demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited November 2014
Feedback: At times we see dodged by our character and we are standing still.
As TR I feel that we should have a dodge% based on our total dexterity, plus a bonus hit% based on our dexterity.
If we had a visible dodge% that worked, our class would be less squishy.
If you want to improve our QoL, please give us the ability to dodge based on our stats.
This will add synergy to the stat increase from artifact belts and make them more attractive as well.
($$$$$$)
17 days remaining, make it happen.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited November 2014
feedback
I switched to scoundrel primary and sab secondaryblaat night and ran some iwd HE my character is 15000 gs.
Over all I'm happy with the characters offense. The built in 25% damage on controllled targets + the new df seemed to produce solid dps. The only issue I can see here is a signifigant drop in damage on control immune targets.
Like my previous runs the main issue was defense. I went dex cha primary had skillful infiltrator and some of the scoundrel deflection feats. I had a wopping 41% deflection even with all my boons geared to deflection.
I found doing the iwd he once I jad groups of undead charging me I very quickly had to drop. At my current gear I could finish some of the easier he but for example the totem of audio that's 61 epic I got stomped in the 3rd wave. I'm pretty sure this wouldn't happen to an be/cw/sr/gwf at 15k gs.
That said I talked to a sab tr at 17k gs and he said he was able to defeat some of the major he. No idea if the issue is my playstyle gear or expectations. I do however like the new playstyle alot. I couldn't tell if the new CoS was bad as it often got a 25-50% damage boost from feats.
Final bit I briefly tried wk executioner and it had alot more defensive issues.
OK trying out the new changes and to be honest I like the increase in damage, and being a WK I like the way COS now works, you know like an at will, without any cool-down. And I like the increase in dodges ect. The problem I am facing like many others I suspect is just plain how to survive out of stealth. For example trying the motherload HE (not to finish it, just to out live a small group of three). In stealth I am fine, but I cant do damage because this knocks me out of stealth. Once out of stealth I am getting hit for 5K actual damage, plus 2K actual black ice damage each time. I have just under 24K HP - so three hits and I am dead. Small group three raiders - out of stealth, dead more or less instance. Only way I can seem to survive is to stealth - use path of blades, re-stealth and then just stand there, and repeat and repeat. Which is just plumb boring - so perhaps my toon is just way under par for a 14Kish one, or perhaps I am just not as brilliant as some people, or perhaps, just perhaps TR's need a way to survive out of stealth?
So that's my feed back - minor encounters are fine, but I cannot seem to survive anything major. Perhaps it is just me - but I suspect most average toons are going to face the same issue when this goes live, and get fed up and stop playing TR. Please recognise I am not asking for more damage, I am not asking for more stealth - I am asking for more survival though
Bug: The damage from Shadow Opportunity doesn't appearing to be procing unless you have ranks in Ambusher's haste. A yellow "0" shows up in the damage numbers even though the ability still seems to display that Shadow Opportunity proc'd
Feedback: Return to Shadows should be changed to proc on stunned/dazed enemies to make it a bit more user friendly and group cohesive for those players who aren't tactically minded enough to constantly be seeking out the enemies backside.
The Flurry(third strike) in Duelist's Flurry should only consume one hit's worth of the Stealth meter. It is fair since it only act's as one strike for some boosting abilities such as Rampaging Madness, and it also lasts just long enough to consume the entire stealth meter if done this way.
The area of effect for Stealth Dazing Strike is very buggy and needs to have it's cone adjusted. Right now it is very wide but shallow and doesn't seem reliably consistent.
Both of the tier 1 Paragon feats selections for the Scoundrel need to have their effects doubled to 1/2/3/4/5% boosts for some added survivability
khimera906Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 898Arc User
edited November 2014
I don't know what's going on or what you've changed, but stealth is impossible to recover in combat on the preview shard. On the live server if I avoid a few big hits and dodge a couple of times, my stealth meter has time to refill. On the preview server this is impossible. I can live with the stealth depletion from at-wills, but you're nerfing every aspect of it. You've made it easier to lose and very hard to regain. Are we all supposed to go saboteur now, just to get a bit of reliability out of stealth?
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
I don't know what's going on or what you've changed, but stealth is impossible to recover in combat on the preview shard. On the live server if I avoid a few big hits and dodge a couple of times, my stealth meter has time to refill. On the preview server this is impossible. I can live with the stealth depletion from at-wills, but you're nerfing every aspect of it. You've made it easier to lose and very hard to regain. Are we all supposed to go saboteur now, just to get a bit of reliability out of stealth?
yeah this is what I've noticed too, had a large discussion about this very thing. i dont know what happened but its way too hard to maintain decent amount of stealth, stealth over all feels shortened too.
Stealth:
Instead of counting stealth as a percentage, where base stealth is 6 sec? and attacks reduce it 15% i would very much like to see the features that can increase stealth be counted as seconds instead of percentage.
eg: with profound set you gain 30% more stealth, but when you use at wills in stealth you still lose 15% of stealth so there is not much incentive anymore to use profound sets. Another thing i dislike now is the 7.5% extra damage from stealth with this set, now that stealth drains in very short amounts of time i find there are a handful of set bonuses that are now obsolete. These include all the pvp sets. a suggestion would be to just make it a flat 7.5% bonus to all damage.
to simplifiy: (6 sec base + 2 sec from profound set + 2 sec from heroic feats = 10 sec) Minus 1 second per at will use from stealth.
OOSS (out of stealth survivablity)
I rage when i see every other class handle IWD heroics solo (except the big ones) when our class is the only one left out that cannot with the same gear score. This is attributed to OOSS or lack of and lack of sustainable damage due to lack of OOSS.
There have been numerous suggestions on how to improve the Trickster Rogue so that is a 'powerhouse' class just like the CW, HR, SW and GWF are in these encounters. (admittedly CW and GWF are best at it)
Some of these include:
AOE CCs - Blitz(from stealth) and Smokecloud have pretty mediocre CCs, adjust blitz to slow out of stealth and KB from stealth, smokecloud can be effective but does 0 damage, give it a powerful DOT.
Stealth regen - latest update hasnt helped the class regenerate stealth, if anything its worse.
Scoundrel path - Deflect and Lifesteal values are pitiful, double them.
Coming out of stealth - When any rogue comes out of stealth it should gain 10% deflect innate.
From observation of other classes, alot of their survivablity comes from the 'gank is tank' method. TR can spike for high damage every now and then if you are in stealth (and usually only against one target), but other classes can still do alot more damage over time without even using their TAB function. This is where the TR falls behind in regard to PVE. This leads me into the next section.
Damage and cooldowns
Like i said in the last section, the TR can do great spike from stealth only but apart from that it is a struggle to keep the big damage flowing once you are out of stealth and with stealth being so short now and with stealth regen not working so great this compounds the issue of continuous damage.
Here are the main suggestions from the last 80~ pages.
Some of these include:
Stealth Regen - Constant or
At wills replenish stealth - only when out of stealth and nothing too high.
AOE - Added to one of our at wills. (not sure which one, a cool idea i had was to make CoS a charge up ability that fires a number of charges simultaneously based on how long it is charged for, making it actually fire a 'cloud of steel'. This does aoe in this form of attack at the risk of standing still to charge it up.)
More damage to some at-wills - Recent update on PTS has actually nerfed SF and CoS.
Using at wills increases deflect - Using SF gives deflect whilst in use.
Shorter Cooldowns - TR has massive cooldowns! Lashing should only be 12s to be inline with IBS with the option of if it misses the CD is only 6 sec.
PoTB - Pulses a few times for the same total damage, making it a burster instead of a psuedo DOT.
Dailies - Shocking is pathetic, needs a rework.
Fist strike - resets every 6 seconds or something like that.
Attributes
TR attribute selection is really stuffed up. DEX is meant to be the main stat however most people go for a CON STR or CON CHA combination. Disciple of strenght doesnt belong on the TR heroic list, needs to be changed to DEX.
To the devs, please take note of what people are saying. The changes are in the right direction and I thank the dev team for their work however there is still much to do to the TR to bring it up inline with the popular classes like CW and GWF.
The GC nerf is too severe. For me a avg level TR (15k) it went from 8k to 6k damage. 25% reduction is too much. The damage and/or the atk speed needs increased.
It makes a GC oriented stealth build unviable. A stealth build is great for leveling and lower GS trs.
I think alot of higher end TRs are invested in DF so dont really care about GC, particularly in pvp. They have put money into shiny new orange DF artifact weapons and were pushing for a DF buff.
There is no reason to not have several viable TR builds to suit different play styles. I think most of us remember how nerfing away TR skills got us to where we are now. Unwanted in pve and a single cookie cutter pvp build.
I had high hopes for these changes, and so far all I see is new stuff that will inevitably get nerfed in addition to the nerfs that we now already know about. The whole at-will depleting stealth is just painful. There's got to be a better solution for some of these issues as you see them.
The balance strategy so far seems to be 'give-something,take-something' but theres so very little to take and with a few exceptions, it feels like the results are pointing to more taking. More damage is great and all, but not if you aren't alive to deal it. I can't stay alive on live now without the stealth that I do have and I am only going to have a fraction of that after Nov 18.
Stealth:
Instead of counting stealth as a percentage, where base stealth is 6 sec? and attacks reduce it 15% i would very much like to see the features that can increase stealth be counted as seconds instead of percentage.
eg: with profound set you gain 30% more stealth, but when you use at wills in stealth you still lose 15% of stealth so there is not much incentive anymore to use profound sets. Another thing i dislike now is the 7.5% extra damage from stealth with this set, now that stealth drains in very short amounts of time i find there are a handful of set bonuses that are now obsolete. These include all the pvp sets. a suggestion would be to just make it a flat 7.5% bonus to all damage.
to simplifiy: (6 sec base + 2 sec from profound set + 2 sec from heroic feats = 10 sec) Minus 1 second per at will use from stealth.
OOSS (out of stealth survivablity)
I rage when i see every other class handle IWD heroics solo (except the big ones) when our class is the only one left out that cannot with the same gear score. This is attributed to OOSS or lack of and lack of sustainable damage due to lack of OOSS.
There have been numerous suggestions on how to improve the Trickster Rogue so that is a 'powerhouse' class just like the CW, HR, SW and GWF are in these encounters. (admittedly CW and GWF are best at it)
Some of these include:
AOE CCs - Blitz(from stealth) and Smokecloud have pretty mediocre CCs, adjust blitz to slow out of stealth and KB from stealth, smokecloud can be effective but does 0 damage, give it a powerful DOT.
Stealth regen - latest update hasnt helped the class regenerate stealth, if anything its worse.
Scoundrel path - Deflect and Lifesteal values are pitiful, double them.
Coming out of stealth - When any rogue comes out of stealth it should gain 10% deflect innate.
From observation of other classes, alot of their survivablity comes from the 'gank is tank' method. TR can spike for high damage every now and then if you are in stealth (and usually only against one target), but other classes can still do alot more damage over time without even using their TAB function. This is where the TR falls behind in regard to PVE. This leads me into the next section.
Damage and cooldowns
Like i said in the last section, the TR can do great spike from stealth only but apart from that it is a struggle to keep the big damage flowing once you are out of stealth and with stealth being so short now and with stealth regen not working so great this compounds the issue of continuous damage.
Here are the main suggestions from the last 80~ pages.
Some of these include:
Stealth Regen - Constant or
At wills replenish stealth - only when out of stealth and nothing too high.
AOE - Added to one of our at wills. (not sure which one, a cool idea i had was to make CoS a charge up ability that fires a number of charges simultaneously based on how long it is charged for, making it actually fire a 'cloud of steel'. This does aoe in this form of attack at the risk of standing still to charge it up.)
More damage to some at-wills - Recent update on PTS has actually nerfed SF and CoS.
Using at wills increases deflect - Using SF gives deflect whilst in use.
Shorter Cooldowns - TR has massive cooldowns! Lashing should only be 12s to be inline with IBS with the option of if it misses the CD is only 6 sec.
PoTB - Pulses a few times for the same total damage, making it a burster instead of a psuedo DOT.
Dailies - Shocking is pathetic, needs a rework.
Fist strike - resets every 6 seconds or something like that.
Attributes
TR attribute selection is really stuffed up. DEX is meant to be the main stat however most people go for a CON STR or CON CHA combination. Disciple of strenght doesnt belong on the TR heroic list, needs to be changed to DEX.
To the devs, please take note of what people are saying. The changes are in the right direction and I thank the dev team for their work however there is still much to do to the TR to bring it up inline with the popular classes like CW and GWF.
+1 for all.
CLOUD OF STEEL: damage reduced greatly about 20%, feels too slow.
SLY FLOURISH: damage after 400 swings reduced by 3%
DUELIST: range nerfed due to haste of animation
GLOAMING CUT: It was hitting over 10k crit now 3-4k on DC. The same DC that i was able to hit for 8-9-10k until some days ago. Definitely not a 15% nerf.
SUGGESTED FIX:
1) SLY FLOURISH should have its damage notificable increased or attack speed doubled. (i like the second more)
2) GLOAMING CUT reverted cause really its too much.
3) CLOUD OF STEEL should be reverted to its original speed. i dont care of its damage that much but i feel silly when using it now.
4) Path of the blade now does splitted damage (low). It should proc weapon enchantment and/or feats.
what s the reason to being able to crit if it does not apply vorpal effect??
5) Smoke bomb should have a dot or something like (best idea ever):
while in the smoke bomb cloud you rapidly heal back and refill your stealth bar.
6) Charisma now gives 2% deflect
7) Cooldowns lowered.
9) Shadow of demise should proc from every source of damage (cooldown increased from 6 to 8 but is now multitarget.)
10) heroic feat swift footwork does not seem to work properly...what about 15% deflect severity?
11) damage taken dont deplite stealth *when out of it*
12) shadow strike damage revised
Result of these suggested change:
now tr have something HR like (which is basically what we are asking for since pag 1) , while being able to dish out good dps not always stealth related with executioner. More deflect, more deflect severity help to survive when out of stealth and when this is not enough tr can now use smoke bomb for additional effets.
All of these can now be reliable done thanks to lowered cooldowns.
GG we are done
Here a kweassa's video showing how a scoundrel is supposed to be played http://youtu.be/-wr9hUm_vYQ
Great plays hand down until you start to analize damage done and the lack of survivability and that is the *tanky* path
We are making a slight change to stealth depletion from damage as a QoL change, and to remove the disproportionate penalty applied by having a damage over time effect on you.
Trickster Rogue: Stealth: Stealth depletion from damage is now directly related to how much damage the target deals. You lose an amount equal to the percent of HP that you lose in the attack.
This means that small hits will still block stealth regeneration for 3 seconds, but will no longer rapidly drain out the entire meter. This also conversely means that major hits and massive damage will drain far larger chunks of the meter than the previously did.
This won't be in today's preview push, but will be in for next week.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Lets clarify something here. The stopping of stealth regen is something it *always* did. I didn't make any changes to that. Overall you will regenerate more stealth, especially if you can dodge major hits. Previously any hit would drain 10% of your stealth meter (before Tenacious). This change means that any small hit that does less than 10% of your HP will drain less than it did previously, with no change in regeneration uptime. This is a buff to stealth regen, not a nerf.
Of course this needs to be tested to be properly critical, but really this concerns me greatly.
Limiting the disproportionate depletion of stealth from DoTs is great, but ripping a proportianate amount of stealth from the big hits is not the balance that you think it is. As far as I can see, its going to push players to needing Tenacious Concealment as a mandatory skill.
Making this more or less a necessity to slot because of limitations imposed on a class mechanic, doesnt seem to me like a good idea. It stunts the variety that possible. That variety is being pruned just as it's budding
Isn't this what the changes are all about? Balance and Variety in the build options?
I'm not asking to make it impossible or unlikely that a TR be pulled out of stealth, that wouldn't be reasonable. I am asking that you perhaps look at limiting how much can be depleted in this way. That would be a QoL change.
Feedback:Stealth 15% depletion upon using At-Wills and 100% upon using Encounters (SS and BnS as an exception) With this changes stealth application offensively is greatly reduced now with the upcoming stealth nerf will greatly affect the gameplay of this class. Now if you find it fair and just (which is not for us) give TR better toolkit and stat to be used defensively because the current state of this class is SLOW(movement speed and cooldowns which rely greatly in INT/recovery),SQUISHY and a UNDERDOG in terms of damage(single & AOE), crowd control(daze is simply the weakest cc there is), and durability (being a dexterous class it has low deflect chance). If you will look "closely" and try to find for its flaws you will see lots of it so please do not make it worst for us.
CLOUD OF STEEL: damage reduced greatly about 20%, feels too slow.
SLY FLOURISH: damage after 400 swings reduced by 3%
DUELIST: range nerfed due to haste of animation
GLOAMING CUT: It was hitting over 10k crit now 3-4k on DC. The same DC that i was able to hit for 8-9-10k until some days ago. Definitely not a 15% nerf.
SUGGESTED FIX:
1) SLY FLOURISH should have its damage notificable increased or attack speed doubled. (i like the second more)
2) GLOAMING CUT reverted cause really its too much.
3) CLOUD OF STEEL should be reverted to its original speed. i dont care of its damage that much but i feel silly when using it now.
4) Path of the blade now does splitted damage (low). It should proc weapon enchantment and/or feats.
what s the reason to being able to crit if it does not apply vorpal effect??
5) Smoke bomb should have a dot or something like (best idea ever):
while in the smoke bomb cloud you rapidly heal back and refill your stealth bar.
6) Charisma now gives 2% deflect
7) Cooldowns lowered.
9) Shadow of demise should proc from every source of damage (cooldown increased from 6 to 8 but is now multitarget.)
10) heroic feat swift footwork does not seem to work properly...what about 15% deflect severity?
11) damage taken dont deplite stealth *when out of it*
12) shadow strike damage revised
Result of these suggested change:
now tr have something HR like (which is basically what we are asking for since pag 1) , while being able to dish out good dps not always stealth related with executioner. More deflect, more deflect severity help to survive when out of stealth and when this is not enough tr can now use smoke bomb for additional effets.
All of these can now be reliable done thanks to lowered cooldowns.
Big fan of the DF change. My single target damage feels really good. I ran the Tiamat encounter with just myself, another TR and a DC. We couldn't get past protecting the priests, but otherwise I'd say the changes are performing pretty well.
Interesting thing is; rather than using stealth offensively, I used it as a panic button, for when I failed to lock down the mobs or otherwise took too much aggro. Which worked pretty well. Gave me some breathing room to suck a pot or pop Waters. And while it worked, I'm concerned with how this fits with the current gear and feat setup.
Some of our gear sets (PVP, specifically) and several feats are geared to increase damage from stealth. Which is counter-intuitive, considering the changes very clearly discourage us from using stealth offensively. So I'd like to suggest changing all the things that currently give us additional bonuses (damage, crit severity, etc) from stealth be changed to combat advantage.
So, for example, the PVP gear sets provide 7.5% more damage while stealthed. This is not only difficult to take advantage of, it's also exactly what the changes were supposed to minimize. So what about: You deal 7.5% more combat advantage damage?
Another note is what quite a few people have already brought up. One of the TR's I've been testing on preview is a build from before mod 2, which is a max deflect build (I thought it was a good idea at the time). So, halfling, 25 DEX and 25 CHA, 2500 deflect. All of the deflect feats and features give me a whopping 50% deflect. Now, don't get me wrong; this is a lot. And it's pretty noticeable, considering 75% deflection severity. But I had to sacrifice a lot for it. Even with rank 10 radiants, I end up with 25k HP. Compare this to the current Combat HR, who can get closer to 60% deflect, while still having 40k HP and nomming on whoever they feel like. (In PVP, obviously).
Is there any way to make a more defensive build viable without so much sacrifice? I'm thinking something simple, like increasing the DEX bonus to 1% versus .5%. And/ or ramping up some of the feats to either higher values, or changing the conditions to have more uptime. Or even, (dare I suggest it) removing damage draining our stealth meter and changing Tenacious Concealment to something that grants DR or something.
And how about a Scoundrel QOL change, similar to the Saboteur; could we make it so Dazing Strike does not proc Skullcracker? I really want to keep it on my bar, considering how good it's become. (And how few AOE's we have at our disposal.)
Meh. Either way, I don't think TR's are gonna be any more desirable in PVE (I genuinely don't care about PVP, Mod 4 broke it completely). But I think this is more because the CW hordes refuse to acknowledge that it's not that the content is TO EZ (WE NEED MOAR HARDERER DUNGONS) but that one class has single-handedly trivialized the content.
So, yeah. Who cares what you do to the TR? I can always just play my CW
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited November 2014
Feedback:Trickster's main stat is dexterity. Why not allow tricksters to be able to run non stop and simultaneously attack with at wills. Yes this means running and throwing cloud of steel, running and doing sly flourish, running and doing duelist flury (only flurry itself will make us stand still), running and using gloaming strike. All of these things will be more in line to a character that attacks with a main stat in dexterity.
Meh. Either way, I don't think TR's are gonna be any more desirable in PVE (I genuinely don't care about PVP, Mod 4 broke it completely). But I think this is more because the CW hordes refuse to acknowledge that it's not that the content is TO EZ (WE NEED MOAR HARDERER DUNGONS) but that one class has single-handedly trivialized the content.
So, yeah. Who cares what you do to the TR? I can always just play my CW
If pvp is broken then i don't know what can we say about pve? Other that it doesn't exist i don't know... There is no real pve since game was released, they changed one instance for 2 modules just to extend time when it was worth playing pve. CN was last instance worth doing. For me real pve which is worth focusing is that we do hard instance to get items which everyone wants and that require:
-challenge in doing it like hard bosses which require cooperation and need healer and tank to kill
-we can earn on it
Well there is so much that needs to be changed so pve will be again worth focusing that it would require new big thread.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Gloaming Cut is too weak for now, the 15% damage less should be reverted.
One person tested it and it is not 15% nerf, but much higher, I don't know details. Iin tooltip as it says it's 15% nerf but in reality it can be worse. There should be made thread in bug report to block this unfair nerf.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
One person tested it and it is not 15% nerf, but much higher, I don't know details. Iin tooltip as it says it's 15% nerf but in reality it can be worse. There should be made thread in bug report to block this unfair nerf.
i was trying to say this to everyone....
before the suggestions went live gloaming already had lost power... second reduction lowered it to the damage of wicked reminder.
some people are saying it's ok because of the 75% damage buff it gets when people are near death.
It has become a finishing move at will.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
The overall survivability of the TR outside of stealth has been brought into question quite a bit. Comparisons have been drawn between how invincible a melee focused HR can become (and rightly so) even though it is essentially half of a singular character. Consider this; The melee HR has more HP, better defense, deflection, and mobility than a TR. Add onto this, the capability of switching stances and enjoying an entirely new set of encounters to boot. The counter to this of course is "well the TR has stealth" which is true to a point but also overlooks the fact that the HR too has stealth which does not deplete from attacking and in fact even grants passive attacks to close enemies while active. HR stealth is far more reliable and stable than the TR stealth at a measly cost of some AP which can be restored fully in a matter of moments by a single artifact on top of the massive amount of AP generating capability that an HR has. This is completely imbalanced especially with the changes slated to come through for Mod 5.
As such I have already proposed doubling the two Tier 1 feats of the Scoundrel Paragon path but that won't be enough to make the dedicated melee striker equal to or more appropriately superior to the half class melee HR.
Dexterity should grant deflection to a TR at a rate of 1% per point above 10 instead of .5%. Further to it Dexterity should also grant a movement speed bonus of 1% per point above 10 as well. This combined with my other proposed change would drastically improve a TR's survivability as they can no longer rely on stealth consistently for defensive purposes.
Some other defensive changes I would like to see are for Deft Strike. The Whisperknife paragon path should be able to feat Deft Strike to break CC effects and have CC immunity while active. The Whisperknife concept is that of the relentless shadowy assailant who is unshakable in harassing it's target. What we got, was hardly that.
Whisperknife; Vengeance Pursuit, Hateful Knives, and Deft Strike should be CC invulnerable/escapes
The Master Infiltrator class feature Skillful Infiltrator needs to have it's effects increased, particularly the deflection and crit chance increases. Keep in mind that with the change to the Executioner paragon for no Critical Teamwork, you collaterally nerfed the entire team's damage potential. To compensate, the TR should be at least able to get their own singular capability brought back up above the previous level.
Skillful Infiltrator; Increase the chance and deflection chance bonuses to 3% per rank invested
Impossible to Catch being changed by allowing damage to occur even when empowered by stealth, means that you must compensate for that breif period of time with an increased duration, a lower cooldown period, or both to balance out the fact that it is no longer as effective at keeping the TR alive.
Honestly, I feel that changes overall are moves in the right direction by pushing the TR into a more tactical mindset, you will reengage tactically minded players such as myself. However you have to weigh the costs of these changes with how difficult you are now going to make it for some to play the class and also how it now stacks up against other classes in relatively similar roles.
Feedback:Trickster's main stat is dexterity. Why not allow tricksters to be able to run non stop and simultaneously attack with at wills. Yes this means running and throwing cloud of steel, running and doing sly flourish, running and doing duelist flury (only flurry itself will make us stand still), running and using gloaming strike. All of these things will be more in line to a character that attacks with a main stat in dexterity.
This is only sort of a good idea that needs clarification for balancing reasons. First I do like this idea however being able to move while attacking with CoS will screw up every other melee class we fight against. So I'd say that when attacking with our at-wills our move speed is lowered by a percentage amount. How much would need to be tested but then TR's get something unique and valuable to them that isn't overly broken.
Its hard to cling to something that isnt there anymore,
Some success in building a stunning scoundrel cc by slotting dazing strike + smoke bomb + ITC
This build can also take more combat on live, because you spam ITC whenever they can see you, for the time the opponent is not dazed.
This does not work so well in a two v one or larger. I would consider giving tr new powers that can be used to survive/ damage the ganking train of the entire other party. maybe hitokiri paragon path or something, made to fight more in the open, instead of leaving us with the other paths which depend on stealth being consistently available.
Instead of changing stats except in cases where they desperately need it, making new skills available and letting the players find out how to put them together might be a better way to balance both pve and pvp.
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Its hard to cling to something that isnt there anymore,
Some success in building a stunning scoundrel cc by slotting dazing strike + smoke bomb + ITC
This build can also take more combat on live, because you spam ITC whenever they can see you, for the time the opponent is not dazed.
This does not work so well in a two v one or larger. I would consider giving tr new powers that can be used to survive/ damage the ganking train of the entire other party. maybe hitokiri paragon path or something, made to fight more in the open, instead of leaving us with the other paths which depend on stealth being consistently available.
We are not clinging to things that are no longer there.
We are saying DON'T change our stuff in ways that the majority of us do not like! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA-EiQPLDFI
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Does anyone think these changes will help the PvE TR in getting groups? I am uncertain but my initial impression is no. Now if they will also go back and modify the other classes and bring them down to the level of the TR I think these could be some of the greatest changes around, but I am not sure if that is the way they are thinking.
From my testing so far I see the executioner as a weaker gwf or melee HR. I see the scoundrel as a poor mans CW (but damned the fun of the scoundrel). I find the saboteur as an even easier perma stealth with slightly more damage and lots of diversity in play.
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callofkutuluMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 56Arc User
Does anyone think these changes will help the PvE TR in getting groups? I am uncertain but my initial impression is no. Now if they will also go back and modify the other classes and bring them down to the level of the TR I think these could be some of the greatest changes around, but I am not sure if that is the way they are thinking.
From my testing so far I see the executioner as a weaker gwf or melee HR. I see the scoundrel as a poor mans CW (but damned the fun of the scoundrel). I find the saboteur as an even easier perma stealth with slightly more damage and lots of diversity in play.
Not even close, there is no PVE party that is going to want a TR after these changes (anymore than now), and in PVP we are going to be free glory points and K:D ratio fodder. Solo play for dailies we should be able to do just fine as long as you stay away from the big HEs, the Scoundrel stun path is fun for that. Maybe you can make more grindy daily content for the TRs to do?
The only things I see working in a good way now are the Dodge rolls, 3 is ok 4 would be better, and the quicker SF seems better now. Fact of the matter is we still don't do enough damage and we don't have the survivability.
I don't know, between the new blitz, the new dazing strike from stealth and the constant path of the blade, I have the impression I?m helping much more with general dungeon trash than before.
I think the changes are in a good direction, I don't know if it's enough, but at least it better than live server for me.
Comments
At times we see dodged by our character and we are standing still.
As TR I feel that we should have a dodge% based on our total dexterity, plus a bonus hit% based on our dexterity.
If we had a visible dodge% that worked, our class would be less squishy.
If you want to improve our QoL, please give us the ability to dodge based on our stats.
This will add synergy to the stat increase from artifact belts and make them more attractive as well.
($$$$$$)
17 days remaining, make it happen.
I switched to scoundrel primary and sab secondaryblaat night and ran some iwd HE my character is 15000 gs.
Over all I'm happy with the characters offense. The built in 25% damage on controllled targets + the new df seemed to produce solid dps. The only issue I can see here is a signifigant drop in damage on control immune targets.
Like my previous runs the main issue was defense. I went dex cha primary had skillful infiltrator and some of the scoundrel deflection feats. I had a wopping 41% deflection even with all my boons geared to deflection.
I found doing the iwd he once I jad groups of undead charging me I very quickly had to drop. At my current gear I could finish some of the easier he but for example the totem of audio that's 61 epic I got stomped in the 3rd wave. I'm pretty sure this wouldn't happen to an be/cw/sr/gwf at 15k gs.
That said I talked to a sab tr at 17k gs and he said he was able to defeat some of the major he. No idea if the issue is my playstyle gear or expectations. I do however like the new playstyle alot. I couldn't tell if the new CoS was bad as it often got a 25-50% damage boost from feats.
Final bit I briefly tried wk executioner and it had alot more defensive issues.
Feedback
OK trying out the new changes and to be honest I like the increase in damage, and being a WK I like the way COS now works, you know like an at will, without any cool-down. And I like the increase in dodges ect. The problem I am facing like many others I suspect is just plain how to survive out of stealth. For example trying the motherload HE (not to finish it, just to out live a small group of three). In stealth I am fine, but I cant do damage because this knocks me out of stealth. Once out of stealth I am getting hit for 5K actual damage, plus 2K actual black ice damage each time. I have just under 24K HP - so three hits and I am dead. Small group three raiders - out of stealth, dead more or less instance. Only way I can seem to survive is to stealth - use path of blades, re-stealth and then just stand there, and repeat and repeat. Which is just plumb boring - so perhaps my toon is just way under par for a 14Kish one, or perhaps I am just not as brilliant as some people, or perhaps, just perhaps TR's need a way to survive out of stealth?
So that's my feed back - minor encounters are fine, but I cannot seem to survive anything major. Perhaps it is just me - but I suspect most average toons are going to face the same issue when this goes live, and get fed up and stop playing TR. Please recognise I am not asking for more damage, I am not asking for more stealth - I am asking for more survival though
Thnaks all
The damage from Shadow Opportunity doesn't appearing to be procing unless you have ranks in Ambusher's haste. A yellow "0" shows up in the damage numbers even though the ability still seems to display that Shadow Opportunity proc'd
Feedback:
Return to Shadows should be changed to proc on stunned/dazed enemies to make it a bit more user friendly and group cohesive for those players who aren't tactically minded enough to constantly be seeking out the enemies backside.
The Flurry(third strike) in Duelist's Flurry should only consume one hit's worth of the Stealth meter. It is fair since it only act's as one strike for some boosting abilities such as Rampaging Madness, and it also lasts just long enough to consume the entire stealth meter if done this way.
The area of effect for Stealth Dazing Strike is very buggy and needs to have it's cone adjusted. Right now it is very wide but shallow and doesn't seem reliably consistent.
Both of the tier 1 Paragon feats selections for the Scoundrel need to have their effects doubled to 1/2/3/4/5% boosts for some added survivability
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
yeah this is what I've noticed too, had a large discussion about this very thing. i dont know what happened but its way too hard to maintain decent amount of stealth, stealth over all feels shortened too.
Stealth:
Instead of counting stealth as a percentage, where base stealth is 6 sec? and attacks reduce it 15% i would very much like to see the features that can increase stealth be counted as seconds instead of percentage.
eg: with profound set you gain 30% more stealth, but when you use at wills in stealth you still lose 15% of stealth so there is not much incentive anymore to use profound sets. Another thing i dislike now is the 7.5% extra damage from stealth with this set, now that stealth drains in very short amounts of time i find there are a handful of set bonuses that are now obsolete. These include all the pvp sets. a suggestion would be to just make it a flat 7.5% bonus to all damage.
to simplifiy: (6 sec base + 2 sec from profound set + 2 sec from heroic feats = 10 sec) Minus 1 second per at will use from stealth.
OOSS (out of stealth survivablity)
I rage when i see every other class handle IWD heroics solo (except the big ones) when our class is the only one left out that cannot with the same gear score. This is attributed to OOSS or lack of and lack of sustainable damage due to lack of OOSS.
There have been numerous suggestions on how to improve the Trickster Rogue so that is a 'powerhouse' class just like the CW, HR, SW and GWF are in these encounters. (admittedly CW and GWF are best at it)
Some of these include:
AOE CCs - Blitz(from stealth) and Smokecloud have pretty mediocre CCs, adjust blitz to slow out of stealth and KB from stealth, smokecloud can be effective but does 0 damage, give it a powerful DOT.
Stealth regen - latest update hasnt helped the class regenerate stealth, if anything its worse.
Scoundrel path - Deflect and Lifesteal values are pitiful, double them.
Coming out of stealth - When any rogue comes out of stealth it should gain 10% deflect innate.
From observation of other classes, alot of their survivablity comes from the 'gank is tank' method. TR can spike for high damage every now and then if you are in stealth (and usually only against one target), but other classes can still do alot more damage over time without even using their TAB function. This is where the TR falls behind in regard to PVE. This leads me into the next section.
Damage and cooldowns
Like i said in the last section, the TR can do great spike from stealth only but apart from that it is a struggle to keep the big damage flowing once you are out of stealth and with stealth being so short now and with stealth regen not working so great this compounds the issue of continuous damage.
Here are the main suggestions from the last 80~ pages.
Some of these include:
Stealth Regen - Constant or
At wills replenish stealth - only when out of stealth and nothing too high.
AOE - Added to one of our at wills. (not sure which one, a cool idea i had was to make CoS a charge up ability that fires a number of charges simultaneously based on how long it is charged for, making it actually fire a 'cloud of steel'. This does aoe in this form of attack at the risk of standing still to charge it up.)
More damage to some at-wills - Recent update on PTS has actually nerfed SF and CoS.
Using at wills increases deflect - Using SF gives deflect whilst in use.
Shorter Cooldowns - TR has massive cooldowns! Lashing should only be 12s to be inline with IBS with the option of if it misses the CD is only 6 sec.
PoTB - Pulses a few times for the same total damage, making it a burster instead of a psuedo DOT.
Dailies - Shocking is pathetic, needs a rework.
Fist strike - resets every 6 seconds or something like that.
Attributes
TR attribute selection is really stuffed up. DEX is meant to be the main stat however most people go for a CON STR or CON CHA combination. Disciple of strenght doesnt belong on the TR heroic list, needs to be changed to DEX.
To the devs, please take note of what people are saying. The changes are in the right direction and I thank the dev team for their work however there is still much to do to the TR to bring it up inline with the popular classes like CW and GWF.
It makes a GC oriented stealth build unviable. A stealth build is great for leveling and lower GS trs.
I think alot of higher end TRs are invested in DF so dont really care about GC, particularly in pvp. They have put money into shiny new orange DF artifact weapons and were pushing for a DF buff.
There is no reason to not have several viable TR builds to suit different play styles. I think most of us remember how nerfing away TR skills got us to where we are now. Unwanted in pve and a single cookie cutter pvp build.
The balance strategy so far seems to be 'give-something,take-something' but theres so very little to take and with a few exceptions, it feels like the results are pointing to more taking. More damage is great and all, but not if you aren't alive to deal it. I can't stay alive on live now without the stealth that I do have and I am only going to have a fraction of that after Nov 18.
+1 for all.
CLOUD OF STEEL: damage reduced greatly about 20%, feels too slow.
SLY FLOURISH: damage after 400 swings reduced by 3%
DUELIST: range nerfed due to haste of animation
GLOAMING CUT: It was hitting over 10k crit now 3-4k on DC. The same DC that i was able to hit for 8-9-10k until some days ago. Definitely not a 15% nerf.
SUGGESTED FIX:
1) SLY FLOURISH should have its damage notificable increased or attack speed doubled. (i like the second more)
2) GLOAMING CUT reverted cause really its too much.
3) CLOUD OF STEEL should be reverted to its original speed. i dont care of its damage that much but i feel silly when using it now.
4) Path of the blade now does splitted damage (low). It should proc weapon enchantment and/or feats.
what s the reason to being able to crit if it does not apply vorpal effect??
5) Smoke bomb should have a dot or something like (best idea ever):
while in the smoke bomb cloud you rapidly heal back and refill your stealth bar.
6) Charisma now gives 2% deflect
7) Cooldowns lowered.
9) Shadow of demise should proc from every source of damage (cooldown increased from 6 to 8 but is now multitarget.)
10) heroic feat swift footwork does not seem to work properly...what about 15% deflect severity?
11) damage taken dont deplite stealth *when out of it*
12) shadow strike damage revised
Result of these suggested change:
now tr have something HR like (which is basically what we are asking for since pag 1) , while being able to dish out good dps not always stealth related with executioner. More deflect, more deflect severity help to survive when out of stealth and when this is not enough tr can now use smoke bomb for additional effets.
All of these can now be reliable done thanks to lowered cooldowns.
GG we are done
Here a kweassa's video showing how a scoundrel is supposed to be played
http://youtu.be/-wr9hUm_vYQ
Great plays hand down until you start to analize damage done and the lack of survivability and that is the *tanky* path
a side note: this is what russians thinks of the whole rework XD
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2lj0rnq.jpg
On behalf of the TR community, We do not accept your changes in preview server in regards to stealth being depleted based on the amount of damage we have sustained.
We are mad as hell, and we are not going to take it anymore!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dib2-HBsF08
Of course this needs to be tested to be properly critical, but really this concerns me greatly.
Limiting the disproportionate depletion of stealth from DoTs is great, but ripping a proportianate amount of stealth from the big hits is not the balance that you think it is. As far as I can see, its going to push players to needing Tenacious Concealment as a mandatory skill.
Making this more or less a necessity to slot because of limitations imposed on a class mechanic, doesnt seem to me like a good idea. It stunts the variety that possible. That variety is being pruned just as it's budding
Isn't this what the changes are all about? Balance and Variety in the build options?
I'm not asking to make it impossible or unlikely that a TR be pulled out of stealth, that wouldn't be reasonable. I am asking that you perhaps look at limiting how much can be depleted in this way. That would be a QoL change.
With this changes stealth application offensively is greatly reduced now with the upcoming stealth nerf will greatly affect the gameplay of this class. Now if you find it fair and just (which is not for us) give TR better toolkit and stat to be used defensively because the current state of this class is SLOW(movement speed and cooldowns which rely greatly in INT/recovery),SQUISHY and a UNDERDOG in terms of damage(single & AOE), crowd control(daze is simply the weakest cc there is), and durability (being a dexterous class it has low deflect chance). If you will look "closely" and try to find for its flaws you will see lots of it so please do not make it worst for us.
As that picture shows devs have indeed many options for TR.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Interesting thing is; rather than using stealth offensively, I used it as a panic button, for when I failed to lock down the mobs or otherwise took too much aggro. Which worked pretty well. Gave me some breathing room to suck a pot or pop Waters. And while it worked, I'm concerned with how this fits with the current gear and feat setup.
Some of our gear sets (PVP, specifically) and several feats are geared to increase damage from stealth. Which is counter-intuitive, considering the changes very clearly discourage us from using stealth offensively. So I'd like to suggest changing all the things that currently give us additional bonuses (damage, crit severity, etc) from stealth be changed to combat advantage.
So, for example, the PVP gear sets provide 7.5% more damage while stealthed. This is not only difficult to take advantage of, it's also exactly what the changes were supposed to minimize. So what about: You deal 7.5% more combat advantage damage?
Another note is what quite a few people have already brought up. One of the TR's I've been testing on preview is a build from before mod 2, which is a max deflect build (I thought it was a good idea at the time). So, halfling, 25 DEX and 25 CHA, 2500 deflect. All of the deflect feats and features give me a whopping 50% deflect. Now, don't get me wrong; this is a lot. And it's pretty noticeable, considering 75% deflection severity. But I had to sacrifice a lot for it. Even with rank 10 radiants, I end up with 25k HP. Compare this to the current Combat HR, who can get closer to 60% deflect, while still having 40k HP and nomming on whoever they feel like. (In PVP, obviously).
Is there any way to make a more defensive build viable without so much sacrifice? I'm thinking something simple, like increasing the DEX bonus to 1% versus .5%. And/ or ramping up some of the feats to either higher values, or changing the conditions to have more uptime. Or even, (dare I suggest it) removing damage draining our stealth meter and changing Tenacious Concealment to something that grants DR or something.
And how about a Scoundrel QOL change, similar to the Saboteur; could we make it so Dazing Strike does not proc Skullcracker? I really want to keep it on my bar, considering how good it's become. (And how few AOE's we have at our disposal.)
Meh. Either way, I don't think TR's are gonna be any more desirable in PVE (I genuinely don't care about PVP, Mod 4 broke it completely). But I think this is more because the CW hordes refuse to acknowledge that it's not that the content is TO EZ (WE NEED MOAR HARDERER DUNGONS) but that one class has single-handedly trivialized the content.
So, yeah. Who cares what you do to the TR? I can always just play my CW
Something is terribly wrong with TR on test shard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKvvOFIHs4k
Will Tr still be messed up after the 5th of november?
If pvp is broken then i don't know what can we say about pve? Other that it doesn't exist i don't know... There is no real pve since game was released, they changed one instance for 2 modules just to extend time when it was worth playing pve. CN was last instance worth doing. For me real pve which is worth focusing is that we do hard instance to get items which everyone wants and that require:
-challenge in doing it like hard bosses which require cooperation and need healer and tank to kill
-we can earn on it
Well there is so much that needs to be changed so pve will be again worth focusing that it would require new big thread.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
One person tested it and it is not 15% nerf, but much higher, I don't know details. Iin tooltip as it says it's 15% nerf but in reality it can be worse. There should be made thread in bug report to block this unfair nerf.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
i was trying to say this to everyone....
before the suggestions went live gloaming already had lost power... second reduction lowered it to the damage of wicked reminder.
some people are saying it's ok because of the 75% damage buff it gets when people are near death.
It has become a finishing move at will.
The overall survivability of the TR outside of stealth has been brought into question quite a bit. Comparisons have been drawn between how invincible a melee focused HR can become (and rightly so) even though it is essentially half of a singular character. Consider this; The melee HR has more HP, better defense, deflection, and mobility than a TR. Add onto this, the capability of switching stances and enjoying an entirely new set of encounters to boot. The counter to this of course is "well the TR has stealth" which is true to a point but also overlooks the fact that the HR too has stealth which does not deplete from attacking and in fact even grants passive attacks to close enemies while active. HR stealth is far more reliable and stable than the TR stealth at a measly cost of some AP which can be restored fully in a matter of moments by a single artifact on top of the massive amount of AP generating capability that an HR has. This is completely imbalanced especially with the changes slated to come through for Mod 5.
As such I have already proposed doubling the two Tier 1 feats of the Scoundrel Paragon path but that won't be enough to make the dedicated melee striker equal to or more appropriately superior to the half class melee HR.
Dexterity should grant deflection to a TR at a rate of 1% per point above 10 instead of .5%. Further to it Dexterity should also grant a movement speed bonus of 1% per point above 10 as well. This combined with my other proposed change would drastically improve a TR's survivability as they can no longer rely on stealth consistently for defensive purposes.
Some other defensive changes I would like to see are for Deft Strike. The Whisperknife paragon path should be able to feat Deft Strike to break CC effects and have CC immunity while active. The Whisperknife concept is that of the relentless shadowy assailant who is unshakable in harassing it's target. What we got, was hardly that.
Whisperknife; Vengeance Pursuit, Hateful Knives, and Deft Strike should be CC invulnerable/escapes
The Master Infiltrator class feature Skillful Infiltrator needs to have it's effects increased, particularly the deflection and crit chance increases. Keep in mind that with the change to the Executioner paragon for no Critical Teamwork, you collaterally nerfed the entire team's damage potential. To compensate, the TR should be at least able to get their own singular capability brought back up above the previous level.
Skillful Infiltrator; Increase the chance and deflection chance bonuses to 3% per rank invested
Impossible to Catch being changed by allowing damage to occur even when empowered by stealth, means that you must compensate for that breif period of time with an increased duration, a lower cooldown period, or both to balance out the fact that it is no longer as effective at keeping the TR alive.
Honestly, I feel that changes overall are moves in the right direction by pushing the TR into a more tactical mindset, you will reengage tactically minded players such as myself. However you have to weigh the costs of these changes with how difficult you are now going to make it for some to play the class and also how it now stacks up against other classes in relatively similar roles.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
This is only sort of a good idea that needs clarification for balancing reasons. First I do like this idea however being able to move while attacking with CoS will screw up every other melee class we fight against. So I'd say that when attacking with our at-wills our move speed is lowered by a percentage amount. How much would need to be tested but then TR's get something unique and valuable to them that isn't overly broken.
1. Dodge changes: Love it.
2. At-will changes
CoS: love it
DF: love it
Sly: ...honestly, I don't see what's changed at all...
It pays to think out of the box, instead of cling on to old and outdated ideas and preconceptions.
'nuff said.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Some success in building a stunning scoundrel cc by slotting dazing strike + smoke bomb + ITC
This build can also take more combat on live, because you spam ITC whenever they can see you, for the time the opponent is not dazed.
This does not work so well in a two v one or larger. I would consider giving tr new powers that can be used to survive/ damage the ganking train of the entire other party. maybe hitokiri paragon path or something, made to fight more in the open, instead of leaving us with the other paths which depend on stealth being consistently available.
We are not clinging to things that are no longer there.
We are saying DON'T change our stuff in ways that the majority of us do not like!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA-EiQPLDFI
From my testing so far I see the executioner as a weaker gwf or melee HR. I see the scoundrel as a poor mans CW (but damned the fun of the scoundrel). I find the saboteur as an even easier perma stealth with slightly more damage and lots of diversity in play.
Not even close, there is no PVE party that is going to want a TR after these changes (anymore than now), and in PVP we are going to be free glory points and K:D ratio fodder. Solo play for dailies we should be able to do just fine as long as you stay away from the big HEs, the Scoundrel stun path is fun for that. Maybe you can make more grindy daily content for the TRs to do?
The only things I see working in a good way now are the Dodge rolls, 3 is ok 4 would be better, and the quicker SF seems better now. Fact of the matter is we still don't do enough damage and we don't have the survivability.
I think the changes are in a good direction, I don't know if it's enough, but at least it better than live server for me.