Or third party sales... Last time I checked it was like $10 per million of AD? Well you can pay $10 for 1M AD, go BUY 2000 zen and you just got your artifact item what, half off?
Or they turn to botting and use dragon horde enchants... Bound RP but use it and bam free item....
I think its pretty clear there is a BOT issue in this game since they made fixes to portals... Also all the 99 stacks of RP/echants? I mean cmon.... who really saves all their Peridots to post 10 stacks of x99 on the AH? Noone I know....
I have put all my peridot stacks for sale in the AH - most were farmed by myself some months ago. I had them stocked for later use, but I expected (and still expect) a large inflation of RP points with Mod 6 (more aquamarines, rank 5 enchantments, ...). At the same time I "feared" that the anouncement of changes in the refinement system would make my stacks obsolete and worthless over night, so I tried to sell them now.
So not every stack in AH has to be a (botted) stack.
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vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited February 2015
nice thread. i agree with magenubbie, i too dont understand almost everything how this game is managed. We all more or less patiently wait for months if cryptic turn the wheel. module 6 is presented as big module, so it will be now or never. there must be possibility gain refinements through dungeons and pvping. if not its sure that this game is caring only to bring constant stream of newbies, to give them few months pve game, veterans should rather go play another game, here is nothing for them
I have put all my peridot stacks for sale in the AH - most were farmed by myself some months ago. I had them stocked for later use, but I expected (and still expect) a large inflation of RP points with Mod 6 (more aquamarines, rank 5 enchantments, ...). At the same time I "feared" that the anouncement of changes in the refinement system would make my stacks obsolete and worthless over night, so I tried to sell them now.
So not every stack in AH has to be a (botted) stack.
Yes but how many stacks did you put up? I mean I bought like 15 million RP which is ALOT of stacks (300 stacks) where do you think those came from?
Also I would buy them at like 30 stacks at a time, all from the same guy? Who the next day would post another 30? That doesnt add up to some guy who farmed them a while ago for later use.
nice thread. i agree with magenubbie, i too dont understand almost everything how this game is managed. We all more or less patiently wait for months if cryptic turn the wheel. module 6 is presented as big module, so it will be now or never. there must be possibility gain refinements through dungeons and pvping. if not its sure that this game is caring only to bring constant stream of newbies, to give them few months pve game, veterans should rather go play another game, here is nothing for them
Well that this is where the DEV team should be using the forums. There are really alot of great feedback and ideas but they never look at our feedback!
People have been CRYING OUT for pvp maps since open beta! Have been BEGGING for Foundry PVP since BETA!
They dont listen.
People post certain things are OP in game and exactly how to balance them. Instead, they just nerf it (like Tenebrous for example). There was a 200 page thread about Tenebrous a long time ago, I posted nearly everyday. Many people had great ideas on how to balance the enchant. They nerfed it to HAMSTER and the only reason people are starting to look at them again is the HP is scaling so high that it CAN pay off again.
But back when players were lucky to have 35k HP (I mean fully HP specced for 35k) when they nerfed Tenebrous, it was garbage.
There are many ways to increase the RP earning. The big question: Does Cryptic/PWE want it?
I mean, we can discuss the greatest ideas to earn RP but in the end it is only a discussion of how much is enough to satisfy the players AND the producer?
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
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vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited February 2015
yeah, i posted it elsewhere, but it fits here so i repost my idea. what about refinement cost for legendary things is cheaper with every legendary thing on the account? cryptic still can get some love from refinement system per player and players can get their alts back in the game. spend more time in the game and spend more money. its win for everybody .... can you hear me cryptic???
too sad, what i saw at last liveshow, gentleman crush is really sympathic guy for me, but we will never see mans that make crucial decisions on the game
Agreed about Dg Chests,Daily and so on...you can also add,increase the drop rate by using hoards,bound only the objects that you get in the foundry,so you can start to open a serious economy with RP stuff as well,and maybe reduce the RP needed for any artifact.
Please get the thread back on topic. The topic is not about the need for the ZAX--that's extraneous. The thread is about how to improve the RP system.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2015
It's tough to continue the discussion without any feedback from the devs. A lot of really great ideas have been put out there, we just have no idea how feasible anything is. Or even what their overall opinion on the RP system is.
Please get the thread back on topic. The topic is not about the need for the ZAX--that's extraneous. The thread is about how to improve the RP system.
As ironzerg said, the biggest point is ... no return from dev, i mean, i read somewhere around 3-4 week's ago that there weren't plan to work on RP system for V6 (it was before previous available). So what the statut. their is already enough purpose to have at least a little feed back, but yet not on plan. we can see when compare with other previous that their is really poor return from player. the first reason probably the RP system, the second is the stat change. There is no magical purpose that can be done.
The RP need VS the possiblity to get them is nowhere a reasonable point both in price term and time needed. Any system that up RP collect or drop the needed RP is good because it necessarly better than what is actually. So the only think is to get this post UP until DEV make a statut on that
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited February 2015
This is still the top issue for many of us and isnt addressed at all. I would prefer NO artifact system and go back to simply playing a game , getting gear while playing with your friends.
I would appreciate any response even if its " , NO , go suck a egg" at least, so I can officially start looking for other ALT friendly game instead. (caugh , skyforge is going to allow you to swap any toon, anywhere, anytime you want it appears!)
I simply am a player who grows very bored playing one class only. I only enjoy mmos that allow some semblance of allowing you to get multiple characters geared enough to play the game on each.
RP is a mindless, boring grind, that doesn't require any sort of group to get.
You have virtually made this game into a single player mode.
Dragon hoards should be a bonus! Not the primary way to earn RP, thats how it was with all of your other items. I never even felt the need to get the other bonus enchants. Its sad that up to Mod 3, I was promoting this game due to how friendly your alt system was. If someone asks me what game Im playing now and they think it would be fun to play, I tell them to run away.. quickly. Ill stick with you till mod 6, but if your going to give us this crappy artifact system, please provide a way to have a more reasonable grind system, at least up to epic, like the other enchants/artifacts were.
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vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited February 2015
for me too, i honestly dont expect to stop play this game at all. i love my HR and GF too much to stop play, but Cryptic please - players are ready to buy new races, modules packs, simply some creative things, but definitely not blood rubies, Dont be too Greedy, show respect, show creativity and players will support
I keep chewing on this and there really isnt any easy answer.
Sure the MOST ideal would be to have RP drop from dungeons and mobs WITHOUT the need for a Dragon Hoard enchant. Ontop of that, MASSIVELY increasing the reward (RP) on the Blue and Epic items you put INTO them.
I mean what it comes down to is the best way to get RP should be PLAYING the game. This is the issue with RP across the board for ALL enchants and what not. When its more beneficial for a bot to farm rank 3 enchants to use for artifacts, you know there is a problem.
The EXP ->Rp system can work great but its not going to full bridge the gap. With what was announced as lvl 80 artifact equipment (estimated to need around 14+ million RP per piece) and then Artifacts themselves going to lvl 120 now (which will also add about another 6MIL RP there)
It just seems SO SO SO silly how much RP is needed for these things.
So in an IDEAL world, where artifacts and arti-equip exists (which it wouldnt in an ideal world but stay with me on this one) I would like to see real enchants/gear offer REAL RP.
What I mean is this.
When I run a dungeon and get an epic item. Let say I was doing Tiamat and got my Draconic Templar Gloves (again). I should be able to use this epic item and it should get me a GOOD amount of RP. I mean thats the goal right?
How much RP? I dunno. How would 100,000 RP suffice? This would mean I need ~ 46 of these gloves to get this item to max level. Seems pretty reasonable to me. I mean thats 46 Tiamats, or 46 dungeon runs of something else and I have to cannibalize EACH piece of gear I get to get this to orange. The only catch is that these items are bound on equip and most of them cost only like 10-20k AD. So people would just go BUY them off the AH.
So now we have a new problem, we cant make them 100k because people will just buy epics off the AH. So I dont think you can get around this issue.
So maybe we just "balance" this out by giving these items MORE RP than the 1200 or so you get now. What if you get like 2x its "salvage" value in RP.
This puts most epic items in the 8-16k RP range, atleast its a step in the right direction. (all this is based on lvl 60 values and would need to be increased if items go to lvl 80 now)
Well what about RP stones.... Maybe those can drop from dungeons too! This can make up the difference we dont get on epics.
Ok great, however youll need to 5x all the RP stones and make an epic RP stone drop with EVERY DD.
Greens (peridots/resonance stones) should drop off mobs just like rank 3s and 4s do.
AquaMarines/Resonance Stones should drop JUST like Blue Gear
Black Opals should drop off EVERY DD chest.
Now your running a dungeon, lets say you get 4 peridots to drop and 2 aquamarines along with 1 black opal as well as 1 epic item.
well 4 peridots would NOW be 10k RP. 2 Aqua is 10k RP. 1 Opal is 50k RP and 1 epic item lets say you can RP it for... 15k
You just made 85k RP off a dungeon run. Boom. NOW RP is attainable in game.
But take a step back and look what you needed to do to make that happen:
1) Peridots and Aquamarines drop like CANDY WITHOUT dragon Hoard enchants (would be even greater WITH)
2) Black Opal dropped of DD chest
3) Epic item from DD Chest salavaged.
4) ALL RP was SIGNIFICANTLY increased!
Now lets say you did all this and got 85k RP EACH dungeon run, and lets say it only took 20 minutes to do that.
4,600,000 / 85,000 = 54 dungeon runs for ONE orange item. This would mean 200 dungeon runs needed for all orange items. This STILL seems excessive to me TBH......
But again, all this would be a STEP in the right direction.
THIS is where you can THEN add blood rubies which could sell and give 250k RP each and sell for like 400-500 zen.
But look at ALL the changed need to make this a viable system. I just dont see it happening.
Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment: There is already plenty of RP dropping, in the form of blue/green gear. If you can't be bothered to pick it up and stuff it into your artifact gear, how is this Cryptic's problem? You want 10,000 RP from the end chest of a dungeon? You EASILY bypass 10,000 RP in blue/green gear by running through it and not picking any of it up.
I would advocate, instead of having more RP stones dropping in the world, that they make it easier to refine blue/green gear into our arti gear. Let's have an auto-loot, auto-identify and auto-refine feature. Something like: we designate one of our artifact items as the "primary" artifact item into which blue/green gear gets auto-refined into, and as long as we have ID scrolls in our bag, whatever we run over, it's picked up (with an auto-loot roll), auto-ID'ed with a scroll and auto-refined into the primary artifact item. If we run out of scrolls, or if the primary item gets filled up, then the loot gets dropped into our bag normally, like now. The auto-refine feature can also be disabled if we want to collect the loot for another purpose other than refining (e.g. transmutes or to equip it). Plus, blue/green gear can't be botted very effectively, unlike RP stones.
Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment: There is already plenty of RP dropping, in the form of blue/green gear. If you can't be bothered to pick it up and stuff it into your artifact gear, how is this Cryptic's problem?
Problem is perhaps the wrong word but the main reason I ignore most gear for RP is due the the clunky interface, i.e. Cryptics design. It's both painful to use and the time it takes to ID and refine further devalues the meagre RP you get from the gear from a cost benefit perspective, where in this case the cost is time.
Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment: There is already plenty of RP dropping, in the form of blue/green gear. If you can't be bothered to pick it up and stuff it into your artifact gear, how is this Cryptic's problem? You want 10,000 RP from the end chest of a dungeon? You EASILY bypass 10,000 RP in blue/green gear by running through it and not picking any of it up.
I would advocate, instead of having more RP stones dropping in the world, that they make it easier to refine blue/green gear into our arti gear. Let's have an auto-loot, auto-identify and auto-refine feature. Something like: we designate one of our artifact items as the "primary" artifact item into which blue/green gear gets auto-refined into, and as long as we have ID scrolls in our bag, whatever we run over, it's picked up (with an auto-loot roll), auto-ID'ed with a scroll and auto-refined into the primary artifact item. If we run out of scrolls, or if the primary item gets filled up, then the loot gets dropped into our bag normally, like now. The auto-refine feature can also be disabled if we want to collect the loot for another purpose other than refining (e.g. transmutes or to equip it). Plus, blue/green gear can't be botted very effectively, unlike RP stones.
You need 46,000 greens for an orange.
You need 15,333 Blues for an orange.
Even if you passed up 20 greens and 10 blues thats 5,000 RP. Lets say the average person has passed that up 100 times - call that 100 different play sessions..... again 20 greens, 10 blues.
Thats ONLY 50k RP TOTAL. Thats not even 1/6th of ONE level at lvl 55. 1/6th. You need to do that 600 times (20 greens and 10 blues) to get ONE level.
This is going nowhere.... FAST.
If you want to play devils advocate FOR Cryptic they would just use some blanket statement like "Well we know many players that have achieved Orange gear" But I would bet they dont know HOW they achieved it.
Or something like:
"I am not sure what the estimates are on leveling up all of the artifact gear, but the main way that we are trying to make it easier for people is by running the bonus weekends (2x Refinement) as much as possible. Those events not only help keep people logging into the game, but they help ease the RP progression."
Or
"I can assure you after looking at some eastern-market MMOs, the RP system is far from the worst thing ever in the history of MMOs. While it might not be the perfect system, it is definitely an improvement over the old system that we had originally implemented."
These are actual responses.
They have no clue how people are playing their game, I seriously question if they have a system in place to track what people are actually buying in the game. I know they can track which zen item is the most popular, but do they know when a person buys zen what they actually spend it on?
The only "Devils Advocate" that can be made here is if someone gets a bunch of dragon Hoard enchants and goes off for 4-5 hours to farm with TWO sets of gear using those enchants (to reset the CD).
So if thats all you want to do all day everyday you play, you can probably save up RP you get from grinding RP in a cave somewhere and THEN wait for Double RP - which is what the Reddit AMA said they were trying to keep doing, and MAYBE you can get 2 or 3 Orange pieces of gear.
But then you have to ask, is this how you want to force people to play your game? Running two sets of gear swapping out those enchants, doing nothing but grinding mobs over and over for a bunch of crappy whites/greens and occasional Blues?
This is EXACLTY why we have bots, because thats what bots do - mindlessly grind. Players should PLAY the game and get RP.
This is exactly why this thread was made. I mean it IS possible to get Orange gear we are not saying its not possible. It is. Its just not how you should be forced to play. Grind the same thing over and over, swapping out gear, no challenge, no fun, and save everything you get for the next double RP weekend.
This is exactly why this thread was made. I mean it IS possible to get Orange gear we are not saying its not possible. It is. Its just not how you should be forced to play. Grind the same thing over and over, swapping out gear, no challenge, no fun, and save everything you get for the next double RP weekend.
Forget it. Don't even try. You are talking to a person who expects to never ever be BIS for a variety of reasons.
That really is the key in all this. And while I prefer the EXP>RP idea over any other idea I've seen so far, I'll go with anything that improves the situation.
That can be solved easily enough by a system already in place. Right now if I do an Epic CT run, I have my choice of rewards out of 3 options from the chest. Why not just add a BoA stone worth a reasonable amount of RP to it, equal to the value of the dungeon? Simple, botproof, and it would entice people to run dungeons again, which is what this game should be about.
Only your numbers are a bit off for this to work. 46 runs to get 1 item to legendary is way too easy if it's a guaranteed reward. 50 seems more reasonable provided there's a reasonable chance, say 2 in 10 to get that reward as an option. It's legendary and it has to remain hard work to obtain. Not to mention you'll need time to farm some AD to pay for the upgrades along the way. I'm sure the devs can come to a reasonable amount of runs required.
Alternatively, you can increase the RP you can get from BoP epic drops and give people a choice to make their reward BoP at the chest. A bit more complicated, but the same result.
Same thing can be done to the foundry chests, although the foundry would require an algorythm to calculate how many RP a foundry quest is worth. This calculation would have to include estimated playing time, amount of encounters placed, number of maps used, the no of assets etc. It takes a bit of math, but it would greatly increase the foundry value without growing interest of 3rd parties.
Both variations can be used for campaign lair chests (with lower value stones than full dungeons of course, perhaps similar to the average foundry chest) as well and would greatly increase the replay value of the sharanderp and Dread Ring campaigns, which in turn increases the value and desirability of a campaign daily-reset scroll from the CS.
More profit, more people actually playing every aspect of the game, everybody wins, nobody loses. Simple.
Hmmm interesting. I like that idea. You can do this with EVERY chest in the game for end game: Offer multiple Choices.
So if this is the case, what they really need to do is increase the amount of RP on each RP stone about 5-10x. Or you can just double them all and put a blood ruby in the DD chests as AN option. Thats 100k RP right there. BOOM.
I like the choice idea. So you need to run 46 dungeons for ONE orange item. That still seems pretty rough to me TBH....
In an ideal situation it should be more like 35ish. for EACH piece. But thats just me.
I mean any of these options are available to them.
EXP->RP
Increase RP on all stones
Give more RP stones for the game like dailies/weekly/DD chests
reduce the RP needed for items (why doesnt the arti-eqip track the same EXP requirements as players?)
- I mean going from lvl 60-61 according to PTR will take like 140k EXP? So why does it take like 400k RP going from Artifact Item lvl 59-60?
If you made everything track PLAYER EXP (meaning the RP required would = the SAME amount of EXP for that level) You would only need about 1 million RP to get an Orange Item.
Well NOW the system is actually quite balanced IMO.
You can go buy 150k RP for $20 on the zen store. That would be MANY levels worth. You could use blues/greens/epics.
I mean shoot. Maybe THATS the solution right there. Just adjust the RP required for each level to be EQUAL to w.e the EXP requirement is. that would lower the costs to UNDER 1 Mil RP to get to 60 and then you wouldnt really need to change much about the game.
Although I would still like to see things handed out from PLAYING the game rather than now getting dragon hoard enchants to go farm RP. Just saying.
But atleast this would now be VIABLE to play to get gear at 1/4th the COST.
This is EXACLTY why we have bots, because thats what bots do - mindlessly grind. Players should PLAY the game and get RP.
You do get RP, you just ignore most of it, along with most players, in part because players only are looking for the "easy" RP stones, also in part because the RP interface makes it cumbersome currently to refine blue/green gear.
Go kill a couple of mobs in Dread Ring or anywhere, you will get 1000 RP easy and it will take you all of 10 seconds, no cooldown. Most of that will be blue/green gear, though. That's why I think there ought to be an auto-loot, auto-identify, and auto-refine option for blue/green gear, so that players can more easily utilize the RP that does actually drop during normal play, not during mindless grinding and farming.
Even if you passed up 20 greens and 10 blues thats 5,000 RP. Lets say the average person has passed that up 100 times - call that 100 different play sessions..... again 20 greens, 10 blues.
Thats ONLY 50k RP TOTAL. Thats not even 1/6th of ONE level at lvl 55. 1/6th. You need to do that 600 times (20 greens and 10 blues) to get ONE level.
This is going nowhere.... FAST.
First, 20 greens and 10 blues is between 5,000 and 10,000 RP, depending on the quality of the gear.
Second, count the number of items that drop during a typical dungeon run, any dungeon run. I guarantee that it is more than 30, way more than 30. The only reason more people don't pick them all up is because it's a pain to wade through loot rolls and due to lack of bag space. But otherwise it takes minimal extra work than what you would ordinarily be doing. Think of how much RP you could get from Castle Never if you really could pick up ALL the loot and refine it ALL into your gear from killing ALL the mobs there. It's way more than 10,000 RP. An auto-loot, auto-identify, auto-refine feature would eliminate this problem.
That's why I think there ought to be an auto-loot, auto-identify, and auto-refine option for blue/green gear, so that players can more easily utilize the RP that does actually drop during normal play, not during mindless grinding and farming.
I agree in principle. We've got multiple grindy processes stacked on top of each other. There should only be one and that involves directly playing the game. Either the conversion of items into RP or the refining of RP needs to a largely passive process involving minimnal player input.
The only reason my artifact gear is purple despite my refusal to buy RP from the AH is because this is what I do. Unfortunately I'm not nearly as lucky as your calculations would indicate. If I get 10k a day I consider myself effing lucky. Most of the time it's a lot less. Granted, I haven't run CN in ages. Perhaps it would be worth revisiting it, but the game keeps demanding I do more dailies. So people don't have that much time to do 10 runs a day. Anyway, that still doesn't solve the problem at hand. Even if I managed to get 20k a day (not too likely considering I can only play during the evenings and a little during weekends) it would still be an impossible task to get everything to legendary with the increased level cap.
You would be able to do more fun things if you didn't have to stop and pick up everything and then manually identify them all and then drag the items one by one into your gear. I don't count how much I get in a day, but I too pick up everything, I haven't bought RP stones from the AH, and I only have one item left to get to purple and it is at rank 32 right now.
And the best part about the auto-loot, auto-identify, auto-refine idea is that even if Cryptic throws more dailies at us, those mobs from those dailies also drop blue/green gear and so it also promotes RP progress. So you don't feel as much like you are missing out on doing "more worthwhile" stuff by doing dailies.
And yes I do consider 7xLegendary to be a huge luxury that ought to take a long time, unless you pay money to speed it up.
Comments
I have put all my peridot stacks for sale in the AH - most were farmed by myself some months ago. I had them stocked for later use, but I expected (and still expect) a large inflation of RP points with Mod 6 (more aquamarines, rank 5 enchantments, ...). At the same time I "feared" that the anouncement of changes in the refinement system would make my stacks obsolete and worthless over night, so I tried to sell them now.
So not every stack in AH has to be a (botted) stack.
Yes but how many stacks did you put up? I mean I bought like 15 million RP which is ALOT of stacks (300 stacks) where do you think those came from?
Also I would buy them at like 30 stacks at a time, all from the same guy? Who the next day would post another 30? That doesnt add up to some guy who farmed them a while ago for later use.
Just sayin.
Well that this is where the DEV team should be using the forums. There are really alot of great feedback and ideas but they never look at our feedback!
People have been CRYING OUT for pvp maps since open beta! Have been BEGGING for Foundry PVP since BETA!
They dont listen.
People post certain things are OP in game and exactly how to balance them. Instead, they just nerf it (like Tenebrous for example). There was a 200 page thread about Tenebrous a long time ago, I posted nearly everyday. Many people had great ideas on how to balance the enchant. They nerfed it to HAMSTER and the only reason people are starting to look at them again is the HP is scaling so high that it CAN pay off again.
But back when players were lucky to have 35k HP (I mean fully HP specced for 35k) when they nerfed Tenebrous, it was garbage.
I mean, we can discuss the greatest ideas to earn RP but in the end it is only a discussion of how much is enough to satisfy the players AND the producer?
too sad, what i saw at last liveshow, gentleman crush is really sympathic guy for me, but we will never see mans that make crucial decisions on the game
It is, IIRC.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
As ironzerg said, the biggest point is ... no return from dev, i mean, i read somewhere around 3-4 week's ago that there weren't plan to work on RP system for V6 (it was before previous available). So what the statut. their is already enough purpose to have at least a little feed back, but yet not on plan. we can see when compare with other previous that their is really poor return from player. the first reason probably the RP system, the second is the stat change. There is no magical purpose that can be done.
The RP need VS the possiblity to get them is nowhere a reasonable point both in price term and time needed. Any system that up RP collect or drop the needed RP is good because it necessarly better than what is actually. So the only think is to get this post UP until DEV make a statut on that
I would appreciate any response even if its " , NO , go suck a egg" at least, so I can officially start looking for other ALT friendly game instead. (caugh , skyforge is going to allow you to swap any toon, anywhere, anytime you want it appears!)
I simply am a player who grows very bored playing one class only. I only enjoy mmos that allow some semblance of allowing you to get multiple characters geared enough to play the game on each.
RP is a mindless, boring grind, that doesn't require any sort of group to get.
You have virtually made this game into a single player mode.
Dragon hoards should be a bonus! Not the primary way to earn RP, thats how it was with all of your other items. I never even felt the need to get the other bonus enchants. Its sad that up to Mod 3, I was promoting this game due to how friendly your alt system was. If someone asks me what game Im playing now and they think it would be fun to play, I tell them to run away.. quickly. Ill stick with you till mod 6, but if your going to give us this crappy artifact system, please provide a way to have a more reasonable grind system, at least up to epic, like the other enchants/artifacts were.
I keep chewing on this and there really isnt any easy answer.
Sure the MOST ideal would be to have RP drop from dungeons and mobs WITHOUT the need for a Dragon Hoard enchant. Ontop of that, MASSIVELY increasing the reward (RP) on the Blue and Epic items you put INTO them.
I mean what it comes down to is the best way to get RP should be PLAYING the game. This is the issue with RP across the board for ALL enchants and what not. When its more beneficial for a bot to farm rank 3 enchants to use for artifacts, you know there is a problem.
The EXP ->Rp system can work great but its not going to full bridge the gap. With what was announced as lvl 80 artifact equipment (estimated to need around 14+ million RP per piece) and then Artifacts themselves going to lvl 120 now (which will also add about another 6MIL RP there)
It just seems SO SO SO silly how much RP is needed for these things.
So in an IDEAL world, where artifacts and arti-equip exists (which it wouldnt in an ideal world but stay with me on this one) I would like to see real enchants/gear offer REAL RP.
What I mean is this.
When I run a dungeon and get an epic item. Let say I was doing Tiamat and got my Draconic Templar Gloves (again). I should be able to use this epic item and it should get me a GOOD amount of RP. I mean thats the goal right?
How much RP? I dunno. How would 100,000 RP suffice? This would mean I need ~ 46 of these gloves to get this item to max level. Seems pretty reasonable to me. I mean thats 46 Tiamats, or 46 dungeon runs of something else and I have to cannibalize EACH piece of gear I get to get this to orange. The only catch is that these items are bound on equip and most of them cost only like 10-20k AD. So people would just go BUY them off the AH.
So now we have a new problem, we cant make them 100k because people will just buy epics off the AH. So I dont think you can get around this issue.
So maybe we just "balance" this out by giving these items MORE RP than the 1200 or so you get now. What if you get like 2x its "salvage" value in RP.
This puts most epic items in the 8-16k RP range, atleast its a step in the right direction. (all this is based on lvl 60 values and would need to be increased if items go to lvl 80 now)
Well what about RP stones.... Maybe those can drop from dungeons too! This can make up the difference we dont get on epics.
Ok great, however youll need to 5x all the RP stones and make an epic RP stone drop with EVERY DD.
Greens (peridots/resonance stones) should drop off mobs just like rank 3s and 4s do.
AquaMarines/Resonance Stones should drop JUST like Blue Gear
Black Opals should drop off EVERY DD chest.
Now your running a dungeon, lets say you get 4 peridots to drop and 2 aquamarines along with 1 black opal as well as 1 epic item.
well 4 peridots would NOW be 10k RP. 2 Aqua is 10k RP. 1 Opal is 50k RP and 1 epic item lets say you can RP it for... 15k
You just made 85k RP off a dungeon run. Boom. NOW RP is attainable in game.
But take a step back and look what you needed to do to make that happen:
1) Peridots and Aquamarines drop like CANDY WITHOUT dragon Hoard enchants (would be even greater WITH)
2) Black Opal dropped of DD chest
3) Epic item from DD Chest salavaged.
4) ALL RP was SIGNIFICANTLY increased!
Now lets say you did all this and got 85k RP EACH dungeon run, and lets say it only took 20 minutes to do that.
4,600,000 / 85,000 = 54 dungeon runs for ONE orange item. This would mean 200 dungeon runs needed for all orange items. This STILL seems excessive to me TBH......
But again, all this would be a STEP in the right direction.
THIS is where you can THEN add blood rubies which could sell and give 250k RP each and sell for like 400-500 zen.
But look at ALL the changed need to make this a viable system. I just dont see it happening.
I would advocate, instead of having more RP stones dropping in the world, that they make it easier to refine blue/green gear into our arti gear. Let's have an auto-loot, auto-identify and auto-refine feature. Something like: we designate one of our artifact items as the "primary" artifact item into which blue/green gear gets auto-refined into, and as long as we have ID scrolls in our bag, whatever we run over, it's picked up (with an auto-loot roll), auto-ID'ed with a scroll and auto-refined into the primary artifact item. If we run out of scrolls, or if the primary item gets filled up, then the loot gets dropped into our bag normally, like now. The auto-refine feature can also be disabled if we want to collect the loot for another purpose other than refining (e.g. transmutes or to equip it). Plus, blue/green gear can't be botted very effectively, unlike RP stones.
Problem is perhaps the wrong word but the main reason I ignore most gear for RP is due the the clunky interface, i.e. Cryptics design. It's both painful to use and the time it takes to ID and refine further devalues the meagre RP you get from the gear from a cost benefit perspective, where in this case the cost is time.
You need 46,000 greens for an orange.
You need 15,333 Blues for an orange.
Even if you passed up 20 greens and 10 blues thats 5,000 RP. Lets say the average person has passed that up 100 times - call that 100 different play sessions..... again 20 greens, 10 blues.
Thats ONLY 50k RP TOTAL. Thats not even 1/6th of ONE level at lvl 55. 1/6th. You need to do that 600 times (20 greens and 10 blues) to get ONE level.
This is going nowhere.... FAST.
If you want to play devils advocate FOR Cryptic they would just use some blanket statement like "Well we know many players that have achieved Orange gear" But I would bet they dont know HOW they achieved it.
Or something like:
"I am not sure what the estimates are on leveling up all of the artifact gear, but the main way that we are trying to make it easier for people is by running the bonus weekends (2x Refinement) as much as possible. Those events not only help keep people logging into the game, but they help ease the RP progression."
Or
"I can assure you after looking at some eastern-market MMOs, the RP system is far from the worst thing ever in the history of MMOs. While it might not be the perfect system, it is definitely an improvement over the old system that we had originally implemented."
These are actual responses.
They have no clue how people are playing their game, I seriously question if they have a system in place to track what people are actually buying in the game. I know they can track which zen item is the most popular, but do they know when a person buys zen what they actually spend it on?
The only "Devils Advocate" that can be made here is if someone gets a bunch of dragon Hoard enchants and goes off for 4-5 hours to farm with TWO sets of gear using those enchants (to reset the CD).
So if thats all you want to do all day everyday you play, you can probably save up RP you get from grinding RP in a cave somewhere and THEN wait for Double RP - which is what the Reddit AMA said they were trying to keep doing, and MAYBE you can get 2 or 3 Orange pieces of gear.
But then you have to ask, is this how you want to force people to play your game? Running two sets of gear swapping out those enchants, doing nothing but grinding mobs over and over for a bunch of crappy whites/greens and occasional Blues?
This is EXACLTY why we have bots, because thats what bots do - mindlessly grind. Players should PLAY the game and get RP.
This is exactly why this thread was made. I mean it IS possible to get Orange gear we are not saying its not possible. It is. Its just not how you should be forced to play. Grind the same thing over and over, swapping out gear, no challenge, no fun, and save everything you get for the next double RP weekend.
Doesn't matter if the devs won't listen.
Forget it. Don't even try. You are talking to a person who expects to never ever be BIS for a variety of reasons.
Hmmm interesting. I like that idea. You can do this with EVERY chest in the game for end game: Offer multiple Choices.
So if this is the case, what they really need to do is increase the amount of RP on each RP stone about 5-10x. Or you can just double them all and put a blood ruby in the DD chests as AN option. Thats 100k RP right there. BOOM.
I like the choice idea. So you need to run 46 dungeons for ONE orange item. That still seems pretty rough to me TBH....
In an ideal situation it should be more like 35ish. for EACH piece. But thats just me.
I mean any of these options are available to them.
EXP->RP
Increase RP on all stones
Give more RP stones for the game like dailies/weekly/DD chests
reduce the RP needed for items (why doesnt the arti-eqip track the same EXP requirements as players?)
- I mean going from lvl 60-61 according to PTR will take like 140k EXP? So why does it take like 400k RP going from Artifact Item lvl 59-60?
If you made everything track PLAYER EXP (meaning the RP required would = the SAME amount of EXP for that level) You would only need about 1 million RP to get an Orange Item.
Well NOW the system is actually quite balanced IMO.
You can go buy 150k RP for $20 on the zen store. That would be MANY levels worth. You could use blues/greens/epics.
I mean shoot. Maybe THATS the solution right there. Just adjust the RP required for each level to be EQUAL to w.e the EXP requirement is. that would lower the costs to UNDER 1 Mil RP to get to 60 and then you wouldnt really need to change much about the game.
Although I would still like to see things handed out from PLAYING the game rather than now getting dragon hoard enchants to go farm RP. Just saying.
But atleast this would now be VIABLE to play to get gear at 1/4th the COST.
You do get RP, you just ignore most of it, along with most players, in part because players only are looking for the "easy" RP stones, also in part because the RP interface makes it cumbersome currently to refine blue/green gear.
Go kill a couple of mobs in Dread Ring or anywhere, you will get 1000 RP easy and it will take you all of 10 seconds, no cooldown. Most of that will be blue/green gear, though. That's why I think there ought to be an auto-loot, auto-identify, and auto-refine option for blue/green gear, so that players can more easily utilize the RP that does actually drop during normal play, not during mindless grinding and farming.
First, 20 greens and 10 blues is between 5,000 and 10,000 RP, depending on the quality of the gear.
Second, count the number of items that drop during a typical dungeon run, any dungeon run. I guarantee that it is more than 30, way more than 30. The only reason more people don't pick them all up is because it's a pain to wade through loot rolls and due to lack of bag space. But otherwise it takes minimal extra work than what you would ordinarily be doing. Think of how much RP you could get from Castle Never if you really could pick up ALL the loot and refine it ALL into your gear from killing ALL the mobs there. It's way more than 10,000 RP. An auto-loot, auto-identify, auto-refine feature would eliminate this problem.
I agree in principle. We've got multiple grindy processes stacked on top of each other. There should only be one and that involves directly playing the game. Either the conversion of items into RP or the refining of RP needs to a largely passive process involving minimnal player input.
You would be able to do more fun things if you didn't have to stop and pick up everything and then manually identify them all and then drag the items one by one into your gear. I don't count how much I get in a day, but I too pick up everything, I haven't bought RP stones from the AH, and I only have one item left to get to purple and it is at rank 32 right now.
And the best part about the auto-loot, auto-identify, auto-refine idea is that even if Cryptic throws more dailies at us, those mobs from those dailies also drop blue/green gear and so it also promotes RP progress. So you don't feel as much like you are missing out on doing "more worthwhile" stuff by doing dailies.
And yes I do consider 7xLegendary to be a huge luxury that ought to take a long time, unless you pay money to speed it up.