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Neverwinter: Strongholds Coming Summer 2015 (Now on Preview!)

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    kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    Yeah, I would take this kind of tip as well.
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    beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    People were very reluctant to start documenting requirements because the system is complex, getting it written up is going to be a lot of work, and it's all subject to change until it launches.

    For example, one subset of new resources was already changed to a single item instead of four. Testers are hoping for more of that type of change.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

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    aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,367 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    The way Cryptic has designed the new currencies is that PvPers will have a HUGE advantage over PvEers doing the entirety of PvE content. To be exact, PvPers can select to build a structure (The Barracks) that offer a 20% DPS boost which is unfair and a direct offensive advantage in all the hardest areas of the game for PvEers.

    PvPing should not give you a buff to dominate on the PvE side of the game, at the expense of PvEers. It just makes no sense. Currently the only way to get such a buff is through PvP.

    This is nothing short of an outrage for players and guilds alike that DO NOT wish to PvP. This has ALREADY negatively affected PvE guilds and will be a deal breaker for many PvErs and the costs will be major headaches for guild leaders and lost revenue for Cryptic.

    The solution being floated around the community is a new SINGLE CURRENCY that allows players and guilds to build the structures they choose. This would satisfy PvE guilds and PvP guilds alike, as EVERYONE CAN PLAY THE GAME THE WAY THEY WANT TO PLAY. I think this is a great idea, and should be worked into the update BEFORE release.





    TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
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    aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,367 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    The #1 reason people join guilds should be the PEOPLE. Friendships are actually made in guilds. Why then, should friends need to split just because of a buff? Its absurd. I will go so far to suggest this one decision will negatively affect the global re-playability factor in the game.

    The boons we choose to build will best match our playstyle. However, we didn't form because of a buff, we formed and continue to co-exist because of the friendships made and the camaraderie we share. This is numero uno why Tyrs Paladium is still here and is still going strong. Its why MANY guilds are still here and going strong.

    This decision has no redeeming value for anyone, is a net negative for PvE guilds, and will cause a ton of unnecessary strife. You will ABSOLUTELY see guildies breaking apart from their current guild just to get that 20% DPS boost.

    This is NOT why guilds are created, nor exist. This needs to be addressed BEFORE it hits live.

    TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
    No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
    Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    I generally agree that incentivizing people to ditch their guild to join another guild ("vote with your feet") leaves a pretty bad taste in my mouth. I don't care much for guild activity in general, so I've stayed with my (mostly dead) guild for a while now. Strongholds basically says "Yeah, if you do that, you basically don't get to play this mod lulz"

    Mostly I'm not toooooo concerned, because I imagine mod 8 will be more solo friendly.
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    aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,367 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    I've stayed with my (mostly dead) guild for a while now. Strongholds basically says "Yeah, if you do that, you basically don't get to play this mod lulz"

    I don't blame you man. It's called pride. I hope your guild becomes great again.

    The biggest carrot that Cryptic can throw Neverwinter guild leaders is Stronghold content in which people can play the game the way they choose too. This one aspect will have a net benefit of watching those who LEFT THE GAME to come back, to play with their friends and guild mates. By forcing PvP onto PvE focused guilds and PvE onto PvP focused guilds, this carrot is valueless for this recruitment purpose.

    What better way to thank the Founders guild leaders who gave THEIR ALL to keep their guilds together in the weeks and months following Neverwinter's launch??

    Come on Devs, please hear our call!!!



    TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
    No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
    Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    Okay, so, here's the thing:

    The current design of Strongholds makes a lot of sense-

    -as a single player game. Don't understand? Let me tell you a story. An allegory if you will.

    Once upon a time, there was a Dungeon Master, who decided that he would run a widgety kind of campaign. There would be PNPCs in the party, and the players could determine which character they would bring along into any given encounter. It would add some tactical RPG elements to the campaign! But lo, did the players hate this mechanic, and it ruined everything. The moral of our story, is that sometimes what's an interesting dynamic when controlled by a single person doing their single thing, becomes convoluted or unworkable when applied to a group dynamic.

    As a single player RPG where you're a character who builds your guild, as a sort of SimGuildie sort of thing, I love the idea of "you must choose what buildings to make! you must use your resources wisely!" But once you throw in the reality that, uhhh, there's lots of people not just one, the novelty quickly loses its value, and you start getting into some weird politics.

    I mean, I'm a solo player-but a part of me wants to build a guild, just so I have control over what buildings to build. Because the actual building part sounds kind of fun.
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    aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,367 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    I'm a solo player-but a part of me wants to build a guild, just so I have control over what buildings to build. Because the actual building part sounds kind of fun.

    Well, then you should be able to build a Stronghold! However, Cryptic will make it extraordinarily difficult for you to max your Stronghold with this update. Actually you seem like you'd do quite well as a guild leader, officer or even just a member. You simply dont like "politics" or "drama". Believe me when I tell you ... you can achieve that. Your guild doesnt need to be very big.

    You are one of the (many) reasons why Cryptic needs to find a solution for small guilds...

    The solution: small guilds need handicaps based on the number of guildies a guild has. From one player guilds on up. An alternative... small guilds get small guild bonuses that might be slightly less powerful.

    TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
    No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
    Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    To be quite frank, I'm not 100% sure why each individual PC doesn't get their own stronghold, other than that the PVP aspect is obviously multiplayer centered.
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    torontodavetorontodave Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 992 Arc User
    Strongholds was a GUILD expansion.

    It's for guilds. If you don't have a guild, then don't worry about it. Play another part of the game.

    EP already stated that if you don't want to PVP, then you don't need the PVP structures.

    I myself am looking forward to the expansion. I can't wait to give my feedback. I haven't played anything on test, because I try to trust the devs vision of what's fun. If its not fun, then I'll post something constructive trying to make it more fun.
    NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments
    NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    The +Power structure is an amazing structure for either PVE or PVP. That's why people are dismayed.
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    aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,367 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    EP already stated that if you don't want to PVP, then you don't need the PVP structures.

    This is unfortunately quite untrue. The Barracks are a MAJOR boon (pun purely accidental:)) for both PvEers as well as PvPers)

    This is a big deal to many guilds and guild leaders that needs to be resolved before launch.

    TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
    No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
    Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
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    torontodavetorontodave Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 992 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    EP already stated that if you don't want to PVP, then you don't need the PVP structures.

    This is unfortunately quite untrue.

    source?

    http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9480453-neverwinter:-boon-structure-guide-dev-blog

    from what I can tell, the last two PVP buildings(Siege Workshop, Siege Smithy) are the ones that give the PVP rewards.

    the Barracks is a PVE building, and gives +8000 power ..

    So what is everyone so angry about?

    The only 'flaw' in the plan I can see is that there aren't enough plots for all the buildings, so hard choices must be made. Which is fine, because it ensures guilds have a differing mosaic of powers-instead of BIS.

    And even then, I predict Strongholds Expansions will add new plots and new buildings. So eventually you'll get the boons you want.

    Edit: New building ideas: Salt Mine, Whaling Dock (+Oil refinery), Sacred Grove (for nature types), Summoner's Circle(for demonic types), Dragon Hatchery, etc.
    NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments
    NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
    Thanks for all the fish.
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    torontodavetorontodave Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 992 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    truckula wrote: »
    Quick questions; Does the stronghold have a campfire, and access to the guild bank, and postal courier?

    ^^^ This is key. (And already answered: Yes, Yes, Yes)

    Idea: Active Companion 'Postal Owl' - You can retrieve/send items from your mail without going to a postbox.
    NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments
    NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
    Thanks for all the fish.
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    qexoticqexotic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 841 Arc User
    [
    from what I can tell, the last two PVP buildings(Siege Workshop, Siege Smithy) are the ones that give the PVP rewards.

    the Barracks is a PVE building, and gives +8000 power ..

    So what is everyone so angry about?
    To build level 3 of the Barracks you have to input/donate/use PVP currency. So no PVP, no +8000 power boon.

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    rgladiatorgladiato Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 313 Arc User
    qexotic wrote: »
    [
    from what I can tell, the last two PVP buildings(Siege Workshop, Siege Smithy) are the ones that give the PVP rewards.

    the Barracks is a PVE building, and gives +8000 power ..

    So what is everyone so angry about?
    To build level 3 of the Barracks you have to input/donate/use PVP currency. So no PVP, no +8000 power boon.

    While the +8000 power would be nice for PvE, do you think it will make much difference in a dungeon run? Maybe you burn down the boss a little faster but it's not a game changer for PvE. And if you really NEED that boon, team up with a few other PvE guilds and take turns farming each other.
    Nixon the TR
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    "+8000 power isn't a big deal for PvE"

    Ha ha ha-oh wow.

    Look, if you're not going to take the discussion seriously, just don't participate. It's super disingenous to make arguments like "well, 8000 power isn't a big deal" or "well, just team up with other PvE guilds and take turns farming each other" when that's precisely the thing people are saying they don't want to have to do in the first place.

    Just say "Oh, well, yeah-I guess PvE guilds will have to PvP after all" with "but I don't consider that a problem" or something.
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    torontodavetorontodave Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 992 Arc User
    qexotic wrote: »
    To build level 3 of the Barracks you have to input/donate/use PVP currency. So no PVP, no +8000 power boon.

    Now is that STRONGHOLDS specific siege pvp currency? Or just the Seals of Triumph from playing pvp?

    God forbid in order to get the higher level boons you have to play more than one aspect of the game. =/ </sarcasm>

    They should make rank 3 require FOUNDRY currency, I'd like to see the rage threads then. =P


    NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments
    NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
    Thanks for all the fish.
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    Well now you're just trolling.

    PvP is a mess, and people who don't like it don't want to have to play it. PvP has always been segmented; yes, you can get PvP gear and it's decent for PvE, but you've never been mandated to play PvP in order to get the best options for PvE. Now you do, and people don't like it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with those concerns.
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    beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    qexotic wrote: »
    To build level 3 of the Barracks you have to input/donate/use PVP currency. So no PVP, no +8000 power boon.
    Now is that STRONGHOLDS specific siege pvp currency? Or just the Seals of Triumph from playing pvp?

    God forbid in order to get the higher level boons you have to play more than one aspect of the game. =/ </sarcasm>

    They should make rank 3 require FOUNDRY currency, I'd like to see the rage threads then. =P

    It's the PvP-specific shard of power, which requires not just playing PvP, but winning it.

    And it's not really a high level boon. You need this item to unlock rank 3 of the Barracks building, which means building a Barracks at all is a poor choice if you're not going to be earning sufficient Conqueror shards to upgrade it. Which means that entire set of boons is pretty much closed off.

    Compounding that, most of the boon buildings have at least one "meh" thing about them. One gives a boost to Glory earnings, and apparently does NOT require investing anything you earn from PvPing, which is just ludicrous. The Barracks is universally useful all the way up. The structures aren't balanced enough for, "oh, you can just build something else" to be an acceptable answer.

    Btw, I wish there was a stronghold Foundry quest that gave shards too. Put the same restrictions on qualifying quests as Rhix has to avoid abuse; it's not perfect but it's something. And good lord, not a different kind of shard for Foundry, but another way of earning a global kind. A single "shard of power" would go so far to solving so many problem with Strongholds.

    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
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    twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    So not only is Mod 7 worthless for solo players, it's also fundamentally unfair to PVE only guilds?

    GG Cryptic. GG indeed.
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    Hey man, it's our own fault: the Preview Shard has been up for a while. Everyone should have been over there, complaining all the way back then!
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    aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,367 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    Hey man, it's our own fault: the Preview Shard has been up for a while. Everyone should have been over there, complaining all the way back then!

    Well, Im not sure how much we really knew back then. I can tell you the minute I got wind of this... I knew that this was another attempt to force the PvP side of the game onto everyone instead of building a mod BOTH PvEers and PvPers can enjoy EQUALLY.

    The crazy thing is.. they did build a Mod BOTH SIDES can enjoy EQUALLY..... with one exception, they gated (forced) it behind multiple currencies that force PvE and PvP focused GUILDS to play parts of the game they ALREADY DO NOT WANT TO PLAY.

    The Shard of Power should be JUST THAT, a SHARD OF POWER. PvE and PvP neutral.

    This would allow MORE TEAMWORK, not only within the guilds, but also amongst other guilds. MORE PEOPLE would join MORE GUILDS. And MOST IMPORTANTLY for the success of this mod, more people WILL MAKE FRIENDS AND STAY IN THEIR GUILDS. That CAMARADERIE is what makes being a member of a guild the most rewarding for so many of us, and is ironically what will make Cryptic the MOST MONEY, and for a MUCH, MUCH LONGER PERIOD OF TIME.


    Let the Structures offer PvE or PvP buffs (they already do), but make a single currency that all guilds of any shape or size can enjoy playing to aquire.

    The way it stands now, the devs have two global choices, ship a mod we all know they mislead the community about, or listen to those negatively affected in the playerbase (the majority) and do something about it.

    TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
    No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
    Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    While I fundamentally agree with your position, I feel you're overreacting and that, by virtue of overreacting, people will attempt to distance themselves from your position. A result thereof will be the dev team taking your position less seriously, because they don't feel the player base is speaking with "one voice" and they frankly have too much to do as is, and therefore you will be incapable of affecting meaningful change.

    That's sort of how politics works, though. You need enough energy to get people invested, but you get too rambunctious and it blows up in your face.
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    aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,367 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    ... by virtue of overreacting, people will attempt to distance themselves from your position.

    Thing is, I have seen this playerbase successfully band together and affect change in Neverwinter before where it was warranted. There have been many a poll I have done personally, and others have done in the last few years, that have spurred devs to think and act. We certainly need more people to stand up and be counted on this issue, and we are seeing that play out on the Preview shard and now on the main boards.

    I feel at least, that I'm not over reacting, just highlighting that some guilds have a sizable problem on their hands the day this mod goes live, and if that feels like an over-reach, then so be it. Most people know I am quite invested in seeing the solution that is best fitting to as many guilds in Neverwinter as possible. And I will stand for what I believe.

    I'm quite comfortable in my skin in requesting Cryptic to please re-evaluate this decision, and would simply like others who feel this way to speak up and get their voices heard.

    TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
    No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
    Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
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    darthsillydarthsilly Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6 Arc User
    heres my big problem with the whole thing. wtf does it have to do with D&D or neverwinter? how about instead of making this game a clone of every other crappy PW mmo, heck mmos in general, the game stays closer to the origin of the name at least.

    coming into neverwinter i was hyped about two things. one was the ability to play an mmo based on d&d. the other was how unlike other mmos it was supposed to be. no grinding for exp, quest based play experience, no guild dominance issues, etc

    guess what? the game has little or nothing to do with actually d&d beyond the names of things. fine, np. it was still a very playable game. the main storyline was interesting, progression was tied to that story (sort of), and playing it in the levelup to max, then pvp only style was optional.

    the tiamat expansion at least brought in a classic d&d feel to the new story. icewind did too (despite being nothing like the standard version of icewind dale really). then the travesty of the elemental expansion pretty much wrecked things. the game becomes a grind fest once you hit 60, play options became disgustingly limited (seriously? 3 dungeons for leveling?)
    the way strongholds is looking its going to be the final nail in turning neverwinter into a shoddy knockoff of itself. its already darn near as bad to play as the rest of perfect world's dreck. whats the point of playing a D&D skin on top of the standard mmo model they put out? none as far as i can tell.

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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    Strongholds actually date back super far in D&D lore, but they fell out of favor starting sometime in 3E. But here's MY objection:

    Strongholds were about adventuring parties, not guilds. I'd like to have my own stronghold as an individual character, manned by henchmen, not my guild.
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    rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,404 Arc User
    It is easy to get that, just have a solo guild. Then all the people in the stronghold are basically only working for you. But of course that means it will take forever to level anything in the stronghold, but....
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    Yeah ;___;
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    wyckedstudioswyckedstudios Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 36 Arc User
    You know...that ARE players that care about nothing but pvp. For two years, they've had to run all the pve junk, because all the boons were gated behind it. They did it because that had to, not because they wanted to. Did you hear them coming on here crying and scream how unfair it is that they had to do content they didn't want to do?

    Yes, there are some new boons that you need to pvp for. Deal with it, just like the pvpers dealt with everything else.
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