flyofavalonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 28Arc User
edited May 2015
Here is an idea. After 6 PvE mods and the announcement that the 8th mod is also a PvE mod, how about you guys be happy for the PvP community that is getting its first real mod ever.
As a PvP player did I want to do sharendar? Nope.
Did I want to do dread ring? Nope.
Did I want to kill remorez 73 times to get my gloves? Nope.
Did I want to grind dragons daily? Nope.
Did I want to do tiamat 90 times? Nope.
Did I want to lose my sanity grinding elemental quests? Nope.
But hey, the one mod I am excited for is PvP focused, so lets wreck it with bias feedback before it even has a chance to come out. If you make the PvP optional you will get another failed mod like icewind dale. Optional should be either participate and get rewards or dont and get nothing. Optional is not participate in half, get full rewards. None of the PvE mods allowed me to do half and get full rewards. Look forward to mod 8 and let the PvPers get something for once.
I like it! This may have huge potential if done properly. Kinda remind me of Fortress from Lineage 2. I hope that you do something similar. Give each zone (including the low lvl ones) a place where guilds can build and improve their strongholds with custom stuff as long as they manage to defend the area once a week or so.
I have a very bad feeling about this.
I predict mass migration from small and medium-sized guilds to few elitistic monstrosities, who'll monopolize whatever benefits you'll have from strongholds.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited May 2015
If they're going to do a PvP module, then go all-in and don't piggyback it onto something that PvE players have been clamoring for.
I'm not opposed to them doing things that cater to PvP players. But they need to not be foolish about it.
I sincerely hope that it's handled like IWD and being flagged for PvP as a guild stronghold is at your discretion. If you don't want to do it, skip it.
And the counterpoint, I sincerely hope that the solution to not wanting to be flagged for PvP (as a guild) is not to skip the entire module.
This is an idea here. Implementation? HMM.....Icewind! The solution for this already exists in part.
If a Guild Stronghold is not participating in PvP then there is not a red light fence around it. Settings can be adjusted by Guild Leaders only (Rank 6). Passing through the outer areas of Guild Stronghold that WANT PvP will flag you for Open World PvP. It'd be a matter of being careful which areas you visited, but it's possible.
Get flagged = accept PvP.
Avoid being flagged = PvE only.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
I'm hoping the actual features read better than the teaser. Most of what I got from that is 'non-optional PvP if you're in a guild who wants to work on a project', and 'only PvP guilds will have nice things', but I hope I'm wrong.
I read that the same way, to include that if you're a small guild you can probably forget it. No one in my guild does PvP, so I suspect we'll never be able to join the cool kids of Neverwinter.
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coolgeek357Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 91Arc User
edited May 2015
So how does the solo player or smaller guild fit into this expansion?
I can think of a lot of fun ways this could be done. For instance, Work for another guild as a man-at-arms for AD. Another idea is as a free-lance businessman (thief, robber, spy) While fights between guilds would be fun adding the dynamics of independents with their own agenda or shifting loyalty would be really cool.
I do hope these Strongholds don't follow STO's philosophy which was unjust to smaller fleets/guilds.
I heartily disagree. It wasn't unjust to smaller fleet/guilds. Just smaller fleet/guilds expected to be able achieve the same goals in the same time or less than the guilds that were larger.
I would like to see a blended approach. Take the DDO airship design in terms of unlock-able amenities with the power of NWOs foundry system to design the guild stronghold.
How do we unlock the amenities? Is this game F2P or P2W, I say in the spirit of F2P different amenities should be tied to different achievements. What do you do with all that currency stored up from lvling, how about some amenities requiring a deposit of X Blackdagger insignia as an example. These types of things would build a sense of community within the guild as people team together to upgrade a fireplace or open a training room, etc. Plus it would get some activity in some of the lvling areas as hoards of end-gamers return to farm and provide an avenue for new players by selling their earned zone currencies on AH.
The design can be similar to the current PVP achievement system and broken into categories. Maybe have a ladder for PVE achievements, a ladder for PVP achievements, a ladder for currency deposits, etc.
Do not put a requirement for guild population, etc. Small guilds should be able to unlock everything in time but I do not have a problem with big guilds being able to unlock faster using the power of more resources (do not force us to expand our ranks to include unfamiliars, I’ve been here far too long to return to recruiting, I have my guild mates, I like my guild mates, I don’t need drama).
Finally as mentioned, this game is F2P, so where is the revenue in this for PW. Well it’s the same as its always been, create expedite tokens or unlock tokens for sale with zen. If you want to unlock everything, guess what, you’ll be farming until mod 8, you want it next week… show me some plastic.
Yes there should be Boons included, the boons should be meaningful (especially for encouraging new players to join guild and participate within a guild). The boons should not be earth shattering, but they should be encouraging, maybe you have a way to get to a mailbox without returning to PE, expedite achievement of existing campaigns, gold drop bonus (since new players care about gold), access to some entry lvl assets like mounts or companions that would typically cost gold (but would still require AD to upgrade and of course zen market/AH/events will still provide better and custom alternatives as they do today.
LOVE that we're FINALLY getting guild strongholds. Love that progress is made by adding things like barracks and that we can be attacked by NPCs and PCs.
I REALLY DON'T like (to put it mildly) the idea that we will loose improvements that we have made based on those attacks. That would mean guard duty has to be scheduled to keep guild members online at all time of the day. Which is making the game more like work and less, very much less, like something fun to do on your spare time. I'm guessing of course as I do not hold any special information about the mechanics of how these attacks and defending the stronghold will work. But if someones job is then to defend and they fail that task and we loose progress made, that will be a cause for possible conflict. Which should be obvious to all that, that isn't a good thing to get in guilds as it tends to cause members to leave. So I hope Cryptic have thought of a way to either not having to defend the stronghold 24/7 with a 5 man team of level 70 all epic geared to keep the stronghold safe or to choose if the stronghold should be attackable or not or at least when so it can be scheduled like an event in the guild events list.
I'm going to be cautiously optimistic about this because if executed poorly there could be huge abuses and emotional turmoil. On STO you can't lose anything you put into your guild starbase (top tier build out costs about $1,200). But it sounds like you can on NW. Small guilds who don't have around the clock defenders are going to just see random PvE monsters burn their time, gold, and AD investment to the ground while they are sleeping? How discouraging. Even worse, I'm assuming with PvP, other guilds can burn your stuff to the ground and gain from your losses? For example, your guild loses 100% of your investment, while the attacking guild gains 25% in rewards to spend on their stronghold? Under this system there will be an immense incentive for mega guilds to pillage the server and pillage it repeatedly. I can see Cryptic severely tempted to implement this because that 75% loss difference is instant money in their pocket. Look at EVE. Forbes.com reported in Jan of last year that one epic battle cost between $300,000 to $500,000 USD of player loses. I'm going to assume AD will be used to a major degree in stronghold development, so the ZAX will take a nose dive this summer. If PvP pillaging causes huge AD losses (tear down a whole building for a few bricks) then the ZAX may go really low. It will be sad though to think some players could put in $100s to $1,000s into their strongholds and then the PvPers can destroy it all in an hour for $50 bucks and an aquamarine. Unfortunately if strongholds are implemented this way, will any small guilds build any strongholds at all? Probably not.
Hopefully PvPers can't attack guild banks?
My personal experience with one browser-based PvP game, was I spent months building a huge city of significant USD value, and overnight everything was taken from me by an enemy player and my hordes of auto defenders did nothing to protect it and were turned into salvage for the attacker. That was an immensely discouraging event and after that I never played the game much again. If Neverwinter goes this direction that will probably make PvPers very happy (small part of the population) and discourage many PvE people to remain off the game.
All of this makes me think of a personal life event. My home, while under construction, was vandalized. The thieves ripped out all the copper pipes. They did over $500 of damage for what I was told was about $20 to $50 of scrap value. This whole PvP guild stuff just sounds like a repeat of this and is very discouraging.
Stealing stuff is all fun and all . . . as long as you are not the victim.
Hopefully Cryptic gives this serious consideration before making their choices on how to implement Mod 7.
Ok it looks ... well poor for guys like me that has nothing to do with DONATE. i dont have anything worth to mention in gear and then comes donator and ****s everyone and everything on his way - thats how i see it. BAD BAD BAD you just keep this game worse not better. Do guild house guild skills and such but NOT PVP COMBAT its useless i dont like where this game is going.
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viperwitch23Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 205Arc User
I'm going to be cautiously optimistic about this because if executed poorly there could be huge abuses and emotional turmoil. On STO you can't lose anything you put into your guild starbase (top tier build out costs about $1,200). But it sounds like you can on NW. Small guilds who don't have around the clock defenders are going to just see random PvE monsters burn their time, gold, and AD investment to the ground while they are sleeping? How discouraging. Even worse, I'm assuming with PvP, other guilds can burn your stuff to the ground and gain from your losses? For example, your guild loses 100% of your investment, while the attacking guild gains 25% in rewards to spend on their stronghold? Under this system there will be an immense incentive for mega guilds to pillage the server and pillage it repeatedly. I can see Cryptic severely tempted to implement this because that 75% loss difference is instant money in their pocket. Look at EVE. Forbes.com reported in Jan of last year that one epic battle cost between $300,000 to $500,000 USD of player loses. I'm going to assume AD will be used to a major degree in stronghold development, so the ZAX will take a nose dive this summer. If PvP pillaging causes huge AD losses (tear down a whole building for a few bricks) then the ZAX may go really low. It will be sad though to think some players could put in $100s to $1,000s into their strongholds and then the PvPers can destroy it all in an hour for $50 bucks and an aquamarine. Unfortunately if strongholds are implemented this way, will any small guilds build any strongholds at all? Probably not.
Hopefully PvPers can't attack guild banks?
My personal experience with one browser-based PvP game, was I spent months building a huge city of significant USD value, and overnight everything was taken from me by an enemy player and my hordes of auto defenders did nothing to protect it and were turned into salvage for the attacker. That was an immensely discouraging event and after that I never played the game much again. If Neverwinter goes this direction that will probably make PvPers very happy (small part of the population) and discourage many PvE people to remain off the game.
All of this makes me think of a personal life event. My home, while under construction, was vandalized. The thieves ripped out all the copper pipes. They did over $500 of damage for what I was told was about $20 to $50 of scrap value. This whole PvP guild stuff just sounds like a repeat of this and is very discouraging.
Stealing stuff is all fun and all . . . as long as you are not the victim.
Hopefully Cryptic gives this serious consideration before making their choices on how to implement Mod 7.
OK You made great point. But here are some more points which saddens me.
Note: this isn't Doom and Gloom reply - I played on many games with similar system as we gonna get soon so I want to speak from experience.
1 game i used to play called Voyage century online. We had guild-owned city's here.
My server was totally dominated by 2 guild alliances TGE-The Great Empire and BBS-Brotherhood of the Black Sail. The owned every city that was conquerable and every one else was their cannon fodder.
I really do not like NeverWinter going down vco's road.
Yes, it is good to add new content. But it can lead to a disaster for many more players. MOD 6 seen many quit - how many we gonna loose to MOD 7?
Right now a guild can have 10-15 big players, 30-50 medium ones and 50-60 low ones.
10-15 are veterans who might have played since start and got best gears etc. Then 30-50 medium ones who play every day 1-2h to have fun and low end ones who play once in a while as they got other priority's.
So comes guild keep and all low end could see themselves kicked out to make room for better or for P2W players who can fight for the keep.
But it gets worse - if the guild's keep be a mandatory PVP Target without op-out option. So as someone else pointed out defending stops been fun and becomes a job.
As many of you know our game is full of bugs, cheats, exploits and 99% are used for PVP.
So the worst thing yet - guild of 100 players spends resources, time real and in-game money to build their castle the come 1 guy with god mode cheat or some bug or exploit - kills the lot of them. The runs a bulldozer over it packs the salvage and moves on to the next castle.
And honest, TOS-Obiding players would have little or no chance against bug and exploit users.
I won't give a dime to build castle with possibility of total loss to bug users
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viperwitch23Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 205Arc User
edited May 2015
Also if here be a system implemented that rewards a guild who destroyed/defeated most guild castles per week or per month we would almost certantly get a big guild which starts pillaging everything as someone already said and without op-out option it won't be worth anyone's time.
Best outcome is castle conquest for PVP guild who expect a loss and are OK with it.
May be a big castle for PVP-Only guild that is conqurable
And smaller, none-conquorable one for PVE Guild.
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viperwitch23Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 205Arc User
Here is an idea. After 6 PvE mods and the announcement that the 8th mod is also a PvE mod, how about you guys be happy for the PvP community that is getting its first real mod ever.
As a PvP player did I want to do sharendar? Nope.
Did I want to do dread ring? Nope.
Did I want to kill remorez 73 times to get my gloves? Nope.
Did I want to grind dragons daily? Nope.
Did I want to do tiamat 90 times? Nope.
Did I want to lose my sanity grinding elemental quests? Nope.
But hey, the one mod I am excited for is PvP focused, so lets wreck it with bias feedback before it even has a chance to come out. If you make the PvP optional you will get another failed mod like icewind dale. Optional should be either participate and get rewards or dont and get nothing. Optional is not participate in half, get full rewards. None of the PvE mods allowed me to do half and get full rewards. Look forward to mod 8 and let the PvPers get something for once.
It would be good without cheaters, bug users and exploiters.
"Once the keep has been secured, guilds will have to battle against the environment as well as other players to ensure they maintain control of their lands."
Not sure how the pvp part will be implemented, and therein lies my concern. Most players DO NOT PLAY or even like pvp, including myself.
Oh it is intended to have a pvp element as seen in the quote from the blog that I will post below , other guilds can come along and raid all your guilds hard work apparently which could be a huge concern, especially if it costs huge amounts of AD or zen to build up the stronghold , hopefully we will get more info soon.
Tis ok, you'll be able to collect all your lost goodies at the Zen reclaim store for...zen
Pvp should be optional alright but should be rewarding ! When i say rewarding i mean rewarding.
I dont care if some players do not enjoy it. Dont play it. Jist reward the people for doing it otherwise there will be no fun just wasted time.
And without pvp however i really want to see what you are supposed to do with strongholds...stables?? Beds where sleeping?? Fashion wardrobe?
Roleplaying?? Wow so much gameplay there.
It's not so much "What's in it for me?" as "What's in it for PVE?"
Well... if we get *really* lucky the PvP'er types will have better things to do than whine about each other/class imbalances/OP gear/the weather in Zone in a terribly butthurt manner.
Pvp should be optional alright but should be rewarding ! When i say rewarding i mean rewarding.
I dont care if some players do not enjoy it. Dont play it. Jist reward the people for doing it otherwise there will be no fun just wasted time.
And without pvp however i really want to see what you are supposed to do with strongholds...stables?? Beds where sleeping?? Fashion wardrobe?
Roleplaying?? Wow so much gameplay there.
Well...it would be fun to have a bunch of trolls or giants etc on the loose kinda like IWD when that Giant suddenly appears near the main road and everyone in the vicinity works together by choice to end the attack.
Well... if we get *really* lucky the PvP'er types will have better things to do than whine about each other/class imbalances/OP gear/the weather in Zone in a terribly butthurt manner.
Not exactly counting on it though.
Grin....cheers! i second that. But then again, my radionicly created vamp constructs specifically designed to siphon the throw off energy of all this whine will then have to be redesigned if this happens...sigh
Comments
As a PvP player did I want to do sharendar? Nope.
Did I want to do dread ring? Nope.
Did I want to kill remorez 73 times to get my gloves? Nope.
Did I want to grind dragons daily? Nope.
Did I want to do tiamat 90 times? Nope.
Did I want to lose my sanity grinding elemental quests? Nope.
But hey, the one mod I am excited for is PvP focused, so lets wreck it with bias feedback before it even has a chance to come out. If you make the PvP optional you will get another failed mod like icewind dale. Optional should be either participate and get rewards or dont and get nothing. Optional is not participate in half, get full rewards. None of the PvE mods allowed me to do half and get full rewards. Look forward to mod 8 and let the PvPers get something for once.
I predict mass migration from small and medium-sized guilds to few elitistic monstrosities, who'll monopolize whatever benefits you'll have from strongholds.
I'm not opposed to them doing things that cater to PvP players. But they need to not be foolish about it.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
This is an idea here. Implementation? HMM.....Icewind! The solution for this already exists in part.
If a Guild Stronghold is not participating in PvP then there is not a red light fence around it. Settings can be adjusted by Guild Leaders only (Rank 6). Passing through the outer areas of Guild Stronghold that WANT PvP will flag you for Open World PvP. It'd be a matter of being careful which areas you visited, but it's possible.
Get flagged = accept PvP.
Avoid being flagged = PvE only.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
I read that the same way, to include that if you're a small guild you can probably forget it. No one in my guild does PvP, so I suspect we'll never be able to join the cool kids of Neverwinter.
I can think of a lot of fun ways this could be done. For instance, Work for another guild as a man-at-arms for AD. Another idea is as a free-lance businessman (thief, robber, spy) While fights between guilds would be fun adding the dynamics of independents with their own agenda or shifting loyalty would be really cool.
I heartily disagree. It wasn't unjust to smaller fleet/guilds. Just smaller fleet/guilds expected to be able achieve the same goals in the same time or less than the guilds that were larger.
I've been playing MMOs since the original Neverwinter Nights on AOL in 1991 and from there to Everquest Beta in Feb 1999/March 1999 release (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwi...s_%28MMORPG%29 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest) and Everquest 2, WOW, etc...
:cool:
I REALLY DON'T like (to put it mildly) the idea that we will loose improvements that we have made based on those attacks. That would mean guard duty has to be scheduled to keep guild members online at all time of the day. Which is making the game more like work and less, very much less, like something fun to do on your spare time. I'm guessing of course as I do not hold any special information about the mechanics of how these attacks and defending the stronghold will work. But if someones job is then to defend and they fail that task and we loose progress made, that will be a cause for possible conflict. Which should be obvious to all that, that isn't a good thing to get in guilds as it tends to cause members to leave. So I hope Cryptic have thought of a way to either not having to defend the stronghold 24/7 with a 5 man team of level 70 all epic geared to keep the stronghold safe or to choose if the stronghold should be attackable or not or at least when so it can be scheduled like an event in the guild events list.
Recruitment: Neverwinter Online (spotlight)(wiki) - Star Trek Online Federation - Star Trek Online Klingon - Star Trek Online Romulan - Champions Online
Guild FAQs: Neverwinter FAQ - Star Trek FAQ - Champions FAQ ..........Facebook: Mattachine Guild
Hopefully PvPers can't attack guild banks?
My personal experience with one browser-based PvP game, was I spent months building a huge city of significant USD value, and overnight everything was taken from me by an enemy player and my hordes of auto defenders did nothing to protect it and were turned into salvage for the attacker. That was an immensely discouraging event and after that I never played the game much again. If Neverwinter goes this direction that will probably make PvPers very happy (small part of the population) and discourage many PvE people to remain off the game.
All of this makes me think of a personal life event. My home, while under construction, was vandalized. The thieves ripped out all the copper pipes. They did over $500 of damage for what I was told was about $20 to $50 of scrap value. This whole PvP guild stuff just sounds like a repeat of this and is very discouraging.
Stealing stuff is all fun and all . . . as long as you are not the victim.
Hopefully Cryptic gives this serious consideration before making their choices on how to implement Mod 7.
OK You made great point. But here are some more points which saddens me.
Note: this isn't Doom and Gloom reply - I played on many games with similar system as we gonna get soon so I want to speak from experience.
1 game i used to play called Voyage century online. We had guild-owned city's here.
My server was totally dominated by 2 guild alliances TGE-The Great Empire and BBS-Brotherhood of the Black Sail. The owned every city that was conquerable and every one else was their cannon fodder.
I really do not like NeverWinter going down vco's road.
Yes, it is good to add new content. But it can lead to a disaster for many more players. MOD 6 seen many quit - how many we gonna loose to MOD 7?
Right now a guild can have 10-15 big players, 30-50 medium ones and 50-60 low ones.
10-15 are veterans who might have played since start and got best gears etc. Then 30-50 medium ones who play every day 1-2h to have fun and low end ones who play once in a while as they got other priority's.
So comes guild keep and all low end could see themselves kicked out to make room for better or for P2W players who can fight for the keep.
But it gets worse - if the guild's keep be a mandatory PVP Target without op-out option. So as someone else pointed out defending stops been fun and becomes a job.
As many of you know our game is full of bugs, cheats, exploits and 99% are used for PVP.
So the worst thing yet - guild of 100 players spends resources, time real and in-game money to build their castle the come 1 guy with god mode cheat or some bug or exploit - kills the lot of them. The runs a bulldozer over it packs the salvage and moves on to the next castle.
And honest, TOS-Obiding players would have little or no chance against bug and exploit users.
I won't give a dime to build castle with possibility of total loss to bug users
Best outcome is castle conquest for PVP guild who expect a loss and are OK with it.
May be a big castle for PVP-Only guild that is conqurable
And smaller, none-conquorable one for PVE Guild.
It would be good without cheaters, bug users and exploiters.
it is the same old team minus some people.
Exactly. but I also hope that the smaller guilds can still participate in the majority of the new content without too much hassle
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Ditto...and ditto
Tis ok, you'll be able to collect all your lost goodies at the Zen reclaim store for...zen
Yes indeed...us PVE'ers beam with glee lol mooooooo
When is the summer?? i mean which month?
I dont care if some players do not enjoy it. Dont play it. Jist reward the people for doing it otherwise there will be no fun just wasted time.
And without pvp however i really want to see what you are supposed to do with strongholds...stables?? Beds where sleeping?? Fashion wardrobe?
Roleplaying?? Wow so much gameplay there.
Well... if we get *really* lucky the PvP'er types will have better things to do than whine about each other/class imbalances/OP gear/the weather in Zone in a terribly butthurt manner.
Not exactly counting on it though.
Well...it would be fun to have a bunch of trolls or giants etc on the loose kinda like IWD when that Giant suddenly appears near the main road and everyone in the vicinity works together by choice to end the attack.
Grin....cheers! i second that. But then again, my radionicly created vamp constructs specifically designed to siphon the throw off energy of all this whine will then have to be redesigned if this happens...sigh