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Discussion: How can the Refining Points system be improved going into Mod 6?

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  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I have /tell always deactivated, because gold sellers keep on spamming me for some reason (10-15 different accounts per day is normal to me). I like my idea of having 9 boons from three campaigns better, since botters do not tend to have boons, just lvl 60 characters.

    It is something that was/is missing from WoD in my opinion. If it would require boons, there wouldn't be bots in tiamat.

    How would boons work on an EXP->RP system? I dont think you can do that.

    I dont even think you NEED to do that since bots cant sell EXP/RP.

    The only reason I said that was for the purpose of PLAYERS who want to bot EXP. Again, they dont even have to /tell its pretty obvious if your a bot or player. Another thing you could do is just "teleport" a player who is in a zone for too long.

    Its not that hard to tell who is botting and who isnt. The boon system wouldnt work since its only PLAYERS who bot their real accounts for EXP that would be scamming the system. So players would have boons.

    Tiamat will be a moot point come module 6.

    What I want to know is how the old modules will work with the new one. Wouldnt a player just be able to lvl to 70 using dailies from old modules?

    All in all, the EXP->RP system cant really be "botted" Only players who want to shortcut/abuse would be doing this and even if they did, their accounts would be fairly easy to spot. You could even just have some program that monitors the EXP earned each day, if a player crosses a threshhold, their account is flagged and looked into.

    The whole "BOT" thing is the reason the EXP system would be the best, because it cant be abused and sold easily.
  • sygfried94sygfried94 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 264 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    ayroux wrote: »
    ....

    I wonder if xp give RP would be sufficient. we don't know how much it will increase the RP needed.

    + Rp system can only work on artifact piece not enchant. and lvl 11-12 enchant probably also get a huge Rp requirement if it only follow previous lvl work.
    We can give idea's and not only one alone idea. maybe some look's better than other but can be way more difficult to do.

    You know an other thing easier than XP system and that come to same is each time you get your 250 kXP bonus it give you 25 opal attach to account. gain is same and till probably easier to implement since it's only the reward that is need to be work on.

    Also without taking enchant in consideration if all your equipment is already at full lvl where you XP goes ?. stock ? lost ?

    How ever i really think before any system, the first thing to think is what is a reasonnable delay of play and price to up each piece. Once it done what ever you have one or multi system to get RP dev only need to adjust the gain so you get it in the reasonnable delay

    Then we can make a compare of all added system, what is require or which lvl of drop is needed .
    if i take xp system : good point: hard to be used for gold farmer, you still can slowly up secondary toon with artifact . Bad point: probably not enough gain on main, not useable on enchant (this one can be both good and bad), not solve either the party point since you mainly gain xp by doing dailie
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  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    sygfried94 wrote: »
    I wonder if xp give RP would be sufficient. we don't know how much it will increase the RP needed.

    + Rp system can only work on artifact piece not enchant. and lvl 11-12 enchant probably also get a huge Rp requirement if it only follow previous lvl work.
    We can give idea's and not only one alone idea. maybe some look's better than other but can be way more difficult to do.

    You know an other thing easier than XP system and that come to same is each time you get your 250 kXP bonus it give you 25 opal attach to account. gain is same and till probably easier to implement since it's only the reward that is need to be work on.

    Also without taking enchant in consideration if all your equipment is already at full lvl where you XP goes ?. stock ? lost ?

    How ever i really think before any system, the first thing to think is what is a reasonnable delay of play and price to up each piece. Once it done what ever you have one or multi system to get RP dev only need to adjust the gain so you get it in the reasonnable delay

    Then we can make a compare of all added system, what is require or which lvl of drop is needed .
    if i take xp system : good point: hard to be used for gold farmer, you still can slowly up secondary toon with artifact . Bad point: probably not enough gain on main, not useable on enchant (this one can be both good and bad), not solve either the party point since you mainly gain xp by doing dailie

    I think the EXP -> RP would be available to all things. So it counts for RP towards artifacts, artifact equipment or enchants.

    At 60 we earn 4,300 per quest. Soon the max level will be 70 and I would imagine the average quest might give closer to 5k EXP.

    I like the idea of giving 25 Black Opals each "overflow" level. Thats a pretty easy way to code the EXP->RP system. That ratio may change with lvl 70 though. It may take 350k EXP to level so the number of black opals would need t be changed to 35.

    What I would be much more in favor of doing, since just granting a massive lump sum of Opals seems a tad weird, would be something similar to the "Refinement Sacks" as I mentioned before.

    So there would be 1 sack awarded for a daily quest, with an "average" of about 4-5K RP in each one.

    A "Dungeon delves" sack with an average of about 15-25k RP in each one

    Then a "Level" sack with an average of about 250k in each one.

    for Daily Quests you could just do:
    8-10 Peridots (60%)
    or
    4-5 Aquamarines (40%)

    then a DD "sack" would be:
    15-25 Aquamarines (60%)
    or
    2-3 Black Opals (40%)

    then a "Level up" sack would be:
    20-30 Black Opals (60%)
    or
    4-6 Blood Rubies (40%)

    So things like this so its more randomized and offer various rewards.

    So now this grants you multiple ways to earn RP, doing dungeons grants RP which also grants you EXP which grants you Rp.

    Doing dailies grants you RP which also gives EXP which every level up also grants RP.

    I think this would be enough and those RP stones can be used for ANY time of RP - meaning enchants, artifacts, arti-equip ETC.

    With enchants going to 12, and artifacts going to 120 there will be a massive cost for each of these levels and we will need a really solid method of collecting RP via in game to achieve this.

    The system here is akin to the RP->EXP system and would arguable take much less time to code. Just create the three "sacks"

    daily: Green
    DD Chest: Blue
    Level up: Epic

    With the drop rates and rewards as shown above. Done.

    Then you just need to add those items as rewards for quests/DD chests and level up rewards.
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  • colonelwingcolonelwing Member Posts: 1,448 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ayroux wrote: »
    The whole "BOT" thing is the reason the EXP system would be the best, because it cant be abused and sold easily.

    And who stops/prevents the players from botting exp? Your suggestion is too flawed, in my opinion. It takes me 5 minutes to create a script, with which i could theoretically 'farm' exp 24/7, in order to get rp. The suggestion may sound good at first, but if one takes a closer look... it would cause more harm than good.

  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    And who stops/prevents the players from botting exp? Your suggestion is too flawed, in my opinion. It takes me 5 minutes to create a script, with which i could theoretically 'farm' exp 24/7, in order to get rp. The suggestion may sound good at first, but if one takes a closer look... it would cause more harm than good.

    You can't stop botters without a detection system. Any move to stop botting that does not involve this only punishes regular players. Thus unless they work on a detection system, botting being a drawback should be taken off the table as a negative because in all efforts to stop botting, that have ever happened, no bots were ever stopped for long.
  • colonelwingcolonelwing Member Posts: 1,448 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    charononus wrote: »
    You can't stop botters without a detection system. Any move to stop botting that does not involve this only punishes regular players. Thus unless they work on a detection system, botting being a drawback should be taken off the table as a negative because in all efforts to stop botting, that have ever happened, no bots were ever stopped for long.

    And this is why i said 'the suggestion is too flawed'. I hope this won't never be considered a good idea or even implemented, tbh. His suggestion would actually encourage botting, which is an obvious, no-no.


    Take care.

  • grumblesmorfgrumblesmorf Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I love all these great ideas about making RP easier to obtain, but even just some simple QoL changes to the refinement process would be hugely welcome.

    - Let us put full stacks into the slots so that instead of spending an hour pouring all the RP I just bought to make my belt purple into the slots 5 at a time, I now spend a few minutes doing that. The system now is just so freaking inconvenient it's almost physically painful.

    - And when you want to put gear in there, the list of gear from the fill all slots button doesn't seem to be organized in any sort of meaningful way. Please make it so that the most recently picked up and identified items at the top of the list. Those are the ones I want to put in there. I don't like that they're all over the place and that I have to keep scrolling up and down to look for them while they're mixed in with the stuff I have in my bank for alternate sets and transmutes.

    - You make the things in my bank slots available from this fill all slots drop down menu, but not the things in my shared bank slots. Why? I farm a bunch of RP with dragon hoard enchants on 1 character and then I put them in my shared slots. I don't like that I have to run over to the bank first and grab these stacks in order to use them. Isn't the whole point of these shared bank slots that all your characters can have access to those things that you put in them?

    All these seem like small trivial changes, to me at least, but they would be hugely welcome improvements to make the process less clunky. I'm not even going to get into the issues with RP taking forever to acquire, but there are lots of great ideas here that I hope will be seriously considered. I especially love the XP into RP idea.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    And this is why i said 'the suggestion is too flawed'. I hope this won't never be considered a good idea or even implemented, tbh. His suggestion would actually encourage botting, which is an obvious, no-no.


    Take care.

    Anything outside of epic dungeons encourages botting. So unless you want to lock all rp into dungeon chests, every option including current, does.
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    And this is why i said 'the suggestion is too flawed'. I hope this won't never be considered a good idea or even implemented, tbh. His suggestion would actually encourage botting, which is an obvious, no-no.


    Take care.

    If this is what you believe then they might as well remove professions from the game. I know more players who bot professions and make literally hundreds of thousands of AD a day without even playing the game.

    ANYTHING you do in this game aside from just handing out a blood ruby in each DD chest is going to incentive botting. Heck I bet that even if you DID do that, you would get some guys who set up multiple Neverwinters on multiple computers to just BOT farm DD chests all day.

    With the over-gearing that can be done you cant even stop that.

    Even if players DO want to bot EXP, again I just dont see how its going to break the game. All the EXP is bound to that account, cannot be sold. Lets just say a player botted EXP all day and TRIPLED the amount of EXP over my current character.

    ALL this means is that while I am playing and would have accumulated 3.5m RP they would have accumulated 10.5M RP. Well guess what, congratz that they have enough for TWO orange items over my ONE orange item.

    Thats not game breaking at all.

    What is game breaking is earning 500k a day from Bot-professions. Guess what, you dont even have to log INTO the game to BOT professions either!

    Atleast if a person is going to BOT EXP they have to log into the game where you have a MUCH higher chance of spotting them or someone reporting them.

    There is literally zero you can do to avoid botting in nearly ANY game.

    Atleast the EXP->RP system makes it stay BOUND to that account without affecting the market. If someone is gonna cheat and BOT RP via EXP, they are probably the same type of person who would buy 3rd party instead of direct anyways, so lets be real about the fact that Cryptic isnt losing sales off those people and wether they BOT RP or buy it 3rd party the result is the same.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ayroux wrote: »
    Atleast the EXP->RP system makes it stay BOUND to that account without affecting the market. If someone is gonna cheat and BOT RP via EXP, they are probably the same type of person who would buy 3rd party instead of direct anyways, so lets be real about the fact that Cryptic isnt losing sales off those people and wether they BOT RP or buy it 3rd party the result is the same.

    Bingo. If someone needs to cheat to feel good about themselves, then they're always going to find a way to cheat.

    But the key to stopping bots is to stop them from making a profit off of activities that can be botted. Since earned EXP would be locked to the character that earned it, it's not worth farming since they can't sell it directly.

    And you're right, this is the kind of player who's going to do everything he can to NOT pay for anything, so why bother.

    What the current system is doing now is alienating potentially paying customers who feel like they're at a loss if they don't spend tons of money. Those are the players whose concerns should be addressed.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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  • zebularzebular Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
    edited January 2015
    Moderator Notice:

    Let's lay off the exploiting/cheating/botting commentary. The forums are not the place for that. Please stay ON TOPIC. Re-read the OP, not the replies. There's no need to pick apart people's opinion. Further replies of this nature will be removed and infractions issued as needed.

    Please do not reply to this moderator notice, for doing so is not allowed. Instead, contact us via Private Message to discuss forum moderation. Thanks!

    Safe travels,Archmage Zebular of Mystryl
    PWE Community Moderator
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    So from this entire thread the TWO seemingly "leading" trains of though are around:

    1) An EXP-> RP System
    2) Increased RP stone drops from playing.

    What else do you guys think can be done?
  • grumblesmorfgrumblesmorf Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    QoL improvements to the interface too.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ayroux wrote: »
    So from this entire thread the TWO seemingly "leading" trains of though are around:

    1) An EXP-> RP System
    2) Increased RP stone drops from playing.

    What else do you guys think can be done?

    I think those pretty much cover all the bases.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Yeah, I think that's a good 3rd one to add:

    1) EXP -> RP System
    2) Increase RP stones as rewards for completing content
    3) Quality of Life improvements to interface (refining stacks and refining items from the bank)
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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  • cheesegromitcheesegromit Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    1) EXP -> RP System

    Out of interest, since I've not had a chance to read up on the proposal. Can this system by adequately monetised by Crytic to the extent the the current RP system is? Bottom line being that if they can't make the same or more out of it is there any incentive for them to change the system.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    Out of interest, since I've not had a chance to read up on the proposal. Can this system by adequately monetised by Crytic to the extent the the current RP system is? Bottom line being that if they can't make the same or more out of it is there any incentive for them to change the system.

    Preventing an exodus of players is an indirect form of monetization.
    ayroux wrote: »
    So from this entire thread the TWO seemingly "leading" trains of though are around:

    1) An EXP-> RP System
    2) Increased RP stone drops from playing.

    What else do you guys think can be done?

    Surprised the devs haven't hired you yet.

    Anyway, like other people have said, a much better UI system. Bound-on-account black opals on difficult dungeons and skirmishes
  • sygfried94sygfried94 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 264 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    you also have a 4 point that solve party drop problem: making RP drop when party kill and not when you kill. or when a mob you attack is killed like other kind of drop
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  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Preventing an exodus of players is an indirect form of monetization.



    Surprised the devs haven't hired you yet.

    Anyway, like other people have said, a much better UI system. Bound-on-account black opals on difficult dungeons and skirmishes

    Heck Id even throw out there that 1st place in PVP should grab a black opal (bound) as well. Forget the Blue pvp tenacity gear that drops.

    1) Black Opal
    2) Aqua
    3) Aqua
    4) Peridot
    5) Peridot

    Now you might get more people to que for pvp too.
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  • khimera906khimera906 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Out of interest, since I've not had a chance to read up on the proposal. Can this system by adequately monetised by Crytic to the extent the the current RP system is? Bottom line being that if they can't make the same or more out of it is there any incentive for them to change the system.

    There's always an incentive in keeping the players happy - both paying and non paying, and hopefully the new system can not be monetized to the extent of the current one, because what they're trying to do now is just silly. That's why this thread, and many others like it exist. They're trying to push things too far, and it's not gonna kill their profits if they throw us a bone.
    The same people that buy Blood Rubies now, will buy them with any other system. Other people will never buy Blood Rubies no matter what Cryptic does. I'm willing to completely give up on Artifacts before I buy PR with real money, because it's something that I fell should not be monetized, but that's just me. Other people want their Artifacts now so they pay. We just need a system that gives us a way to refine our Artifacts at a steady rate - not in a day or a week or a month, but in the foreseeable future and without giving up on playing the game just to grind till our eyes bleed.

    We need a bit more than a little Peridot and White Pearl here and there, and lets stop talking about Black Opals like they're some holly grail of RP. The truth is you need many hundreds of Black Opals to refine all your Artifacts, so giving us one or two day is not asking for too much.
    A XP/RP system, coupled with the addition of refining stones as rewards for dailies and dungeons could bring thing the situation to a more reasonable level. Of course they can't overdo it with the rewards, so they can keep selling the Rubies in the Zen Store, but that's ok.
    I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
  • sygfried94sygfried94 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 264 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    blood ruby doesn't represent anything anymore. with the inflate of RP'S needed and the even more incoming in mod 6 blood ruby will have the very same value as a peridot add in term of RP while we were on mod 2. actual system is already too much and it partialy save by the fact that on V4 many use the low price of RP to up half of equipment i even gave up on farming and actually i'm connecting but with no will to play, PVP is only fun once every 10 match due to bad matchmatching, tiamat is already too much, farming for RP ? , playing with other teamate ? maybe but every one is bored with farming.
    Many gave up on the actual system and the fiew info post by dev look like new one is pushed far further that it even a moderator that open this tread.
    there is already 4 system purpose has long as it lower the required time they all can be good and you can push hundred more that will do the same. exemple: divide blood ruby price by ten or even by 20 with expected price of v6. it will be good and also rp on AH will also doop to be cheaper than blood rubis. daily can give RP what ever is it by experience or directly with item. you can inflate RP value on each RP item. you can put a new super dragon enchant that can drop blood ruby or even super bloody rubis (100 k), you can drop the RP needed with new v6 to actual lvl by reducing the amound need for actual availlable lvl. You can make a decrease reward on daily (ex first daily done give an opal, second and third an rubis, 4 and five and 6 an aquamarine attach to account or player. you increase the fact that is better to play more character but harder to automatise the full quest (it can be on mini dongeon quest only)

    as you see there can have many idea. the point and the purpose is to lower the time required to get to max lvl and to also trying to put each way of playing on a nearly same lvl of RP rewarding (not like today where you get 5 item in a 20 min dongeon run while you get 20-25 item by turning around in a low area mob lvl)
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    EDIT: I forgot EXP was cumulative.

    (Sorry if its hard to read)
    PTR%20EXP_zpswufdbkju.jpg

    Shows we will start with about 900k EXP cumulative, and need about 1 MIL EXP (so only about 100k exp) to hit 61.

    Quests also give 5k EXP at 60 in the new area.

    So actually I go back to the EXP:RP is a VERY FAIR deal.
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  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    macjae wrote: »
    That would really depend on just how much RP will be required to go from 60 to 80 and 100 to 120, or from rank 10 to rank 12, which they haven't shown us yet.

    Edited my post. Youll only earn about 140k EXP per level (will probably increase) maybe 69-70 is 250k who knows...
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  • khimera906khimera906 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    macjae wrote: »
    The HEs in the new zone drop r5s and some refining stones, and every skill node I've opened so far has had a decent amount of enchants too. Overall RP access from those things appear to be a bit better than in module 4/5.
    What kind or refining stones are we talking about? Enchantments from skill nodes hardly make any difference, considering that you're getting R3s and R4s and you need so much RP.
    I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
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