If you'd read the entire thread, it's very obvious that they'd make more money by lowering the price to around 50$
People saying they'd buy it for $50 (or equivalent) is not a guaranteed sale at $50. What's to stop those people who said they'd buy it at $50 then complaining that it's $50 and not $35?
My Foundry Quests:
The Silver Sword - NW-DEIPWYISA - Daily Qualified A Relaxing Stay - NW-DEEYNZYZ9 - Daily Qualified but going to be updated
Having artifacts and other wanted-gear makes this pack something fresh
I would be interested in knowing more about these other items and whether they are Account-Wide for ALL characters or only usable with Dragonborn characters.
Are ALL the items redeemable by all 14 of my characters?
I am also Cryptic's target customer: I spend a lot of money on this game, likely a lot more than most
No offence, but you mean you're a mug with more money than sense? Did you not say you are 52? So am I. You should know better.
It's not a question of whether we can afford to pay it; it is a question of whether it is worth the price they are asking. It's a fairly transparent and juvenile marketing strategy to make something massively overpriced, exclusive and rare, and bank on there being enough mugs who will pay for it as "there is one dragonborn every minute".
But I'd have thought such a ploy would be more likely to work on 12 to 15 year olds rather than middle-aged grandfathers?
I do agree, though, that I do not need ANOTHER account-wide Epic mount. A companion with a really good active bonus might be worth-while, and an Artefact piques my interest.
~
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bazgcMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 184Bounty Hunter
The stats are correct but the cooldown is 120 secs as per other Legendary artifacts. Note that ALL legendary artifacts are getting a boost of 50 to each stat come M4.
My Foundry Quests:
The Silver Sword - NW-DEIPWYISA - Daily Qualified A Relaxing Stay - NW-DEEYNZYZ9 - Daily Qualified but going to be updated
The stats are correct but the cooldown is 120 secs as per other Legendary artifacts. Note that ALL legendary artifacts are getting a boost of 50 to each stat come M4.
Thanks for that - those are good stats.
But is this Artefact redeemable by ALL characters?
And what rank is it when you first get it?
~
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bazgcMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 184Bounty Hunter
I don't, because you can't back that up. If you add up the value of what's in that pack using any reasonable criteria it falls short.
If you want to buy it anyway that's your prerogative, of course, but that doesn't mean it's a good decision to do so.
Ditto. If you expect me to "back-up" my *opinion* then I expect you to "back-up" yours. Seriously, you need to read what you write. Hence we are at an impasse, you have my permission to take the last word on how your opinion is fact and mine is not.
I find it genuinely humorous how so many of these comments "complain" that the Studio will "make more money" if they lower the price. Bunk, I say. None of you care how much money they make. You, like me, are simply selfish: you want the pack, but you want to spend less to get it. That;s all these particular comments are really saying.
As for the observation that 'most' of the comments in this thread are complaints about the price, sure they are. Because the disgruntled always are louder and more vocal that the rest. It's why most threads in these forums are like that: negative in general. The fact is Cryptic will make a lot of money with this pack at the current price point. They may have future sales on it, but they'll never permanently lower the price on it, so if all the comments about how they'll "make more money by lowering the price" are hopeful attempts to influence the powers-that-be to lower the price, save your breath. It's not going to happen.
Totally agree with most of the posts here in that the Dragonborn pack isn't worth the asking price and this needs to be reviewed before I will consider buying it. I didn't buy the Hero of the North pack for the same reason, although I do have the Guardian and Feywild packs.
But I'd have thought such a ploy would be more likely to work on 12 to 15 year olds rather than middle-aged grandfathers?
~
I disagree with this comment purely because 12 - 15 year olds are unlikely to have the money in the first place, unless of course they can successfully 'con' their parents into buying. I do agree though that it is a question of value for money rather than mere affordability. I'm 50 myself and have been mortgage-free for two years, but the prices of some of these packs are nothing short of ridiculous.
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wmtrexlerMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You, like me, are simply selfish: you want the pack, but you want to spend less to get it. That's all these particular comments are really saying.
You are only partially correct.
It is truer to say that we want the dragonborn. We want to pay less than cost of the pack because we do not feel that what is in the pack is worth the price. And because of this we will not purchase the pack.
But I'd have thought such a ploy would be more likely to work on 12 to 15 year olds rather than middle-aged grandfathers?
Actually, that's wrong for almost all F2P games.
F2P games thrive on so called whales. These are almost exclusively adults with more money to spend than sense on how to spend it, and nothing to do except play video games (reasons vary - bored housewives, MMO addicts, retired people, etc). It's in a F2P publisher's best interest to entrap as many of these whales as possible, because they will often end up spending thousands of dollars on ingame items. The rest of the players are only small fish. Probably good for a few bucks here and there, but either lacking disposible income (like younger players) or simply more discerning about what they spend their money on. Most F2P games needs lots of small fish to stay alive, but the big bucks come from the whales so it makes a lot of sense to sell certain advantages at greatly inflated prices. The fish won't buy it since they usually only buy the smaller items anyway, but the whales don't care about the price as long as they get what they want. They would buy it even at twice the normal price - which is exactly what is happening here. The majority of the small fish won't buy the pack even at $50 since they're not willing to spend that much on a F2P game to begin with, but a whale will be happy to spend $100 on that same pack.
Now, I'm a small fish myself. Over the year (more or less) that I've played this game I've made the occasional purchase. A character slot here, a mount there, a couple of companions, etc. And I think that's entirely reasonable, especially considering the amount of time I've spent on the game. But I am not willing to pay $100 (or even $50) for a pack that is filled with mostly stuff I don't need or want. I'd pay like $20 for just the Dragonborn race without complaining, but I'm not interested in all the overpriced filler in the big pack. That's why I think it's a good idea to add a Zen store version of just the Dragonborn race. Of course this is mainly self-interest because it'd mean I'd get what I want, but I'm not the only one who feels this way. With a separate Dragonborn race option, the small fish still get to experience the new race without dropping more money of a F2P game than they're comfortable with, while the whales get a lot of extras including a bunch of vanity items which most whales enjoy more than little fish anyway.
And all that is completely ignoring the relative value of the pack in question. As many people have pointed out before, this new pack offers far less value for your money than the items in it would suggest, and is significantly more expensive than comparable packs. To me, that just seems like an easy way to squeeze the whales (who -as said before- don't care about paying twice an item's value as long as they get the item in the end) for more money. Some people are perfectly ok with that, while others have the common sense to at least notice the discrepancy.
That said, I'm not here to dictate how PW should run its games. I'm sure they know what they're doing a lot better than I do. I just think they could do so without causing this kind of controversy in their playerbase.
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imaginaerum1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 378Arc User
What I saw before said that the artifact was one-time-only. Did they change that? Or were people wrong before?
For me this is an important distinction, because the main problem I have with this package is that so much of it was claimable once only.
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bazgcMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 184Bounty Hunter
What I saw before said that the artifact was one-time-only. Did they change that? Or were people wrong before?
For me this is an important distinction, because the main problem I have with this package is that so much of it was claimable once only.
From the pack page on the Arc website:
"Each character on your account can acquire a Heart of the Red Dragon from the Dragonborn Legend Pack."
My Foundry Quests:
The Silver Sword - NW-DEIPWYISA - Daily Qualified A Relaxing Stay - NW-DEEYNZYZ9 - Daily Qualified but going to be updated
People saying they'd buy it for $50 (or equivalent) is not a guaranteed sale at $50. What's to stop those people who said they'd buy it at $50 then complaining that it's $50 and not $35?
Some people would complain if they were hung with a new rope. The thing is; similar packs offer similar items for around $40-$60, the $100 and $200 packs offer mounts and companions along with the other items. All people are saying is if they are to pay this much for a race at least have a mount and companion or lower the price to that of the ones similar to it.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I would be interested in knowing more about these other items and whether they are Account-Wide for ALL characters or only usable with Dragonborn characters.
Are ALL the items redeemable by all 14 of my characters?
Most of the items are single-claim. It's unlikely that the two permanent enchants or the bag will bind (except to account), so they can be shuffled around at-will.
Somebody already mentioned that the enchants are actually all things you can make via the ToD campaign, though I've not personally verified this.
Ring, fashions, and artifact are account unlocks. They didn't bother to tell us about the Bahamut items, which is an appalling lack of information for such an expensive purchase.
we want the dragonborn. We want to pay less than cost of the pack because we do not feel that what is in the pack is worth the price. And because of this we will not purchase the pack.
Exactly. The only thing I truly want from the pack is availability of the new race, which I would happily pay $10-$15 for. The bag would be nice as well, which would naturally boost the price a bit, say to $30 or so. Couldn't care less about the rest of the stuff.
It's not that I want items on the cheap, it's that I refuse to pay a ludicrous price for things I don't want simply because there's no other way to obtain that which is actually desired. Which is exactly what nearly (if not) all of the complaint posts say. It helps to read the words on the screen without the filter of one's own preconceptions.
"One day I will leave this world and dream myself to reality"--Chief Crazy Horse
"Do what thou Whilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the Law, Love under Will."--Aleister Crowley
It is truer to say that we want the dragonborn. We want to pay less than cost of the pack because we do not feel that what is in the pack is worth the price. And because of this we will not purchase the pack.
I'll concur with your assessment. This is a fair statement.
F2P games thrive on so called whales. These are almost exclusively adults with more money to spend than sense on how to spend it, and nothing to do except play video games (reasons vary - bored housewives, MMO addicts, retired people, etc). It's in a F2P publisher's best interest to entrap as many of these whales as possible, because they will often end up spending thousands of dollars on ingame items. The rest of the players are only small fish. Probably good for a few bucks here and there, but either lacking disposible income (like younger players) or simply more discerning about what they spend their money on. Most F2P games needs lots of small fish to stay alive, but the big bucks come from the whales so it makes a lot of sense to sell certain advantages at greatly inflated prices. The fish won't buy it since they usually only buy the smaller items anyway, but the whales don't care about the price as long as they get what they want. They would buy it even at twice the normal price - which is exactly what is happening here. The majority of the small fish won't buy the pack even at $50 since they're not willing to spend that much on a F2P game to begin with, but a whale will be happy to spend $100 on that same pack.
This is spot-on, though it does omit some of the reasons a "whale" might have so much discretionary cash and it's rather disingenuous to suggest we "have more money than sense". I can assure you I weigh my purchases carefully - in this case (the buying decision process) is a matter of perceived value. If I perceive the value as being worth the asking price then I will consider how much my want warrants the purchase.
I'm also of the mindset that I'd rather pay you to wash my car, mow my lawn, clean my gutters when I could easily to that stuff myself. Does this mean I have more money than sense? If you think so then I suppose it's so.
However, in general this description is exactly spot-on.
As for myself: $75 okay. But the full $99 and I'd pass on it. It also just happens that the timing was right for me as I set a specific monthly budget for myself - (which all used to go to Star Trek Online, but now Neverwinter).
Oh, and as for a Zen Market version of the Dragonborn Race only... I am of the belief Cryptic Studios, as a going concern for-profit business would be outright unwise (read: downright stupid) to not offer such, which is why I suspect they will. But it also makes good business sense to not release such a thing so soon to maximize sales of the full package as there will be a lot of fence-sitters who will buy the pack while it's on sale, but NOT buy the pack at all if they know there will be a race-only option coming later.
But even if they sell it for 2000 Zen, there will be complaints it's "too expensive for the lack of value".
As for myself: $75 okay. But the full $99 and I'd pass on it.
And it's even worse in Europe with the higher prices there.
I'm in a similar category as some of the earlier posters - 51 years old, and with a substantial amount of spare cash... not sure if I'd call myself a "whale", but I have spent somewhere around $1000 on the game - way more than most players, I guess, but it's actually less than $1 per hour of playing - which actually makes this quite cheap, compared to some of my other hobbies.
I like getting value for my money, and the fact is that this particular package just does not qualify for me. at 50 Euro, I might consider it, at 35 Euro I would buy it immediately - but there is just too little in the package that interest me to justify the current price. Artifacts? Sorry, got too many of those already. One 30 slot bag? Sorry, got more than enough bag space already. Fashion items? Sorry, does not fit with the RP image of my characters. Gemfinder enchant? Sorry, quite happy with my Greater Fey Blessing enchants. Extra character slot? Sorry, already have two or three unused ones. Race change token? Uh, no, thank you - I created my chars the way I visualize them for RP purposes - not for minmaxing.
The draconic enchants and the glyphs are just nice, nothing more...So, what does this leave ... the race itself, the Bahamut Regalia and the Ring of Dragonslaying. Sure, those are things I would be willing to pay for - but not what is being asked.
Sorry, PWE - I have given you quite a bit of money, but if you want more from me, you have to give me value in return.
Hoping for improvements...
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dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
edited July 2014
Ditto. If you expect me to "back-up" my *opinion* then I expect you to "back-up" yours.
I and others already have; it is not hard to show that the contents of the pack are not worth the cost. N.b. that (at least in my case) such calculations were made using the assumption that current Zen store prices are fair. Some might call that a shaky premise but it's in favor of the company so I went with it.
Bunk, I say. None of you care how much money they make. You, like me, are simply selfish: you want the pack, but you want to spend less to get it.
Again, many respondents had already pointed out that they (and I) don't want the pack. We want the Dragonborn. (I do want a race change token for one character. I'll be buying it with Z raised through the ZAX, burdensome as that may be.) This is the point. They took a bunch of stuff they couldn't have given away and bundled it with a highly-anticipated and desired item to inflate said item's price. Do you honestly think such behavior should be rewarded?
The fact is Cryptic will make a lot of money with this pack at the current price point.
That remains to be seen. If we're lucky it will tank. If it does sell you can expect more of the same treatment in the future.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
And it's even worse in Europe with the higher prices there.
I agree with you. However I do have one pet peeve - and yes, I know it's personal problem for me but I simply have to voice it:
European people do NOT pay "higher prices". You pay the exact same price everyone else pays based on the current exchange rate for your currency against the United States Dollar.
In other words: your are not "paying higher prices", rather "it is costing you more". There IS a difference; you can thank your elected governments for the ridiculous tax laws they have imposed on you. It costs you more to buy stuff because of these extra taxes and I think it's also pretty bogus that you must always pay the tax, then plead your case for a refund when they shouldn't apply. I do know what you are saying, but get it right: You are paying *extra* taxes, hence your not paying "higher prices" - you are paying "higher cost".
Saying "higher prices" makes it sound like Cryptic (or any reseller) is intentionally raising your price just because you're in Eurozone.
//rant off
(sorry for the off-topic comment, but my teeth are getting worn down from grinding every time I see this phrase). LOL
I and others already have; it is not hard to show that the contents of the pack are not worth the cost.
Wow. So your *opinion" is fact and everyone else who carries a different opinion is flat-wrong (such as my feeling for myself they are worth the cost)? Okay. You show your colors. You have my permission to take the last word on my argument against your perceived sense of reality.
PRO-TIP: When making such broad statements such as "it is not hard to show that the contents of the pack are not worth the cost." - it's carries a lot more credibility and weight if you add "from my view" or "in my opinion" or "the way I see it".
wmtrexlerMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
@angrysprite
In my opinion Cryptic itself feels that the pack is overpriced. They show that by putting it on sale even before it is available (i.e not available until mod 4 is released).
In a previous post you said that you got the pack because it was on sale and that you would think twice before getting the pack at full price.
As for myself: $75 okay. But the full $99 and I'd pass on it. It also just happens that the timing was right for me as I set a specific monthly budget for myself - (which all used to go to Star Trek Online, but now Neverwinter).
@angrysprite
In my opinion Cryptic itself feels that the pack is overpriced. They show that by putting it on sale even before it is available (i.e not available until mod 4 is released).
In a previous post you said that you got the pack because it was on sale and that you would think twice before getting the pack at full price.
Correct. I'll do the $75, but not the $100. Which also is the very reason WHY it is on sale: to entice people with the same mindset to make the purchase, not because "even they think the price is too high". Anyone who actually understands business and marketing strategy understands this. it was the exact same strategy in January and February 2013: Hero and Guardian packs: not on sale, but rather offered two special things: guaranteed Closed-Beta access and (the no longer available) "Founder" in-game title.
I still use that title on every one of my characters to this day - even my temporary play-testing characters. TO ME that was part of the value of the Hero of the North package (I couldn't care any less about the Drow race myself, but I did want the Spider Mount).
Hence, and what I've been generally trying to express throughout this entire thread: Value and worth are different things to different people. Thus, if something is not valuable or have worth to you, does not mean everyone else feels the same way and neither of you are wrong about it. However, many of the commenters in this thread apparently believe their sense of value and worth is far superior than those who feel differently (at least this is how they're expressing these feelings).
After all, I have been described as having "more money than sense" because I actually find value and worth in this package - for myself (and have never debunked anyone else not finding the same worth or value). Okay, so be it. (Note: I've only debunked the argument that someone else's opinion is fact and my opinion is not).
I am amazed at how so many people actually describe (and perhaps genuinely feel) that the company is their enemy, or intentionally trying to screw them over, because they're "so greedy with all their cash-grabs". It's business. Cash-grabs are the end-game of all commercial businesses, this is no secret. Greed is not a bad word: you, dear players, are "greedy" for demanding the company lower the price of this pack because you're "too-cheap" to spend the money (perceived value and worth aside).
So however you describe the company what goes around comes around. It's a simple teet-for-tat scenario.
Fact: we all are "greedy", no one wants to spend more money than they have to, but most importantly: all this stuff is just PIXEL-CANDY and nothing more. hahahahah!
I think I've made my points pretty clearly and this argument is all academic at this point really. So hence forth I'll continue lurking and reading, but I'll let this comment be my own last word on it:
Whether you buy the pack because you find value in it, or you refuse to buy the back because, for you, there is not enough (or no) value in it: you're all in the right, no one is in the wrong here. Not even Cryptic.
I agree with you. However I do have one pet peeve - and yes, I know it's personal problem for me but I simply have to voice it:
European people do NOT pay "higher prices". You pay the exact same price everyone else pays based on the current exchange rate for your currency against the United States Dollar.
In other words: your are not "paying higher prices", rather "it is costing you more". There IS a difference; you can thank your elected governments for the ridiculous tax laws they have imposed on you. It costs you more to buy stuff because of these extra taxes and I think it's also pretty bogus that you must always pay the tax, then plead your case for a refund when they shouldn't apply. I do know what you are saying, but get it right: You are paying *extra* taxes, hence your not paying "higher prices" - you are paying "higher cost".
Saying "higher prices" makes it sound like Cryptic (or any reseller) is intentionally raising your price just because you're in Eurozone.
//rant off
(sorry for the off-topic comment, but my teeth are getting worn down from grinding every time I see this phrase). LOL
Sorry to correct you, but PWE/Cryptic ARE bulking the eurozone prices. They are levying a flatfee regardless of which country you're from, they've picked the highest rate. In the UK we pay 20% VAT on digital purchases from a non-EU provider - however this pack works out at around ANOTHER 5 euros above that price.
Yeah, there is tax our governments put on it, but the company is then skimming a little on top from people in countries that do not pay the highest rate of VAT in the EU. That is an unfortunate fact and I hypothesize that the company is doing this for ease of admin (not uncommon unfortunately) rather than levying the correct additional amount for each individual country.
For me as an individual on minimum wage, my opinion on this (after the last few days and reading everyone else's opinion) is that:
The pack is not worth the price to me. Simple as, much as I like the idea of a race-linked artifact (I do like that item) there are too many things in the pack I would not use.
I have bought the Guardian (best value pack in my opinion! still much enjoying it) and HoTN packs after saving for them - I intend to purchase the Feywild pack sometime shortly (still saving). The items I value from those packs the most are the companions and mounts and the starting weaponry items - plus the shedload of ADs! The fashion items and rings/bags were necessary to obtain those.
In the new pack, there is not the same attraction for me. The Dragonborn are not an interest to me and as said before, enchants and the rest also not desirable.
For someone wishing to roleplay a Dragonborn however will no doubt see a lot more value there (again, loving the artifact) and can make that value/price judgement call that most of us do when faced with something we want.
My opinion is still that the price is pitched too high based on my valuation of it's contents versus the precedents set by the previous packs - but that is my opinion and I will continue to support this game until there comes a point where I cannot afford it or disagree with the direction it's taking.
I disagree with this comment purely because 12 - 15 year olds are unlikely to have the money in the first place, unless of course they can successfully 'con' their parents into buying.
You'd be surprised. We are not talking 7 or 8, these are teenagers. And Pester Power should not be underestimated.
But I meant that the ploy of taking some poor quality stuff they couldn't give away, mixing it with some rare but highly desirable stuff of limited worth and charging three times the proper price in order to chump fools with more money than sense into buying it so they can belong to some sort of "Exclusive Club" and bask in the imagined glory, envy and admiration of their On-Line Peers is a ploy that should only work on 12 to 15 year olds. At best.
It should not work on mature adults with more sense than money. But we have middle-aged adults saying that they will buy it, and for the daftest of reasons. I could buy 1000 of these packs with no problem, but I am not going to as that would be a completely stupid waste of money.
I will not buy even one at this price, as that is only a marginally less stupid waste of money. You should never ask "Can I afford it?" Always ask "Is it worth it?"
If people actually see any perceived value in something like a title or the exclusivity of being publicly recognised as being mug enough to pay for an overpriced pack, it's not a Dragonborn Pack they need, it's treatment, quite frankly. I mean, "Founder" Title? What absolute, ego massaging nonsense. I find it hard to believe that a fully grown, mentally stable adult would set any store in that sort of thing at all. 8 to 12 years old? Yes, sort of like trading base ball cards and stuff; I get that as it is the sort of childish, juvenile thing little boys get into; but a tax-paying, grown-up adult who is allowed to vote?
LOL! My mind is boggling!
No offence to anyone, but that sort of thing really does not press my buzzer, so I'll pass.
~
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imaginaerum1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 378Arc User
...
Hence, and what I've been generally trying to express throughout this entire thread: Value and worth are different things to different people. Thus, if something is not valuable or have worth to you, does not mean everyone else feels the same way and neither of you are wrong about it.
...
Whether you buy the pack because you find value in it, or you refuse to buy the back because, for you, there is not enough (or no) value in it: you're all in the right, no one is in the wrong here. Not even Cryptic.
I think the key issue on this one isn't so much the perceived value of the pack itself, but the equivalent value (or lack thereof) when comparing it to previous packs.
On a simple how-much-zen-would-this-cost scale, unless they're putting an extraordinarily high zen value on the race itself (since there are no prior Zen Store races, it's difficult to assess the zen cost), the current pack is simply overpriced for what you get.
While it's true that for some people the perceived value of the pack to them is high enough that they are willing to spend the price to get it, they are paying for something with a smaller actual value than previous offerings.
I was happy to purchase the $60 founder pack and the $60 feywild pack. Not only did they have a high perceived value to me, but they had an excellent real-money-to-zen-value ratio. They were both a good value to me and a good value overall, compared to buying similar parts piecemeal through the zen store. The same, unfortunately, does not apply to the current pack.
One single change would have made me purchase the pack in a heartbeat: if the bag was a character-bound-on-claim account-wide item, like so many of the items from previous packs. That would have both increased the perceived value to me (as I am always short on storage space on my many characters), and increased the actual zen-equivalent value of the pack sufficiently to make it a good deal overall.
I lean to the whale side myself. Not thousands of dollars, but I don't have a problem paying for what I want in game. I don't have more money than sense. I do like having the founder's title, not as an act of flaunting, but I see it as a thank you from the game for helping them get going.
But $75 is too much. With the other packs, I could justify the value, even if it wasn't a deal, I could be ok with it. But with the current offering, I am not going to pay. Throw in some more and I will pay $75 even. If they want to make $75 from us "whales" whatever, someone else can argue that. But this one isn't going to spend $75 on a class and an artifact, and a bag. The rest is garbage, everyone knows that. Give me some zen, ad, mounts (yes I have enough mounts, but make it "cool" and I feel it has value), companions (same) or whatever.
I have seen it said before. I have my CC ready, PWE/Cryptic. Give me an excuse to use it.
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imaginaerum1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 378Arc User
...
I mean, "Founder" Title? What absolute, ego massaging nonsense.
...
In general, I don't much care about in-game titles.
I liked the ones in City of Heroes, because virtually any achievement could be a title, and some of them were very funny. For Neverwinter, however, they are mostly pointless.
I have access to "Founder", but never use it, because all it does is advertise that I spent money at a specific time. To me, this isn't an achievement, and thus is nothing I should feel strongly enough about to need to proclaim it to any who see my character.
There is only one title I have available to me that I put any stock in, and I use it on every one of my characters now: Foundry Artifex. Why? Because I had to do a lot of actual work to EARN that title. It means something. It truly was an achievement, unlike my spending $60 at the end of beta, which was simply a combination of cash and timing.
So, no, I don't consider a title of any kind to be adding value to any purchased pack. It is an amusing added extra sometimes, but nothing to which I would assign any cash or zen value at all.
dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
edited July 2014
PRO-TIP: When making such broad statements such as "it is not hard to show that the contents of the pack are not worth the cost." - it's carries a lot more credibility and weight if you add "from my view" or "in my opinion" or "the way I see it".
PRO TIP: Do not have this argument with someone from the philosophy department.
Every statement contains implicitly a huge number of qualifications, one of which almost always being that the statement is the speaker's opinion. The number of propositions that rise to the level of "fact" is vanishingly small (some would even say "zero"). "2+2=4", after all, requires the unspoken premise that we are using at least base 5 arithmetic; in base 4 the right answer is 10.
The real issue here is that (like many people) you are equivocating wildly on the definition of "opinion". An opinion is the conclusion of a cogent argument. You can't just handwave that away as if the speaker had said "I like vanilla more than chocolate". That would be a mere personal preference, which one can't (or is required to) defend. The issue under discussion has not been the subjective value of the Dragonborn Legend pack. As I (and others) have previously noted the value of the pack can be estimated taking the company-set Zen store prices as read, i.e. giving the company the benefit of the doubt. When adding up those prices the value of the pack does not pass muster, especially if the would-be purchaser then considers how many items in the pack he would actually buy if they weren't welded to the Dragonborn unlock. Be honest: how much of that pack would you have bought if all the pieces were sold separately? If the answer is "not much" then you may wish to consider that your decision to purchase was not sound.
That's not something you can just blow off as if it were a "cake versus pie" disagreement.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
Comments
People saying they'd buy it for $50 (or equivalent) is not a guaranteed sale at $50. What's to stop those people who said they'd buy it at $50 then complaining that it's $50 and not $35?
The Silver Sword - NW-DEIPWYISA - Daily Qualified
A Relaxing Stay - NW-DEEYNZYZ9 - Daily Qualified but going to be updated
I would be interested in knowing more about these other items and whether they are Account-Wide for ALL characters or only usable with Dragonborn characters.
Are ALL the items redeemable by all 14 of my characters?
How many of the items are tradable?
What are the actual stats of the Artefacts?
No offence, but you mean you're a mug with more money than sense? Did you not say you are 52? So am I. You should know better.
It's not a question of whether we can afford to pay it; it is a question of whether it is worth the price they are asking. It's a fairly transparent and juvenile marketing strategy to make something massively overpriced, exclusive and rare, and bank on there being enough mugs who will pay for it as "there is one dragonborn every minute".
But I'd have thought such a ploy would be more likely to work on 12 to 15 year olds rather than middle-aged grandfathers?
I do agree, though, that I do not need ANOTHER account-wide Epic mount. A companion with a really good active bonus might be worth-while, and an Artefact piques my interest.
~
The stats are correct but the cooldown is 120 secs as per other Legendary artifacts. Note that ALL legendary artifacts are getting a boost of 50 to each stat come M4.
The Silver Sword - NW-DEIPWYISA - Daily Qualified
A Relaxing Stay - NW-DEEYNZYZ9 - Daily Qualified but going to be updated
Thanks for that - those are good stats.
But is this Artefact redeemable by ALL characters?
And what rank is it when you first get it?
~
Yes, redeemable on all characters. It's Rank 1.
The Silver Sword - NW-DEIPWYISA - Daily Qualified
A Relaxing Stay - NW-DEEYNZYZ9 - Daily Qualified but going to be updated
Ditto. If you expect me to "back-up" my *opinion* then I expect you to "back-up" yours. Seriously, you need to read what you write. Hence we are at an impasse, you have my permission to take the last word on how your opinion is fact and mine is not.
I find it genuinely humorous how so many of these comments "complain" that the Studio will "make more money" if they lower the price. Bunk, I say. None of you care how much money they make. You, like me, are simply selfish: you want the pack, but you want to spend less to get it. That;s all these particular comments are really saying.
As for the observation that 'most' of the comments in this thread are complaints about the price, sure they are. Because the disgruntled always are louder and more vocal that the rest. It's why most threads in these forums are like that: negative in general. The fact is Cryptic will make a lot of money with this pack at the current price point. They may have future sales on it, but they'll never permanently lower the price on it, so if all the comments about how they'll "make more money by lowering the price" are hopeful attempts to influence the powers-that-be to lower the price, save your breath. It's not going to happen.
~shrugs~
I disagree with this comment purely because 12 - 15 year olds are unlikely to have the money in the first place, unless of course they can successfully 'con' their parents into buying.
You are only partially correct.
It is truer to say that we want the dragonborn. We want to pay less than cost of the pack because we do not feel that what is in the pack is worth the price. And because of this we will not purchase the pack.
Actually, that's wrong for almost all F2P games.
F2P games thrive on so called whales. These are almost exclusively adults with more money to spend than sense on how to spend it, and nothing to do except play video games (reasons vary - bored housewives, MMO addicts, retired people, etc). It's in a F2P publisher's best interest to entrap as many of these whales as possible, because they will often end up spending thousands of dollars on ingame items. The rest of the players are only small fish. Probably good for a few bucks here and there, but either lacking disposible income (like younger players) or simply more discerning about what they spend their money on. Most F2P games needs lots of small fish to stay alive, but the big bucks come from the whales so it makes a lot of sense to sell certain advantages at greatly inflated prices. The fish won't buy it since they usually only buy the smaller items anyway, but the whales don't care about the price as long as they get what they want. They would buy it even at twice the normal price - which is exactly what is happening here. The majority of the small fish won't buy the pack even at $50 since they're not willing to spend that much on a F2P game to begin with, but a whale will be happy to spend $100 on that same pack.
Now, I'm a small fish myself. Over the year (more or less) that I've played this game I've made the occasional purchase. A character slot here, a mount there, a couple of companions, etc. And I think that's entirely reasonable, especially considering the amount of time I've spent on the game. But I am not willing to pay $100 (or even $50) for a pack that is filled with mostly stuff I don't need or want. I'd pay like $20 for just the Dragonborn race without complaining, but I'm not interested in all the overpriced filler in the big pack. That's why I think it's a good idea to add a Zen store version of just the Dragonborn race. Of course this is mainly self-interest because it'd mean I'd get what I want, but I'm not the only one who feels this way. With a separate Dragonborn race option, the small fish still get to experience the new race without dropping more money of a F2P game than they're comfortable with, while the whales get a lot of extras including a bunch of vanity items which most whales enjoy more than little fish anyway.
And all that is completely ignoring the relative value of the pack in question. As many people have pointed out before, this new pack offers far less value for your money than the items in it would suggest, and is significantly more expensive than comparable packs. To me, that just seems like an easy way to squeeze the whales (who -as said before- don't care about paying twice an item's value as long as they get the item in the end) for more money. Some people are perfectly ok with that, while others have the common sense to at least notice the discrepancy.
That said, I'm not here to dictate how PW should run its games. I'm sure they know what they're doing a lot better than I do. I just think they could do so without causing this kind of controversy in their playerbase.
What I saw before said that the artifact was one-time-only. Did they change that? Or were people wrong before?
For me this is an important distinction, because the main problem I have with this package is that so much of it was claimable once only.
From the pack page on the Arc website:
"Each character on your account can acquire a Heart of the Red Dragon from the Dragonborn Legend Pack."
The Silver Sword - NW-DEIPWYISA - Daily Qualified
A Relaxing Stay - NW-DEEYNZYZ9 - Daily Qualified but going to be updated
Some people would complain if they were hung with a new rope. The thing is; similar packs offer similar items for around $40-$60, the $100 and $200 packs offer mounts and companions along with the other items. All people are saying is if they are to pay this much for a race at least have a mount and companion or lower the price to that of the ones similar to it.
You can get a lot more info here:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/game-pack/detail/495-dragonborn-legend-pack
Most of the items are single-claim. It's unlikely that the two permanent enchants or the bag will bind (except to account), so they can be shuffled around at-will.
Somebody already mentioned that the enchants are actually all things you can make via the ToD campaign, though I've not personally verified this.
Ring, fashions, and artifact are account unlocks. They didn't bother to tell us about the Bahamut items, which is an appalling lack of information for such an expensive purchase.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Exactly. The only thing I truly want from the pack is availability of the new race, which I would happily pay $10-$15 for. The bag would be nice as well, which would naturally boost the price a bit, say to $30 or so. Couldn't care less about the rest of the stuff.
It's not that I want items on the cheap, it's that I refuse to pay a ludicrous price for things I don't want simply because there's no other way to obtain that which is actually desired. Which is exactly what nearly (if not) all of the complaint posts say. It helps to read the words on the screen without the filter of one's own preconceptions.
"Do what thou Whilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the Law, Love under Will."--Aleister Crowley
I'll concur with your assessment. This is a fair statement.
This is spot-on, though it does omit some of the reasons a "whale" might have so much discretionary cash and it's rather disingenuous to suggest we "have more money than sense". I can assure you I weigh my purchases carefully - in this case (the buying decision process) is a matter of perceived value. If I perceive the value as being worth the asking price then I will consider how much my want warrants the purchase.
I'm also of the mindset that I'd rather pay you to wash my car, mow my lawn, clean my gutters when I could easily to that stuff myself. Does this mean I have more money than sense? If you think so then I suppose it's so.
However, in general this description is exactly spot-on.
As for myself: $75 okay. But the full $99 and I'd pass on it. It also just happens that the timing was right for me as I set a specific monthly budget for myself - (which all used to go to Star Trek Online, but now Neverwinter).
Oh, and as for a Zen Market version of the Dragonborn Race only... I am of the belief Cryptic Studios, as a going concern for-profit business would be outright unwise (read: downright stupid) to not offer such, which is why I suspect they will. But it also makes good business sense to not release such a thing so soon to maximize sales of the full package as there will be a lot of fence-sitters who will buy the pack while it's on sale, but NOT buy the pack at all if they know there will be a race-only option coming later.
But even if they sell it for 2000 Zen, there will be complaints it's "too expensive for the lack of value".
~shrugs~
And it's even worse in Europe with the higher prices there.
I'm in a similar category as some of the earlier posters - 51 years old, and with a substantial amount of spare cash... not sure if I'd call myself a "whale", but I have spent somewhere around $1000 on the game - way more than most players, I guess, but it's actually less than $1 per hour of playing - which actually makes this quite cheap, compared to some of my other hobbies.
I like getting value for my money, and the fact is that this particular package just does not qualify for me. at 50 Euro, I might consider it, at 35 Euro I would buy it immediately - but there is just too little in the package that interest me to justify the current price. Artifacts? Sorry, got too many of those already. One 30 slot bag? Sorry, got more than enough bag space already. Fashion items? Sorry, does not fit with the RP image of my characters. Gemfinder enchant? Sorry, quite happy with my Greater Fey Blessing enchants. Extra character slot? Sorry, already have two or three unused ones. Race change token? Uh, no, thank you - I created my chars the way I visualize them for RP purposes - not for minmaxing.
The draconic enchants and the glyphs are just nice, nothing more...So, what does this leave ... the race itself, the Bahamut Regalia and the Ring of Dragonslaying. Sure, those are things I would be willing to pay for - but not what is being asked.
Sorry, PWE - I have given you quite a bit of money, but if you want more from me, you have to give me value in return.
I and others already have; it is not hard to show that the contents of the pack are not worth the cost. N.b. that (at least in my case) such calculations were made using the assumption that current Zen store prices are fair. Some might call that a shaky premise but it's in favor of the company so I went with it.
Again, many respondents had already pointed out that they (and I) don't want the pack. We want the Dragonborn. (I do want a race change token for one character. I'll be buying it with Z raised through the ZAX, burdensome as that may be.) This is the point. They took a bunch of stuff they couldn't have given away and bundled it with a highly-anticipated and desired item to inflate said item's price. Do you honestly think such behavior should be rewarded?
That remains to be seen. If we're lucky it will tank. If it does sell you can expect more of the same treatment in the future.
I agree with you. However I do have one pet peeve - and yes, I know it's personal problem for me but I simply have to voice it:
European people do NOT pay "higher prices". You pay the exact same price everyone else pays based on the current exchange rate for your currency against the United States Dollar.
In other words: your are not "paying higher prices", rather "it is costing you more". There IS a difference; you can thank your elected governments for the ridiculous tax laws they have imposed on you. It costs you more to buy stuff because of these extra taxes and I think it's also pretty bogus that you must always pay the tax, then plead your case for a refund when they shouldn't apply. I do know what you are saying, but get it right: You are paying *extra* taxes, hence your not paying "higher prices" - you are paying "higher cost".
Saying "higher prices" makes it sound like Cryptic (or any reseller) is intentionally raising your price just because you're in Eurozone.
//rant off
(sorry for the off-topic comment, but my teeth are getting worn down from grinding every time I see this phrase). LOL
ON TOPIC:
Wow. So your *opinion" is fact and everyone else who carries a different opinion is flat-wrong (such as my feeling for myself they are worth the cost)? Okay. You show your colors. You have my permission to take the last word on my argument against your perceived sense of reality.
PRO-TIP: When making such broad statements such as "it is not hard to show that the contents of the pack are not worth the cost." - it's carries a lot more credibility and weight if you add "from my view" or "in my opinion" or "the way I see it".
In my opinion Cryptic itself feels that the pack is overpriced. They show that by putting it on sale even before it is available (i.e not available until mod 4 is released).
In a previous post you said that you got the pack because it was on sale and that you would think twice before getting the pack at full price.
Correct. I'll do the $75, but not the $100. Which also is the very reason WHY it is on sale: to entice people with the same mindset to make the purchase, not because "even they think the price is too high". Anyone who actually understands business and marketing strategy understands this. it was the exact same strategy in January and February 2013: Hero and Guardian packs: not on sale, but rather offered two special things: guaranteed Closed-Beta access and (the no longer available) "Founder" in-game title.
I still use that title on every one of my characters to this day - even my temporary play-testing characters. TO ME that was part of the value of the Hero of the North package (I couldn't care any less about the Drow race myself, but I did want the Spider Mount).
Hence, and what I've been generally trying to express throughout this entire thread: Value and worth are different things to different people. Thus, if something is not valuable or have worth to you, does not mean everyone else feels the same way and neither of you are wrong about it. However, many of the commenters in this thread apparently believe their sense of value and worth is far superior than those who feel differently (at least this is how they're expressing these feelings).
After all, I have been described as having "more money than sense" because I actually find value and worth in this package - for myself (and have never debunked anyone else not finding the same worth or value). Okay, so be it. (Note: I've only debunked the argument that someone else's opinion is fact and my opinion is not).
I am amazed at how so many people actually describe (and perhaps genuinely feel) that the company is their enemy, or intentionally trying to screw them over, because they're "so greedy with all their cash-grabs". It's business. Cash-grabs are the end-game of all commercial businesses, this is no secret. Greed is not a bad word: you, dear players, are "greedy" for demanding the company lower the price of this pack because you're "too-cheap" to spend the money (perceived value and worth aside).
So however you describe the company what goes around comes around. It's a simple teet-for-tat scenario.
Fact: we all are "greedy", no one wants to spend more money than they have to, but most importantly: all this stuff is just PIXEL-CANDY and nothing more. hahahahah!
I think I've made my points pretty clearly and this argument is all academic at this point really. So hence forth I'll continue lurking and reading, but I'll let this comment be my own last word on it:
Whether you buy the pack because you find value in it, or you refuse to buy the back because, for you, there is not enough (or no) value in it: you're all in the right, no one is in the wrong here. Not even Cryptic.
Yeah, there is tax our governments put on it, but the company is then skimming a little on top from people in countries that do not pay the highest rate of VAT in the EU. That is an unfortunate fact and I hypothesize that the company is doing this for ease of admin (not uncommon unfortunately) rather than levying the correct additional amount for each individual country.
The pack is not worth the price to me. Simple as, much as I like the idea of a race-linked artifact (I do like that item) there are too many things in the pack I would not use.
I have bought the Guardian (best value pack in my opinion! still much enjoying it) and HoTN packs after saving for them - I intend to purchase the Feywild pack sometime shortly (still saving). The items I value from those packs the most are the companions and mounts and the starting weaponry items - plus the shedload of ADs! The fashion items and rings/bags were necessary to obtain those.
In the new pack, there is not the same attraction for me. The Dragonborn are not an interest to me and as said before, enchants and the rest also not desirable.
For someone wishing to roleplay a Dragonborn however will no doubt see a lot more value there (again, loving the artifact) and can make that value/price judgement call that most of us do when faced with something we want.
My opinion is still that the price is pitched too high based on my valuation of it's contents versus the precedents set by the previous packs - but that is my opinion and I will continue to support this game until there comes a point where I cannot afford it or disagree with the direction it's taking.
You'd be surprised. We are not talking 7 or 8, these are teenagers. And Pester Power should not be underestimated.
But I meant that the ploy of taking some poor quality stuff they couldn't give away, mixing it with some rare but highly desirable stuff of limited worth and charging three times the proper price in order to chump fools with more money than sense into buying it so they can belong to some sort of "Exclusive Club" and bask in the imagined glory, envy and admiration of their On-Line Peers is a ploy that should only work on 12 to 15 year olds. At best.
It should not work on mature adults with more sense than money. But we have middle-aged adults saying that they will buy it, and for the daftest of reasons. I could buy 1000 of these packs with no problem, but I am not going to as that would be a completely stupid waste of money.
I will not buy even one at this price, as that is only a marginally less stupid waste of money. You should never ask "Can I afford it?" Always ask "Is it worth it?"
If people actually see any perceived value in something like a title or the exclusivity of being publicly recognised as being mug enough to pay for an overpriced pack, it's not a Dragonborn Pack they need, it's treatment, quite frankly. I mean, "Founder" Title? What absolute, ego massaging nonsense. I find it hard to believe that a fully grown, mentally stable adult would set any store in that sort of thing at all. 8 to 12 years old? Yes, sort of like trading base ball cards and stuff; I get that as it is the sort of childish, juvenile thing little boys get into; but a tax-paying, grown-up adult who is allowed to vote?
LOL! My mind is boggling!
No offence to anyone, but that sort of thing really does not press my buzzer, so I'll pass.
~
I think the key issue on this one isn't so much the perceived value of the pack itself, but the equivalent value (or lack thereof) when comparing it to previous packs.
On a simple how-much-zen-would-this-cost scale, unless they're putting an extraordinarily high zen value on the race itself (since there are no prior Zen Store races, it's difficult to assess the zen cost), the current pack is simply overpriced for what you get.
While it's true that for some people the perceived value of the pack to them is high enough that they are willing to spend the price to get it, they are paying for something with a smaller actual value than previous offerings.
I was happy to purchase the $60 founder pack and the $60 feywild pack. Not only did they have a high perceived value to me, but they had an excellent real-money-to-zen-value ratio. They were both a good value to me and a good value overall, compared to buying similar parts piecemeal through the zen store. The same, unfortunately, does not apply to the current pack.
One single change would have made me purchase the pack in a heartbeat: if the bag was a character-bound-on-claim account-wide item, like so many of the items from previous packs. That would have both increased the perceived value to me (as I am always short on storage space on my many characters), and increased the actual zen-equivalent value of the pack sufficiently to make it a good deal overall.
But $75 is too much. With the other packs, I could justify the value, even if it wasn't a deal, I could be ok with it. But with the current offering, I am not going to pay. Throw in some more and I will pay $75 even. If they want to make $75 from us "whales" whatever, someone else can argue that. But this one isn't going to spend $75 on a class and an artifact, and a bag. The rest is garbage, everyone knows that. Give me some zen, ad, mounts (yes I have enough mounts, but make it "cool" and I feel it has value), companions (same) or whatever.
I have seen it said before. I have my CC ready, PWE/Cryptic. Give me an excuse to use it.
In general, I don't much care about in-game titles.
I liked the ones in City of Heroes, because virtually any achievement could be a title, and some of them were very funny. For Neverwinter, however, they are mostly pointless.
I have access to "Founder", but never use it, because all it does is advertise that I spent money at a specific time. To me, this isn't an achievement, and thus is nothing I should feel strongly enough about to need to proclaim it to any who see my character.
There is only one title I have available to me that I put any stock in, and I use it on every one of my characters now: Foundry Artifex. Why? Because I had to do a lot of actual work to EARN that title. It means something. It truly was an achievement, unlike my spending $60 at the end of beta, which was simply a combination of cash and timing.
So, no, I don't consider a title of any kind to be adding value to any purchased pack. It is an amusing added extra sometimes, but nothing to which I would assign any cash or zen value at all.
It's not relevant to the topic of the discussion, but out of simple curiosity: Would they actually allow you to buy multiples of the same pack?
You could only buy multiple if you have multiple accounts, the packs are usually 1 time only purchase per account
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
PRO TIP: Do not have this argument with someone from the philosophy department.
Every statement contains implicitly a huge number of qualifications, one of which almost always being that the statement is the speaker's opinion. The number of propositions that rise to the level of "fact" is vanishingly small (some would even say "zero"). "2+2=4", after all, requires the unspoken premise that we are using at least base 5 arithmetic; in base 4 the right answer is 10.
The real issue here is that (like many people) you are equivocating wildly on the definition of "opinion". An opinion is the conclusion of a cogent argument. You can't just handwave that away as if the speaker had said "I like vanilla more than chocolate". That would be a mere personal preference, which one can't (or is required to) defend. The issue under discussion has not been the subjective value of the Dragonborn Legend pack. As I (and others) have previously noted the value of the pack can be estimated taking the company-set Zen store prices as read, i.e. giving the company the benefit of the doubt. When adding up those prices the value of the pack does not pass muster, especially if the would-be purchaser then considers how many items in the pack he would actually buy if they weren't welded to the Dragonborn unlock. Be honest: how much of that pack would you have bought if all the pieces were sold separately? If the answer is "not much" then you may wish to consider that your decision to purchase was not sound.
That's not something you can just blow off as if it were a "cake versus pie" disagreement.