No offense, but no. Absolutely and definitely no. Any solution that includes botting or 3rd party involvement is not a solution, but an addition to the problem. Let them take the time they need and do it properly. I'd rather have no change until it's done right than inviting more bots to the game to function as a bandage. That bandage is deadly and in the end will be more the source of more infection than fixing the wound it was placed on in the first place.
The only "NOW" solution there is, is to recalculate the time it takes to get enough RP and adjust the RP drop rate to something reasonable in such a manner that farming RP is rewarding. The BoA is not an issue in this, as long as characters (including clerics) can fend for themselves.
Well I agree with you. Id rather have them delay mod 6 or even release mod 6 with more bugs to sort out as long as the community sees this "hope" or "change" of the RP system.
What I was saying is its the only "NOW" solution because even your adjustment of all the RP yadda yadda doesnt solve the issue. It just makes it harder to come back to and re-adjust.
This is why there really isnt a "NOW" solution. RP is such a MAJOR piece of end game it needs and deserves some adequate attention.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited January 2015
I know the devs have limited resources, which is why I designed the experience system to be a near replicate of the Black Ice system that's already in place. The frame work is there, the system just needs to track experience (which it already does) and pull that up in the exact same interface as Black Ice empowering, but with Artifacts and Artifact Equipment populated instead.
Yes, there's SOME work that's going to need to be done, but the foundation's already in place.
And this is why they would never do that. A much simpler way of doing it that doesn't aid botting would be to just lower the cost of Flawless Sapphires in the Wondrous Bazaar to 5k each and allow them to be bought in batches of five. I strongly doubt they'll take any such measures, because they don't seem to consider it an urgent issue.
I know the devs have limited resources, which is why I designed the experience system to be a near replicate of the Black Ice system that's already in place. T ..., but the foundation's already in place.
Id rather see that do 1 thing right at first. then having 10 but broken. As it was with mod 3-5. There was 0 change that went to positive. All are "hotfixes" that break more then they fix. Even with new mod 6 content we have plenty of will-be-broken stuff such as all thoose regen artifacts and wasted to get them to legendary RP.
RP and RP points grind is once again the top issue that separates good play with some donation against <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> boring grind vs crazy useless donations. Having lowered prices can help. Yet this is not the cure. It is the patch on top of current mess.
Literally there is no need to have new classes,new pvp, new levels if you are still gonna face same grind bottleneck that will make your game experience a work. Not the game to enjoy. (and willing to pay for)
bots in some way did saved mod 4 with RP being cheap. That allowed player to focus on game and other problems rather then utility play for grind.
And this is why they would never do that. A much simpler way of doing it that doesn't aid botting would be to just lower the cost of Flawless Sapphires in the Wondrous Bazaar to 5k each and allow them to be bought in batches of five. I strongly doubt they'll take any such measures, because they don't seem to consider it an urgent issue.
Well IMO the correct pricing would be:
7,500 for a flawless Sapphire and 200 zen per Blood Ruby with 3 Blood Ruby pack for 500 zen.
This means 500 zen for 150k RP or 200 zen for 50k RP.
For flawless if it takes 30 flawless sapphire to equal 500 zen.
This seems like a fair RoR per the $ spent.
This could also be a NOW system but I VERY much doubt the devs are willing to admit wrong pricing and drop prices to those amounts. I agree though they dont consider it an urgent issue and thus it wont happen pre-module 6 IMO.
All of this is why I really believe the EXP->RP system is THE solution to all of this. As Ironzerg79 put it, If you utilize the current mechanics in place on an existing system, it could work pretty easily.
Can we just have the bottom row of artifacts use RP and have wearable artifacts ( cloak, belt, etc ), be leveled by XP instead?
It's just too much, and the direction appears to having every wearable item be an artifact.
The company will still earn money by selling experience scrolls for those who want to speed things up a bit.
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shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2015
I like the exp/RP idea, i think it would be a vast improvement and encourage players to play the game more. But there's a very obvious problem with it.
Cryptic's primary goal is to make money. Any idea that replaces or changes the current refining system not only has to be able to make them money, it has to make at least as much as they make from selling Blood Rubies and the other over-priced RP stones in the zen shop.
And don't think just because the prices are laughably high that Cryptic are looking for a new business model. Remember how we laughed at coalescent ward prices? 1000 zen? Ha ha, ridiculous. Well they had the last laugh. And the way they've been squashing cheap refining stones has followed the exact same pattern.
Sure, the XP idea would sell more XP boosters, but will it be in addition to RP stones or instead of? I can see sales of blood rubies really dropping off, and players finding all sorts of ways to maximise XP accumulation for free. Great for player morale, great for game population, not so great for Cryptic's bottom line.
I really hope the devs do take the XP idea on board but I doubt it. Probably not many of you will remember this, but when this refining system was first put in place we were told the change was because not enough people were making use of enchant upgrading and they wanted to make a system that was more "fun and accessible". I kid you not. It's now the most complained about and despised part of the game. Their priorities (and I don't blame them for this, it is what is it) just aren't the same as the player base.
Look at the complex baroque cathedral that is Castle Never, then look at the empty parking lot design of Tiamat's Temple. I think the cost-cutting direction things are going is pretty self-evident.
I like the exp/RP idea, i think it would be a vast improvement and encourage players to play the game more. But there's a very obvious problem with it.
Cryptic's primary goal is to make money. Any idea that replaces or changes the current refining system not only has to be able to make them money, it has to make at least as much as they make from selling Blood Rubies and the other over-priced RP stones in the zen shop.
And don't think just because the prices are laughably high that Cryptic are looking for a new business model. Remember how we laughed at coalescent ward prices? 1000 zen? Ha ha, ridiculous. Well they had the last laugh. And the way they've been squashing cheap refining stones has followed the exact same pattern.
Sure, the XP idea would sell more XP boosters, but will it be in addition to RP stones or instead of? I can see sales of blood rubies really dropping off, and players finding all sorts of ways to maximise XP accumulation for free. Great for player morale, great for game population, not so great for Cryptic's bottom line.
I really hope the devs do take the XP idea on board but I doubt it. Probably not many of you will remember this, but when this refining system was first put in place we were told the change was because not enough people were making use of enchant upgrading and they wanted to make a system that was more "fun and accessible". I kid you not. It's now the most complained about and despised part of the game. Their priorities (and I don't blame them for this, it is what is it) just aren't the same as the player base.
Look at the complex baroque cathedral that is Castle Never, then look at the empty parking lot design of Tiamat's Temple. I think the cost-cutting direction things are going is pretty self-evident.
the problem with the refining point equipment artifact is also that you not restart on the same lvl as the other equipment if you want to change. we get the perfect example with tiamat. even with x2 refining point event you still loose 1.7 million RP per equipment and that with also AD cost by eventually getting equipment and upping it. That cumullate with the time required to get RP to up it and thing are simple by only farming and not doing anything else. i will not get enough before V6 come and i will have to restart. it even a character block if i want to start playing a new toon.
ADD that with all change they are doing where they want to up difficulty in a way that i may be back like 1 year before with a real 11k toon and you need to redo your whole equipment just to be able to redo dongeon that you were able to do..
Cry come on RP point with tiamat because the AH was compensating the up of RP requirement with cheap RP. RP accessiblity have to follow the requirement and it shouldn't be most reward in the worst content: farming low map
Also price of blood ruby haven't drop to follow RP requirement it is as it was on the beginning when RP was only required for enchant and max 3 artifact.
You know if they come as announced with no change on RP but with this drastic up again of requirement, there will probably have a massive leave on the server from the medium class player.
Actually we have time announce just done for previous and we can hope get some positive return
I like the exp/RP idea, i think it would be a vast improvement and encourage players to play the game more. But there's a very obvious problem with it.
Cryptic's primary goal is to make money. Any idea that replaces or changes the current refining system not only has to be able to make them money, it has to make at least as much as they make from selling Blood Rubies and the other over-priced RP stones in the zen shop.
And don't think just because the prices are laughably high that Cryptic are looking for a new business model. Remember how we laughed at coalescent ward prices? 1000 zen? Ha ha, ridiculous. Well they had the last laugh. And the way they've been squashing cheap refining stones has followed the exact same pattern.
Sure, the XP idea would sell more XP boosters, but will it be in addition to RP stones or instead of? I can see sales of blood rubies really dropping off, and players finding all sorts of ways to maximise XP accumulation for free. Great for player morale, great for game population, not so great for Cryptic's bottom line.
I really hope the devs do take the XP idea on board but I doubt it. Probably not many of you will remember this, but when this refining system was first put in place we were told the change was because not enough people were making use of enchant upgrading and they wanted to make a system that was more "fun and accessible". I kid you not. It's now the most complained about and despised part of the game. Their priorities (and I don't blame them for this, it is what is it) just aren't the same as the player base.
Look at the complex baroque cathedral that is Castle Never, then look at the empty parking lot design of Tiamat's Temple. I think the cost-cutting direction things are going is pretty self-evident.
Actually you can get coal wards by other means they are just Bound. But if you have professions you can actually get bound coal wards and use them.
Also the big difference between coal wards and RP is that you can take two greater enchants, buy coal ward and turn it into a perfect enchant, THEN turn around and sell the Perfect enchant. Or heck, use it for a while, get board of it, turn around and SELL it. So the $10 is "transferable". Its not "locked in" to THAT character.
With RP you spend $10 and it gets you what? 50k RP? Which is like 1/6th of ONE level in the 50s.... Also even if you did decide to spend $600 (yes it costs $600 for ONE orange item. ONE) its not as if you can buy the item, use it, get bored and sell it. You cant even transfer it to an ALT character!
What they need to realize is the RP system CAN work, except they need to make a REAL way to earn the item in the game by PLAYING the game, then they can offer a way to speed that up by paying.
This is where RP stones come in via zen. Also what they need to realize are MICRO-transactions. These by definition mean small amounts. Paying $20 for 150k RP is NOT a micro transaction. Also why would some who has a purple item lvl 56 pay $20 to not even level the item?!
Paying $10 for a coal ward, GETS you something.
Paying $20-$30 for a mount GETS you something.
Paying $20 for 3 Blood Rubies gets you NOTHING.
So the difference? This is why they NEED to price blood Rubies at 200 zen. Everytime you run the math this works out perfectly.
200zen = 1 Blood Ruby
500 zen = 3 blood Rubies
It takes 4,600,000 RP for an orange item. Currently its 2000 zen for 3 Blood Rubies. This means 2000 zen = 150k RP. This means $600. NOONE will pay for this.
200 zen for 1 or 500 for 3. Now you have 500 zen = 150k RP. Now your orange item costs about $150. This is MUCH more reasonable.
But even THAT wont get players to buy because youve revealed to them what is behind the "curtain" youve told them you cant get it unless you pay - because there is no viable way to PLAY the GAME (yes you can play the AH) but play the GAME to get RP.
So NOW what you need to do is provide a very SLOW way IN GAME to earn RP by PLAYING it.
The BEST solution to this is to give EXP->RP.
I have played my GWF for a LONG time. I dont recall when they made "overflow" EXP but I have only leveled up about 14 times (7 power points). By this ROUGH math this means I have earned (250k*14) = 3,500,000 EXP post-60.
Now think about that.
If I earn RP for every EXP I earn I would have 3.5M RP. That STILL wont get me ONE orange item. So its CLEARLY not too much.
But what that DOES do is makes me FEEL like I am earning alot of RP when in reality I am not.
Now you will have casual players who will all EASILY get to about lvl 45 in item level on artifact equipment. This only takes around 2 mil RP to do. But about HALF the cost (2.3M RP) is just from 45-60ish. So NOW those players will start seeing the really really slow progression. They log in day after day and barely can get 1 artifact item level. But they SEEM so close, only 10 levels away!
Thats where they look at 200 zen for blood ruby and think.... Wow I could invest $20 and get 600k RP! Thats nearly TWO levels on my artifact item! Thats like a week + worth of farming.
THATS where they buy. Because you let them get REALLY close, but made the last 10 levels SO difficult to level up. They can alost TASTE the orange item! Its right there at the end of their credit card.
Someone will not buy RP to get an item from green to purple. But they WILL buy RP to take that item from lvl 52 to level 60. Because its SEEMS to close.
Now you have kep the player behind that curtain by ALMOST giving them what they want for free, just for playing the game, for earning EXP, but you disguse it behind the mountain of RP required to get the last few levels. Just when they are SO CLOSE! They cave to give you $20 or $40 to skip a few levels.
THATS how you get them to buy. Not by asking for $20 for HALF a level..... Noone will do that. I can go buy an XBOX and a brand new game for the cost it takes to buy zen and get an item from 50-60.
It would be different if artifact items were SUPER rare, dropped AS orange, and then were able to sell on the AH. Then you would see artifact items as orange sell for 20 million easily. This gives you the ~SAME real money cost and it would justify that price, because its RARE. But since they dont drop, they are not rare (everyone has greens/blues purple versions) and the ONLY way to level it up is to pay.
THIS is where the pricing model falls apart.
EXP->RP is NOWHERE NEAR a "free handout" that will cannibalize sales. If anything its just a "free taste" that players get to make them WANT more.
Fully, wholly, totally support lew and zergs proposals. Well thought out, intelligent and fair. For the players and the developers.
That said, not a chance in the world that it happens.
New artifact and enchantment levels announced without a peep about any changes to the system. Folks, this has been an ongoing issue for a while now.
The refinement system is exactly what it is supposed to be. It's supposed to take you away from playing the game the way you want to play it. It's supposed to be irksome/bothersome. The whole idea is to get the player to spend money to relieve some of the irritation or make it go away altogether.
It's a shame, there's really some GREAT ideas shared here, however, the dev's aren't in the least bit interested in utilizing a one of them.
Fully, wholly, totally support lew and zergs proposals. Well thought out, intelligent and fair. For the players and the developers.
That said, not a chance in the world that it happens.
New artifact and enchantment levels announced without a peep about any changes to the system. Folks, this has been an ongoing issue for a while now.
The refinement system is exactly what it is supposed to be. It's supposed to take you away from playing the game the way you want to play it. It's supposed to be irksome/bothersome. The whole idea is to get the player to spend money to relieve some of the irritation or make it go away altogether.
It's a shame, there's really some GREAT ideas shared here, however, the dev's aren't in the least bit interested in utilizing a one of them.
I want to stress--again--that the devs haven't put all their cards on the table for mod 6 yet. We've had one cycle of patch notes with mod 6 still being on the horizon and no release date yet. For all we know, they DO have something in the works, however, the aim of this thread is that, with mod 6 being on preview and the devs watching the preview forums for feedback, that some word gets out about the RP system, how the players are unhappy with it, and some changes that can be suggested.
So, simply because they've announced that the levels will be going up and nothing about the RP system does not necessarily equate to nothing in the works. This is just an attempt for some visibility at a critical moment.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
So, simply because they've announced that the levels will be going up and nothing about the RP system does not necessarily equate to nothing in the works. This is just an attempt for some visibility at a critical moment.
I agree. Let's keep the thread constructive. Posts about how the Devs don't care and aren't going to do anything doesn't help.
Because they DO care, and I'm sure they WANT to refinement to feel like something that's engaging and rewarding.
Some people were saying that skill nodes in the new area had rank 5s at least. It remains to be seen what they've done so far, but that doesn't mean the player base shouldn't keep emphasizing how important a quality of life improvement it would be to get better access to refining points/materials and, ideally, a better interface.
I wonder how they are going to prevent bots from constantly farming said nodes, before an actual player does. I've seen this happenning in the past and it was not the best experience, i had in this game.
Increasing entry requirements for the new zones would make them harder to farm with bots, since each would require a much larger investment to get there. Regardless, botting is mainly a problem for the company's bottom line, not players, who benefit from the lower prices in the AH. They could solve the issue of botting by making certain forms of rewards much more profitable, but that wouldn't help them monetize it. So they're sort of stuck trying to keep a ship floating while leaking in both ends.
True, perhaps they could make it require the first three boons of, Sharandar + Dread ring + either ToD or IWD, which are easily obtainable in my opinion.
If they implement the EXP->RP issue BOTs cant really abuse that... You can "bot" farm EXP all day, however, I would imagine those accounts are much easier to catch. Just have someone/something watching for any player who spends more than 6-8 hours in game. Send them a /tell and if they dont respond, ban them. Pretty easy.
there is really no way to "scam" the EXP->RP system and it offers literally the PERFECT amount of "natural" RP. It gives just enough to make players feel like they are progressing without giving them too much for them to avoid buying RP stones.
A large part of the RP stone issue is the current zen pricing. I have detailed this one page back so I wont go into it again.
The EXP->RP system is what REALLY can solve all of this issue. Then if they want to speed up or slow down RP gain they can mess with and monetize the EXP rate.
If you think about it, if you can get a player to spend $60 each module release thats a pretty big win for the company. Thats the same amount you get from a full fledged box release, every 4 months ish.
So how do you get payers to give you $60?
Mounts is 1 way. Things like Coal Wards are another. The easiest one though is RP. Currently NOONE is going to give you $60 for RP though.
Why?
$60 gets you 9 Blood Rubies. This is only 450k RP. Which translates to about 1-1.5 levels of artifact equipment. That is a HORRIBLE Return on Investment for the player.
If $60 got them more like 1,800,000 RP (using 500zen = 3 BRs) Now THAT is $60 and enough to take your purple item from ~ lvl 50 to lvl 60.
So you basically need to find a way to get the player to lvl 45-50 ish naturally without spending cash. THEN they will look to drop $60 to push it the rest of the way. A player is much more willing to spend some money to FINISH something if they feel they have done most of the work (i.e. player farms an item to 50. Pays $60 to finish it to lvl 60) Or another would be (players are much more likely to play module 1 about 2/3rds of the way, then look to PAY $10-$20 to FINISH out the module, rather than pay for the FULL thing)
If they implement the EXP->RP issue BOTs cant really abuse that... You can "bot" farm EXP all day, however, I would imagine those accounts are much easier to catch. Just have someone/something watching for any player who spends more than 6-8 hours in game. Send them a /tell and if they dont respond, ban them. Pretty easy.
I have /tell always deactivated, because gold sellers keep on spamming me for some reason (10-15 different accounts per day is normal to me). I like my idea of having 9 boons from three campaigns better, since botters do not tend to have boons, just lvl 60 characters.
It is something that was/is missing from WoD in my opinion. If it would require boons, there wouldn't be bots in tiamat.
I have /tell always deactivated, because gold sellers keep on spamming me for some reason (10-15 different accounts per day is normal to me). I like my idea of having 9 boons from three campaigns better, since botters do not tend to have boons, just lvl 60 characters.
It is something that was/is missing from WoD in my opinion. If it would require boons, there wouldn't be bots in tiamat.
How would boons work on an EXP->RP system? I dont think you can do that.
I dont even think you NEED to do that since bots cant sell EXP/RP.
The only reason I said that was for the purpose of PLAYERS who want to bot EXP. Again, they dont even have to /tell its pretty obvious if your a bot or player. Another thing you could do is just "teleport" a player who is in a zone for too long.
Its not that hard to tell who is botting and who isnt. The boon system wouldnt work since its only PLAYERS who bot their real accounts for EXP that would be scamming the system. So players would have boons.
Tiamat will be a moot point come module 6.
What I want to know is how the old modules will work with the new one. Wouldnt a player just be able to lvl to 70 using dailies from old modules?
All in all, the EXP->RP system cant really be "botted" Only players who want to shortcut/abuse would be doing this and even if they did, their accounts would be fairly easy to spot. You could even just have some program that monitors the EXP earned each day, if a player crosses a threshhold, their account is flagged and looked into.
The whole "BOT" thing is the reason the EXP system would be the best, because it cant be abused and sold easily.
I wonder if xp give RP would be sufficient. we don't know how much it will increase the RP needed.
+ Rp system can only work on artifact piece not enchant. and lvl 11-12 enchant probably also get a huge Rp requirement if it only follow previous lvl work.
We can give idea's and not only one alone idea. maybe some look's better than other but can be way more difficult to do.
You know an other thing easier than XP system and that come to same is each time you get your 250 kXP bonus it give you 25 opal attach to account. gain is same and till probably easier to implement since it's only the reward that is need to be work on.
Also without taking enchant in consideration if all your equipment is already at full lvl where you XP goes ?. stock ? lost ?
How ever i really think before any system, the first thing to think is what is a reasonnable delay of play and price to up each piece. Once it done what ever you have one or multi system to get RP dev only need to adjust the gain so you get it in the reasonnable delay
Then we can make a compare of all added system, what is require or which lvl of drop is needed .
if i take xp system : good point: hard to be used for gold farmer, you still can slowly up secondary toon with artifact . Bad point: probably not enough gain on main, not useable on enchant (this one can be both good and bad), not solve either the party point since you mainly gain xp by doing dailie
I wonder if xp give RP would be sufficient. we don't know how much it will increase the RP needed.
+ Rp system can only work on artifact piece not enchant. and lvl 11-12 enchant probably also get a huge Rp requirement if it only follow previous lvl work.
We can give idea's and not only one alone idea. maybe some look's better than other but can be way more difficult to do.
You know an other thing easier than XP system and that come to same is each time you get your 250 kXP bonus it give you 25 opal attach to account. gain is same and till probably easier to implement since it's only the reward that is need to be work on.
Also without taking enchant in consideration if all your equipment is already at full lvl where you XP goes ?. stock ? lost ?
How ever i really think before any system, the first thing to think is what is a reasonnable delay of play and price to up each piece. Once it done what ever you have one or multi system to get RP dev only need to adjust the gain so you get it in the reasonnable delay
Then we can make a compare of all added system, what is require or which lvl of drop is needed .
if i take xp system : good point: hard to be used for gold farmer, you still can slowly up secondary toon with artifact . Bad point: probably not enough gain on main, not useable on enchant (this one can be both good and bad), not solve either the party point since you mainly gain xp by doing dailie
I think the EXP -> RP would be available to all things. So it counts for RP towards artifacts, artifact equipment or enchants.
At 60 we earn 4,300 per quest. Soon the max level will be 70 and I would imagine the average quest might give closer to 5k EXP.
I like the idea of giving 25 Black Opals each "overflow" level. Thats a pretty easy way to code the EXP->RP system. That ratio may change with lvl 70 though. It may take 350k EXP to level so the number of black opals would need t be changed to 35.
What I would be much more in favor of doing, since just granting a massive lump sum of Opals seems a tad weird, would be something similar to the "Refinement Sacks" as I mentioned before.
So there would be 1 sack awarded for a daily quest, with an "average" of about 4-5K RP in each one.
A "Dungeon delves" sack with an average of about 15-25k RP in each one
Then a "Level" sack with an average of about 250k in each one.
for Daily Quests you could just do:
8-10 Peridots (60%)
or
4-5 Aquamarines (40%)
then a DD "sack" would be:
15-25 Aquamarines (60%)
or
2-3 Black Opals (40%)
then a "Level up" sack would be:
20-30 Black Opals (60%)
or
4-6 Blood Rubies (40%)
So things like this so its more randomized and offer various rewards.
So now this grants you multiple ways to earn RP, doing dungeons grants RP which also grants you EXP which grants you Rp.
Doing dailies grants you RP which also gives EXP which every level up also grants RP.
I think this would be enough and those RP stones can be used for ANY time of RP - meaning enchants, artifacts, arti-equip ETC.
With enchants going to 12, and artifacts going to 120 there will be a massive cost for each of these levels and we will need a really solid method of collecting RP via in game to achieve this.
The system here is akin to the RP->EXP system and would arguable take much less time to code. Just create the three "sacks"
daily: Green
DD Chest: Blue
Level up: Epic
With the drop rates and rewards as shown above. Done.
Then you just need to add those items as rewards for quests/DD chests and level up rewards.
The whole "BOT" thing is the reason the EXP system would be the best, because it cant be abused and sold easily.
And who stops/prevents the players from botting exp? Your suggestion is too flawed, in my opinion. It takes me 5 minutes to create a script, with which i could theoretically 'farm' exp 24/7, in order to get rp. The suggestion may sound good at first, but if one takes a closer look... it would cause more harm than good.
And who stops/prevents the players from botting exp? Your suggestion is too flawed, in my opinion. It takes me 5 minutes to create a script, with which i could theoretically 'farm' exp 24/7, in order to get rp. The suggestion may sound good at first, but if one takes a closer look... it would cause more harm than good.
You can't stop botters without a detection system. Any move to stop botting that does not involve this only punishes regular players. Thus unless they work on a detection system, botting being a drawback should be taken off the table as a negative because in all efforts to stop botting, that have ever happened, no bots were ever stopped for long.
You can't stop botters without a detection system. Any move to stop botting that does not involve this only punishes regular players. Thus unless they work on a detection system, botting being a drawback should be taken off the table as a negative because in all efforts to stop botting, that have ever happened, no bots were ever stopped for long.
And this is why i said 'the suggestion is too flawed'. I hope this won't never be considered a good idea or even implemented, tbh. His suggestion would actually encourage botting, which is an obvious, no-no.
I love all these great ideas about making RP easier to obtain, but even just some simple QoL changes to the refinement process would be hugely welcome.
- Let us put full stacks into the slots so that instead of spending an hour pouring all the RP I just bought to make my belt purple into the slots 5 at a time, I now spend a few minutes doing that. The system now is just so freaking inconvenient it's almost physically painful.
- And when you want to put gear in there, the list of gear from the fill all slots button doesn't seem to be organized in any sort of meaningful way. Please make it so that the most recently picked up and identified items at the top of the list. Those are the ones I want to put in there. I don't like that they're all over the place and that I have to keep scrolling up and down to look for them while they're mixed in with the stuff I have in my bank for alternate sets and transmutes.
- You make the things in my bank slots available from this fill all slots drop down menu, but not the things in my shared bank slots. Why? I farm a bunch of RP with dragon hoard enchants on 1 character and then I put them in my shared slots. I don't like that I have to run over to the bank first and grab these stacks in order to use them. Isn't the whole point of these shared bank slots that all your characters can have access to those things that you put in them?
All these seem like small trivial changes, to me at least, but they would be hugely welcome improvements to make the process less clunky. I'm not even going to get into the issues with RP taking forever to acquire, but there are lots of great ideas here that I hope will be seriously considered. I especially love the XP into RP idea.
And this is why i said 'the suggestion is too flawed'. I hope this won't never be considered a good idea or even implemented, tbh. His suggestion would actually encourage botting, which is an obvious, no-no.
Take care.
Anything outside of epic dungeons encourages botting. So unless you want to lock all rp into dungeon chests, every option including current, does.
And this is why i said 'the suggestion is too flawed'. I hope this won't never be considered a good idea or even implemented, tbh. His suggestion would actually encourage botting, which is an obvious, no-no.
Take care.
If this is what you believe then they might as well remove professions from the game. I know more players who bot professions and make literally hundreds of thousands of AD a day without even playing the game.
ANYTHING you do in this game aside from just handing out a blood ruby in each DD chest is going to incentive botting. Heck I bet that even if you DID do that, you would get some guys who set up multiple Neverwinters on multiple computers to just BOT farm DD chests all day.
With the over-gearing that can be done you cant even stop that.
Even if players DO want to bot EXP, again I just dont see how its going to break the game. All the EXP is bound to that account, cannot be sold. Lets just say a player botted EXP all day and TRIPLED the amount of EXP over my current character.
ALL this means is that while I am playing and would have accumulated 3.5m RP they would have accumulated 10.5M RP. Well guess what, congratz that they have enough for TWO orange items over my ONE orange item.
Thats not game breaking at all.
What is game breaking is earning 500k a day from Bot-professions. Guess what, you dont even have to log INTO the game to BOT professions either!
Atleast if a person is going to BOT EXP they have to log into the game where you have a MUCH higher chance of spotting them or someone reporting them.
There is literally zero you can do to avoid botting in nearly ANY game.
Atleast the EXP->RP system makes it stay BOUND to that account without affecting the market. If someone is gonna cheat and BOT RP via EXP, they are probably the same type of person who would buy 3rd party instead of direct anyways, so lets be real about the fact that Cryptic isnt losing sales off those people and wether they BOT RP or buy it 3rd party the result is the same.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Atleast the EXP->RP system makes it stay BOUND to that account without affecting the market. If someone is gonna cheat and BOT RP via EXP, they are probably the same type of person who would buy 3rd party instead of direct anyways, so lets be real about the fact that Cryptic isnt losing sales off those people and wether they BOT RP or buy it 3rd party the result is the same.
Bingo. If someone needs to cheat to feel good about themselves, then they're always going to find a way to cheat.
But the key to stopping bots is to stop them from making a profit off of activities that can be botted. Since earned EXP would be locked to the character that earned it, it's not worth farming since they can't sell it directly.
And you're right, this is the kind of player who's going to do everything he can to NOT pay for anything, so why bother.
What the current system is doing now is alienating potentially paying customers who feel like they're at a loss if they don't spend tons of money. Those are the players whose concerns should be addressed.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited January 2015
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Comments
Well I agree with you. Id rather have them delay mod 6 or even release mod 6 with more bugs to sort out as long as the community sees this "hope" or "change" of the RP system.
What I was saying is its the only "NOW" solution because even your adjustment of all the RP yadda yadda doesnt solve the issue. It just makes it harder to come back to and re-adjust.
This is why there really isnt a "NOW" solution. RP is such a MAJOR piece of end game it needs and deserves some adequate attention.
Yes, there's SOME work that's going to need to be done, but the foundation's already in place.
Id rather see that do 1 thing right at first. then having 10 but broken. As it was with mod 3-5. There was 0 change that went to positive. All are "hotfixes" that break more then they fix. Even with new mod 6 content we have plenty of will-be-broken stuff such as all thoose regen artifacts and wasted to get them to legendary RP.
RP and RP points grind is once again the top issue that separates good play with some donation against <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> boring grind vs crazy useless donations. Having lowered prices can help. Yet this is not the cure. It is the patch on top of current mess.
Literally there is no need to have new classes,new pvp, new levels if you are still gonna face same grind bottleneck that will make your game experience a work. Not the game to enjoy. (and willing to pay for)
bots in some way did saved mod 4 with RP being cheap. That allowed player to focus on game and other problems rather then utility play for grind.
Well IMO the correct pricing would be:
7,500 for a flawless Sapphire and 200 zen per Blood Ruby with 3 Blood Ruby pack for 500 zen.
This means 500 zen for 150k RP or 200 zen for 50k RP.
For flawless if it takes 30 flawless sapphire to equal 500 zen.
This seems like a fair RoR per the $ spent.
This could also be a NOW system but I VERY much doubt the devs are willing to admit wrong pricing and drop prices to those amounts. I agree though they dont consider it an urgent issue and thus it wont happen pre-module 6 IMO.
All of this is why I really believe the EXP->RP system is THE solution to all of this. As Ironzerg79 put it, If you utilize the current mechanics in place on an existing system, it could work pretty easily.
It's just too much, and the direction appears to having every wearable item be an artifact.
The company will still earn money by selling experience scrolls for those who want to speed things up a bit.
Cryptic's primary goal is to make money. Any idea that replaces or changes the current refining system not only has to be able to make them money, it has to make at least as much as they make from selling Blood Rubies and the other over-priced RP stones in the zen shop.
And don't think just because the prices are laughably high that Cryptic are looking for a new business model. Remember how we laughed at coalescent ward prices? 1000 zen? Ha ha, ridiculous. Well they had the last laugh. And the way they've been squashing cheap refining stones has followed the exact same pattern.
Sure, the XP idea would sell more XP boosters, but will it be in addition to RP stones or instead of? I can see sales of blood rubies really dropping off, and players finding all sorts of ways to maximise XP accumulation for free. Great for player morale, great for game population, not so great for Cryptic's bottom line.
I really hope the devs do take the XP idea on board but I doubt it. Probably not many of you will remember this, but when this refining system was first put in place we were told the change was because not enough people were making use of enchant upgrading and they wanted to make a system that was more "fun and accessible". I kid you not. It's now the most complained about and despised part of the game. Their priorities (and I don't blame them for this, it is what is it) just aren't the same as the player base.
Look at the complex baroque cathedral that is Castle Never, then look at the empty parking lot design of Tiamat's Temple. I think the cost-cutting direction things are going is pretty self-evident.
the problem with the refining point equipment artifact is also that you not restart on the same lvl as the other equipment if you want to change. we get the perfect example with tiamat. even with x2 refining point event you still loose 1.7 million RP per equipment and that with also AD cost by eventually getting equipment and upping it. That cumullate with the time required to get RP to up it and thing are simple by only farming and not doing anything else. i will not get enough before V6 come and i will have to restart. it even a character block if i want to start playing a new toon.
ADD that with all change they are doing where they want to up difficulty in a way that i may be back like 1 year before with a real 11k toon and you need to redo your whole equipment just to be able to redo dongeon that you were able to do..
Cry come on RP point with tiamat because the AH was compensating the up of RP requirement with cheap RP. RP accessiblity have to follow the requirement and it shouldn't be most reward in the worst content: farming low map
Also price of blood ruby haven't drop to follow RP requirement it is as it was on the beginning when RP was only required for enchant and max 3 artifact.
You know if they come as announced with no change on RP but with this drastic up again of requirement, there will probably have a massive leave on the server from the medium class player.
Actually we have time announce just done for previous and we can hope get some positive return
Actually you can get coal wards by other means they are just Bound. But if you have professions you can actually get bound coal wards and use them.
Also the big difference between coal wards and RP is that you can take two greater enchants, buy coal ward and turn it into a perfect enchant, THEN turn around and sell the Perfect enchant. Or heck, use it for a while, get board of it, turn around and SELL it. So the $10 is "transferable". Its not "locked in" to THAT character.
With RP you spend $10 and it gets you what? 50k RP? Which is like 1/6th of ONE level in the 50s.... Also even if you did decide to spend $600 (yes it costs $600 for ONE orange item. ONE) its not as if you can buy the item, use it, get bored and sell it. You cant even transfer it to an ALT character!
What they need to realize is the RP system CAN work, except they need to make a REAL way to earn the item in the game by PLAYING the game, then they can offer a way to speed that up by paying.
This is where RP stones come in via zen. Also what they need to realize are MICRO-transactions. These by definition mean small amounts. Paying $20 for 150k RP is NOT a micro transaction. Also why would some who has a purple item lvl 56 pay $20 to not even level the item?!
Paying $10 for a coal ward, GETS you something.
Paying $20-$30 for a mount GETS you something.
Paying $20 for 3 Blood Rubies gets you NOTHING.
So the difference? This is why they NEED to price blood Rubies at 200 zen. Everytime you run the math this works out perfectly.
200zen = 1 Blood Ruby
500 zen = 3 blood Rubies
It takes 4,600,000 RP for an orange item. Currently its 2000 zen for 3 Blood Rubies. This means 2000 zen = 150k RP. This means $600. NOONE will pay for this.
200 zen for 1 or 500 for 3. Now you have 500 zen = 150k RP. Now your orange item costs about $150. This is MUCH more reasonable.
But even THAT wont get players to buy because youve revealed to them what is behind the "curtain" youve told them you cant get it unless you pay - because there is no viable way to PLAY the GAME (yes you can play the AH) but play the GAME to get RP.
So NOW what you need to do is provide a very SLOW way IN GAME to earn RP by PLAYING it.
The BEST solution to this is to give EXP->RP.
I have played my GWF for a LONG time. I dont recall when they made "overflow" EXP but I have only leveled up about 14 times (7 power points). By this ROUGH math this means I have earned (250k*14) = 3,500,000 EXP post-60.
Now think about that.
If I earn RP for every EXP I earn I would have 3.5M RP. That STILL wont get me ONE orange item. So its CLEARLY not too much.
But what that DOES do is makes me FEEL like I am earning alot of RP when in reality I am not.
Now you will have casual players who will all EASILY get to about lvl 45 in item level on artifact equipment. This only takes around 2 mil RP to do. But about HALF the cost (2.3M RP) is just from 45-60ish. So NOW those players will start seeing the really really slow progression. They log in day after day and barely can get 1 artifact item level. But they SEEM so close, only 10 levels away!
Thats where they look at 200 zen for blood ruby and think.... Wow I could invest $20 and get 600k RP! Thats nearly TWO levels on my artifact item! Thats like a week + worth of farming.
THATS where they buy. Because you let them get REALLY close, but made the last 10 levels SO difficult to level up. They can alost TASTE the orange item! Its right there at the end of their credit card.
Someone will not buy RP to get an item from green to purple. But they WILL buy RP to take that item from lvl 52 to level 60. Because its SEEMS to close.
Now you have kep the player behind that curtain by ALMOST giving them what they want for free, just for playing the game, for earning EXP, but you disguse it behind the mountain of RP required to get the last few levels. Just when they are SO CLOSE! They cave to give you $20 or $40 to skip a few levels.
THATS how you get them to buy. Not by asking for $20 for HALF a level..... Noone will do that. I can go buy an XBOX and a brand new game for the cost it takes to buy zen and get an item from 50-60.
It would be different if artifact items were SUPER rare, dropped AS orange, and then were able to sell on the AH. Then you would see artifact items as orange sell for 20 million easily. This gives you the ~SAME real money cost and it would justify that price, because its RARE. But since they dont drop, they are not rare (everyone has greens/blues purple versions) and the ONLY way to level it up is to pay.
THIS is where the pricing model falls apart.
EXP->RP is NOWHERE NEAR a "free handout" that will cannibalize sales. If anything its just a "free taste" that players get to make them WANT more.
That said, not a chance in the world that it happens.
New artifact and enchantment levels announced without a peep about any changes to the system. Folks, this has been an ongoing issue for a while now.
The refinement system is exactly what it is supposed to be. It's supposed to take you away from playing the game the way you want to play it. It's supposed to be irksome/bothersome. The whole idea is to get the player to spend money to relieve some of the irritation or make it go away altogether.
It's a shame, there's really some GREAT ideas shared here, however, the dev's aren't in the least bit interested in utilizing a one of them.
I want to stress--again--that the devs haven't put all their cards on the table for mod 6 yet. We've had one cycle of patch notes with mod 6 still being on the horizon and no release date yet. For all we know, they DO have something in the works, however, the aim of this thread is that, with mod 6 being on preview and the devs watching the preview forums for feedback, that some word gets out about the RP system, how the players are unhappy with it, and some changes that can be suggested.
So, simply because they've announced that the levels will be going up and nothing about the RP system does not necessarily equate to nothing in the works. This is just an attempt for some visibility at a critical moment.
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I agree. Let's keep the thread constructive. Posts about how the Devs don't care and aren't going to do anything doesn't help.
Because they DO care, and I'm sure they WANT to refinement to feel like something that's engaging and rewarding.
RP stone drop table added to invocation
RP stones purchaseable with Raw black ice or rough AD
Raw AD would break the game. Too many ppl run max leadership and have millions of raw AD. The only thing making it reasonable is the daily refine max
I wonder how they are going to prevent bots from constantly farming said nodes, before an actual player does. I've seen this happenning in the past and it was not the best experience, i had in this game.
They won't. Expect R5s to be the new R4s. If Aquamarines replace Peridots in the loot table as well, same applies to them.
True, perhaps they could make it require the first three boons of, Sharandar + Dread ring + either ToD or IWD, which are easily obtainable in my opinion.
there is really no way to "scam" the EXP->RP system and it offers literally the PERFECT amount of "natural" RP. It gives just enough to make players feel like they are progressing without giving them too much for them to avoid buying RP stones.
A large part of the RP stone issue is the current zen pricing. I have detailed this one page back so I wont go into it again.
The EXP->RP system is what REALLY can solve all of this issue. Then if they want to speed up or slow down RP gain they can mess with and monetize the EXP rate.
If you think about it, if you can get a player to spend $60 each module release thats a pretty big win for the company. Thats the same amount you get from a full fledged box release, every 4 months ish.
So how do you get payers to give you $60?
Mounts is 1 way. Things like Coal Wards are another. The easiest one though is RP. Currently NOONE is going to give you $60 for RP though.
Why?
$60 gets you 9 Blood Rubies. This is only 450k RP. Which translates to about 1-1.5 levels of artifact equipment. That is a HORRIBLE Return on Investment for the player.
If $60 got them more like 1,800,000 RP (using 500zen = 3 BRs) Now THAT is $60 and enough to take your purple item from ~ lvl 50 to lvl 60.
So you basically need to find a way to get the player to lvl 45-50 ish naturally without spending cash. THEN they will look to drop $60 to push it the rest of the way. A player is much more willing to spend some money to FINISH something if they feel they have done most of the work (i.e. player farms an item to 50. Pays $60 to finish it to lvl 60) Or another would be (players are much more likely to play module 1 about 2/3rds of the way, then look to PAY $10-$20 to FINISH out the module, rather than pay for the FULL thing)
I have /tell always deactivated, because gold sellers keep on spamming me for some reason (10-15 different accounts per day is normal to me). I like my idea of having 9 boons from three campaigns better, since botters do not tend to have boons, just lvl 60 characters.
It is something that was/is missing from WoD in my opinion. If it would require boons, there wouldn't be bots in tiamat.
How would boons work on an EXP->RP system? I dont think you can do that.
I dont even think you NEED to do that since bots cant sell EXP/RP.
The only reason I said that was for the purpose of PLAYERS who want to bot EXP. Again, they dont even have to /tell its pretty obvious if your a bot or player. Another thing you could do is just "teleport" a player who is in a zone for too long.
Its not that hard to tell who is botting and who isnt. The boon system wouldnt work since its only PLAYERS who bot their real accounts for EXP that would be scamming the system. So players would have boons.
Tiamat will be a moot point come module 6.
What I want to know is how the old modules will work with the new one. Wouldnt a player just be able to lvl to 70 using dailies from old modules?
All in all, the EXP->RP system cant really be "botted" Only players who want to shortcut/abuse would be doing this and even if they did, their accounts would be fairly easy to spot. You could even just have some program that monitors the EXP earned each day, if a player crosses a threshhold, their account is flagged and looked into.
The whole "BOT" thing is the reason the EXP system would be the best, because it cant be abused and sold easily.
I wonder if xp give RP would be sufficient. we don't know how much it will increase the RP needed.
+ Rp system can only work on artifact piece not enchant. and lvl 11-12 enchant probably also get a huge Rp requirement if it only follow previous lvl work.
We can give idea's and not only one alone idea. maybe some look's better than other but can be way more difficult to do.
You know an other thing easier than XP system and that come to same is each time you get your 250 kXP bonus it give you 25 opal attach to account. gain is same and till probably easier to implement since it's only the reward that is need to be work on.
Also without taking enchant in consideration if all your equipment is already at full lvl where you XP goes ?. stock ? lost ?
How ever i really think before any system, the first thing to think is what is a reasonnable delay of play and price to up each piece. Once it done what ever you have one or multi system to get RP dev only need to adjust the gain so you get it in the reasonnable delay
Then we can make a compare of all added system, what is require or which lvl of drop is needed .
if i take xp system : good point: hard to be used for gold farmer, you still can slowly up secondary toon with artifact . Bad point: probably not enough gain on main, not useable on enchant (this one can be both good and bad), not solve either the party point since you mainly gain xp by doing dailie
I think the EXP -> RP would be available to all things. So it counts for RP towards artifacts, artifact equipment or enchants.
At 60 we earn 4,300 per quest. Soon the max level will be 70 and I would imagine the average quest might give closer to 5k EXP.
I like the idea of giving 25 Black Opals each "overflow" level. Thats a pretty easy way to code the EXP->RP system. That ratio may change with lvl 70 though. It may take 350k EXP to level so the number of black opals would need t be changed to 35.
What I would be much more in favor of doing, since just granting a massive lump sum of Opals seems a tad weird, would be something similar to the "Refinement Sacks" as I mentioned before.
So there would be 1 sack awarded for a daily quest, with an "average" of about 4-5K RP in each one.
A "Dungeon delves" sack with an average of about 15-25k RP in each one
Then a "Level" sack with an average of about 250k in each one.
for Daily Quests you could just do:
8-10 Peridots (60%)
or
4-5 Aquamarines (40%)
then a DD "sack" would be:
15-25 Aquamarines (60%)
or
2-3 Black Opals (40%)
then a "Level up" sack would be:
20-30 Black Opals (60%)
or
4-6 Blood Rubies (40%)
So things like this so its more randomized and offer various rewards.
So now this grants you multiple ways to earn RP, doing dungeons grants RP which also grants you EXP which grants you Rp.
Doing dailies grants you RP which also gives EXP which every level up also grants RP.
I think this would be enough and those RP stones can be used for ANY time of RP - meaning enchants, artifacts, arti-equip ETC.
With enchants going to 12, and artifacts going to 120 there will be a massive cost for each of these levels and we will need a really solid method of collecting RP via in game to achieve this.
The system here is akin to the RP->EXP system and would arguable take much less time to code. Just create the three "sacks"
daily: Green
DD Chest: Blue
Level up: Epic
With the drop rates and rewards as shown above. Done.
Then you just need to add those items as rewards for quests/DD chests and level up rewards.
And who stops/prevents the players from botting exp? Your suggestion is too flawed, in my opinion. It takes me 5 minutes to create a script, with which i could theoretically 'farm' exp 24/7, in order to get rp. The suggestion may sound good at first, but if one takes a closer look... it would cause more harm than good.
You can't stop botters without a detection system. Any move to stop botting that does not involve this only punishes regular players. Thus unless they work on a detection system, botting being a drawback should be taken off the table as a negative because in all efforts to stop botting, that have ever happened, no bots were ever stopped for long.
And this is why i said 'the suggestion is too flawed'. I hope this won't never be considered a good idea or even implemented, tbh. His suggestion would actually encourage botting, which is an obvious, no-no.
Take care.
- Let us put full stacks into the slots so that instead of spending an hour pouring all the RP I just bought to make my belt purple into the slots 5 at a time, I now spend a few minutes doing that. The system now is just so freaking inconvenient it's almost physically painful.
- And when you want to put gear in there, the list of gear from the fill all slots button doesn't seem to be organized in any sort of meaningful way. Please make it so that the most recently picked up and identified items at the top of the list. Those are the ones I want to put in there. I don't like that they're all over the place and that I have to keep scrolling up and down to look for them while they're mixed in with the stuff I have in my bank for alternate sets and transmutes.
- You make the things in my bank slots available from this fill all slots drop down menu, but not the things in my shared bank slots. Why? I farm a bunch of RP with dragon hoard enchants on 1 character and then I put them in my shared slots. I don't like that I have to run over to the bank first and grab these stacks in order to use them. Isn't the whole point of these shared bank slots that all your characters can have access to those things that you put in them?
All these seem like small trivial changes, to me at least, but they would be hugely welcome improvements to make the process less clunky. I'm not even going to get into the issues with RP taking forever to acquire, but there are lots of great ideas here that I hope will be seriously considered. I especially love the XP into RP idea.
Anything outside of epic dungeons encourages botting. So unless you want to lock all rp into dungeon chests, every option including current, does.
If this is what you believe then they might as well remove professions from the game. I know more players who bot professions and make literally hundreds of thousands of AD a day without even playing the game.
ANYTHING you do in this game aside from just handing out a blood ruby in each DD chest is going to incentive botting. Heck I bet that even if you DID do that, you would get some guys who set up multiple Neverwinters on multiple computers to just BOT farm DD chests all day.
With the over-gearing that can be done you cant even stop that.
Even if players DO want to bot EXP, again I just dont see how its going to break the game. All the EXP is bound to that account, cannot be sold. Lets just say a player botted EXP all day and TRIPLED the amount of EXP over my current character.
ALL this means is that while I am playing and would have accumulated 3.5m RP they would have accumulated 10.5M RP. Well guess what, congratz that they have enough for TWO orange items over my ONE orange item.
Thats not game breaking at all.
What is game breaking is earning 500k a day from Bot-professions. Guess what, you dont even have to log INTO the game to BOT professions either!
Atleast if a person is going to BOT EXP they have to log into the game where you have a MUCH higher chance of spotting them or someone reporting them.
There is literally zero you can do to avoid botting in nearly ANY game.
Atleast the EXP->RP system makes it stay BOUND to that account without affecting the market. If someone is gonna cheat and BOT RP via EXP, they are probably the same type of person who would buy 3rd party instead of direct anyways, so lets be real about the fact that Cryptic isnt losing sales off those people and wether they BOT RP or buy it 3rd party the result is the same.
Bingo. If someone needs to cheat to feel good about themselves, then they're always going to find a way to cheat.
But the key to stopping bots is to stop them from making a profit off of activities that can be botted. Since earned EXP would be locked to the character that earned it, it's not worth farming since they can't sell it directly.
And you're right, this is the kind of player who's going to do everything he can to NOT pay for anything, so why bother.
What the current system is doing now is alienating potentially paying customers who feel like they're at a loss if they don't spend tons of money. Those are the players whose concerns should be addressed.
Let's lay off the exploiting/cheating/botting commentary. The forums are not the place for that. Please stay ON TOPIC. Re-read the OP, not the replies. There's no need to pick apart people's opinion. Further replies of this nature will be removed and infractions issued as needed.
Please do not reply to this moderator notice, for doing so is not allowed. Instead, contact us via Private Message to discuss forum moderation. Thanks!
Safe travels,Archmage Zebular of Mystryl
PWE Community Moderator
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