Prior to these changes, while the "stealth depletion on damage" was a very difficult and annoying thing to cope with as a TR, at the same time it was one of the few effective tactics for the other classes to fight a TR in stealth. Be it a wild swing of their sword, a guesswork of AoEs fired off, or just by plain luck, a hit on the TR would shorten the stealth duration and make it worthwhile for the sacrifices and risk the other classes made in order to turn the tide of the battle in their favor. If they couldn't do that at all, every single fight would be massively in favor of any perma build, which solely relies on the protection of stealth while laying down damage.
Hence, under those conditions things were roughly equal, as the opponent would have to face TRs in stealth, and suffer under a very long duration where the initiative and flow of combat was totally dictated by the TR. On the other hand, an untimely incoming hit would screw the rotation for the TR and it was very possible things would turn drastically cascade downhill for the TR, because of one single hit coming in.
...
It wasn't until the bullshi* amounts of crazy DoT damage coming from broken OP classes like the HR, a class that can not only withstand the attacks from stealth easily, but also given any opportunity would rip to shreds any stealth attempt (and doing crazy amounts of damage at the same time), that this fragile balance began to break up. That, and the frickin' cheese builds from skill-less TRs using PotB to just shave off any stealth from the TR vs TR equation.
But even when such things are considered, for the other classes, CWs, SWs, DCs, GFs etc.. etc.. hitting a TR in stealth is still one of the few viable tactics to be used against a TR in stealth. It's not something we can openly ask for without thinking balance as a whole -- not just by thinking how fun and cool and useful it would be to TRs exclusively.
I actually agree with most of what was said here. However, I really don't see how stealth refilling naturally unhindered by damage WHILE OUT OF STEALTH affects any of that. Even if you take twilight adept into consideration someone would have at least 5 seconds to either catch a TR during his vulnerability window or afflict him with DOTS that would eat his stealth once he did re-stealth. That's all assuming the TR had full stamina to begin with, because stealth is not damage immunity and the chances are high in either PVE or PVP that the TR is going to be forced to use dodges to avoid aoes or reposition while in stealth.
Hence, the developers, whether it be from purposeful design or pure accident, managed to come up with a compromise point where they finally make it possible for us to remain IMMUNE to damage to stealth -- at the small, modest price of trading in one class feature to another...
If anything sounds broken or OP it is this, since it affects a rogue in stealth or out. Also this is entirely dependent on both gear and obscure information. Can we pretend to care about new players or casual players at least once? I for one do not want to be in the position of being a member of the class where the difference between the haves and have-nots is so brutal, it's bad enough as it is.
More to the point dots and stealth damage is key in long winded drawn out battles. Based on my first impression of the new PVP relative balance between classes, I'm not sure this is really going to happen as often.
For example using a bile enchant + dot based aoe attacks might not help a CW much if he then lacks the CC and burst to catch and heavily damage the TR when the opportunity presents itself and the TR shreds him with heavy hits.
Personally, I'm not sure I'm going to be slotting TC in PVP to begin with. Flurry is what made me need it, and gloaming is so sexy with sneak attack + skillful infiltrator.
I agree with Kwessa and my own feedback agrees with him.
You guys are asking for way too much. There will be far too few ways to even combat rogues. Even with the at will drains. With how much damage we're doing, wouldnt barely use them from stealth anyway.
We are making a slight change to stealth depletion from damage as a QoL change, and to remove the disproportionate penalty applied by having a damage over time effect on you.
Trickster Rogue: Stealth: Stealth depletion from damage is now directly related to how much damage the target deals. You lose an amount equal to the percent of HP that you lose in the attack.
This means that small hits will still block stealth regeneration for 3 seconds, but will no longer rapidly drain out the entire meter. This also conversely means that major hits and massive damage will drain far larger chunks of the meter than the previously did.
This won't be in today's preview push, but will be in for next week.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
We are making a slight change to stealth depletion from damage as a QoL change, and to remove the disproportionate penalty applied by having a damage over time effect on you.
Trickster Rogue: Stealth: Stealth depletion from damage is now directly related to how much damage the target deals. You lose an amount equal to the percent of HP that you lose in the attack.
This means that small hits will still block stealth regeneration for 3 seconds, but will no longer rapidly drain out the entire meter. This also conversely means that major hits and massive damage will drain far larger chunks of the meter than the previously did.
This won't be in today's preview push, but will be in for next week.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Sounds like a step in the right direction. Look forward to testing it out
............
................tenacius concilement my dear best friend ♥
Worst quality of life ever seen since release.
It would make more sense to refill the stealth upon damage taken.
And also whats the matter if it stops refilling? Should i see any difference in gameplay?
We are making a slight change to stealth depletion from damage as a QoL change, and to remove the disproportionate penalty applied by having a damage over time effect on you.
Trickster Rogue: Stealth: Stealth depletion from damage is now directly related to how much damage the target deals. You lose an amount equal to the percent of HP that you lose in the attack.
This means that small hits will still block stealth regeneration for 3 seconds, but will no longer rapidly drain out the entire meter. This also conversely means that major hits and massive damage will drain far larger chunks of the meter than the previously did.
This won't be in today's preview push, but will be in for next week.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
You should also block all dots from draining stealth then it would be fine.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
This also conversely means that major hits and massive damage will drain far larger chunks of the meter than the previously did.
To be honest, this sounds like punishment for the sin of being a TR on the battlefield with a bad guardian fighter (or several of them, or any other class with amazing dragon-spinning capabilities). No matter how much you try to make use of your agility, somebody is going to make sure you get a dragon tail in the face (or several of them).
The structure of heroic encounters means that this happens a lot more often than a wonderfully choreographed and controlled fight in which everyone performs their role smoothly and well.
I run pretty tanky TRs with gobs of hitpoints and decent deflection, so maybe it won't be as bad as I fear though.
blazious11Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 331Arc User
edited October 2014
It may fix the pvp problem, (I'm not sure about this), but I guess it won't really make a (positive) difference in PVE. May effect negatively in new HE-s and PVE content.
My story is truly a grand tale! Of course, any story about me is going to be grand simply by virtue of the main character.
I am not sure if I understand, this would basically mean that if you were under a dot that you would not be able to start regenerating stealth until 3 seconds after the last damage tick of the dot?
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shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
Doesn't feel like much of a QoL improvement, but then you didn't say it was an improvement just a change. The less stealth depletion from lower damage is good, the big depletion from higher damage is bad, so pretty much a zero sum gain. It's the inability to regen stealth when taking damage that is the problem for most TRs (3 seconds is a long time for someone to get another hit in to keep you unable to regen). Basically once you're out of stealth in a fight the only way back in is with a stealth refilling encounter. So no change there then.
I am not sure if I understand, this would basically mean that if you were under a dot that you would not be able to start regenerating stealth until 3 seconds after the last damage tick of the dot?
Yes, however, a dot, or many small hits isn't going to empty your stealth bar in a flash like it does now. Meaning in PVE you could potentially refill stealth by using GC + twilight adept and avoiding the big hits. Eager to test this, I actually like the idea that things like IBS and ice knife will rip out huge chunks of stealth, rogue on rogue combat should be...... more interesting as well.
what about path of the blade? it's a constant ticking aoe for 100 damage per sec on 3 targets and it's main purpose was just perma rogues. since the utility will soon be nonexistant.....does this mean it needs to be overhauled again?
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited October 2014
LOL imagine if the GWF lost determination while taking damage. As much sense as this makes.
This only forces you to need to slot shadow strike just to refill your meter in a fight.
The TR is the only class who's punished in a fight. DCs build divinity, GWFs build determination, GF can easily maintain their guard, TR cannot regen stealth:mad:
LOL imagine if the GWF lost determination while taking damage. As much sense as this makes.
This only forces you to need to slot shadow strike just to refill your meter in a fight.
The TR is the only class who's punished in a fight. DCs build divinity, GWFs build determination, GF can easily maintain their guard, TR cannot regen stealth:mad:
It seems this concept is hard to understand. This change brings zero
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
LOL imagine if the GWF lost determination while taking damage. As much sense as this makes.
GWFs don't get to build determination out of combat though, and it drains pretty quickly once combat is exited. Kind of the opposite problem.
(Not saying I'm thrilled with it, see an earlier post for my initial reaction. Just that they're not comparable. GWF needs to be actively in combat to access their tab at all, and it has been nerfed.)
GWFs don't get to build determination out of combat though, and it drains pretty quickly once combat is exited. Kind of the opposite problem.
(Not saying I'm thrilled with it, see an earlier post for my initial reaction. Just that they're not comparable. GWF needs to be actively in combat to access their tab at all, and it has been nerfed.)
What about cw getting their cooldowns on tab increased upon damage taken?
Yes, however, a dot, or many small hits isn't going to empty your stealth bar in a flash like it does now. Meaning in PVE you could potentially refill stealth by using GC + twilight adept and avoiding the big hits. Eager to test this, I actually like the idea that things like IBS and ice knife will rip out huge chunks of stealth, rogue on rogue combat should be...... more interesting as well.
I was thinking more in line of an executioner in PvP and that they could be pretty much neutralized by default and forced to slot SS (of course I guess they were forced to anyways). This just seems like it makes it easier for the perma stealth TR and more difficult for those that try to play the TR in the manner they intended for the paths. I can't use GC and with no improvement to SE and the nerf to ITC I was going to go WK anyways. I was trying to find justifications to choosing a path other than saboteur but I keep feeling like I am being herded to choose that and I hate playing a perma stealth rogue and as I was seeing less damage from the scoundrel than on live (I want to play scoundrel but I also want to contribute to groups too and I don't see that it offers enough). I still haven't had a chance to test the latest round of changes and hopefully there will be more later so it is yet uncertain.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
We are making a slight change to stealth depletion from damage as a QoL change, and to remove the disproportionate penalty applied by having a damage over time effect on you.
Trickster Rogue: Stealth: Stealth depletion from damage is now directly related to how much damage the target deals. You lose an amount equal to the percent of HP that you lose in the attack.
This means that small hits will still block stealth regeneration for 3 seconds, but will no longer rapidly drain out the entire meter. This also conversely means that major hits and massive damage will drain far larger chunks of the meter than the previously did.
This won't be in today's preview push, but will be in for next week.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Feedback:
Since you want this to take place.
Here is what I want.
When taking damage all CW and SW have a 5% chance of spell fail per hit stacking against them per hit taken.
Once the spell fail meter hits 100% the CW and SW cannot cast for 30 mins.
Sound ridiculous? Now you see how we feel...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited October 2014
You just suggest TR QoL becomes sub par to a third world country's QoL
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
We are making a slight change to stealth depletion from damage as a QoL change, and to remove the disproportionate penalty applied by having a damage over time effect on you.
Trickster Rogue: Stealth: Stealth depletion from damage is now directly related to how much damage the target deals. You lose an amount equal to the percent of HP that you lose in the attack.
This means that small hits will still block stealth regeneration for 3 seconds, but will no longer rapidly drain out the entire meter. This also conversely means that major hits and massive damage will drain far larger chunks of the meter than the previously did.
This won't be in today's preview push, but will be in for next week.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Why don't you give DC CW and SW a mana bar that has to regen.
Let our attacks stop their mana bar from regenerating for 3 seconds.
Let our attacks drain their mana in chunks based on our damage to them.
How about we go back in time to before 1:00 today and this post you showed us never happened.
Thanks
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Why don't you give DC CW and SW a mana bar that has to regen.
Let our attacks stop their mana bar from regenerating for 3 seconds.
Let our attacks drain their mana in chunks based on our damage to them.
How about we go back in time to before 1:00 today and this post you showed us never happened.
Thanks
Lets clarify something here. The stopping of stealth regen is something it *always* did. I didn't make any changes to that. Overall you will regenerate more stealth, especially if you can dodge major hits. Previously any hit would drain 10% of your stealth meter (before Tenacious). This change means that any small hit that does less than 10% of your HP will drain less than it did previously, with no change in regeneration uptime. This is a buff to stealth regen, not a nerf.
Feedback:
Since you want this to take place.
Here is what I want.
When taking damage all CW and SW have a 5% chance of spell fail per hit stacking against them per hit taken.
Once the spell fail meter hits 100% the CW and SW cannot cast for 30 mins.
Sound ridiculous? Now you see how we feel...
+1 for that
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Lets clarify something here. The stopping of stealth regen is something it *always* did. I didn't make any changes to that. Overall you will regenerate more stealth, especially if you can dodge major hits. Previously any hit would drain 10% of your stealth meter (before Tenacious). This change means that any small hit that does less than 10% of your HP will drain less than it did previously, with no change in regeneration uptime. This is a buff to stealth regen, not a nerf.
most hits are greater than 10% though (including deflected hits)
this change is more geared against dots which is primarily a pvp thng and most rogues won't use stealth a 2nd time without shadow strike anyways in pvp. like you said, that stealth won't regen the entire match in pvp unless people slot shadow strike and/or have tenacious + arty offhand.
Not a nerf. This change basically means that your stealth meter will deplete less from damage taken. Sounds like most noticeably in PvP, considering the current plaguefire/ flaming/ glyphs meta. I read this as 100% HP to 100% stealth meter. So if I take 50% of my max(?) HP as damage, my stealth meter would deplete 50%. But if I only take 2% HP as damage, I only lose 2% stealth meter. Which is a lot better than 10% for every hit taken, and allows us to mitigate damage to stealth meter with something other than tenacious concealment. I imagine damage to SM is equivalent to damage post mitigation?
Comments
I actually agree with most of what was said here. However, I really don't see how stealth refilling naturally unhindered by damage WHILE OUT OF STEALTH affects any of that. Even if you take twilight adept into consideration someone would have at least 5 seconds to either catch a TR during his vulnerability window or afflict him with DOTS that would eat his stealth once he did re-stealth. That's all assuming the TR had full stamina to begin with, because stealth is not damage immunity and the chances are high in either PVE or PVP that the TR is going to be forced to use dodges to avoid aoes or reposition while in stealth.
If anything sounds broken or OP it is this, since it affects a rogue in stealth or out. Also this is entirely dependent on both gear and obscure information. Can we pretend to care about new players or casual players at least once? I for one do not want to be in the position of being a member of the class where the difference between the haves and have-nots is so brutal, it's bad enough as it is.
More to the point dots and stealth damage is key in long winded drawn out battles. Based on my first impression of the new PVP relative balance between classes, I'm not sure this is really going to happen as often.
For example using a bile enchant + dot based aoe attacks might not help a CW much if he then lacks the CC and burst to catch and heavily damage the TR when the opportunity presents itself and the TR shreds him with heavy hits.
Personally, I'm not sure I'm going to be slotting TC in PVP to begin with. Flurry is what made me need it, and gloaming is so sexy with sneak attack + skillful infiltrator.
You guys are asking for way too much. There will be far too few ways to even combat rogues. Even with the at will drains. With how much damage we're doing, wouldnt barely use them from stealth anyway.
This means that small hits will still block stealth regeneration for 3 seconds, but will no longer rapidly drain out the entire meter. This also conversely means that major hits and massive damage will drain far larger chunks of the meter than the previously did.
This won't be in today's preview push, but will be in for next week.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Sounds like a step in the right direction. Look forward to testing it out
................tenacius concilement my dear best friend ♥
Worst quality of life ever seen since release.
It would make more sense to refill the stealth upon damage taken.
And also whats the matter if it stops refilling? Should i see any difference in gameplay?
You should also block all dots from draining stealth then it would be fine.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
To be honest, this sounds like punishment for the sin of being a TR on the battlefield with a bad guardian fighter (or several of them, or any other class with amazing dragon-spinning capabilities). No matter how much you try to make use of your agility, somebody is going to make sure you get a dragon tail in the face (or several of them).
The structure of heroic encounters means that this happens a lot more often than a wonderfully choreographed and controlled fight in which everyone performs their role smoothly and well.
I run pretty tanky TRs with gobs of hitpoints and decent deflection, so maybe it won't be as bad as I fear though.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Yes, however, a dot, or many small hits isn't going to empty your stealth bar in a flash like it does now. Meaning in PVE you could potentially refill stealth by using GC + twilight adept and avoiding the big hits. Eager to test this, I actually like the idea that things like IBS and ice knife will rip out huge chunks of stealth, rogue on rogue combat should be...... more interesting as well.
Can this be changed to 1 sec?
This only forces you to need to slot shadow strike just to refill your meter in a fight.
The TR is the only class who's punished in a fight. DCs build divinity, GWFs build determination, GF can easily maintain their guard, TR cannot regen stealth:mad:
It seems this concept is hard to understand. This change brings zero
GWFs don't get to build determination out of combat though, and it drains pretty quickly once combat is exited. Kind of the opposite problem.
(Not saying I'm thrilled with it, see an earlier post for my initial reaction. Just that they're not comparable. GWF needs to be actively in combat to access their tab at all, and it has been nerfed.)
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I was thinking more in line of an executioner in PvP and that they could be pretty much neutralized by default and forced to slot SS (of course I guess they were forced to anyways). This just seems like it makes it easier for the perma stealth TR and more difficult for those that try to play the TR in the manner they intended for the paths. I can't use GC and with no improvement to SE and the nerf to ITC I was going to go WK anyways. I was trying to find justifications to choosing a path other than saboteur but I keep feeling like I am being herded to choose that and I hate playing a perma stealth rogue and as I was seeing less damage from the scoundrel than on live (I want to play scoundrel but I also want to contribute to groups too and I don't see that it offers enough). I still haven't had a chance to test the latest round of changes and hopefully there will be more later so it is yet uncertain.
Feedback:
Since you want this to take place.
Here is what I want.
When taking damage all CW and SW have a 5% chance of spell fail per hit stacking against them per hit taken.
Once the spell fail meter hits 100% the CW and SW cannot cast for 30 mins.
Sound ridiculous? Now you see how we feel...
Why don't you give DC CW and SW a mana bar that has to regen.
Let our attacks stop their mana bar from regenerating for 3 seconds.
Let our attacks drain their mana in chunks based on our damage to them.
How about we go back in time to before 1:00 today and this post you showed us never happened.
Thanks
Lets clarify something here. The stopping of stealth regen is something it *always* did. I didn't make any changes to that. Overall you will regenerate more stealth, especially if you can dodge major hits. Previously any hit would drain 10% of your stealth meter (before Tenacious). This change means that any small hit that does less than 10% of your HP will drain less than it did previously, with no change in regeneration uptime. This is a buff to stealth regen, not a nerf.
+1 for that
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
most hits are greater than 10% though (including deflected hits)
this change is more geared against dots which is primarily a pvp thng and most rogues won't use stealth a 2nd time without shadow strike anyways in pvp. like you said, that stealth won't regen the entire match in pvp unless people slot shadow strike and/or have tenacious + arty offhand.
this actually might be a nerf
This change isn't in this week's patch.