182 posts on this thread alone, no official response yet.
And there's a giant elephant in the room
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It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
These are all good ideas, but what I find to be the most insulting of the refinement system is the UI of it. You can only refine 5 single items at once into your artifact? Really? If I have 5 stacks of 99 stones, I have to spend an hour in town click add RP item, select RP item that's stacked, click refine and repeat 100 times? Why can't I add 5 stacks of 99 and be done in 5 minutes, so I can go run dungeons or pvp or whatever?!
The time it takes to upgrade and the horrible costs involved are just twisting the knife, so adding RP items to quests I'm doing already would be a step in the right direction. Adjusting the success percentages or upgrade requirements would be another.
These are all good ideas, but what I find to be the most insulting of the refinement system is the UI of it. You can only refine 5 single items at once into your artifact? Really? If I have 5 stacks of 99 stones, I have to spend an hour in town click add RP item, select RP item that's stacked, click refine and repeat 100 times? Why can't I add 5 stacks of 99 and be done in 5 minutes, so I can go run dungeons or pvp or whatever?!
The time it takes to upgrade and the horrible costs involved are just twisting the knife, so adding RP items to quests I'm doing already would be a step in the right direction. Adjusting the success percentages or upgrade requirements would be another.
Well the issue too is actual items used for RP dont stack.... So its not even plausible to pick up greens and blues and put them in. Thats another whole issue with it.
I mean using rough math, at lvl 50 its about 200-250k per level and from 59-60 its over 350k for that level. So I am guessing if they go to 80 itll be easily about 400k average per level between 60-70 then id guess 500k average per level from 70-80.
This means it would be another 9 million RP from 60 to 80. So it would triple the cost of an orange.
If this is the case my above numbers are even WORSE and would need to be scaled MUCH MUCH harder.
The entire IDEA here SHOULD be, I farm dungeons take epic items (belts/necks/weapons) and use those as the PRIMARY source of RP. Blues and greens are common so they should offer little to no RP.
Honestly if the lvl is gonna be 80 and my rough math is correct it should nearly be 300k-500k+ RP for ONE epic weapon meaning it needs a base of 150-250k RP.
So if that is the case any Epic item should do as follows:
EPIC scale for RP:
(Item Level ^(3))/10 = RP.
So (150^3)/10 = 337,500 RP. This would then be doubled for "like" items meaning 675,000 RP for ONE epic lvl 150 MH into an arti MH.
A lvl 60 item would be : 21,600 RP doubled for 43,200 total if "like" items.
A lvl 90 Epic MH would be: 72,900 doubled to 145,800 total RP (like to like items etc)
What this does is HIGHLY incentives running the best dungeons to get epic items to USE as RP into artifact items.
An epic item level 150 MH is going to be hard to get, it should be VERY rewarding to use that for RP.
The entire idea here is you want players running real content using real items for RP.
Blues could be:
(Item Level ^ 2) = RP. So a lvl 120 Blue item is worth 14,400 RP and would double for like items to 28,800 RP.
A green could be:
Item level = RP
So greens are near garbage but use them if you want. Its free RP.
The issue NOW is you have zen RP that costs WAYYYY too much. So what they need to do are take things like Blood Rubys and make those for like 100 zen each.
That means $20 = 2000 zen = 20 blood rubies = 1,000,000 RP. Now you can get a lvl 60 "orange" item for about $45 and it would cost about $135 USD for a new item lvl 80 artifact mainhand.
I would STRONGLY advise though blood Rubies should be removed from the ZAX and purchasable directly through Cryptic directly though.
All this is based on estimates for Ilvl 80 arti gear and the massive RP that will take.
hmm honestly i'd prefer the exp giving us rp but multiplying them all by 400% is'nt to bad either
Well this would be predicated on costs TODAY, if they increase things to lvl 80 as the new level to get arti-equip to, youll need to bump everything about 800%.
Based on TODAYs numbers everything needs to scale down to about the 2:1 AD:RP ratio or in other words 250:1 Zen:RP
This means Blood Ruby needs to be 200 zen. 50,000 RP = 200 zen.
if things go to lvl 80, youll need to do 100zen = 1 Blood Ruby.
Also the above post where I discussed itemization and RP is for ilvl 80 as well.
If artifacts stay with 60 as the max, obviously we need much less so the above posts would be scaled down quite a bit.
Well the issue too is actual items used for RP dont stack.... So its not even plausible to pick up greens and blues and put them in. Thats another whole issue with it.
I mean using rough math, at lvl 50 its about 200-250k per level and from 59-60 its over 350k for that level. So I am guessing if they go to 80 itll be easily about 400k average per level between 60-70 then id guess 500k average per level from 70-80.
This means it would be another 9 million RP from 60 to 80. So it would triple the cost of an orange.
If this is the case my above numbers are even WORSE and would need to be scaled MUCH MUCH harder.
The entire IDEA here SHOULD be, I farm dungeons take epic items (belts/necks/weapons) and use those as the PRIMARY source of RP. Blues and greens are common so they should offer little to no RP.
Honestly if the lvl is gonna be 80 and my rough math is correct it should nearly be 300k-500k+ RP for ONE epic weapon meaning it needs a base of 150-250k RP.
So if that is the case any Epic item should do as follows:
EPIC scale for RP:
(Item Level ^(3))/10 = RP.
So (150^3)/10 = 337,500 RP. This would then be doubled for "like" items meaning 675,000 RP for ONE epic lvl 150 MH into an arti MH.
A lvl 60 item would be : 21,600 RP doubled for 43,200 total if "like" items.
A lvl 90 Epic MH would be: 72,900 doubled to 145,800 total RP (like to like items etc)
What this does is HIGHLY incentives running the best dungeons to get epic items to USE as RP into artifact items.
An epic item level 150 MH is going to be hard to get, it should be VERY rewarding to use that for RP.
The entire idea here is you want players running real content using real items for RP.
Blues could be:
(Item Level ^ 2) = RP. So a lvl 120 Blue item is worth 14,400 RP and would double for like items to 28,800 RP.
A green could be:
Item level = RP
So greens are near garbage but use them if you want. Its free RP.
The issue NOW is you have zen RP that costs WAYYYY too much. So what they need to do are take things like Blood Rubys and make those for like 100 zen each.
That means $20 = 2000 zen = 20 blood rubies = 1,000,000 RP. Now you can get a lvl 60 "orange" item for about $45 and it would cost about $135 USD for a new item lvl 80 artifact mainhand.
I would STRONGLY advise though blood Rubies should be removed from the ZAX and purchasable directly through Cryptic directly though.
All this is based on estimates for Ilvl 80 arti gear and the massive RP that will take.
You've pretty much hit the issue here on the head. It's the amount of RP needed to get to the end result. My only concern is by targeting solely the gear RP values, we could be making things even more difficult for the average gamer who has time to only do dailies during the week.
I would rather see this:
Lower the total RP requirement for an upgrade
Increase to gear's RP value (greens & blues should make steady progress to upgrade & epics should cause a decision of salvage/refine)
More sources for RP Gems (rewards to dailies/weeklies, approved foundries, PvP, Campaign tasks)
Legendary BoA RP items with a high RP value added as drops for DD and SCA (% chance to drop)
Scale out the points from Gems such that 5 of one tier equals 1 of the next higher tier.
Add upgrade formulas to Jewel crafting to upgrade RP Gems as (4x of same gem + reagent = 1 of next tier... a way to make crafting useful maybe?)
Those changes would allow a casual player to make steady progress to the end result, the diversified average gamer could get there in a reasonable amount of time, and the hardcore dungeon delvers could get there quicker than the average gamer but still with some hard work required.
At the end of the day, they need to take the whole system back to the drawing board.
I made it a point to remind Akro again today to bring this up to the devs.
Lemme make sure I'm summarizing this correctly:
-The current problems with the RP system are: arduous nature of the task of farming RP, lack of reliable RP sources, the cumbersome nature of the refining interface
-What changes players wish to see: more reliable and plentiful sources of RP, the possibility of using overflow EXP as RP, the ability to use stacks of items in refining, a reduction of the total RP cost to refine
That about cover it or is there something I missed in this threadnaught?
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I made it a point to remind Akro again today to bring this up to the devs.
Lemme make sure I'm summarizing this correctly:
-The current problems with the RP system are: arduous nature of the task of farming RP, lack of reliable RP sources, the cumbersome nature of the refining interface
-What changes players wish to see: more reliable and plentiful sources of RP, the possibility of using overflow EXP as RP, the ability to use stacks of items in refining, a reduction of the total RP cost to refine
That about cover it or is there something I missed in this threadnaught?
I guess I would lay it out like this:
ONE) Current RP required for artifact items is far too much compared to the rate at which a gamer earns RP in game. This can be addresed numerous ways:
1) More RP for Epic items used as refinement.
2) RP stones drop much more often
3) EXP earned gives a new resource pool of RP for refinement
4) Quests/dailies/chests could contain much more RP
5) reduced RP required for items.
TWO) RL costs to get an item to max are FAR too overpriced. Currently Cryptic prices an orange item at $600 RL. This number is probably going to atleast double to triple with the new module
THREE) The interface in which you actually USE RP is cumbersome. This goes for artifacts or ANYTHING as well. You should be able to stick an entire STACK of enchants into ONE slot and it would consume the whole thing. Ontop of that, ITEMS used for RP are overbearing considering they dont stack. This solution can also be met with a "pool" of RP idea, because then you could create a System LIKE "salvaging and item" that allows you to salvage it for RP instead. Or shoot, maybe if you salvage an Epic it gives you both the RAW AD as well as the "RP".
But overall those are the big issues: RP earned in game, RL cost of RP, RP interface.
I guess the thing that just hit me about my above post. I really think RP just needs to be treated as a "resource or currency" we can aquire in game.
Using the EXP->RP system as a good base way to earn RP. Or even just EXP earned AT max level instead turns into RP. This would accomplish nearly the same thing.
This also builds a BETTER platform for "salvaging" as you could use the Salvage process as a BETTER way to "Exctract" RP from items. It honestly like to see Green items giving RP removed, those can be gold fodder.
Blues and Epics need to award much more "RP" and instead of using that item TO refine, you salvage it INTO your RP pool. Since you would lose the "like items double" and considering how little you already get from this, the amounts for a Blue/Epic item should be increased ALOT!
This would give a more viable method of accumulating RP in game.
Get an epic item to drop, go salvage it for RAW AD as well as RP. Although the current RP offered for epics is pathetic.
It would be even better if there was a better "salvage" interface that opened up, so you didnt have to click each item multiple times. Similar to a vendor screen where you can just click each item once for the "salvage"
ALL of this would make the game much more fun to play since you could earn RP by being max level and earning EXP which INSTEAD of EXP gives you RP. Then while adventuring when you find blues or epics you can now salvage those items for some good RP!
A blue item should give in the range of a flawless Sapphire (5k RP I think?) While an Epic should be in the range of a Blood Ruby (50k). These figures would need to be adjusted given the tier of the item. Combined with the new item level increase and item level system. I have proposed above what I think would be fair numbers.
1) If RP system stays as is, around 4.5-4.6M for MAX artifact:
Item level x 50= RP for Blues.
Item level x 400 = RP for Epics
(This means a blue item lvl 60 would give 3,000 RP while a blue item lvl 120 would give 6,000 RP)
(This also means an Epic lvl 60 item would give around 24,000 while a lvl 150 epic would be 60,000)
2) If RP system is changed and will require around 15 Million RP:
EPIC scale for RP:
(Item Level ^(3))/10 = RP.
BLUE scale for RP:
(Item Level ^(2)) = RP
(This means a Blue lvl 60 item would give 3,600 RP while a blue lvl 120 item gives 14,400)
(This also means an EPIC lvl 60 item gives 21,600 while an Epic lvl 150 item gives 337,500)
What this allows you to do in both scenarios is a nice scale effect where you get a GREAT reward for using the best items in the game for RP. Combined with the EXP->RP system this now gives adequate RP for playing the game while still providing incentives to skip when you look at the REAL number required for orange items.
Keep in mind with ALL of this. Even if @ lvl 70 we are earning 6k a quest or 7k a quest. It will take ALOT of EXP/RP to get you ONE orange item. Id even say this scale WONT work if RP is going to take near 15 million RP (which is what the rate would be if you copy/past the formula from 50-60 for 60-70 and 70-80)
I guess the thing that just hit me about my above post. I really think RP just needs to be treated as a "resource or currency" we can aquire in game.
Using the EXP->RP system as a good base way to earn RP. Or even just EXP earned AT max level instead turns into RP. This would accomplish nearly the same thing.
This also builds a BETTER platform for "salvaging" as you could use the Salvage process as a BETTER way to "Exctract" RP from items. It honestly like to see Green items giving RP removed, those can be gold fodder.
Blues and Epics need to award much more "RP" and instead of using that item TO refine, you salvage it INTO your RP pool. Since you would lose the "like items double" and considering how little you already get from this, the amounts for a Blue/Epic item should be increased ALOT!
This would give a more viable method of accumulating RP in game.
Get an epic item to drop, go salvage it for RAW AD as well as RP. Although the current RP offered for epics is pathetic.
It would be even better if there was a better "salvage" interface that opened up, so you didnt have to click each item multiple times. Similar to a vendor screen where you can just click each item once for the "salvage"
ALL of this would make the game much more fun to play since you could earn RP by being max level and earning EXP which INSTEAD of EXP gives you RP. Then while adventuring when you find blues or epics you can now salvage those items for some good RP!
A blue item should give in the range of a flawless Sapphire (5k RP I think?) While an Epic should be in the range of a Blood Ruby (50k). These figures would need to be adjusted given the tier of the item. Combined with the new item level increase and item level system. I have proposed above what I think would be fair numbers.
1) If RP system stays as is, around 4.5-4.6M for MAX artifact:
Item level x 50= RP for Blues.
Item level x 400 = RP for Epics
(This means a blue item lvl 60 would give 3,000 RP while a blue item lvl 120 would give 6,000 RP)
(This also means an Epic lvl 60 item would give around 24,000 while a lvl 150 epic would be 60,000)
2) If RP system is changed and will require around 15 Million RP:
EPIC scale for RP:
(Item Level ^(3))/10 = RP.
BLUE scale for RP:
(Item Level ^(2)) = RP
(This means a Blue lvl 60 item would give 3,600 RP while a blue lvl 120 item gives 14,400)
(This also means an EPIC lvl 60 item gives 21,600 while an Epic lvl 150 item gives 337,500)
What this allows you to do in both scenarios is a nice scale effect where you get a GREAT reward for using the best items in the game for RP. Combined with the EXP->RP system this now gives adequate RP for playing the game while still providing incentives to skip when you look at the REAL number required for orange items.
Keep in mind with ALL of this. Even if @ lvl 70 we are earning 6k a quest or 7k a quest. It will take ALOT of EXP/RP to get you ONE orange item. Id even say this scale WONT work if RP is going to take near 15 million RP (which is what the rate would be if you copy/past the formula from 50-60 for 60-70 and 70-80)
thats a really good idea..you might as well be the ''rp manager'' :cool:
I made it a point to remind Akro again today to bring this up to the devs.
Lemme make sure I'm summarizing this correctly:
-The current problems with the RP system are: arduous nature of the task of farming RP, lack of reliable RP sources, the cumbersome nature of the refining interface
-What changes players wish to see: more reliable and plentiful sources of RP, the possibility of using overflow EXP as RP, the ability to use stacks of items in refining, a reduction of the total RP cost to refine
That about cover it or is there something I missed in this threadnaught?
On the topic of cumbersome interface I think it needs a change away from drag and drop. I feel like I'm using the system as designed, meaning I'm refining RP items as they drop, often singularly or a few at a time and the drag and drop is a pita. Even if refining stacks became available it's still a clunky system.
There is the drop down fill with ... option but that's really not particularly use friendly either.
I've still not had a chance to read through ironzergs suggestion but from the images I've seen I like the use of numbers rather than objects for refining and wonder how easy it would be to move to a "salvage item for RP", "spend RP to upgrade" system. You could salvage an entire stack of enchants, etc. /random thought.
Edit: On further consideration I don't think that would be any more user friendly. If the interface requires manual allocation of RP then RP gain would really need to be more passive process. Conversely if RP salvage was the manual process then allocation would need to be passive. I guess something similar to the research system of War Thunder/World of Tanks - you choose what you are refining and all RP flows into that until it's complete, at upgrade point or you change your selection.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2015
To add a bit to the Experience system, the idea behind it was that it's scalable. Meaning, as levels increase, artifact levels increase and more refinement points are needed, the Experience system naturally scales.
Ideas like increasing the drop rate on refinement stones, or awarding them from dungeons is a nice idea, but it can't really be anything more than a bandaid, because of the ever increasing costs. However, with an experience system, the natural increase can be built into the system, giving the devs a more effective way to manage the time-sink involved.
The maximum amount of Experience/Hour is roughly calculable by the devs. You can take an estimate of how many daily or hourly quests the average person can finish in an hour, calculate exactly how much that is worth and then use that as a rough estimate of how quickly players can make progress.
If the developers intended it to take 500 hours of play time to get an Artifact from green to purple, right now there's no way to even remotely caclulate if that's actually happening. And the downside to this is exactly what we're seeing: Player frustration. And if you don't know which way to turn the dial, you have no idea how to alleviate this frustration which in turn hurts retention. And we all know when it comes to Free to Play games, playing players are paying players
So on those fronts, imagine this.
If the maximum RP/HR earned is calculated at 50k/hr for someone on a full on EXP farming binge, and you know your hardcore players play an average of 6 hours at at time, your regular players 2, and you casual players 1, then you can more precisely estimate how quickly someone will max out the Artifact. If you feel like the curve is too easy, you can adjust the experience awarded per quest, mob or dungeon. If it's too slow, you can increase it. But these methods should be FAR easier to dial in that drop rates on stones. Plus, this system becomes scalable, so as you add new artifact slots, or raise the level cap, you can add more experience options, or increase the amount of experience that higher level quests give you to compensate for the increase in RP.
Plus, these dials can be adjusted without impacting the economy.
To add a bit to the Experience system, the idea behind it was that it's scalable. Meaning, as levels increase, artifact levels increase and more refinement points are needed, the Experience system naturally scales.
I think the only difference or issue with this is that levels are increasing from 60-70 but they want to increase the artifact level to 80 as the max. Meaning we will need about 3x more RP on the current scale of things. Seeing as the level EXP system currently needs 250k for each level. Going from 60-61 will take about 140k EXP. So I will assume that by the time we hit 70 itll probably be around 350k EXP per level? Fair?
So even if quests give us 8k EXP per quest (nearly double what we get now)
ALL of that math will STILL be scaled down since artifact level max will be 80! So unless they go back on that and ONLY bump it to lvl 70 as the new max. It wont work IMO.
Also I think its a little silly (and blatantly obvious) that it takes our CHARACTER 140k EXP to go from 60-61 but it takes my artifact item over 350-400k to go from 59-60?
If anything artifact items should follow the SAME "EXP CURVE" as players. Meaning that on our EXP->RP system going from lvl 1 to lvl 60 would net you enough RP for exactly ONE orange item.
This would mean what, 1M RP per piece?
Now that seems MUCH more resonable and AGAIN what I keep suggesting is around the current correct price (200 zen = 50,000k RP based on the current system of about 4.5-4.6m RP needed.
Well if the total RP needed drops to 1MRP then paying 2000 zen for 150k RP is MUCH more reasonable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I guess the thing that just hit me about my above post. I really think RP just needs to be treated as a "resource or currency" we can aquire in game.
Using the EXP->RP system as a good base way to earn RP. Or even just EXP earned AT max level instead turns into RP. This would accomplish nearly the same thing.
This also builds a BETTER platform for "salvaging" as you could use the Salvage process as a BETTER way to "Exctract" RP from items. It honestly like to see Green items giving RP removed, those can be gold fodder.
Blues and Epics need to award much more "RP" and instead of using that item TO refine, you salvage it INTO your RP pool. Since you would lose the "like items double" and considering how little you already get from this, the amounts for a Blue/Epic item should be increased ALOT!
This would give a more viable method of accumulating RP in game.
Get an epic item to drop, go salvage it for RAW AD as well as RP. Although the current RP offered for epics is pathetic.
It would be even better if there was a better "salvage" interface that opened up, so you didnt have to click each item multiple times. Similar to a vendor screen where you can just click each item once for the "salvage"
ALL of this would make the game much more fun to play since you could earn RP by being max level and earning EXP which INSTEAD of EXP gives you RP. Then while adventuring when you find blues or epics you can now salvage those items for some good RP!
A blue item should give in the range of a flawless Sapphire (5k RP I think?) While an Epic should be in the range of a Blood Ruby (50k). These figures would need to be adjusted given the tier of the item. Combined with the new item level increase and item level system. I have proposed above what I think would be fair numbers.
1) If RP system stays as is, around 4.5-4.6M for MAX artifact:
Item level x 50= RP for Blues.
Item level x 400 = RP for Epics
(This means a blue item lvl 60 would give 3,000 RP while a blue item lvl 120 would give 6,000 RP)
(This also means an Epic lvl 60 item would give around 24,000 while a lvl 150 epic would be 60,000)
2) If RP system is changed and will require around 15 Million RP:
EPIC scale for RP:
(Item Level ^(3))/10 = RP.
BLUE scale for RP:
(Item Level ^(2)) = RP
(This means a Blue lvl 60 item would give 3,600 RP while a blue lvl 120 item gives 14,400)
(This also means an EPIC lvl 60 item gives 21,600 while an Epic lvl 150 item gives 337,500)
What this allows you to do in both scenarios is a nice scale effect where you get a GREAT reward for using the best items in the game for RP. Combined with the EXP->RP system this now gives adequate RP for playing the game while still providing incentives to skip when you look at the REAL number required for orange items.
Keep in mind with ALL of this. Even if @ lvl 70 we are earning 6k a quest or 7k a quest. It will take ALOT of EXP/RP to get you ONE orange item. Id even say this scale WONT work if RP is going to take near 15 million RP (which is what the rate would be if you copy/past the formula from 50-60 for 60-70 and 70-80)
Just want to toss in my idea for epics, it should be fairly simple I would think. Let salvage ad equal refine rp on epic items.
Just want to toss in my idea for epics, it should be fairly simple I would think. Let salvage ad equal refine rp on epic items.
Lets just say there is NO increase in RP (which I'm 90% certain there will be) and you get what, 8,000 Raw AD for a higher tier item?
So thats 8,000 RP? Its much better than the 1200 or w.e we get now... But its still nowhere near enough.
4,600,000 / 8,000 = 575 T2+ Epic items needed for an orange. Now lets just say you were gonna try and actually PLAY the game for this RP instead of buying it.
how many dungeon runs would you need to get 575 t2+ epic items?
Wont work.
The entire purpose of the math formula is to properly incentive the correct things.
the most optimal way to get RP SHOULD be to take the highest quality items and use them for RP. Therefore a higher quality item should be MUCH more valuable for RP than a lower quality one.
This is the problem with current mechanics. Because you can go buy 3 green lvl 60 items for 30-60 AD which give you 300 RP compared to buying 1 blue for 300-600 AD and it giving you SAME 300 RP.
Then its even worse with epics costing you 6-8k+ AD but only giving like 1200 RP. So CURRENTLY its better to BUY 12 green items which equal ONE epic item.
Even on your math, it would still be cheaper to go buy 80 green items for 8k RP versus just getting your 1 epic. It is DEFINITELY a step in the right direction but still wont get us there.... I mean even just ONE level in the 50s you need about 350k RP. So you would need 43+ t2+ Epic items for ONE level. Just ONE!
The RP should have the HIGHEST return for the most rare item. period. Not the SAME as greens or blues just on a bigger scale.
So you need a formula that makes it so the better/more rare the item, the higher the rewards on a NON-linear function.
Therefore you have to have an exponential curve for value of RP otherwise youll keep running back to the problem of 2 lessers > 1 normal (as far as RP cost) - meaning 2 greens > 1 blue or 2 blues > 1 epic etc.
1 blue should be worth 10 greens for instance. 1 Epic should be worth like ATLEAST 10 blues if not more like 25+ Blues. Think how easy it is to run out and get a blue item versus how much harder it is to get ONE epic item.
You may be able to just use THAT formula but that formula does not factor in item level which a lvl 60 epic is VASTLY different than a lvl 150 epic (item level)
So again, you need a formula representing that or the best way to farm RP will be lvl 70 players solo T2 dungeons for the T2+ epics.
This is why the formula needs to be based on tier (green/blue/epic) and also needs to reward HIGHER level epics at a much more rewarding rate than lower tier epics.
I mean even now, using the Raw AD system it would be better to go buy the LOWEST tier epic item since eventhough it would only net you 4-5k RP you would pay like 1/4th the cost of a higher tier epic that might give 8k RP.
See the issue?
It gets worst with lvl 150+ Epics versus lvl 60 epics.
The lvl 150 should be worth more than even 150/60*RP because it would mean its still JUST as feasible to go buy lower tier epics for RP, which gives NO incentive to farm higher tier zones.
So the function HAS to be exponential to reward/incentive the proper types of play.
Also I think the "Solve" as to how much RP should be based on the concept:
The Highest Tier Epic from the Hardest Content should at MINIMUM give you enough RP for ONE level.
This means that if we were to go back in time to Castle Never days, and THEN released Artifact Gear, the Ancient MH sword (for instance) should give you atleast 350k+ RP (the RP requirement from lvl 59-60)
Now, though, CN will be too easy for lvl 70 players.
I made it a point to remind Akro again today to bring this up to the devs.
Lemme make sure I'm summarizing this correctly:
-The current problems with the RP system are: arduous nature of the task of farming RP, lack of reliable RP sources, the cumbersome nature of the refining interface
-What changes players wish to see: more reliable and plentiful sources of RP, the possibility of using overflow EXP as RP, the ability to use stacks of items in refining, a reduction of the total RP cost to refine
That about cover it or is there something I missed in this threadnaught?
Thank you. Sums it up pretty well. Hopefully the dev team will be open to improvements.
Thank you. Sums it up pretty well. Hopefully the dev team will be open to improvements.
How much popularity has this thread gained? In the DEV stream showcasing paladins they claim they want feedback, I dont know how much more feedback you can get.........
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I mean even acknowledging awareness of the issue... Cmon!
The only thing I can think of is that its either determined by a higher up, or nobody wants to put their job on the line by reducing a potential income source by making RP easier to obtain in game.
News Flash: IT WONT! IT WILL INCREASE INCOME TO CRYPTIC.
I have already detailed this. Ill make it even more simple here.
Players can IN GAME get an artifact equipment item to epic with a little farming or using a few hundred blue items. This will not cause the player to BUY, all it does is make them feel like its easy to level (as seen in multiple threads including this one) but they wont buy!
THEN they get to about the lvl 40-45 range and realize how hard it is to level, look to see how much it costs to finish the job to 60 thinking (im over half way!) and find out it would take $400 to take them from lvl 40-45 to lvl 60 so whats the point??!?!?! $400?!?! I can buy an XBOX! They pass and say forget this and just take the fact they have a lvl 40 epic for free thats better than the formorian weapons
Now what if that SAME player could freely farm that item up to say lvl 50 by JUST experience alone (granting RP for EXP earned). Well now they might be willing to BUY the rest of the way. So they check the price... Oh man.... Cryptic wants me to pay $350 to get it to 60 from 50?!?!? Eh forget that.... That didnt really help at ALL! So they move on again....
See the issues? The current game, the player doesnt even get CLOSE enough to 60 to even think about buying. The second scenario (EXP->RP system) you enable them to get CLOSE to 60 but your costs are STILL too far out of wack!
So the ideal? Here it is:
Enabling EXP->RP takes your item to lvl 50 naturally with little farming. NOW the player looks to see the cost and lo and behold! It costs only 100 zen for a blood ruby (50k RP), well thats LESS than $100, its actually only $60. Sign me up for THAT! BOOM $60 in cryptics pocket and now I have a nice Orange item.
THEN I move on to a new orange item. A belt or Neck for instance. Repeat the process. Level it partially via EXP while its easy. Get it to lvl 45 and BOOM $80 to finish it. Im happy, Cryptics Happy.
So it takes BOTH a reasonable RP charge (100 zen per Blood Ruby is about right) as well as a reasonable way to earn Rp IN GAME BY PLAYING (VIA our EXP system detailed here).
Its just silly you guys..... Currently the pricing is $600 PER orange item. $600!!!!!!!!!!
There is NO way to get RP in game and if you make it TOO good to get RP in game NOONE will buy. So you need a nice middle ground. You NEED to get the player CLOSE to max level on their OWN WITHOUT paying, then make it hard to FINISH it without paying so they take the shortcut and pay.
But for paying it cant be $400 or even $300 players wont pay this for ONE item - especially when the track record is that every 2-3 months its nerfed and worthless.
If you give players RP for every 1 EXP earned. You increase Drops from Chests and what not, they get CLOSE to max artifacts on their OWN. THATS where they dip into their wallets and pay.
$20-$30 gets you a new mount.
$20-30 doesnt even get you ONE artifact Level. Why would I do that?1
I mean even acknowledging awareness of the issue... Cmon!
The only thing I can think of is that its either determined by a higher up, or nobody wants to put their job on the line by reducing a potential income source by making RP easier to obtain in game.
News Flash: IT WONT! IT WILL INCREASE INCOME TO CRYPTIC.
I have already detailed this. Ill make it even more simple here.
Players can IN GAME get an artifact equipment item to epic with a little farming or using a few hundred blue items. This will not cause the player to BUY, all it does is make them feel like its easy to level (as seen in multiple threads including this one) but they wont buy!
THEN they get to about the lvl 40-45 range and realize how hard it is to level, look to see how much it costs to finish the job to 60 thinking (im over half way!) and find out it would take $400 to take them from lvl 40-45 to lvl 60 so whats the point??!?!?! $400?!?! I can buy an XBOX! They pass and say forget this and just take the fact they have a lvl 40 epic for free thats better than the formorian weapons
Now what if that SAME player could freely farm that item up to say lvl 50 by JUST experience alone (granting RP for EXP earned). Well now they might be willing to BUY the rest of the way. So they check the price... Oh man.... Cryptic wants me to pay $350 to get it to 60 from 50?!?!? Eh forget that.... That didnt really help at ALL! So they move on again....
See the issues? The current game, the player doesnt even get CLOSE enough to 60 to even think about buying. The second scenario (EXP->RP system) you enable them to get CLOSE to 60 but your costs are STILL too far out of wack!
So the ideal? Here it is:
Enabling EXP->RP takes your item to lvl 50 naturally with little farming. NOW the player looks to see the cost and lo and behold! It costs only 100 zen for a blood ruby (50k RP), well thats LESS than $100, its actually only $60. Sign me up for THAT! BOOM $60 in cryptics pocket and now I have a nice Orange item.
THEN I move on to a new orange item. A belt or Neck for instance. Repeat the process. Level it partially via EXP while its easy. Get it to lvl 45 and BOOM $80 to finish it. Im happy, Cryptics Happy.
So it takes BOTH a reasonable RP charge (100 zen per Blood Ruby is about right) as well as a reasonable way to earn Rp IN GAME BY PLAYING (VIA our EXP system detailed here).
Its just silly you guys..... Currently the pricing is $600 PER orange item. $600!!!!!!!!!!
There is NO way to get RP in game and if you make it TOO good to get RP in game NOONE will buy. So you need a nice middle ground. You NEED to get the player CLOSE to max level on their OWN WITHOUT paying, then make it hard to FINISH it without paying so they take the shortcut and pay.
But for paying it cant be $400 or even $300 players wont pay this for ONE item - especially when the track record is that every 2-3 months its nerfed and worthless.
If you give players RP for every 1 EXP earned. You increase Drops from Chests and what not, they get CLOSE to max artifacts on their OWN. THATS where they dip into their wallets and pay.
$20-$30 gets you a new mount.
$20-30 doesnt even get you ONE artifact Level. Why would I do that?1
It's not just that they don't pay, they either leave or think of botting as well.
It's not just that they don't pay, they either leave or think of botting as well.
Or third party sales... Last time I checked it was like $10 per million of AD? Well you can pay $10 for 1M AD, go BUY 2000 zen and you just got your artifact item what, half off?
Or they turn to botting and use dragon horde enchants... Bound RP but use it and bam free item....
I think its pretty clear there is a BOT issue in this game since they made fixes to portals... Also all the 99 stacks of RP/echants? I mean cmon.... who really saves all their Peridots to post 10 stacks of x99 on the AH? Noone I know....
0
nedruodMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 31
edited February 2015
My first bit of feedback is, don't make it harder. Push the bar up (Level 12/120), but make filling the bar about the same effort as before. So for enchantments, level 6's should drop for level 70 zones in place of level 4's.
For artifacts, I'm not sure how many times more RP a level 120 artifact will require, but if it's 4 times as much for 120 vs. 100, I'd suggest increasing the value of peridots to 2,000 RP. I think this is simpler than creating a whole new set of items. This works for for artifacts because there's no overlap between the inputs (peri, etc.) and outputs (an artifact).
Overall I think the point of the level 12/120 stuff is to somewhat reset the end game, not make it impossible (sans cheating).
Beyond the basic numbers games, I've liked the suggestion for making the old dungeon chests have some RP rewards similar to the dread ring lair chests.
0
onecoolscatcatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 575Arc User
I think its pretty clear there is a BOT issue in this game....
Close. Problem is farming is a far more profitable use of time than actually playing the game. Bots farm more efficiently than people, hence the issue.
You know what I fear most? That there are enough people that actually do pay for Cryptic to ignore this thread entirely.
Im very very sure that most of the PVP community did not pay cryptic directly for their orange items. Just saying.
Also Q3 results last year 2014, showed that PWE's profits were down 50% and they blamed their US operations (cryptic).
Ontop of that I spoke to a DEV who mentioned that a LARGE majority of their revenue comes from the Russian server. Huh, whats popular in the Russian server? Oh thats right... PVP! Hmmmm maybe there is a correlation there?
Id say that most of the PVP population here though has been fed through botted and exploited RP. What I mean, its no secret, that not that long ago RP was NOT bound. Bots were rampant and the cost for an orange was like 2.5 Mil AD.
Well shoot man... Players probably backed up the truck and bought some zen or maybe even third party AD and got legendary gear for like $40-50? each?
Now with all the unbound RP nearly quadrupled since the supply ran up. There is no other option for players.
So cryptic probably hardly made ANYTHING off all the PVPers with all the orange gear. (I know myself personally quit right after mod 4, sold all my enchants, when I came back about 2 weeks after mod 5 everything was like 1/3rd the price. Bought it all back and STILL had some AD left (like millions - I have mostly rank 10s), bought a ton of RP on the AH (like 15 mil RP for about 8mil AD) and also was given some RP from guild mates.) So from MY story alone, I have 4 orange pieces that required me to buy ZERO AD/zen from Cryptic.
Now what I did isnt plausible for a player. Sell ALL your enchants? If enchant prices had gone UP I would have been screwed and probably wouldnt have come back to the game TBH.
Prices went down, I saw I could bankroll my character with what I had and bought ALOT of unbound RP off the AH. You cant do that today.
Im 99% sure that unbound RP was Botted but I dont care, I wasnt gonna pay $600 per item. I had the AD, it was on the AH... Done deal.
Most of the sales I would imagine come from things like mounts or "packs" like the dragon born pack (which I did buy and REGRET!) I think that was the last contribution I made because shortly after you can now buy JUST the race - which is all I really wanted anyways....
So each time I actually do pony up and buy stuff from Cryptic, it gets nerfed, so I vowed never to buy again. Well I would end up buying if it was REASONABLE! Id rather go buy a second Xbox ONE and some free games for $600 than actually buy ONE orange piece though. Thats just beyond reasonable.
/end rant.
In all seriousness though, they need to fix this stuff because its about 400-800% TOO EXPENSIVE FOR ANYONE TO BUY IT!!!!!!!!!!
Whats better ONE sale for $600 or 100 sales for $60? Case Closed.
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Problem with this is, even if you gave a black opal (10k rp), it would take you literally 460 days of doing that daily for ONE artifact orange item.
That just shows you how pathetic it is.
Either they need to cut the RP required in half for each item or give us RP for all the exp earned.
Or another idea could be multiplying all the RP stones by about 400%.
Lesser Resonance = 2,000 RP for instance instead of 500.
Resonance = 10,000 RP etc.
Also I would like to see actual items worth real RP.
I think taking the new item level system could work with a function of:
Item level x20= RP for Greens.
Item level x 50= RP for Blues.
Item level x 200 = RP for Epics.
So lets look at a lvl 100 item.
Green = 2,000 RP
Blue = 5,000 RP
Epic = 20,000 RP
This would DOUBLE for "like items" so an Epic lvl 100 weapon would actually give 40,000 RP.
A lvl 150 epic weapon would give 60,000 RP(30,000x2)
Even this would take ALOT to get to 4.5M RP for an orange. So maybe these even need to scale up MORE for lvl 80 artifact items.
The time it takes to upgrade and the horrible costs involved are just twisting the knife, so adding RP items to quests I'm doing already would be a step in the right direction. Adjusting the success percentages or upgrade requirements would be another.
Well the issue too is actual items used for RP dont stack.... So its not even plausible to pick up greens and blues and put them in. Thats another whole issue with it.
I mean using rough math, at lvl 50 its about 200-250k per level and from 59-60 its over 350k for that level. So I am guessing if they go to 80 itll be easily about 400k average per level between 60-70 then id guess 500k average per level from 70-80.
This means it would be another 9 million RP from 60 to 80. So it would triple the cost of an orange.
If this is the case my above numbers are even WORSE and would need to be scaled MUCH MUCH harder.
The entire IDEA here SHOULD be, I farm dungeons take epic items (belts/necks/weapons) and use those as the PRIMARY source of RP. Blues and greens are common so they should offer little to no RP.
Honestly if the lvl is gonna be 80 and my rough math is correct it should nearly be 300k-500k+ RP for ONE epic weapon meaning it needs a base of 150-250k RP.
So if that is the case any Epic item should do as follows:
EPIC scale for RP:
(Item Level ^(3))/10 = RP.
So (150^3)/10 = 337,500 RP. This would then be doubled for "like" items meaning 675,000 RP for ONE epic lvl 150 MH into an arti MH.
A lvl 60 item would be : 21,600 RP doubled for 43,200 total if "like" items.
A lvl 90 Epic MH would be: 72,900 doubled to 145,800 total RP (like to like items etc)
What this does is HIGHLY incentives running the best dungeons to get epic items to USE as RP into artifact items.
An epic item level 150 MH is going to be hard to get, it should be VERY rewarding to use that for RP.
The entire idea here is you want players running real content using real items for RP.
Blues could be:
(Item Level ^ 2) = RP. So a lvl 120 Blue item is worth 14,400 RP and would double for like items to 28,800 RP.
A green could be:
Item level = RP
So greens are near garbage but use them if you want. Its free RP.
The issue NOW is you have zen RP that costs WAYYYY too much. So what they need to do are take things like Blood Rubys and make those for like 100 zen each.
That means $20 = 2000 zen = 20 blood rubies = 1,000,000 RP. Now you can get a lvl 60 "orange" item for about $45 and it would cost about $135 USD for a new item lvl 80 artifact mainhand.
I would STRONGLY advise though blood Rubies should be removed from the ZAX and purchasable directly through Cryptic directly though.
All this is based on estimates for Ilvl 80 arti gear and the massive RP that will take.
hmm honestly i'd prefer the exp giving us rp but multiplying them all by 400% is'nt to bad either
Well this would be predicated on costs TODAY, if they increase things to lvl 80 as the new level to get arti-equip to, youll need to bump everything about 800%.
Based on TODAYs numbers everything needs to scale down to about the 2:1 AD:RP ratio or in other words 250:1 Zen:RP
This means Blood Ruby needs to be 200 zen. 50,000 RP = 200 zen.
if things go to lvl 80, youll need to do 100zen = 1 Blood Ruby.
Also the above post where I discussed itemization and RP is for ilvl 80 as well.
If artifacts stay with 60 as the max, obviously we need much less so the above posts would be scaled down quite a bit.
You've pretty much hit the issue here on the head. It's the amount of RP needed to get to the end result. My only concern is by targeting solely the gear RP values, we could be making things even more difficult for the average gamer who has time to only do dailies during the week.
I would rather see this:
Lower the total RP requirement for an upgrade
Increase to gear's RP value (greens & blues should make steady progress to upgrade & epics should cause a decision of salvage/refine)
More sources for RP Gems (rewards to dailies/weeklies, approved foundries, PvP, Campaign tasks)
Legendary BoA RP items with a high RP value added as drops for DD and SCA (% chance to drop)
Scale out the points from Gems such that 5 of one tier equals 1 of the next higher tier.
Add upgrade formulas to Jewel crafting to upgrade RP Gems as (4x of same gem + reagent = 1 of next tier... a way to make crafting useful maybe?)
Those changes would allow a casual player to make steady progress to the end result, the diversified average gamer could get there in a reasonable amount of time, and the hardcore dungeon delvers could get there quicker than the average gamer but still with some hard work required.
At the end of the day, they need to take the whole system back to the drawing board.
Lemme make sure I'm summarizing this correctly:
-The current problems with the RP system are: arduous nature of the task of farming RP, lack of reliable RP sources, the cumbersome nature of the refining interface
-What changes players wish to see: more reliable and plentiful sources of RP, the possibility of using overflow EXP as RP, the ability to use stacks of items in refining, a reduction of the total RP cost to refine
That about cover it or is there something I missed in this threadnaught?
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I guess I would lay it out like this:
ONE) Current RP required for artifact items is far too much compared to the rate at which a gamer earns RP in game. This can be addresed numerous ways:
1) More RP for Epic items used as refinement.
2) RP stones drop much more often
3) EXP earned gives a new resource pool of RP for refinement
4) Quests/dailies/chests could contain much more RP
5) reduced RP required for items.
TWO) RL costs to get an item to max are FAR too overpriced. Currently Cryptic prices an orange item at $600 RL. This number is probably going to atleast double to triple with the new module
THREE) The interface in which you actually USE RP is cumbersome. This goes for artifacts or ANYTHING as well. You should be able to stick an entire STACK of enchants into ONE slot and it would consume the whole thing. Ontop of that, ITEMS used for RP are overbearing considering they dont stack. This solution can also be met with a "pool" of RP idea, because then you could create a System LIKE "salvaging and item" that allows you to salvage it for RP instead. Or shoot, maybe if you salvage an Epic it gives you both the RAW AD as well as the "RP".
But overall those are the big issues: RP earned in game, RL cost of RP, RP interface.
Using the EXP->RP system as a good base way to earn RP. Or even just EXP earned AT max level instead turns into RP. This would accomplish nearly the same thing.
This also builds a BETTER platform for "salvaging" as you could use the Salvage process as a BETTER way to "Exctract" RP from items. It honestly like to see Green items giving RP removed, those can be gold fodder.
Blues and Epics need to award much more "RP" and instead of using that item TO refine, you salvage it INTO your RP pool. Since you would lose the "like items double" and considering how little you already get from this, the amounts for a Blue/Epic item should be increased ALOT!
This would give a more viable method of accumulating RP in game.
Get an epic item to drop, go salvage it for RAW AD as well as RP. Although the current RP offered for epics is pathetic.
It would be even better if there was a better "salvage" interface that opened up, so you didnt have to click each item multiple times. Similar to a vendor screen where you can just click each item once for the "salvage"
ALL of this would make the game much more fun to play since you could earn RP by being max level and earning EXP which INSTEAD of EXP gives you RP. Then while adventuring when you find blues or epics you can now salvage those items for some good RP!
A blue item should give in the range of a flawless Sapphire (5k RP I think?) While an Epic should be in the range of a Blood Ruby (50k). These figures would need to be adjusted given the tier of the item. Combined with the new item level increase and item level system. I have proposed above what I think would be fair numbers.
1) If RP system stays as is, around 4.5-4.6M for MAX artifact:
Item level x 50= RP for Blues.
Item level x 400 = RP for Epics
(This means a blue item lvl 60 would give 3,000 RP while a blue item lvl 120 would give 6,000 RP)
(This also means an Epic lvl 60 item would give around 24,000 while a lvl 150 epic would be 60,000)
2) If RP system is changed and will require around 15 Million RP:
EPIC scale for RP:
(Item Level ^(3))/10 = RP.
BLUE scale for RP:
(Item Level ^(2)) = RP
(This means a Blue lvl 60 item would give 3,600 RP while a blue lvl 120 item gives 14,400)
(This also means an EPIC lvl 60 item gives 21,600 while an Epic lvl 150 item gives 337,500)
What this allows you to do in both scenarios is a nice scale effect where you get a GREAT reward for using the best items in the game for RP. Combined with the EXP->RP system this now gives adequate RP for playing the game while still providing incentives to skip when you look at the REAL number required for orange items.
Keep in mind with ALL of this. Even if @ lvl 70 we are earning 6k a quest or 7k a quest. It will take ALOT of EXP/RP to get you ONE orange item. Id even say this scale WONT work if RP is going to take near 15 million RP (which is what the rate would be if you copy/past the formula from 50-60 for 60-70 and 70-80)
thats a really good idea..you might as well be the ''rp manager'' :cool:
On the topic of cumbersome interface I think it needs a change away from drag and drop. I feel like I'm using the system as designed, meaning I'm refining RP items as they drop, often singularly or a few at a time and the drag and drop is a pita. Even if refining stacks became available it's still a clunky system.
There is the drop down fill with ... option but that's really not particularly use friendly either.
I've still not had a chance to read through ironzergs suggestion but from the images I've seen I like the use of numbers rather than objects for refining and wonder how easy it would be to move to a "salvage item for RP", "spend RP to upgrade" system. You could salvage an entire stack of enchants, etc. /random thought.
Edit: On further consideration I don't think that would be any more user friendly. If the interface requires manual allocation of RP then RP gain would really need to be more passive process. Conversely if RP salvage was the manual process then allocation would need to be passive. I guess something similar to the research system of War Thunder/World of Tanks - you choose what you are refining and all RP flows into that until it's complete, at upgrade point or you change your selection.
Ideas like increasing the drop rate on refinement stones, or awarding them from dungeons is a nice idea, but it can't really be anything more than a bandaid, because of the ever increasing costs. However, with an experience system, the natural increase can be built into the system, giving the devs a more effective way to manage the time-sink involved.
The maximum amount of Experience/Hour is roughly calculable by the devs. You can take an estimate of how many daily or hourly quests the average person can finish in an hour, calculate exactly how much that is worth and then use that as a rough estimate of how quickly players can make progress.
If the developers intended it to take 500 hours of play time to get an Artifact from green to purple, right now there's no way to even remotely caclulate if that's actually happening. And the downside to this is exactly what we're seeing: Player frustration. And if you don't know which way to turn the dial, you have no idea how to alleviate this frustration which in turn hurts retention. And we all know when it comes to Free to Play games, playing players are paying players
So on those fronts, imagine this.
If the maximum RP/HR earned is calculated at 50k/hr for someone on a full on EXP farming binge, and you know your hardcore players play an average of 6 hours at at time, your regular players 2, and you casual players 1, then you can more precisely estimate how quickly someone will max out the Artifact. If you feel like the curve is too easy, you can adjust the experience awarded per quest, mob or dungeon. If it's too slow, you can increase it. But these methods should be FAR easier to dial in that drop rates on stones. Plus, this system becomes scalable, so as you add new artifact slots, or raise the level cap, you can add more experience options, or increase the amount of experience that higher level quests give you to compensate for the increase in RP.
Plus, these dials can be adjusted without impacting the economy.
I think the only difference or issue with this is that levels are increasing from 60-70 but they want to increase the artifact level to 80 as the max. Meaning we will need about 3x more RP on the current scale of things. Seeing as the level EXP system currently needs 250k for each level. Going from 60-61 will take about 140k EXP. So I will assume that by the time we hit 70 itll probably be around 350k EXP per level? Fair?
So even if quests give us 8k EXP per quest (nearly double what we get now)
ALL of that math will STILL be scaled down since artifact level max will be 80! So unless they go back on that and ONLY bump it to lvl 70 as the new max. It wont work IMO.
Also I think its a little silly (and blatantly obvious) that it takes our CHARACTER 140k EXP to go from 60-61 but it takes my artifact item over 350-400k to go from 59-60?
If anything artifact items should follow the SAME "EXP CURVE" as players. Meaning that on our EXP->RP system going from lvl 1 to lvl 60 would net you enough RP for exactly ONE orange item.
This would mean what, 1M RP per piece?
Now that seems MUCH more resonable and AGAIN what I keep suggesting is around the current correct price (200 zen = 50,000k RP based on the current system of about 4.5-4.6m RP needed.
Well if the total RP needed drops to 1MRP then paying 2000 zen for 150k RP is MUCH more reasonable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lets just say there is NO increase in RP (which I'm 90% certain there will be) and you get what, 8,000 Raw AD for a higher tier item?
So thats 8,000 RP? Its much better than the 1200 or w.e we get now... But its still nowhere near enough.
4,600,000 / 8,000 = 575 T2+ Epic items needed for an orange. Now lets just say you were gonna try and actually PLAY the game for this RP instead of buying it.
how many dungeon runs would you need to get 575 t2+ epic items?
Wont work.
The entire purpose of the math formula is to properly incentive the correct things.
the most optimal way to get RP SHOULD be to take the highest quality items and use them for RP. Therefore a higher quality item should be MUCH more valuable for RP than a lower quality one.
This is the problem with current mechanics. Because you can go buy 3 green lvl 60 items for 30-60 AD which give you 300 RP compared to buying 1 blue for 300-600 AD and it giving you SAME 300 RP.
Then its even worse with epics costing you 6-8k+ AD but only giving like 1200 RP. So CURRENTLY its better to BUY 12 green items which equal ONE epic item.
Even on your math, it would still be cheaper to go buy 80 green items for 8k RP versus just getting your 1 epic. It is DEFINITELY a step in the right direction but still wont get us there.... I mean even just ONE level in the 50s you need about 350k RP. So you would need 43+ t2+ Epic items for ONE level. Just ONE!
The RP should have the HIGHEST return for the most rare item. period. Not the SAME as greens or blues just on a bigger scale.
So you need a formula that makes it so the better/more rare the item, the higher the rewards on a NON-linear function.
Therefore you have to have an exponential curve for value of RP otherwise youll keep running back to the problem of 2 lessers > 1 normal (as far as RP cost) - meaning 2 greens > 1 blue or 2 blues > 1 epic etc.
1 blue should be worth 10 greens for instance. 1 Epic should be worth like ATLEAST 10 blues if not more like 25+ Blues. Think how easy it is to run out and get a blue item versus how much harder it is to get ONE epic item.
You may be able to just use THAT formula but that formula does not factor in item level which a lvl 60 epic is VASTLY different than a lvl 150 epic (item level)
So again, you need a formula representing that or the best way to farm RP will be lvl 70 players solo T2 dungeons for the T2+ epics.
This is why the formula needs to be based on tier (green/blue/epic) and also needs to reward HIGHER level epics at a much more rewarding rate than lower tier epics.
I mean even now, using the Raw AD system it would be better to go buy the LOWEST tier epic item since eventhough it would only net you 4-5k RP you would pay like 1/4th the cost of a higher tier epic that might give 8k RP.
See the issue?
It gets worst with lvl 150+ Epics versus lvl 60 epics.
The lvl 150 should be worth more than even 150/60*RP because it would mean its still JUST as feasible to go buy lower tier epics for RP, which gives NO incentive to farm higher tier zones.
So the function HAS to be exponential to reward/incentive the proper types of play.
Also I think the "Solve" as to how much RP should be based on the concept:
The Highest Tier Epic from the Hardest Content should at MINIMUM give you enough RP for ONE level.
This means that if we were to go back in time to Castle Never days, and THEN released Artifact Gear, the Ancient MH sword (for instance) should give you atleast 350k+ RP (the RP requirement from lvl 59-60)
Now, though, CN will be too easy for lvl 70 players.
Thank you. Sums it up pretty well. Hopefully the dev team will be open to improvements.
How much popularity has this thread gained? In the DEV stream showcasing paladins they claim they want feedback, I dont know how much more feedback you can get.........
And zero DEV response.....
I mean even acknowledging awareness of the issue... Cmon!
The only thing I can think of is that its either determined by a higher up, or nobody wants to put their job on the line by reducing a potential income source by making RP easier to obtain in game.
News Flash: IT WONT! IT WILL INCREASE INCOME TO CRYPTIC.
I have already detailed this. Ill make it even more simple here.
Players can IN GAME get an artifact equipment item to epic with a little farming or using a few hundred blue items. This will not cause the player to BUY, all it does is make them feel like its easy to level (as seen in multiple threads including this one) but they wont buy!
THEN they get to about the lvl 40-45 range and realize how hard it is to level, look to see how much it costs to finish the job to 60 thinking (im over half way!) and find out it would take $400 to take them from lvl 40-45 to lvl 60 so whats the point??!?!?! $400?!?! I can buy an XBOX! They pass and say forget this and just take the fact they have a lvl 40 epic for free thats better than the formorian weapons
Now what if that SAME player could freely farm that item up to say lvl 50 by JUST experience alone (granting RP for EXP earned). Well now they might be willing to BUY the rest of the way. So they check the price... Oh man.... Cryptic wants me to pay $350 to get it to 60 from 50?!?!? Eh forget that.... That didnt really help at ALL! So they move on again....
See the issues? The current game, the player doesnt even get CLOSE enough to 60 to even think about buying. The second scenario (EXP->RP system) you enable them to get CLOSE to 60 but your costs are STILL too far out of wack!
So the ideal? Here it is:
Enabling EXP->RP takes your item to lvl 50 naturally with little farming. NOW the player looks to see the cost and lo and behold! It costs only 100 zen for a blood ruby (50k RP), well thats LESS than $100, its actually only $60. Sign me up for THAT! BOOM $60 in cryptics pocket and now I have a nice Orange item.
THEN I move on to a new orange item. A belt or Neck for instance. Repeat the process. Level it partially via EXP while its easy. Get it to lvl 45 and BOOM $80 to finish it. Im happy, Cryptics Happy.
So it takes BOTH a reasonable RP charge (100 zen per Blood Ruby is about right) as well as a reasonable way to earn Rp IN GAME BY PLAYING (VIA our EXP system detailed here).
Its just silly you guys..... Currently the pricing is $600 PER orange item. $600!!!!!!!!!!
There is NO way to get RP in game and if you make it TOO good to get RP in game NOONE will buy. So you need a nice middle ground. You NEED to get the player CLOSE to max level on their OWN WITHOUT paying, then make it hard to FINISH it without paying so they take the shortcut and pay.
But for paying it cant be $400 or even $300 players wont pay this for ONE item - especially when the track record is that every 2-3 months its nerfed and worthless.
If you give players RP for every 1 EXP earned. You increase Drops from Chests and what not, they get CLOSE to max artifacts on their OWN. THATS where they dip into their wallets and pay.
$20-$30 gets you a new mount.
$20-30 doesnt even get you ONE artifact Level. Why would I do that?1
It's not just that they don't pay, they either leave or think of botting as well.
Or third party sales... Last time I checked it was like $10 per million of AD? Well you can pay $10 for 1M AD, go BUY 2000 zen and you just got your artifact item what, half off?
Or they turn to botting and use dragon horde enchants... Bound RP but use it and bam free item....
I think its pretty clear there is a BOT issue in this game since they made fixes to portals... Also all the 99 stacks of RP/echants? I mean cmon.... who really saves all their Peridots to post 10 stacks of x99 on the AH? Noone I know....
For artifacts, I'm not sure how many times more RP a level 120 artifact will require, but if it's 4 times as much for 120 vs. 100, I'd suggest increasing the value of peridots to 2,000 RP. I think this is simpler than creating a whole new set of items. This works for for artifacts because there's no overlap between the inputs (peri, etc.) and outputs (an artifact).
Overall I think the point of the level 12/120 stuff is to somewhat reset the end game, not make it impossible (sans cheating).
Beyond the basic numbers games, I've liked the suggestion for making the old dungeon chests have some RP rewards similar to the dread ring lair chests.
Close. Problem is farming is a far more profitable use of time than actually playing the game. Bots farm more efficiently than people, hence the issue.
Im very very sure that most of the PVP community did not pay cryptic directly for their orange items. Just saying.
Also Q3 results last year 2014, showed that PWE's profits were down 50% and they blamed their US operations (cryptic).
Ontop of that I spoke to a DEV who mentioned that a LARGE majority of their revenue comes from the Russian server. Huh, whats popular in the Russian server? Oh thats right... PVP! Hmmmm maybe there is a correlation there?
Id say that most of the PVP population here though has been fed through botted and exploited RP. What I mean, its no secret, that not that long ago RP was NOT bound. Bots were rampant and the cost for an orange was like 2.5 Mil AD.
Well shoot man... Players probably backed up the truck and bought some zen or maybe even third party AD and got legendary gear for like $40-50? each?
Now with all the unbound RP nearly quadrupled since the supply ran up. There is no other option for players.
So cryptic probably hardly made ANYTHING off all the PVPers with all the orange gear. (I know myself personally quit right after mod 4, sold all my enchants, when I came back about 2 weeks after mod 5 everything was like 1/3rd the price. Bought it all back and STILL had some AD left (like millions - I have mostly rank 10s), bought a ton of RP on the AH (like 15 mil RP for about 8mil AD) and also was given some RP from guild mates.) So from MY story alone, I have 4 orange pieces that required me to buy ZERO AD/zen from Cryptic.
Now what I did isnt plausible for a player. Sell ALL your enchants? If enchant prices had gone UP I would have been screwed and probably wouldnt have come back to the game TBH.
Prices went down, I saw I could bankroll my character with what I had and bought ALOT of unbound RP off the AH. You cant do that today.
Im 99% sure that unbound RP was Botted but I dont care, I wasnt gonna pay $600 per item. I had the AD, it was on the AH... Done deal.
Most of the sales I would imagine come from things like mounts or "packs" like the dragon born pack (which I did buy and REGRET!) I think that was the last contribution I made because shortly after you can now buy JUST the race - which is all I really wanted anyways....
So each time I actually do pony up and buy stuff from Cryptic, it gets nerfed, so I vowed never to buy again. Well I would end up buying if it was REASONABLE! Id rather go buy a second Xbox ONE and some free games for $600 than actually buy ONE orange piece though. Thats just beyond reasonable.
/end rant.
In all seriousness though, they need to fix this stuff because its about 400-800% TOO EXPENSIVE FOR ANYONE TO BUY IT!!!!!!!!!!
Whats better ONE sale for $600 or 100 sales for $60? Case Closed.