Wanted to post a test I just ran that some1 was talking about above.
On my GWF with 12.3k Power and 25 STR, and GWF weapon over 1k weapon dmg, My sure strike hit a dummy for:
1124-1190
On my GF with 2441 Power, 20 STR and a MUCH lower weapon damage (671) my Crushing Surge hit for:
1698-1700
THIS is the issue.
Literally 20% of the power my GWF has, 5 LESS STR points. a weapon with nearly HALF the weapon damage and his at will hits 50% harder......
Its a pure joke.
this happened because of the previous mods where we didnt had so much boons/gear/artifacts...
the GWF was probably the only class that could've stacked POWER, so he was probably good for that, meaning that after changes the GWF isn't the only one that has power, so the old mechanic with low damage at wills and big power on GWF isn't working well.
cause other classes have big damage on at will with big power . so it's really unbalancing it out, and not sayin about your example, your example only shows how broken this thing can go up to.
And yet you dont take to consideration attack speed of atwills, and ustapable witch speeden it up. How meny hits you trow when crashing surge is finished? and the delay after 3 hits of CS? I imagine you have feat +10% to atwill. Sure strike could be streanthen thoe, but compariton with CS is a bit of...
And yet you dont take to consideration attack speed of atwills, and ustapable witch speeden it up. How meny hits you trow when crashing surge is finished? and the delay after 3 hits of CS? I imagine you have feat +10% to atwill. Sure strike could be streanthen thoe, but compariton with CS is a bit of...
That 1100-1200 dmg per at will is WITH the +10% atwill feat. Besides, GWF while gains higher at will speed, he gets damage penalty at the same time. And while crushing surge is slightly slower, let's not forget that it heals you.
Truth is, GWF's atwills suck big time. Sure strike is weak, reaping strike is lol, wicked strike is bugged, TR has a 9s charge(!) + low damage + high delay + bugged, WMS has high delay.
And yet you dont take to consideration attack speed of atwills, and ustapable witch speeden it up. How meny hits you trow when crashing surge is finished? and the delay after 3 hits of CS? I imagine you have feat +10% to atwill. Sure strike could be streanthen thoe, but compariton with CS is a bit of...
this argument is valid, in pve If you are a destroyer, and THAT because a destroyer can put this damage on the gf standard (stacks), with the advantage of speed.
with the detail that the gwf, destroyer or not, is an exclusively dps class, with a tree a little tougher+strange, lazy but functional aoe burst and a runner (emblematic), all that with 0 utility for the group. balance
we can not say the same for our brother defender.
if it were to be "fair" to the - mad - current state of the game, the base damage of a should be 2 / 3x greater than the value currently.
Are you not aware that gf animations are the most slagish of all? Pls check TR at gf and gwf. At gwf u dont need to even hit/touch target to do next encounter. GF need to wait 0.7 sec after hit to do something else. And u do only 1 hit from CS combo becouse is that slow. If some1 here want to do experiment about atwill speed, i am almost sure that when gf will start second 3combo CS gwf wil be at end of secont combo 4-5 hit combo (at work cant check) or at begining of next. Could some1 prove me wrong?
I dont whant to say that SS is good, but i think CS in gf skin isnt so much better. You cant swing it like a mad man (gwfs) to buff your crit and be moderatly save becouse of unstapable. You can do 1 max 2 hits and u must shield up or take consequences. Thats why im saying its unfair to compere those atwills...
the simple fact that we are, with some caution, discussing the perfomance of a damage dealer Atwill and a defender atwill ignoring so many other attributes of this defender class (nonexistent for your brother ). as already proof that the base damage of this damage dealer class should be 2x / 3x better.
DPS class witch has 20% deflect more than a "defender class" witch also has a "dps" tree named Conqueror... Please dont be blind. I play regulary both classes.
3x dmg for encounter then u can by just hiting have 10% crit more, with art weap, +10% SS, +10% form feat + speedy attack (+20% from mark)? U want to see 8-10k on 1 hit when frenzied? You know what that would mean i pvp?
3x dmg for encounter then u can by just hiting have 10% crit more, with art weap, +10% SS, +10% form feat + speedy attack (+20% from mark)? U want to see 8-10k on 1 hit when frenzied? You know what that would mean i pvp?
no, i want pass the potencial mark damage for the base. 35% (20% of mark+15% of powerfull challange ignoring combat advantage; can still in the mark bonus).
then you up the radius of some powers like ws to this level ((reaping strike),
eliminated aoe penalitys of damage (my real atwill damage is 20/25% lower if hit multiple targets... yeah...) turn powerfull challange/mark damage a threat bonus (that is, no big change for iv pvp ignoring intimidation... i like the effectein project for this feet).
and, if possible, turn sos a slow feet of 3,5% slow for stack (3x) when give a critical damage for "defender propose" in pve and some nice thing for pvp using the another t1 of instigator).
of course, fix slam and give life for steadfast determination.
that is my desire to balance this class.
like a says, the ayroux ideas is fair, bring justice for the game, but i believe that so manny current problems can be fixed after fix historical problems of the class.
DPS class witch has 20% deflect more than a "defender class" witch also has a "dps" tree named Conqueror... Please dont be blind. I play regulary both classes.
3x dmg for encounter then u can by just hiting have 10% crit more, with art weap, +10% SS, +10% form feat + speedy attack (+20% from mark)? U want to see 8-10k on 1 hit when frenzied? You know what that would mean i pvp?
Do you even realize that GWF hits for 800 dmg non-crit sure strike in pvp with 9k power+? 10k in one hit is absurd, that's not what we're asking. But hitting 2k non crit would be nice. At least we wouldn't heal HRs and give free stamina for CWs and SWs. Now ppl are basically facetanking sentinel at-wills and saving their stamina to dodge our encounters with their abysmal long cooldowns. Something no-one would do if attacked by a TR, for example.
ravernan, i've tested it out for you.
about deflect.
yes GWF can go up to 50% deflect chance from profound set+bravery+tier1 scale agility feat+ dex + offhand bravery + Pots = 50% and probably a 53% with event pots.
if it's instigator with nimble runner he gets 10% more while sprinting.
if it's sentinel he goes up to from 5 stacks of weapon master 60%.
but GF can go up to 35% for what i remember.
TR scoundrels can go up to 85%
HRS combat can go up to 70%.
if you have readed it carefully all the 23 pages you would have realised this.
we want to remove mark and mark should only give threat and 8% debuff for others only.
powerfull challenge gives us 15% more damage , but to use this is only on the IV path usefull, not on the SM because SM doesn't have threating Rush. so we want to take that 15% more damage and put it on the base damage and leaving Powerfull challenge only with threat .
Mark will still give CBA.
this move will bring a nerf for intimidation for 15% damage, cause cagi/daring shout base damage is different from other encounters/atwills and dailies meaning that if intimidation is changed to 350% out of weapon damage = 3500 damage as base he will get a bigger nerf than you have expected and thing , meaning that he will not oneshot anymore and do normal burst damage, and to fill this thing i want that those encounters to get 2-3 shorter cooldowns and bring utility to the entire team by buffing the entire team after using 1 cagi and 1 daring shout, similar to GF way of playin, making the sentinel tree viable in a premade or in a match, he wont do that big crit anymore givin him a better potency on being a support.
same for destroyers he needs a better way of interrupitng targets and as we've seen on trickster way of playin, the way they daze is the best interrupt in the game, roar right now is weak. so a daze on roar should help it, cause from all the feats on that paragon he deals alot of single target damage so i think it's enough.
about instigator he only has a 50% damage bonus, he is not even close to destroyer, the paragon has only 3 feats good for PVP, the main encounters on the paragon are useless, so what i would like to see instigator to be an hybrid.
so 15-30% DR on unstopable will be for destroyer
40-80% DR will be for sentinels
and 35-50% DR will be for instigators
cuz it will have half of the damage the destroyer can do, and half of the tankyness the sentinel can have.
and it needs some other buffs to be more attractive .
so the problem is like i repeated again
the base damage of at will from a scale of 0 to 10.
its 0 , while our weapon damage it,s a 10 and same with our POWER.
but if we dont have anything on base to multiply we will lack damage.
and this doesn't bring excuses for classes like GF cause they are attacking with 1 sec cooldown before the next attack. cause in 1 second a GF deal on at will 3x more damage than i do in that second .
and about Determination gain, it would be much better to have temporary hit points increased.
for example i have 50k HP and get a crit that gets my hp to half, so at that moment when i use unstopable at full bar i want to get around 16k-17k HP as temporary hit points. this will provide a better way of fighting and not dying while you are in unstopable. and the penalty on atwills should be removed. After Unstopable it's finished you will lose the temporary hitpoints.
Do you even realize that GWF hits for 800 dmg non-crit sure strike in pvp with 9k power+? 10k in one hit is absurd, that's not what we're asking. But hitting 2k non crit would be nice. At least we wouldn't heal HRs and give free stamina for CWs and SWs. Now ppl are basically facetanking sentinel at-wills and saving their stamina to dodge our encounters with their abysmal long cooldowns. Something no-one would do if attacked by a TR, for example.
Or hit for 0s on a DC with that insurmountable shield thingy they put on themselves.
ALL of this was just meant to illustrate the point that I noticed over a year ago.
The class with the highest weapon damage hits for the LEAST amount of damage.
Noone is asking for 10k at will hits. But I think HITTING in the 2-3k range in PVP is more than fair for a GWF. Most of the time during just the attack animations if ALL the opponent did was move backwards (not dodge but MOVE) they will avoid the 3rd hit of sure strike.
Most of the time in PVP, due to all the dodges/CC that classes have combined with the GWF trying to skillfully use his own encoutners you wont see much at will spamming anyways. Its only when a player is trying to facetank the GWFs attacks where you see at will spamming.
Honestly all you need to do to test balance is make a fresh GWF, go sure strike the first mob you see. Then make a class like HR/CW/TR pretty much ANYONE and they will hit harder. The ONLY exception is the GF who doesnt get Crushing surge until later and his starting at will is an AoE so its MEANT to do less since SS isnt an AoE.
You know what ill go do this and come back with the post.
Things like Power/Strength bonus yadda yadda shouldnt be tied into trying to make this balanced. ALL you need to do is look at the lvl 1 characters (technically lvl 2) and itll SHOW you.
GWFs require melee range, yet their melee at will hits as hard as TRs RANGED at will "CoS"?
Made a lvl 1 GWF with 20 STR. His weapon dmg shows 22-27. My tool tip Sure Strike is 13-15. My ACTUAL damage hitting a mob is: 14-15 dmg.
I made a lvl 1 HR with 20 Dex (Same as STR for GWF) his weapon damage is 18-22. His RANGED at will tool tip shows 16-17 and he HITS for 15-17....
So explain why a RANGED class with a weapon damage thats 80% of my GWFs damage, deals MORE damage at lvl 1? Right there that should tell you things are not balanced.
Then it only gets worse as classes progress more and more to where GWFs with 12k Power and 1k weapon damage are hitting WEAKER than a 3k Power 670 weapon damage GF?
Again. If the GWFs weapon damage is around 20% more than anyone else's AND he has to be in melee range shouldnt it hit about 25% harder than anyone else's?
part of this is BASE damage on at wills need to be ABOUT doubled. I think that would be fair. Then you can look at removing AoE penalty as well as removing Unstoppable penalty and GWFs.
I agree with the above as well that all that boosted damage should be added to the "base" although I dont know how you propose doing that.... Unless you add some new "feat" to GWFs thats passive something called like "Great Weapon" that hits with your weapon deal 35% more damage....
Otherwise the only other way I can see to change things would be to buff up Strength as the best damage stat.
Wanted to post a test I just ran that some1 was talking about above.
On my GWF with 12.3k Power and 25 STR, and GWF weapon over 1k weapon dmg, My sure strike hit a dummy for:
1124-1190
On my GF with 2441 Power, 20 STR and a MUCH lower weapon damage (671) my Crushing Surge hit for:
1698-1700
THIS is the issue.
Literally 20% of the power my GWF has, 5 LESS STR points. a weapon with nearly HALF the weapon damage and his at will hits 50% harder......
Its a pure joke.
Ever heard of dismissing returns? probably you overcapped yourself with power.
Also note that, you hit 76 times with you at will while a GF does a single hit with crushing surge.
Personally I do never use crushing surge cus cleave hits much faster AND easier to aim with it + aoe.
Btw guys are you even sane? Reading the last 3 pages basically is all about how superios a GF is compared to a GWF.
Now compare the GF DPS paragon with the GWF TANK paragon.
GF-s have around 50% DR
15-20% deflect
yet takes it years or 5 rotation to kill any1 in pvp.
GWF-s have around 40-45% DR (woa what? without a shield hmm interesting)
as u said they can reach 30-50% deflect (ooouhhh)
and their damage output is superior compared to a GF's.
Ever heard of dismissing returns? probably you overcapped yourself with power.
Also note that, you hit 76 times with you at will while a GF does a single hit with crushing surge.
Personally I do never use crushing surge cus cleave hits much faster AND easier to aim with it + aoe.
HAHAHAHAHA! WOW.....
Power has NO diminishing returns. Same with HP its a flat 167 power = 1% dmg boost. PERIOD. Doesnt matter if you have 20 power or 20,000 power. Its 167 = 1% dmg.
Actually the GWF to GF hit ratio is about 4-3 meaning you get a full 4 at wills off in the time it takes the GF to do 3 at wills.
That still doesnt anser the question why the GFs at wills hit for 50% more than the GWFs expecialyl when the GWF has 5x the amount of Power AND has more strength.
Take a 1H sword in real life, swing it with 1 hand and you might get about 1/2 to 2/3rds of the way through a watermelon.
Take a massive "great weapon" and grab it with two hands. There wouldnt even be anything left....
Power has NO diminishing returns. Same with HP its a flat 167 power = 1% dmg boost. PERIOD. Doesnt matter if you have 20 power or 20,000 power. Its 167 = 1% dmg.
Actually the GWF to GF hit ratio is about 4-3 meaning you get a full 4 at wills off in the time it takes the GF to do 3 at wills.
That still doesnt anser the question why the GFs at wills hit for 50% more than the GWFs expecialyl when the GWF has 5x the amount of Power AND has more strength.
Take a 1H sword in real life, swing it with 1 hand and you might get about 1/2 to 2/3rds of the way through a watermelon.
Take a massive "great weapon" and grab it with two hands. There wouldnt even be anything left....
Well you got me I only play thiw game for like 40 days and was never stacking power on my GF.
BTW I measured the GF at-wills:
Cleave: 3hit-> between 2.4 and 2.6 sec
Crushing surge 3 hit: between 2.7 and 3 sec
But I guess tha range is shorter also GF moves really slow, so mostly realy on his encounters to deal dmg (or is it just me?), because unles someone will stand still in your at wills you will be kited.
And slicing up a watermelon depens only on how sharp your sword is, not on the size of it, you can have a big 2 handed sword which smashes it but not cut it (because has no ptoper edge), while you can go straign trough it with a katana.
Sorry I meant GWF tank paragon, not GF but tactician is buffbot not tank anyway.
Well but why would someone in chainmail have (almost) same ammount of DR as someone in plate? While also getting a lot more deflection?
It is okey to move faster and deflect more, but then shoud have much less DR (which is already No 1 useless stat for PVP, because of the penetration some class have)
In most game the shield gave 1/2 or 1/3 of the player's actual defensive stats, there it is only for the guard mechanism, which forces you into only defensive stance, because u move even slower and hit even slower with guard stuff.
While GWF-s pop their unstopable, have reduced DMG income, and CC immune from all way (while GF have it only from behind).
In my head this 2 class looks fine to me, but if you are so sure about the GF is "op" then you should play it instead of your GWF.
kr3nd its not only about that the GF, cause we are talking about the at wills, hrs/trs/cws hit harder imo than surestrike. because of great base atwill damage+good weapon damage and they can stack as much power as a GWF .
kr3nd its not only about that the GF, cause we are talking about the at wills, hrs/trs/cws hit harder imo than surestrike. because of great base atwill damage+good weapon damage and they can stack as much power as a GWF .
Trust me, im NOT trying to "GF bash" I have a GF, love it and dont want it to get nerfed. Yes GWFs deal more damage than a GF that is mainly due to encounters and actually MOSTLY due to the damage buffs GWFS get that GFs dont such as powerful challenge/destroyer capstone
The only point in bringing this up is that its silly you swing such a big sword and have it do less damage than all the other classes at wills.
Comments
On my GWF with 12.3k Power and 25 STR, and GWF weapon over 1k weapon dmg, My sure strike hit a dummy for:
1124-1190
On my GF with 2441 Power, 20 STR and a MUCH lower weapon damage (671) my Crushing Surge hit for:
1698-1700
THIS is the issue.
Literally 20% of the power my GWF has, 5 LESS STR points. a weapon with nearly HALF the weapon damage and his at will hits 50% harder......
Its a pure joke.
this happened because of the previous mods where we didnt had so much boons/gear/artifacts...
the GWF was probably the only class that could've stacked POWER, so he was probably good for that, meaning that after changes the GWF isn't the only one that has power, so the old mechanic with low damage at wills and big power on GWF isn't working well.
cause other classes have big damage on at will with big power . so it's really unbalancing it out, and not sayin about your example, your example only shows how broken this thing can go up to.
Steel and Magic
That 1100-1200 dmg per at will is WITH the +10% atwill feat. Besides, GWF while gains higher at will speed, he gets damage penalty at the same time. And while crushing surge is slightly slower, let's not forget that it heals you.
Truth is, GWF's atwills suck big time. Sure strike is weak, reaping strike is lol, wicked strike is bugged, TR has a 9s charge(!) + low damage + high delay + bugged, WMS has high delay.
this argument is valid, in pve If you are a destroyer, and THAT because a destroyer can put this damage on the gf standard (stacks), with the advantage of speed.
with the detail that the gwf, destroyer or not, is an exclusively dps class, with a tree a little tougher+strange, lazy but functional aoe burst and a runner (emblematic), all that with 0 utility for the group. balance
we can not say the same for our brother defender.
if it were to be "fair" to the - mad - current state of the game, the base damage of a should be 2 / 3x greater than the value currently.
I dont whant to say that SS is good, but i think CS in gf skin isnt so much better. You cant swing it like a mad man (gwfs) to buff your crit and be moderatly save becouse of unstapable. You can do 1 max 2 hits and u must shield up or take consequences. Thats why im saying its unfair to compere those atwills...
BTW I want prone for take down back!
Steel and Magic
is not what I advocate, but is fair.
3x dmg for encounter then u can by just hiting have 10% crit more, with art weap, +10% SS, +10% form feat + speedy attack (+20% from mark)? U want to see 8-10k on 1 hit when frenzied? You know what that would mean i pvp?
Steel and Magic
well, the devs already know what they should know.
no, i want pass the potencial mark damage for the base. 35% (20% of mark+15% of powerfull challange ignoring combat advantage; can still in the mark bonus).
then you up the radius of some powers like ws to this level ((reaping strike),
eliminated aoe penalitys of damage (my real atwill damage is 20/25% lower if hit multiple targets... yeah...) turn powerfull challange/mark damage a threat bonus (that is, no big change for iv pvp ignoring intimidation... i like the effectein project for this feet).
and, if possible, turn sos a slow feet of 3,5% slow for stack (3x) when give a critical damage for "defender propose" in pve and some nice thing for pvp using the another t1 of instigator).
of course, fix slam and give life for steadfast determination.
that is my desire to balance this class.
like a says, the ayroux ideas is fair, bring justice for the game, but i believe that so manny current problems can be fixed after fix historical problems of the class.
Do you even realize that GWF hits for 800 dmg non-crit sure strike in pvp with 9k power+? 10k in one hit is absurd, that's not what we're asking. But hitting 2k non crit would be nice. At least we wouldn't heal HRs and give free stamina for CWs and SWs. Now ppl are basically facetanking sentinel at-wills and saving their stamina to dodge our encounters with their abysmal long cooldowns. Something no-one would do if attacked by a TR, for example.
about deflect.
yes GWF can go up to 50% deflect chance from profound set+bravery+tier1 scale agility feat+ dex + offhand bravery + Pots = 50% and probably a 53% with event pots.
if it's instigator with nimble runner he gets 10% more while sprinting.
if it's sentinel he goes up to from 5 stacks of weapon master 60%.
but GF can go up to 35% for what i remember.
TR scoundrels can go up to 85%
HRS combat can go up to 70%.
if you have readed it carefully all the 23 pages you would have realised this.
we want to remove mark and mark should only give threat and 8% debuff for others only.
powerfull challenge gives us 15% more damage , but to use this is only on the IV path usefull, not on the SM because SM doesn't have threating Rush. so we want to take that 15% more damage and put it on the base damage and leaving Powerfull challenge only with threat .
Mark will still give CBA.
this move will bring a nerf for intimidation for 15% damage, cause cagi/daring shout base damage is different from other encounters/atwills and dailies meaning that if intimidation is changed to 350% out of weapon damage = 3500 damage as base he will get a bigger nerf than you have expected and thing , meaning that he will not oneshot anymore and do normal burst damage, and to fill this thing i want that those encounters to get 2-3 shorter cooldowns and bring utility to the entire team by buffing the entire team after using 1 cagi and 1 daring shout, similar to GF way of playin, making the sentinel tree viable in a premade or in a match, he wont do that big crit anymore givin him a better potency on being a support.
same for destroyers he needs a better way of interrupitng targets and as we've seen on trickster way of playin, the way they daze is the best interrupt in the game, roar right now is weak. so a daze on roar should help it, cause from all the feats on that paragon he deals alot of single target damage so i think it's enough.
about instigator he only has a 50% damage bonus, he is not even close to destroyer, the paragon has only 3 feats good for PVP, the main encounters on the paragon are useless, so what i would like to see instigator to be an hybrid.
so 15-30% DR on unstopable will be for destroyer
40-80% DR will be for sentinels
and 35-50% DR will be for instigators
cuz it will have half of the damage the destroyer can do, and half of the tankyness the sentinel can have.
and it needs some other buffs to be more attractive .
so the problem is like i repeated again
the base damage of at will from a scale of 0 to 10.
its 0 , while our weapon damage it,s a 10 and same with our POWER.
but if we dont have anything on base to multiply we will lack damage.
and this doesn't bring excuses for classes like GF cause they are attacking with 1 sec cooldown before the next attack. cause in 1 second a GF deal on at will 3x more damage than i do in that second .
and about Determination gain, it would be much better to have temporary hit points increased.
for example i have 50k HP and get a crit that gets my hp to half, so at that moment when i use unstopable at full bar i want to get around 16k-17k HP as temporary hit points. this will provide a better way of fighting and not dying while you are in unstopable. and the penalty on atwills should be removed. After Unstopable it's finished you will lose the temporary hitpoints.
Or hit for 0s on a DC with that insurmountable shield thingy they put on themselves.
ALL of this was just meant to illustrate the point that I noticed over a year ago.
The class with the highest weapon damage hits for the LEAST amount of damage.
Noone is asking for 10k at will hits. But I think HITTING in the 2-3k range in PVP is more than fair for a GWF. Most of the time during just the attack animations if ALL the opponent did was move backwards (not dodge but MOVE) they will avoid the 3rd hit of sure strike.
Most of the time in PVP, due to all the dodges/CC that classes have combined with the GWF trying to skillfully use his own encoutners you wont see much at will spamming anyways. Its only when a player is trying to facetank the GWFs attacks where you see at will spamming.
Honestly all you need to do to test balance is make a fresh GWF, go sure strike the first mob you see. Then make a class like HR/CW/TR pretty much ANYONE and they will hit harder. The ONLY exception is the GF who doesnt get Crushing surge until later and his starting at will is an AoE so its MEANT to do less since SS isnt an AoE.
You know what ill go do this and come back with the post.
Things like Power/Strength bonus yadda yadda shouldnt be tied into trying to make this balanced. ALL you need to do is look at the lvl 1 characters (technically lvl 2) and itll SHOW you.
GWFs require melee range, yet their melee at will hits as hard as TRs RANGED at will "CoS"?
Made a lvl 1 GWF with 20 STR. His weapon dmg shows 22-27. My tool tip Sure Strike is 13-15. My ACTUAL damage hitting a mob is: 14-15 dmg.
I made a lvl 1 HR with 20 Dex (Same as STR for GWF) his weapon damage is 18-22. His RANGED at will tool tip shows 16-17 and he HITS for 15-17....
So explain why a RANGED class with a weapon damage thats 80% of my GWFs damage, deals MORE damage at lvl 1? Right there that should tell you things are not balanced.
Then it only gets worse as classes progress more and more to where GWFs with 12k Power and 1k weapon damage are hitting WEAKER than a 3k Power 670 weapon damage GF?
Again. If the GWFs weapon damage is around 20% more than anyone else's AND he has to be in melee range shouldnt it hit about 25% harder than anyone else's?
part of this is BASE damage on at wills need to be ABOUT doubled. I think that would be fair. Then you can look at removing AoE penalty as well as removing Unstoppable penalty and GWFs.
I agree with the above as well that all that boosted damage should be added to the "base" although I dont know how you propose doing that.... Unless you add some new "feat" to GWFs thats passive something called like "Great Weapon" that hits with your weapon deal 35% more damage....
Otherwise the only other way I can see to change things would be to buff up Strength as the best damage stat.
Ever heard of dismissing returns? probably you overcapped yourself with power.
Also note that, you hit 76 times with you at will while a GF does a single hit with crushing surge.
Personally I do never use crushing surge cus cleave hits much faster AND easier to aim with it + aoe.
Btw guys are you even sane? Reading the last 3 pages basically is all about how superios a GF is compared to a GWF.
Now compare the GF DPS paragon with the GWF TANK paragon.
GF-s have around 50% DR
15-20% deflect
yet takes it years or 5 rotation to kill any1 in pvp.
GWF-s have around 40-45% DR (woa what? without a shield hmm interesting)
as u said they can reach 30-50% deflect (ooouhhh)
and their damage output is superior compared to a GF's.
HAHAHAHAHA! WOW.....
Power has NO diminishing returns. Same with HP its a flat 167 power = 1% dmg boost. PERIOD. Doesnt matter if you have 20 power or 20,000 power. Its 167 = 1% dmg.
Actually the GWF to GF hit ratio is about 4-3 meaning you get a full 4 at wills off in the time it takes the GF to do 3 at wills.
That still doesnt anser the question why the GFs at wills hit for 50% more than the GWFs expecialyl when the GWF has 5x the amount of Power AND has more strength.
Take a 1H sword in real life, swing it with 1 hand and you might get about 1/2 to 2/3rds of the way through a watermelon.
Take a massive "great weapon" and grab it with two hands. There wouldnt even be anything left....
Well you got me I only play thiw game for like 40 days and was never stacking power on my GF.
BTW I measured the GF at-wills:
Cleave: 3hit-> between 2.4 and 2.6 sec
Crushing surge 3 hit: between 2.7 and 3 sec
But I guess tha range is shorter also GF moves really slow, so mostly realy on his encounters to deal dmg (or is it just me?), because unles someone will stand still in your at wills you will be kited.
And slicing up a watermelon depens only on how sharp your sword is, not on the size of it, you can have a big 2 handed sword which smashes it but not cut it (because has no ptoper edge), while you can go straign trough it with a katana.
Well but why would someone in chainmail have (almost) same ammount of DR as someone in plate? While also getting a lot more deflection?
It is okey to move faster and deflect more, but then shoud have much less DR (which is already No 1 useless stat for PVP, because of the penetration some class have)
In most game the shield gave 1/2 or 1/3 of the player's actual defensive stats, there it is only for the guard mechanism, which forces you into only defensive stance, because u move even slower and hit even slower with guard stuff.
While GWF-s pop their unstopable, have reduced DMG income, and CC immune from all way (while GF have it only from behind).
In my head this 2 class looks fine to me, but if you are so sure about the GF is "op" then you should play it instead of your GWF.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3n6fFiI5uA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIVY-TTtf70
you realize the two gameplays that "gwf" dont have a large radius, but have great projection.
that "projection" will be a really impossible now, so... up radius-range.
Trust me, im NOT trying to "GF bash" I have a GF, love it and dont want it to get nerfed. Yes GWFs deal more damage than a GF that is mainly due to encounters and actually MOSTLY due to the damage buffs GWFS get that GFs dont such as powerful challenge/destroyer capstone
The only point in bringing this up is that its silly you swing such a big sword and have it do less damage than all the other classes at wills.