Bug:
Tenacious Concealment + Offhand Bonus (-100% stealth loss on damage) doesn't prevent bilethorn ticks from draining stealth.
You can recreate that scenario by the following:
- Equip TC and the Offhand Bonus to make sure you've -100% stealth loss
- Get hit by a TR's flurry and make sure the TR is using bile
- After the third hit ends go stealth
- The bilethorn dot ticks will drain your stealth in 1 second
Also the Tenacious Concealmnent tooltip says only 30% at level 3.
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited November 2014
feedback
I think some of the EXE feets should trigger off of Combat Advantage rather than CA. You can give them internal cooldowns to control rate, but It would make them more viable i think.
over all i think the whole UBER SUPPER BURSt at the start Dps is impractical as an over all design. You blow your stuff and your done. It doesnt lead well for group play and in PVP id assume if you fail to kil the target you'll die soon after. CA is something that works well in group support and we have class features to create solo and is more applicable than stealth.
Ultimately though the survival issue needs to be addressed.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited November 2014
Feedback: Concerns about TR changes
I did some testing, and fell asleep.
As I slept I dreamed of a group of TR all scoundrel with 10 points in saboteur for gloaming cut ability.
These TR took turns gloaming me from stealth and there was nothing I could do.
I was perma dazed!
So I woke up and thought I would try out what happened in my dream.
Perma daze is 100% possible with the above listed setup.
Just telling you now before you get a flood of people crying to nerf TR daze power in mod 5.
Then again I guess it will be the same as 2 CW freezing you to death but in daze at least you can still move around.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Is gloaming still nerfed to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>?
If so I only see one viable path as a TR and that may be out also if smoke bomb turns out to be crappy.
I think some of the EXE feets should trigger off of Combat Advantage rather than CA. You can give them internal cooldowns to control rate, but It would make them more viable i think.
over all i think the whole UBER SUPPER BURSt at the start Dps is impractical as an over all design. You blow your stuff and your done. It doesnt lead well for group play and in PVP id assume if you fail to kil the target you'll die soon after. CA is something that works well in group support and we have class features to create solo and is more applicable than stealth.
Ultimately though the survival issue needs to be addressed.
Executioner Rogues suffer from Premature Expiration...
Seriously, I see no viable advantage to the executioner path. In PvE, given a situation of a stationary target that is being tanked with the TR in no jeopardy, the Executioner should deliver superior damage compared to the saboteur and scoundrel but in all other cases will
be much less capable and extremely vulnerable.
Even in the perfect damage setup I fear the executioner will still pale in damage compared to a comparable geared and skilled HR/GWF/CW/SW. I don't have reliable data to back up these concerns and my speculation is based on comparisons of damage from preview and live and an attempt to extrapolate a result based on an even more exposed TR.
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callofkutuluMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 56Arc User
edited November 2014
Yesterday I had the "enjoyable" experience of playing a domination match against a team with a 22k GS GWF.... the survivability of TR and the damage output when compared is laughable. It's easy to have hope when this class is so far in the toilet that the little things seem big, but put in perspective with the other classes, we are still just turds in the bowl.
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
Executioner Rogues suffer from Premature Expiration...
Seriously, I see no viable advantage to the executioner path. In PvE, given a situation of a stationary target that is being tanked with the TR in no jeopardy, the Executioner should deliver superior damage compared to the saboteur and scoundrel but in all other cases will
be much less capable and extremely vulnerable.
Even in the perfect damage setup I fear the executioner will still pale in damage compared to a comparable geared and skilled HR/GWF/CW/SW. I don't have reliable data to back up these concerns and my speculation is based on comparisons of damage from preview and live and an attempt to extrapolate a result based on an even more exposed TR.
Wwll executiiners damage is pretty solid. When i did the assenbly my scoundrel build took forever to kilk the lvl 62 npc. The difference on executiiner was noticable. With the two cooldown powes in sab every tr can cycle our encounters oretty efectuvely. Using mi invisibke infiktrator adds a second restealty optin.
I just dont tgink burst damage is a giood play model. Ultimately its the survival factor that will determine playability. Ie if im running teurn i have no doubt exe can killl stuff but it may just die from the npc trash critting for 30k.
Unfortunately, Gloaming cut is the heart of a stealth build and if its nerfed to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> then stealth build is out.
Stealth builds require so much already like armor set, high recovery, points in intel and 10+ feat points, i really dont understand the GC nerf.
You have a tree that is only viable if your in stealth and then nerf the only ability you can still use in stealth to dust. I dont understand where the devs are coming from sometimes.
TRs should be the unquestioned masters of single target dps, really this is all we have.
Unfortunately, Gloaming cut is the heart of a stealth build and if its nerfed to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> then stealth build is out.
Stealth builds require so much already like armor set, high recovery, points in intel and 10+ feat points, i really dont understand the GC nerf.
You have a tree that is only viable if your in stealth and then nerf the only ability you can still use in stealth to dust. I dont understand where the devs are coming from sometimes.
TRs should be the unquestioned masters of single target dps, really this is all we have.
Really revert gloaming cut nerf ... it hits for peanuts
Using this encounter does that initiate the capstone for executioner. Also doesn't use weapon enchantment...
Feedback: Executioner path
Like everyone else is saying, the capstone needs to activate on any hit not just encounter and needs to be applied to more than one target.
The primary ability score for the Trickster Rogue is Dexterity yet is among the worst ability scores to choose. Let us look at the three paths and see why this is.
For the Saboteur they will be able to maintain stealth and thus have 100% critical for the majority (if not all) of their attacks. Rogues chose dexterity mainly for criticals to increase damage and additionally for the slight increase in deflection, but now this will provide no damage increase and charisma will as well as an even greater deflection increase. Strength is also another choice for even more damage than provided by with charisma but no deflection increase. Others may choose con or int. No saboteur should ever consider dexterity.
For the Executioner they will hardly ever be in stealth and thus dexterity seems like it could be justified, but their main (only) purpose is to deliver damage and strength will provide a greater and more consistent increase in damage than dexterity would. The executioner suffers heavily in survivability and thus one might think you could argue for a slightly lower damage increase and slightly higher survivability increase to focus on the deflection from dexterity -- but charisma provides more deflection and the combat advantage damage bonus from it will result in more damage (except maybe solo without a tanking companion and without using bait and switch). Again we have strength and charisma easily proving superior to dexterity.
The Scoundrel is similar in ways to the Executioner, but with the ability to utilize the combat advantage from dazes more it becomes charisma being the more obvious choice.
I don't really know what to recommend. If you move damage to dexterity and change the feat "Disciple of Strength" to "Disciple of Dexterity" you could resolve the issue with regards to damage. Others have suggested a movement speed increase and while that is nice it isn't enough alone to justify choosing dexterity over other stats. Something like an increase in critical severity in addition to movement speed and the existing current bonuses would probably satisfy most on adding enough value to dexterity to make it worth considering (and that may seem to be asking for a lot but that is how low dexterity currently ranks to the other ability scores).
Can any others think of any reason to give consideration to dexterity over strength or charisma (or even other ability scores) in the current form on preview?
Bug: Lurker's Assault
When used on many targets, activating Lurker's Assault can lead to the quick death of the Trickster Rogue or cause the trickster rogue to miss the following few attacks. This is because the teleport feature added places the rogue within the target instead of just near to it. I will give a few examples.
When one uses lurker's with a dragon as the target, if the dragon happens to be using it's breath weapon at the time you activate lurkers you will be pulled into the breath weapon and usually die. Even if used from behind a dragon you will travel through it's backside and come out the mouth. Considering the other bug with lurkers (if you die while using lurkers you will lose stealth and be unable to regenerate stealth again until you zone or do a full count death -- i.e. no revive and let the timer expire) it makes the daily not just weak but also dangerous to use.
When used against other targets if you hold down an at will after using lurkers and getting ported you might hit with your next attack but the following will all be misses as you are moved to the outside of the target facing the opposite way of it. On targets like Garakas in Shores skirmish this can also quickly lead to the death of the TR if it is being tanked facing away from the TR.
I recommend that the teleport from Lurker's be completely removed as it offers no advantage and basically forces the rogue to look down (or around) until there is no target visible and then use the daily and then hunt the target again and engage.
Bug: Duelist's Flurry
When Duelist's Flurry is used against a dragon that is currently using its breath weapon and the Trickster Rogue is attacking from the side (as well as many other angles and locations), the flurry portion will pull the rogue into the breath attack and generally cause the death of the rogue. This could be because the breath attacks red area appears underneath the dragons coming from their back legs and extending out and not simply coming from their mouths as would be expected.
The primary ability score for the Trickster Rogue is Dexterity yet is among the worst ability scores to choose. Let us look at the three paths and see why this is.
For the Saboteur they will be able to maintain stealth and thus have 100% critical for the majority (if not all) of their attacks. Rogues chose dexterity mainly for criticals to increase damage and additionally for the slight increase in deflection, but now this will provide no damage increase and charisma will as well as an even greater deflection increase. Strength is also another choice for even more damage than provided by with charisma but no deflection increase. Others may choose con or int. No saboteur should ever consider dexterity.
For the Executioner they will hardly ever be in stealth and thus dexterity seems like it could be justified, but their main (only) purpose is to deliver damage and strength will provide a greater and more consistent increase in damage than dexterity would. The executioner suffers heavily in survivability and thus one might think you could argue for a slightly lower damage increase and slightly higher survivability increase to focus on the deflection from dexterity -- but charisma provides more deflection and the combat advantage damage bonus from it will result in more damage (except maybe solo without a tanking companion and without using bait and switch). Again we have strength and charisma easily proving superior to dexterity.
The Scoundrel is similar in ways to the Executioner, but with the ability to utilize the combat advantage from dazes more it becomes charisma being the more obvious choice.
I don't really know what to recommend. If you move damage to dexterity and change the feat "Disciple of Strength" to "Disciple of Dexterity" you could resolve the issue with regards to damage. Others have suggested a movement speed increase and while that is nice it isn't enough alone to justify choosing dexterity over other stats. Something like an increase in critical severity in addition to movement speed and the existing current bonuses would probably satisfy most on adding enough value to dexterity to make it worth considering (and that may seem to be asking for a lot but that is how low dexterity currently ranks to the other ability scores).
Can any others think of any reason to give consideration to dexterity over strength or charisma (or even other ability scores) in the current form on preview?
Bug: Lurker's Assault
When used on many targets, activating Lurker's Assault can lead to the quick death of the Trickster Rogue or cause the trickster rogue to miss the following few attacks. This is because the teleport feature added places the rogue within the target instead of just near to it. I will give a few examples.
When one uses lurker's with a dragon as the target, if the dragon happens to be using it's breath weapon at the time you activate lurkers you will be pulled into the breath weapon and usually die. Even if used from behind a dragon you will travel through it's backside and come out the mouth. Considering the other bug with lurkers (if you die while using lurkers you will lose stealth and be unable to regenerate stealth again until you zone or do a full count death -- i.e. no revive and let the timer expire) it makes the daily not just weak but also dangerous to use.
When used against other targets if you hold down an at will after using lurkers and getting ported you might hit with your next attack but the following will all be misses as you are moved to the outside of the target facing the opposite way of it. On targets like Garakas in Shores skirmish this can also quickly lead to the death of the TR if it is being tanked facing away from the TR.
I recommend that the teleport from Lurker's be completely removed as it offers no advantage and basically forces the rogue to look down (or around) until there is no target visible and then use the daily and then hunt the target again and engage.
Bug: Duelist's Flurry
When Duelist's Flurry is used against a dragon that is currently using its breath weapon and the Trickster Rogue is attacking from the side (as well as many other angles and locations), the flurry portion will pull the rogue into the breath attack and generally cause the death of the rogue. This could be because the breath attacks red area appears underneath the dragons coming from their back legs and extending out and not simply coming from their mouths as would be expected.
Yes lurker assault is horrible. It's like guaranteed problems on using daily which should actually help you not bring death on you. Same situation is on pvp where every class has better damage and more stuns than TR.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Yesterday I had the "enjoyable" experience of playing a domination match against a team with a 22k GS GWF.... the survivability of TR and the damage output when compared is laughable. It's easy to have hope when this class is so far in the toilet that the little things seem big, but put in perspective with the other classes, we are still just turds in the bowl.
I agree even with the current changes for TR I doubt it will have equal footing with other class, too many flaws and conditions for little benefit for example the saboteur tree looks nice but if you will test it its just a joke. Other people even talks about "balance" when other class are simply OP compared to rogues.
This is supposed to be our feat tree that provides high damage at the cost of losing Saboteur's stealth and Scoundrel's deflect/dazes. It's not worth it. Executioner gives you a high boost to damage when it comes to 1 or 2 hits, but overall it feels lackluster. Let's compare Executioner with other trees that provide damage: Destroyer, Archery, Fury and Thaumaturge.
The main difference I feel regarding this issue is that all of them proc either damage that is constantly applied (thaum & fury) or self buffs that last enough to take advantage of them (archery & destro). Executioner lacks this reliability because it depends too much on stealth. Arterial cut, vicious pursuit, exposed weakness, shadowborn, shadow of demise and to a lesser extent twisted grin and last moments, they all either proc with stealth or rely on stealth to be fully useful. To have a regular access to stealth you need encounters or pasives and that means by itself a loss on damage potential. Executioner needs a reliable way of accessing stealth or a change in the way those feats proc. Fury, destroyer and archery rely on the "tab" mechanic of each class, but all of these classes can use it in a fluid way.
With CoS and Disheartening viable as mid range build in this patch, could you dev kindly buff Whisperknife 'dagger threat' to give extra 10ft per rank? (up to 40ft at rank 3, which the same as impact shot max range).
The main reason is because in my opinion, both skill (plus impact shot as ranged empower) are quite ineffective at 20ft. There many skill that could deal more damage at this range plus it's a melee skill. Also the recent change of Flourish, DF, and dazzling strike will definitely outshine the 'semi ranged skill with feat' in term of spike damage.
I think dagger threat should be an option for people who want to deal stable damage from 'quite' safe range. So...giving it more range would be awesome addition.
Suggestion: First Strike
This is too situation for a class ability. I suggest you change it to "First encounter in combat does xx more damage, after 10 seconds your next encounter does xx/2 more damage"
Give a bit more sustainable damage plus we can time it much better by having it proc only off encounters.
Suggestion: Stealth depletion for at-wills.
I think this is good however for duelist flurry the third strike should be counted as 1 depletion aka 15%. It will still take us out of stealth but at least we can land a flurry while in stealth
Suggestion: Duelist Flurry
Please consider bringing back the faster ticks of DF or allowing it to stack to 20. This would really boost our single target damage and make it much easer to get into dung groups.
Suggestion: Executioner path
This path could use some tweaking. I think a lot it is due to class abilities. We have to take tenacious concealment so that our stealth isn't drained immediately and most take sneak attack so we have mobility. IMO with the changes to stealth, the bare minimum compensation should be that it isn't drained by attacks. Makes this a exe path only feature if you are worried about perma but we have to waste a power slotting that. We would all prefer to take some of the others that add damage etc. Also a feat that increase movement outside of stealth would be appreciated for this path. There is a lot of opportunity to improve but the idea is that we shouldn't have to slot all defensive powers and class abilities in order to have survivability.
Along these lines, having a self heal similar to wilds medicine would add a lot of viability to the executioner path. Maybe have it do half the healing of wilds medicine, just something to help improve our survivability.
Bugs: Shocking execution.
As many many TRs have mentioned. This power is broke. I don't know what you did to it but it hits for nothing right now. Please take a look. This is our big level 50 daily and also a paragon... that no TR is gonna use. Either buff its damage or add a rebuff effect to it or hell anything is better than where it currently is.
I do like that you gave us options other than the boring perma build. I think a lot of TR are just looking for our identity which has always been marketed as the single target DPS kings or "boss killers" that is where we would like to be.
PS: a pvp amor set that reduced our cool downs (similar to HR set) would go a long way.
Suggestion: First Strike
This is too situation for a class ability. I suggest you change it to "First encounter in combat does xx more damage, after 10 seconds your next encounter does xx/2 more damage"
I think this feature are meant for lashing blade, where your first impression does matter. In my opinion, adding 'the feature has a cooldown that based on how long you enter stealth mode' would be good reason to pick it because once in combat, this feature are pretty much useless.
Suggestion: Duelist Flurry
Please consider bringing back the faster ticks of DF or allowing it to stack to 20. This would really boost our single target damage and make it much easer to get into dung groups.
Try using stealth at the 3rd strike and be amazed about how much damage it dealt.
I've been doing alot of epics with my guild lately and one thing that really annoys the hell out of me is when the bosses or minions do their melee range aoe. Any melee class has to dodge this or die which results in poorer performance from our classes.
Solution as suggested:
A few people have stated they would like to see some immunity frames added to some encounters (dazing,blitz, BnS) as well as a deflect buff that stacks with at will usage.
edit: BnS and Blitz already make you slide backwards, these could work exactly like a dodge except it doesnt consume our stam.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited November 2014
Immunity frames while in roll of bait and switch is a must!
Otherwise it is.. bait and die in the process of rolling away from the shadow bait dummy.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Had an idea today to replace or adjust one the TR failing class features. (probably tactics as this isnt working properly and this suggestion can build AP quickly)
Suggestion:
Class Feature: Thrive Under Pressure
At-Will attacks now attack in a cone in front of you. Will attack for full damage when only one target nearby.
Rank 1: Damage Reduced on all targets hit by 35%
Had an idea today to replace or adjust one the TR failing class features. (probably tactics as this isnt working properly and this suggestion can build AP quickly)
Suggestion:
Class Feature: Thrive Under Pressure
At-Will attacks now attack in a cone in front of you. Will attack for full damage when only one target nearby.
Rank 1: Damage Reduced on all targets hit by 35%
Rank 2: Damage reduced on all targets hit by 30%
Rank 3: Damage reduced on all targets hit by 25%
Something like that...
Could help alleviate the aoe issues.
dazing strike, smoke bomb, path of the blade, blitz
we are not lacking aoe tools.
we need survivability ! something rogue like that pushes our tankiness near the other melee class. Without ITC we are basically toast.
without shadow strike we are toast. With both shadow strike and itc, we are toast...just a little bit burnt. Math says 3-2=1 encounter slot left.
It's not like we have higher deflect of a gwf, or higher damage, or higher burst or higher movement speed hence the reasoning "but you are light armoured while they wear an heavy one" does not work anymore.
I would say: gwf is more roguish than us in all aspects but stealth.
and we need executioner to work, shadow demise proccing from every source of damage would fix the thing. (duelist, ticks ---- stealth --- proc from ticks )
we need to fix cooldowns allowing us to stack the right ability score (NOT INT) And power/crit not recovery !
we need a total rework or a fix of first strike ( it needs to proc every tot sec on encounters, not on all damages only if i leave combat )
and at that point i think we can consider TR a working class
Just confirmed Fox's Cunning also instantly drops all Duelist's Flurry bleed DoTs.
Judging by how it also drops DoTs from Disheartening Strike, my guess CW DoTs will also be dropped.
Any conventional DoT powers are now useless against HRs, including both DoTs the TRs have.
[Assessment]
I've come to realize the BANE of TRs, is DoTs. We have ZERO defense against those. None of our defensive methods work. It's probably the reason we were so hard-pressed against HRs after the Pathfinder release.
In NW, currently the defense against DoTs is:
(1) direct neutralization, such as DC cleanse powers, or the bugged Fox's Cunning
(2) direct, repeatable heals, such as DCs
(3) out-lasting through humongous amounts of Life Steal through despiccable number of attacks - HRs
(4) a huge HP pool + very high resistances - GFs.. but even GFs can't stand upto the DoTs now
(5) never get hit by DoTs in the first place -- theoretically possible, practically impossible in actual combat
※ Temporary relief through heal pots were possible, but now that many DoTs last so long, and the damage easily exceeding the 10k mark, it is now impractical
Among the above 5 methods, the TR has NONE. Our defense type is "low resistances", "high deflect", "high mobility through dodge"... but DoTs don't miss. Most DoTs are also ranged in their attack type. They can be deflected, but most DoT type powers are also quite short in recharge time and can easily be re-attempted and applied. Even worse, now most DoTs run through the course of much longer than 10 seconds. Some powers like Careful Bullshi* from the Pathfinder HRs, last 20.
This is often cause of trouble for not only the TR, but even those that have adequate defenses, like DCs -- they just melt with the amount of DoTs the HRs deal, for example.
[Conclusion/Suggestion]
While it pains me to say so, especially being a WK, reliant of a very powerful DoT myself, almost all of the DoTs in game should be revised. If they aren't going to touch the damage, at least, the duration needs to be reviewed. If every time you're hit with Disheartening, or the Fire of the Bullcrap, or Careful Bullcrap.. and you've got no choice but to dwindle down to near death due to the impending doom, it just makes the game play that much more passive.
Also, TRs need some type of defense against DoTs. Perhaps the option of giving the TR's CC breakers -- ITC and VP, an ability to drop DoTs upon activation, could be looked into. DoTs should be a contributor to the combat, not a determinator.
Do we need ginormous damage DoTs in game? OK fine, then at least make it have to be waited for recharge and reapplied every time. That goes the same for us WKs.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Question:
Are TRs the only striker class that doesn't get Armor penetration with stats? If that's so it should probably be fixed, our only function is DPS and we have to get all of it by equip and enchants, that we could use for other more useful things if we had AP with stats.
With the new Executioner tree, Tr had +25% AP in stealth, but, out of stealth ? And others Trees ? With of hand artifact bonus set, and new rings/neck/waist from new profession, it's more easy to run 20-24% ignored resistance, but for other stuff combinations ? And for pvp ?
We are Rogues, we need AP from primary stat ( dex ? ) because we are an agile an dexterous class who can analyse weaknesses of ennemy armor, and use those weaknesses for more damages. It's combat advantage, it's crit, and it's armor penetration class ability.
Sorry for my poor english.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Question:
Are TRs the only striker class that doesn't get Armor penetration with stats? If that's so it should probably be fixed, our only function is DPS and we have to get all of it by equip and enchants, that we could use for other more useful things if we had AP with stats.
That or at least DOUBLE the deflection a TR's stats give, PLUS add in movement speed to Dex or Str.
That or at least DOUBLE the deflection a TR's stats give, PLUS add in movement speed to Dex or Str.
Just bring up the deflect ratio for DEX to same levels as CHA, 1% per point. Seriously, how a bright personality and charming stature helps you evade/parry incoming attacks more than dextrous movement and agility, is beyond me.
With the same 1pt = 1% ratio, on average TRs are going to receive 4~5% higher deflection than they currently have. And then, increase the Scoundrel T1 feat from 0.5/1.0/1.5/2.0/2.5 to 1/2/3/4/5%, and that's another 5% extra. With these two changes, on average 10% or so increase.
Without using silveries at defense slots, and using other items that have deflect, plus Boons, a TR usually achieves around 38~42%, depending on whether you're WK or MI.
Add 10% to that, and high-deflect builds will be boosted to 48~52%. A really crazy build that sacrifices a lot of HP (thus, probably staying at around 35~37k HP range), would be able to add another 3~4% on top of that, for a total of 52~56% deflect on average.
This should be sufficient, IMO.
As for movement speed, also 1pt = 1% rule would do fine -- but in this case, the speed buffs with both Skillful Infiltrator and Sneak Attack should be removed and changed to something else. On average, Dark Enchants plus boons boost your movement to 10~12% bonus. Adding in a 30% in stealth, plus another 10% or so from stats, is just too OP.
IMO, remove/change the speed boost from stealth in Sneak Attack, and lower the Skillful Infiltrator to 3/6/9%, from the previous 5/10/15. This way, on average WKs would do around 20% increase base, and MIs would move around at 35% or so. So both the WK/MI are much faster than before when out of stealth, but slightly slower than before when in stealth.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Being a Scoundrel, on deployment, BnS applies concussive strike feat to targets nearby and dazes them. Yes, its an AoE daze (!!) for that matter. It only works out of stealth.
When in stealth it doesn't daze. Also, when somebody from afar approaches the dummy, it does not daze. Only during deployment, it dazes through Concussive Strikes.
An obvious bug, but it actually was so funny to wathc, and then got me thinking.
Why not makes this a feature for ALL TR paths??
Upon deployment when out of stealth, the BnS will deal an
INTERRUPT to all targets within "TRICKED" range for a very brief 1.5 seconds, while the dummy is deployed and the TR rolls to escape.
The distance of the "roll-backwards" moveent will be increased upto par with the new dodge
Now.. this actually makes BnS a very nice emergency "panic button" for the TR, increasing its survivability, especially when surrounded by multiple enemies at close quarters. When you need to escape, deploy the dummy and every enemy around you will "flinch" for a very brief while -- but its still enough to stop them in mid-attack, as you roll away and buy some time to either try and run, or restealth.
Very funny bug, but strangely promising. An accidental thing, but its actually quite a viable boost to the TR's survivability, while not threatening or harming the enemy directly. I actually like this harmless, utilitarian bug!
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
Question:
Are TRs the only striker class that doesn't get Armor penetration with stats? If that's so it should probably be fixed, our only function is DPS and we have to get all of it by equip and enchants, that we could use for other more useful things if we had AP with stats.
To me tge bigger issue fir this is it means Tr gear is about 1500 pts behind other classes hat get te feature.i actualy tgink any class having it is bad gae design as it devalues armkr pen. But we should be on tge same playing field as othef classes.
Comments
Tenacious Concealment + Offhand Bonus (-100% stealth loss on damage) doesn't prevent bilethorn ticks from draining stealth.
You can recreate that scenario by the following:
- Equip TC and the Offhand Bonus to make sure you've -100% stealth loss
- Get hit by a TR's flurry and make sure the TR is using bile
- After the third hit ends go stealth
- The bilethorn dot ticks will drain your stealth in 1 second
Also the Tenacious Concealmnent tooltip says only 30% at level 3.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
I think some of the EXE feets should trigger off of Combat Advantage rather than CA. You can give them internal cooldowns to control rate, but It would make them more viable i think.
over all i think the whole UBER SUPPER BURSt at the start Dps is impractical as an over all design. You blow your stuff and your done. It doesnt lead well for group play and in PVP id assume if you fail to kil the target you'll die soon after. CA is something that works well in group support and we have class features to create solo and is more applicable than stealth.
Ultimately though the survival issue needs to be addressed.
I did some testing, and fell asleep.
As I slept I dreamed of a group of TR all scoundrel with 10 points in saboteur for gloaming cut ability.
These TR took turns gloaming me from stealth and there was nothing I could do.
I was perma dazed!
So I woke up and thought I would try out what happened in my dream.
Perma daze is 100% possible with the above listed setup.
Just telling you now before you get a flood of people crying to nerf TR daze power in mod 5.
Then again I guess it will be the same as 2 CW freezing you to death but in daze at least you can still move around.
If so I only see one viable path as a TR and that may be out also if smoke bomb turns out to be crappy.
Executioner Rogues suffer from Premature Expiration...
Seriously, I see no viable advantage to the executioner path. In PvE, given a situation of a stationary target that is being tanked with the TR in no jeopardy, the Executioner should deliver superior damage compared to the saboteur and scoundrel but in all other cases will
be much less capable and extremely vulnerable.
Even in the perfect damage setup I fear the executioner will still pale in damage compared to a comparable geared and skilled HR/GWF/CW/SW. I don't have reliable data to back up these concerns and my speculation is based on comparisons of damage from preview and live and an attempt to extrapolate a result based on an even more exposed TR.
Wwll executiiners damage is pretty solid. When i did the assenbly my scoundrel build took forever to kilk the lvl 62 npc. The difference on executiiner was noticable. With the two cooldown powes in sab every tr can cycle our encounters oretty efectuvely. Using mi invisibke infiktrator adds a second restealty optin.
I just dont tgink burst damage is a giood play model. Ultimately its the survival factor that will determine playability. Ie if im running teurn i have no doubt exe can killl stuff but it may just die from the npc trash critting for 30k.
Stealth builds require so much already like armor set, high recovery, points in intel and 10+ feat points, i really dont understand the GC nerf.
You have a tree that is only viable if your in stealth and then nerf the only ability you can still use in stealth to dust. I dont understand where the devs are coming from sometimes.
TRs should be the unquestioned masters of single target dps, really this is all we have.
Really revert gloaming cut nerf ... it hits for peanuts
Using this encounter does that initiate the capstone for executioner. Also doesn't use weapon enchantment...
Feedback: Executioner path
Like everyone else is saying, the capstone needs to activate on any hit not just encounter and needs to be applied to more than one target.
The primary ability score for the Trickster Rogue is Dexterity yet is among the worst ability scores to choose. Let us look at the three paths and see why this is.
For the Saboteur they will be able to maintain stealth and thus have 100% critical for the majority (if not all) of their attacks. Rogues chose dexterity mainly for criticals to increase damage and additionally for the slight increase in deflection, but now this will provide no damage increase and charisma will as well as an even greater deflection increase. Strength is also another choice for even more damage than provided by with charisma but no deflection increase. Others may choose con or int. No saboteur should ever consider dexterity.
For the Executioner they will hardly ever be in stealth and thus dexterity seems like it could be justified, but their main (only) purpose is to deliver damage and strength will provide a greater and more consistent increase in damage than dexterity would. The executioner suffers heavily in survivability and thus one might think you could argue for a slightly lower damage increase and slightly higher survivability increase to focus on the deflection from dexterity -- but charisma provides more deflection and the combat advantage damage bonus from it will result in more damage (except maybe solo without a tanking companion and without using bait and switch). Again we have strength and charisma easily proving superior to dexterity.
The Scoundrel is similar in ways to the Executioner, but with the ability to utilize the combat advantage from dazes more it becomes charisma being the more obvious choice.
I don't really know what to recommend. If you move damage to dexterity and change the feat "Disciple of Strength" to "Disciple of Dexterity" you could resolve the issue with regards to damage. Others have suggested a movement speed increase and while that is nice it isn't enough alone to justify choosing dexterity over other stats. Something like an increase in critical severity in addition to movement speed and the existing current bonuses would probably satisfy most on adding enough value to dexterity to make it worth considering (and that may seem to be asking for a lot but that is how low dexterity currently ranks to the other ability scores).
Can any others think of any reason to give consideration to dexterity over strength or charisma (or even other ability scores) in the current form on preview?
Bug: Lurker's Assault
When used on many targets, activating Lurker's Assault can lead to the quick death of the Trickster Rogue or cause the trickster rogue to miss the following few attacks. This is because the teleport feature added places the rogue within the target instead of just near to it. I will give a few examples.
When one uses lurker's with a dragon as the target, if the dragon happens to be using it's breath weapon at the time you activate lurkers you will be pulled into the breath weapon and usually die. Even if used from behind a dragon you will travel through it's backside and come out the mouth. Considering the other bug with lurkers (if you die while using lurkers you will lose stealth and be unable to regenerate stealth again until you zone or do a full count death -- i.e. no revive and let the timer expire) it makes the daily not just weak but also dangerous to use.
When used against other targets if you hold down an at will after using lurkers and getting ported you might hit with your next attack but the following will all be misses as you are moved to the outside of the target facing the opposite way of it. On targets like Garakas in Shores skirmish this can also quickly lead to the death of the TR if it is being tanked facing away from the TR.
I recommend that the teleport from Lurker's be completely removed as it offers no advantage and basically forces the rogue to look down (or around) until there is no target visible and then use the daily and then hunt the target again and engage.
Bug: Duelist's Flurry
When Duelist's Flurry is used against a dragon that is currently using its breath weapon and the Trickster Rogue is attacking from the side (as well as many other angles and locations), the flurry portion will pull the rogue into the breath attack and generally cause the death of the rogue. This could be because the breath attacks red area appears underneath the dragons coming from their back legs and extending out and not simply coming from their mouths as would be expected.
Yes lurker assault is horrible. It's like guaranteed problems on using daily which should actually help you not bring death on you. Same situation is on pvp where every class has better damage and more stuns than TR.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
I agree even with the current changes for TR I doubt it will have equal footing with other class, too many flaws and conditions for little benefit for example the saboteur tree looks nice but if you will test it its just a joke. Other people even talks about "balance" when other class are simply OP compared to rogues.
This is supposed to be our feat tree that provides high damage at the cost of losing Saboteur's stealth and Scoundrel's deflect/dazes. It's not worth it. Executioner gives you a high boost to damage when it comes to 1 or 2 hits, but overall it feels lackluster. Let's compare Executioner with other trees that provide damage: Destroyer, Archery, Fury and Thaumaturge.
The main difference I feel regarding this issue is that all of them proc either damage that is constantly applied (thaum & fury) or self buffs that last enough to take advantage of them (archery & destro). Executioner lacks this reliability because it depends too much on stealth. Arterial cut, vicious pursuit, exposed weakness, shadowborn, shadow of demise and to a lesser extent twisted grin and last moments, they all either proc with stealth or rely on stealth to be fully useful. To have a regular access to stealth you need encounters or pasives and that means by itself a loss on damage potential. Executioner needs a reliable way of accessing stealth or a change in the way those feats proc. Fury, destroyer and archery rely on the "tab" mechanic of each class, but all of these classes can use it in a fluid way.
Vengeance's Pursuit (teleport): the CC breaker effect completely removes Courage Breaker effect and frees you
Vengeance's Pursuit (teleport): the CC breaker effect still cannot break out from Icy Rays
Fox's Cunning: The activation of this self-buff
REMOVES an on-going Disheartening Strike from the HR....**grumble grumble** just how OP do you want the already OP HR to be, devs..!!
(ps) As if the HRs need any more defense... give that effect to TRs instead! We sorely need a DoT dropper!
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The main reason is because in my opinion, both skill (plus impact shot as ranged empower) are quite ineffective at 20ft. There many skill that could deal more damage at this range plus it's a melee skill. Also the recent change of Flourish, DF, and dazzling strike will definitely outshine the 'semi ranged skill with feat' in term of spike damage.
I think dagger threat should be an option for people who want to deal stable damage from 'quite' safe range. So...giving it more range would be awesome addition.
This is too situation for a class ability. I suggest you change it to "First encounter in combat does xx more damage, after 10 seconds your next encounter does xx/2 more damage"
Give a bit more sustainable damage plus we can time it much better by having it proc only off encounters.
Suggestion: Stealth depletion for at-wills.
I think this is good however for duelist flurry the third strike should be counted as 1 depletion aka 15%. It will still take us out of stealth but at least we can land a flurry while in stealth
Suggestion: Duelist Flurry
Please consider bringing back the faster ticks of DF or allowing it to stack to 20. This would really boost our single target damage and make it much easer to get into dung groups.
Suggestion: Executioner path
This path could use some tweaking. I think a lot it is due to class abilities. We have to take tenacious concealment so that our stealth isn't drained immediately and most take sneak attack so we have mobility. IMO with the changes to stealth, the bare minimum compensation should be that it isn't drained by attacks. Makes this a exe path only feature if you are worried about perma but we have to waste a power slotting that. We would all prefer to take some of the others that add damage etc. Also a feat that increase movement outside of stealth would be appreciated for this path. There is a lot of opportunity to improve but the idea is that we shouldn't have to slot all defensive powers and class abilities in order to have survivability.
Along these lines, having a self heal similar to wilds medicine would add a lot of viability to the executioner path. Maybe have it do half the healing of wilds medicine, just something to help improve our survivability.
Bugs: Shocking execution.
As many many TRs have mentioned. This power is broke. I don't know what you did to it but it hits for nothing right now. Please take a look. This is our big level 50 daily and also a paragon... that no TR is gonna use. Either buff its damage or add a rebuff effect to it or hell anything is better than where it currently is.
I do like that you gave us options other than the boring perma build. I think a lot of TR are just looking for our identity which has always been marketed as the single target DPS kings or "boss killers" that is where we would like to be.
PS: a pvp amor set that reduced our cool downs (similar to HR set) would go a long way.
I think this feature are meant for lashing blade, where your first impression does matter. In my opinion, adding 'the feature has a cooldown that based on how long you enter stealth mode' would be good reason to pick it because once in combat, this feature are pretty much useless.
Try using stealth at the 3rd strike and be amazed about how much damage it dealt.
I've been doing alot of epics with my guild lately and one thing that really annoys the hell out of me is when the bosses or minions do their melee range aoe. Any melee class has to dodge this or die which results in poorer performance from our classes.
Solution as suggested:
A few people have stated they would like to see some immunity frames added to some encounters (dazing,blitz, BnS) as well as a deflect buff that stacks with at will usage.
edit: BnS and Blitz already make you slide backwards, these could work exactly like a dodge except it doesnt consume our stam.
Otherwise it is.. bait and die in the process of rolling away from the shadow bait dummy.
Had an idea today to replace or adjust one the TR failing class features. (probably tactics as this isnt working properly and this suggestion can build AP quickly)
Suggestion:
Class Feature: Thrive Under Pressure
At-Will attacks now attack in a cone in front of you. Will attack for full damage when only one target nearby.
Rank 1: Damage Reduced on all targets hit by 35%
Rank 2: Damage reduced on all targets hit by 30%
Rank 3: Damage reduced on all targets hit by 25%
Something like that...
Could help alleviate the aoe issues.
dazing strike, smoke bomb, path of the blade, blitz
we are not lacking aoe tools.
we need survivability ! something rogue like that pushes our tankiness near the other melee class. Without ITC we are basically toast.
without shadow strike we are toast. With both shadow strike and itc, we are toast...just a little bit burnt. Math says 3-2=1 encounter slot left.
It's not like we have higher deflect of a gwf, or higher damage, or higher burst or higher movement speed hence the reasoning "but you are light armoured while they wear an heavy one" does not work anymore.
I would say: gwf is more roguish than us in all aspects but stealth.
and we need executioner to work, shadow demise proccing from every source of damage would fix the thing. (duelist, ticks ---- stealth --- proc from ticks )
we need to fix cooldowns allowing us to stack the right ability score (NOT INT) And power/crit not recovery !
we need a total rework or a fix of first strike ( it needs to proc every tot sec on encounters, not on all damages only if i leave combat )
and at that point i think we can consider TR a working class
Just confirmed Fox's Cunning also instantly drops all Duelist's Flurry bleed DoTs.
Judging by how it also drops DoTs from Disheartening Strike, my guess CW DoTs will also be dropped.
Any conventional DoT powers are now useless against HRs, including both DoTs the TRs have.
[Assessment]
I've come to realize the BANE of TRs, is DoTs. We have ZERO defense against those. None of our defensive methods work. It's probably the reason we were so hard-pressed against HRs after the Pathfinder release.
In NW, currently the defense against DoTs is:
(1) direct neutralization, such as DC cleanse powers, or the bugged Fox's Cunning
(2) direct, repeatable heals, such as DCs
(3) out-lasting through humongous amounts of Life Steal through despiccable number of attacks - HRs
(4) a huge HP pool + very high resistances - GFs.. but even GFs can't stand upto the DoTs now
(5) never get hit by DoTs in the first place -- theoretically possible, practically impossible in actual combat
※ Temporary relief through heal pots were possible, but now that many DoTs last so long, and the damage easily exceeding the 10k mark, it is now impractical
Among the above 5 methods, the TR has NONE. Our defense type is "low resistances", "high deflect", "high mobility through dodge"... but DoTs don't miss. Most DoTs are also ranged in their attack type. They can be deflected, but most DoT type powers are also quite short in recharge time and can easily be re-attempted and applied. Even worse, now most DoTs run through the course of much longer than 10 seconds. Some powers like Careful Bullshi* from the Pathfinder HRs, last 20.
This is often cause of trouble for not only the TR, but even those that have adequate defenses, like DCs -- they just melt with the amount of DoTs the HRs deal, for example.
[Conclusion/Suggestion]
While it pains me to say so, especially being a WK, reliant of a very powerful DoT myself, almost all of the DoTs in game should be revised. If they aren't going to touch the damage, at least, the duration needs to be reviewed. If every time you're hit with Disheartening, or the Fire of the Bullcrap, or Careful Bullcrap.. and you've got no choice but to dwindle down to near death due to the impending doom, it just makes the game play that much more passive.
Also, TRs need some type of defense against DoTs. Perhaps the option of giving the TR's CC breakers -- ITC and VP, an ability to drop DoTs upon activation, could be looked into. DoTs should be a contributor to the combat, not a determinator.
Do we need ginormous damage DoTs in game? OK fine, then at least make it have to be waited for recharge and reapplied every time. That goes the same for us WKs.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Are TRs the only striker class that doesn't get Armor penetration with stats? If that's so it should probably be fixed, our only function is DPS and we have to get all of it by equip and enchants, that we could use for other more useful things if we had AP with stats.
With the new Executioner tree, Tr had +25% AP in stealth, but, out of stealth ? And others Trees ? With of hand artifact bonus set, and new rings/neck/waist from new profession, it's more easy to run 20-24% ignored resistance, but for other stuff combinations ? And for pvp ?
We are Rogues, we need AP from primary stat ( dex ? ) because we are an agile an dexterous class who can analyse weaknesses of ennemy armor, and use those weaknesses for more damages. It's combat advantage, it's crit, and it's armor penetration class ability.
Sorry for my poor english.
That or at least DOUBLE the deflection a TR's stats give, PLUS add in movement speed to Dex or Str.
Just bring up the deflect ratio for DEX to same levels as CHA, 1% per point. Seriously, how a bright personality and charming stature helps you evade/parry incoming attacks more than dextrous movement and agility, is beyond me.
With the same 1pt = 1% ratio, on average TRs are going to receive 4~5% higher deflection than they currently have. And then, increase the Scoundrel T1 feat from 0.5/1.0/1.5/2.0/2.5 to 1/2/3/4/5%, and that's another 5% extra. With these two changes, on average 10% or so increase.
Without using silveries at defense slots, and using other items that have deflect, plus Boons, a TR usually achieves around 38~42%, depending on whether you're WK or MI.
Add 10% to that, and high-deflect builds will be boosted to 48~52%. A really crazy build that sacrifices a lot of HP (thus, probably staying at around 35~37k HP range), would be able to add another 3~4% on top of that, for a total of 52~56% deflect on average.
This should be sufficient, IMO.
As for movement speed, also 1pt = 1% rule would do fine -- but in this case, the speed buffs with both Skillful Infiltrator and Sneak Attack should be removed and changed to something else. On average, Dark Enchants plus boons boost your movement to 10~12% bonus. Adding in a 30% in stealth, plus another 10% or so from stats, is just too OP.
IMO, remove/change the speed boost from stealth in Sneak Attack, and lower the Skillful Infiltrator to 3/6/9%, from the previous 5/10/15. This way, on average WKs would do around 20% increase base, and MIs would move around at 35% or so. So both the WK/MI are much faster than before when out of stealth, but slightly slower than before when in stealth.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
A funny, but strangely awesome bug. I think this bug actually showcased how the BnS power could be made more useful when out of stealth. Observe:
http://youtu.be/jP-w6AXxTwg
Being a Scoundrel, on deployment, BnS applies concussive strike feat to targets nearby and dazes them. Yes, its an AoE daze (!!) for that matter. It only works out of stealth.
When in stealth it doesn't daze. Also, when somebody from afar approaches the dummy, it does not daze. Only during deployment, it dazes through Concussive Strikes.
An obvious bug, but it actually was so funny to wathc, and then got me thinking.
Why not makes this a feature for ALL TR paths??
Upon deployment when out of stealth, the BnS will deal an
INTERRUPT to all targets within "TRICKED" range for a very brief 1.5 seconds, while the dummy is deployed and the TR rolls to escape.The distance of the "roll-backwards" moveent will be increased upto par with the new dodge
Now.. this actually makes BnS a very nice emergency "panic button" for the TR, increasing its survivability, especially when surrounded by multiple enemies at close quarters. When you need to escape, deploy the dummy and every enemy around you will "flinch" for a very brief while -- but its still enough to stop them in mid-attack, as you roll away and buy some time to either try and run, or restealth.
Very funny bug, but strangely promising. An accidental thing, but its actually quite a viable boost to the TR's survivability, while not threatening or harming the enemy directly. I actually like this harmless, utilitarian bug!
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
To me tge bigger issue fir this is it means Tr gear is about 1500 pts behind other classes hat get te feature.i actualy tgink any class having it is bad gae design as it devalues armkr pen. But we should be on tge same playing field as othef classes.