i don't like sab/perma so i never specced for it, but doesn't bloodbath practically refresh all of your cooldowns with knife's edge feat? courage breaker probably does similar since it's also a multi-hit.
i do remember this being mentioned early on in this thread (also sounded like there were some pranks going around for a while with arty spam because of it)
The last time I tested it, it does. BB will instantly recharge your artifact, for instance, hence someone can use the DC artifact to charge up, 15s to full AP, use BB, use artifact again, another BB... so every 15s you can use BB.
Since then gc stated that KE was fixed so it does not effect artifacts, and only your powers on the tray... but I didn't hear anything about BB or CB mechanics itself being fixed.
Actually, I'd probably have to test it again now you've mentioned it. Good thinking.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
i don't like sab/perma so i never specced for it, but doesn't bloodbath practically refresh all of your cooldowns with knife's edge feat? courage breaker probably does similar since it's also a multi-hit.
i do remember this being mentioned early on in this thread (also sounded like there were some pranks going around for a while with arty spam because of it)
yes indeed, I use scoundrel cap and get 10 points from sab, and I can perma daze someone 24/7.
I wanna explore sab more to counter it, sicarius' GC hurts like hell, 1 BloodBath nearly killed me, and of course he also got dc art the 2nd Bath did spill my blood on IWP.
Edit: I think I figure sab now, and my god its bloody OP hahaha! can't wait to kill HRs with these 2 new delicious paths
StrawberryCheesecake TR BlackberryCheesecake CW
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] CheeseCake House
The last time I tested it, it does. BB will instantly recharge your artifact, for instance, hence someone can use the DC artifact to charge up, 15s to full AP, use BB, use artifact again, another BB... so every 15s you can use BB.
Since then gc stated that KE was fixed so it does not effect artifacts, and only your powers on the tray... but I didn't hear anything about BB or CB mechanics itself being fixed.
Actually, I'd probably have to test it again now you've mentioned it. Good thinking.
personally, i wish we could move away from this dependency on dailies, but it's definitely worth considering while it's there
5% at-will dmg + 15% cooldown reduction per daily hit vs 5% life-steal proc + 10% deflect upon entering stealth
i'm kinda leaning to those sab feats since they might be far more useful than those scoundrel feats. a daily that can daze on a critical, slow (if using courage breaker), auto-refresh all encounters (if using bloodbath), and even proc combat advantage for 15 sec (if using infiltrator's action). only issue will be a need to increase my ap gain for that but there is no doubt that it's the tankiest way to go outside of stealth.
after testing though, it's just bloodbath that does it. most likely because it takes you in/out of combat for each hit (can't use it when soloing garakas because of that >.>). at least that feat isn't completely overpowered but it is still powerful for a tier 2 feat
Feeback
Infiltrator action as is now is barely used by anyone. I think it should be changed to feat which is anti control. Since stealth depletion TR don't have so much stealth as before so i think this feat should be changed on 5%/10%/20% shorter control effect on TR.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Bug : Feat Saboteur - One with the Shadows (T5) Sabo`s Feat - 'One with the Shadows' : when i used encounter in stealth let say Lashing Blade, sometime im out of stealth will fully stealth meter and sometime still in stealth with fully stealth meter.
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IMPACT SHOT: damage should be revised, the first hit has a 3.3k tooltip, the third one 1.5k .
low numbers indeed but they also dont do what the tooltip says: more damages the less charges you have.
i know it can be exploited so my solution is: buff hard the first shot, adjust as you feel the followings.
SHOCKING EXECUTION: if it hits for 10k crits (pvp/pve) i m usually amused. like...ehi really 10k? oh thanks!
want to avoid big numbers? let it be used with 25% AP and further adjust damage.
this would also give a sense to T2 executioner feat.
i have also the feeling that ratio damage/utility/cooldown is very wrong talking about encounters
I want to make clear that my feedback is about PvE and it's all about getting some balance with respect to other dps classes (or classes with a dps build )
( my opinion is that in PvP, powers should behave differently in order not to hinder PvE performance )
Feedback about latest changes currently on preview:
I wanted to ask a clarification about the new Sly Flourish: the 10% more incoming damage from broken armor, is it a reduction of Damage Resistance, the same kind of armor penetration?
I ask because the first time you said something like: "broken armor: the enemy receive 5% more damage from all sources" and it seemed a debuff of different kind than the usual Damage Resistance debuff
Like I said in a previous post, a different debuff from DR debuff would make TR more useful in a team:
with endgame PvE in mind, almost everyone has an adequate amount of armor penetration in order to achieve 24% damage resistance reduction and a debuff of this kind isn't much useful
(on the other hand it could be great while liveling)
Thanks for the changes to DF, it seems a bit more useful now!
More shift rolls are also a welcome change, they give more breathing room!
Feedback about MI Executioner
(just for reference my gs is 14.5)
Could you update First Strike tooltips or at least the description into powers' tab?
I find it difficult to realize if it is useful for executioner...
for example, it could be useful if the power resets
1) after X seconds, while refraining from attacking
2) after Y seconds no matter if you attack or not
where X should be something like 3-4 seconds and Y something like 20 seconds
I feel that Executioner's capstone, shadow of demise, is more difficult to use than those of saboteur and scoundrel paths
Executioner has the same difficulty of Scoundrel in regaining full stealth, but Scoundrel can use its capstone feat every 10 seconds, while Executioner is often able to use shadow of demise only once during a single combat...
this is due to the fact that when you are visible and you get hit (with stealth meter not full), regeneration of stealth halts and the meter goes down
I know this behavior has always been present with TR, but this problem wasn't present with previous Executioner's capstone (Overrun critical) since it didn't involve stealth
I'll let you know if the changes you announced for the next update will be of help in this matter, but I think this behaviour will still be too harmful towards TRs ... really, no other class has such punishments for receiving damage
(attention, I'm not talking about stealth depletion while taking damage in stealth mode, that makes sense)
with ITC immunity removal it just became more obvious
Executioner's damage (I tried getting all of the feats from exec. tree except devastating shroud and exposed weakness) seems in the right direction
I can solo medium heroic encounters in dwarven valley
( the setup I mostly used:
path of the blade, dazing strike and lashing blade
first strike, skillful infiltrator
duelist's flurry, cloud of steel
courage breaker, whirlwind of blades )
I had problems with the mini dungeon's boss in the tiamat campaign area (I remember having a tough time even with scoundrel)
knife trowers and other monsters can still target through stealth
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gormenghast1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 88Arc User
edited November 2014
Hi everybody,
as a constant and avid NWO player since beta opening, I'd like to bring back on the right track this thread with some personal feedback contribution. I'll anticipate that my feedback comes from more than a year and a half of playing the TR class as my first and most liked one and having played extensively pretty much every other class (excluding GF), which is helpful to compare the different gameplay styles; also, as an old PnP RpG player, I'd like to maintain a reference to the "Dungeons and Dragons" game which boldly appears in the first loading screen every time we log in Neverwinter Online.
General Feedback on the class:
Rogues are cunning and elusive adversaries. Rogues slip into and out of shadows on a whim, pass anywhere across the field of battle without fear of reprisal, and appear suddenly only to drive home a lethal blade.
While the idea of a class based on cunning gameplay and elusiveness is probably one of the reason for many TR players to have chosen this class, the direction taken by NW's gameplay effectively hinders to uselessness any attempt to play a TR without using some "FotM" meta, possibly counterintuitive but effective in handling with PvE and PvP threats. Permastealthing has been for a long time the solution, allowing TRs to endure the overwhelming damage received by every kind of external source, i.e. PvE adds, bosses and PvP enemies. As far as I am afraid of, we are looking at a switch to another boring and meta mechanic based on stunlocking in substitution to permastealthing.
Permastealth has now become a feasible feature, disabling the effectiveness of dagger tossing/bilethorn combo and forcing the TR in a heavy melee style that balances the scales in PvP (risk vs. reward of more burst damage vs. retaliation/CC effects on a fragile class) and representing only one of the viable PvE builds among different choices made available with the latest changes. The ranged drift that TR has to endure is forced by inefficient survival tools, non existence of any kind of "reflex saves" which give the PnP Trickster Rogue the ability to "pass anywhere across the field of battle without fear of reprisal" and lackluster implementation of melee powers. TR melee at-wills are possibly the most awful powers among at-wills of every other class, competing only with GWF ones. This is because every ranged at will autolocks the target, while melee at wills (many, not all) have an erratic way of hitting due to range, positioning, hit angle, connection latency and internal server lag. This is why Sly Flourish has always been shunned in favor of Duelist Flurry, even if it should represent the dexterous rain of blows of which a nimble class like a TR should be allowed to land; the advantage of target locking during the third strike, in addiction to a CC immunity frame have put this clunky and counterintuitive at-will at the top of TR player's arsenal. Not to mention that Duelist Flurry does not even exist as an at-will or encounter in Dungeons and Dragon's Trickster Rogue.
The Trickster Rogue should be a planner, a small battlefield tactician able to exploit the chaos in a fight to hinder and possibly take out the heaviest opponents, while offering support with trickery and deceit (translated in crowd control effects and aggro shifts). While this possibility is still partially available to Whisperknives due to the ranged autolocking mechanic, allowing them to focus on a specific target, every Master Infiltrator knows well how frustrating is running behind 200% movement speed adds in PvE that fling themselves around like crazed pinballs or being completely unable to hit anything in movement in PvP. At-wills should be bread and butter powers between the occurrence of having an encounter or a daily available; with the current melee mechanic, every melee class is dramatically hindered.
Conclusion: there can't be any way to have an efficient melee class (heavy hitter, ambusher, tank, you name it), without a rework of all melee powers target locking in a reasonable range. Relating specifically to the TR class, in order to achieve that "cunning sneak" archetype there has to be implemented an internal class resistance to CC in accordance with the reflex save existing in PnP Dungeons and Dragons to balance effectively the intrinsic great weaknesses of low damage mitigation, low achievable levels of deflection for effective DPS builds and scarce (Master infiltrator) to almost non existant (Whisperknife) CC immunities or resistances. No rework in this sense will obviously force the Whisperknife choice over Master Infiltrator due to an inefficient mechanic system, while both paragon paths should be equally viable and fun to play.
Specific considerations on ability scores:
I won't repeat what has been frequently pointed out by many other feedback contributors about the questionable logic behind ability bonuses for the TR class, but refer to Dungeons and Dragons in order to shine some light on it. In order of relevance and importance, Dexterity as the main class ability for TRs deserves a special insight.
Dexterity (Dex) measures hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance.
✦ Ranged basic attacks are based on Dexterity.
✦ Many ranger and rogue powers are based on Dexterity.
✦ Your Dexterity might contribute to your Reflex defense.
✦ If you wear light armor, your Dexterity might con- tribute to your Armor Class.
✦ Dexterity is the key ability for Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery skill checks.
As we can all see, dexterity should grant a flat bonus on powers, a reflexive protection and a contribution to damage mitigation. In NWO this should be translated in flat damage % bonus, a CC resistance bonus and a way to reduce damage in form of flat damage reduction and/or a sensible bonus to deflection for every point over 10.
Due to the recent changes, the main stat of the class has no reason to be chosen over the secondary ones. It doesn't make great logical sense and is counterintuitive for both new and old players to call something "primary" while being effectively of little use in comparison to secondary or tertiary class abilities.
Strength (Str) measures your character’s physical power. It’s important for most characters who fight hand-to-hand.
Charisma (Cha) measures your force of personality, persuasiveness, and leadership.
Wisdom (Wis) measures your common sense, perception, self-discipline, and empathy. You use your Wisdom score to notice details, sense danger, and get a read on other people.
Intelligence (Int) describes how well your character learns and reasons.
Constitution (Con) represents your character’s health, stamina, and vital force. All characters benefit from a high Constitution score.
Relating to secondary and tertiary abilties, I would ask you to consider the main aspects of the TR class being mobility, elusiveness and conditional bonuses to DPS. Since the creation of NWO many mechanics have changed and the classes rework should take this into consideration, so my advice would be to focus on distributing secondary characteristics in line with the TR concept among the remaining ability bonuses. These secondary characteristic bonuses should be:
✦ bonus to combat advantage damage. Addictive and not multiplicative, in relation to the everlasting debate on how this bonus works toward increasing the base damage for the TR class.
✦ movement speed. Self explanatory on the "mobility" element of the class.
✦ AoE and CC resistance (innate). Possible NWO transliteration of the TR "reflex save" in the PnP version of the game. Take into consideration a bonus increase of 2% per point over 10 to make this class actually viable with the mechanics of the game.
✦ Deflection bonus. Also needed to allow a certain survivability of the class.
✦ Stamina recharge speed. Also related to the "mobility" element.
✦ Flat damage bonus. For more DPS oriented builds.
✦ Powers recharge speed and Action Point gain speed. Due to the very long cooldowns of most TR encounters and a really hard way to build AP to effectively use daily powers.
After long thinking and testing, I'd consider to balance a reasonable distribution of the aforementioned bonuses keeping out of the equation two outdated ones:
✦ Critical chance % bonus. With the new 100% critical hits in stealth mechanic, an ability bonus to critical chance is redundant. Through equipment it's normal to have a 30% critical chance out of stealth and 100% during stealth, which is in my opinion reasonable enough.
✦ Resistance ignored. It's not hard for a TR to achieve a -25% resistance ignored through equipment and every other reduction of target's mitigation should be obtained through use of active powers or specific feats. Sly Flourish new effect, Wicked Reminder and the new piercing damage mechanic are enough to adapt TR's gameplay against very tough and resilient targets.
Obviously an optimal distribution should take into consideration Strength and Charisma as TR's secondary abilities, leaving less in-line bonuses as hit points or CC bonuses to tertiary abilities such as constitution, intelligence and wisdom.
Feedback on Trickster Rogue Powers:
The following considerations take in account my experience with the Master Infiltrator paragon path and are by choice not based on theorycrafting or class meta building but just on an extensive "feel" through sessions of solo PvE, instanced group PvE and open world PvP in PTS. I will also loosely consider the equivalent powers in the PnP 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons version (where possible), in order to keep a correspondence between the actual TR class in NWO and the archetype on which it's based upon.
Cloud of Steel: steady short-medium ranged DPS, pretty much a DPS gap filler with the most updated version. The advertised changes taking place soon could give it a bit more sting but not too much, which is consistent with small daggers thrown out when it's not possible to use the class main weapons. Interesting note: in the PnP version it's a small blast attack, meaning it has a little AoE and giving it the reason to be called "cloud of steel".
Sly Flourish: what should be the main TR attack, mixing mobility with agile and fast aimed hits. Sadly considered a lesser at-will due to game metas such as low melee chance to hit against moving targets due to poor melee target locking mechanic, lack of CC frames in comparison to Duelist Flurry and no specific advantage, at least till the recent changes. What makes of SF the underdog among TR at-wills is the lack of short range target locking (in the order of 2-3 ft), which would give it a reason to be a choice for its decent damage and 4th swing party bonus. All ranged powers lock targets and many melee at-wills too (DF during third phase, HR's Aimed Strike, SW's Hand of Blight won't miss melee attacks but switch to ranged if target has moved out of melee reach...), so it would be advisable to put on par melee classes reworking the hitting randomness of many melee powers.
Dazing Strike: as an AoE dazing power with a fast activation time, DS has gained a lot of potential and will be definitely used a lot more than before. It could do even better (especially for learning players) with a contextual flashing template to help defining the area hit by the power.
Deft Strike: originally a gap closer at-will, it has become an encounter power after an early revision. The increase of duration and effect of slow effect are welcome, but its damage and recharge rate are too underwhelming to make it shine. An increase of damage to make this power a medium hitter or a cooldown reduction to grant more utility would probably give it a reason to be used more than it's used now.
Lashing Blade: this encounter has seen his highs and lows, being now in a questionable state. Due to enchantment metas it has "shone" as an one-shotter, but it was never the encounter to be overpowered in the beginning. Due to its long cooldown, its damage in PvE is a bit lackluster. In PvP it's true that it could be enhanced a lot by clever use of class features and feats to gain a high burst bonus, but since open beta there have been a few additions to be taken in consideration. Fox cunning, Prophetic Action, Tenacity, Barkshield enchantment and quite a number of feats work against initial and sudden bust damage, making "heavy hit out of stealth" builds quite underperforming (not counting how dodgeable this power is to begin with). With all these elements taken in consideration, I don't have many good words for Lashing; there is not even a power like this in PnP Dungeons and Dragons, so it's even harder to find a place for it if not in the most naive builds as it is now. A reduction of the long cooldown in line with similar heavy hitters (I'm thinking of IBS) could give it reason to be taken into consideration.
Lurker Assault: once it was "10 seconds of DPS glory", now it's a barely noticeable DPS bonus shadowed by effective burst damage and utility effect given by other dailies. With all the changes taking place and the development of the game in this year and a half, this daily is badly underperforming as it is now. Considering the way stealth works now, it could be reasonable to stop stealth depletion from at-wills during the active time of this daily. No way to compare it with PnP D&D, as this power doesn't exist there. Whirlwind of Blades: great burst damage, nice bonus, definitely a wise choice for every TR power tray.
Bait and Switch: changes cannot be tested still, but a taunting dummy could be very useful to low GS players. High content threats eat through the dummy in less than a fraction of second, giving it the sole role of an AP piñata and stealth refiller. In PnP D&D it works in such different ways to be altogether a different power, so any comparison is quite pointless.
Duelist Flurry: the last changes have given DF a responsiveness much more in line with what a TR power should be. Its use negates completely any chance to keep the smallest pip of stealth due to the huge amount of small hits counted towards the number of at-wills draining stealth, but its damage compensates well enough the loss of critical hits out of stealth on the long term. During trash mob melting in instanced party runs, it's hard to make it shine due to the very short survivability of even the most tough adds. I didn't test DF in PvP so I can only imagine that it will definitely be easier to land one out of stealth due to the faster activation time, but every landing of the flurry component is equivalent to losing a stealth bar. It will be probably more useful for scoundrels, paired with a clever use of dazes, but harder to use against everyone other than the most stationary and clueless opponents. I'd like to reiterate that this last part is not a feedback, but only a theoretical consideration.
Blitz:this encounter shines for its DPS output, especially when thrown from stealth against a bunch of adds. The utility debuff is not very discernible, but this encounter is definitely worthy to be slotted DPS wise.
Path of the Blade: uptime increased, making this encounter a steady and flat DPS bonus. Damage split among maximum 3 targets for 33% of the original damage, meaning 0% loss against 3 targets, 33% loss against 2, 66% against 1. Even with this huge decrease in 1vs1 situations, it doesn't proc enchantments as AoEs centered on self in any other class do (Steal Time, for example, procs for a whole lots of hits with a powerful CC and a good burst damage at the end, as pretty much any other self centered AoE power). The animation has always been horribly slow and the crucifixed position of the character using this power fits perfectly with the player thoughts of "please don't nuke/CC me to death while I wait here for PotB to activate!". I found little to no reason to use this power in pretty much any context right now.
Impossible to Catch: the loss of immunity frames through use of this power out of stealth changes heavily the way a TR has to struggle to survive. Even with the Damage Reduction bonus, it makes little difference when hit by huge damaging AoEs or a barrage of 65 level adds hits in PvE and grants maybe a full second or two more before being melted anyways. As many have already said before, this is a heavy hit against TR survivability if not paired with a relevant increase of innate defenses to cope with incoming damage. If, and only if, TRs could be granted better chances to survive, I would even see as a good change the loss of 100% deflect chance from ItC while making it a charged power with a "break from CC" effect. This would push the class towards a more versatile and fast paced gameplay, without the need to implement those immunity frames that are generally frowned upon. In PnP ItC grants true invisibility, so I'd say that any thoughts about that are better left alone.
Impact Shot: even after a damage buff, IS doesn't really do this great damage and has only a small CC effect from stealth. It could be valuable in synergy with dazes granted by feats but it's still underperforming when compared to many other powers available to the TR. As a striker class, IMHO the TR should be given some consideration towards increasing damage with peace of mind. Adds have become very tough and all the other classes have gained a lot in terms of damage resistance; giving some real DPS to a charged encounter with a medium range could help to improve a bit the sorry state of TR's lousy striker role.
Gloaming Cut: even after the last damage reduction, GC retains its usefulness as the single and only at-will not draining stealth at the cost of a very clumsy animation and a quite static gameplay in PvE, and even more in PvP. As its concept should be, GC takes the role of the slow heavy hitter at-will in the MI TR arsenal with the additional utility to circumvent the dramatic loss of stealth with the most recent changes. In terms of DPS output, it had found a niche in the MI arsenal while in groups and kepts being hard to effectively use in PvP; the recent 15% (or more?) damage reduction was IMHO not needed, for its slow and cumbersome heavy hitting deserved at least a decent damage to compensate.
Courage Breaker: a single target debuffing daily with a damage that got a small improvement, having pretty much the same utility it had before. It could do with some rework regarding damage or duration of the debuff. Still I never understood why, among classes that use magic or hulking behemoths with 8 ft double-handed swords, a trickster should be the one to let an enemy cower in fright. This daily doesn't exist in PnP D&D and there would have been lots of better alternatives for a 40 level daily, but probably TRs will have to work with what they have.
Shadow Strike: the holy grail of replenishing stealth, no damage to speak of, awfully slow and bugged animation while the player community is seeing lots of changes toward making powers more responsive and fun to play. Stealth has become more a "blink out-blink back" through use of any at-will and encounter available to the class, so it should be noted that the painfully slow throw of that shadowy dagger is dramatically opposite to what a power of a nimble class should be. Making this game more fast paced for everyone is a good way to make it more fun and I think there is no reason to keep SS as it was since beta in fear of TRs not giving enough time frames to be targeted and efficiently countered.
Wicked Reminder: less stacks to apply for a full debuff equivalent to what it was before changes and the damage bonus are definitely a great improvement, but the activation time seems quite slow for one of the powers with the shortest cooldown in the TR arsenal.
Smoke Bomb: adding damage to an almost excellent utility AoE power could really give SB a comfy place on the power tray, but still there is too little info about the DPS output to say more. The stun effect has always been delayed in regards of the activation time of the bomb, causing most of the strange behaviors of adds caught in the AoE. Elimination of that gap between power use and effect application would be a very welcome change.
Shocking Execution: as for many other 50 level dailies in other classes, I feel that the capstone daily for MI TRs is definitely underperforming. Add the clumsy animation, which could still have been acceptable when NWO hit beta, the really low damage for a daily with no utility effects that and the relative ease of being avoided gives it at most a niche in PvP against high mitigation targets with resistance and regeneration buffs at low hit points, while totally pointless in PvE. As for many other paragon paths dailies, Shocking Execution could do with a general restyle to be slottable once again.
Thanks for your patience in reading this post and i hope that the feedback the developers are receiving will help with making every class fun and intriguing to play, TR included. Please abstain from commenting and help moderators to keep this thread clean.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
knife trowers and other monsters can still target through stealth
Knife throwers don't target, they use an AoE attack when aggroed by anything, which will simply hit you if you're in range of it, stealthed or not. If they never see you, they won't use it at all, but they'll use that attack on other players and hit you, use it while you're entering stealth and it'll hit you, etc. This is working as intended.
Many newer bosses are immune to stealth. This is also working as intended.
Knife throwers don't target, they use an AoE attack when aggroed by anything, which will simply hit you if you're in range of it, stealthed or not. If they never see you, they won't use it at all, but they'll use that attack on other players and hit you, use it while you're entering stealth and it'll hit you, etc. This is working as intended.
Many newer bosses are immune to stealth. This is also working as intended.
No, you can clearly see knife trowers turn around if you move around them, and that means it's a targeted attack... the fact that it's even AoE is something else
The same behaviour is shown by wight casters... they trow a projectile which follows you, it doesn't go straight like an AoE would (see TR's blitz for reference)
And I wasn't talking about bosses when referring to others that can see through stealth, but I meant simple mobs
( I still don't get why people other than devs continue replying )
Bug : Feat Saboteur - One with the Shadows (T5) Sabo`s Feat - 'One with the Shadows' : when i used encounter in stealth let say Lashing Blade, sometime im out of stealth will fully stealth meter and sometime still in stealth with fully stealth meter.
thanks.
Yep it happened, i think it's because 'one with the shadows' got built in delay. This situation is more likely happened when you use encounter skill with stealth meter bellow 25%. On the other hand, it also count as advantage because re-entering stealth further reduce your encounter cooldown via shady preparation.
Edit: Shadowy opportunity is working as intended after respec
Is it just me or Cloud of steel doesn't have bonus damage per stack anymore?
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
No, you can clearly see knife trowers turn around if you move around them, and that means it's a targeted attack... the fact that it's even AoE is something else
The same behaviour is shown by wight casters... they trow a projectile which follows you, it doesn't go straight like an AoE would (see TR's blitz for reference)
And I wasn't talking about bosses when referring to others that can see through stealth, but I meant simple mobs
( I still don't get why people other than devs continue replying )
I have encountered this problem also and timed how it happens.
For the first three second after entering stealth even if you are out of range of monsters, if you come within range they will rush in your direction and ranged ones will attack.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
after thinking about things for a bit, i thought of a few suggestions and some can be for all classes. the exact numbers don't have to be taken literally.
Class Features
Infiltrator's Action: change it to instead allow us to retain combat advantage for 2-3 seconds after dealing combat advantage damage with +1 sec per point. this gives more of a feeling of pressuring the opponent to throw us off to reduce the damage they take. also solves a long-term issue of maintaining combat advantage in pve when your party doesn't stand still. this can even turn our action advantage heroic feat into a decent choice as well.
Tactics: double/triple the ap gain to allow it to be more of a rival against other features.
Feats
Battlewise: nobody is interested in less threat generation so this can be replaced with any other feat. possibly dazzling blades or 2/4/6% deflect severity or something.
Roll with the Punches: double the deflect to be more on par with other tier 1 feats
Bloody Brawler: double the life-steal to be more on par with other tier 1 feats
Press the Advantage paragon feat: change this to .5/1/1.5/2/2.5 sec increased duration on itc
Savage Blows: change this to a proc that damages foes when we deflect (affected by defense/tenacity/armor pen)
Mocking Gesture: change this to a 10% deflect severity buff after dealing combat advantage damage
Buffing Stats
Dexterity giving run speed: 1-2% run speed per point would go a long way to improving survivability by reaction timing as well as decreasing the time to return to our targets after dodging away with the longer dodge rolls. i consider 70% run speed to be a good mile-stone for movement out of stealth. this can be done for all classes
Dexterity giving more deflect: 1.5% per point will allow more of a comfort zone in distributing stats while also allowing for tanky builds to achieve higher deflect levels. 1% deflect per point can be done for other classes
Doubling aoe/dot resist gained from stats: with the ever increasing damage in pvp, this can be somewhat of an alternative instead of just scaling up tenacity but can also be done together for more effectiveness. this can be done for all classes
Charisma gives more combat advantage: 2% per point can encourage stacking charisma over strength. this is for all classes
Wisdom gives more control bonus/resist: 2% per point will encourage more to build for resisting cc spam as even wizards themselves don't put points in wisdom for it but for the recharge/ap gain. this is for all classes with clerics getting 3% per point
Scale up soft-caps on movement stat: this stat is extremely difficult to get to even 10% this is for all classes
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited November 2014
more run speed would be nice especially since we lost one of our run% bonus feats in mod 5
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It would seem that the upcoming TR changes will go a long way in improving class mechanics and generally providing us with more more viable builds to try out and enjoy. While several core issues have already been addressed, one has not; namely survivability whilst out of stealth. Perma-stealth is still perfectly manageable via the Scoundrel paragon path, albeit with more emphasis on high-risk, high-reward melee attacks and encounters, rather than just spamming CoS and weaving in and out with DF. I would like to point out however that exploiting stealth mechanics via the lock-on feature is a real thing, and a major show-stopper for myself and other TRs out there. I can't for a moment imagine that this is WAI, and needs to be addressed. It is unthinkable that a CW standing at max-range is able to target me with a direct damage ability while I'm stealthed.
The reason I've pointed out this exploit specifically is because it ties directly into survivability out of stealth. Since the developers have decided to rework stealth to be a "quick burst in power that rewards smart play to confuse foes", the question becomes what TRs should do once out of stealth. This is based on the assumption that the target is not dead once a TR's stealth has expired, which is most often the case (and quite rightfully so). Gaining extra dodges has added a degree of maneuverability we were sorely lacking, but sadly it is nowhere near enough. Setting aside the whole D&D rule-set (because let's face it NWN barely uses D&D rules as guidelines) Trickster Rogues should be agile, lightning-quick strikers who have the ability to catch up to any target, whether ranged or melee. As it stands, any other class, provided they're utilizing their utility slots efficiently can play keep away from a TR for as long as they wish. It is not a matter of encounters or using the Shift key, I'm referring to just plain old running. This frustrating aspect of the game is eclipsed by the fact that a melee class wearing plate mail armor and carrying a massive two-handed sword has the ability to catch up to me without breaking too much of a sweat!
This is where Dexterity should come in, as that is its main function. Improving agility, running speed, reflexes (in this case deflection) are all the hallmarks of the Dexterity attribute. I do not want the TR to become like the HR, with some builds so tanky and over-geared I've seen several in-game who can annihilate entire enemy teams. A TR should be able to stay on-target, provided they possess the skill and presence of mind to correctly judge their opponent's intentions and react accordingly. A TR should not have to rely on a ranged ability like CoS for sheer damage output because their target is being too elusive. The only other class that has the type of agility and cat-like reflexes TRs claim to possess is the HR, making an encounter between the two a deadly dance. A GWF on the other hand has no business moving as fast as a TR does, nor do any of the other classes for that matter. I whole-heartedly support the idea of an attribute tweak wherein these concerns can be addressed. As it stands we have gained quite a few powerful abilities in the offensive department, but the core issue of defensive capabilities available to the TR remains unaddressed.
P.S.
Please, please, please fix shadow strike for the love of God. There's nothing quite as frustrating as having it go on CD without any discernible effect whatsoever.
FINAL TESTING BUILD PRE-SMOKE BOMB DOT:
- SCOUNDREL: MI-WK - they all do their job. Some feats are way underperforming tho, Life steal and deflect feats are not worth.
you always go take the CDR ones in sabo.
- SABO: PERFECT. Probably the cooldown reductions feats can see some love. 10% is really low, still notificable but very very low.
- EXECUTIONER: i still dont see a reason for this path to exist. However it can be liked by some masochists. No survivability no stealth, feat working just around stealth... no seriously i dont like it at all. T2 feats useless 100%.
Shadow of demise should proc from every source of damage: like it was on release without auto-refreshing
-SURVIVABILITY: it does not exist. you out of stealth? you dead without any "maybe if" . A trapper ranger can easily 2 shots you.
-NO CLASS MECHANICS: we are the only class without one.... maybe something like receaving and dealing damage gives you a stacks of "you now are less squishy" which give you 1% deflect up to 15%?
- SWIFT FOOTWORK: seems bugged in a "not working at all" sense.
- SKILLS: shocking and impact shot can see some love...a big love. Suggestions: slightly increase damage of shocking and lower the AP needed.
About Impact shot: do as you please it cant be worst than now. BUG: recharge is not affected by INT and recovery.
Still dont understand the reduced damage: GF griffon has 3x charges. Each one hits for 15k. What's the difference?
Shadow strike: would love a speed up in the animation. When i need stealth i cant wait for 1.5-2 sec of animation.
it's still bugged too. IF the enemy go out on range during the animation the skill goes in cooldown without doing damage (xD) and without refilling stealth
deft strike: need 4-5 seconds cooldown no more
- STEALTH; i m getting used to depletion but i think it can be prolonged of about 1.5s-2s. % of depletion is still the same so it would not affect damage output of unfairness in pvp. It just give some breath more at the cost of a dps loss.
Indeed switching to not stealth base gears feels too much punishing.
BUG: we can be focused/followed in stealth by using command lines.
New changes should be absolutely focused on survivability and in lowering very high cooldowns damage .
Asking for higher damage ( excluding the 2 above ) will just lead to nerf for crying... i know that.
It's not like they are high now but still, it will happen.
So let's just focus on what we have been given and in order to do this, we need to be able to live more out of stealth
Combat advantage clarification:
is this still the formula?
CONCLUSION: regardless buffs, which are always appreciated. we are meatball, squishier than CW, SW, HR and not even remotely comparable with the other melee in game in tankiness and cooldown managment,. Would you like to address these in the next build?
Whisperknives are the weakest, slowest class/paragon in the game. This is why on both preview and live, I don't even bother with taking shadowstrike, simply because I can't outrun anything anyways.
My suggestion is the make dagger threat allow for ranger dagger attacks to be utilized while moving, much like VP is now on test.
Yes. The fact that a GWF can sprint away from TR has always bothered me. We shouldn't be this slow considering the speed and mobilty of our adversaries.
I do not believe we should have a sprint like GWF. A base run speed increase is certainly justified, but I'm thinking of something more...rogue-ish. Ok here's the suggestion to work into Scoundrel and Executioner trees for out of stealth survival:
Weaving Evasion: Provides 5/10/15/20/25% run speed increase for 4 seconds after leaving Stealth and provides 75% dmg reduction (jumping off point- let's discuss what would be fair) Create a nice weaving animation similar but different than ItC.
This would be especially beneficial to WK builds that will be exposed to an even higher degree than their MI counterparts.
I like your suggestion what worries me is that the moment we pop out of stealth and inside CW or HR (every dominion match have 2-3 of this class) range TR is dead before he can gap the distance, GWF and GF also have gap close accompanied by either stun or prone.
Whisperknives are the weakest, slowest class/paragon in the game. This is why on both preview and live, I don't even bother with taking shadowstrike, simply because I can't outrun anything anyways.
My suggestion is the make dagger threat allow for ranger dagger attacks to be utilized while moving, much like VP is now on test.
I suggested this before but looks like this will not happen because for sure a lot of melee class will complain, probably with reduced movement speed while attacking this might happen.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited November 2014
Feedback:
SW = run faster than a mount (shift key)
GWF = run faster than a mount (sprint)
TR = has to slot 2 class features and hit tab to obtain the maximum speed bonus, and still is slower than the above two listed classes
Also if you slot speed class features with TR you can kiss your ability to use stealth goodbye in mod 5, unless you are saboteur.
You have removed one of our speed feats from saboteur path in mod 5, please compensate the TR class with more speed based on our dexterity. (18 dexterity = 10%mobility = optimal)
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Feedback: MI EXE need some love. Capstone feat need a boost. Shadow of Demise should proc from every source of dmg and be stackable and multitarget.
If EXEs sacrifice stealth, do that means something more rewarding. They're called Executioners after all.
Maybe create some feat that procs with LB too. Cooldown and dmg.
And make Shocking Execution something more than a bad joke.
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eponyme77Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited November 2014
Hi,
About the speed run, you can also take Skullcracker wich give you 25% more speed.
After some test, Saboteur and Scoundrel seems to be interesting, and offer us 2 different gameplay.
But, about the Executioner path... I try it and it's really boring to play...
Comments
The last time I tested it, it does. BB will instantly recharge your artifact, for instance, hence someone can use the DC artifact to charge up, 15s to full AP, use BB, use artifact again, another BB... so every 15s you can use BB.
Since then gc stated that KE was fixed so it does not effect artifacts, and only your powers on the tray... but I didn't hear anything about BB or CB mechanics itself being fixed.
Actually, I'd probably have to test it again now you've mentioned it. Good thinking.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
yes indeed, I use scoundrel cap and get 10 points from sab, and I can perma daze someone 24/7.
I wanna explore sab more to counter it, sicarius' GC hurts like hell, 1 BloodBath nearly killed me, and of course he also got dc art the 2nd Bath did spill my blood on IWP.
Edit: I think I figure sab now, and my god its bloody OP hahaha! can't wait to kill HRs with these 2 new delicious paths
BlackberryCheesecake CW
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CheeseCake House
personally, i wish we could move away from this dependency on dailies, but it's definitely worth considering while it's there
5% at-will dmg + 15% cooldown reduction per daily hit vs 5% life-steal proc + 10% deflect upon entering stealth
i'm kinda leaning to those sab feats since they might be far more useful than those scoundrel feats. a daily that can daze on a critical, slow (if using courage breaker), auto-refresh all encounters (if using bloodbath), and even proc combat advantage for 15 sec (if using infiltrator's action). only issue will be a need to increase my ap gain for that but there is no doubt that it's the tankiest way to go outside of stealth.
after testing though, it's just bloodbath that does it. most likely because it takes you in/out of combat for each hit (can't use it when soloing garakas because of that >.>). at least that feat isn't completely overpowered but it is still powerful for a tier 2 feat
Knife's Edge works as it should be, imo, even with multihit dailies. Don't know if it's on porpouse, but is the way it should be.
Come on...it's a daily activation. Even with DC artifact on. It only help us. In fact, is part of my Mod5 build.
TRs is the worst class in terms of AP gain, come on...Don't even tell me it's OP. Specially in PVE.
Infiltrator action as is now is barely used by anyone. I think it should be changed to feat which is anti control. Since stealth depletion TR don't have so much stealth as before so i think this feat should be changed on 5%/10%/20% shorter control effect on TR.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
I would really appreciate if it would be possible to see the collected data from this thread provided to the Devs by the TR's class advocate.
Thank you in advance.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
Sabo`s Feat - 'One with the Shadows' : when i used encounter in stealth let say Lashing Blade, sometime im out of stealth will fully stealth meter and sometime still in stealth with fully stealth meter.
thanks.
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low numbers indeed but they also dont do what the tooltip says: more damages the less charges you have.
i know it can be exploited so my solution is: buff hard the first shot, adjust as you feel the followings.
SHOCKING EXECUTION: if it hits for 10k crits (pvp/pve) i m usually amused. like...ehi really 10k? oh thanks!
want to avoid big numbers? let it be used with 25% AP and further adjust damage.
this would also give a sense to T2 executioner feat.
i have also the feeling that ratio damage/utility/cooldown is very wrong talking about encounters
( my opinion is that in PvP, powers should behave differently in order not to hinder PvE performance )
Feedback about latest changes currently on preview:
I wanted to ask a clarification about the new Sly Flourish: the 10% more incoming damage from broken armor, is it a reduction of Damage Resistance, the same kind of armor penetration?
I ask because the first time you said something like: "broken armor: the enemy receive 5% more damage from all sources" and it seemed a debuff of different kind than the usual Damage Resistance debuff
Like I said in a previous post, a different debuff from DR debuff would make TR more useful in a team:
with endgame PvE in mind, almost everyone has an adequate amount of armor penetration in order to achieve 24% damage resistance reduction and a debuff of this kind isn't much useful
(on the other hand it could be great while liveling)
Thanks for the changes to DF, it seems a bit more useful now!
More shift rolls are also a welcome change, they give more breathing room!
Feedback about MI Executioner
(just for reference my gs is 14.5)
Could you update First Strike tooltips or at least the description into powers' tab?
I find it difficult to realize if it is useful for executioner...
for example, it could be useful if the power resets
1) after X seconds, while refraining from attacking
2) after Y seconds no matter if you attack or not
where X should be something like 3-4 seconds and Y something like 20 seconds
I feel that Executioner's capstone, shadow of demise, is more difficult to use than those of saboteur and scoundrel paths
Executioner has the same difficulty of Scoundrel in regaining full stealth, but Scoundrel can use its capstone feat every 10 seconds, while Executioner is often able to use shadow of demise only once during a single combat...
this is due to the fact that when you are visible and you get hit (with stealth meter not full), regeneration of stealth halts and the meter goes down
I know this behavior has always been present with TR, but this problem wasn't present with previous Executioner's capstone (Overrun critical) since it didn't involve stealth
I'll let you know if the changes you announced for the next update will be of help in this matter, but I think this behaviour will still be too harmful towards TRs ... really, no other class has such punishments for receiving damage
(attention, I'm not talking about stealth depletion while taking damage in stealth mode, that makes sense)
with ITC immunity removal it just became more obvious
Executioner's damage (I tried getting all of the feats from exec. tree except devastating shroud and exposed weakness) seems in the right direction
I can solo medium heroic encounters in dwarven valley
( the setup I mostly used:
path of the blade, dazing strike and lashing blade
first strike, skillful infiltrator
duelist's flurry, cloud of steel
courage breaker, whirlwind of blades )
I had problems with the mini dungeon's boss in the tiamat campaign area (I remember having a tough time even with scoundrel)
knife trowers and other monsters can still target through stealth
as a constant and avid NWO player since beta opening, I'd like to bring back on the right track this thread with some personal feedback contribution. I'll anticipate that my feedback comes from more than a year and a half of playing the TR class as my first and most liked one and having played extensively pretty much every other class (excluding GF), which is helpful to compare the different gameplay styles; also, as an old PnP RpG player, I'd like to maintain a reference to the "Dungeons and Dragons" game which boldly appears in the first loading screen every time we log in Neverwinter Online.
General Feedback on the class:
Rogues are cunning and elusive adversaries. Rogues slip into and out of shadows on a whim, pass anywhere across the field of battle without fear of reprisal, and appear suddenly only to drive home a lethal blade.
While the idea of a class based on cunning gameplay and elusiveness is probably one of the reason for many TR players to have chosen this class, the direction taken by NW's gameplay effectively hinders to uselessness any attempt to play a TR without using some "FotM" meta, possibly counterintuitive but effective in handling with PvE and PvP threats. Permastealthing has been for a long time the solution, allowing TRs to endure the overwhelming damage received by every kind of external source, i.e. PvE adds, bosses and PvP enemies. As far as I am afraid of, we are looking at a switch to another boring and meta mechanic based on stunlocking in substitution to permastealthing.
Permastealth has now become a feasible feature, disabling the effectiveness of dagger tossing/bilethorn combo and forcing the TR in a heavy melee style that balances the scales in PvP (risk vs. reward of more burst damage vs. retaliation/CC effects on a fragile class) and representing only one of the viable PvE builds among different choices made available with the latest changes. The ranged drift that TR has to endure is forced by inefficient survival tools, non existence of any kind of "reflex saves" which give the PnP Trickster Rogue the ability to "pass anywhere across the field of battle without fear of reprisal" and lackluster implementation of melee powers. TR melee at-wills are possibly the most awful powers among at-wills of every other class, competing only with GWF ones. This is because every ranged at will autolocks the target, while melee at wills (many, not all) have an erratic way of hitting due to range, positioning, hit angle, connection latency and internal server lag. This is why Sly Flourish has always been shunned in favor of Duelist Flurry, even if it should represent the dexterous rain of blows of which a nimble class like a TR should be allowed to land; the advantage of target locking during the third strike, in addiction to a CC immunity frame have put this clunky and counterintuitive at-will at the top of TR player's arsenal. Not to mention that Duelist Flurry does not even exist as an at-will or encounter in Dungeons and Dragon's Trickster Rogue.
The Trickster Rogue should be a planner, a small battlefield tactician able to exploit the chaos in a fight to hinder and possibly take out the heaviest opponents, while offering support with trickery and deceit (translated in crowd control effects and aggro shifts). While this possibility is still partially available to Whisperknives due to the ranged autolocking mechanic, allowing them to focus on a specific target, every Master Infiltrator knows well how frustrating is running behind 200% movement speed adds in PvE that fling themselves around like crazed pinballs or being completely unable to hit anything in movement in PvP. At-wills should be bread and butter powers between the occurrence of having an encounter or a daily available; with the current melee mechanic, every melee class is dramatically hindered.
Conclusion: there can't be any way to have an efficient melee class (heavy hitter, ambusher, tank, you name it), without a rework of all melee powers target locking in a reasonable range. Relating specifically to the TR class, in order to achieve that "cunning sneak" archetype there has to be implemented an internal class resistance to CC in accordance with the reflex save existing in PnP Dungeons and Dragons to balance effectively the intrinsic great weaknesses of low damage mitigation, low achievable levels of deflection for effective DPS builds and scarce (Master infiltrator) to almost non existant (Whisperknife) CC immunities or resistances. No rework in this sense will obviously force the Whisperknife choice over Master Infiltrator due to an inefficient mechanic system, while both paragon paths should be equally viable and fun to play.
Specific considerations on ability scores:
I won't repeat what has been frequently pointed out by many other feedback contributors about the questionable logic behind ability bonuses for the TR class, but refer to Dungeons and Dragons in order to shine some light on it. In order of relevance and importance, Dexterity as the main class ability for TRs deserves a special insight.
Dexterity (Dex) measures hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance.
✦ Ranged basic attacks are based on Dexterity.
✦ Many ranger and rogue powers are based on Dexterity.
✦ Your Dexterity might contribute to your Reflex defense.
✦ If you wear light armor, your Dexterity might con- tribute to your Armor Class.
✦ Dexterity is the key ability for Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery skill checks.
As we can all see, dexterity should grant a flat bonus on powers, a reflexive protection and a contribution to damage mitigation. In NWO this should be translated in flat damage % bonus, a CC resistance bonus and a way to reduce damage in form of flat damage reduction and/or a sensible bonus to deflection for every point over 10.
Due to the recent changes, the main stat of the class has no reason to be chosen over the secondary ones. It doesn't make great logical sense and is counterintuitive for both new and old players to call something "primary" while being effectively of little use in comparison to secondary or tertiary class abilities.
Strength (Str) measures your character’s physical power. It’s important for most characters who fight hand-to-hand.
Charisma (Cha) measures your force of personality, persuasiveness, and leadership.
Wisdom (Wis) measures your common sense, perception, self-discipline, and empathy. You use your Wisdom score to notice details, sense danger, and get a read on other people.
Intelligence (Int) describes how well your character learns and reasons.
Constitution (Con) represents your character’s health, stamina, and vital force. All characters benefit from a high Constitution score.
Relating to secondary and tertiary abilties, I would ask you to consider the main aspects of the TR class being mobility, elusiveness and conditional bonuses to DPS. Since the creation of NWO many mechanics have changed and the classes rework should take this into consideration, so my advice would be to focus on distributing secondary characteristics in line with the TR concept among the remaining ability bonuses. These secondary characteristic bonuses should be:
✦ bonus to combat advantage damage. Addictive and not multiplicative, in relation to the everlasting debate on how this bonus works toward increasing the base damage for the TR class.
✦ movement speed. Self explanatory on the "mobility" element of the class.
✦ AoE and CC resistance (innate). Possible NWO transliteration of the TR "reflex save" in the PnP version of the game. Take into consideration a bonus increase of 2% per point over 10 to make this class actually viable with the mechanics of the game.
✦ Deflection bonus. Also needed to allow a certain survivability of the class.
✦ Stamina recharge speed. Also related to the "mobility" element.
✦ Flat damage bonus. For more DPS oriented builds.
✦ Powers recharge speed and Action Point gain speed. Due to the very long cooldowns of most TR encounters and a really hard way to build AP to effectively use daily powers.
After long thinking and testing, I'd consider to balance a reasonable distribution of the aforementioned bonuses keeping out of the equation two outdated ones:
✦ Critical chance % bonus. With the new 100% critical hits in stealth mechanic, an ability bonus to critical chance is redundant. Through equipment it's normal to have a 30% critical chance out of stealth and 100% during stealth, which is in my opinion reasonable enough.
✦ Resistance ignored. It's not hard for a TR to achieve a -25% resistance ignored through equipment and every other reduction of target's mitigation should be obtained through use of active powers or specific feats. Sly Flourish new effect, Wicked Reminder and the new piercing damage mechanic are enough to adapt TR's gameplay against very tough and resilient targets.
Obviously an optimal distribution should take into consideration Strength and Charisma as TR's secondary abilities, leaving less in-line bonuses as hit points or CC bonuses to tertiary abilities such as constitution, intelligence and wisdom.
Feedback on Trickster Rogue Powers:
The following considerations take in account my experience with the Master Infiltrator paragon path and are by choice not based on theorycrafting or class meta building but just on an extensive "feel" through sessions of solo PvE, instanced group PvE and open world PvP in PTS. I will also loosely consider the equivalent powers in the PnP 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons version (where possible), in order to keep a correspondence between the actual TR class in NWO and the archetype on which it's based upon.
Cloud of Steel: steady short-medium ranged DPS, pretty much a DPS gap filler with the most updated version. The advertised changes taking place soon could give it a bit more sting but not too much, which is consistent with small daggers thrown out when it's not possible to use the class main weapons. Interesting note: in the PnP version it's a small blast attack, meaning it has a little AoE and giving it the reason to be called "cloud of steel".
Sly Flourish: what should be the main TR attack, mixing mobility with agile and fast aimed hits. Sadly considered a lesser at-will due to game metas such as low melee chance to hit against moving targets due to poor melee target locking mechanic, lack of CC frames in comparison to Duelist Flurry and no specific advantage, at least till the recent changes. What makes of SF the underdog among TR at-wills is the lack of short range target locking (in the order of 2-3 ft), which would give it a reason to be a choice for its decent damage and 4th swing party bonus. All ranged powers lock targets and many melee at-wills too (DF during third phase, HR's Aimed Strike, SW's Hand of Blight won't miss melee attacks but switch to ranged if target has moved out of melee reach...), so it would be advisable to put on par melee classes reworking the hitting randomness of many melee powers.
Dazing Strike: as an AoE dazing power with a fast activation time, DS has gained a lot of potential and will be definitely used a lot more than before. It could do even better (especially for learning players) with a contextual flashing template to help defining the area hit by the power.
Deft Strike: originally a gap closer at-will, it has become an encounter power after an early revision. The increase of duration and effect of slow effect are welcome, but its damage and recharge rate are too underwhelming to make it shine. An increase of damage to make this power a medium hitter or a cooldown reduction to grant more utility would probably give it a reason to be used more than it's used now.
Lashing Blade: this encounter has seen his highs and lows, being now in a questionable state. Due to enchantment metas it has "shone" as an one-shotter, but it was never the encounter to be overpowered in the beginning. Due to its long cooldown, its damage in PvE is a bit lackluster. In PvP it's true that it could be enhanced a lot by clever use of class features and feats to gain a high burst bonus, but since open beta there have been a few additions to be taken in consideration. Fox cunning, Prophetic Action, Tenacity, Barkshield enchantment and quite a number of feats work against initial and sudden bust damage, making "heavy hit out of stealth" builds quite underperforming (not counting how dodgeable this power is to begin with). With all these elements taken in consideration, I don't have many good words for Lashing; there is not even a power like this in PnP Dungeons and Dragons, so it's even harder to find a place for it if not in the most naive builds as it is now. A reduction of the long cooldown in line with similar heavy hitters (I'm thinking of IBS) could give it reason to be taken into consideration.
Lurker Assault: once it was "10 seconds of DPS glory", now it's a barely noticeable DPS bonus shadowed by effective burst damage and utility effect given by other dailies. With all the changes taking place and the development of the game in this year and a half, this daily is badly underperforming as it is now. Considering the way stealth works now, it could be reasonable to stop stealth depletion from at-wills during the active time of this daily. No way to compare it with PnP D&D, as this power doesn't exist there.
Whirlwind of Blades: great burst damage, nice bonus, definitely a wise choice for every TR power tray.
Bait and Switch: changes cannot be tested still, but a taunting dummy could be very useful to low GS players. High content threats eat through the dummy in less than a fraction of second, giving it the sole role of an AP piñata and stealth refiller. In PnP D&D it works in such different ways to be altogether a different power, so any comparison is quite pointless.
Duelist Flurry: the last changes have given DF a responsiveness much more in line with what a TR power should be. Its use negates completely any chance to keep the smallest pip of stealth due to the huge amount of small hits counted towards the number of at-wills draining stealth, but its damage compensates well enough the loss of critical hits out of stealth on the long term. During trash mob melting in instanced party runs, it's hard to make it shine due to the very short survivability of even the most tough adds. I didn't test DF in PvP so I can only imagine that it will definitely be easier to land one out of stealth due to the faster activation time, but every landing of the flurry component is equivalent to losing a stealth bar. It will be probably more useful for scoundrels, paired with a clever use of dazes, but harder to use against everyone other than the most stationary and clueless opponents. I'd like to reiterate that this last part is not a feedback, but only a theoretical consideration.
Blitz:this encounter shines for its DPS output, especially when thrown from stealth against a bunch of adds. The utility debuff is not very discernible, but this encounter is definitely worthy to be slotted DPS wise.
Path of the Blade: uptime increased, making this encounter a steady and flat DPS bonus. Damage split among maximum 3 targets for 33% of the original damage, meaning 0% loss against 3 targets, 33% loss against 2, 66% against 1. Even with this huge decrease in 1vs1 situations, it doesn't proc enchantments as AoEs centered on self in any other class do (Steal Time, for example, procs for a whole lots of hits with a powerful CC and a good burst damage at the end, as pretty much any other self centered AoE power). The animation has always been horribly slow and the crucifixed position of the character using this power fits perfectly with the player thoughts of "please don't nuke/CC me to death while I wait here for PotB to activate!". I found little to no reason to use this power in pretty much any context right now.
Impossible to Catch: the loss of immunity frames through use of this power out of stealth changes heavily the way a TR has to struggle to survive. Even with the Damage Reduction bonus, it makes little difference when hit by huge damaging AoEs or a barrage of 65 level adds hits in PvE and grants maybe a full second or two more before being melted anyways. As many have already said before, this is a heavy hit against TR survivability if not paired with a relevant increase of innate defenses to cope with incoming damage. If, and only if, TRs could be granted better chances to survive, I would even see as a good change the loss of 100% deflect chance from ItC while making it a charged power with a "break from CC" effect. This would push the class towards a more versatile and fast paced gameplay, without the need to implement those immunity frames that are generally frowned upon. In PnP ItC grants true invisibility, so I'd say that any thoughts about that are better left alone.
Impact Shot: even after a damage buff, IS doesn't really do this great damage and has only a small CC effect from stealth. It could be valuable in synergy with dazes granted by feats but it's still underperforming when compared to many other powers available to the TR. As a striker class, IMHO the TR should be given some consideration towards increasing damage with peace of mind. Adds have become very tough and all the other classes have gained a lot in terms of damage resistance; giving some real DPS to a charged encounter with a medium range could help to improve a bit the sorry state of TR's lousy striker role.
Gloaming Cut: even after the last damage reduction, GC retains its usefulness as the single and only at-will not draining stealth at the cost of a very clumsy animation and a quite static gameplay in PvE, and even more in PvP. As its concept should be, GC takes the role of the slow heavy hitter at-will in the MI TR arsenal with the additional utility to circumvent the dramatic loss of stealth with the most recent changes. In terms of DPS output, it had found a niche in the MI arsenal while in groups and kepts being hard to effectively use in PvP; the recent 15% (or more?) damage reduction was IMHO not needed, for its slow and cumbersome heavy hitting deserved at least a decent damage to compensate.
Courage Breaker: a single target debuffing daily with a damage that got a small improvement, having pretty much the same utility it had before. It could do with some rework regarding damage or duration of the debuff. Still I never understood why, among classes that use magic or hulking behemoths with 8 ft double-handed swords, a trickster should be the one to let an enemy cower in fright. This daily doesn't exist in PnP D&D and there would have been lots of better alternatives for a 40 level daily, but probably TRs will have to work with what they have.
Shadow Strike: the holy grail of replenishing stealth, no damage to speak of, awfully slow and bugged animation while the player community is seeing lots of changes toward making powers more responsive and fun to play. Stealth has become more a "blink out-blink back" through use of any at-will and encounter available to the class, so it should be noted that the painfully slow throw of that shadowy dagger is dramatically opposite to what a power of a nimble class should be. Making this game more fast paced for everyone is a good way to make it more fun and I think there is no reason to keep SS as it was since beta in fear of TRs not giving enough time frames to be targeted and efficiently countered.
Wicked Reminder: less stacks to apply for a full debuff equivalent to what it was before changes and the damage bonus are definitely a great improvement, but the activation time seems quite slow for one of the powers with the shortest cooldown in the TR arsenal.
Smoke Bomb: adding damage to an almost excellent utility AoE power could really give SB a comfy place on the power tray, but still there is too little info about the DPS output to say more. The stun effect has always been delayed in regards of the activation time of the bomb, causing most of the strange behaviors of adds caught in the AoE. Elimination of that gap between power use and effect application would be a very welcome change.
Shocking Execution: as for many other 50 level dailies in other classes, I feel that the capstone daily for MI TRs is definitely underperforming. Add the clumsy animation, which could still have been acceptable when NWO hit beta, the really low damage for a daily with no utility effects that and the relative ease of being avoided gives it at most a niche in PvP against high mitigation targets with resistance and regeneration buffs at low hit points, while totally pointless in PvE. As for many other paragon paths dailies, Shocking Execution could do with a general restyle to be slottable once again.
Thanks for your patience in reading this post and i hope that the feedback the developers are receiving will help with making every class fun and intriguing to play, TR included. Please abstain from commenting and help moderators to keep this thread clean.
Knife throwers don't target, they use an AoE attack when aggroed by anything, which will simply hit you if you're in range of it, stealthed or not. If they never see you, they won't use it at all, but they'll use that attack on other players and hit you, use it while you're entering stealth and it'll hit you, etc. This is working as intended.
Many newer bosses are immune to stealth. This is also working as intended.
Neverwinter Census 2017
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No, you can clearly see knife trowers turn around if you move around them, and that means it's a targeted attack... the fact that it's even AoE is something else
The same behaviour is shown by wight casters... they trow a projectile which follows you, it doesn't go straight like an AoE would (see TR's blitz for reference)
And I wasn't talking about bosses when referring to others that can see through stealth, but I meant simple mobs
( I still don't get why people other than devs continue replying )
Yep it happened, i think it's because 'one with the shadows' got built in delay. This situation is more likely happened when you use encounter skill with stealth meter bellow 25%. On the other hand, it also count as advantage because re-entering stealth further reduce your encounter cooldown via shady preparation.
Edit: Shadowy opportunity is working as intended after respec
Is it just me or Cloud of steel doesn't have bonus damage per stack anymore?
I have encountered this problem also and timed how it happens.
For the first three second after entering stealth even if you are out of range of monsters, if you come within range they will rush in your direction and ranged ones will attack.
Right now it does not but it's getting some stacking damage back. See dev tracker for details.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Class Features
Feats
Buffing Stats
The reason I've pointed out this exploit specifically is because it ties directly into survivability out of stealth. Since the developers have decided to rework stealth to be a "quick burst in power that rewards smart play to confuse foes", the question becomes what TRs should do once out of stealth. This is based on the assumption that the target is not dead once a TR's stealth has expired, which is most often the case (and quite rightfully so). Gaining extra dodges has added a degree of maneuverability we were sorely lacking, but sadly it is nowhere near enough. Setting aside the whole D&D rule-set (because let's face it NWN barely uses D&D rules as guidelines) Trickster Rogues should be agile, lightning-quick strikers who have the ability to catch up to any target, whether ranged or melee. As it stands, any other class, provided they're utilizing their utility slots efficiently can play keep away from a TR for as long as they wish. It is not a matter of encounters or using the Shift key, I'm referring to just plain old running. This frustrating aspect of the game is eclipsed by the fact that a melee class wearing plate mail armor and carrying a massive two-handed sword has the ability to catch up to me without breaking too much of a sweat!
This is where Dexterity should come in, as that is its main function. Improving agility, running speed, reflexes (in this case deflection) are all the hallmarks of the Dexterity attribute. I do not want the TR to become like the HR, with some builds so tanky and over-geared I've seen several in-game who can annihilate entire enemy teams. A TR should be able to stay on-target, provided they possess the skill and presence of mind to correctly judge their opponent's intentions and react accordingly. A TR should not have to rely on a ranged ability like CoS for sheer damage output because their target is being too elusive. The only other class that has the type of agility and cat-like reflexes TRs claim to possess is the HR, making an encounter between the two a deadly dance. A GWF on the other hand has no business moving as fast as a TR does, nor do any of the other classes for that matter. I whole-heartedly support the idea of an attribute tweak wherein these concerns can be addressed. As it stands we have gained quite a few powerful abilities in the offensive department, but the core issue of defensive capabilities available to the TR remains unaddressed.
P.S.
Please, please, please fix shadow strike for the love of God. There's nothing quite as frustrating as having it go on CD without any discernible effect whatsoever.
- SCOUNDREL: MI-WK - they all do their job. Some feats are way underperforming tho, Life steal and deflect feats are not worth.
you always go take the CDR ones in sabo.
- SABO: PERFECT. Probably the cooldown reductions feats can see some love. 10% is really low, still notificable but very very low.
- EXECUTIONER: i still dont see a reason for this path to exist. However it can be liked by some masochists. No survivability no stealth, feat working just around stealth... no seriously i dont like it at all. T2 feats useless 100%.
Shadow of demise should proc from every source of damage: like it was on release without auto-refreshing
-SURVIVABILITY: it does not exist. you out of stealth? you dead without any "maybe if" . A trapper ranger can easily 2 shots you.
-NO CLASS MECHANICS: we are the only class without one.... maybe something like receaving and dealing damage gives you a stacks of "you now are less squishy" which give you 1% deflect up to 15%?
- SWIFT FOOTWORK: seems bugged in a "not working at all" sense.
- SKILLS: shocking and impact shot can see some love...a big love. Suggestions: slightly increase damage of shocking and lower the AP needed.
About Impact shot: do as you please it cant be worst than now. BUG: recharge is not affected by INT and recovery.
Still dont understand the reduced damage: GF griffon has 3x charges. Each one hits for 15k. What's the difference?
Shadow strike: would love a speed up in the animation. When i need stealth i cant wait for 1.5-2 sec of animation.
it's still bugged too. IF the enemy go out on range during the animation the skill goes in cooldown without doing damage (xD) and without refilling stealth
deft strike: need 4-5 seconds cooldown no more
- STEALTH; i m getting used to depletion but i think it can be prolonged of about 1.5s-2s. % of depletion is still the same so it would not affect damage output of unfairness in pvp. It just give some breath more at the cost of a dps loss.
Indeed switching to not stealth base gears feels too much punishing.
BUG: we can be focused/followed in stealth by using command lines.
New changes should be absolutely focused on survivability and in lowering very high cooldowns damage .
Asking for higher damage ( excluding the 2 above ) will just lead to nerf for crying... i know that.
It's not like they are high now but still, it will happen.
So let's just focus on what we have been given and in order to do this, we need to be able to live more out of stealth
Combat advantage clarification:
is this still the formula?
Combat Advantage Damage = AbilitiesDamage*(1+0.15*(1+StatBonus))
CONCLUSION: regardless buffs, which are always appreciated. we are meatball, squishier than CW, SW, HR and not even remotely comparable with the other melee in game in tankiness and cooldown managment,. Would you like to address these in the next build?
I used stealth when it was up (during final flurry of blows).
With Strength belt:
Total Damage in 1 min: 1,078,000. EncDmg was 15,947.
With Dexterity belt:
Total Damage in 1 min: 1,056,000. EncDmg was 13,664.
Crit Damage percent for both was 34%.
the FhitCrit% for dexterity was 3% higher (I am not sure what that means).
I tested it multiple times, and it seemed the damage was almost the same every time.
it's the slowest thing in game. Just realized after 5 hours testing today
My suggestion is the make dagger threat allow for ranger dagger attacks to be utilized while moving, much like VP is now on test.
I like your suggestion what worries me is that the moment we pop out of stealth and inside CW or HR (every dominion match have 2-3 of this class) range TR is dead before he can gap the distance, GWF and GF also have gap close accompanied by either stun or prone.
I suggested this before but looks like this will not happen because for sure a lot of melee class will complain, probably with reduced movement speed while attacking this might happen.
SW = run faster than a mount (shift key)
GWF = run faster than a mount (sprint)
TR = has to slot 2 class features and hit tab to obtain the maximum speed bonus, and still is slower than the above two listed classes
Also if you slot speed class features with TR you can kiss your ability to use stealth goodbye in mod 5, unless you are saboteur.
You have removed one of our speed feats from saboteur path in mod 5, please compensate the TR class with more speed based on our dexterity. (18 dexterity = 10%mobility = optimal)
If EXEs sacrifice stealth, do that means something more rewarding. They're called Executioners after all.
Maybe create some feat that procs with LB too. Cooldown and dmg.
And make Shocking Execution something more than a bad joke.
About the speed run, you can also take Skullcracker wich give you 25% more speed.
After some test, Saboteur and Scoundrel seems to be interesting, and offer us 2 different gameplay.
But, about the Executioner path... I try it and it's really boring to play...