grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
edited January 2015
4 rank 10 to get to 12, not now YOU NEED 4 More rank 10 and 4 more Rank 11 to get to 12.
I suggest somewhat going back to the it takes 4 system so 4x1s plus a potency stone is a 2, 4x2s plus 2 potency stones is a 3,. . . 4x6s plus 2 potency stones is a 7 . . . 4x7s plus a potency stone is an 8, 4x7s or 8s or 9s plus 2 potency stone is an 8 or a 9 or a 10, 4x10 plus a legendary potency stone is an 11 and 4x11s plus 2 legendary potency stones is a 12. For the math challenged 4 is the one you have PLUS THREE MORE.
A Rank 1 stone is 10 points, Rank 2 is 40 points, Rank 4 is 640 points, Rank 6 is 10,240, rank 10 is 2,621,440 and Rank 12 is 41,943,040 RP.
At least this way the overage is only on the stone you are refining.
This is not even pay way. to get rank 12 you will need 4 rank 10. this is ~3m - 5m per piece x 4 = 12 - 20m of AD.
~ with 24k per day tops. takes 12 m / 24k = 500 days. more then 1 year.
~ with zen buy at 480 AD per 1 zen = 25 000 zen. ~ 10$ per 1000 zen = 250$ for single one rank 12 at lowest price.
This does not count even refinement point you need to get to level up rank 10 and rank 11. Even if you pay 250$ per items.
I have seen games that favored pay Yet 250 $/1.5 year per 1 top enchantment is over too much. You need like 10 of them to be best of best right ?
I wish that they did use Ironzerg's Exp-system implemented or any of Lew's ideas as they are described now. Cause all that they can "make" will be way worse.
Now that seems MUCH more reasonable. where it puts the "emphasis" back onto RP however now we can also farm RP via EXP.
This would DRAMATICALLY increase my desire to play each day. Constantly feeling like EACH play session is rewarding me somehow. Be it with RP stones, accomplishments, gear, or just the EXP I earned which gives me RP. Each day I progress a little.
I agree on this one. Really in current game status I don't want to put any efforts in playing game. I actually enjoyed game more past 2 month by using gateaway for professions and login once a week for trading. Cause this makes time I put in game rewarded. Rather then wasting time and efforts on 0 progress in one-shot-pvp, stupid grind dailies or RND god chances.
Game need rewarding for play on top level. In current play - there is nothing fun to do after 21k GS +. Grind for ref point is insane and I don't want to repeat it. I got belt and main hand. That is it.
And as far as I know there was only 1 double RP weekend event for full module. Not "more as promised"
On other side having XP for RP trade is really awesome idea. Especially with new 70 cap. Or even 80 in future.
If they would make lvl 61 cost like 10x exp for lvl 60. And have it exponential for each one next.
This would bring old "level up' joy for player. Or you could spend that XP for RP points and get ratings increased. One way or another is players choice - you would get enjoyment of leveling and reward for play in any way. Instead of boring useless RND grind that destroys this game.
Plus new Item Level system can havily limit access to hard (as they should be) dungeons. So that reward for them is worsy. EG - boss XP or RP drop. I remember time then getting some t2 gear required good team. Now it is both dirty cheap and dirty useless to run those dungeons.
Any new system will take time and resources to code, test, and the like. The RP system needs addressing now. This is the best time to act. If a new system isn't in the works, or there isn't time to implement one (and, again, we're still early in the process of revealing M6 details, so for all we know there are some changes already in the works) then some of the things suggested need a look. It's not perfect. It's not the cure for all the ills of the RP system. But it's a step in the right direction.
If your looking for the "NOW" solution that would just be to make RP BoE again. Thats a real quick fix to the RP problem that requires very little effort.
Problem with that is now you just helped all the players that BOT.
Any system past that, will require time, energy, effort ETC. If your going to implement SOMETHING it might as well be a good system.
What I would really recommend they do, put RP back to BOE TODAY, this will bring RP prices DOWN for now. Then work on the EXP-> RP system and roll that out with module 6. I honestly dont think it would take THAT much time to implement and in reality, whats to test for QA purposes? Just anytime you get EXP you get that equiv for RP. Boom Done. Next.
If your looking for the "NOW" solution that would just be to make RP BoE again. Thats a real quick fix to the RP problem that requires very little effort.
Problem with that is now you just helped all the players that BOT.
Any system past that, will require time, energy, effort ETC. If your going to implement SOMETHING it might as well be a good system.
What I would really recommend they do, put RP back to BOE TODAY, this will bring RP prices DOWN for now. Then work on the EXP-> RP system and roll that out with module 6. I honestly dont think it would take THAT much time to implement and in reality, whats to test for QA purposes? Just anytime you get EXP you get that equiv for RP. Boom Done. Next.
If I had to choose between getting M6 off without a hitch and a new RP system, I'd rather them get M6 done right. But that's just me.
Remember the grand undertaking that was Tiamat? Remember the cluster.....yeah....that it turned into? Hence my statement about getting M6 done right before any grand changes.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
I think the beauty of the EXP->RP system is that it allows Cryptic to not only monetize RP (stones) but it allows them to monetize the relationship of EXP->RP.
They have EXP boosters, they do double EXP events etc. They can introduce MORE items in the zen store that give more RP for eahc EXP earned or various other things that you can sell to monetize that relationship.
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
edited January 2015
First see post #92.
2 hours gaming = 4-6 T2 dungeons = 8-12 opals/day (plus the cost of 3-5 keys) [10 average = 100,000 RP] Aha, there's your problem. 4,600,000 * 4 = 18,400,000/100,000 = 184 days.
Lets say it takes 20-30 minutes to run a T2 and its a GUARANTEE to earn 2x Black Opal (20k RP) Do you know how LONG it would take you to farm this to get an orange item?
4,600,000 / 20,000 = 230 T2 runs. If you run 5 a day, this would be 46 days of running FIVE DD T2 runs a day. For just ONE item. repeat this 4x for all the gear and thats over 200 days STRAIGHT of farming T2s 5x a day.
We will have module 7 out by that time and maybe even module 8 announced. Who wants to bet that by mod 8 all this will be obsolete?
Who wants to farm 200 days for gear thats obsolete with a NEW item thatll probably take another 200 days to farm.
Maybe 10 is excessive, but you see the point here. Thats at a 2x Black Opal GUARANTEE also.
Dont forget they have addressed re-adjusting the dungeons to be harder difficulty with harder mobs as well so maybe it wont be 20-30 minutes a run.
TLDR: The DEVs will not be generous enough with RP stones to make this viable. They would need to give a guarantee of a Blood Ruby (50k RP) each DD chest to make this viable. Considering they deem this worth $8 I doubt they will hand these out each DD chest.
Now what COULD happen is a combination of the EXP-> RP system COMBINED with a more generous RP stone drop from each DD chest.
Now you get EXP which also counts as RP per dungeon run. You might also have a daily quest which will give EXP->RP and a 50% chance to get a Black Opal (10k RP) or a 20% chance to get a Blood Ruby (50k RP). This would work really well and people would be farming dungeons again.
If I had to choose between getting M6 off without a hitch and a new RP system, I'd rather them get M6 done right. But that's just me.
While I agree with you 100%. Both module 4 AND module 5 arent even STILL done "right". So theoretically I agree but in practice, considering the track records of each module, I would rather have more bugs we have to deal with with mod 6 release and a very solid RP system. Because just releasing massive RP costs without a way to EARN it will make players leave.
releasing a good RP system that players can earn along with some bugs, players can live with bugs for a short period of time. But releasing a massive increase in costs with no apparent way out - that will crush players desire to play.
Id rather have them announce this EXP->RP system and SAY they are going to have to push mod 6 back 2 weeks to implement this, than release mod 6 without it.
Right now everyone's curiosity is peaked and alot of players are anxious to try mod 6 and the paladin, so there is a small window to take advantage of the popularity out there right now. Announcing a RP adjustment is JUST what we need right now to bring players back to the game.
No offense, but no. Absolutely and definitely no. Any solution that includes botting or 3rd party involvement is not a solution, but an addition to the problem. Let them take the time they need and do it properly. I'd rather have no change until it's done right than inviting more bots to the game to function as a bandage. That bandage is deadly and in the end will be more the source of more infection than fixing the wound it was placed on in the first place.
The only "NOW" solution there is, is to recalculate the time it takes to get enough RP and adjust the RP drop rate to something reasonable in such a manner that farming RP is rewarding. The BoA is not an issue in this, as long as characters (including clerics) can fend for themselves.
Well I agree with you. Id rather have them delay mod 6 or even release mod 6 with more bugs to sort out as long as the community sees this "hope" or "change" of the RP system.
What I was saying is its the only "NOW" solution because even your adjustment of all the RP yadda yadda doesnt solve the issue. It just makes it harder to come back to and re-adjust.
This is why there really isnt a "NOW" solution. RP is such a MAJOR piece of end game it needs and deserves some adequate attention.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited January 2015
I know the devs have limited resources, which is why I designed the experience system to be a near replicate of the Black Ice system that's already in place. The frame work is there, the system just needs to track experience (which it already does) and pull that up in the exact same interface as Black Ice empowering, but with Artifacts and Artifact Equipment populated instead.
Yes, there's SOME work that's going to need to be done, but the foundation's already in place.
And this is why they would never do that. A much simpler way of doing it that doesn't aid botting would be to just lower the cost of Flawless Sapphires in the Wondrous Bazaar to 5k each and allow them to be bought in batches of five. I strongly doubt they'll take any such measures, because they don't seem to consider it an urgent issue.
I know the devs have limited resources, which is why I designed the experience system to be a near replicate of the Black Ice system that's already in place. T ..., but the foundation's already in place.
Id rather see that do 1 thing right at first. then having 10 but broken. As it was with mod 3-5. There was 0 change that went to positive. All are "hotfixes" that break more then they fix. Even with new mod 6 content we have plenty of will-be-broken stuff such as all thoose regen artifacts and wasted to get them to legendary RP.
RP and RP points grind is once again the top issue that separates good play with some donation against HAMSTER boring grind vs crazy useless donations. Having lowered prices can help. Yet this is not the cure. It is the patch on top of current mess.
Literally there is no need to have new classes,new pvp, new levels if you are still gonna face same grind bottleneck that will make your game experience a work. Not the game to enjoy. (and willing to pay for)
bots in some way did saved mod 4 with RP being cheap. That allowed player to focus on game and other problems rather then utility play for grind.
And this is why they would never do that. A much simpler way of doing it that doesn't aid botting would be to just lower the cost of Flawless Sapphires in the Wondrous Bazaar to 5k each and allow them to be bought in batches of five. I strongly doubt they'll take any such measures, because they don't seem to consider it an urgent issue.
Well IMO the correct pricing would be:
7,500 for a flawless Sapphire and 200 zen per Blood Ruby with 3 Blood Ruby pack for 500 zen.
This means 500 zen for 150k RP or 200 zen for 50k RP.
For flawless if it takes 30 flawless sapphire to equal 500 zen.
This seems like a fair RoR per the $ spent.
This could also be a NOW system but I VERY much doubt the devs are willing to admit wrong pricing and drop prices to those amounts. I agree though they dont consider it an urgent issue and thus it wont happen pre-module 6 IMO.
All of this is why I really believe the EXP->RP system is THE solution to all of this. As Ironzerg79 put it, If you utilize the current mechanics in place on an existing system, it could work pretty easily.
Can we just have the bottom row of artifacts use RP and have wearable artifacts ( cloak, belt, etc ), be leveled by XP instead?
It's just too much, and the direction appears to having every wearable item be an artifact.
The company will still earn money by selling experience scrolls for those who want to speed things up a bit.
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shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2015
I like the exp/RP idea, i think it would be a vast improvement and encourage players to play the game more. But there's a very obvious problem with it.
Cryptic's primary goal is to make money. Any idea that replaces or changes the current refining system not only has to be able to make them money, it has to make at least as much as they make from selling Blood Rubies and the other over-priced RP stones in the zen shop.
And don't think just because the prices are laughably high that Cryptic are looking for a new business model. Remember how we laughed at coalescent ward prices? 1000 zen? Ha ha, ridiculous. Well they had the last laugh. And the way they've been squashing cheap refining stones has followed the exact same pattern.
Sure, the XP idea would sell more XP boosters, but will it be in addition to RP stones or instead of? I can see sales of blood rubies really dropping off, and players finding all sorts of ways to maximise XP accumulation for free. Great for player morale, great for game population, not so great for Cryptic's bottom line.
I really hope the devs do take the XP idea on board but I doubt it. Probably not many of you will remember this, but when this refining system was first put in place we were told the change was because not enough people were making use of enchant upgrading and they wanted to make a system that was more "fun and accessible". I kid you not. It's now the most complained about and despised part of the game. Their priorities (and I don't blame them for this, it is what is it) just aren't the same as the player base.
Look at the complex baroque cathedral that is Castle Never, then look at the empty parking lot design of Tiamat's Temple. I think the cost-cutting direction things are going is pretty self-evident.
I like the exp/RP idea, i think it would be a vast improvement and encourage players to play the game more. But there's a very obvious problem with it.
Cryptic's primary goal is to make money. Any idea that replaces or changes the current refining system not only has to be able to make them money, it has to make at least as much as they make from selling Blood Rubies and the other over-priced RP stones in the zen shop.
And don't think just because the prices are laughably high that Cryptic are looking for a new business model. Remember how we laughed at coalescent ward prices? 1000 zen? Ha ha, ridiculous. Well they had the last laugh. And the way they've been squashing cheap refining stones has followed the exact same pattern.
Sure, the XP idea would sell more XP boosters, but will it be in addition to RP stones or instead of? I can see sales of blood rubies really dropping off, and players finding all sorts of ways to maximise XP accumulation for free. Great for player morale, great for game population, not so great for Cryptic's bottom line.
I really hope the devs do take the XP idea on board but I doubt it. Probably not many of you will remember this, but when this refining system was first put in place we were told the change was because not enough people were making use of enchant upgrading and they wanted to make a system that was more "fun and accessible". I kid you not. It's now the most complained about and despised part of the game. Their priorities (and I don't blame them for this, it is what is it) just aren't the same as the player base.
Look at the complex baroque cathedral that is Castle Never, then look at the empty parking lot design of Tiamat's Temple. I think the cost-cutting direction things are going is pretty self-evident.
the problem with the refining point equipment artifact is also that you not restart on the same lvl as the other equipment if you want to change. we get the perfect example with tiamat. even with x2 refining point event you still loose 1.7 million RP per equipment and that with also AD cost by eventually getting equipment and upping it. That cumullate with the time required to get RP to up it and thing are simple by only farming and not doing anything else. i will not get enough before V6 come and i will have to restart. it even a character block if i want to start playing a new toon.
ADD that with all change they are doing where they want to up difficulty in a way that i may be back like 1 year before with a real 11k toon and you need to redo your whole equipment just to be able to redo dongeon that you were able to do..
Cry come on RP point with tiamat because the AH was compensating the up of RP requirement with cheap RP. RP accessiblity have to follow the requirement and it shouldn't be most reward in the worst content: farming low map
Also price of blood ruby haven't drop to follow RP requirement it is as it was on the beginning when RP was only required for enchant and max 3 artifact.
You know if they come as announced with no change on RP but with this drastic up again of requirement, there will probably have a massive leave on the server from the medium class player.
Actually we have time announce just done for previous and we can hope get some positive return
I like the exp/RP idea, i think it would be a vast improvement and encourage players to play the game more. But there's a very obvious problem with it.
Cryptic's primary goal is to make money. Any idea that replaces or changes the current refining system not only has to be able to make them money, it has to make at least as much as they make from selling Blood Rubies and the other over-priced RP stones in the zen shop.
And don't think just because the prices are laughably high that Cryptic are looking for a new business model. Remember how we laughed at coalescent ward prices? 1000 zen? Ha ha, ridiculous. Well they had the last laugh. And the way they've been squashing cheap refining stones has followed the exact same pattern.
Sure, the XP idea would sell more XP boosters, but will it be in addition to RP stones or instead of? I can see sales of blood rubies really dropping off, and players finding all sorts of ways to maximise XP accumulation for free. Great for player morale, great for game population, not so great for Cryptic's bottom line.
I really hope the devs do take the XP idea on board but I doubt it. Probably not many of you will remember this, but when this refining system was first put in place we were told the change was because not enough people were making use of enchant upgrading and they wanted to make a system that was more "fun and accessible". I kid you not. It's now the most complained about and despised part of the game. Their priorities (and I don't blame them for this, it is what is it) just aren't the same as the player base.
Look at the complex baroque cathedral that is Castle Never, then look at the empty parking lot design of Tiamat's Temple. I think the cost-cutting direction things are going is pretty self-evident.
Actually you can get coal wards by other means they are just Bound. But if you have professions you can actually get bound coal wards and use them.
Also the big difference between coal wards and RP is that you can take two greater enchants, buy coal ward and turn it into a perfect enchant, THEN turn around and sell the Perfect enchant. Or heck, use it for a while, get board of it, turn around and SELL it. So the $10 is "transferable". Its not "locked in" to THAT character.
With RP you spend $10 and it gets you what? 50k RP? Which is like 1/6th of ONE level in the 50s.... Also even if you did decide to spend $600 (yes it costs $600 for ONE orange item. ONE) its not as if you can buy the item, use it, get bored and sell it. You cant even transfer it to an ALT character!
What they need to realize is the RP system CAN work, except they need to make a REAL way to earn the item in the game by PLAYING the game, then they can offer a way to speed that up by paying.
This is where RP stones come in via zen. Also what they need to realize are MICRO-transactions. These by definition mean small amounts. Paying $20 for 150k RP is NOT a micro transaction. Also why would some who has a purple item lvl 56 pay $20 to not even level the item?!
Paying $10 for a coal ward, GETS you something.
Paying $20-$30 for a mount GETS you something.
Paying $20 for 3 Blood Rubies gets you NOTHING.
So the difference? This is why they NEED to price blood Rubies at 200 zen. Everytime you run the math this works out perfectly.
200zen = 1 Blood Ruby
500 zen = 3 blood Rubies
It takes 4,600,000 RP for an orange item. Currently its 2000 zen for 3 Blood Rubies. This means 2000 zen = 150k RP. This means $600. NOONE will pay for this.
200 zen for 1 or 500 for 3. Now you have 500 zen = 150k RP. Now your orange item costs about $150. This is MUCH more reasonable.
But even THAT wont get players to buy because youve revealed to them what is behind the "curtain" youve told them you cant get it unless you pay - because there is no viable way to PLAY the GAME (yes you can play the AH) but play the GAME to get RP.
So NOW what you need to do is provide a very SLOW way IN GAME to earn RP by PLAYING it.
The BEST solution to this is to give EXP->RP.
I have played my GWF for a LONG time. I dont recall when they made "overflow" EXP but I have only leveled up about 14 times (7 power points). By this ROUGH math this means I have earned (250k*14) = 3,500,000 EXP post-60.
Now think about that.
If I earn RP for every EXP I earn I would have 3.5M RP. That STILL wont get me ONE orange item. So its CLEARLY not too much.
But what that DOES do is makes me FEEL like I am earning alot of RP when in reality I am not.
Now you will have casual players who will all EASILY get to about lvl 45 in item level on artifact equipment. This only takes around 2 mil RP to do. But about HALF the cost (2.3M RP) is just from 45-60ish. So NOW those players will start seeing the really really slow progression. They log in day after day and barely can get 1 artifact item level. But they SEEM so close, only 10 levels away!
Thats where they look at 200 zen for blood ruby and think.... Wow I could invest $20 and get 600k RP! Thats nearly TWO levels on my artifact item! Thats like a week + worth of farming.
THATS where they buy. Because you let them get REALLY close, but made the last 10 levels SO difficult to level up. They can alost TASTE the orange item! Its right there at the end of their credit card.
Someone will not buy RP to get an item from green to purple. But they WILL buy RP to take that item from lvl 52 to level 60. Because its SEEMS to close.
Now you have kep the player behind that curtain by ALMOST giving them what they want for free, just for playing the game, for earning EXP, but you disguse it behind the mountain of RP required to get the last few levels. Just when they are SO CLOSE! They cave to give you $20 or $40 to skip a few levels.
THATS how you get them to buy. Not by asking for $20 for HALF a level..... Noone will do that. I can go buy an XBOX and a brand new game for the cost it takes to buy zen and get an item from 50-60.
It would be different if artifact items were SUPER rare, dropped AS orange, and then were able to sell on the AH. Then you would see artifact items as orange sell for 20 million easily. This gives you the ~SAME real money cost and it would justify that price, because its RARE. But since they dont drop, they are not rare (everyone has greens/blues purple versions) and the ONLY way to level it up is to pay.
THIS is where the pricing model falls apart.
EXP->RP is NOWHERE NEAR a "free handout" that will cannibalize sales. If anything its just a "free taste" that players get to make them WANT more.
Fully, wholly, totally support lew and zergs proposals. Well thought out, intelligent and fair. For the players and the developers.
That said, not a chance in the world that it happens.
New artifact and enchantment levels announced without a peep about any changes to the system. Folks, this has been an ongoing issue for a while now.
The refinement system is exactly what it is supposed to be. It's supposed to take you away from playing the game the way you want to play it. It's supposed to be irksome/bothersome. The whole idea is to get the player to spend money to relieve some of the irritation or make it go away altogether.
It's a shame, there's really some GREAT ideas shared here, however, the dev's aren't in the least bit interested in utilizing a one of them.
Fully, wholly, totally support lew and zergs proposals. Well thought out, intelligent and fair. For the players and the developers.
That said, not a chance in the world that it happens.
New artifact and enchantment levels announced without a peep about any changes to the system. Folks, this has been an ongoing issue for a while now.
The refinement system is exactly what it is supposed to be. It's supposed to take you away from playing the game the way you want to play it. It's supposed to be irksome/bothersome. The whole idea is to get the player to spend money to relieve some of the irritation or make it go away altogether.
It's a shame, there's really some GREAT ideas shared here, however, the dev's aren't in the least bit interested in utilizing a one of them.
I want to stress--again--that the devs haven't put all their cards on the table for mod 6 yet. We've had one cycle of patch notes with mod 6 still being on the horizon and no release date yet. For all we know, they DO have something in the works, however, the aim of this thread is that, with mod 6 being on preview and the devs watching the preview forums for feedback, that some word gets out about the RP system, how the players are unhappy with it, and some changes that can be suggested.
So, simply because they've announced that the levels will be going up and nothing about the RP system does not necessarily equate to nothing in the works. This is just an attempt for some visibility at a critical moment.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
So, simply because they've announced that the levels will be going up and nothing about the RP system does not necessarily equate to nothing in the works. This is just an attempt for some visibility at a critical moment.
I agree. Let's keep the thread constructive. Posts about how the Devs don't care and aren't going to do anything doesn't help.
Because they DO care, and I'm sure they WANT to refinement to feel like something that's engaging and rewarding.
Some people were saying that skill nodes in the new area had rank 5s at least. It remains to be seen what they've done so far, but that doesn't mean the player base shouldn't keep emphasizing how important a quality of life improvement it would be to get better access to refining points/materials and, ideally, a better interface.
I wonder how they are going to prevent bots from constantly farming said nodes, before an actual player does. I've seen this happenning in the past and it was not the best experience, i had in this game.
Increasing entry requirements for the new zones would make them harder to farm with bots, since each would require a much larger investment to get there. Regardless, botting is mainly a problem for the company's bottom line, not players, who benefit from the lower prices in the AH. They could solve the issue of botting by making certain forms of rewards much more profitable, but that wouldn't help them monetize it. So they're sort of stuck trying to keep a ship floating while leaking in both ends.
True, perhaps they could make it require the first three boons of, Sharandar + Dread ring + either ToD or IWD, which are easily obtainable in my opinion.
If they implement the EXP->RP issue BOTs cant really abuse that... You can "bot" farm EXP all day, however, I would imagine those accounts are much easier to catch. Just have someone/something watching for any player who spends more than 6-8 hours in game. Send them a /tell and if they dont respond, ban them. Pretty easy.
there is really no way to "scam" the EXP->RP system and it offers literally the PERFECT amount of "natural" RP. It gives just enough to make players feel like they are progressing without giving them too much for them to avoid buying RP stones.
A large part of the RP stone issue is the current zen pricing. I have detailed this one page back so I wont go into it again.
The EXP->RP system is what REALLY can solve all of this issue. Then if they want to speed up or slow down RP gain they can mess with and monetize the EXP rate.
If you think about it, if you can get a player to spend $60 each module release thats a pretty big win for the company. Thats the same amount you get from a full fledged box release, every 4 months ish.
So how do you get payers to give you $60?
Mounts is 1 way. Things like Coal Wards are another. The easiest one though is RP. Currently NOONE is going to give you $60 for RP though.
Why?
$60 gets you 9 Blood Rubies. This is only 450k RP. Which translates to about 1-1.5 levels of artifact equipment. That is a HORRIBLE Return on Investment for the player.
If $60 got them more like 1,800,000 RP (using 500zen = 3 BRs) Now THAT is $60 and enough to take your purple item from ~ lvl 50 to lvl 60.
So you basically need to find a way to get the player to lvl 45-50 ish naturally without spending cash. THEN they will look to drop $60 to push it the rest of the way. A player is much more willing to spend some money to FINISH something if they feel they have done most of the work (i.e. player farms an item to 50. Pays $60 to finish it to lvl 60) Or another would be (players are much more likely to play module 1 about 2/3rds of the way, then look to PAY $10-$20 to FINISH out the module, rather than pay for the FULL thing)
If they implement the EXP->RP issue BOTs cant really abuse that... You can "bot" farm EXP all day, however, I would imagine those accounts are much easier to catch. Just have someone/something watching for any player who spends more than 6-8 hours in game. Send them a /tell and if they dont respond, ban them. Pretty easy.
I have /tell always deactivated, because gold sellers keep on spamming me for some reason (10-15 different accounts per day is normal to me). I like my idea of having 9 boons from three campaigns better, since botters do not tend to have boons, just lvl 60 characters.
It is something that was/is missing from WoD in my opinion. If it would require boons, there wouldn't be bots in tiamat.
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I suggest somewhat going back to the it takes 4 system so 4x1s plus a potency stone is a 2, 4x2s plus 2 potency stones is a 3,. . . 4x6s plus 2 potency stones is a 7 . . . 4x7s plus a potency stone is an 8, 4x7s or 8s or 9s plus 2 potency stone is an 8 or a 9 or a 10, 4x10 plus a legendary potency stone is an 11 and 4x11s plus 2 legendary potency stones is a 12. For the math challenged 4 is the one you have PLUS THREE MORE.
A Rank 1 stone is 10 points, Rank 2 is 40 points, Rank 4 is 640 points, Rank 6 is 10,240, rank 10 is 2,621,440 and Rank 12 is 41,943,040 RP.
At least this way the overage is only on the stone you are refining.
I agree on this one. Really in current game status I don't want to put any efforts in playing game. I actually enjoyed game more past 2 month by using gateaway for professions and login once a week for trading. Cause this makes time I put in game rewarded. Rather then wasting time and efforts on 0 progress in one-shot-pvp, stupid grind dailies or RND god chances.
Game need rewarding for play on top level. In current play - there is nothing fun to do after 21k GS +. Grind for ref point is insane and I don't want to repeat it. I got belt and main hand. That is it.
And as far as I know there was only 1 double RP weekend event for full module. Not "more as promised"
On other side having XP for RP trade is really awesome idea. Especially with new 70 cap. Or even 80 in future.
If they would make lvl 61 cost like 10x exp for lvl 60. And have it exponential for each one next.
This would bring old "level up' joy for player. Or you could spend that XP for RP points and get ratings increased. One way or another is players choice - you would get enjoyment of leveling and reward for play in any way. Instead of boring useless RND grind that destroys this game.
Plus new Item Level system can havily limit access to hard (as they should be) dungeons. So that reward for them is worsy. EG - boss XP or RP drop. I remember time then getting some t2 gear required good team. Now it is both dirty cheap and dirty useless to run those dungeons.
If your looking for the "NOW" solution that would just be to make RP BoE again. Thats a real quick fix to the RP problem that requires very little effort.
Problem with that is now you just helped all the players that BOT.
Any system past that, will require time, energy, effort ETC. If your going to implement SOMETHING it might as well be a good system.
What I would really recommend they do, put RP back to BOE TODAY, this will bring RP prices DOWN for now. Then work on the EXP-> RP system and roll that out with module 6. I honestly dont think it would take THAT much time to implement and in reality, whats to test for QA purposes? Just anytime you get EXP you get that equiv for RP. Boom Done. Next.
If I had to choose between getting M6 off without a hitch and a new RP system, I'd rather them get M6 done right. But that's just me.
Remember the grand undertaking that was Tiamat? Remember the cluster.....yeah....that it turned into? Hence my statement about getting M6 done right before any grand changes.
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They have EXP boosters, they do double EXP events etc. They can introduce MORE items in the zen store that give more RP for eahc EXP earned or various other things that you can sell to monetize that relationship.
2 hours gaming = 4-6 T2 dungeons = 8-12 opals/day (plus the cost of 3-5 keys) [10 average = 100,000 RP] Aha, there's your problem. 4,600,000 * 4 = 18,400,000/100,000 = 184 days.
Revised T2 Gem drop:
Brilliant Diamond 1%
Blood Ruby 2%
2 Opals 97%
While I agree with you 100%. Both module 4 AND module 5 arent even STILL done "right". So theoretically I agree but in practice, considering the track records of each module, I would rather have more bugs we have to deal with with mod 6 release and a very solid RP system. Because just releasing massive RP costs without a way to EARN it will make players leave.
releasing a good RP system that players can earn along with some bugs, players can live with bugs for a short period of time. But releasing a massive increase in costs with no apparent way out - that will crush players desire to play.
Id rather have them announce this EXP->RP system and SAY they are going to have to push mod 6 back 2 weeks to implement this, than release mod 6 without it.
Right now everyone's curiosity is peaked and alot of players are anxious to try mod 6 and the paladin, so there is a small window to take advantage of the popularity out there right now. Announcing a RP adjustment is JUST what we need right now to bring players back to the game.
Well I agree with you. Id rather have them delay mod 6 or even release mod 6 with more bugs to sort out as long as the community sees this "hope" or "change" of the RP system.
What I was saying is its the only "NOW" solution because even your adjustment of all the RP yadda yadda doesnt solve the issue. It just makes it harder to come back to and re-adjust.
This is why there really isnt a "NOW" solution. RP is such a MAJOR piece of end game it needs and deserves some adequate attention.
Yes, there's SOME work that's going to need to be done, but the foundation's already in place.
Id rather see that do 1 thing right at first. then having 10 but broken. As it was with mod 3-5. There was 0 change that went to positive. All are "hotfixes" that break more then they fix. Even with new mod 6 content we have plenty of will-be-broken stuff such as all thoose regen artifacts and wasted to get them to legendary RP.
RP and RP points grind is once again the top issue that separates good play with some donation against HAMSTER boring grind vs crazy useless donations. Having lowered prices can help. Yet this is not the cure. It is the patch on top of current mess.
Literally there is no need to have new classes,new pvp, new levels if you are still gonna face same grind bottleneck that will make your game experience a work. Not the game to enjoy. (and willing to pay for)
bots in some way did saved mod 4 with RP being cheap. That allowed player to focus on game and other problems rather then utility play for grind.
Well IMO the correct pricing would be:
7,500 for a flawless Sapphire and 200 zen per Blood Ruby with 3 Blood Ruby pack for 500 zen.
This means 500 zen for 150k RP or 200 zen for 50k RP.
For flawless if it takes 30 flawless sapphire to equal 500 zen.
This seems like a fair RoR per the $ spent.
This could also be a NOW system but I VERY much doubt the devs are willing to admit wrong pricing and drop prices to those amounts. I agree though they dont consider it an urgent issue and thus it wont happen pre-module 6 IMO.
All of this is why I really believe the EXP->RP system is THE solution to all of this. As Ironzerg79 put it, If you utilize the current mechanics in place on an existing system, it could work pretty easily.
It's just too much, and the direction appears to having every wearable item be an artifact.
The company will still earn money by selling experience scrolls for those who want to speed things up a bit.
Cryptic's primary goal is to make money. Any idea that replaces or changes the current refining system not only has to be able to make them money, it has to make at least as much as they make from selling Blood Rubies and the other over-priced RP stones in the zen shop.
And don't think just because the prices are laughably high that Cryptic are looking for a new business model. Remember how we laughed at coalescent ward prices? 1000 zen? Ha ha, ridiculous. Well they had the last laugh. And the way they've been squashing cheap refining stones has followed the exact same pattern.
Sure, the XP idea would sell more XP boosters, but will it be in addition to RP stones or instead of? I can see sales of blood rubies really dropping off, and players finding all sorts of ways to maximise XP accumulation for free. Great for player morale, great for game population, not so great for Cryptic's bottom line.
I really hope the devs do take the XP idea on board but I doubt it. Probably not many of you will remember this, but when this refining system was first put in place we were told the change was because not enough people were making use of enchant upgrading and they wanted to make a system that was more "fun and accessible". I kid you not. It's now the most complained about and despised part of the game. Their priorities (and I don't blame them for this, it is what is it) just aren't the same as the player base.
Look at the complex baroque cathedral that is Castle Never, then look at the empty parking lot design of Tiamat's Temple. I think the cost-cutting direction things are going is pretty self-evident.
the problem with the refining point equipment artifact is also that you not restart on the same lvl as the other equipment if you want to change. we get the perfect example with tiamat. even with x2 refining point event you still loose 1.7 million RP per equipment and that with also AD cost by eventually getting equipment and upping it. That cumullate with the time required to get RP to up it and thing are simple by only farming and not doing anything else. i will not get enough before V6 come and i will have to restart. it even a character block if i want to start playing a new toon.
ADD that with all change they are doing where they want to up difficulty in a way that i may be back like 1 year before with a real 11k toon and you need to redo your whole equipment just to be able to redo dongeon that you were able to do..
Cry come on RP point with tiamat because the AH was compensating the up of RP requirement with cheap RP. RP accessiblity have to follow the requirement and it shouldn't be most reward in the worst content: farming low map
Also price of blood ruby haven't drop to follow RP requirement it is as it was on the beginning when RP was only required for enchant and max 3 artifact.
You know if they come as announced with no change on RP but with this drastic up again of requirement, there will probably have a massive leave on the server from the medium class player.
Actually we have time announce just done for previous and we can hope get some positive return
Actually you can get coal wards by other means they are just Bound. But if you have professions you can actually get bound coal wards and use them.
Also the big difference between coal wards and RP is that you can take two greater enchants, buy coal ward and turn it into a perfect enchant, THEN turn around and sell the Perfect enchant. Or heck, use it for a while, get board of it, turn around and SELL it. So the $10 is "transferable". Its not "locked in" to THAT character.
With RP you spend $10 and it gets you what? 50k RP? Which is like 1/6th of ONE level in the 50s.... Also even if you did decide to spend $600 (yes it costs $600 for ONE orange item. ONE) its not as if you can buy the item, use it, get bored and sell it. You cant even transfer it to an ALT character!
What they need to realize is the RP system CAN work, except they need to make a REAL way to earn the item in the game by PLAYING the game, then they can offer a way to speed that up by paying.
This is where RP stones come in via zen. Also what they need to realize are MICRO-transactions. These by definition mean small amounts. Paying $20 for 150k RP is NOT a micro transaction. Also why would some who has a purple item lvl 56 pay $20 to not even level the item?!
Paying $10 for a coal ward, GETS you something.
Paying $20-$30 for a mount GETS you something.
Paying $20 for 3 Blood Rubies gets you NOTHING.
So the difference? This is why they NEED to price blood Rubies at 200 zen. Everytime you run the math this works out perfectly.
200zen = 1 Blood Ruby
500 zen = 3 blood Rubies
It takes 4,600,000 RP for an orange item. Currently its 2000 zen for 3 Blood Rubies. This means 2000 zen = 150k RP. This means $600. NOONE will pay for this.
200 zen for 1 or 500 for 3. Now you have 500 zen = 150k RP. Now your orange item costs about $150. This is MUCH more reasonable.
But even THAT wont get players to buy because youve revealed to them what is behind the "curtain" youve told them you cant get it unless you pay - because there is no viable way to PLAY the GAME (yes you can play the AH) but play the GAME to get RP.
So NOW what you need to do is provide a very SLOW way IN GAME to earn RP by PLAYING it.
The BEST solution to this is to give EXP->RP.
I have played my GWF for a LONG time. I dont recall when they made "overflow" EXP but I have only leveled up about 14 times (7 power points). By this ROUGH math this means I have earned (250k*14) = 3,500,000 EXP post-60.
Now think about that.
If I earn RP for every EXP I earn I would have 3.5M RP. That STILL wont get me ONE orange item. So its CLEARLY not too much.
But what that DOES do is makes me FEEL like I am earning alot of RP when in reality I am not.
Now you will have casual players who will all EASILY get to about lvl 45 in item level on artifact equipment. This only takes around 2 mil RP to do. But about HALF the cost (2.3M RP) is just from 45-60ish. So NOW those players will start seeing the really really slow progression. They log in day after day and barely can get 1 artifact item level. But they SEEM so close, only 10 levels away!
Thats where they look at 200 zen for blood ruby and think.... Wow I could invest $20 and get 600k RP! Thats nearly TWO levels on my artifact item! Thats like a week + worth of farming.
THATS where they buy. Because you let them get REALLY close, but made the last 10 levels SO difficult to level up. They can alost TASTE the orange item! Its right there at the end of their credit card.
Someone will not buy RP to get an item from green to purple. But they WILL buy RP to take that item from lvl 52 to level 60. Because its SEEMS to close.
Now you have kep the player behind that curtain by ALMOST giving them what they want for free, just for playing the game, for earning EXP, but you disguse it behind the mountain of RP required to get the last few levels. Just when they are SO CLOSE! They cave to give you $20 or $40 to skip a few levels.
THATS how you get them to buy. Not by asking for $20 for HALF a level..... Noone will do that. I can go buy an XBOX and a brand new game for the cost it takes to buy zen and get an item from 50-60.
It would be different if artifact items were SUPER rare, dropped AS orange, and then were able to sell on the AH. Then you would see artifact items as orange sell for 20 million easily. This gives you the ~SAME real money cost and it would justify that price, because its RARE. But since they dont drop, they are not rare (everyone has greens/blues purple versions) and the ONLY way to level it up is to pay.
THIS is where the pricing model falls apart.
EXP->RP is NOWHERE NEAR a "free handout" that will cannibalize sales. If anything its just a "free taste" that players get to make them WANT more.
That said, not a chance in the world that it happens.
New artifact and enchantment levels announced without a peep about any changes to the system. Folks, this has been an ongoing issue for a while now.
The refinement system is exactly what it is supposed to be. It's supposed to take you away from playing the game the way you want to play it. It's supposed to be irksome/bothersome. The whole idea is to get the player to spend money to relieve some of the irritation or make it go away altogether.
It's a shame, there's really some GREAT ideas shared here, however, the dev's aren't in the least bit interested in utilizing a one of them.
I want to stress--again--that the devs haven't put all their cards on the table for mod 6 yet. We've had one cycle of patch notes with mod 6 still being on the horizon and no release date yet. For all we know, they DO have something in the works, however, the aim of this thread is that, with mod 6 being on preview and the devs watching the preview forums for feedback, that some word gets out about the RP system, how the players are unhappy with it, and some changes that can be suggested.
So, simply because they've announced that the levels will be going up and nothing about the RP system does not necessarily equate to nothing in the works. This is just an attempt for some visibility at a critical moment.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
I agree. Let's keep the thread constructive. Posts about how the Devs don't care and aren't going to do anything doesn't help.
Because they DO care, and I'm sure they WANT to refinement to feel like something that's engaging and rewarding.
RP stone drop table added to invocation
RP stones purchaseable with Raw black ice or rough AD
Raw AD would break the game. Too many ppl run max leadership and have millions of raw AD. The only thing making it reasonable is the daily refine max
I wonder how they are going to prevent bots from constantly farming said nodes, before an actual player does. I've seen this happenning in the past and it was not the best experience, i had in this game.
They won't. Expect R5s to be the new R4s. If Aquamarines replace Peridots in the loot table as well, same applies to them.
True, perhaps they could make it require the first three boons of, Sharandar + Dread ring + either ToD or IWD, which are easily obtainable in my opinion.
there is really no way to "scam" the EXP->RP system and it offers literally the PERFECT amount of "natural" RP. It gives just enough to make players feel like they are progressing without giving them too much for them to avoid buying RP stones.
A large part of the RP stone issue is the current zen pricing. I have detailed this one page back so I wont go into it again.
The EXP->RP system is what REALLY can solve all of this issue. Then if they want to speed up or slow down RP gain they can mess with and monetize the EXP rate.
If you think about it, if you can get a player to spend $60 each module release thats a pretty big win for the company. Thats the same amount you get from a full fledged box release, every 4 months ish.
So how do you get payers to give you $60?
Mounts is 1 way. Things like Coal Wards are another. The easiest one though is RP. Currently NOONE is going to give you $60 for RP though.
Why?
$60 gets you 9 Blood Rubies. This is only 450k RP. Which translates to about 1-1.5 levels of artifact equipment. That is a HORRIBLE Return on Investment for the player.
If $60 got them more like 1,800,000 RP (using 500zen = 3 BRs) Now THAT is $60 and enough to take your purple item from ~ lvl 50 to lvl 60.
So you basically need to find a way to get the player to lvl 45-50 ish naturally without spending cash. THEN they will look to drop $60 to push it the rest of the way. A player is much more willing to spend some money to FINISH something if they feel they have done most of the work (i.e. player farms an item to 50. Pays $60 to finish it to lvl 60) Or another would be (players are much more likely to play module 1 about 2/3rds of the way, then look to PAY $10-$20 to FINISH out the module, rather than pay for the FULL thing)
I have /tell always deactivated, because gold sellers keep on spamming me for some reason (10-15 different accounts per day is normal to me). I like my idea of having 9 boons from three campaigns better, since botters do not tend to have boons, just lvl 60 characters.
It is something that was/is missing from WoD in my opinion. If it would require boons, there wouldn't be bots in tiamat.