No,
they said that they intended to make it more complicated for staying perma. There is no "damage" perma build. There never was. Not in vanilla/mod1 (didn't play any premades in this mod so dunno the meta), mod2 (semi-perma with IS), mod3 (HR disable full-perma) or mod4 (passive full-perma; pugstomping semi-perma glyph build [still bns&ss but bi instead of pvpt2]).
The only full-perma damage build that is existing is on the ptr from mod5.
And with the new feats a full-perma doesn't even need SS and BnS. The old full-perma had to use ITC, BnS and SS. So the only damage source was at-will attacks. Also DF is one of the most hardest at-wills to land properly and if they keep doing what they are doing it will become the next meatball.
But right now (on ptr) it is retardedly easy to maintain perma with a incredible high amount of damage (i.e. unmitigatable damage wohoo... that's how we roll, aight?!) and addition encounter damage source. If they want to get rid of perma they've to tweak the feats and not add stealth depletion.
imho. premade pvp & meta builds (bis) related only.
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OK, the Tenacious Concealment thing with the OH weapon is cute, but requiring an artifact OH and a passive power to function is not good design. Period. It's a bandaid on what has been a terrible idea from the start. You can at least do it from green, thankfully, but the concept of having two things have to be perma-set for the sake of being able to use a fundamental part of the class without using a specific setup is just ridiculous.
So, yes, Tenacious Concealment and the TC OH keep you from losing stealth, but you still don't regen it if you take hits. Yes, yes, the dodge roll feat. Oh wait, I didn't take that one because I had better feats to take because I'm not a perma. Funny how this was never an issue before the stealth drain on at-wills. It's pointless in PvE. If that isn't going to go away or be massively reduced like it needs to be for PvE, then the Tenacious Concealment thing needs to be re-thought and reworked and stealth needs to just plain regenerate while you're out of it.
Having to be locked into:
Tenacious Concealment instead of something more fun
A specific artifact OH effect
A specific build type and playstyle
just to make effective use of something that should be usable, period, is absolutely unacceptable. The iffiness of refilling was fine before when you knew you were going to get plenty out of it when it came back. Get off some attacks, get into a better position, etc, but now that it's a one-and-done prospect, the time and effort it takes to make it usable is insane.
Things I'd rather be running than Tenacious Concealment + whatever:
First Strike + Skillful Infiltrator
Skillful Infiltrator + Sneak Attack
Sneak Attack + Invisible Infiltrator
First Strike + Invisible Infiltrator
Etc.
All of these are infinitely more fun than 'whoops, have to use the One True Loadout to have any use out of stealth'. No thanks.
Basically, all of this is just forcing me to go for a perma-style build to actually use my class features and my actual paragon feats. This was all supposed to be for the purpose of killing Permastealth, not making it both simpler and required.
The at-will changes sound good, but I of course reserve judgment until I actually get to use them in practice. We'll see if the DF speed up is enough to make it worth it again without its feat support.
Largely inactive, playing Skyforge as Nai Calus.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Hey all, we are making some pretty big changes to at wills to make them feel better overall since they are much more difficult to use from stealth. We wanted each of them to fill a unique role in your kit and we have differentiated them more strongly to reflect that.
Cloud of Steel: This power no longer has charges and activates slightly slower.
Cloud of Steel: This power now deals 10% more damage.
Duelist's Flurry: This power now activates faster.
Duelist's Flurry: The bleed from Duelist's flurry now deals 20% more damage.
Sly Flourish: The damage on this power now better reflects the activate time of each hit. The damage of the second, third, and final hits have all been increased.
Sly Flourish: The final hit of this combo now applies Broken Armor for 6 seconds. Broken Armor causes targets to take 5% more damage from all sources.
Gloaming Cut: Base damage of this power has been reduced by roughly 15%. In live server my gloaming has a base damage of 2900, in current preview my gloaming has 2300 base damage, you are going to lower the damage by 15% more? that means gloaming will be the same damage as level 3 wicked reminder 1700-2000. )(Can you explain why you are nerfing it?) Yes i know there will be an artifact weapon to add + 15% damage to gloaming but seriously?
Additionally we have made a couple bug fixes and QoL changes as well.
Concussive Strikes: This feat will no longer daze the rogue in rare cases.
One with the Shadows: Can no longer be wasted by triggering from Shadow Strike.
Dodge: Dodging now correctly costs 30 stamina. It also is no longer unlimited while Stealthed.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
feedback listed in blue and red above
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I haven't checked base numbers between live and test but in actual play the GC on test hits like a truck. On live I used it in turn the other night and was hiring between 9 and 13k. On test it quickly ramped into mid teens with 40k as an extreme. I can easily imagine on a rebuffed boss hiring 60k or more with GC .
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
I haven't checked base numbers between live and test but in actual play the GC on test hits like a truck. On live I used it in turn the other night and was hiring between 9 and 13k. On test it quickly ramped into mid teens with 40k as an extreme. I can easily imagine on a rebuffed boss hiring 60k or more with GC .
I am speaking from my own exp.
Gloaming on live as is on a target with more than 50% hp hits the same amount of damage as two hits from sly flourish.
more important is that one gloaming strike in attack time is the same as two sly flourish attacks.
Everything seemed fine to me.
Now sly flourish gets boosted damage and gloaming gets nerfed.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited October 2014
But you do need to view it from the perspective that GC is the only at-will that will not drain stealth (and will still refill it when feated), and it's getting the big buff to the damage as target health diminishes.
But you do need to view it from the perspective that GC is the only at-will that will not drain stealth (and will still refill it when feated), and it's getting the big buff to the damage as target health diminishes.
It is not existing within a nerf vacuum.
that is if we go for sab path....
What if I want executioner
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited October 2014
My original TR's GC build is primarily executioner but uses feated GC. The stealth refill is achievable with just a dip into sab while still taking the exec capstone.
OK, the Tenacious Concealment thing with the OH weapon is cute, but requiring an artifact OH and a passive power to function is not good design. Period. It's a bandaid on what has been a terrible idea from the start. You can at least do it from green, thankfully, but the concept of having two things have to be perma-set for the sake of being able to use a fundamental part of the class without using a specific setup is just ridiculous.
So, yes, Tenacious Concealment and the TC OH keep you from losing stealth, but you still don't regen it if you take hits. Yes, yes, the dodge roll feat. Oh wait, I didn't take that one because I had better feats to take because I'm not a perma. Funny how this was never an issue before the stealth drain on at-wills. It's pointless in PvE. If that isn't going to go away or be massively reduced like it needs to be for PvE, then the Tenacious Concealment thing needs to be re-thought and reworked and stealth needs to just plain regenerate while you're out of it.
Having to be locked into:
Tenacious Concealment instead of something more fun
A specific artifact OH effect
A specific build type and playstyle
just to make effective use of something that should be usable, period, is absolutely unacceptable. The iffiness of refilling was fine before when you knew you were going to get plenty out of it when it came back. Get off some attacks, get into a better position, etc, but now that it's a one-and-done prospect, the time and effort it takes to make it usable is insane.
This was going to be my counter-argument to kweassa as well. Yes it makes rogues a lot more viable however it basically means that we have to choose between Shadow Strike or Tenacious Concealment + Artifact Off-Hand Weapon.
There shouldn't be the only two options in order to make stealth usable. Stealth should be more or less usable no matter what your build. I hate to compare with other classes but it's easier that way, all other classes can use their tab ability and it will have an effect, usually their build will either be around their tab or their tab will simply complement it but they have the option to just have it as a bonus. For example a GWF could ignore the fact they have unstoppable in the building of their power and feat loadout and it would still be beneficial to use unstoppable in combat and they can use it frequently. With rogues unless we take one of the two options above we will likely only get one use of stealth during combat and then never see it until the fight is over. That is what is currently my issue with the way stealth is and appears to be the issue of many.
Yes stealth is very powerful but when it forces rogues to build a certain way in order to utilize it that's not a good thing. That said I do believe that the depletion is a good idea because before changes one could go perma and do large amounts of damage from stealth and never be seen and it was annoying to counter and I'll admit, fun to play, but obviously over-powered. However with 15% depletion, the GG gear and stealth boosting feats, I can only get 5 daggers from Cloud of Steel before stealth ends. That's at best 3s of stealth.
If people are forced to pick between perma and damage then in PvE you will only see those who pick damage because the rest will be ignored for all dungeons because they can always do better with almost any other class (literally any other class if the damage cleric doesn't get nerfed in preview) so the only time you'll see a variation is in PvP.
Yes having perma and damage combined is a terrifying thing, yes it shouldn't ever be allowed in PvP however perma is useless in most dungeons because the boss can see you anyways so why are you bothering? Just do damage. Before in dungeons like PK when my gs was low and the people I pugged with had low gear then I could just go perma and either solo the boss (it took forever) or use it to res them. Now bosses can see through it so perma has no use that I can see in PvE.
i don't even have room for shadow strike in my build rotations >.>
i would also rather not unslot skillful infiltrator because of the 3% critical/deflect + 15% run speed. 5 seconds of stealth kinda requires the need of the 45% run speed feature but i am not getting that stealth back once i exit (or at least not for a while depending on how much i am hit). it's basically a lose-lose situation no matter what i do.
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited October 2014
Has anyon tried this with executioner on test? For PvP lashing blade testealty with as. Target gets hit by 50% of the lashing blade at this point a squishy show kd get hit by a trick from GC. It's normal bonuses + the stuff executioner gets on a wounded target.
This seems the sort of play executioner is intended for but I'm not sure how to test it.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Has anyon tried this with executioner on test? For PvP lashing blade testealty with as. Target gets hit by 50% of the lashing blade at this point a squishy show kd get hit by a trick from GC. It's normal bonuses + the stuff executioner gets on a wounded target.
This seems the sort of play executioner is intended for but I'm not sure how to test it.
i tested this... it works well
if you want to get higher damage numbers from it do this
deft + tab + lashing blade
you will hit deft while invisible and keep invisible for lashing.... both damages will tick off
or even better... throw in a gloaming also before lashing
have fun with your deadly combo
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OK, the Tenacious Concealment thing with the OH weapon is cute, but requiring an artifact OH and a passive power to function is not good design. Period. It's a bandaid on what has been a terrible idea from the start. You can at least do it from green, thankfully, but the concept of having two things have to be perma-set for the sake of being able to use a fundamental part of the class without using a specific setup is just ridiculous.
So, yes, Tenacious Concealment and the TC OH keep you from losing stealth, but you still don't regen it if you take hits. Yes, yes, the dodge roll feat. Oh wait, I didn't take that one because I had better feats to take because I'm not a perma. Funny how this was never an issue before the stealth drain on at-wills. It's pointless in PvE. If that isn't going to go away or be massively reduced like it needs to be for PvE, then the Tenacious Concealment thing needs to be re-thought and reworked and stealth needs to just plain regenerate while you're out of it.
Having to be locked into:
Tenacious Concealment instead of something more fun
A specific artifact OH effect
A specific build type and playstyle
just to make effective use of something that should be usable, period, is absolutely unacceptable. The iffiness of refilling was fine before when you knew you were going to get plenty out of it when it came back. Get off some attacks, get into a better position, etc, but now that it's a one-and-done prospect, the time and effort it takes to make it usable is insane.
Things I'd rather be running than Tenacious Concealment + whatever:
First Strike + Skillful Infiltrator
Skillful Infiltrator + Sneak Attack
Sneak Attack + Invisible Infiltrator
First Strike + Invisible Infiltrator
Etc.
All of these are infinitely more fun than 'whoops, have to use the One True Loadout to have any use out of stealth'. No thanks.
Basically, all of this is just forcing me to go for a perma-style build to actually use my class features and my actual paragon feats. This was all supposed to be for the purpose of killing Permastealth, not making it both simpler and required.
The at-will changes sound good, but I of course reserve judgment until I actually get to use them in practice. We'll see if the DF speed up is enough to make it worth it again without its feat support.
Exactly!
Feedback: Stealth I find it unreasonable to deplete stealth upon taking damage, this needs to be removed and improved.
Feedback: Gloaming Cut: Base damage of this power has been reduced by roughly 15%. This At-will is SLOW in the first place its unecessary to reduce its damage.
Feedback: Encounter Cooldown The current stat design is noticeably ugly.
That's because you people aren't seeing from both ends of the spectrum, and only thinking in terms of how it would benefit the TR. How good, or how easy it will be for me to take down the other guy. That's the only thing you people are thinking about right now.
In terms of competition everything that is beneficial to us, is in turn malicious towards the other. Hence a reasonable middle point must be the goal and always, you would need to think from both ends of the perspective.
Prior to these changes, while the "stealth depletion on damage" was a very difficult and annoying thing to cope with as a TR, at the same time it was one of the few effective tactics for the other classes to fight a TR in stealth. Be it a wild swing of their sword, a guesswork of AoEs fired off, or just by plain luck, a hit on the TR would shorten the stealth duration and make it worthwhile for the sacrifices and risk the other classes made in order to turn the tide of the battle in their favor. If they couldn't do that at all, every single fight would be massively in favor of any perma build, which solely relies on the protection of stealth while laying down damage.
Hence, under those conditions things were roughly equal, as the opponent would have to face TRs in stealth, and suffer under a very long duration where the initiative and flow of combat was totally dictated by the TR. On the other hand, an untimely incoming hit would screw the rotation for the TR and it was very possible things would turn drastically cascade downhill for the TR, because of one single hit coming in.
...
It wasn't until the amounts of crazy DoT damage coming from broken OP classes like the HR, a class that can not only withstand the attacks from stealth easily, but also given any opportunity would rip to shreds any stealth attempt (and doing crazy amounts of damage at the same time), that this fragile balance began to break up. That, and the frickin' cheese builds from skill-less TRs using PotB to just shave off any stealth from the TR vs TR equation.
But even when such things are considered, for the other classes, CWs, SWs, DCs, GFs etc.. etc.. hitting a TR in stealth is still one of the few viable tactics to be used against a TR in stealth. It's not something we can openly ask for without thinking balance as a whole -- not just by thinking how fun and cool and useful it would be to TRs exclusively.
Hence, the developers, whether it be from purposeful design or pure accident, managed to come up with a compromise point where they finally make it possible for us to remain IMMUNE to damage to stealth -- at the small, modest price of trading in one class feature to another...
...and you people still can't accept even that? You just NEED to have all the class features and stuff benefitting you, and you alone, with all the nice bonuses/buffs those provide, and still want to have the stealth-damage immunity?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Greed is what led the TRs to the unending series of nerfs. Whatever the whiners think, us TRs are currently approaching the borderline of "competency" and "plain OP". For one thing WK/Scoundrels are now exactly at that point, and so is GC-reliant MI/Sabs. At least from my own 'live-fire' tests in preview, us TRs are now ready to truly claim ourselves "on par with any GWFs, HRs, GFs". With the upcoming changes to CoS I am now honestlfy afraid, that that might push my own WK builds to OP.
Think politics.
We're at a spot where it very advantageous for us to 'negotiate with' and/or 'convice' other classes, so that we retain current changes, but would voluntarily cease in asking for anything more. We're in a great spot, or closing in on one. If we push any further then its gonna soon cross the line, and have everyone standing up against the TR changes -- from which point, the only future we are gonna face is a nerf that once again takes away everything we were given.
Stop this madness and think. Do we really want to antagonize everyone else? Do you people want to fall under the situation where the greedy HR players, or mod-2 GWFs were in? We ourselves already experienced that once around mod-2 where nobody would ever match up to us TRs except the godmode mod2 GWFs. Do you people really want to repeat that mistake?
Some of you people seem to want to push us TRs upto the levels where the current Combat HRs are. Sooner or later, some aspect of their self healing/self defense is going to be nerfed.
Me, I think they're plain OP and broken as hell. That's not what I want for us TRs. I don't want some short moment of OP glory where we be kings for a shortwhile, and then be hit with a nerf-hammer two~three months after the patch.
I'd rather stop at this point where everything is generally satisfactory, and then make up for the small things with my own skill and effort, instead of asking the developers to give us every single item on our wishlist.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Im starting to doubt your intention for this class Kweassa.... seems like you dont like this class to have "EQUAL FOOTING" with other class. You want TR to stick with shadow strike, Tenacious Concealment and 10% reduction offhand? Its really hard explaining important things to narrow minded and kings of showoff.
Now you realise about this? This person won't stop until class is buried few metres underground.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
...and you people still can't accept even that? You just NEED to have all the class features and stuff benefitting you, and you alone, with all the nice bonuses/buffs those provide, and still want to have the stealth-damage immunity?
You're getting it wrong. While there are some people that ask for stealth doesn't depleting with damage, others are just asking for stealth to just normally fill when others already can see you. Tricksters aren't a tanky class and obviously you're more likely to die before stealth fills again in PvP so this idea is more likely to improve PvE performance of the class, where staying alive out of stealth for a while is easier. After one stealth, without using shadow strike or tenacious + off hand, our tab feature becomes completely useless, and this is the only class that suffers from that.
I will never never leave perma stealth without tools to survive out of it. Too many dots too much burst too many passive damage around.
I will die 100 per cent so at least i will <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> them off as long as i can.
This is the only reason for which im ok with at will depleting stealth.
It s not like have chances in any scenario.
Stealth refilling always no matter what and like 30 per cent more deflect can probably change my mind but again the whole *rework* gave us 0 boost except for lashing with lurker assault on. I was happy with gloaming tho.. well nerfed. Cloud will have some use.
However this is the path dev have choosen and i hardly think is going to change.
They are giving us something, im glad they did but the comparison tr vs any other class cant stand.
Again this rework is a "i give you one, i take back 1" addressing 0 of the core problems.
I dont flame/blame just because is funnier to play than before.
I cant say that I have tested the recent changes - but in answer to your question, No
In PVP TR's out of stealth will just be stunned / froze whatever dead, and in PVE they will be out damaged by any other class. Hell since I hate these changes I have started playing a SW and HR. Both of these around 10K GS out damage my current just below 15KTR and have more survival.
The be all and end all is that I see absolutely nothing within these changes that will help TR's survive out of stealth - which when proved true just means all TR's will pick the same route / at wills and play perma's. So I see these changes as a failure because I feel there main aim was to encourage players away from that route, which I applaud the devs for trying. But for it to work TR need a way of staying alive out of stealth - more damage (however nice) link to tab key is not an answer to this. More armour, more deflect, more regen, quicker recovery, more HP pool, these are some areas that will help. More damage does not help in terms of survival
Stealth: Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack.
Stealth depleting.
Stealth gives rogues two things: Combat Advantage (nominally 15% more damage) and kind of semi-defense "untargetable" (at least on paper it should be, but this is another story :mad:)
No for draining stealth by using melee attacks. At-wills like SF, DF should works like GC(MI).
Close combat fighting rogue is/was always visible and targetable for at least one or sometime more opponents because of short distance (seems someone forgot that stealth was already nerfed.. long, long time ago). So now when after ~3 hits rouge become visible for all, what definitely means big troubles including instant death. In case of melee attacks next nerf is too much.
Ranged at-wills: CoS, DS(WK).. maybe, but something for something..
CoS should has no charges, and both at-wills should has range increased up to 80'.
In PVP TR's out of stealth will just be stunned / froze whatever dead, and in PVE they will be out damaged by any other class. Hell since I hate these changes I have started playing a SW and HR. Both of these around 10K GS out damage my current just below 15KTR and have more survival.
tested and proven this is all true, we keep on asking because we know what is enough and what is lacking. For example a HR 3 encounters 2 Atwills in melee just press Tab and you get another 3 encounters and 2 atwills hustle free! no cooldowns! simple as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>! But for TR press Tab if you use smoke bomb that advantage becomes slow haha! pathetic! use shadow strike and you will refresh the meter and short daze for what? a grain of damage? Another issue I noticed is that some feats and passives rely too much in stealth and daily so that means without stealth its useless... without activating dailies still useless so we have lots of dead feats when we are visible why dont they make something thats is not stealth base that will solve the problem.
I understand you don't want to be OP again, because we'll get nerfed again Kweassa, but I don't think that the ability to enter stealth once ever 10-15 secs is op at all. Specially now that stealth lasts around 2-3 secs. Remember that this is for scoundrel and executioner, saboteur already has many faster ways to regain stealth and probably would never need it.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited October 2014
feedback: Please increase the damage of shocking execution, currently it does less damage than basic at wills...
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Comments
Why are the changes making it even easier to permastealth then?
they said that they intended to make it more complicated for staying perma. There is no "damage" perma build. There never was. Not in vanilla/mod1 (didn't play any premades in this mod so dunno the meta), mod2 (semi-perma with IS), mod3 (HR disable full-perma) or mod4 (passive full-perma; pugstomping semi-perma glyph build [still bns&ss but bi instead of pvpt2]).
The only full-perma damage build that is existing is on the ptr from mod5.
And with the new feats a full-perma doesn't even need SS and BnS. The old full-perma had to use ITC, BnS and SS. So the only damage source was at-will attacks. Also DF is one of the most hardest at-wills to land properly and if they keep doing what they are doing it will become the next meatball.
But right now (on ptr) it is retardedly easy to maintain perma with a incredible high amount of damage (i.e. unmitigatable damage wohoo... that's how we roll, aight?!) and addition encounter damage source. If they want to get rid of perma they've to tweak the feats and not add stealth depletion.
imho. premade pvp & meta builds (bis) related only.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
Well even if that is true they failed since TR can do more damage and still stay in stealth as easy as before..
So, yes, Tenacious Concealment and the TC OH keep you from losing stealth, but you still don't regen it if you take hits. Yes, yes, the dodge roll feat. Oh wait, I didn't take that one because I had better feats to take because I'm not a perma. Funny how this was never an issue before the stealth drain on at-wills. It's pointless in PvE. If that isn't going to go away or be massively reduced like it needs to be for PvE, then the Tenacious Concealment thing needs to be re-thought and reworked and stealth needs to just plain regenerate while you're out of it.
Having to be locked into:
Tenacious Concealment instead of something more fun
A specific artifact OH effect
A specific build type and playstyle
just to make effective use of something that should be usable, period, is absolutely unacceptable. The iffiness of refilling was fine before when you knew you were going to get plenty out of it when it came back. Get off some attacks, get into a better position, etc, but now that it's a one-and-done prospect, the time and effort it takes to make it usable is insane.
Things I'd rather be running than Tenacious Concealment + whatever:
First Strike + Skillful Infiltrator
Skillful Infiltrator + Sneak Attack
Sneak Attack + Invisible Infiltrator
First Strike + Invisible Infiltrator
Etc.
All of these are infinitely more fun than 'whoops, have to use the One True Loadout to have any use out of stealth'. No thanks.
Basically, all of this is just forcing me to go for a perma-style build to actually use my class features and my actual paragon feats. This was all supposed to be for the purpose of killing Permastealth, not making it both simpler and required.
The at-will changes sound good, but I of course reserve judgment until I actually get to use them in practice. We'll see if the DF speed up is enough to make it worth it again without its feat support.
feedback listed in blue and red above
Dodges seems to be adjusted now.
There hasn't been an update for the most recent batch of changes, so no point trying to test them yet.
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I haven't checked base numbers between live and test but in actual play the GC on test hits like a truck. On live I used it in turn the other night and was hiring between 9 and 13k. On test it quickly ramped into mid teens with 40k as an extreme. I can easily imagine on a rebuffed boss hiring 60k or more with GC .
I am speaking from my own exp.
Gloaming on live as is on a target with more than 50% hp hits the same amount of damage as two hits from sly flourish.
more important is that one gloaming strike in attack time is the same as two sly flourish attacks.
Everything seemed fine to me.
Now sly flourish gets boosted damage and gloaming gets nerfed.
It is not existing within a nerf vacuum.
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that is if we go for sab path....
What if I want executioner
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
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All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
This was going to be my counter-argument to kweassa as well. Yes it makes rogues a lot more viable however it basically means that we have to choose between Shadow Strike or Tenacious Concealment + Artifact Off-Hand Weapon.
There shouldn't be the only two options in order to make stealth usable. Stealth should be more or less usable no matter what your build. I hate to compare with other classes but it's easier that way, all other classes can use their tab ability and it will have an effect, usually their build will either be around their tab or their tab will simply complement it but they have the option to just have it as a bonus. For example a GWF could ignore the fact they have unstoppable in the building of their power and feat loadout and it would still be beneficial to use unstoppable in combat and they can use it frequently. With rogues unless we take one of the two options above we will likely only get one use of stealth during combat and then never see it until the fight is over. That is what is currently my issue with the way stealth is and appears to be the issue of many.
Yes stealth is very powerful but when it forces rogues to build a certain way in order to utilize it that's not a good thing. That said I do believe that the depletion is a good idea because before changes one could go perma and do large amounts of damage from stealth and never be seen and it was annoying to counter and I'll admit, fun to play, but obviously over-powered. However with 15% depletion, the GG gear and stealth boosting feats, I can only get 5 daggers from Cloud of Steel before stealth ends. That's at best 3s of stealth.
If people are forced to pick between perma and damage then in PvE you will only see those who pick damage because the rest will be ignored for all dungeons because they can always do better with almost any other class (literally any other class if the damage cleric doesn't get nerfed in preview) so the only time you'll see a variation is in PvP.
Yes having perma and damage combined is a terrifying thing, yes it shouldn't ever be allowed in PvP however perma is useless in most dungeons because the boss can see you anyways so why are you bothering? Just do damage. Before in dungeons like PK when my gs was low and the people I pugged with had low gear then I could just go perma and either solo the boss (it took forever) or use it to res them. Now bosses can see through it so perma has no use that I can see in PvE.
i would also rather not unslot skillful infiltrator because of the 3% critical/deflect + 15% run speed. 5 seconds of stealth kinda requires the need of the 45% run speed feature but i am not getting that stealth back once i exit (or at least not for a while depending on how much i am hit). it's basically a lose-lose situation no matter what i do.
This seems the sort of play executioner is intended for but I'm not sure how to test it.
i tested this... it works well
if you want to get higher damage numbers from it do this
deft + tab + lashing blade
you will hit deft while invisible and keep invisible for lashing.... both damages will tick off
or even better... throw in a gloaming also before lashing
have fun with your deadly combo
Exactly!
Feedback: Stealth
I find it unreasonable to deplete stealth upon taking damage, this needs to be removed and improved.
Feedback: Gloaming Cut: Base damage of this power has been reduced by roughly 15%.
This At-will is SLOW in the first place its unecessary to reduce its damage.
Feedback: Encounter Cooldown
The current stat design is noticeably ugly.
In terms of competition everything that is beneficial to us, is in turn malicious towards the other. Hence a reasonable middle point must be the goal and always, you would need to think from both ends of the perspective.
Prior to these changes, while the "stealth depletion on damage" was a very difficult and annoying thing to cope with as a TR, at the same time it was one of the few effective tactics for the other classes to fight a TR in stealth. Be it a wild swing of their sword, a guesswork of AoEs fired off, or just by plain luck, a hit on the TR would shorten the stealth duration and make it worthwhile for the sacrifices and risk the other classes made in order to turn the tide of the battle in their favor. If they couldn't do that at all, every single fight would be massively in favor of any perma build, which solely relies on the protection of stealth while laying down damage.
Hence, under those conditions things were roughly equal, as the opponent would have to face TRs in stealth, and suffer under a very long duration where the initiative and flow of combat was totally dictated by the TR. On the other hand, an untimely incoming hit would screw the rotation for the TR and it was very possible things would turn drastically cascade downhill for the TR, because of one single hit coming in.
...
It wasn't until the amounts of crazy DoT damage coming from broken OP classes like the HR, a class that can not only withstand the attacks from stealth easily, but also given any opportunity would rip to shreds any stealth attempt (and doing crazy amounts of damage at the same time), that this fragile balance began to break up. That, and the frickin' cheese builds from skill-less TRs using PotB to just shave off any stealth from the TR vs TR equation.
But even when such things are considered, for the other classes, CWs, SWs, DCs, GFs etc.. etc.. hitting a TR in stealth is still one of the few viable tactics to be used against a TR in stealth. It's not something we can openly ask for without thinking balance as a whole -- not just by thinking how fun and cool and useful it would be to TRs exclusively.
Hence, the developers, whether it be from purposeful design or pure accident, managed to come up with a compromise point where they finally make it possible for us to remain IMMUNE to damage to stealth -- at the small, modest price of trading in one class feature to another...
...and you people still can't accept even that? You just NEED to have all the class features and stuff benefitting you, and you alone, with all the nice bonuses/buffs those provide, and still want to have the stealth-damage immunity?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Think politics.
We're at a spot where it very advantageous for us to 'negotiate with' and/or 'convice' other classes, so that we retain current changes, but would voluntarily cease in asking for anything more. We're in a great spot, or closing in on one. If we push any further then its gonna soon cross the line, and have everyone standing up against the TR changes -- from which point, the only future we are gonna face is a nerf that once again takes away everything we were given.
Stop this madness and think. Do we really want to antagonize everyone else? Do you people want to fall under the situation where the greedy HR players, or mod-2 GWFs were in? We ourselves already experienced that once around mod-2 where nobody would ever match up to us TRs except the godmode mod2 GWFs. Do you people really want to repeat that mistake?
Some of you people seem to want to push us TRs upto the levels where the current Combat HRs are. Sooner or later, some aspect of their self healing/self defense is going to be nerfed.
Me, I think they're plain OP and broken as hell. That's not what I want for us TRs. I don't want some short moment of OP glory where we be kings for a shortwhile, and then be hit with a nerf-hammer two~three months after the patch.
I'd rather stop at this point where everything is generally satisfactory, and then make up for the small things with my own skill and effort, instead of asking the developers to give us every single item on our wishlist.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Now you realise about this? This person won't stop until class is buried few metres underground.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
You're getting it wrong. While there are some people that ask for stealth doesn't depleting with damage, others are just asking for stealth to just normally fill when others already can see you. Tricksters aren't a tanky class and obviously you're more likely to die before stealth fills again in PvP so this idea is more likely to improve PvE performance of the class, where staying alive out of stealth for a while is easier. After one stealth, without using shadow strike or tenacious + off hand, our tab feature becomes completely useless, and this is the only class that suffers from that.
I will die 100 per cent so at least i will <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> them off as long as i can.
This is the only reason for which im ok with at will depleting stealth.
It s not like have chances in any scenario.
Stealth refilling always no matter what and like 30 per cent more deflect can probably change my mind but again the whole *rework* gave us 0 boost except for lashing with lurker assault on. I was happy with gloaming tho.. well nerfed. Cloud will have some use.
However this is the path dev have choosen and i hardly think is going to change.
They are giving us something, im glad they did but the comparison tr vs any other class cant stand.
Again this rework is a "i give you one, i take back 1" addressing 0 of the core problems.
I dont flame/blame just because is funnier to play than before.
I cant say that I have tested the recent changes - but in answer to your question, No
In PVP TR's out of stealth will just be stunned / froze whatever dead, and in PVE they will be out damaged by any other class. Hell since I hate these changes I have started playing a SW and HR. Both of these around 10K GS out damage my current just below 15KTR and have more survival.
The be all and end all is that I see absolutely nothing within these changes that will help TR's survive out of stealth - which when proved true just means all TR's will pick the same route / at wills and play perma's. So I see these changes as a failure because I feel there main aim was to encourage players away from that route, which I applaud the devs for trying. But for it to work TR need a way of staying alive out of stealth - more damage (however nice) link to tab key is not an answer to this. More armour, more deflect, more regen, quicker recovery, more HP pool, these are some areas that will help. More damage does not help in terms of survival
All the best
Stealth depleting.
Stealth gives rogues two things: Combat Advantage (nominally 15% more damage) and kind of semi-defense "untargetable" (at least on paper it should be, but this is another story :mad:)
No for draining stealth by using melee attacks. At-wills like SF, DF should works like GC(MI).
Close combat fighting rogue is/was always visible and targetable for at least one or sometime more opponents because of short distance (seems someone forgot that stealth was already nerfed.. long, long time ago). So now when after ~3 hits rouge become visible for all, what definitely means big troubles including instant death. In case of melee attacks next nerf is too much.
Ranged at-wills: CoS, DS(WK).. maybe, but something for something..
CoS should has no charges, and both at-wills should has range increased up to 80'.
ps. I hope above is in English
tested and proven this is all true, we keep on asking because we know what is enough and what is lacking. For example a HR 3 encounters 2 Atwills in melee just press Tab and you get another 3 encounters and 2 atwills hustle free! no cooldowns! simple as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>! But for TR press Tab if you use smoke bomb that advantage becomes slow haha! pathetic! use shadow strike and you will refresh the meter and short daze for what? a grain of damage? Another issue I noticed is that some feats and passives rely too much in stealth and daily so that means without stealth its useless... without activating dailies still useless so we have lots of dead feats when we are visible why dont they make something thats is not stealth base that will solve the problem.
Please increase the damage of shocking execution, currently it does less damage than basic at wills...