test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Please Un-Nerf Determination gain (GWF PVP Thread)
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
I skipped Mod 4 as my GWF, played my GF during that module then took a break. About the last weekish, ive been playing my GWF and never really looked much but started doing more PVP recently.
I USED to have to lose around 15-20% of my HP and would have about 1/2 and Unstoppable bar. Now it seems I must lose closer to 40% of my HP to gain half an unstoppable and even during that half unstoppable, because its only half, I feel like I am wearing paper still.
I know this was recently changed, and I would please ask you revisit this "formula" and make it so it doesnt require AS much HP lost to get half a bar of unstoppable.
if it is HP based. I would think 15% is more than fair for HP lost with 30% lost for a full bar.
Currently I have to lose nearly half my HP just to pop unstoppable at a full bar, and by the time I do that im basically dead anyways (with all the piercing damage and high ARP damage classes like TR/HR/CW have). Also, its fairly easy to dodge a GWF now-a-days since most classes have 5+ dodges/blinks and GWFs sprint still only lasts like 4 seconds (even after being buffed)
EDIT: After some testing, it seems they changed determination gain from taking attacks, to HP lost. However their scaling seems to be about 25% HP lost for 4 second unstoppable and about 45% HP lost for a 8 second unstoppable.
Things like Entangling Force(CW CC) built ZERO determination as well as encounters he was using while I was Sprinting (with higher DR) also built very little determination. (Since you lose LITTLE hp)
I think if this is the case, they need to adjust how much % of HP lost to per determination gain. I would submit that 15-30% (half - full) would be sufficient. Thats about where it used to be when DR factored into the equation.
If you wanted to leave EVERYTHING else the same without making any changes. ALL you would need to do is give GWFs a feat (like TRs have) where they generate determination from sprinting. TRs generate stealth while dodging. So if GWFs could generate determination from sprinting it would be MUCH more fair.
I USED to have to lose around 15-20% of my HP and would have about 1/2 and Unstoppable bar. Now it seems I must lose closer to 40% of my HP to gain half an unstoppable and even during that half unstoppable, because its only half, I feel like I am wearing paper still.
I know this was recently changed, and I would please ask you revisit this "formula" and make it so it doesnt require AS much HP lost to get half a bar of unstoppable.
if it is HP based. I would think 15% is more than fair for HP lost with 30% lost for a full bar.
Currently I have to lose nearly half my HP just to pop unstoppable at a full bar, and by the time I do that im basically dead anyways (with all the piercing damage and high ARP damage classes like TR/HR/CW have). Also, its fairly easy to dodge a GWF now-a-days since most classes have 5+ dodges/blinks and GWFs sprint still only lasts like 4 seconds (even after being buffed)
EDIT: After some testing, it seems they changed determination gain from taking attacks, to HP lost. However their scaling seems to be about 25% HP lost for 4 second unstoppable and about 45% HP lost for a 8 second unstoppable.
Things like Entangling Force(CW CC) built ZERO determination as well as encounters he was using while I was Sprinting (with higher DR) also built very little determination. (Since you lose LITTLE hp)
I think if this is the case, they need to adjust how much % of HP lost to per determination gain. I would submit that 15-30% (half - full) would be sufficient. Thats about where it used to be when DR factored into the equation.
If you wanted to leave EVERYTHING else the same without making any changes. ALL you would need to do is give GWFs a feat (like TRs have) where they generate determination from sprinting. TRs generate stealth while dodging. So if GWFs could generate determination from sprinting it would be MUCH more fair.
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
It'll help a little. GWF's are in poor shape period. Easily the worst class in the game atm.
If you want to learn as a GWF to destroy CWs, go ask Mangroth or Steamroller for help.
Just PM Saber, he'll teach you how to play a GWF
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
To be honest, I haven't seen this player in any relevant premades the past several months so this comment is questionable at best. If you are going to retort how he is on top of the leaderboard, you need to first realize that there is youtube evidence of how he does it.
Well I speak from personal experience which is the only relevant source of infortamtion for me. I've fought vs him and with him, he did great job each time. Also I dont claim I know it all, just know what Ive seen.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
You should fight some of the GWFs on Chocolate Shoppe
Id rather eat a chocolate cake with them..mm yeah double glazed. They serve those at the Shoppe ?
Joking aside, Im not some big PVPer and I dont premade, so its rare occasion to meet some of these top PVP guild people. Usually when I do meet them my pug consists of 2 random people who queued together and results in a stomp. Once on my main ( GWF ) I was grouped with Saber and we fought a premade and we won, dude played well and made some good calls on party chat. So that limited experience is my base for conclusions.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
yeah..... the guy that kicks pugs....
All true. For most classes, the issue is TR OP-ness. For gwf there is the additional less-than-zero issue of its own class.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
Don't feel the need to defend you choice, you have put out greater justification for you nominee than the guy who recommended people from a known cheater guild like CS.
the guy that suddenly went to 3rd place from bottom of LB with 3 wins?ye seems so good.
Actually the biggest reason for this in module 3 was Roar. Roar was a stun + determination gainer at a very low CD. All of the GWFs in the top 5 pages are Sentinel as well as myself having all nearly identical builds (including gear). In even just PUG que-ing PVP while my K/D is pretty high each match, its only because I can eat lower GS pugs for breakfast - of which there are alot. When you play against well geared players, your HP drops instantly and you literally have 4-5 seconds during your unstoppable to blow your encounters or you die.
What that looks like is this:
Either a CW or TR or combination of 2 players (could be another GWF) dps your HP down in ~3 seconds to <50% HP. You have about 5 second of unstoppable time to pop your encounters. These encounters (if they both crit) can two shot someone.
After unstoppable wears off, your a sitting duck and usually die.
So its a who kills who first type of thing. Whats annoying about it, is how outside unstoppable a GWF literally feels helpless and is more squishy than a TR/HR/CW - all wearing "less" armor and a large portion of that tankiness they have comes from immunity frames on dodges. CWs comes from their shield which cannot be mitigated by ARP as well.
Im not asking for a major buff, what I am asking for is more frequent unstoppable, so GWFs can actually deal damage and react to other players.
This wouldnt even change K/D ratios much at all since both intimidation encounters are very long CDs. The fight would still be over with the GWF on top or dead, but he wont feel so much like a rag doll while doing it. That CW may have to blink 2 more times before finishing him off.
Or that TR may have to.... Oh who am I kidding, they just SE 1 shot you anyways.
The end of the day, losing HALF your HP for not even a FULL unstoppable is just a joke. The ONLY thing that makes GWFs even remotely competitive right now is 10k Power intimidation builds.
Take a 16k GS GWF into PVP - doesnt matter which build you use - your gonna have a hard time against players of your same GS or lower.
Its only when you fully max out a GWF that you can deal damage - but thats the issue - the Sentinel build (tank build) is a glass canon...
I think Destroyer should be the glass canon and Sents should be the tanky class.
Maybe Unstoppable DR should be brought BACK up to its 25-50% DR levels (or was it 30-50% I forget now) and the "bonus" to Sentinels Aegis to Unstoppable can be that you gain more determination from taking damage. Now Destroyers gain determination more by DEALING damage and Sents gain it more by TAKING damage. Seems fair.
As soon as players get enough DR (either by more tenacity, increased values or w.e) and can sustain the burst damage Sents deal, or if you nerf Sent damage even more by reducing intimidation, the build will die. Since it has an extremely long CD on both abilities.
I also would be in favor of dropping intimidation from 35% to 25% IF AND ONLY IF you shortened the CDs on those two abilities as well. That would reduce burst quite a bit and give slightly more "DPS" but Sents dont have good DPS, just good burst so that would be fair as well.
this is very true, i guess the people who don't know this just pugs.
Well the other thing most people dont realize is it doesnt take skill to get to the first page in PVP. Maybe the top 8 pages takes some skill, MAYBE. Getting to page 1 just requires you manage your ELO, not your wins or anything. Its pretty obvious and well known the issue with ELO/leaderboards.
Also, top page/elo/ or even K/D dont really have any bearing on if a class is balanced or not. Do GWFs have a place in PVP? Currently yes - ONLY because they are glass canons used to clear nodes the fastest.
Does that make them balanced? Id say if the TANK spec fighter is a glass canon... Probably not.
The Tank spec should be just that, lower damage and higher defenses. But its not.
Destroyer/Instigator are not even viable builds due to the low survivability. Could I get to top 5 pages with an amazing K/D ratio as destroyer? Maybe... If I never solo-Q and manage my ELO.
Is it balanced in PVP? NO.
Dude, your tongue is dark brown already. We get it. You admire gear by exploit, good for you.
"relevant premades" ... lmao. Are we both talking about NW, a game where very few PvP and they still do it on 2 maps 1 mode with no balance after almost 2 years?
How is anything that happens in that toxic cesspool relevant to anything?
100% correct....exploiter extraordinare
Currently, sentinels are less survivable than HR, TR, DC,GF, and counting CW and SW are ranged and the gwf is melee, with no dodges... yeah, it's a melee fighter that melts fast even in tank spec.
Also saying to gannicus to go learn gwf pvp...lol are you serious.
40% hp lost for half bar with no dodges and piercing damage around is easily almost the worst class mechanic around. It's as useful as a cupcacke at the flavor of horse sh*t. You pretty much pop it to heal for 2.5% hp one time with unst recovery.
But hey, we got mighty new sprint which is not even a proper dodge and mitigates damage like a shield of poo, considering how much DPS other classes can dish out now.
Seriously, for a melee class with no dodges, gwf has miserable survivability at same GS.
As gannicus said, you can slaughter low GS pugs. Vs geared enemies the supposed melee big bad boy melts in a couple of rotations, with nothing to really tank the damage thanks to dr made useless with all the piercing damage and glyphs. Even if you time your sprint, you melt fast vs good pvpers.
Would we get rid of piercing damage, it would be different. Unstoppable nerf was too much coupled with all the buffs other classes got.
The only other thing I can think of, besides just reducing the amount of HP lost for determination, is if they RATHER than damage taken or given = X determination, just made determination gain while in combat.
Out of combat it goes down at a steady rate, IN combat it increases at a steady rate.
The only downside is you can take a nuke and it wont fill determination, but it would add some urgency to attack the GWF. IF this was balanced correctly it could work out. That way, attack or dont attack the GWF they still gain determination.
Half bar is 4 seconds unstoppable. Not much really.
You should make it build quite fast or the result is the same... with new sprint, unstoppable needs a rework. Cc resistance on sprint is enough. I would rather make sprint cc res only, no dr. Then turn unstoppable in full immunity. 40% hp lost for 8s damage immunity but no cc immunity. 20% hp lost for 4s damage immunity but no cc immunity.
Now you have cc immunity on sprint to 'dodge' cc, and immunity to truly burst tank.
You can then tweak determination gain on capstones to make sentinels go unstoppable faster but with less sprint ( cc immunity), destro requiring 20%-40% for half bar/full bar, insti in the middle. Let's say a sentinel needs 20% hp lost for full bar and insti 30%. Keeping in mind in unstoppable the gwf is ccable now and sprint is cc immunity only, no dr.
Now, if i'm on my HR, what i do is try to burst when the gwf is out of unstoppable, and root him and kite when in unstoppable. TR can daze and CW can cc. GF can stun.
Sprint is not infinite so a gwf using it when out of unstoppable would have few or no sprint left during unstoppable. With no dr on sprint and current DPS level in pvp, it would be possibile to fast burst the gwf for more than 40% hp before he goes unstoppable.
So alternate cc immunity with full damage taken and DPS immunity with no cc resistance. Must use both well, but if used well can allow a gwf to burst tank current damage and avoid cc with good skills/timing.
Determination building in combat requires fine balance. Too slow and you're burst down easily. Too fast and it's too much. Btw, unstoppable dr is obsolete with current piercing damage/glyphs/auto-proc and power creep/ARP stack increase. That's why classes who can negate damage entirely through dodges can survive more than gwfs.
I think burst immunity might work better.
1- make stun not being influenced by deflect
2- piercing dmg respect some sort of dmg resistance, make piercing 50-75% resistance ignored (debuff type, similar to student of the sword)
forgot about the sunburst: pls fix that thing...
Hmm... but we have feat for that...
I dont think this solution will work.
Currently Sprint doesnt last long enough. A TR or CW can "outrun" me. Them with their dodge/roll and my GWF sprinting after them.
Both of us have (I assume) the 10% stam regen boon and I have an extra 15% Stam regen on my Stat rolls (through STR). I believe I also have another 2-3% from stats too.
If TR dodges 3x, he is out of my sprints max range with what 25% Stam regen atleast?
Same with a CW. Not to mention CWs and TRs can dodge more than 3x.
I do like the concept though. Remove the DR on Sprint (not sure why its there TBH) as its really only a tool to get TO someone.
What might work better than pure DR boost would be adding deflect chance to Unstoppable. Like 50% Deflect during Unstoppable.
Most Sents already have like 30%-40% so this would give near 90% deflect chance. I think these numbers sound fair as well:
"40% hp lost for 8s. 20% hp lost for 4s."
If they changed DR to Deflect Chance. I still think Unstoppable NEEDS CC immunity otherwise GWFs are sitting ducks without it. The second you pop it, they will just prone you the entire duration with an iceknife.
I think when Sprints duration was increased, they didnt increase stamina regen to be on par with the increase. I am wondering.
So say perviously we had 100 "stamina" that was used at 30 stamina a second.
We could sprint JUST over 3 seconds.
They bumped it up to 150 stamina, now we can sprint 5 seconds. Great.
However at 100 stamina we regen back 15/second. Meaning 6 seconds for a full 3 second sprint.
At 150 stamina did they change that or is it still at 15/sec. See what I mean?
If sprint were given faster recharge, Unstoppable 4s was at 20% HP lost and 40% HP lost = 8 seconds. They KEPT CC immunity and changed the DR over to Deflect. That may help out enough.
Key is DR can be mitigated down, where as deflect cannot. Thats why sometimes deflect is more valuable than DR.
Agree with point 1.
Disagree with point 2. There should be no piercing damage at all. Everyone can stack at least 2k armor pen, a lot of classes get further bonus from stat rolls and there's plague fire and similar enchants that can negate the remaining DR, party wide. That's more than enough.
And unstoppable has to return. At least the gain and duration.
1) Takedown -> Prones
2) Roar should DAZE
3) Frontline - Stun is fine but prone or Daze would be better. (really any "animation" so you know its working) otherwise you waste your CDs on a target who dodges.
4) Piercing damage shouldnt exist PERIOD. I understand the "logic" behind it. You dont wanna get hit 2x with the same DR. I say, so what... anything that bypasses all DR has serious coding issues.
With HR its not that OP, so maybe beef up their PD by like 25%. With TR its out of control. Remove it altogether.
determination seems to be based no longer on damage taken but pure HP lost. This may be the issue. Previously you could take 12k damage, mitigate out like 40% of it, so you would have lost 7k HP and pop unstoppable.
Now since its based on HP lost, you actually have to LOSE 10k HP before you can pop unstoppable.
Just tested. With 40k HP I had to get down to 27-29k (around 25% of my HP) to have 4 second unstoppable.
For a full unstoppable, I had to get down to about 21-22k Point (45% HP lost).
When I dropped to 30k HP I could 4 sec at ~22k (26% HP). and 8sec at ~17k (54%).
So Entangling doesnt build ANY determination. This was also tested as well.
In the past, with higher DR that meant you could pop unstoppable with losing less HP. With this new change, it doesnt matter how much you stack HP thats just more HP you have to lose before you can pop it.
It seems you made the change from it initially being calculated based on damage taken (where DR would be your ally in building determination) to where its not based on HP lost (where DR is almost now your enemy).
I dont think this was intended because if it were, it seems you didnt reduce he amount of HP lost to use unstoppable. Meaning in the past if you took 12k damage, but could mitigate out 40%, you would only have to lose about 7k HP. Now it seems you actually have to lose the FULL 12k HP.
It used to be available around the 10-15% HP lost mark as evidenced here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEX1HJOt5Bc#t=48) in one of my old NW videos.
Now with recent testing it seems Unstoppable is available at the 25% HP lost mark for 4 seconds and 45-50% HP lost mark for a full unstoppable. This is a MASSIVE nerf to the foundation the class is built on.
This is FAR too much HP lost to use unstoppable. If the idea is to make it HP based. Please consider reducing it back to 15% for half and around 30% for a full unstoppable.
Right now as a GWF, even as a tanky Sentinel I can drop in mere seconds. By the time I get to 2/3rds HP to use an unstoppable, some TR just shocking Executes me and I die instantly - since it mitigates all my DR.
Even if I can get it off, I have mere seconds to get to my target to use encounters on them, usually requires Sprint to catch them. Which means I cant use my sprint as a defensive tool to mitigate damage once it wears off and again, I get caught in CC and bursted down more.
It seems this is NOT WAI! Please let me know your thoughts.