE on the enemy's head. SE HP limit could be decreased to 40% and damage buffed, on executioners for example.
Can't go into detailes, but overall, my guess is that TR should rather overall play like this, rather than the way it is now...
If current damage from at-wills+piercing damage is, possibily, enough only cause it's piercing and a non-stop streaming of damage, then the encounters buff should take this into account. The aim is to achieve current damage output, with a more fair mechanic (from encounters and not at-will spam), and a more fair and reasonable SE that would work as a proper execution with buffed damage on low HP enemy, and AP refill.
Survivability can stay the same since Sabo/MI with said mechanics would still kill the enemy, but slower, as it should be...may be with the exception of ITC that could be tweaked a bit.
Can't go into detailes, but overall, my guess is that TR should rather overall play like this, rather than the way it is now...
If current damage from at-wills+piercing damage is, possibily, enough only cause it's piercing and a non-stop streaming of damage, then the encounters buff should take this into account. The aim is to achieve current damage output, with a more fair mechanic (from encounters and not at-will spam), and a more fair and reasonable SE that would work as a proper execution with buffed damage on low HP enemy, and AP refill.
Survivability can stay the same since Sabo/MI with said mechanics would still kill the enemy, but slower, as it should be...may be with the exception of ITC that could be tweaked a bit.
As a TR, and I concur.
Multiple times, some TR players argue that if they lose SE or SO as they are now, then they don't have any damage or any way to fight. This is simply not true. Techinally, what they really mean when they say that is;
"We don't have any damage or any way to fight SAFELY, WITHOUT PUTTING OURSELVES AT RISK
TR players since mod5 are so used to dealing maximal damage with minimal risk, that those who've grown accustomed to this have practically forgotten what it means to manage your risks. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why I am seeing almost an extinction of "middle-grade TRs" in terms of skill.
Perhaps this is my own arrogance speaking, but really, in the mod2~mod4 days, there were a LOT of TR players who weren't as skilled/geared/powerful as the top-dogs, but still knew how to fight close quarters, and still do their jobs by contesting a node.
Nowadays, when I see like 4~5 TRs in my side when starting a GG match, I know for certain things are going to be difficult because regardless of gear level, I KNOW for a fact more than half of those other TRs will be the half-baked MI/Sabo wannabes who knows nothing of how a TR can fight except simply spamming smokebomb, throwing CoS from stealth, and then just walking off the node and running away when that doesn't work. Been a TR for my entire existence in this game when I see stuff like that its just EMBARRASSING.
Not only is it embarrassing, but also useless for the team, in that a TR like that only functions well enough as a support class, nothing but a shuttle for smokebombing and worth little to nothing as an independent stealth class that can troll nodes, lure people, and stall opponents... and when these are the only TRs I'm seeing in domination or GG, I can only say I don't find it very convincing when TR players complain that they need all that SO and SE and whatnot to be able to function as a combatant.
To me, (again, excuse if this is my own, arrogant pride) that simply sounds like nothing but a bunch of fellow TR brothers who've become so lazy and fat-on-their-bottoms by resorting to boring and skill-less tactics that they've no idea just how much potential the TR holds then just repeating a drowsy perma-routine.
There is damage, there are alternatives, there are other options which (although few) talented non-Sabo TRs use every day, sometimes even against BiS level players to have them work. Maybe these TRs aren't the cream of the crop, the best of the best, but still I know a lot of them to be at least leaps and bounds above average in skill, and would probably be much better than even some of the less famous/ranking members of the famous premade guilds.
There are ways. Sabo players just don't know this, because up to this point they've never tried anything else since mod5. Like mentioned, these other ways aren't as one-sided and easy as the mod5~early mod6 MI/Sabo methods. Maybe in those days you can simply stand at a nice spot, throw 4~5 CoS shots and score more than 20k damage just from that alone, but these "alternatives" would require you to take more risks and still do less damage than you were able to. But then, in every meaning of the word, THAT'S WHAT PVP IS
Every move, every attack you take carries risks and dangers. The higher the risk, the higher the dangers, the lower the risk, the safer your tactics, the less reward it must give out. It is only when that becomes true, that the "other guy" also haves options and counters, and the mix-up of mind-games and trading blows that follows as both sides constantly make choices and deal with the consequences, that's what PvP is supposed to be.
Not this worthless krap of spamming ranged attacks overbuffed from broken stuff like SO + LostM set bonus, from totally safety invisibility, until your AP fires up in every 1-min intervals to activate a 1-touch execution against the other guy, without him ever having the opportunity to fight back to land even a single good attack.
That's not PvP. I don't call that PvP. I call that mental mast*rbation.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
Two words for fix. Delete class. Give class re-roll to deleted class that shall not be named. Tired of the cries regardless of what it is. After this power gets nerfed, there will be more gripes, guaranteed.
okok....lets finished this...
remove SE pircing...done...
remove crescendo stun...done...
all class will be happy
Crescendo stun should stay, GWF needs their control skill. They're screwed enough already, they don't deserve another nerf. SE piercing should be enough, two SE's in a row is too much for anyone, especially for GWF's without dodge or block mechanic.
"All ppl complaining about paladins being immortals are undergeared players, who are thinking like young hussar officers - they want to slice the enemy with few hits and then to go for a drink."
okok....lets finished this...
remove SE pircing...done...
remove crescendo stun...done...
all class will be happy
Crescendo stun should stay, GWF needs their control skill. They're screwed enough already, they don't deserve another nerf. SE piercing should be enough, two SE's in a row is too much for anyone, especially for GWF's without dodge or block mechanic.
sorry ,..im only saying just for a trade..because currently this thread is a war between GWFs and TRs
dev will not look into it...TR doesnt want nerfing ofc...but GWF wants it..this debate is endless..
im a TR myself (MI/exe ofc..not ****perma)...SE hard to land for other classes with dodging ability/shielding etc..if 1vs1 ..you can hear the deadly sound,..but easy to SW and GWF actually, most of the time..because they ....j..u..s..t..cant dodge..
really sorry for GWF and SW...actually IMHO GWF and SW need dodge ability, ...
many broken factors than nerfing this actually,..that DEV really need to look into ..like PERMA **** stealth and
**** CC....this is broken..nothing in pvp MMO ive played b4 have perma...UO, DaoC, linage2, GW2...
well back to topic...SE is fine maybe nerf the range..thats all..10' range...nerf perma please.....
Comments
Interesting to hear it from an HRs perspective. You are indeed right, those are the 3 encounters I slot. I barely use smokebomb but that is the other alternative most use instead of ITC. I can't count the amount of times I respec'd and I bet if the people I encounter on PVP are running ACT, they would notice how my feats always change. So my main source of damage is really DF.
Would be nice to have an alternative source of DPS. Like a true burst damage. While playing my GF, I am amazed how hard Anvil hits, coupled with ITF, bullcharge and anvil. Man oh man, you wish you didn't go toe to toe with a GF unless you are pally or tank cw with negation. It's funny how many TRs I killed using that combo.
The point of the thread was not the damage itself. Read the OP. It's the mechanic.
The issue is the fact that GWFs/ SWs cannot dodge it. Talking seriously, the dodge mechanic of said classes is 100% USELESS on SE. You can sprint or be unstoppable, it doesn't matter. The TR just hit a button and profit.
This is an issue and must change. A TR hitting SE while a SW is shifting or while a GWF is sprinting, or in unstoppable, or both, should get punished and see his daily damage reduced a lot.
Right now, it's not happening. The TR now can close his eyes, roll his face on the keyboard and accidentally press the button, hit the GWF who is sprinting and in unstoppable big and red, and he still deals 100% damage.
Are we really arguing if such a dumb and skill-less mechanic should change?
Fix it the way you want. But fix it.
We know the issue. Suggestions are welcome so we can try to give real feedback to the devs.
Nobody wants another useless nerf. Just...balance.
you forgot steath, paladin tankiness, cw cc, tankiness, damage and sustain, dc healing, gf burst and hr permacc
ps. i already wrote how to make SE fair and balanced while keeping the piercing part that is needed to deal with tanks, removing piercing from existing SE wont change much, it will make it even more unfair(since damage should be buffed about 2x to compensate, i think i shouldnt tell you what that would mean for low end pvp and/or squishies
I miss the point, or you being delusional? TRs never stepped down from the 'pvp supremacy" since mod5.
The TR's already have a reliable CC, and they already have damage. This "reliable burst" you seem to be infatuated with, encounter attacks that swipe off more than half HP in one shot, that's not "reliable." That's what you call broken.
Refer to the part where I've countlessly mentioned "spoiled players taken broken stuff for granted" again. Also refer to some of my other posts where I've pointed out the problems with GWFs or GFs as well.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
^Yes, IBS is skill-less. Press button = insta hit.
The level of skills required varies, and even a lot, considering different builds, more than classes.
GWF and SW are the most proactive classes right now. HR is also skill-requiring when it comes to dodging/ defending. Attack not so much it's just a root spam fest.
But Sabo/MI builds just spam dodge rolls, spam piercing from at-will ranged, drop ITC, drop smoke bomb, drop piercing SE. Other TRs label that build as skill-less. There must be a reason...
Agreed, OP and TR are number one and two worst classes in terms of overpowered, OP leagues beyond TR. Let's compare the classes to be fair;
OP
- (arguably) better healer than a DC *at will heals and a daily that heals target to full
- (arguably) better party tank than a GF
- but its clunky, moves awkward, little damage
- - which doesn't matter
- it can kill you with reflect and Avalanche
TR
- can hide in stealth forever, being unkillable IF he rotates powers well (the OK part)
- can kill you while in hiding (the NOT-OK part)
- but not a real tank, not a lot of self healing, so can still die
- but runs most of the time stealthed, so bleh
DC
- astral shield, good, great, not particularly superb, but a must have
- gift of faith, cast-and-forget healing *it comes close to OP's burst healing
What's the common denominator here? These three are practically unkillable in their own right, but OP way more impossible than the other two.
... because the Leaderboard is shockingly relevant to how a single class performs, without any outside factor contributing to a win like, say, teammates, teamwork, domination nodes, class roles and things like that--especially when compared among thousands over thousands of other players.
Yeah...didn't think so.
If you have experience with the pre-mod5, old-school INTrogue perma builds then you already know why people didn't consider them too overpowered back then, as well as the clock-work rotations of BnS and SS all the while facing multiple enemies.
And more than anything you know how much no-brainer, lamer, easy-mode it is to manage the current incarnation of permastealth a la MI/Sabos are.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Um.... What do either Knife's Edge (Saboteur) or Shadow of Demise (Executioner) have to do with the Scoundrel tree? May want to recheck what you were trying to convey.
That said, GWF and SW DR from Unstoppable and Shadowslip should not be mitigated. If you look at it from the perspective of dodging gives 100% pure DR, those features should be similar based on the lesser protection that they provide. SE ignoring EVERYTHING is just too much.
Basically, what i would do:
- SE should respect tenacity and at least deflect, and DR coming from mechanics like dodge/ unstoppable and the likes, and GWF-SW should have a way to use their dodge mechanic to counter it like with other dailies/ powers. Can buff the damage of SE to hit VERY HARD when hitting a player under 35% HP (pretty much, as much damage as it deals now, but only if the enemy is low in HP). This would punish TRs who just fire SE randomly (right now, vs GWF, they actually do this. Unstoppable dodge...they fire in any case. Got a very nab TR shooting SE while i was in avalanche daily. I mean, i was flying. Still flying...and he shot his daily...), and reward those who first drain the enemy's HP, then tactically fire the daily to execute and get AP refill (intended use of the daily).
- Balance Sabo survivability/ damage. Balance overall survivability/ damage. Pretty much, if a build allows for high survivability, like current Sabo/MI builds, the damage should be tweaked to be a steady slow damage that allows the player to focus at surviving/tricking the enemy while slowly drain his health, to then drop SE on his head. But the damage should come from proactive and dodgeable powers, not from passive at-will spam+piercing damage passive. Which means no piercing damage, buff encounters damage to compensate for the loss of piercing damage. Right? On DPS builds, it should mean that overall damage coming from powers should be high. Dodgeable, but high enough to be on par with a fully stacked GWF. Then again, with the option to drop SE on the enemy's head. SE HP limit could be decreased to 40% and damage buffed, on executioners for example.
Can't go into detailes, but overall, my guess is that TR should rather overall play like this, rather than the way it is now...
If current damage from at-wills+piercing damage is, possibily, enough only cause it's piercing and a non-stop streaming of damage, then the encounters buff should take this into account. The aim is to achieve current damage output, with a more fair mechanic (from encounters and not at-will spam), and a more fair and reasonable SE that would work as a proper execution with buffed damage on low HP enemy, and AP refill.
Survivability can stay the same since Sabo/MI with said mechanics would still kill the enemy, but slower, as it should be...may be with the exception of ITC that could be tweaked a bit.
As a TR, and I concur.
Multiple times, some TR players argue that if they lose SE or SO as they are now, then they don't have any damage or any way to fight. This is simply not true. Techinally, what they really mean when they say that is;
"We don't have any damage or any way to fight SAFELY, WITHOUT PUTTING OURSELVES AT RISK
TR players since mod5 are so used to dealing maximal damage with minimal risk, that those who've grown accustomed to this have practically forgotten what it means to manage your risks. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why I am seeing almost an extinction of "middle-grade TRs" in terms of skill.
Perhaps this is my own arrogance speaking, but really, in the mod2~mod4 days, there were a LOT of TR players who weren't as skilled/geared/powerful as the top-dogs, but still knew how to fight close quarters, and still do their jobs by contesting a node.
Nowadays, when I see like 4~5 TRs in my side when starting a GG match, I know for certain things are going to be difficult because regardless of gear level, I KNOW for a fact more than half of those other TRs will be the half-baked MI/Sabo wannabes who knows nothing of how a TR can fight except simply spamming smokebomb, throwing CoS from stealth, and then just walking off the node and running away when that doesn't work. Been a TR for my entire existence in this game when I see stuff like that its just EMBARRASSING.
Not only is it embarrassing, but also useless for the team, in that a TR like that only functions well enough as a support class, nothing but a shuttle for smokebombing and worth little to nothing as an independent stealth class that can troll nodes, lure people, and stall opponents... and when these are the only TRs I'm seeing in domination or GG, I can only say I don't find it very convincing when TR players complain that they need all that SO and SE and whatnot to be able to function as a combatant.
To me, (again, excuse if this is my own, arrogant pride) that simply sounds like nothing but a bunch of fellow TR brothers who've become so lazy and fat-on-their-bottoms by resorting to boring and skill-less tactics that they've no idea just how much potential the TR holds then just repeating a drowsy perma-routine.
There is damage, there are alternatives, there are other options which (although few) talented non-Sabo TRs use every day, sometimes even against BiS level players to have them work. Maybe these TRs aren't the cream of the crop, the best of the best, but still I know a lot of them to be at least leaps and bounds above average in skill, and would probably be much better than even some of the less famous/ranking members of the famous premade guilds.
There are ways. Sabo players just don't know this, because up to this point they've never tried anything else since mod5. Like mentioned, these other ways aren't as one-sided and easy as the mod5~early mod6 MI/Sabo methods. Maybe in those days you can simply stand at a nice spot, throw 4~5 CoS shots and score more than 20k damage just from that alone, but these "alternatives" would require you to take more risks and still do less damage than you were able to. But then, in every meaning of the word, THAT'S WHAT PVP IS
Every move, every attack you take carries risks and dangers. The higher the risk, the higher the dangers, the lower the risk, the safer your tactics, the less reward it must give out. It is only when that becomes true, that the "other guy" also haves options and counters, and the mix-up of mind-games and trading blows that follows as both sides constantly make choices and deal with the consequences, that's what PvP is supposed to be.
Not this worthless krap of spamming ranged attacks overbuffed from broken stuff like SO + LostM set bonus, from totally safety invisibility, until your AP fires up in every 1-min intervals to activate a 1-touch execution against the other guy, without him ever having the opportunity to fight back to land even a single good attack.
That's not PvP. I don't call that PvP. I call that mental mast*rbation.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
sorry ,..im only saying just for a trade..because currently this thread is a war between GWFs and TRs
dev will not look into it...TR doesnt want nerfing ofc...but GWF wants it..this debate is endless..
im a TR myself (MI/exe ofc..not ****perma)...SE hard to land for other classes with dodging ability/shielding etc..if 1vs1 ..you can hear the deadly sound,..but easy to SW and GWF actually, most of the time..because they ....j..u..s..t..cant dodge..
really sorry for GWF and SW...actually IMHO GWF and SW need dodge ability, ...
many broken factors than nerfing this actually,..that DEV really need to look into ..like PERMA **** stealth and
**** CC....this is broken..nothing in pvp MMO ive played b4 have perma...UO, DaoC, linage2, GW2...
well back to topic...SE is fine maybe nerf the range..thats all..10' range...nerf perma please.....