SE has the AP refill effect. Looks like someone forgets this when comparing it to other dailies. So if you don't shoot it randomly but wait and time it at the 30% hp threesold, you get double daily.
It's supposed to be an execution. Which usually means the target is already almost dead.
MI/ Sabo has amazing survivability. Which should allow him to SLOWLY drain his enemy's hp, then execute. But these guys want the safety of sabo builds, good damage burst for fast killing and piercing unavoidable daily on gwf/SW cause hey, i don't want to time my hits.
The ap refill explains how the daily is supposed to be used. Not as a nuke on a full hp enemy but as an execution, with bonus to get daily up again if you use your brain and hit a low hp target with it.
Also, pimplathoes does not need to use photoshop to fool a scrub 2k TR, imho.
This said, SE must be affected by SW/gwf dodge and there's not even the need to explain why a nuke power/daily should not ignore an enemy proper dodge mechanic, while you can dodge every move the enemy can use on you.
Then he is not Sab Tr.
...
The damage log indicated you fall first, then nuKe number pop up.
You looked at the damage log, and then managed to miss the part where it said "shadowy opportunity" just underneath shocking execution?
Miss SO? SO is never be a problem after nerf.
The problem is the order of this logs and the initial damage. Like i said, this post is meanless after SO nerf.
[Error] You have fallen in battle
(~Soulforge time~receive help)
[Comb log] 124056
[SO]4936
Let's remove 4936 damage away. But the nuke number is the first hit.
It's self explained.
Be realistic, if 3.2 TR can hit 124k from full HP, imagine how many damage 4.2 can hit
I d like to watch some posts complaint about 200K SE damage from 4.2 TR.
Better Photoshop some. I can provide technical support.
Tr, like i said, you can't be 1 shotted by equal geard Tr. Then after that, you at least have possibility to run away. Cus no cc attach on it.
You will be 1 shotted by Tr only because you don't have enough HP
Yes TR can 1 shot. Not you but others can.
I show you again. Don't pretend to be blind potato
[img][/img]
So you say 123k HP that i have it's no enough??? When most ppl running 95-105k HP.
And he was even not equal geard. 3.5 vs 4.2
Then he is not Sab Tr.
This kind of damage from 3.5 Sab is impossible. Even he invest all his point to str, 16-18Dex with t.vorpal(assume no bug)
First strike is not enough. He need to use executioner path, and yout HP is not full.
The damage log indicated you fall first, then nuKe number pop up.
Because executioner hit you 60% more when you less than 30% HP.
If a 3.5 Tr 1 shot your 4k+ gwf from full without broken wheel or you haven't been debuffed . Then it is a problem.
And i vote to remove.
But hey, ask Tr forum maybe?
Saying that the TR isn't a saboteur.
However, as macjae says, if you look at the screenshot you see "Shadowy Opportunity" pop up on the line right below, which clearly indicates the TR /is/ a Sab TR. Read please.
At this stage TR is kind of hard to balance without reworking it entirely. The permastealth FOTM build is far too strong in the wrong ways, and far too weak in the places it should be strong in. TRs should deal more consistent damage rather than having to completely rely on a daily for damage, and should also have far more vulnerability frames like every other class in the game.
Shocking Execution is wrong as a concept in general, with the massive piercing damage it does. Yes, it's dodgeable for most classes, and even in that case it's still a cheesy mechanic, because of how much immunity a TR has. More consistent damage with less burst damage would be better across the board for all TR trees. For classes that don't have dodges, they will generally eventually lose to a TR unless they massively outskill or outgear the TR because SE deals a shitload of damage that can be difficult to outheal since you can't really do consistent damage to lifesteal back.
Additionally, SE coupled with the massive amount of immunity frames a TR has is difficult or impossible to counter for a lot of classes 1v1, unless the TR makes a major mistake (even then, free restealth from daily or run offnode). This is also due to recovery having no diminishing returns and no cap, which allows for massive RSI stacking to reduce cooldowns of ITC etc., which means TRs can make mistakes and still be able to get back into stealth. A standard BiS build TR has roughly 4-5 seconds of ITC downtime or less. Also the ability to spam dailies even with a DC arti, which will only get worse next mod, is increased by recovery stacking.
SE needs to respect DR. The base damage is still fairly high, but should probably be increased to compensate for tenacity and DR. A 60k SE on CW with no shield, HR, TR or SW (not sprinting), will be reduced to about 21.6k damage (tenacity DR + tenacity crit DR), and that's on a target whose DR is mitigated to 0. On a target with negation, that damage becomes 15.1k. On a sprinting SW, that becomes 10k. Fine, that's a bit too low. I think a base damage buff of about 40-66% should be fine, as a 40% damage boost will bring SE to 30k on low DR classes, and 20k on a sprinting SW. SE could also be buffed to match its name, i.e. a similar effect to GF's Anvil of Doom. Remove the double usage at a certain HP %, and change it to something along the lines of "When your target has less than 40% HP, the damage of Shocking Execution is doubled".
There's a lot more buffs and nerfs TRs could receive i.e. charge refill time (hard cooldown, no matter how much RSI you stack it'll always have a minimum of this time, look at HR skills for example) for ITC of 15 seconds at least or a change to ITC (remove deflect), a buff to base damage of certain skills, but also the addition of some sort of stealth reveal on Cloud of Steel. But that's for a different topic, really.
All in all, make SE respect DR but buff the base damage otherwise it'll just become another useless tool.
The problem is I don't trust his picture. 124K SE from 3.2K Item level TR, consider the TR has 29 STR (20 base point +7 point from 1-70 and +2STR from Puissance Belt)
This is +19% dmg bonus, you cant believe 3.2K TR has R12 Radiant right?
From campaign and several R9-R10 radiant and elemental mixed pvp gears, the power may reach 15000 power. that is 40% damage bonus
And consider P.V and dragon campaign bonus, crit severtity reach 85%(in real it will less than 85%)
If a TR have 16894 power (when I was wear pet). the tooltip of shocking Execution is
21315 - 25776
(I use 16000+ power here to consider GutterBorn's Touch)
Which means 38367 - 46397 if crit. Which I think the most of 3K - 3K5 TRs feel SE can deal.
Add the first strike feature, thats 30%+15%+15%+15% = 75%
The final damage is 37301 - 81194.
Which means, even with Elven Ferocity, the contaminated damage is not over 95K
The first 4 feat from either Scoundrel or Executioner cannot boost your power to deal over 100k damage
Press the Advantage from scoundrel path can give you addition 10% power, but lets say you have 19000+ power
The base damage from shocking execution still under
22110 - 26740
But if his HP is less than 30% and TR is executioner
With DeathKnell + Last moments + ShadowBorn, this damage is doable
That is total 50% more damage and double power
30000 power
The base damage could around 25000-30000
Then crit is 50000. plus 75% + 50%, then the max output can over 112K.
He either modified that picture or not count buffs on TR
Combat advantage, you idiot. TR gets a minimum of +15% damage from stealth due to stealth granting combat advantage. And most TRs stack CHA and combat advantage stat so it can reach a lot more than that, more like 30%+. Also, you're assuming a saboteur can't use executioner's feats. For example, arterial cut is a tier 1 feat and a must for sabos. Adds +15% crit severity from stealth. That makes it 145% crit severity with p.vorpal. Moreover, Ambusher's Haste adds up to 25% more damage in stealth too. So a medium geared TR can hit for well over 124k.
If you suck so much at building your toon, don't assume others do.
First, don't insulting ppl on forum. Discussion is discussion.
As I said in last post If you put 29 str, you don't have enough CHA for enough combat advantage damage.
You can add this up but you lost huge base damage.
Combat advantage add up from your feat 400, and artifacts.
Put DC sigil, lostmauth away you only can stack 1600 600+600+400 combat advantage. Which must be specific mystic artifact. And you consider this on a 3.2 TR
Add them up and you still want to use base damage on 15000 power
The max you can get is 24000, average 22000
145% crit , 53000.
still need 130%~150% damage boost required
But I'm not quite sure about combat advantage effect the final output in SE. Or not repect opponent's defence as well.
Still, 124K from 3.2 TR is impossible.
LIke i said, either psed or At least some buffs is not added in. Otherwise 4.2 Tr can 1 shot everything.
@zvieris
You just stand there 1 minute waiting for another SE drop?
You have artifact as well.
Waters of elah'zad can healing you to full in 6 seconds. Or lanthern. Either way its not a problem.
@clonkyo1
100k is possible, i already said. What i said is 124K from 3.2 TR without any other factors is impossible. With higher item you can deal even more, but only on first attack.
With negation, i don't think they have problem to face other attacks from TR.
Because you obviously can only stack 1 stat, right? Let's consider your 'average' SE of 22k damage. Now 22k*2.45(crit)*1.15(combat advantage)*1.75(first strike)=108k. And that's without any pots, with only base combat advantage and without any buffs except for First Strike and Arterial Cut feat. If you invested in combat advantage, used crit severity potion and stuff 124k is more than possible and doesn't even need high IL.
@zvieris
You just stand there 1 minute waiting for another SE drop?
You have artifact as well.
Waters of elah'zad can healing you to full in 6 seconds. Or lanthern. Either way its not a problem.
End of discussion.[/quote]
do you even think before you speak? waters of elah'zad only heals you for 24k.
Since some individuals have seen fit to track me and my guild down, I feel the need to state that this sort of childish vindictiveness is unwelcome harassment. I specified that I did not want this sort of contact... my opinions are my own, and people have already been denigrating my guild in Zone chat. You know who you are. You're not 'cool' for doing so, and no amount of being good at this game entitles you to talk down to anyone.
With that being said:
1. I've had a few hundred matches in between the 60's and 70's tier, and I can count the amount of Trickster Rogues who were using First Strike on one hand. I know because I'm usually the one facing off with them, and it's painfully obvious when they go for Lashings or Shocking first. Earlier, I was mopping the floor with two rogues like this in a PvP match -- First Strike is automatically useless when they miss the first strike, unlike both of my passives.
Centering your build around being a one-trick pony is foolish, if the teams are at all even. Yeah, it does a lot of damage in one hit... but damage ain't everything, as people who actually PvP well know. It's important, but not crucial enough to sacrifice the overall utility of your build. Many other passives are superior 99% of the time, not just good in very limited circumstances. So when I said people aren't using First Strike much, I wasn't kidding.
Tuning nerfs around passives that aren't seeing *frequent* use is obviously rather silly.
2. If you wait for the 'refill' on Shocking, the odds that you'll successfully proc it with First Strike drop SIGNIFICANTLY. Using First Strike is making a bet with yourself, and that bet is that you'll hit it the first time in every single fight.
Pando seems to assume that many things like this are standard fare in every fight with a TR, much as he assumes other things that are flat-out wrong about rogues. I would imagine he has trouble with fighting them, but it's hard for me to say... since I can't recall seeing any one of Pando's three characters in any of my matches, despite PvPing frequently.
3. Macjae's screenshot also confirms precisely what I was saying about the 'average' damage on Shocking in a typical game, demonstrating that I (and the people who assisted me) were correct about how it never hits 80-90k+ without the use of First Strike. It also seems to confirm how many people aren't using First Strike, proving me correct again.
I'd say that I should get an apology from some folks (especially the sort of arrogant individuals who would refer to me as a '2k scrub' or so on), but we know those apologies aren't going to come. So moving on...
4. I highly doubt any TR is stacking Charisma over Strength, Dexterity or Intelligence (for Recovery TRs). I also doubt many rogues are going out of their way to 'max out' their Combat Advantage bonus. If you do any serious attacking at all from Stealth, you don't tend to stay in Stealth very long. This is more of the same stupidly simplistic 'focusing on one attack and one attack only' thinking that was already spoken of above. Ironic, since Zvieris was being so insulting about how much raistlintao 'sucks at building toons'. This train of thought leads us to...
6. How most GWFs I've fought have no finesse. Many of them are all about 'RARGH, ME SMASH OUT DAMAGE AND NOT HAVE TO THINK' -- ironically, the same kind of play that Pando assumes is equally true of rogues. News flash: it's not. If this sort of play is what you think we have to do away with, I'm completely fine with nerfing the GWF for the ability to dodge Shocking Execution! Let's start by nerfing the GWF's damage, which is usually superior to mine outside of SE.
This seems like a fair proposition to me, Pando! Everybody wins -- you get your dodge, and I get more of an even fight with GWFs who'd have to think a little before they charge into every single fight and swing away like fools.
All kidding aside (because I know you'd never nerf your beloved classes), I'm actually fine with getting rid of the constant piercing -- as long as Shocking is instantlykilling anyone under its HP threshold.
So I think I've given you gentlemen (?) enough of my time. It's nice to see that I've been vindicated at this point, but I doubt I'll be back on the forums anytime soon. DO NOT track me down in the game. Thank you.
Yep, you still need to drink elixir potion before hand in order to archive this number.
These are "other factors" I'm talking about
Which is really, irrelevant. From a standpoint of balance principle an attack which is unmitigable, unavoidable, inevitable is simply broken as it denies the very foundation behind what makes PvP -- active player choice that ushers in certain amount of rewards as well as its own risks.
You keep on trying to weasle your way out of this discussion by challenging the numbers behind SE, as in "100k+ damage either doesn't happen, or is rare to be of issue", which is in all honesty simpl irrelevant. On grounds of principle we have an attack that; does not respect defenses, is impossible or near-impossible to evade, and severely imbalanced in terms of risk-reward.
It doesn't matter if it does only 30k damage. In a game with average HP level of the players around 90k~120k, repeat it 3 or 4 times and that's a win. The fact that it is unmitigable, unavoidable and inevitable, guarantees that against the SW and GWF classes that the power will always land, and the only real factor is time -- as in the danger of you getting killed before you repeat the process... except, this power is made available on a TR, and therefore the 1-minute intervals between each use of SigDiv artifact is pretty much granted.
There is nothing which excuses both the SO (even in its currently nerfed form) and SE. SO should be either removed, totally redesigned, or nerfed down to Oppressive Darkness levels, and SE should be changed as well.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Also, pimplathoes does not need to use photoshop to fool a scrub 2k TR, imho.
Couldn't help but notice how well you described lower geared players. Perhaps we should bow to your eliteness, imho.
It's not a matter of gear.
He stated he is 2k (fact).
He accused a much more exped player who actually sits in top 40 gwf board with BiS gear to photoshop his screens.
He is not bringing any valid argument to the discussion and his posts are filled with bad knowledge and errors, pointed out by multiple experienced players from multiple classes included his own.
He keeps replying with stuff that for exped players makes no sense.
Can't call him an experienced player.
He shows bad knowledge of other classes and bad knowledge of his own class too (executioner with shadowy opportunity anyone?).
And he is the one being rude and accusing others to lie.
Also, pimplathoes does not need to use photoshop to fool a scrub 2k TR, imho.
Couldn't help but notice how well you described lower geared players. Perhaps we should bow to your eliteness, imho.
It's not a matter of gear.
He stated he is 2k (fact).
He accused a much more exped player who actually sits in top 40 gwf board with BiS gear to photoshop his screens.
He is not bringing any valid argument to the discussion and his posts are filled with bad knowledge and errors, pointed out by multiple experienced players from multiple classes included his own.
He keeps replying with stuff that for exped players makes no sense.
Can't call him an experienced player.
He shows bad knowledge of other classes and bad knowledge of his own class too (executioner with shadowy opportunity anyone?).
And he is the one being rude and accusing others to lie.
If you want to see me you can do it in game.
My posts about pvp and my own class are here on forums so you can also see if i know my class and the game,or not.
0
Options
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
its so obvious that Rastlin potato doesnt know what hes talking about, he changes his statements every other day... but that doesnt change the fact that this daily is giving GWF and SW an obvious disadvantage way beyond skill level but at design level. I believe the devs should really look into it as the number of viewers and replies in this thread shows how many people concern about this issue... Hopefully this would be addressed in the nect few patches
Let them have their SE. Seems like many of the not so good TRs need it. But give the SW and GWF some DR that works like CWs shield on TAB while sprinting. Cus beeing 1shoted is very anoying esp when u cant do anyting to avoid it.
Then you should know that survivability is given by tnegation+tfey+20% LS chance if i can guess.
Basically the gear fills-up the build issues.
Give both guys a soulforged. TR survivabilty will stay high. GWF survivability will drop a lot more.
It's the same as mod 5 intimidation gwf imho.
Current gwf is allowed to get serious only once half-dead.
The above BiS setup allows him to recover and benefit from his full power.
Other classes instead are effective indipendently from gear. Cause it's their mechanic that gives them most of their power.
GWF must always use gear to make their crappy mechanics work.
Problem is, not all gwfs are BiS and can reach the sweet spot where gear allows you to recover and benefit from your full power.
GWF isn't the only class gear dependent. Try playing TR without good weapon enchant and elol set. Let me know how much you can kill.
SE has the AP refill effect. Looks like someone forgets this when comparing it to other dailies. So if you don't shoot it randomly but wait and time it at the 30% hp threesold, you get double daily.
It's supposed to be an execution. Which usually means the target is already almost dead.
MI/ Sabo has amazing survivability. Which should allow him to SLOWLY drain his enemy's hp, then execute. But these guys want the safety of sabo builds, good damage burst for fast killing and piercing unavoidable daily on gwf/SW cause hey, i don't want to time my hits.
The ap refill explains how the daily is supposed to be used. Not as a nuke on a full hp enemy but as an execution, with bonus to get daily up again if you use your brain and hit a low hp target with it.
Also, pimplathoes does not need to use photoshop to fool a scrub 2k TR, imho.
This said, SE must be affected by SW/gwf dodge and there's not even the need to explain why a nuke power/daily should not ignore an enemy proper dodge mechanic, while you can dodge every move the enemy can use on you.
No. TR is an assassin and should've the highest burst in the game, yet in mod6 most of his dps encounter deal so low dmg that you'd need to use them for 5 mins to kill similar geared enemy. SE is the only real burst TR has left and once that's gone, people will start to complain, because you dont have to be very clever to realize that other classes deal the same or higher dmg with their encounters, but with much shorter cooldowns and from high range on top of that.
In mod 5 when SoD was bugged 1 LB out of stealth was often enough to take ~75-100% HP from squishy specs. In mod6 it's barely enough to take CW shield and that's with frist strike passive. While CW can just spam OF every 15s followed by 5s desitegrate and 1-2 other random encounters.
Sort out NLC by losses and you will quickly find out how many players fail with TR, cause the class itself is gimp, but BIS gear can make 1 of the 3 pathes playable.
I think I need an apology to Sabo tr's. I started a Sabo TR myselfy and enjoying really a lot in pvp. Free kills, perma stealth, countless defence mechanics, who doesn't want that? No way I'm going back to GWF...
Edit : Oh forgot to mention, I've been playing TR for only 2 days but damn I already rock, there is no class can stand against me. Seems I really have the talent.
indeed all these potato caller bla bla im russian i can act as a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dont even play and if they do 1) i hardly saw them 2) the perform bad. see about 500, see about position 690-710 http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9357303
i dont play a tr.
i m almost starting to think they need a buff.
shocking is not that big problem but being totally piercing can be unfair. kk right i got the point.
just buff the damage to be the HARDEST HITTING daily in game and make if deflectable, dodgable (already is), count tenacity and defense.
it must be the hardest hitting tho, cause has no cc effect attached and they are f backstabber trs.
No. TR is an assassin and should've the highest burst in the game, yet in mod6 most of his dps encounter deal so low dmg that you'd need to use them for 5 mins to kill similar geared enemy. SE is the only real burst TR has left and once that's gone, people will start to complain, because you dont have to be very clever to realize that other classes deal the same or higher dmg with their encounters, but with much shorter cooldowns and from high range on top of that.
In mod 5 when SoD was bugged 1 LB out of stealth was often enough to take ~75-100% HP from squishy specs. In mod6 it's barely enough to take CW shield and that's with frist strike passive. While CW can just spam OF every 15s followed by 5s desitegrate and 1-2 other random encounters.
Sort out NLC by losses and you will quickly find out how many players fail with TR, cause the class itself is gimp, but BIS gear can make 1 of the 3 pathes playable.
There are plenty of ways to deal damage, pressure enemies, and contribute to the game without having to rely on broken stuff, or take for granted that for some reason us TRs are supposed to be able to fight 4~5 people at the same time. This reliance on insane burst damage didn't exist before mod5. TRs prior to mod5 were all about setups and combat tactics, timing, and even when SE was still overpowered back then, the limitations in gaining AP made it a lot less useful tool than it currently is. People didn't use to take for granted krap like these AP-gain neck equipment or Sigil of the Doofus.
Of course, let me make it very clear. When stuff like SO is removed and SE is nerfed, then a lot of the TRs, even the good ones, will struggle to take down opponents, since it means (like mentioned before) there's going to be a lot more attacks attempted then just flinging overbuffed CoS shots from range in invisibility, or waiting out regular 1-min interval SE spamming. This is going to put people into risk and danger a lot more often, into the bosoms of mighty DPS classes like the GWF or GFs, into line of danger, and will result in a lot more deaths, or at least disadvantaged situations where the TR is forced to run.
This will also make it a less proficient node-clearer, and perhaps even effect its node-troller status, and overall all TRs will be much less important in terms of PvP, although still the good ones will persist in trying to contest nodes. The rest of us mediocre Sabo players will be dying a lot more, and killing a lot less. They'll find it difficult to come up with tactics that require them to use high-risk, high-damage powers, or to come up with reliable attack combinations that will guarantee you sustained damage on the opponent. We usually call the ability to do such a thing "skill."
...
But then again, that is EXACTLY what the TRs should be. Taking risks like everyone else, dying like everyone else, and sometimes meeting odds or enemies too tough to take down alone -- like everyone else. What it means, is that in general TRs have been wielding much more results than the risks it takes, and as of mod5, with the Sabo it has become one of the easiest easy-mode classes in game. Give the right gear and even a dunce can land results when all it has to do is run around fling knives, wait for SE and spam.
Make no mistake -- when balancing happens the average rank, popularity, effectiveness of the TR class will fall A LOT than it used to be, and when that happens, the new position/situation they will be at, is the true measure of the class. For all this time the TR has been yielding bloated, easy results with minimum risk, which has spoiled its players so bad that they take for granted easy-peasy attacks that knock of like half-HP per pop.
TRs are gonna complain if SE is nerfed? Oh, they better be complaining. That's exactly what should happen. Learning to fight amidst danger.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As a result, its safe to say i have more PvP knowledge than you think?
As I assuming his picture is photoshopED, or "he didn't count other factors". I simply ignored SO, problem?
Geared players = knowledgeable players. Is this your argument?
Btw, i have checked your gears and took a look at your play style today in 2 PvP game.
Those leaderboards are quite different from real ones, did you notice.
I'm in page 24 in game, top 40 gwfs right now. Doing only solo queue pug pvp.
If you pvp, you should however know that leaderboard is not a reliable way to gauge a player skill, even if i wasn't in top 25/30 pages. Simple reason is, if you solo queue it's random luck. Today i met a gwf who was in page 13, got a row of bad games and fell down to page 56. You also drop while winning a game.
My gear is what the game allows me to have being a working guy who earns gear through play and not credit card. Still enough to do my job vs equally geared enemies.
I'm not hiding all my toons are listed in my signature and everybody can see me playing.
You instead are...? Cause i don't remember you saying anything in game if we met.
0
Options
seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
I think I need an apology to Sabo tr's. I started a Sabo TR myselfy and enjoying really a lot in pvp. Free kills, perma stealth, countless defence mechanics, who doesn't want that? No way I'm going back to GWF...
Edit : Oh forgot to mention, I've been playing TR for only 2 days but damn I already rock, there is no class can stand against me. Seems I really have the talent.
Enjoy the free ride until you hit 70. As many have said, it is very gear dependent. Until you get geared well, prepare to get wrecked once you hit 70, where you can't guarantee you will be running with the same gear level.
You mist the point. TR on average is already doing worse than any other class, hence over half of them are leading on the lossing page.
It's like saying that GWF is beyond broken because on the first few pages of Leaderboard there's few which have insane K/D/A and winning ratio. There's also warlock on page 2 with great stats, so the class can obviously be rewarding for the few skilled ones and rest just have to l2p.
When TR get's reliable CC and burst like GF can do, people wont mind getting rid of current SE.
0
Options
seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
I guess to end this discussion and move forward. Nerf SE and stealth. However, as an assassin class, devs should also increase burst damage to where it can take down an equally geared OP or DC. If you have qualms about that, I don't know, what kind of balance are you looking for? And for those who don't know, Yes I play TR, GWF, GF, CW and sometimes my SW on PVP. Yes it is unfair especially for SW when SE is used on you. I can easilly agree with you if SO wasn't nerfed and they just simply implemented the stealth reveal. Right now, without LOL set, it's very low on damage. As a matter of fact, I don't even have SO feated on my build. There really isn't a massive damage source for TR nowadays other than the mentioned daily. Yes, nerf it but buff other things as well.
i just see the thing for a higher point of view. not that im saying im better than you guys, with higher im mean just higher.
you see the high damage from shocking, which without first strike is 50-55k.. sometimes 60k but thats it.
meanwhile they play with a full defensive encounter ITC (and you says its their choice.. kk i understand you have a point)
with a 0 damage shadow strike ( and this is not their choice, no way. they have to slot it or die without even reaching the node).
their damaging encounters have 20 seconds cooldown with the exception of 12 seconds dazing strike. Their hardest hitting at will is duelist flurry which needs major skill and still hit for less that 1 boosted sure strike.
thats the higher point i was talking about.
no class share that.
do you ever seen a gwf with 8k recovery?
you are going to say "thats for permastealth bla bla bla" no. you can do it without recovery with no prob. Slot tactics and still have a greater number of dailies than a 8k recovery tr.
they are just forced.
so yes, shocking execution being totally piercing is just unfair vs gwf and sw but just make it not piercing would cause shoking execution to be the lowest hitting daily in game.
we can continue to argue but my point as a hr but i know its shared by many of my friends is:
1) without shocking they are hardly a threat today.
2) with stealth reveal they would be the worst class by far.
3) they have a forced and much predictable gameplay.
Comments
SE has the AP refill effect. Looks like someone forgets this when comparing it to other dailies. So if you don't shoot it randomly but wait and time it at the 30% hp threesold, you get double daily.
It's supposed to be an execution. Which usually means the target is already almost dead.
MI/ Sabo has amazing survivability. Which should allow him to SLOWLY drain his enemy's hp, then execute. But these guys want the safety of sabo builds, good damage burst for fast killing and piercing unavoidable daily on gwf/SW cause hey, i don't want to time my hits.
The ap refill explains how the daily is supposed to be used. Not as a nuke on a full hp enemy but as an execution, with bonus to get daily up again if you use your brain and hit a low hp target with it.
Also, pimplathoes does not need to use photoshop to fool a scrub 2k TR, imho.
This said, SE must be affected by SW/gwf dodge and there's not even the need to explain why a nuke power/daily should not ignore an enemy proper dodge mechanic, while you can dodge every move the enemy can use on you.
remove SE pircing...done...
remove crescendo stun...done...
all class will be happy
Couldn't help but notice how well you described lower geared players. Perhaps we should bow to your eliteness, imho.
Because you obviously can only stack 1 stat, right? Let's consider your 'average' SE of 22k damage. Now 22k*2.45(crit)*1.15(combat advantage)*1.75(first strike)=108k. And that's without any pots, with only base combat advantage and without any buffs except for First Strike and Arterial Cut feat. If you invested in combat advantage, used crit severity potion and stuff 124k is more than possible and doesn't even need high IL.
End of discussion.
@zvieris
You just stand there 1 minute waiting for another SE drop?
You have artifact as well.
Waters of elah'zad can healing you to full in 6 seconds. Or lanthern. Either way its not a problem.
End of discussion.[/quote]
do you even think before you speak? waters of elah'zad only heals you for 24k.
With that being said:
1. I've had a few hundred matches in between the 60's and 70's tier, and I can count the amount of Trickster Rogues who were using First Strike on one hand. I know because I'm usually the one facing off with them, and it's painfully obvious when they go for Lashings or Shocking first. Earlier, I was mopping the floor with two rogues like this in a PvP match -- First Strike is automatically useless when they miss the first strike, unlike both of my passives.
Centering your build around being a one-trick pony is foolish, if the teams are at all even. Yeah, it does a lot of damage in one hit... but damage ain't everything, as people who actually PvP well know. It's important, but not crucial enough to sacrifice the overall utility of your build. Many other passives are superior 99% of the time, not just good in very limited circumstances. So when I said people aren't using First Strike much, I wasn't kidding.
Tuning nerfs around passives that aren't seeing *frequent* use is obviously rather silly.
2. If you wait for the 'refill' on Shocking, the odds that you'll successfully proc it with First Strike drop SIGNIFICANTLY. Using First Strike is making a bet with yourself, and that bet is that you'll hit it the first time in every single fight.
Pando seems to assume that many things like this are standard fare in every fight with a TR, much as he assumes other things that are flat-out wrong about rogues. I would imagine he has trouble with fighting them, but it's hard for me to say... since I can't recall seeing any one of Pando's three characters in any of my matches, despite PvPing frequently.
3. Macjae's screenshot also confirms precisely what I was saying about the 'average' damage on Shocking in a typical game, demonstrating that I (and the people who assisted me) were correct about how it never hits 80-90k+ without the use of First Strike. It also seems to confirm how many people aren't using First Strike, proving me correct again.
I'd say that I should get an apology from some folks (especially the sort of arrogant individuals who would refer to me as a '2k scrub' or so on), but we know those apologies aren't going to come. So moving on...
4. I highly doubt any TR is stacking Charisma over Strength, Dexterity or Intelligence (for Recovery TRs). I also doubt many rogues are going out of their way to 'max out' their Combat Advantage bonus. If you do any serious attacking at all from Stealth, you don't tend to stay in Stealth very long. This is more of the same stupidly simplistic 'focusing on one attack and one attack only' thinking that was already spoken of above. Ironic, since Zvieris was being so insulting about how much raistlintao 'sucks at building toons'. This train of thought leads us to...
6. How most GWFs I've fought have no finesse. Many of them are all about 'RARGH, ME SMASH OUT DAMAGE AND NOT HAVE TO THINK' -- ironically, the same kind of play that Pando assumes is equally true of rogues. News flash: it's not. If this sort of play is what you think we have to do away with, I'm completely fine with nerfing the GWF for the ability to dodge Shocking Execution! Let's start by nerfing the GWF's damage, which is usually superior to mine outside of SE.
This seems like a fair proposition to me, Pando! Everybody wins -- you get your dodge, and I get more of an even fight with GWFs who'd have to think a little before they charge into every single fight and swing away like fools.
All kidding aside (because I know you'd never nerf your beloved classes), I'm actually fine with getting rid of the constant piercing -- as long as Shocking is instantly killing anyone under its HP threshold.
So I think I've given you gentlemen (?) enough of my time. It's nice to see that I've been vindicated at this point, but I doubt I'll be back on the forums anytime soon. DO NOT track me down in the game. Thank you.
Which is really, irrelevant. From a standpoint of balance principle an attack which is unmitigable, unavoidable, inevitable is simply broken as it denies the very foundation behind what makes PvP -- active player choice that ushers in certain amount of rewards as well as its own risks.
You keep on trying to weasle your way out of this discussion by challenging the numbers behind SE, as in "100k+ damage either doesn't happen, or is rare to be of issue", which is in all honesty simpl irrelevant. On grounds of principle we have an attack that; does not respect defenses, is impossible or near-impossible to evade, and severely imbalanced in terms of risk-reward.
It doesn't matter if it does only 30k damage. In a game with average HP level of the players around 90k~120k, repeat it 3 or 4 times and that's a win. The fact that it is unmitigable, unavoidable and inevitable, guarantees that against the SW and GWF classes that the power will always land, and the only real factor is time -- as in the danger of you getting killed before you repeat the process... except, this power is made available on a TR, and therefore the 1-minute intervals between each use of SigDiv artifact is pretty much granted.
There is nothing which excuses both the SO (even in its currently nerfed form) and SE. SO should be either removed, totally redesigned, or nerfed down to Oppressive Darkness levels, and SE should be changed as well.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It's not a matter of gear.
He stated he is 2k (fact).
He accused a much more exped player who actually sits in top 40 gwf board with BiS gear to photoshop his screens.
He is not bringing any valid argument to the discussion and his posts are filled with bad knowledge and errors, pointed out by multiple experienced players from multiple classes included his own.
He keeps replying with stuff that for exped players makes no sense.
Can't call him an experienced player.
He shows bad knowledge of other classes and bad knowledge of his own class too (executioner with shadowy opportunity anyone?).
And he is the one being rude and accusing others to lie.
It's not a matter of gear.
He stated he is 2k (fact).
He accused a much more exped player who actually sits in top 40 gwf board with BiS gear to photoshop his screens.
He is not bringing any valid argument to the discussion and his posts are filled with bad knowledge and errors, pointed out by multiple experienced players from multiple classes included his own.
He keeps replying with stuff that for exped players makes no sense.
Can't call him an experienced player.
He shows bad knowledge of other classes and bad knowledge of his own class too (executioner with shadowy opportunity anyone?).
And he is the one being rude and accusing others to lie.
If you want to see me you can do it in game.
My posts about pvp and my own class are here on forums so you can also see if i know my class and the game,or not.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
GWF isn't the only class gear dependent. Try playing TR without good weapon enchant and elol set. Let me know how much you can kill.
No. TR is an assassin and should've the highest burst in the game, yet in mod6 most of his dps encounter deal so low dmg that you'd need to use them for 5 mins to kill similar geared enemy. SE is the only real burst TR has left and once that's gone, people will start to complain, because you dont have to be very clever to realize that other classes deal the same or higher dmg with their encounters, but with much shorter cooldowns and from high range on top of that.
In mod 5 when SoD was bugged 1 LB out of stealth was often enough to take ~75-100% HP from squishy specs. In mod6 it's barely enough to take CW shield and that's with frist strike passive. While CW can just spam OF every 15s followed by 5s desitegrate and 1-2 other random encounters.
Sort out NLC by losses and you will quickly find out how many players fail with TR, cause the class itself is gimp, but BIS gear can make 1 of the 3 pathes playable.
Edit : Oh forgot to mention, I've been playing TR for only 2 days but damn I already rock, there is no class can stand against me. Seems I really have the talent.
i dont play a tr.
i m almost starting to think they need a buff.
shocking is not that big problem but being totally piercing can be unfair. kk right i got the point.
just buff the damage to be the HARDEST HITTING daily in game and make if deflectable, dodgable (already is), count tenacity and defense.
it must be the hardest hitting tho, cause has no cc effect attached and they are f backstabber trs.
There are plenty of ways to deal damage, pressure enemies, and contribute to the game without having to rely on broken stuff, or take for granted that for some reason us TRs are supposed to be able to fight 4~5 people at the same time. This reliance on insane burst damage didn't exist before mod5. TRs prior to mod5 were all about setups and combat tactics, timing, and even when SE was still overpowered back then, the limitations in gaining AP made it a lot less useful tool than it currently is. People didn't use to take for granted krap like these AP-gain neck equipment or Sigil of the Doofus.
Of course, let me make it very clear. When stuff like SO is removed and SE is nerfed, then a lot of the TRs, even the good ones, will struggle to take down opponents, since it means (like mentioned before) there's going to be a lot more attacks attempted then just flinging overbuffed CoS shots from range in invisibility, or waiting out regular 1-min interval SE spamming. This is going to put people into risk and danger a lot more often, into the bosoms of mighty DPS classes like the GWF or GFs, into line of danger, and will result in a lot more deaths, or at least disadvantaged situations where the TR is forced to run.
This will also make it a less proficient node-clearer, and perhaps even effect its node-troller status, and overall all TRs will be much less important in terms of PvP, although still the good ones will persist in trying to contest nodes. The rest of us mediocre Sabo players will be dying a lot more, and killing a lot less. They'll find it difficult to come up with tactics that require them to use high-risk, high-damage powers, or to come up with reliable attack combinations that will guarantee you sustained damage on the opponent. We usually call the ability to do such a thing "skill."
...
But then again, that is EXACTLY what the TRs should be. Taking risks like everyone else, dying like everyone else, and sometimes meeting odds or enemies too tough to take down alone -- like everyone else. What it means, is that in general TRs have been wielding much more results than the risks it takes, and as of mod5, with the Sabo it has become one of the easiest easy-mode classes in game. Give the right gear and even a dunce can land results when all it has to do is run around fling knives, wait for SE and spam.
Make no mistake -- when balancing happens the average rank, popularity, effectiveness of the TR class will fall A LOT than it used to be, and when that happens, the new position/situation they will be at, is the true measure of the class. For all this time the TR has been yielding bloated, easy results with minimum risk, which has spoiled its players so bad that they take for granted easy-peasy attacks that knock of like half-HP per pop.
TRs are gonna complain if SE is nerfed? Oh, they better be complaining. That's exactly what should happen. Learning to fight amidst danger.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Those leaderboards are quite different from real ones, did you notice.
I'm in page 24 in game, top 40 gwfs right now. Doing only solo queue pug pvp.
If you pvp, you should however know that leaderboard is not a reliable way to gauge a player skill, even if i wasn't in top 25/30 pages. Simple reason is, if you solo queue it's random luck. Today i met a gwf who was in page 13, got a row of bad games and fell down to page 56. You also drop while winning a game.
My gear is what the game allows me to have being a working guy who earns gear through play and not credit card. Still enough to do my job vs equally geared enemies.
I'm not hiding all my toons are listed in my signature and everybody can see me playing.
You instead are...? Cause i don't remember you saying anything in game if we met.
Enjoy the free ride until you hit 70. As many have said, it is very gear dependent. Until you get geared well, prepare to get wrecked once you hit 70, where you can't guarantee you will be running with the same gear level.
You mist the point. TR on average is already doing worse than any other class, hence over half of them are leading on the lossing page.
It's like saying that GWF is beyond broken because on the first few pages of Leaderboard there's few which have insane K/D/A and winning ratio. There's also warlock on page 2 with great stats, so the class can obviously be rewarding for the few skilled ones and rest just have to l2p.
When TR get's reliable CC and burst like GF can do, people wont mind getting rid of current SE.
you see the high damage from shocking, which without first strike is 50-55k.. sometimes 60k but thats it.
meanwhile they play with a full defensive encounter ITC (and you says its their choice.. kk i understand you have a point)
with a 0 damage shadow strike ( and this is not their choice, no way. they have to slot it or die without even reaching the node).
their damaging encounters have 20 seconds cooldown with the exception of 12 seconds dazing strike. Their hardest hitting at will is duelist flurry which needs major skill and still hit for less that 1 boosted sure strike.
thats the higher point i was talking about.
no class share that.
do you ever seen a gwf with 8k recovery?
you are going to say "thats for permastealth bla bla bla" no. you can do it without recovery with no prob. Slot tactics and still have a greater number of dailies than a 8k recovery tr.
they are just forced.
so yes, shocking execution being totally piercing is just unfair vs gwf and sw but just make it not piercing would cause shoking execution to be the lowest hitting daily in game.
we can continue to argue but my point as a hr but i know its shared by many of my friends is:
1) without shocking they are hardly a threat today.
2) with stealth reveal they would be the worst class by far.
3) they have a forced and much predictable gameplay.