Overall GWFs need more at will damage and more PASSIVE "CC" to enable you to not have to run CC encounters. 5% chance to daze is nothing. Even a 5% slow on encounter use is VERY small.
Your own view, i like my burst GWF and this is what the class should be imo.
so is a abusive bug and need be fixed and/or transferred to the base :rolleyes:
I'm talking about cleaning the class.
Our dmg even without that double mark is ok, problem is with the other classes dmg also due bugs: SoD at TR, Storm Spell for CW set bonus for SW, double marking is nothing compared to those.
I wouldnt change a thing for GWFs, only big thing they need is a fix on stuns to not be deflected and Sunburst/Terrifying Impact from DC.
CW repel is also way too much as i need to stop for my encounter and they have more than enough time to repel me.
Now is so easy for any gwf to get that DT set and that is rly strong no matter the enchantment lvl, rank 7-8 are more than enough to make it work, good GWF companions are also cheap. Is no ones fault that a fresh lvl 60 gwf thinks he is Laz and go a glass cannon route...
nope, the problem IS gwf damage, its ffn pathetic, ive hit 7k dmg IBS @ 10k power and legendary weapon
ofc when you get all stacks the damage is almost ok, but you wont always have all stacks up
GWF were completely destroyed thanks to ppl trying to facetank unstoppable and then crying on forums
its a complete mess
some skills/feats/gear presents us as tanks, then again we dont have any decent on demand mitigation(unstoppable isnt really on demand) + if you stack hp for tanking you get much less unstoppable because of wtf determination gain, we have marks and some aggro generating feats, but still we dont generate enough threat to be a low dps tank
we have a bunch of aoe skills+ class features, and then get penalty for hitting multiple targets
base damage is %$@#%$ and we rely on stacks adding to 100%+ damage
we are supposed to have cc immunity, but still most bosses, some mobs and skills knock us around
they removed most utility, but we dont get real damage either
Your own view, i like my burst GWF and this is what the class should be imo.
Our dmg even without that double mark is ok, problem is with the other classes dmg also due bugs: SoD at TR, Storm Spell for CW set bonus for SW, double marking is nothing compared to those.
is a problem too. but have a frankstein class deformed by emergencials changes (like intimidation, mark) is not a good thing anyway.
and i dont believe in a general nerf. will be a game suicide. I believe the performance of gwf, being solid, represent a qualitative increase in the proportion of a broken buff (elimineted first the other broken things).
so, using this filosofy, other classes can be changed during m7/m8, and the sanity will back to the game. what? iam a purist gwf too.
Pls, can someone explain to me why you all have this obsession with "mark + powerful challenge" when all that damage [+35%] must be on the CLASS itself?
Your also forgetting combat advantage damage bonus. Which adds another 8-12%ish.
The issue is you HAVE to use threatening rush and HAVE to have stacks and HAVE to not get kited around OR have bad ping because threatrush is one of the most laggy pieces of HAMSTER there are.
About half the time I TR to mark someone, they dont get marked because they added a MASSIVE animation delay after TR because people were complaining about TR was a pro gap closer. So they not only added stacks (3 times) but also added a MAJOR animation delay after using it so you cant attack right away.
The other issue is the really poor range on the skill combined with the server side connection. On YOUR screen it will lunge forward, but then it checks the server side, says your too far away and rebounds you back. That is PRECIOUS time wasted (1-2 seconds) when playing a ranged class that you just lost the ability to get to.
Also it really is infuriating when you DO get to them, but your TR didnt mark or that you have to run into a fight and before using encounters or attacking have to prep to "mark" them because without it, your at will hits for under 1k and your intimidation will crit (if your lucky) for about 12k with nearly 11k Power and legendary weapon with a 15 second CD encounter.
Seem fair? No.
Its stupid that around 56% of our damage boost comes from Mark. Its obvious to me that if our class NEED 56%+ damage from mark combined with a 50% damage boost capstone that our damage is CLEARLY not where it needs to be. Mark was a lazy way out.
Frankly they only gave GWFs mark = 20% damage boost AND combat advantage damage because GFs Tab ability was SO underwhelming they buffed THAT to 20%+CA damage. Then they realized that GWFs damage (module 4) was too terrible because they nerfed nearly EVERY skill we had, so they gave us the same mark as well.
but if the stun would hit, then you mark with TR and use an encouter. TR should be just that a gap closer to immobilize targets, we have sprint as a gap closer.
The main problem for GWF is that it can no longer keep targets immobile to land our long animation encounters, if the stun would get a fix i think the class will be in a good shape. Also some work on our long cooldowns would be nice, we have a short cooldown stun that is almost impossible to land and a range stun that has a huge cooldown, somehow i find myself having choosing over 2 bad things...
Well, clonkyo sir, my obsession with mark (damage) is very simple:
that damage come from a mechanical exported from a gf + t2 feet of sentinel nullifies, by definition, the principle that it is necessary separate "dps and tank", ie the reason to "rebuilt" the class during m3 / m4 (nerf bleed and unstoppable).
I will not even mention other classes that have been improved in their duality (cw, coff, coff).
but if the stun would hit, then you mark with TR and use an encouter. TR should be just that a gap closer to immobilize targets, we have sprint as a gap closer.
The main problem for GWF is that it can no longer keep targets immobile to land our long animation encounters, if the stun would get a fix i think the class will be in a good shape. Also some work on our long cooldowns would be nice, we have a short cooldown stun that is almost impossible to land and a range stun that has a huge cooldown, somehow i find myself having choosing over 2 bad things...
What "stun"? Frontline surge? That has a 12 second CD? What if they dodge, or not to mention it lasts for like .5 seconds if deflected in PVP. Oh and you have to get within pretty close melee range TO stun them.
"We have sprint as a gap closer" - well, only partially true because we are FORCED to have to use this as a defensive tool NOT a gap closer. Thats part of the issue with them trying to make Unstoppable less effective and Sprint more defensive.
Maybe if we got a 20% movement speed buff during unstoppable as well, then you might be able to use these tool correctly. When you need sprint to avoid CC, you dont have the luxury of using it as a gap closer.
When you have to wait until your HP drops enough to pop unstoppable to THEN use sprint during unstoppable because when you stop sprinting, your dead meat, so thats the only way youll get to actually use encounters.
I actually think the main problem of the GWF is we HAVE to rely on those "combos" and "setting up damage" to have a CHANCE to deal very high burst damage.
Sentinels? You HAVE to get in range, Mark with TR, then use your 15sec encounters and have them both CRIT (intimidation) to 2 shot the target. Once your encounters are on CD you deal VERY little damage.
Destroyers? You have to get down to about 65% HP to pop unstoppable to then build up stacks. Well, once youve built up stacks, how long will it take for a TR or CW to kill you if you have 60% HP? So good luck getting an encounter off.
Nobody plays Instigator so it doesnt matter.
What needs to happen is MORE damage needs to be removed from these "damage setups" and "1 trip pony" setups and back onto our other forms of damage, like at wills. I mean cmon, do we need 55%+ damage on Mark AND 50%+ damage from a capstone.
Do we REALLY need +100% damage bonus to compete with other classes?!?! 100% FREAKING more damage?! really?!
How about we 2x-3x our at will damage, reduce the damage bonuses a tad, and give us more base damage through STR.
NOW what youll see is a GWF who doesnt have to 2 shot a target to compete, who can get up in their face and take chunks on their HP with at wills, who can deal GOOD damage with encounters but doesnt have to "roll the dice" hoping you crit them enough to kill them or you know they will kill you....
On the contrary, GWF stuns last too long, if anything -- if you get hit, and don't deflect, you'll be stunned forever. (Though still not nearly as long as a scoundrel's dazes.) The issue of stuns not lasting long enough to follow up is primarily an issue against high-deflect classes like TRs, HRs and other GWFs.
Disagree. Its not that stuns last too long, the only time this FEELS too long is when a GWF uses BOTH takedown AND frontline surge.
The real issue with them "lasting too long" isnt the stun time its actually the burst damage for ALL classes in PVP right now.
Back pre-module 1 being stunned for 2 seconds was meh, cause you knew you wouldnt drop in 1 sec while your stunned with a 30k+ Crit.
In todays pvp, if your not in stealth, or in unstoppable, or currently blocking, etc you WILL die in 1 good "combo" or crit by a target.
CWs proccing Assailing Force + Inceknife = 20-30k dmg
GWFs using DS+CAGI intimidations that crit = 30k damage+
TRs using either lashing or SE = easily 30k+ dmg
ETC ETC.
I remember back module 1 a 10k crit was a nice number to see, Players had 25-35k HP back then.
Now its pretty easy to see a 30k Crit and unless your a GF, you probably have in the mid 40s in HP. See the ratio difference?
This is ALL why I keep proposing that Tenacitys damage resistance needs to be doubled. If you have 10% base CC resist.Crit reduction but 20% BASE less damage in PVP. Stack another 15% for 25% Crit/CC resist currently. That 15% DAMAGE would turn into 30% damage giving you 50% less damage in PVP while keeping 25% CC and crit the same. So DOUBLE just the damage portion.
THAT would diminish these 1 shot builds.
This would be a start, but probably still not the solution. This would give you more effective HP to take those hits.
Sorry, i just read that: You are wrong. As i said: the MARK should not be our source of damage. DS and exec IBS should grants to the class the CA bonus due "mark", but the "damage" bonus itself from the mark must be returned to the class, and remorve it (the mark) as our main "source" of damage. Period.
And I agree with you, so how am I wrong? I dont want mark to be the source of our damage and have been saying that the last 10 pages?
On the contrary, GWF stuns last too long, if anything -- if you get hit, and don't deflect, you'll be stunned forever. (Though still not nearly as long as a scoundrel's dazes.) The issue of stuns not lasting long enough to follow up is primarily an issue against high-deflect classes like TRs, HRs and other GWFs.
yes and that is what i want fix, the interaction between stun and deflect. CC does get a huge time reduction by tenacity and classes like CW have additional reduction plus boons and racials, but if i manage to land a 17 sec stun (FLS CD) i want to at least hit 1 encouter after.
HR/TR even CW DC are all very mobile classes and i have to wait a good amount of time to even use my stun, taking that time to build up stacks and marks while trying to keep myself alive, so even when i decide to use FLS i still have a good chance to miss since TR is most likely in stealth, HR needs to be caught at the right time or he;ll be in an immunity frame , while for DC/CW i need to trick them into jumping more than they should not to mention that i need to position myself or get pushed half a map....
I think that's a more than fair expectation. However, I think ultimately, GWFs should have to rely less on big hits like that to be a threat and have a more consistent ability to deal damage.
But that is the beauty of the gwf, you are dodging because you are afraid of that huge potential burst, otherwise you would have a much easier time with the dodge timing. As a cw you;ll know that you can take some hits and dodge a bit later, as it is you dont know exactly how much dmg you;ll take from a rotation: can be nothing like 30% or 80% of the HP so you arent that willing to take that chance and you dodge everytime i get in range
At-wills in pve do enough dmg, they are 30% of the overall dmg.
In pvp they are only a setup for the burst, they do increase my crit chance 14% so the longer you are staying in my small at-will hits the higher the chance to get killed in one rotation, they also provide a 10% extra deflect, so even if i dont hit hard you dont rly want to get hit by them...
actually, IBS damage is really mediocre on its own, whats making it hit hard is the mark, and executioner's style (which you will most likely die anyway even without the feat)
IBS should actually be buffed more since its hard to hit with this encounter and when you finally hit, its most likely deflected, or greatly reduced (CW shield tab, sprints, astral shield)
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited January 2015
Major issues for all classes
A. Multiple stuns/dazes/cc effectively locking you down for entire time (full hp to death, proc soulforge, the CC is up again)
B. Multiple classes with ignore resistance damage types (so whats the point of having 4000 defense, 2000 deflect 36 AC with 20% tenacity, all that does is keep you up from poeple who dont know what they are doing)
c. Passives that take massive damage for them basically proccing one damage, not good, when you lose 20k hitpoints , even with massive DR , for something you cant dodge, avoid, resist. Those are the WtH moments.
OVERALL , I would state the worst thing in PVP is the unavoidable damage and not respecting defensive stats. Fix this and things are not just boom , boom your dead over and over.
Why people think this mods pvp is any good is beyond me, PVP was at its best Post tenacity to end of Mod 3, they really boinked it after that.. with mods 4 and 5 doing some out of control things.
actually, IBS damage is really mediocre on its own, whats making it hit hard is the mark, and executioner's style (which you will most likely die anyway even without the feat)
IBS should actually be buffed more since its hard to hit with this encounter and when you finally hit, its most likely deflected, or greatly reduced (CW shield tab, sprints, astral shield)
IBS shouldnt be possible to deflect. It is indomitable after all, if you get hit you get all of it, then the only thing that mitigates is your DR. Seriously that is the ultimate enounter we get after leveling up and its meh at best in its current form. As it stands now I only use IBS if Im put vs low GS pugs who dont know better and get hit and die in one IBS crit.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
i;ve dropped IBS a long time ago, only thing that works for me is FLS/TR/DS/CAGI in that rotation or TR/FLS/DS/CAGI any other rotation would put me in a too much of a disadvantage... Only using IBS instead of FLS for pve bosses.
I agree that damage is too high compared to durability now, but that does not mean the stuns aren't also separately too much. It's not fun to be stunned and stand helplessly by while you die. That was what was wrong with CWs against most classes in module 4, it's what's wrong with scoundrels now, and it's also true to a lesser extent of GWF stuns if they land a big IBS or Intimidation hit. That kind of gameplay simply isn't fun.
Against GWFs in particular, it often feels unfair because they can control you to death (or nearly so), but if you control them and start doing damage, they can pop unstoppable and escape, making it an asymmetric relationship. That was at the core of what made the module 3 GWF so unbelievably broken and unfair to play against; they had high-frequency cc they could follow up with high damage, and they'd quickly pop unstoppable to escape if caught. On top of that, GWFs can also frequently boast high deflection, making them frequently escape control effects quickly apart from unstoppable, so GWFs are more of a beneficiary of that effect than most classes are.
The current state of the GWF feels more balanced in terms of its ability to resist and dish out control effects, but they need the ability to deal more consistent damage (i.e. harder-hitting at-wills) and less huge bursts (i.e. IBS shouldn't do as much damage), and they need to rely less on ability that scales in a way that makes it overpowered at maximum gear and underpowered at lower gear levels.
I dont want any of this to come across the wrong way, so first, I thank you for participating in this discussion and I hope you continue to do so. But you need to understand a few things because you dont play the GWF class. Looking in, you might see two things that you think are an "unfair" advantage.
1) Unstoppable Breaks CC
2) "IBS/Intimidation" hits are too high
But what you dont know about those things, from just not playing the class, is GWFs have no way of avoiding CC. Sprint is used as a gap closer and because we have very limited sprint, we dont have the ability MOST of the time to use it defensively. If we use it defensively we lost our ability to get TO our target and cant do any damage, therefore you have to choose weather you want to live another 3-4 seconds or you want a chance to kill your target. Thats what Sprint is...
So right off the bat we can:
A) Get to you - but then are sitting ducks Wait until we pop unstoppable then use sprint to get to you, and have a chance to deal damage.
If we do option A, you live longer but its about a 95% chance guaranteed youll lose the matchup and die. If you do Option B, you have about a 50-50 chance to win, IF you are not kited while in unstoppable, IF you can get off BOTH intimidation hits and ATLEAST have 1 crit. Otherwise any decent geared PVP player can easily live through even two intimidation non crits. Even if one crits there is also a high chance the second one gets dodged/deflected.
But what about unstoppable breaking CC!!!???
You have to lose 35-45% of your HP to even gain enough determination to pop unstoppable. You gain nearly zero determination while IN sprint, so its literally a function of HP % lost. Where as other classes can dodge/stealth/block/shield on tab right off the bat without any HP loss. This creates a very one sided match, where destroyers get very very small window to build destroyer stacks, and even Sentinels get a small window during unstoppable IF you didnt waste sprint outside of it defensively, to get TO you to deal damage. Otherwise you just wont hit your target.
SO when you say:
"but if you control them and start doing damage, they can pop unstoppable and escape, making it an asymmetric relationship" Your leaving out the part that they have NO dodge type mechanic, if we use sprint to avoid CC outside unstoppable, we lose ALL our offensive potential, and we have to lose about 1/4-1/2 our HP to get a 4ish second window TO attack. Still seem "asymmetric"? Well it does to me, but against the GWF. Not to mention the ONLY form of CC we have are stuns which literally last about .5 seconds on most PVP players.
When looking at damage. Its not the abilities themselves that deal too much damage. This is EXACTLY what got GWFs here in the first place. People not knowing the class, coming to the forums saying "We got 12k crit on a takedown! WTF nerf takedown!!!!"
When takedown was never the problem. Your looking at Intimidation and IBS and saying "IBS shouldn't do as much damage". This is putting the cart infront of the horse. Its not IBS that does alot of damage at all. Ill walk you through WHY here:
I have 25 STR and 11,000 Power and 4 Orange artifact equip (including MH) so these are pretty much BIS numbers.
I normally play Sentinel but want to show you destroyer so I respecced on the PTR just to test this out. FYI- all of these numbers are non crits therefore in pvp their damage would be about 30-40% less what you see here.
Sure Strike (base): 1150-1200 on a target dummy.
IBS (base): 8,500 on a target dummy.
Again both of these are dummies so the PVP damage would be around 700 for an at will sure strike and 5,100 ish for an IBS. This is BIS geared with 11k Power! Does that seem OP at all? No!
Well when I MERELY add Mark (which also gives CA and Powerful challenge buff)
Sure Strike: 1900-2100
IBS: 12,000
Again drop that for tenacity and: ~1300 Sure Strike in PVP and ~7,500 IBS. Still seem OP? Not really.....
Well NOW we add the Destroyer Capstone stacks (a 50% damage boost):
Sure Strike: 2,700
IBS: 20k NON-crit.
Wow.... a BIG difference..... But still, netting out tenacity: 1700 Sure Strike and 12,000-14,000 IBS.
Ok now that seems like a "fair" range. Crits would be worth roughly double (with a perfect vorpal)
Well where do I see these massive 40k+ IBS crits then?
Well NOW you add in the Destroyer FEAT: The problem HERE though is it stacks 3 times off ONLY normal hits (meaning no DoTs) and its HARD to get more than 1-2 stacks at most AND stacks fall off after ~3 seconds of not attacking. Meaning the damage bonus youll get from this has a MASSIVE range and is VERY unreliable. Also you LOSE either 10% crit to use this or Bravery which is your speed boost + deflect. SO even that is a MASSIVE tradeoff.
But lets add all 3 stacks of Destroyer FEAT:
Sure Strike: 4,100!
IBS: ~30,000 NON crits! On a Dummy this would be a 60k CRIT
Netting out tenacity NOW you have ~2500 at will NON crits and ~20k NON crits IN PVP! add in ANY other debuffs from other classes liek DC or GPF and that can be 25k+ Non Crits EASILY.
So now we have a damage range of:
Sure Strike (in pvp): 700-2,500
IBS: 5,100 - 20,000 NON crits.
Wow... What a damage range!!!!
So what we NEED to see happen is that LOWER number actually needs to be BUFFED! The higher number needs to be LOWERED. Well the ONLY way that will happen is if you actually find a way to BUFF the base ability, but LOWER the damage multipliers.
Well thats an entirely different story than someone saying "IBS shouldnt hit so hard" isnt it? Thats not quite accurate. It SHOULD be "GWFS shouldnt have to rely so much on damage boosts do deal adequate damage"
Because lets see what has to happen to get that 20k IBS:
1) The Destroyer (which is WORSE than a glass canon atm) has to lose about 35% of his HP realistically to pop unstoppable. THEN he has to hit someone 10 times to get 10 destroyer stacks. THEN he has to ALSO get 3 stacks of his Destroyer FEAT that fade after NOT hitting for 3 seconds, THEN use his IBS (which has a massive windup animation). Possible? MAYBE if you have a CW CC the target or a TR daze them...
Probable? Not really....
Oh I also didnt add the (up to) 30% damage boost based on missing HP of the target. This frankly doesnt matter a ton because even if the target is at half HP, where you get about 15% of the damage boost, they probably would have died without that damage boost anyways. But that also could take that 20k IBS up another notch to like 23k-24k NON crits. Meaning nearly 50k Crit in PVP with a perfect vorpal.
So whats the solution here? Ill post in a second post below.
I have been chewing on the entire "Mark" Problem. I want to propose this for GWFs (not sure about GFs yet)
Mark: ONLY gives the GWF and his allies combat advantage damage bonus. It offers NO flat "damage bonus" therefore the advantage of mark means its easy to get that CA damage bonus - but this can also be attained by attacking an opponent from behind OR if you have a GF the "advantage" is nullified.
What this does is makes both swordmaster and IV a little more on par with eachother, IV has an easier time getting CA bonus if they mark with TR. Swordmaster can still get this, with a little extra effort or partnering with a GF.
Seems MORE fair atleast right?
Well THEN we take Powerful Challenge and remove that (possibly for a feat that gives you determination gain while sprinting). What about that 15% damage boost? Well that can be mostly gained back from Strength (making 2% dmg for each point - up from 1%)
This would be about 10-15% increase to BASE damage for GWFs without having to Mark. Mark only adds CA bonus meaning it can still be obtained (that dmg bonus) without marking.
So what about the 20% damage boost we are losing still? Well THIS is where I propose the following:
1) At will damage DOUBLED across the board.
2) REMOVE any damage penalty on at wills during Unstoppable - meaning Unstoppable becomes a net DPS GAIN when using at wills.
While we would lose that 20% damage on encounters (like IBS/Intimidation/etc) I think that doubling at will damage as well as making them hit harder while in unstoppable would (or could) make up that 20% damage difference.
So NOW you would have something like:
Sure Stike (Base): (1200*2=2400 *1.15(STR addition))= 2,760 on a dummy. And easily over 3k if you add combat advantage damage.
IBS: (8,500*1.15 (STR)) = 9,775 damage on a dummy. Easily over 11k with CA bonus.
Those seem better atleast. We closed the gap on at wills versus encounters. Spread out the damage more, slightly less burst damage but more sustained damage for GWFs.
Well if we start adding ALL those multipliers in Destroyer this might be a problem now... I think losing that 20% damage from mark, would bring Intimidation levels down quite a bit, so I dont think you would even need to change that (since NOW youd also fix the 'double mark' that is happening with DS and TR) - Just trust me Intimidation would lose alot of burst damage.
I really liked the earlier idea of making Intimidation a % of weapon damage. So IF these nerfs happened, I think the 350% of weapon damage would actually be perfect, allowing GWFs to stack other stats besides pure power, to get this.
So for Destroyers what I would like to see happen to the Destroyer FEAT itself (not capstone):
Reduce the damage per stack but extend the duration stacks last to stay maintained while in combat. (Overall I think a net of ~7% damage per stack (I think its like 9.5% right now) would be adequate and give Destroyers much more PUNCH outside unstoppable.
If you get 2 stacks of destroyer feat up, they remain in force until you leave combat. Meaning this damage boost is more reliable but less effective overall.
Then I would suggest NERFING the capstone's 20% extra encounter damage while in unstoppable. Bringing the entire capstone back down to 40% total damage boost as well.
This means youd get 4% damage per stacks instead of 5% damage per stack (stacks 10 times).
I think this could bring destroyers into a nice spot for damage. Keep in mind at wills were doubled in damage, STR gives another 10-15% more damage and you no longer lose damage using at wills IN unstoppable AND youll have a much more reliable-stackable destroyer feat.
Will you lose OVERALL DPS on an extended boss fight? Potentially. But youll have much higher AoE damage as well as more sustainable damage. ALSO dont forget Sprint giving determination which means faster stacks, faster at will hits at no reduced damage.
I think THESE changes would adjust the damage problems. But NOW what about the fact that the SENTINEL is a freaking glass canon and he Destroyer is squishier than a CW?!
Well I think that needs to be made up with The Sprint granting determination.
What THAT allows you to do is use sprint in either offensive or defensive because NOW you have faster access to unstoppable to use either offensively or defensively. If you sprint and use all your meter, it should grant something like 25% of determination bar. Meaning NOW you have access to unstoppable by losing about 12%-15% of your HP rather than 25%-30%. Thats a MASSIVE difference.
This makes Destroyers have faster access, giving them faster stacks, making them less squishy. Makes Sentinels have the same thing. Faster access.
I DONT think this would make the class OP at all.
Now if anything, the damage still might need a little buff, but I dont want to go too crazy on the damage buffs. We just added tankiness and evened out damage to be less on the lower end but also less on the top end.
What I would THEN adjust would be CC effects. THings like Frontline/Takedown given BACK a prone (though a short one) and things like Roar possibly doing a 2 sec Daze (PVE) and 1 second on players (PVP).
I think adding back in a small level of CC would be very helpful to the class. Now you might actually see destroyers in pvp again, Sentinels would lose the crazy burst and feel much more tanky, which I think would be fine.
Making Intimidation weapon damage based, would also free up the Sentinel GWF to use other encounters since more of their damage comes from at wills and less from the (one trick pony build) meaning they could potentially grab more CC or choose IBS for more damage.
This opens up MANY possible builds/specs without making the class TOO tanky or spit out TOO much damage.
Destroyers could probably still get 25-30k crits in PVP. But probably more on the <20k range.
sentinels would be doing maybe 15k Intimidation crits, but probably would only slot ONE intimidation move, in favor of IBS/Restoring/CC abilities. ETC.
I havnt gone over Instagtor builds yet which DO need love, I wanna fix the class FIRST tho.
1 - to much damage come to a atwill will destroy more and more the pve AND if you try bargain more and more for that pvp "agenda" (i like the concept, but now is a game suicide), in the end, gwf will be worse than now.
2 - destroyer is not a controller tree to have a fast daze for roar. in fact, gwf is not a controller class to have daze. again, slow, for a melee off tank represent close gap. daze = dont take damage.
3 - a slow burst encounter like ibs can be dodge; each sure strikes hit, no.
a player x can not complain to die for the most slow burst encounter for a glass cannon that need stacks to do a good damage when, in this same time, have other class, invisible, give more damage. ibs is not a emergency of game. the only bad thing (and sad) is a melee aoe dps only have a single burst aoe encounter, with too HAMSTER range/cap since the begining of the game.
again, this atwill change, in the past, should be a really good addition "pre-stacks age". after the "stacks age", is too much. and if take away the stacks, gwf... i dont will say die, because is dead now. in fact i dont have a expression to define how bad will be if so HAMSTER damage start to lose your stacks to be changed for a extra 50% in atwills and 70% less in the single burst damage of the tree.
first, lets put gwf in a good spot without major damage reworks (rework=new concept). is a matter of being conservative. reworks destroyed the game. gwf dont need to be part of the problem. maybe is a good idea, BUT is unpredictable.
i;ve dropped IBS a long time ago, only thing that works for me is FLS/TR/DS/CAGI in that rotation or TR/FLS/DS/CAGI any other rotation would put me in a too much of a disadvantage... Only using IBS instead of FLS for pve bosses.
Grats on eliminating your irritable bowel syndrome! Share your secret with the world!
Comments
Your own view, i like my burst GWF and this is what the class should be imo.
Our dmg even without that double mark is ok, problem is with the other classes dmg also due bugs: SoD at TR, Storm Spell for CW set bonus for SW, double marking is nothing compared to those.
I wouldnt change a thing for GWFs, only big thing they need is a fix on stuns to not be deflected and Sunburst/Terrifying Impact from DC.
CW repel is also way too much as i need to stop for my encounter and they have more than enough time to repel me.
Now is so easy for any gwf to get that DT set and that is rly strong no matter the enchantment lvl, rank 7-8 are more than enough to make it work, good GWF companions are also cheap. Is no ones fault that a fresh lvl 60 gwf thinks he is Laz and go a glass cannon route...
ofc when you get all stacks the damage is almost ok, but you wont always have all stacks up
GWF were completely destroyed thanks to ppl trying to facetank unstoppable and then crying on forums
its a complete mess
some skills/feats/gear presents us as tanks, then again we dont have any decent on demand mitigation(unstoppable isnt really on demand) + if you stack hp for tanking you get much less unstoppable because of wtf determination gain, we have marks and some aggro generating feats, but still we dont generate enough threat to be a low dps tank
we have a bunch of aoe skills+ class features, and then get penalty for hitting multiple targets
base damage is %$@#%$ and we rely on stacks adding to 100%+ damage
we are supposed to have cc immunity, but still most bosses, some mobs and skills knock us around
they removed most utility, but we dont get real damage either
is a problem too. but have a frankstein class deformed by emergencials changes (like intimidation, mark) is not a good thing anyway.
and i dont believe in a general nerf. will be a game suicide. I believe the performance of gwf, being solid, represent a qualitative increase in the proportion of a broken buff (elimineted first the other broken things).
so, using this filosofy, other classes can be changed during m7/m8, and the sanity will back to the game. what? iam a purist gwf too.
Your also forgetting combat advantage damage bonus. Which adds another 8-12%ish.
The issue is you HAVE to use threatening rush and HAVE to have stacks and HAVE to not get kited around OR have bad ping because threatrush is one of the most laggy pieces of HAMSTER there are.
About half the time I TR to mark someone, they dont get marked because they added a MASSIVE animation delay after TR because people were complaining about TR was a pro gap closer. So they not only added stacks (3 times) but also added a MAJOR animation delay after using it so you cant attack right away.
The other issue is the really poor range on the skill combined with the server side connection. On YOUR screen it will lunge forward, but then it checks the server side, says your too far away and rebounds you back. That is PRECIOUS time wasted (1-2 seconds) when playing a ranged class that you just lost the ability to get to.
Also it really is infuriating when you DO get to them, but your TR didnt mark or that you have to run into a fight and before using encounters or attacking have to prep to "mark" them because without it, your at will hits for under 1k and your intimidation will crit (if your lucky) for about 12k with nearly 11k Power and legendary weapon with a 15 second CD encounter.
Seem fair? No.
Its stupid that around 56% of our damage boost comes from Mark. Its obvious to me that if our class NEED 56%+ damage from mark combined with a 50% damage boost capstone that our damage is CLEARLY not where it needs to be. Mark was a lazy way out.
Frankly they only gave GWFs mark = 20% damage boost AND combat advantage damage because GFs Tab ability was SO underwhelming they buffed THAT to 20%+CA damage. Then they realized that GWFs damage (module 4) was too terrible because they nerfed nearly EVERY skill we had, so they gave us the same mark as well.
Its just flat out dumb.
but if the stun would hit, then you mark with TR and use an encouter. TR should be just that a gap closer to immobilize targets, we have sprint as a gap closer.
The main problem for GWF is that it can no longer keep targets immobile to land our long animation encounters, if the stun would get a fix i think the class will be in a good shape. Also some work on our long cooldowns would be nice, we have a short cooldown stun that is almost impossible to land and a range stun that has a huge cooldown, somehow i find myself having choosing over 2 bad things...
that damage come from a mechanical exported from a gf + t2 feet of sentinel nullifies, by definition, the principle that it is necessary separate "dps and tank", ie the reason to "rebuilt" the class during m3 / m4 (nerf bleed and unstoppable).
I will not even mention other classes that have been improved in their duality (cw, coff, coff).
The discussion is the same.
What "stun"? Frontline surge? That has a 12 second CD? What if they dodge, or not to mention it lasts for like .5 seconds if deflected in PVP. Oh and you have to get within pretty close melee range TO stun them.
"We have sprint as a gap closer" - well, only partially true because we are FORCED to have to use this as a defensive tool NOT a gap closer. Thats part of the issue with them trying to make Unstoppable less effective and Sprint more defensive.
Maybe if we got a 20% movement speed buff during unstoppable as well, then you might be able to use these tool correctly. When you need sprint to avoid CC, you dont have the luxury of using it as a gap closer.
When you have to wait until your HP drops enough to pop unstoppable to THEN use sprint during unstoppable because when you stop sprinting, your dead meat, so thats the only way youll get to actually use encounters.
I actually think the main problem of the GWF is we HAVE to rely on those "combos" and "setting up damage" to have a CHANCE to deal very high burst damage.
Sentinels? You HAVE to get in range, Mark with TR, then use your 15sec encounters and have them both CRIT (intimidation) to 2 shot the target. Once your encounters are on CD you deal VERY little damage.
Destroyers? You have to get down to about 65% HP to pop unstoppable to then build up stacks. Well, once youve built up stacks, how long will it take for a TR or CW to kill you if you have 60% HP? So good luck getting an encounter off.
Nobody plays Instigator so it doesnt matter.
What needs to happen is MORE damage needs to be removed from these "damage setups" and "1 trip pony" setups and back onto our other forms of damage, like at wills. I mean cmon, do we need 55%+ damage on Mark AND 50%+ damage from a capstone.
Do we REALLY need +100% damage bonus to compete with other classes?!?! 100% FREAKING more damage?! really?!
How about we 2x-3x our at will damage, reduce the damage bonuses a tad, and give us more base damage through STR.
NOW what youll see is a GWF who doesnt have to 2 shot a target to compete, who can get up in their face and take chunks on their HP with at wills, who can deal GOOD damage with encounters but doesnt have to "roll the dice" hoping you crit them enough to kill them or you know they will kill you....
Disagree. Its not that stuns last too long, the only time this FEELS too long is when a GWF uses BOTH takedown AND frontline surge.
The real issue with them "lasting too long" isnt the stun time its actually the burst damage for ALL classes in PVP right now.
Back pre-module 1 being stunned for 2 seconds was meh, cause you knew you wouldnt drop in 1 sec while your stunned with a 30k+ Crit.
In todays pvp, if your not in stealth, or in unstoppable, or currently blocking, etc you WILL die in 1 good "combo" or crit by a target.
CWs proccing Assailing Force + Inceknife = 20-30k dmg
GWFs using DS+CAGI intimidations that crit = 30k damage+
TRs using either lashing or SE = easily 30k+ dmg
ETC ETC.
I remember back module 1 a 10k crit was a nice number to see, Players had 25-35k HP back then.
Now its pretty easy to see a 30k Crit and unless your a GF, you probably have in the mid 40s in HP. See the ratio difference?
This is ALL why I keep proposing that Tenacitys damage resistance needs to be doubled. If you have 10% base CC resist.Crit reduction but 20% BASE less damage in PVP. Stack another 15% for 25% Crit/CC resist currently. That 15% DAMAGE would turn into 30% damage giving you 50% less damage in PVP while keeping 25% CC and crit the same. So DOUBLE just the damage portion.
THAT would diminish these 1 shot builds.
This would be a start, but probably still not the solution. This would give you more effective HP to take those hits.
And I agree with you, so how am I wrong? I dont want mark to be the source of our damage and have been saying that the last 10 pages?
yes and that is what i want fix, the interaction between stun and deflect. CC does get a huge time reduction by tenacity and classes like CW have additional reduction plus boons and racials, but if i manage to land a 17 sec stun (FLS CD) i want to at least hit 1 encouter after.
HR/TR even CW DC are all very mobile classes and i have to wait a good amount of time to even use my stun, taking that time to build up stacks and marks while trying to keep myself alive, so even when i decide to use FLS i still have a good chance to miss since TR is most likely in stealth, HR needs to be caught at the right time or he;ll be in an immunity frame , while for DC/CW i need to trick them into jumping more than they should not to mention that i need to position myself or get pushed half a map....
But that is the beauty of the gwf, you are dodging because you are afraid of that huge potential burst, otherwise you would have a much easier time with the dodge timing. As a cw you;ll know that you can take some hits and dodge a bit later, as it is you dont know exactly how much dmg you;ll take from a rotation: can be nothing like 30% or 80% of the HP so you arent that willing to take that chance and you dodge everytime i get in range
At-wills in pve do enough dmg, they are 30% of the overall dmg.
In pvp they are only a setup for the burst, they do increase my crit chance 14% so the longer you are staying in my small at-will hits the higher the chance to get killed in one rotation, they also provide a 10% extra deflect, so even if i dont hit hard you dont rly want to get hit by them...
IBS should actually be buffed more since its hard to hit with this encounter and when you finally hit, its most likely deflected, or greatly reduced (CW shield tab, sprints, astral shield)
A. Multiple stuns/dazes/cc effectively locking you down for entire time (full hp to death, proc soulforge, the CC is up again)
B. Multiple classes with ignore resistance damage types (so whats the point of having 4000 defense, 2000 deflect 36 AC with 20% tenacity, all that does is keep you up from poeple who dont know what they are doing)
c. Passives that take massive damage for them basically proccing one damage, not good, when you lose 20k hitpoints , even with massive DR , for something you cant dodge, avoid, resist. Those are the WtH moments.
OVERALL , I would state the worst thing in PVP is the unavoidable damage and not respecting defensive stats. Fix this and things are not just boom , boom your dead over and over.
Why people think this mods pvp is any good is beyond me, PVP was at its best Post tenacity to end of Mod 3, they really boinked it after that.. with mods 4 and 5 doing some out of control things.
IBS shouldnt be possible to deflect. It is indomitable after all, if you get hit you get all of it, then the only thing that mitigates is your DR. Seriously that is the ultimate enounter we get after leveling up and its meh at best in its current form. As it stands now I only use IBS if Im put vs low GS pugs who dont know better and get hit and die in one IBS crit.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I dont want any of this to come across the wrong way, so first, I thank you for participating in this discussion and I hope you continue to do so. But you need to understand a few things because you dont play the GWF class. Looking in, you might see two things that you think are an "unfair" advantage.
1) Unstoppable Breaks CC
2) "IBS/Intimidation" hits are too high
But what you dont know about those things, from just not playing the class, is GWFs have no way of avoiding CC. Sprint is used as a gap closer and because we have very limited sprint, we dont have the ability MOST of the time to use it defensively. If we use it defensively we lost our ability to get TO our target and cant do any damage, therefore you have to choose weather you want to live another 3-4 seconds or you want a chance to kill your target. Thats what Sprint is...
So right off the bat we can:
A) Get to you - but then are sitting ducks
If we do option A, you live longer but its about a 95% chance guaranteed youll lose the matchup and die. If you do Option B, you have about a 50-50 chance to win, IF you are not kited while in unstoppable, IF you can get off BOTH intimidation hits and ATLEAST have 1 crit. Otherwise any decent geared PVP player can easily live through even two intimidation non crits. Even if one crits there is also a high chance the second one gets dodged/deflected.
But what about unstoppable breaking CC!!!???
You have to lose 35-45% of your HP to even gain enough determination to pop unstoppable. You gain nearly zero determination while IN sprint, so its literally a function of HP % lost. Where as other classes can dodge/stealth/block/shield on tab right off the bat without any HP loss. This creates a very one sided match, where destroyers get very very small window to build destroyer stacks, and even Sentinels get a small window during unstoppable IF you didnt waste sprint outside of it defensively, to get TO you to deal damage. Otherwise you just wont hit your target.
SO when you say:
"but if you control them and start doing damage, they can pop unstoppable and escape, making it an asymmetric relationship" Your leaving out the part that they have NO dodge type mechanic, if we use sprint to avoid CC outside unstoppable, we lose ALL our offensive potential, and we have to lose about 1/4-1/2 our HP to get a 4ish second window TO attack. Still seem "asymmetric"? Well it does to me, but against the GWF. Not to mention the ONLY form of CC we have are stuns which literally last about .5 seconds on most PVP players.
When looking at damage. Its not the abilities themselves that deal too much damage. This is EXACTLY what got GWFs here in the first place. People not knowing the class, coming to the forums saying "We got 12k crit on a takedown! WTF nerf takedown!!!!"
When takedown was never the problem. Your looking at Intimidation and IBS and saying "IBS shouldn't do as much damage". This is putting the cart infront of the horse. Its not IBS that does alot of damage at all. Ill walk you through WHY here:
I have 25 STR and 11,000 Power and 4 Orange artifact equip (including MH) so these are pretty much BIS numbers.
I normally play Sentinel but want to show you destroyer so I respecced on the PTR just to test this out. FYI- all of these numbers are non crits therefore in pvp their damage would be about 30-40% less what you see here.
Sure Strike (base): 1150-1200 on a target dummy.
IBS (base): 8,500 on a target dummy.
Again both of these are dummies so the PVP damage would be around 700 for an at will sure strike and 5,100 ish for an IBS. This is BIS geared with 11k Power! Does that seem OP at all? No!
Well when I MERELY add Mark (which also gives CA and Powerful challenge buff)
Sure Strike: 1900-2100
IBS: 12,000
Again drop that for tenacity and: ~1300 Sure Strike in PVP and ~7,500 IBS. Still seem OP? Not really.....
Well NOW we add the Destroyer Capstone stacks (a 50% damage boost):
Sure Strike: 2,700
IBS: 20k NON-crit.
Wow.... a BIG difference..... But still, netting out tenacity: 1700 Sure Strike and 12,000-14,000 IBS.
Ok now that seems like a "fair" range. Crits would be worth roughly double (with a perfect vorpal)
Well where do I see these massive 40k+ IBS crits then?
Well NOW you add in the Destroyer FEAT: The problem HERE though is it stacks 3 times off ONLY normal hits (meaning no DoTs) and its HARD to get more than 1-2 stacks at most AND stacks fall off after ~3 seconds of not attacking. Meaning the damage bonus youll get from this has a MASSIVE range and is VERY unreliable. Also you LOSE either 10% crit to use this or Bravery which is your speed boost + deflect. SO even that is a MASSIVE tradeoff.
But lets add all 3 stacks of Destroyer FEAT:
Sure Strike: 4,100!
IBS: ~30,000 NON crits! On a Dummy this would be a 60k CRIT
Netting out tenacity NOW you have ~2500 at will NON crits and ~20k NON crits IN PVP! add in ANY other debuffs from other classes liek DC or GPF and that can be 25k+ Non Crits EASILY.
So now we have a damage range of:
Sure Strike (in pvp): 700-2,500
IBS: 5,100 - 20,000 NON crits.
Wow... What a damage range!!!!
So what we NEED to see happen is that LOWER number actually needs to be BUFFED! The higher number needs to be LOWERED. Well the ONLY way that will happen is if you actually find a way to BUFF the base ability, but LOWER the damage multipliers.
Well thats an entirely different story than someone saying "IBS shouldnt hit so hard" isnt it? Thats not quite accurate. It SHOULD be "GWFS shouldnt have to rely so much on damage boosts do deal adequate damage"
Because lets see what has to happen to get that 20k IBS:
1) The Destroyer (which is WORSE than a glass canon atm) has to lose about 35% of his HP realistically to pop unstoppable. THEN he has to hit someone 10 times to get 10 destroyer stacks. THEN he has to ALSO get 3 stacks of his Destroyer FEAT that fade after NOT hitting for 3 seconds, THEN use his IBS (which has a massive windup animation). Possible? MAYBE if you have a CW CC the target or a TR daze them...
Probable? Not really....
Oh I also didnt add the (up to) 30% damage boost based on missing HP of the target. This frankly doesnt matter a ton because even if the target is at half HP, where you get about 15% of the damage boost, they probably would have died without that damage boost anyways. But that also could take that 20k IBS up another notch to like 23k-24k NON crits. Meaning nearly 50k Crit in PVP with a perfect vorpal.
So whats the solution here? Ill post in a second post below.
Mark: ONLY gives the GWF and his allies combat advantage damage bonus. It offers NO flat "damage bonus" therefore the advantage of mark means its easy to get that CA damage bonus - but this can also be attained by attacking an opponent from behind OR if you have a GF the "advantage" is nullified.
What this does is makes both swordmaster and IV a little more on par with eachother, IV has an easier time getting CA bonus if they mark with TR. Swordmaster can still get this, with a little extra effort or partnering with a GF.
Seems MORE fair atleast right?
Well THEN we take Powerful Challenge and remove that (possibly for a feat that gives you determination gain while sprinting). What about that 15% damage boost? Well that can be mostly gained back from Strength (making 2% dmg for each point - up from 1%)
This would be about 10-15% increase to BASE damage for GWFs without having to Mark. Mark only adds CA bonus meaning it can still be obtained (that dmg bonus) without marking.
So what about the 20% damage boost we are losing still? Well THIS is where I propose the following:
1) At will damage DOUBLED across the board.
2) REMOVE any damage penalty on at wills during Unstoppable - meaning Unstoppable becomes a net DPS GAIN when using at wills.
While we would lose that 20% damage on encounters (like IBS/Intimidation/etc) I think that doubling at will damage as well as making them hit harder while in unstoppable would (or could) make up that 20% damage difference.
So NOW you would have something like:
Sure Stike (Base): (1200*2=2400 *1.15(STR addition))= 2,760 on a dummy. And easily over 3k if you add combat advantage damage.
IBS: (8,500*1.15 (STR)) = 9,775 damage on a dummy. Easily over 11k with CA bonus.
Those seem better atleast. We closed the gap on at wills versus encounters. Spread out the damage more, slightly less burst damage but more sustained damage for GWFs.
Well if we start adding ALL those multipliers in Destroyer this might be a problem now... I think losing that 20% damage from mark, would bring Intimidation levels down quite a bit, so I dont think you would even need to change that (since NOW youd also fix the 'double mark' that is happening with DS and TR) - Just trust me Intimidation would lose alot of burst damage.
I really liked the earlier idea of making Intimidation a % of weapon damage. So IF these nerfs happened, I think the 350% of weapon damage would actually be perfect, allowing GWFs to stack other stats besides pure power, to get this.
So for Destroyers what I would like to see happen to the Destroyer FEAT itself (not capstone):
Reduce the damage per stack but extend the duration stacks last to stay maintained while in combat. (Overall I think a net of ~7% damage per stack (I think its like 9.5% right now) would be adequate and give Destroyers much more PUNCH outside unstoppable.
If you get 2 stacks of destroyer feat up, they remain in force until you leave combat. Meaning this damage boost is more reliable but less effective overall.
Then I would suggest NERFING the capstone's 20% extra encounter damage while in unstoppable. Bringing the entire capstone back down to 40% total damage boost as well.
This means youd get 4% damage per stacks instead of 5% damage per stack (stacks 10 times).
I think this could bring destroyers into a nice spot for damage. Keep in mind at wills were doubled in damage, STR gives another 10-15% more damage and you no longer lose damage using at wills IN unstoppable AND youll have a much more reliable-stackable destroyer feat.
Will you lose OVERALL DPS on an extended boss fight? Potentially. But youll have much higher AoE damage as well as more sustainable damage. ALSO dont forget Sprint giving determination which means faster stacks, faster at will hits at no reduced damage.
I think THESE changes would adjust the damage problems. But NOW what about the fact that the SENTINEL is a freaking glass canon and he Destroyer is squishier than a CW?!
Well I think that needs to be made up with The Sprint granting determination.
What THAT allows you to do is use sprint in either offensive or defensive because NOW you have faster access to unstoppable to use either offensively or defensively. If you sprint and use all your meter, it should grant something like 25% of determination bar. Meaning NOW you have access to unstoppable by losing about 12%-15% of your HP rather than 25%-30%. Thats a MASSIVE difference.
This makes Destroyers have faster access, giving them faster stacks, making them less squishy. Makes Sentinels have the same thing. Faster access.
I DONT think this would make the class OP at all.
Now if anything, the damage still might need a little buff, but I dont want to go too crazy on the damage buffs. We just added tankiness and evened out damage to be less on the lower end but also less on the top end.
What I would THEN adjust would be CC effects. THings like Frontline/Takedown given BACK a prone (though a short one) and things like Roar possibly doing a 2 sec Daze (PVE) and 1 second on players (PVP).
I think adding back in a small level of CC would be very helpful to the class. Now you might actually see destroyers in pvp again, Sentinels would lose the crazy burst and feel much more tanky, which I think would be fine.
Making Intimidation weapon damage based, would also free up the Sentinel GWF to use other encounters since more of their damage comes from at wills and less from the (one trick pony build) meaning they could potentially grab more CC or choose IBS for more damage.
This opens up MANY possible builds/specs without making the class TOO tanky or spit out TOO much damage.
Destroyers could probably still get 25-30k crits in PVP. But probably more on the <20k range.
sentinels would be doing maybe 15k Intimidation crits, but probably would only slot ONE intimidation move, in favor of IBS/Restoring/CC abilities. ETC.
I havnt gone over Instagtor builds yet which DO need love, I wanna fix the class FIRST tho.
1 - to much damage come to a atwill will destroy more and more the pve AND if you try bargain more and more for that pvp "agenda" (i like the concept, but now is a game suicide), in the end, gwf will be worse than now.
2 - destroyer is not a controller tree to have a fast daze for roar. in fact, gwf is not a controller class to have daze. again, slow, for a melee off tank represent close gap. daze = dont take damage.
3 - a slow burst encounter like ibs can be dodge; each sure strikes hit, no.
a player x can not complain to die for the most slow burst encounter for a glass cannon that need stacks to do a good damage when, in this same time, have other class, invisible, give more damage. ibs is not a emergency of game. the only bad thing (and sad) is a melee aoe dps only have a single burst aoe encounter, with too HAMSTER range/cap since the begining of the game.
again, this atwill change, in the past, should be a really good addition "pre-stacks age". after the "stacks age", is too much. and if take away the stacks, gwf... i dont will say die, because is dead now. in fact i dont have a expression to define how bad will be if so HAMSTER damage start to lose your stacks to be changed for a extra 50% in atwills and 70% less in the single burst damage of the tree.
first, lets put gwf in a good spot without major damage reworks (rework=new concept). is a matter of being conservative. reworks destroyed the game. gwf dont need to be part of the problem. maybe is a good idea, BUT is unpredictable.
WTB Class Reroll please
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